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Cloaked
06-26-2013, 05:34 PM
Here we go again.......


:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:Does this mean you are willing to help this guy or just be condescending? :confused:

Kweisner
06-26-2013, 06:27 PM
Thanks again for all of the time spent helping me out. I think I have everything I need on the way for this. Last question can I run a cranking battery as my start and a deep cycle for the house battery?

That is precisely what you should do! Also, consider this option as well--add a permanently mounted battery charger/maintainer on the house battery. I did so because at the end of the day my run back to the ramp is very short and doesn't provide enough time on the alternator to fully recharge the house batt. Once home, I just plug in to top off and then maintain a charge. I don't have the same worry for the start battery because it gets very little use and therefore needs little charge. Plus with the key in the ON position, both batteries are joined in parallel so the fully charged house batt is contributing during starting (I use the automatic relay method originally suggested by Diesel on this thread).

SILENTxNOISE
06-27-2013, 02:21 AM
Questions:

Will the factory terminal ends directly from the motor (currently connected to the start battery posts) have to be cut off to add a smaller connection to connect the positive to the Blue Sea switch and the negative to the ground bus?? I haven't located an illustration showing what needs to be done here.

Also, does the ground bus need to have the motor negative ran to it and then grounded to a different location (ex. run another ground from the bus back to the motor)? The illustrations are showing the motor negative connected to the ground bus, then the ground bus grounded to who knows where.

I'm not sure why this is confusing if these illustrations are so "simple".

bturner2
06-27-2013, 08:34 AM
Does this mean you are willing to help this guy or just be condescending? :confused:

Didn't mean to hurt feelings, ruffle feathers or shatter dreams. Was just waiting for the opposing posts on batteries to start up again. Sort of like the RTP versus MCX posts.

There are a ton of really good posts on batteries and installations here. The search engine on this site actually works really well (I really mean that, no sarcasm intended). A search on Battery Installation came back with quite a few good reference posts like these.......

On Optima Batteries and are they any good.....

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=32875&highlight=battery+installation

Optima batteries - which one and what type to go with.....

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=46928&highlight=battery+installation

My dual battery installation thread.....

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=29889&highlight=battery+installation

Thralls battery installation thread (a lot of good information in here)....

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=33981&highlight=battery+installation

Thread on grounding. JimN explains in detail about grounding and references site that provides great detail on the subject....

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=31078&highlight=battery+installation

This is just on the first two pages. Hope these help a bit more than my original post.....

LTRGUY261
06-27-2013, 01:40 PM
Thanks for all the advice Cloaked and Bturner2, I really appreciate it.

SILENTxNOISE
06-27-2013, 03:54 PM
Ok, I guess I could ask this more simply..

Is it required to run NEW pos and neg cables from the motor to the blue sea switch and ground bus?

bturner2
06-28-2013, 07:57 AM
If your amperage draw or cable run isn't changing then there should be no need to swap anything out. I didn't install new but I did end up cutting the ends off, adjusted cable lengths and soldered new ends on to clean up the existing sloppy installation. I also purchased new marine grade cable and made all the cables to connect the battery grounds and connections to the bus bars and battery/switch/isolator connections.

Making the cables and installing new cable connectors is really pretty easy with a torch and some solder. The only ones that made me nervous were the ones I had to do in the boat. For those I covered all the surrounding areas with wet towels to protect against any chance of getting something too hot with the torch.

As far as installing a switch to the solution..... I like having the switch. I don't get out to my boat everyday and it sits on a Shorestation at my brother in laws house about 20 miles away. As part of our departure routine we always turn off the power. That way I'm sure nothing was left on and it also provides a little more theft security (one more thing for someone to figure out before driving off with the boat).

SILENTxNOISE
06-28-2013, 04:19 PM
Thanks, bturner2! I was thinking of making my own cables as well, but from a quick google search, the crimper for a 2ga wire was like $60! But soldering is a great idea too and is pretty easy..

I think I have a handle on how I'm going to do this now! Thanks for the help!

bturner2
06-28-2013, 06:59 PM
When I did mine I twisted the exposed wire then tinned the wire. I then heated the new cable end and put a good amount of solder in it. With the cable end still hot I placed the tinned cable in the cable end while the solder was still molten. I was careful to ensure I measured the stripped portion for the wire so that it got good penetration into the cable end. After it cooled I used heat shrink tubing to finish the connection. I thought they turned out real good and are not going to come apart. There's a ton of opinions on crimping versus solder but from my perspective I can't see how you can get a much better connection if you follow the procedure I did.

I'm on my fifth season with this set up and is rock solid. It's easy to take apart and reinstall and you don't have to worry about anything coming apart.

SILENTxNOISE
07-04-2013, 01:33 PM
Edit: Nevermind.. I just piggy-backed the neg terminals and didn't use the common bus at all.

Thanks for all the great info!!

One other question.. What size do you recommend for the common bus bar for the ground?

I have a 150amp 1/4inch stud bar but it seem like its way too small for this application...

Suggestions?

bturner2
07-05-2013, 11:06 AM
You're past me on this one but I tend to error on the side that bigger is better when it comes to power and grounding.

Traxx822
07-05-2013, 11:08 AM
Hey just wanted to say thanks to the guys in this thread that helped me with my head unit wiring issue. The noise is gone. Everything sounds perfect. No matter what battery I have it set to.

LTRGUY261
07-08-2013, 12:06 PM
I also wanted to say thanks to the folks on this thread. Between here and the other forum I frequent I was able to wire in the second battery and BW Isolator relay. I additionally wired in a fuse panel from the second battery to move some of my accessories to. Lastly wired in an amp and got some wires up into my tower (a Skylon Swoop, this was not easy) and mounted our tower speakers. So thanks again to everyone for their inputs, write ups, and advice, it was all very helpful.

Dweibel
09-24-2013, 12:04 PM
I have a 2010 boat, just added a stereo setup with about an extra 1000 watts and just started having battery issues running hte stereo over 15 minutes with the boat off. Was thinking of replacing one battery with a higher powered one? Anybody have thoughts or suggestions, or should I just get two new regular batteries, as they are 3 years / 300 hours old

bturner2
09-24-2013, 12:53 PM
I like to match the batteries. I've had good luck with Optima Blue tops however there is a lot of conversation on their performance/reliability on this board. Neither of which I've had the slightest issue with (just completing my fifth season and still look to be going strong).

Many opt to stick with conventional lead/acid batteries and go big. If you do decide to go AGM be aware of the charging requirements which will most likely mean having to replace the charger you may have inherited from Grandpa with an advanced and somewhat expensive new charger..... :D

On lead/acid I've heard most people recommending Interstate. On AGM I've heard Deka and Odyessey come up quite a bit.

MLA
09-24-2013, 03:29 PM
I have a 2010 boat, just added a stereo setup with about an extra 1000 watts and just started having battery issues running hte stereo over 15 minutes with the boat off. Was thinking of replacing one battery with a higher powered one? Anybody have thoughts or suggestions, or should I just get two new regular batteries, as they are 3 years / 300 hours old

I would have them tested. After three years, you are on borrowed time IMO. Next, if you have a 2 batteries and both are going dead after playing the stereo at anchor, then you need to look into how the battery system is configured. If you dont have a dual battery setup, I would suggest doing one. This would allow you to isolate a battery for restarting the engine after playing the stereo at anchor.

Timdog145
11-03-2013, 06:57 PM
I have been reading a lot on this thread about how to wire a second battery and I have figured out how I want to wire it. Does anyone have a suggestion on how to secure as second battery in the bow of an 89 Prostar 190?

JimN
11-03-2013, 07:02 PM
I have been reading a lot on this thread about how to wire a second battery and I have figured out how I want to wire it. Does anyone have a suggestion on how to secure as second battery in the bow of an 89 Prostar 190?

Yeah- don't put it in the bow. You want the cabling to the first battery and alternator to be as short as possible and placing it in the bow doesn't allow that to happen.

Cloaked
11-03-2013, 07:16 PM
I have been reading a lot on this thread about how to wire a second battery and I have figured out how I want to wire it. Does anyone have a suggestion on how to secure as second battery in the bow of an 89 Prostar 190?I have done this in previous closed bows (83, 85, 93 models) similar to the 89.

Your machine has a floor / on stringers throughout up to the point of where the hull vees into the bow configuration.

On the 93 (most recent) I bought a battery box and secured it to the floor with the mounting brackets that come with the box. Think I paid $12 - 15 for the box, lid, and tie-downs. Just secure the brackets to the floor with #10 or so wood screws, wedging the box (not forcing anything) into the vee configuration and secure it there. I used an old life jacket strap with a buckle instead of the oem strap with friction tightener. Much easier to work with that when accessing and egressing the box.

This will leave plenty of room under the bow for other items. I moved the start battery from the rear fuel cell compartment and placed the start battery under the passenger seat, then measured out my wiring configuration. Went to Genuinedealz dot com for prefabricated tinned wire, end connectors, shrink. They do a great job and ship USPS 'if it fits it ships' and my $450 worth of wire cost $12 and some change to ship. No wire weight to consider for shipping.



.

Timdog145
11-03-2013, 09:24 PM
JimN: Where would you recommend mounting battery 2? battery 1 is under the spotter's seat so the bow is the closest place to it, and as far as I can tell it is the only place I can get it to fit. under the back seat is not an option on the '89.
And Cloaked: pardon my ignorance because I am a brand new Mastercraft owner. Can I screw into the floor into the bow anywhere? What material is the deck made of under the carpet? The bow storage area is the only place I can find to fit the battery, and it would be somewhat easier to wire in and isolator because of its proximity to the original battery under the spotter's seat. Did you make it so the whole battery box is removable so you dont have to lift the battery out of the box?

Cloaked
11-03-2013, 09:34 PM
JimN: Where would you recommend mounting battery 2? battery 1 is under the spotter's seat so the bow is the closest place to it, and as far as I can tell it is the only place I can get it to fit. under the back seat is not an option on the '89.
And Cloaked: pardon my ignorance because I am a brand new Mastercraft owner. Can I screw into the floor into the bow anywhere? What material is the deck made of under the carpet? The bow storage area is the only place I can find to fit the battery, and it would be somewhat easier to wire in and isolator because of its proximity to the original battery under the spotter's seat. Did you make it so the whole battery box is removable so you dont have to lift the battery out of the box?
Under the passenger seat is your best bet for the start battery, but your original post referenced only a second auxiliary battery.

The floor deck does not extend beyond the floor surface, so don't go running drywall screws (:D) into the hull. Once you leave the floor area, that's where it stops. Go back and carefully read what I described as the area of where I mounted mine. It's in the floor but adjacent to the bow/hull. You can screw most anywhere on the floor surface but don't get up on the sides. That's all hull and nothing but water on the other side... use extra caution before drilling or screwing anything anywhere... think it through.....

The floor is a typical wood product with maybe a coat of epoxy resin, or similar treatment / material. It will hold a wood screw.

Wire the isolation switch wherever is practical to obtain the shortest wire run (cost effective) and what is convenient to you for reaching the switch. Mine is about 6" too far forward so I have to reach an extra grunt to get to it. .

The battery box sits on the floor, period. There are two small brackets that mount to the floor and you set the box in between them, running the strap through the brackets and under the box, then across the top of the box. Everything is portable.

You're on the right track. I too used an isolation switch but had I to do it again, I'd go with what the original poster used (less wire, cost effective). Simple and effective. However there is nothing wrong with using a switch.

Using a vented battery box will allow you to make all of your connections within the box (with lid on), where required. Plan for your fusing as well. I used terminal block fuses and the box/lid will allow with a little room to spare.

Work in progress below (that is a center, interior, vertical kick panel that I have for mounting the switch, etc, not a hull area)

.

Timdog145
11-03-2013, 11:30 PM
Cloaked,
Thanks for all of the great info. I certainly understand the concept of screwing into the flat floor area vs the sloped hull area of the bow. I just wasn't familiar with the construction of the flat floor area and how it would be affected by screwing into it. And you answered my question on the battery box. I know now that when it comes to removing the battery for replacement/ winterizing I would be able to slide the box out in order to remove the battery and it wouldnt be permanently fixed to the floor.
Great info on a source for the cables as well.
My most significant concern was being able to screw into the flat (non-hull) floor area.
As I said, I am a brand new first time owner and you can expect to see a lot of questions from me all over Team Talk.

Thanks again for your help.
Tim

imyourmaster
11-19-2013, 01:37 PM
Can anyone shed light on a dual battery setup in a 2008 X2? I have two batteries which are not paralleled from what I can tell. One battery has cables marked "house" connected to it and the second battery has cables marked "starter" connected to it. These cables run to a 3 way blue sea battery selector switch (off/on/combine). When in the "on" position both batteries are live but isolated. So...why does my stereo stop playing if I disconnect the "starter" battery? This does not make sense to me...what am I missing?

Thanks!

Quinten
11-19-2013, 02:41 PM
Can anyone shed light on a dual battery setup in a 2008 X2? I have two batteries which are not paralleled from what I can tell. One battery has cables marked "house" connected to it and the second battery has cables marked "starter" connected to it. These cables run to a 3 way blue sea battery selector switch (off/on/combine). When in the "on" position both batteries are live but isolated. So...why does my stereo stop playing if I disconnect the "house" battery? This does not make sense to me...what am I missing?

Thanks!

From what I know about is that the house battery is for stereo and accesoirs etc. And the starter is for starting the engine so if you play to long on the stereo. Than you are abble to start the boat again.

imyourmaster
11-19-2013, 04:09 PM
Sorry guys...I had to edit my original post. I had originally asked why my stereo would stop playing when I disconnect the "house" battery. What I meant to say was when I disconnect the "starter" battery.

Quinten
11-21-2013, 04:07 AM
Sorry guys...I had to edit my original post. I had originally asked why my stereo would stop playing when I disconnect the "house" battery. What I meant to say was when I disconnect the "starter" battery.

Sorry can't help with that. Would to know the answer to.
Never tryed its with a 2012 x2.

Kweisner
11-21-2013, 07:35 AM
Sorry guys...I had to edit my original post. I had originally asked why my stereo would stop playing when I disconnect the "house" battery. What I meant to say was when I disconnect the "starter" battery.

Could it be that one of the 12v trigger leads is commected to the starter batt circuit? IOW, house batt is providing the consumptive power for the head unt and amplifiers, but the on/off trigger is tied out to the other batt and when disconnected, there's no trigger voltage.

imyourmaster
11-27-2013, 08:52 AM
Thanks for your reply! It made me think about the possibility...However, my 12v trigger lead runs directly from the head unit to the amplifiers. For whatever reason may be, the head unit loses power when I disconnect either of the house or starter battery. I will talk to the guys at Blue Sea today. It could be that the connections on the back of the battery selector switch are wrong.

mgs96ps
11-27-2013, 02:01 PM
Sorry to tread jack...but could someone point me to a post that I was reading a couple weeks ago about best battery tender/ battery charger for winter? Thought I would ask here instead of start new post.

_fng_
02-23-2014, 08:55 PM
So last weekend I added the blue seas add a battery system with a starting and deep cell battery. Today we were sitting listening for music for approx 1.5 hrs and when I tried to start the boat it took 3-4 turns to get it to turn over. I would have thought the relay would have transitioned to the starting battery automatically without need for a few turns. Does this mean I did not install it correctly? Any trouble-shooting advice before I call blue seas tomorrow?

fyi, I used 2 gauge wire for all set up and 100 amp fuse for relay (as described in the instructions), i only have a sub and head unit powering 4 speakers. As soon as I started the boat, pp was reading 13.2V and 11.7V with engine off.

Thanks for any help.

MLA
02-23-2014, 09:00 PM
Does this mean I did not install it correctly? Any trouble-shooting advice before I call blue seas tomorrow

I think so. Sounds like some of the house loads are still wired to the cranking battery. With the switch alone, your house loads should be isolated from the cranking. The ACR is mainly there to allow the house banks to receive a charge when the engine is running.

Cloaked
02-23-2014, 09:02 PM
I think so. Sounds like some of the house loads are still wired to the cranking battery. With the switch alone, your house loads should be isolated from the cranking. The ACR is mainly there to allow the house banks to receive a charge when the engine is running.
+1 ......

Or the switch/ACR is not wired correctly. Blue Seas has a good diagram on their site as to the proper schematic.
.

_fng_
02-23-2014, 09:19 PM
Forgive my ignorance but for "house loads" (top Left connection as shown on pdf below), all I have hooked up to the perko switch is my sub amp. What should be set up to the house loads connection? My single battery set up was 2awg from the engine ground and to the starter. Should there be more to the "house loads" connection other than the sub amp?

side note, both batteries read 12.7x on volt meter with engine off (without putting on trickle charger).

Thanks a lot for helping me out!

http://assets.bluesea.com/files/resources/instructions/990310020.pdf

Cloaked
02-23-2014, 09:30 PM
Forgive my ignorance but for "house loads" (top Left connection as shown on pdf below), all I have hooked up to the perko switch is my sub amp. What should be set up to the house loads connection? My single battery set up was 2awg from the engine ground and to the starter. Should there be more to the "house loads" connection other than the sub amp?

side note, both batteries read 12.7x on volt meter with engine off (without putting on trickle charger).

Thanks a lot for helping me out!

http://assets.bluesea.com/files/resources/instructions/990310020.pdfThat is the correct schematic.

Everything should be on house load, cranking battery to only the engine.

However, you seem to have the big draws on the house battery and for only 1.5 hours, I'd think it should support the draw. But that is not the issue....

Your boat hesitated a few turns before it fully engaged?? correct?

The hesitation may have been a combined bank (a sink or drop of unequal charge or banks). So if you have the Perko switch wired as a closed circuit while the engine is off, you are pulling from both banks and the load may have been the culprit until the banks were closer to an equal state.

I hope this makes sense. I'm trying not to intertwine issues.

Do you have your system wired like the diagram? Isolator wired to the ignition switch correctly? The isolator should be on the same ignition switch terminal as the purple wire IIRC.

Sitting still, the isolator should fail open, isolating the batteries. When you crank, the ignition switch commands the start battery ("start" position terminal) to engage the starter. The isolator then fails closed (as the switch returns to the 'on' position) and combines the banks for charging while underway. When the ignition is off or accessory position (purple wire on the igniton is where the isolator wire should be), the isolator is open with isolation. Back to full circle, all loads should be on the house battery, leaving the start battery for the obvious.

_fng_
02-23-2014, 09:47 PM
Your boat hesitated a few turns before it fully engaged?? correct?

Correct

The hesitation may have been a combined bank (a sink or drop of unequal charge or banks). So if you have the Perko switch wired as a closed circuit while the engine is off, you are pulling from both banks and the load may have been the culprit until the banks were closer to an equal state.

Any way to determine if the circuit is closed? For the next question, yes it is wired exactly per the diagram (house load being sub amp)

Do you have your system wired like the diagram?

Yes


A buddy who used to do car stereo installations looked over my set up and said it looked good but he admitted he hadn't seen this system before.

Thanks!

Cloaked
02-23-2014, 09:51 PM
A buddy who used to do car stereo installations looked over my set up and said it looked good but he admitted he hadn't seen this system before.

Thanks!The isolator switch has a green light on it. It should blink when the switch is failed closed. It should be a steady green when failed open. There is an accessory small LED light that you can purchase and place on the dash if you feel the need to monitor the isolator at any time. I do not have it but it's available.

Make sure you have the isolator wired properly to the ignition switch for proper commands to the isolator.

.

_fng_
02-23-2014, 09:53 PM
Do you have your system wired like the diagram? Isolator wired to the ignition switch correctly? The isolator should be on the same ignition switch terminal as the purple wire IIRC.

Sitting still, the isolator should fail open, isolating the batteries. When you crank, the ignition switch commands the start battery ("start" position terminal) to engage the starter. The isolator then fails closed (as the switch returns to the 'on' position) and combines the banks for charging while underway. When the ignition is off or accessory position (purple wire on the igniton is where the isolator wire should be), the isolator is open with isolation. Back to full circle, all loads should be on the house battery, leaving the start battery for the obvious.

At the batteries, I have nothing other than the engine power, engine ground, and sub amp power/ground. Should I do something with the ignition switch wiring? Side note, I rewired PP power to ignition switch to help with voltage drop from PP.

_fng_
02-23-2014, 09:54 PM
The isolator switch has a green light on it. It should blink when the switch is failed closed. It should be a steady green when failed open.

.

As it was "optional" I did not install this part of the diagram. Eureka??

Cloaked
02-23-2014, 10:03 PM
At the batteries, I have nothing other than the engine power, engine ground, and sub amp power/ground. Should I do something with the ignition switch wiring? Side note, I rewired PP power to ignition switch to help with voltage drop from PP.Makes more sense now, knowing you have manual switching. Thus the ignition switch wiring has no bearing since you switch manually with the Perko. PP needs power from somewhere. :) I wired my PP to the tachometer. The isolation does what you tell it to do with a manual turn. I hope I am reading this correctly as you describe.

My reference to the isolator switch is a moot point. You are the isolator with no purple wire.. :D

As it was "optional" I did not install this part of the diagram. Eureka??No big deal other than automation and convenience. What truly was optional was the Perko switch. I'd have installed the isolator and left off the Perko. You are manually controlling the banks but I am not certain how you are closing the loop during operation for charging both banks.

_fng_
02-23-2014, 10:15 PM
Makes more sense now, knowing you have manual switching. Thus the ignition switch wiring has no bearing since you switch manually with the Perko. PP needs power from somewhere. :) I wired my PP to the tachometer, but ultimately, that comes through the ignition switch. The isolator does what you tell it to do with a manual turn. I hope I am reading this correctly as you describe.

My reference to the isolator switch is a moot point. You are the isolator with no purple wire.. :D

No big deal other than automation and convenience. What truly was optional was the Perko switch. I'd have installed the isolator and left off the Perko. You are manually controlling the banks but I am not certain how you are closing the loop during operation for charging both banks.

PP was set up to tach originally but voltage dropped too much (1.5v) with key on, PP customer service recommended rewiring purple wire from tach to ignition switch and run another ground wire directly from negative battery terminal.

No, I'm not manually controlling the banks. The perko switch that I have has only "on" and "off" not like the 1/2/off I've seen. Since, I do not manually switch from battery 1 or 2 then a 16awg to ignition switch is next move? I can do that!

Cloaked
02-23-2014, 10:18 PM
PP was set up to tach originally but voltage dropped too much (1.5v) with key on, PP customer service recommended rewiring purple wire from tach to ignition switch and run another ground wire directly from negative battery terminal.

No, I'm not manually controlling the banks. The perko switch that I have has only "on" and "off" not like the 1/2/off I've seen. Since, I do not manually switch from battery 1 or 2 then a 16awg to ignition switch is next move? I can do that!Correct. So now make sure you wire the ignition switch properly. I was a bit baffled but It's clear now.. :)

Purple should go to accessory, causing the isolator to fail open when you switch there.


.

MLA
02-23-2014, 10:24 PM
Forgive my ignorance but for "house loads" (top Left connection as shown on pdf below), all I have hooked up to the perko switch is my sub amp. What should be set up to the house loads connection? My single battery set up was 2awg from the engine ground and to the starter. Should there be more to the "house loads" connection other than the sub amp?

side note, both batteries read 12.7x on volt meter with engine off (without putting on trickle charger).

Thanks a lot for helping me out!

http://assets.bluesea.com/files/resources/instructions/990310020.pdf

A "house load" is anything you want to run when the engine is off and have it draw off the newly installed "house bank"

Your head-unit should also be connected house bank. Odd are, its drawing off the cranking as it originally was.

MLA
02-23-2014, 10:30 PM
At the batteries, I have nothing other than the engine power, engine ground, and sub amp power/ground. Should I do something with the ignition switch wiring? Side note, I rewired PP power to ignition switch to help with voltage drop from PP.

The only cables connected directly to the battery B+ posts are the cables going to the #1b and #2b posts and the auto bilge.

Nothing needs to be done to the key switch when installing the add-a-battery

_fng_
02-23-2014, 10:30 PM
A "house load" is anything you want to run when the engine is off and have it draw off the newly installed "house bank"

Your head-unit should also be connected house bank. Odd are, its drawing off the cranking as it originally was.

Thanks for the help guys! If I could buy you guys a beer, I would!

MLA
02-23-2014, 10:33 PM
As it was "optional" I did not install this part of the diagram. Eureka??

You do need to wire up the SI terminal. I dont think thats your issue.

_fng_
02-23-2014, 10:36 PM
You do need to wire up the SI terminal. I dont think thats your issue.

Do you mean do not need to wire SI terminal? In your previous post you say that I don't need to mess with ignition switch. Do you think the head unit connected to cranking battery could draw enough load to cause a hesitation in starting?

My next step will be running a SI to the ignition to see if it reduces the hesitation when starting...other than that, I may take it somewhere.

Here is what mine looks like.

MLA
02-23-2014, 10:47 PM
You do need to wire up the SI terminal. I dont think thats your issue.

Sorry, need to make an edit here! I left out NOT

You DO NOT need to wire the SI terminal. its getting late, my eyes are tired and im watching the race that should have already been run 8p

kblanch09
03-10-2014, 12:38 PM
Does the isolated relay allow you to always be able to start the engine even if the aux battery is dead?

Kweisner
03-10-2014, 05:24 PM
^ If you are referring to the original setup posted by Diesel on page 1, then yes, that is the basic premise. If you read back in this thread you will see there are those folks that say once you join the drained AUX/house battery with the starter battery, there is a chance that the starter batt will be drained by the house batt. Technically this is true.

Practically speaking, the period of time between when the batteries are coupled and the starter is engaged is going to be less than a second or two, so I don't know if this is a legit concern. I have the isolator setup, and so far, I've never had a starting issue and I enjoy not worrying about switch positions, my memory, etc.

chooverton
04-04-2014, 06:59 PM
I am finally going to install the SR200 i have had sitting in the garage for 6 months this weekend. Quick question, i have searched all over and couldn't find an answer, although i bet it is here. What Gauge wire do i need for the non-battery connections? Would some 12 GA primary wire work for both the ignition and ground wire (small terminals). I am using 0 gauge for the battery cable. May be be overkill but i got a deal on it. Thanks

Cloaked
04-04-2014, 07:53 PM
I am finally going to install the SR200 i have had sitting in the garage for 6 months this weekend. Quick question, i have searched all over and couldn't find an answer, although i bet it is here. What Gauge wire do i need for the non-battery connections? Would some 12 GA primary wire work for both the ignition and ground wire (small terminals). I am using 0 gauge for the battery cable. May be be overkill but i got a deal on it. ThanksIf 12 AWG is what you have at no extra cost, it will work. I understand that you're wiring the relay to the ignition...

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wilsonck
06-22-2014, 03:40 PM
I have a 2002 Prostar 209 and I have the blue Seas 9001e switch( 4 position OFF, 1, 2 or 1+2) that I wanted to install. My problem seems to be around the current positive pole of the single battery that was there.

I took the amp connections off the starter battery and moved to the house battery. I then had a positive cable from each battery to the switch and a ground cable between the negative posts on each battery. The only thing remaining was to move something from the start battery to the 1+2 post on the switch.

There are 2 cables remaining from the original setup on the positive post of my battery. One cable goes to the starter and has the regular battery post connector on it and the other one looks to go to the fuse box/ignition under the dash.

Are both of these cables supposed to go to common post? If so, then it appears that I need to cut off the regular battery post connector to put on a ring connector(I don't particularly want to do this)

Cloaked
06-22-2014, 06:13 PM
The answer to your question lies within this thread. Read back several posts. There are several schematics for reference.

Your last statement doesn't make sense. If you have this thing wired up to this extent, why would you have the start cable still hanging loose? That cable should leave the switch to the starter. I feel certain that you know what you have done but I am not sure I understand... :D Don't cut anything just yet...

Theoretically, everything from the house battery should be terminated from a hot bus bar and everything should be grounded to a ground bus terminal.

However, if you wire your switch like has been previously discussed throughout this thread and according to the schematic, you should be ready for lift off.

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wilsonck
06-22-2014, 08:55 PM
well, in answer to your question, I had the cables connected to the switch, but not to the + post on the batteries yet. I was just laying things out to understand it all and when I got to what needed to go to the 1+2 or the common connection, that is where I started looking at the 2 cables left on the battery and figured that the one that goes to the starter had to go to the common post.... and I didn't want to cut any ends off.

I have read through the thread and looked at a bunch of schematics. But for some reason, the last step isn't clicking yet.

Cloaked
06-22-2014, 09:03 PM
well, in answer to your question, I had the cables connected to the switch, but not to the + post on the batteries yet. I was just laying things out to understand it all and when I got to what needed to go to the 1+2 or the common connection, that is where I started looking at the 2 cables left on the battery and figured that the one that goes to the starter had to go to the common post.... and I didn't want to cut any ends off.

I have read through the thread and looked at a bunch of schematics. But for some reason, the last step isn't clicking yet.Look at the schematic closely.

The + cable from battery goes to a switch terminal (you'll have to determine). That allows isolation with different settings (depending on the switch setting and the ignition position). From the + terminal on the switch, that goes to the start battery. When you use the switch to prepare for liftoff, that setting will connect the battery to the starter as commanded by the ignition position (purple wire). I still do not fully understand your 'last step' dilemma. Wire it like the schematic shows and go from there. The schematic does not allow for any loose cables...

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Cloaked
06-22-2014, 09:17 PM
You will have two hot cables coming from each battery, going to two different locations (each). You also need a fuse for each hot near each + battery. I used terminal post fuses.

Cloaked
06-22-2014, 09:24 PM
I think you can now see the benefit of the KISS principle. An isolation switch as the original poster stated is really all you need. The bank switch only makes it more complicated and expensive. Were I to do it again, I'd not mess with the bank switch.

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wilsonck
06-22-2014, 10:38 PM
My last step, is what you show with the "hot from Terminal to starter" cable above. I will need to cut the battery post end off the existing wire and put on one of the O-ring connectors to connect it to the switch.

With the kit that I bought, I don't have the isolation switch(black box) that you show.

Thanks for the info. I think I need to read the thread again to see if I will use this switch or do it a different way.

Kweisner
06-23-2014, 10:49 AM
I think you can now see the benefit of the KISS principle. An isolation switch as the original poster stated is really all you need. The bank switch only makes it more complicated and expensive. Were I to do it again, I'd not mess with the bank switch.

Well said. I did the original install and it's been completely "no-touch" foolproof. Never have to think about it (unless of course at some point the relay fails, in which case the ONLY downside is the house/stereo battery doesn't get charged by the alternator). Cheaper too.

paintpollz
11-08-2014, 01:35 PM
OK I need the dual batt setup. I just bought a 197 with 1500w of amps and one battery, trouble waiting to happen. What I've gotten from this thread:

-use the BW isolator. KISS. there will be other people driving this boat, I do not want to have to go thru battery tutorials with them.

-you should use two of the same batteries, although it would be nice to have a deep cycle as the house battery.

-there will be unavoidable strain on the alternator while charging the two batteries when the boat is running. boo hoo.

Question:

-Do I need to rewire the stereo switch to the house batt so that the amps & stereo turn on when flipping the stereo switch, and all pull from the house batt? Otherwise, if I just connect the amps to the house batt, won't the stereo still draw from the starting batt when the key is in the off position?

-When running a dual battery setup in this manner, is it wise to replace the alternator ever so often as preventative maintenance insurance? No one wants to get stranded........

Thanks

CantRepeat
11-08-2014, 02:05 PM
Keep everything wired as you currently have it. Add the second battery and put the starter and only the starter on it. Your current battery becomes your house battery and the new one becomes your starter battery.

Find out what your current alternator amp rating is. You may need to upgrade that and you might want to upgrade your alternator to battery wire as well.

With the correct amp rated alternator you should not need to replace it as a preventive maintenance measure.

paintpollz
11-08-2014, 02:44 PM
Keep everything wired as you currently have it. Add the second battery and put the starter and only the starter on it. Your current battery becomes your house battery and the new one becomes your starter battery.

Find out what your current alternator amp rating is. You may need to upgrade that and you might want to upgrade your alternator to battery wire as well.

With the correct amp rated alternator you should not need to replace it as a preventive maintenance measure.

Excellent explanation. Thank you:)

paintpollz
11-08-2014, 05:03 PM
Question on the isolator, I'm just trying to get the science down. Say I had one of these installed, and someone left the stereo on all night, and the main/house battery completely drains. Theoretically, there wouldn't be any power in the main/house battery to close the isolator and connect the two batteries for charge. So this is the primary reason why we connect the starter to the second battery? Once the engine fires, power draws from the second battery to the main/house battery, closes the isolator, and then the alternator starts charging both batts, correct?

JimN
11-08-2014, 05:21 PM
OK I need the dual batt setup. I just bought a 197 with 1500w of amps and one battery, trouble waiting to happen. What I've gotten from this thread:

-use the BW isolator. KISS. there will be other people driving this boat, I do not want to have to go thru battery tutorials with them.

-you should use two of the same batteries, although it would be nice to have a deep cycle as the house battery.

-there will be unavoidable strain on the alternator while charging the two batteries when the boat is running. boo hoo.

Question:

-Do I need to rewire the stereo switch to the house batt so that the amps & stereo turn on when flipping the stereo switch, and all pull from the house batt? Otherwise, if I just connect the amps to the house batt, won't the stereo still draw from the starting batt when the key is in the off position?

-When running a dual battery setup in this manner, is it wise to replace the alternator ever so often as preventative maintenance insurance? No one wants to get stranded........

Thanks

Do you define 'house battery', as "the one used for the boat's electronics and engine"? You want a cranking battery for the engine, if the engine's electronics will be sharing the battery used for cranking and if you want to use deep cycle for the audio, that's fine, but you WILL need a heavy duty alternator if you expect your batteries to recharge and be able to supply all of the other electronics with the proper voltage and current. If you were to use a separate battery for cranking and ONLY for cranking, a deep cycle would work, but if you expect to run the battery voltage down below 10VDC, you're not using them according to their design. 'Deep cycle' doesn't mean "deplete them so they're stone dead".

How loudly do you play the stereo, do you crank it while the engine is off, at idle, or at/near WOT and what other accessories would be used at a given time? Those will determine the demands on the batteries and charging system. The charging system must be designed for "worst case" scenarios if it's expected to survive and operate correctly.

Why would you "replace the alternator every so often as preventative maintenance insurance", rather than just design the system correctly in the first place?

If you use a heavy duty alternator, you'll need to use a heavier charging wire, too.

List the stereo equipment by brand and model, too.

Kweisner
11-08-2014, 09:04 PM
When you turn the key, both batteries are joined by the isolator relay so which one is drained is not a factor. Essentially they become one battery at that moment so the "good" battery energizes the relay unless I am mistaken.

As for the alternator, I do not know enough about electrical engineering to be an authority. That said, the point of the isolator is to protect the starting battery and therefore it should typically remain at full charge capacity. Assuming the house/accessory battery were completely drained, when joined you'd really only be charging the depleted battery off the alternator (plus a little to top off the starting battery). I have been using the classic dual battery setup as originally described by Diesel in this thread and have never had any kind of issue getting started, charging and operating the stereo/amps/accessories while floating.

CantRepeat
11-09-2014, 08:11 AM
I wouldn't use an isolator. I'd suggest a VSR.

https://www.bluesea.com/products/7610/SI-ACR_Automatic_Charging_Relay_-_12_24V_DC_120A

paintpollz
11-09-2014, 09:52 AM
Do you define 'house battery', as "the one used for the boat's electronics and engine"? You want a cranking battery for the engine, if the engine's electronics will be sharing the battery used for cranking and if you want to use deep cycle for the audio, that's fine, but you WILL need a heavy duty alternator if you expect your batteries to recharge and be able to supply all of the other electronics with the proper voltage and current. If you were to use a separate battery for cranking and ONLY for cranking, a deep cycle would work, but if you expect to run the battery voltage down below 10VDC, you're not using them according to their design. 'Deep cycle' doesn't mean "deplete them so they're stone dead".

Yes that is my definition of a hous/aux batt. The idea is not to deplete them, I was just throwing out a what if scenario

How loudly do you play the stereo, do you crank it while the engine is off, at idle, or at/near WOT and what other accessories would be used at a given time? Those will determine the demands on the batteries and charging system. The charging system must be designed for "worst case" scenarios if it's expected to survive and operate correctly.

Correct, I'm aware that I will need a new alternator

Why would you "replace the alternator every so often as preventative maintenance insurance", rather than just design the system correctly in the first place?

If you use a heavy duty alternator, you'll need to use a heavier charging wire, too.

List the stereo equipment by brand and model, too.

My understanding of charging systems is limited. Now that I know that I can purchase a high output alternator designed for a system like this, I will go that route.

CantRepeat
11-09-2014, 10:47 AM
Yes that is my definition of a hous/aux batt. The idea is not to deplete them, I was just throwing out a what if scenario



Correct, I'm aware that I will need a new alternator



My understanding of charging systems is limited. Now that I know that I can purchase a high output alternator designed for a system like this, I will go that route.

http://www.onallcylinders.com/2012/10/17/how-to-choose-an-alternator/

paintpollz
11-09-2014, 10:59 AM
http://www.onallcylinders.com/2012/10/17/how-to-choose-an-alternator/

Yup, read that article, thanks Tim. Now in the hunt for the product # for an HO alt to fit this motor. I'll likely install the alt and then have an automotive shop around me upgrade the big 3.

JimN
11-09-2014, 12:00 PM
Yes that is my definition of a hous/aux batt. The idea is not to deplete them, I was just throwing out a what if scenario



Correct, I'm aware that I will need a new alternator

My understanding of charging systems is limited. Now that I know that I can purchase a high output alternator designed for a system like this, I will go that route.

In the '90s and into the early 2000s, people who competed in IASCA and other car stereo "sound off" competitions were running a lot more power than your boat, often in small imported cars. The OEM alternators were often good for 65A, maybe. Your boat's alternator is probably good for 75A and in general operation, there's about 20% of safety margin, so figure that it's using about 50A-60A on a regular basis. What the competitors or installers would do is fabricate a bracket and mount a second alternator, completely isolated from the one that runs the car. This way, the starting batter is never affected by the audio system and vice versa. In this configuration, you shouldn't have any problem charging the audio system's batteries- at 12V (used for system design purposes because it's a real-world number), 95A works out to 1140 Watts. Now, this isn't likely to support that load for long, but it does give a ballpark for estimating what you'll need for recharging the batteries for the audio system. At 14.4 VDC, which is the typically-stated full charging voltage in a car or boat and this is not going to be seen at idle unless an alternator is "under-pulleyed", meaning that the alternator's pulley is smaller than normal, causing it to spin faster than it would if the larger pulley was on it. You would need to find the max RPM for the alternator, in order to avoid damage at/near WOT.

The trick- finding space for a second alternator in a boat. On a V-drive, it should be easier than in a mid-engine model.