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View Full Version : My JL audio sub is rattling


93Prostar190
05-24-2010, 10:01 PM
You know the rattle ... it is making music but on some of the bass hits it is rattling ... it does not appear to be the cover or how it is mounted ..... I am dreading that the actual speaker is "blown" or something is wrong .... I don't remember it doing that last year .... I was out on the boat for the 1st time today and it occurred .... "Boom Boom Pow"

It is a 2008 214 built in May .... so I am not sure if the JL Audio sub is under warranty .... any ideas from you sound system guru's?

Thanks.

ntidsl
05-25-2010, 07:28 AM
mine does that on some songs too...i just turn that song down a little bit...:(

timvan
05-25-2010, 08:04 AM
Is is rattling or clipping? If Rattling its done, clipping generally means too much gain and or or too little or much amp

93Prostar190
05-25-2010, 08:09 AM
Rattling ..... like a blown speaker does ... but it does not do it on songs with mellow bass or at lower volumes ...... I am pretty sure the amp was properly tuned (M6450) I checked the settings from the factory and the switches seem to be where they should be for channel 5/6 to be for the sub .... the other JL channels are doing fine.

Any chance I have a setting wrong? like you I am worried it is "blown"

timvan
05-25-2010, 08:13 AM
Rattling ..... like a blown speaker does ... but it does not do it on songs with mellow bass or at lower volumes ...... I am pretty sure the amp was properly tuned (M6450) I checked the settings from the factory and the switches seem to be where they should be for channel 5/6 to be for the sub .... the other JL channels are doing fine.

Any chance I have a setting wrong? like you I am worried it is "blown"

Sounds like you have a new anchor.

DBrown2
05-25-2010, 08:16 AM
Rattle on any song = done... I blew two fronts this weekend, Freaking Lil Wayne

93Prostar190
05-25-2010, 08:31 AM
I agree ...... just barely over 2 years old ... any chance on warranty? or should I be asking ... anyone have a 10" JL Sub they want to sell? :(

kdr
05-25-2010, 10:01 AM
I'm definitely no expert, but it may not be the speaker rattling. I had rattling on some songs on one of my door speakers in my truck (an infinity reference series), so I figured it was blown and replaced it. The rattling came back on the first song I played. I ended up figuring out that I was missing a screw on the door panel and certain frequencies cause it vibrate. I put a new screw in and it sounds great now.

I'd make sure that everything is good and tight before ditching the sub.

MariStar-Man
05-25-2010, 07:24 PM
Depending on the song and what frequency is being reproduced, the bare wire that goes from the actual woofer to the Woofer Frame could be touching the woofer during high excursion.

Also, it could be the caulking that secures said wire to the excursion area.

unscrew the sub and carefully check all woofer areas. Play it out of the box at low volume and see if any thing is vibrating, or if theres a peice of broken MDF in the box.

Lastly, you could put about 2" of fiber fill seperated loosly, to cool down the woofer at max volume...

other than that, replace the woofer and sell the bad one here on TT...lol (Slightly used) Doh!

timvan
05-26-2010, 08:00 AM
other than that, replace the woofer and sell the bad one here on TT...lol (Slightly used) Doh!

Man thats just WRONG lol

CiscoStu
05-26-2010, 11:18 AM
I had the exact same problem... It was only after I took it out that I noticed the entire plastic housing was cracked to the point that a big chunk was ready to fall out. Cracked almost completely around, at the back. I thought at first that someone dropped something heavy on it inside the seat, but the mechanic at the local dealer told me that it's "normal"... Extreme environment - vibration, temp extremes, etc. can cause them to fail like that.

I wasn't happy about the $450 replacement sub, but when I put the new one in, VOILA! no more rattling/buzzing. Now I can crank it again, and it sounds awesome!

FWIW, I got my replacement from mymastercraft.com - it was the best price I could find online. Local dealer here in Calgary wanted $500, so I thought I could find it cheaper online. Turns out I didn't save much after shipping and exchange.

Oh yeah - I guess I have a 'slightly used' 10" JL sub for sale...! ;-)

TallRedRider
05-26-2010, 11:51 AM
I had the exact same problem... It was only after I took it out that I noticed the entire plastic housing was cracked to the point that a big chunk was ready to fall out. Cracked almost completely around, at the back. I thought at first that someone dropped something heavy on it inside the seat, but the mechanic at the local dealer told me that it's "normal"... Extreme environment - vibration, temp extremes, etc. can cause them to fail like that.

I wasn't happy about the $450 replacement sub, but when I put the new one in, VOILA! no more rattling/buzzing. Now I can crank it again, and it sounds awesome!

FWIW, I got my replacement from mymastercraft.com - it was the best price I could find online. Local dealer here in Calgary wanted $500, so I thought I could find it cheaper online. Turns out I didn't save much after shipping and exchange.

Oh yeah - I guess I have a 'slightly used' 10" JL sub for sale...! ;-)

If it were me, I would strongly consider a 10 inch Wetsounds sub and put the old JL cover over the top of it. Save $300 and get equal sound without losing the factory look.

xstarplease
05-26-2010, 12:04 PM
Almost anywhere is going to be cheaper than the MC dealer or Crutchfield. Check out ebay or Amazon. There are some reputable audio dealers on there. You just have to look a little harder for them. I preface every audio post with the "I'm relatively new to this, but...", BUT I will have to disagree (respectfully of course) with TallRedRider. In my opinion (having heard both) the Wet Sounds subs can't touch the JL subs. I'm betting a JL sub can be had for around the same price as a Wet Sounds if you're diligent in looking. Having said that I will agree with RedRider in that I don't think the JL sub is $300 better than the Wet Sounds.

BNIROOSTER
05-26-2010, 12:18 PM
Rattling can also occur when moisture has gotten into the voice coil. If it is blown, I wouldn't recommend replacing it with the same woofer, get one that has a higher RMS rating or turn down the gain on the amp.

BNIROOSTER
05-26-2010, 12:23 PM
Almost anywhere is going to be cheaper than the MC dealer or Crutchfield. Check out ebay or Amazon. There are some reputable audio dealers on there. You just have to look a little harder for them. I preface every audio post with the "I'm relatively new to this, but...", BUT I will have to disagree (respectfully of course) with TallRedRider. In my opinion (having heard both) the Wet Sounds subs can't touch the JL subs. I'm betting a JL sub can be had for around the same price as a Wet Sounds if you're diligent in looking. Having said that I will agree with RedRider in that I don't think the JL sub is $300 better than the Wet Sounds.

I concur (with respect). JL marine subs are ok, but the RMS rating is usually so low that they can easily be over driven. Get yourself a good poly or carbon fiber sub. Kicker comes to mind so does fosgate. They pound harder and you aren't paying for the term "marine".

xstarplease
05-26-2010, 12:41 PM
I have a solo-baric in my boat (had one in it when I bought it). I just had to replace it because the voice coils went bad. I didn't want to have to re-do the enclosure to fit a round speaker, so I went back with a Kicker again. It hits really hard for a 10" woofer, but the W6 JL can dominate it. Of course we're talking about a big price difference. My buddy hates Kicker, but then again he is a JL and Wet Sounds dealer.

BNIRoooster, would a low RMS rating not be a good thing if the sub can still produce ample volume? The amp works less that way and shouldn't ever hurt the sub if the gains are set correctly. Am I missing something?

BNIROOSTER
05-26-2010, 12:57 PM
I have a solo-baric in my boat (had one in it when I bought it). I just had to replace it because the voice coils went bad. I didn't want to have to re-do the enclosure to fit a round speaker, so I went back with a Kicker again. It hits really hard for a 10" woofer, but the W6 JL can dominate it. Of course we're talking about a big price difference. My buddy hates Kicker, but then again he is a JL and Wet Sounds dealer.

BNIRoooster, would a low RMS rating not be a good thing if the sub can still produce ample volume? The amp works less that way and shouldn't ever hurt the sub if the gains are set correctly. Am I missing something?

In my humble opinion there is no substute for Wattage! The purpose of a sub is to move air and to reproduce the lower freq. 10s are somewhat limited to how much air they will move, however the more wattage you have going to the sub, the more movement or excursion the sub has, thus moving more air.....Just a side note, when you said lower RMS, were you talking about the amp or the sub?......The amp RMS should always match the sub RMS.....Unless you adjust you gains on the amp to match the RMS of the sub. I like to use a higher RMS amp and just adjust the gain down to match the sub.......And yes the JL W6 is a great sub also......

xstarplease
05-26-2010, 01:08 PM
I was talking about the sub having a lower RMS rating thus requiring less effort from the amp (lower gain settings).

You may be onto something with the wattage comment. Fits in with the "no replacement for displacement" logic.

BNIROOSTER
05-26-2010, 01:15 PM
I agree, and should also say that I made the assumption that everyone likes to vibrate to the tune of a few thousand watts! LOL ..........3-10s and 2-12s.....

xstarplease
05-26-2010, 01:20 PM
I agree, and should also say that I made the assumption that everyone likes to vibrate to the tune of a few thousand watts! LOL ..........3-10s and 2-12s.....

Haha, anything worth doing is worth over-doing right?

BNIROOSTER
05-26-2010, 01:24 PM
..."If you can't feel it, it aint worth hearing"!!

93Prostar190
05-26-2010, 03:17 PM
Just an update .... my awesome dealer Tri-Lakes Marine in Akron has worked with JL Audio to get me an RA# to look at the sub.... they will replace it if it is not working properly.

I appreciate everyone's feedback, I did unscrew the sub and played it in the air and still had the rattle ... the plastic and cone and everything about the sub looks good, I think that only points to the voice coil in the speaker itself... shipping it to JL today, I will post the results on the site.

I am also going to review the JL AMP settings with their technical audio specialist ... channel 5/6 is being used for the sub and I want to make sure I had them set correctly ... thanks to everyone who has weighed in. Thump/rattle/thump.

TallRedRider
05-26-2010, 03:21 PM
Almost anywhere is going to be cheaper than the MC dealer or Crutchfield. Check out ebay or Amazon. There are some reputable audio dealers on there. You just have to look a little harder for them. I preface every audio post with the "I'm relatively new to this, but...", BUT I will have to disagree (respectfully of course) with TallRedRider. In my opinion (having heard both) the Wet Sounds subs can't touch the JL subs. I'm betting a JL sub can be had for around the same price as a Wet Sounds if you're diligent in looking. Having said that I will agree with RedRider in that I don't think the JL sub is $300 better than the Wet Sounds.

Your opinion is definitely valid as long as we are both talking about the 10 inch free air sub that comes stock in MC vs the 10 inch free air Wetsounds sub. I wouldn't compare that WS sub with a JL W7 or such... Also I would compare them equally powered.

The 10 inch sub comes woefully underpowered from the factory, IMHO. I have much more power going to it than before and the performance of the JL 10 inch free air sub is actually pretty decent.

EarmarkMarine
05-26-2010, 06:30 PM
93Prostar190,

Mechanical noise is very distinctive. It could be tuning, too low of a crossover setting combined with too much gain. The higher the crossover the less gain you'll need.

Do not apply amplifier bass boost to a free-air woofer. Make sure your software is of a legit pedigree without equalization.

Reach in behind the woofer and check that a.) the rubber surround and the cone are still connected around the entire perimeter, and b.) the spider is connected to the basket all the way around.

Check to see that the braided wire leading from the terminal to the voice coil doesn't buzz against the cone on long excursions.

The above conditions are usually correctable.

David
Earmark Marine

medicmoose
05-26-2010, 07:13 PM
93Prostar190,

Mechanical noise is very distinctive. It could be tuning, too low of a crossover setting combined with too much gain. The higher the crossover the less gain you'll need.

Do not apply amplifier bass boost to a free-air woofer. Make sure your software is of a legit pedigree without equalization.

Reach in behind the woofer and check that a.) the rubber surround and the cone are still connected around the entire perimeter, and b.) the spider is connected to the basket all the way around.

Check to see that the braided wire leading from the terminal to the voice coil doesn't buzz against the cone on long excursions.

The above conditions are usually correctable.

David
Earmark Marine

Why no bass boost from the amp into a 10" free air?

EarmarkMarine
05-27-2010, 01:51 PM
medicmoose,

To answer your bass boost question:

First, a free-air is electrically and mechanically self-damped since it works in a large infinite baffle enclosure that is very compliant and offers very little back pressure. So you don't have the stiff air mass of a small sealed enclosure to provide a little extra protection against mechanical fatigue. Because a bass-reflex enclosure provides less damping and control an octave below the tuning frequency, a bass boost should be avoided here too.

Second, a bass boost is equalization and not a bass level control. The 'Q' or bandwidth is narrow and the center frequency is usually very low, around 40 to 45 Hz. In an open-field environment (versus the enclosed cabin of a vehicle) you have very little leverage down at those lower registers. Its terribly ineffecient. Unless you've got the leverage of 15" or 18" drivers in incredibly large boxes with crazy power, trying to boost those frequencies is about as effective as trying to air-condition the great outdoors. You'll make a dent but its not worth the price you pay in distortion, lost tonal construction and dynamic compression throughout the entire bandwidth. Keep in mind that a 15 dB boost, even over a seemingly narrow bandwidth, is a one to thirty-two power ratio that you don't have to spare.

Its one of the repetitive tuning flaws that I see where installers treat a boat like a vehicle.

David
Earmark Marine

93Prostar190
05-27-2010, 03:36 PM
In the interest of some audio review here is my setup and settings please feel free to comment. It a 2008 214 with Mini tower (no speakers on tower), Head Unit Clarion CMD5 (amplifier section turned off with the menu option), JL Audio Amp 6450, 4 JL Speakers in the boat (2 front, 2 back), and 1 JL Audio 10inch Subwoofer.

the 6450 amp shows 6 channels and their settings are ...
Input Voltage switch is set to low.

Channel 1&2, and also 3&4, Filter switch is on HP and the filter frequency is set at 80HZ , this is the channel settings for the JL speakers in the bow and stern areas of the boat.

On channel 5,6 mode Bass Boost if OFF, Input is on SUM (not discrete) Filter is LP @ 80HZ (channels for the subwoofer)

On none of the channels have I messed with the input sensitivity dial, they all appear to be oriented in the same way.

Basically a factory fresh setup, and from what I have read in the manual for the AMP and CMD5 .. those are the settings I want .... I also do NOT have any bass boost on the CMD5 currently turned on, although I have messed with the bass boost on that, while tuning certain media sources.

Feel free to weigh in ... my 10" sub is on the way to JL and I will report their findings. If it is blown they are willing to replace it, if not then I have not idea what the issue is....

EarmarkMarine
05-27-2010, 04:46 PM
I should add so there's no misunderstanding that the "bass boost" that I was referring to was strictly amplifier equalization. Its a very narrow bandwidth that requires alot of accentuation to hear a moderate difference. I was not referring to a bass tune control as found on a source unit. This provides a broad emphasis as bass tone controls are usually hinged at 1 Khz and turnover around 400 Hz with nearly as much boost at 100 Hz as to 50 Hz. Tone controls are therefore very responsive and consume far less power to create the desired effect. A tone control is less likely to damage a woofer as compared to an amplifier bass EQ.

David
Earmark Marine

93Prostar190
06-07-2010, 11:21 AM
I wanted to give everyone an update ... my old Sub must have been defective. I want to thank Tri-Lakes Marine in Akron for helping me with a warranty replacement of the 10" sub woofer. I also want to thank the folks at JL Audio for standing by their product.

I reviewed my amp settings and wanted to echo what is already stated in this thread ... do not "boost" the bass at your amp if you have an open-air sub like this one ... on my JL 6450 amp that means to keep bass boost off on channels 5/6.

Tri-Lakes, thank you.

Thump, thump, thump ....

Thrall
06-07-2010, 01:04 PM
Glad you got it fixed. FWIW, the 6450 amp is not big enough to blow any of the speakers in your boat (due to too much power) the way you described having it hooked up. In other words, your speakers will take more power than the 6450 can put out.

93Prostar190
06-07-2010, 01:54 PM
Glad you got it fixed. FWIW, the 6450 amp is not big enough to blow any of the speakers in your boat (due to too much power) the way you described having it hooked up. In other words, your speakers will take more power than the 6450 can put out.

I agree ..... although I believe the factory left bass boost turned on and I corrected it after a few hours of use ..... not sure that made a difference .... anyways JL Audio agrees and that is probably why they honored their warranty. Their gear is always 1st class and this must have just been one that gave out ....

No worries. Thanks for everyone's fine input.

venetrex
06-07-2010, 02:51 PM
That stock free air sub is pretty tuff. I am currently powering it with a jl audio MHD 750 and it ROCKS!! Of course I listen to rock/heavy metal music.
Very happy with jl stuff

EarmarkMarine
06-07-2010, 07:16 PM
You can definitely blow a speaker if under-powered. Most often a speaker fails when you exceed its thermal capacity. Copper voice coil wire burns and voice coil insulating enamel coatings melt at pretty much the same temperature regardless of brand or model. When you overdrive an amplifier via too much volume or equalization the signal clips or more accurately compresses. Thus, the signal and power transitions from more of a transient pulse to a continuous power level where the speaker's ability to dissipate the resulting heat is exceeded. The voice coil assembly turns into kind of a slinky and once it cools it is siezed in the gap. And this is how you have a cone froze in position. Or, sometimes the voice coil damage results in an 'open'. In either case the speaker is toast.

Too much true power may result in more of a mechanical failure with fatigued, torn or separated parts.

So proper system set-up, tuning and the correct usage does matter at any power level.

David
Earmark Marine

Yellow X9
06-07-2010, 07:20 PM
Send me a text next time, for $500.00, i'll next day air it to you and come out very good on my end

FWIW, I got my replacement from mymastercraft.com - it was the best price I could find online. Local dealer here in Calgary wanted $500, so I thought I could find it cheaper online. Turns out I didn't save much after shipping and exchange

Kell
06-13-2010, 12:55 PM
Well I picked up the boat from the dealer and was doing my summer prep, cleaning, etc.., before going out today and notice my sub (JL Audio 10") does not look right! Argh! I don't recall seeing this when I took the boat in for services two weeks ago, and I don't "crank" the tunes at all and if I had my guess, the service guy may have gone a little overboard listing to tunes during service :mad:. Perhaps it frooze...who knows, but gotta replace it.

Anyone seen anything like this before? I can't tell if the sub is trashed (working order in spite of the enclosure cracks) or how to test it. Some sound comes out but not like I recall from last year...hardly any umph! :D Warranty seems to be two years, but not sure this type of damage would be covered.

I also recall JimN posting in a thread how to tune the amps and such. I have 4 speakers plus sub in the cockpit and two tower speakers, and two amps (JL 2250 for tower speakers and M6600 for cockpit and sub). These are my amp settings....do they look right? I have not adjusted any of these amp setting or headunit settings to date. Hate to install a new sub and have the same thing happen again. Thxs.

M2250
Input voltage = Low
Base Boost = Off
Filter Mode = HP (off, HP and LP are selections)
Freq Respon = 55 Hz
Input Sensitivity = Appears to be at 25% of full rotation

M6600
Input voltage = Low

Channels 1&2
Filter Mode = HP
Freq Respon = 50 Hz
Input sensitivity = 25%

Channels 3&4
Filter Mode = HP
Freq Respon = 50 Hz
Input sensitivity = 25%

Channels 5&6 (Sub I assume)
Base Boost = Off
Filter Mode = LP
Freq Respon = 80
Input select 5&6 = Discrete (sum or discrete are the options)
Input sensitivity = 25%

EarmarkMarine
06-13-2010, 10:44 PM
Kell,

ALl of your crossovers are set way too low. Try 120 Hz for a free-air application. Then reset the gains.

I seriously doubt those cracks in the basket has anything to do with how the speaker was played. The voice coil would have burnt or the spider would have torn if the speaker was abused.

Have never seen that scenario before with JL Audio or any other brand.

David
Earmark Marine

Kell
06-14-2010, 12:49 AM
Thanks David. Would I also set the frequency response for the sub (channel 5&6) at 120 as well. The JL amp manuals seem to indicate setting the frequency response to 80 Hz. Also is there an easier way to set the gains. I download some test tones, have a digital multimeter but I really don't want to disconnect the speaker wires from the amp for fear of hooking them up incorrectly? Too many wires and I likely would screw things up. Thoughts?

93Prostar190
06-14-2010, 08:16 AM
I think JL will stan by their product ... you should contact them for a warranty replacement ..... that just doesn't seem right ... unless you had it installed in a Bering Sea crab boat, you may be able to place a warranty claim.

CiscoStu
06-28-2010, 10:24 AM
Send me a text next time, for $500.00, i'll next day air it to you and come out very good on my end

FWIW, I got my replacement from mymastercraft.com - it was the best price I could find online. Local dealer here in Calgary wanted $500, so I thought I could find it cheaper online. Turns out I didn't save much after shipping and exchange


Thanks Yellow - I'll keep that in mind... ALTHOUGH I was talking $CDN... ;)

CiscoStu
06-28-2010, 10:36 AM
Well I picked up the boat from the dealer and was doing my summer prep, cleaning, etc.., before going out today and notice my sub (JL Audio 10") does not look right! Argh! I don't recall seeing this when I took the boat in for services two weeks ago, and I don't "crank" the tunes at all and if I had my guess, the service guy may have gone a little overboard listing to tunes during service :mad:. Perhaps it frooze...who knows, but gotta replace it.

Anyone seen anything like this before? I can't tell if the sub is trashed (working order in spite of the enclosure cracks) or how to test it. Some sound comes out but not like I recall from last year...hardly any umph! :D Warranty seems to be two years, but not sure this type of damage would be covered.

I also recall JimN posting in a thread how to tune the amps and such. I have 4 speakers plus sub in the cockpit and two tower speakers, and two amps (JL 2250 for tower speakers and M6600 for cockpit and sub). These are my amp settings....do they look right? I have not adjusted any of these amp setting or headunit settings to date. Hate to install a new sub and have the same thing happen again. Thxs.
25%

Kell - I had this EXACT thing happen to me... That's why I replaced mine (see previous posts).

This past spring I had the Mastercraft dealer go over my boat with a fine-tooth comb to see what needed doing. I was actually with the guy for about an hour of the 3 hour inspection, and at one point he opened the seat where the sub was, and felt around the sub very carefully. Since I had just replaced the sub over the winter, I told him I had replaced it, and asked what he was looking for. He said that they OFTEN crack apart like that. When I told him I figured that someone dropped something heavy on it, he said, "no - due to the extreme weather conditions they are exposed to, it's quite a common thing."

I live in Canada, so the weather will swing from -30F to 105F in a season... (probably even hotter under the black cover). He said they have seen it alot where boats are stored outside.

In his opinion, it was nothing to do with the operation of the stereo, it was purely a matter of plastic expanding and contracting...

Kell
06-28-2010, 11:19 PM
Thanks CiscoStu for the info. It makes sense. I have not gotten around to calling JL for a warranty claim, but I did buy a new one a couple days ago for the upcoming 4th weekend. If JL warranties the sub, then I'll have a spare in case this happens again.