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Nolan
05-17-2010, 06:13 PM
Any one got a cure when the frost plug rusts out and a new one can not be put in because the edges are rusted and can not hold poping a new one in?

TMCNo1
05-17-2010, 06:26 PM
If that's truly the case, a rubber one like this should work, http://www.autozone.com/autozone/catalog/parts/partsProduct.jsp?itemIdentifier=522557_0_0_&isSearchByPartNumber=true&displayName=Motormite/Freeze+Plug&store=3492&productId=522557&navValue=15100456&itemId=456-0&parentId=51-0

83SuperSlot
05-17-2010, 07:35 PM
I've got the rubber one in mine....

thatsmrmastercraft
05-17-2010, 11:46 PM
Mine came with two in it.

Ghost of TMC Past
05-24-2010, 03:28 PM
I blew out a freeze plug - the one on the port (observer) side.

Went to replace it and there is an engine mount right in the way - used one of the rubber ones - it blew out as well.

Short of getting a cherry picker and pulling the engine out of the boat, how would one go about replacing the freeze plug?

The motor is 351W.

83SuperSlot
05-24-2010, 06:16 PM
I blew out a freeze plug - the one on the port (observer) side.

Went to replace it and there is an engine mount right in the way - used one of the rubber ones - it blew out as well.

Short of getting a cherry picker and pulling the engine out of the boat, how would one go about replacing the freeze plug?

The motor is 351W.

I guess my question is why do they keep blowing out?!?
:confused:

thatsmrmastercraft
05-24-2010, 06:35 PM
Good question 83. How many hours on the 351? What were the circumstances of the frost plugs coming out?

slickwater1
05-24-2010, 07:25 PM
should not be any pressure on the freeze plugs, make sure that you don't have an obstruction in the exhaust

JimN
05-24-2010, 07:28 PM
should not be any pressure on the freeze plugs, make sure that you don't have an obstruction in the exhaust

If it was on the exhaust manifold, I would agree but in the block, when the thermostat is closed, the water in the block can be pressurized.

JimN
05-24-2010, 07:30 PM
I wouldn't bother with rubber freeze plugs. Use the right part, make sure the hole is clean/dry and install it correctly. The motor will be fine if you remove the motor mount. If you want, put a flat piece of wood under a block of wood to support the motor while the mount is off.

83SuperSlot
05-24-2010, 07:48 PM
My rubber plug is working fine....

:confused:

Ghost of TMC Past
05-24-2010, 10:01 PM
Other than removing the engine mount any ideas?

So I have to ask, what do the number of hours and the reason it came out matter?

JimN
05-24-2010, 10:15 PM
As far as I know, the rubber ones are for temporary use only.

Ghost of TMC Past
05-24-2010, 10:18 PM
Oh I tried like hell to get the "real" freeze plug back in there - but couldn't figure out a way - hence the rubber one.

JimN
05-24-2010, 10:18 PM
Other than removing the engine mount any ideas?

So I have to ask, what do the number of hours and the reason it came out matter?

The hours don't matter but the reason does. If it's from freezing, it's still possible that the motor has an internal crack- hopefully not. If it was from a restriction in the cooling system, that should be checked out, too. I don't see how the reason wouldn't matter. The first question after most things happen is either "How?" or "Why?".

Ghost of TMC Past
05-24-2010, 10:24 PM
I know why it blew the first time - the second time is still a mystery. No restriction as the thermostat had been removed. I think it is a bad circulation pump so I am replacing that.

I can promise you it was not from freezing. No water in it to freeze - that and it don't get that cold here.

83SuperSlot
05-24-2010, 11:03 PM
As far as I know, the rubber ones are for temporary use only.

Mine is definitely permanent.. it's a expansion plug with rubber & brass..

thatsmrmastercraft
05-25-2010, 09:10 AM
I know why it blew the first time - the second time is still a mystery. No restriction as the thermostat had been removed. I think it is a bad circulation pump so I am replacing that.

I can promise you it was not from freezing. No water in it to freeze - that and it don't get that cold here.

If you know why it blew the first time, perhaps you might have included that information in your original request for assistance. Not knowing any history of your engine, a few questions are sometimes need to be answered in order to offer any help.

Ghost of TMC Past
05-25-2010, 11:05 AM
If you know why it blew the first time, perhaps you might have included that information in your original request for assistance. Not knowing any history of your engine, a few questions are sometimes need to be answered in order to offer any help.

I disagree

My question was simple and to the point. If I want to continue to blow freeze plugs that is my prerogative. I fail to see where the history of my engine has any relevance as to how to replace a freeze plug that the access to is impeded.

Thank you JimN for the answer as to how to access this freeze plug.

TX.X-30 fan
05-25-2010, 12:13 PM
Good thread.

CantRepeat
05-25-2010, 12:20 PM
I've been running a rubber freeze plug for almost 4 years. No issues.

flipper
05-25-2010, 12:53 PM
Good thread.
Great thread

flipper
05-25-2010, 12:54 PM
I blew out a freeze plug - the one on the port (observer) side.

Went to replace it and there is an engine mount right in the way - used one of the rubber ones - it blew out as well.

Short of getting a cherry picker and pulling the engine out of the boat, how would one go about replacing the freeze plug?

The motor is 351W.
have you thought about turning the boat over, taking the engine bolts out, and letting the engine fall out. That way you don't have to mess around with pulling the engine.

thatsmrmastercraft
05-25-2010, 01:01 PM
I disagree

My question was simple and to the point. If I want to continue to blow freeze plugs that is my prerogative. I fail to see where the history of my engine has any relevance as to how to replace a freeze plug that the access to is impeded.

Thank you JimN for the answer as to how to access this freeze plug.

In the spirit of all those who have kindly answered so many of the questions I asked when I was new to this forum, I will wish you the best of luck in resolving your freeze plug issues.

Ghost of TMC Past
05-25-2010, 01:02 PM
have you thought about turning the boat over, taking the engine bolts out, and letting the engine fall out. That way you don't have to mess around with pulling the engine.


Would I need to remove the muffler bearings before I do that?

pram
05-25-2010, 01:10 PM
No the muffler bearing is an optional pull, if you use a 3/4x13/16 combo box end angled 12 point ratchet ended open then you don't have to release the muffler bearing

flipper
05-25-2010, 01:11 PM
Would I need to remove the muffler bearings before I do that?
No need, but I like to drain the windshield wiper fluid before I do it

slickwater1
05-25-2010, 01:29 PM
Great thread even better personality's. I really am wondering now how the plug could have come out if never froze and no water left in it. Other than taking it out personally I am lost.

TX.X-30 fan
05-25-2010, 01:42 PM
I'm lost too, what color is the boat.

03 35th Anniversary
05-25-2010, 01:53 PM
Great thread even better personality's. I really am wondering now how the plug could have come out if never froze and no water left in it. Other than taking it out personally I am lost.

Heat can get them sometimes!

83SuperSlot
05-25-2010, 01:56 PM
Heat can get them sometimes!

Never heard of such a thing.... I have overheated (about 300 degrees) my 360 lots of times and once to the point of where my radiator exploded and never had a plug pop... :confused: Crazy!

83SuperSlot
05-25-2010, 02:10 PM
I disagree

My question was simple and to the point. If I want to continue to blow freeze plugs that is my prerogative. I fail to see where the history of my engine has any relevance as to how to replace a freeze plug that the access to is impeded.

Thank you JimN for the answer as to how to access this freeze plug.

Well, kind of a smart alec answer but to continue on what mrmastercraft was saying to you... If it keeps blowing because the block is cracked or there is damage or corrosion to the area you keep trying to repair then you really have a bigger issue than your plug.. He was trying to save you some work in the long run, as was I.... Point of fact (look it up) those plugs are not supposed to ever fall out. They get the name freeze plugs because sometimes your lucky enough that they do pop. Usually even when they do pop your block is cracked anyway... If your plugs keep popping either you don't know what you are doing when you install them OR you have something seriously wrong with your block.

If you don't want to entertain other people's knowledge and experience, because you believe you are an expert, then I would simply suggest a book or just using google... Then you don't have anyone trying to help you...

:huh:

Good luck, I hope that works out for you so you can get on the water!

03 35th Anniversary
05-25-2010, 02:26 PM
Never heard of such a thing.... I have overheated (about 300 degrees) my 360 lots of times and once to the point of where my radiator exploded and never had a plug pop... :confused: Crazy!

They are made to pop out under pressure! Heat creates pressure! The reason your radiator exploded! If the plugs are weak and or not installed correctly they will come out.

TX.X-30 fan
05-25-2010, 02:28 PM
They are made to pop out under pressure! Heat creates pressure! The reason your radiator exploded! If the plugs are weak and or not installed correctly they will come out.



Mine are brass and threaded how could they come out unless through expansion from ice?

03 35th Anniversary
05-25-2010, 02:36 PM
Mine are brass and threaded how could they come out unless through expansion from ice?

I'd think a wrench!!! :D

TX.X-30 fan
05-25-2010, 02:38 PM
I'd think a wrench!!! :D




You Texans are a sharp bunch!! :D

Ghost of TMC Past
05-25-2010, 02:47 PM
Well, kind of a smart alec answer but to continue on what mrmastercraft was saying to you... If it keeps blowing because the block is cracked or there is damage or corrosion to the area you keep trying to repair then you really have a bigger issue than your plug.. He was trying to save you some work in the long run, as was I.... Point of fact (look it up) those plugs are not supposed to ever fall out. They get the name freeze plugs because sometimes your lucky enough that they do pop. Usually even when they do pop your block is cracked anyway... If your plugs keep popping either you don't know what you are doing when you install them OR you have something seriously wrong with your block.

If you don't want to entertain other people's knowledge and experience, because you believe you are an expert, then I would simply suggest a book or just using google... Then you don't have anyone trying to help you...

:huh:

Good luck, I hope that works out for you so you can get on the water!

Again, my question was simple. I did not claim to be an expert, however, yourself and thatsmrmastercraft did imply that you were. I am unsure why you two gentlemen need to find some deeper meaning to my question. I simply wanted to know if there was a trick to getting the freeze plug back into place due to the engine mount being in the way. I do not see where it would matter if half of the block was missing. If you did not have an answer to my question, you did not have to post.

That being said, is this how all of the "newbies" are treated now? I am no newbie and stopped posting on this board a long time ago. However, when I was here and someone asked a question similar to this and you did not have an answer one would welcome them to the board and allow for someone who knew the answer to come along. Unless I missed it along the way, there was only one solution and some playful banter provided to my query.

You are assuming that I know nothing regarding my engine and are trying to act like I am the one with the issue because I did not solicit, nor am I interested in, your "knowledge or experience" if it is not relevant to reinserting a freeze plug into a block that has an engine mount in the way.

I now remember why I stopped posting here in the first place, however, there are some excellent resources here and I was seeking their assistance in answering my question.

83SuperSlot
05-25-2010, 02:52 PM
I guess we'll just agree to disagree. Good luck!

03 35th Anniversary
05-25-2010, 03:00 PM
Okay, so using your logic about the plugs being "designed" to pop why would they only come out if they are weak or not installed correctly? And, if they are designed for pressure, where are the pressure ratings for a plug? Have you ever seen the pressure ratings for one?? It doesn't make any sense.... Hoses, radiators, even the pump will fail well before a plug pops due to heat..... why would it be "designed to pop under heat?" Everything else fails before it... How hot does it have to get?? I guess it depends on your block.... I know a iron block has to get to about 1000++ degrees before it will crack... Lets say about about 600+ for a aluminum one... And everything else in the cooling system fails at 300...

So, whats the point of plugs popping because of heat? If this is true I guess we will have to start looking at the temp. and pressure ratings of our plugs...

If pressure doesn't push the plugs out, then how do they come out? They get cold and fall out?

83SuperSlot
05-25-2010, 03:04 PM
My point is that hot fluid cannot cause enough pressure to force them out before the rest of the system fails.

03 35th Anniversary
05-25-2010, 03:09 PM
My point is that hot fluid cannot cause enough pressure to force them out before the rest of the system fails.

I wouldn't think so in an open cooling system in a boat either!

But I have seen old plugs that are weak that have been in and out a couple of time push out with heat.

thatsmrmastercraft
05-25-2010, 03:18 PM
Again, my question was simple. I did not claim to be an expert, however, yourself and thatsmrmastercraft did imply that you were. I am unsure why you two gentlemen need to find some deeper meaning to my question. I simply wanted to know if there was a trick to getting the freeze plug back into place due to the engine mount being in the way. I do not see where it would matter if half of the block was missing. If you did not have an answer to my question, you did not have to post.

That being said, is this how all of the "newbies" are treated now? I am no newbie and stopped posting on this board a long time ago. However, when I was here and someone asked a question similar to this and you did not have an answer one would welcome them to the board and allow for someone who knew the answer to come along. Unless I missed it along the way, there was only one solution and some playful banter provided to my query.

You are assuming that I know nothing regarding my engine and are trying to act like I am the one with the issue because I did not solicit, nor am I interested in, your "knowledge or experience" if it is not relevant to reinserting a freeze plug into a block that has an engine mount in the way.

I now remember why I stopped posting here in the first place, however, there are some excellent resources here and I was seeking their assistance in answering my question.

While I make no claim to being an expert, I am sufficiently schooled in working with engines to dare to look deeper into a problem to find a source - rather than to just offer a band-aid cure. I guess if you really want to keep popping freeze plugs I wouldn't try to stop you. If you really just want to keep the plug in at any cost completely disregarding why they keep coming out, you might get a metal plug and weld it in place.

Newbies get treated very well around here - except when they show up with a know-it-all attitude and a complete disregard for someone who is genuinely trying to help get to the root of a problem.

Curious how it comes to be that you quit posting on this forum some time ago.

flipper
05-25-2010, 03:19 PM
Can't they just rattle loose? Maybe I should put some loctite on mine so I don't have this problem

83SuperSlot
05-25-2010, 03:25 PM
They can corrode, especially in a fresh water system... but again, the problem would be the weakening by corrosion not the pressure....

TX.X-30 fan
05-25-2010, 03:29 PM
Can't they just rattle loose? Maybe I should put some loctite on mine so I don't have this problem



I'd use Gorilla Glue if I were you.



Hey is this Gene??

thatsmrmastercraft
05-25-2010, 03:30 PM
Corrosion at the block sealing surface if not sufficiently cleaned will cause a freeze plug to come unseated - whether its brass or rubber.

flipper
05-25-2010, 03:34 PM
Corrosion at the block sealing surface if not sufficiently cleaned will cause a freeze plug to come unseated - whether its brass or rubber.
I thought the whole point of a rubber is for when it's not clean?:confused:

thatsmrmastercraft
05-25-2010, 03:36 PM
I thought the whole point of a rubber is for when it's not clean?:confused:

Maybe he turned the rubber inside out to reuse and that's where the whole problem started. :D

83SuperSlot
05-25-2010, 03:38 PM
Corrosion at the block sealing surface if not sufficiently cleaned will cause a freeze plug to come unseated - whether its brass or rubber.

This is my point too.... under any kind of heat pressure, a brand new, properly installed plug will not pop... again they are not supposed to come out at all if properly maintained... that's why a previous poster's plugs are threaded in by the factory...

83SuperSlot
05-25-2010, 03:41 PM
I thought the whole point of a rubber is for when it's not clean?:confused:

HAHAHA.... :D

americanskierJim
05-25-2010, 04:01 PM
great thread and show lol

WELCOME back to TT.:popcorn:

Ghost of TMC Past
05-25-2010, 04:22 PM
While I make no claim to being an expert, I am sufficiently schooled in working with engines to dare to look deeper into a problem to find a source - rather than to just offer a band-aid cure. I guess if you really want to keep popping freeze plugs I wouldn't try to stop you. If you really just want to keep the plug in at any cost completely disregarding why they keep coming out, you might get a metal plug and weld it in place.

Newbies get treated very well around here - except when they show up with a know-it-all attitude and a complete disregard for someone who is genuinely trying to help get to the root of a problem.

Curious how it comes to be that you quit posting on this forum some time ago.

Why is it that you assume that I have not already diagnosed the issue, purchased the parts that need to be replaced and installed them?

As to your question - I left because it changed.

This is my point too.... under any kind of heat pressure, a brand new, properly installed plug will not pop... again they are not supposed to come out at all if properly maintained... that's why a previous poster's plugs are threaded in by the factory...

How exactly do you maintain a freeze plug?

thatsmrmastercraft
05-25-2010, 04:31 PM
Why is it that you assume that I have not already diagnosed the issue, purchased the parts that need to be replaced and installed them?

As to your question - I left because it changed.

I stand corrected. I assumed both that because you couldn't figure out how to replace a freeze plug, you might not know the original cause of two coming out; and that you are way too arrogant to accept assistance from someone who was offering it with no malice. I was wrong about the former.

FWIW, I asked no question.

TX.X-30 fan
05-25-2010, 04:34 PM
Will a wrench with all the funky knuckles on it get around the motor mount?

Ghost of TMC Past
05-25-2010, 04:42 PM
I stand corrected. I assumed both that because you couldn't figure out how to replace a freeze plug, you might not know the original cause of two coming out; and that you are way too arrogant to accept assistance from someone who was offering it with no malice. I was wrong about the former.

FWIW, I asked no question.


I know how to replace a freeze plug.

What exactly did I say that was arrogant?

Or is it a case of your arrogance?

thatsmrmastercraft
05-25-2010, 04:50 PM
I know how to replace a freeze plug.

What exactly did I say that was arrogant?

Or is it a case of your arrogance?

I disagree

My question was simple and to the point. If I want to continue to blow freeze plugs that is my prerogative. I fail to see where the history of my engine has any relevance as to how to replace a freeze plug that the access to is impeded.

Thank you JimN for the answer as to how to access this freeze plug.

Your words in bold speak for themselves.

Ghost of TMC Past
05-25-2010, 04:53 PM
Your words in bold speak for themselves.


We live in different worlds if you feel that those comments are arrogant.

Where is Dr. Brainey?

83SuperSlot
05-25-2010, 05:10 PM
Why is it that you assume that I have not already diagnosed the issue, purchased the parts that need to be replaced and installed them?

As to your question - I left because it changed.



How exactly do you maintain a freeze plug?

Wow, so now you think I am going to explain this to you?? Try google.

flipper
05-25-2010, 05:31 PM
Maybe he turned the rubber inside out to reuse and that's where the whole problem started. :D
hmmm, never thought of that

TX.X-30 fan
05-25-2010, 05:36 PM
Freeze plug maintenance is as important as polishing my bilge to me!!

Mr_Woodcock
05-25-2010, 05:45 PM
The question and further diagnostic probably could have been solved by now... Live and Learn I guess...

83SuperSlot
05-25-2010, 05:55 PM
Freeze plug maintenance is as important as polishing my bilge to me!!

Me too TX!! But your cooling system maintenance is something to be aware of.... especially when your popping off expansion plugs...

:smile:

TMCNo1
05-25-2010, 06:03 PM
Someone just pm'd me saying Lake Pirate knows all about blowing freeze plugs.

oxberger
05-26-2010, 12:56 PM
I'm curious, since the freeze plug was blown before how it got replaced the second time. My boat is a little different than yours and very easy to access. You may want to try taking a socket that fits the inner diameter of it placing it in by hand then taking a piece of steel and pry it against something causing the socket to push the plug back in.

TX.X-30 fan
05-26-2010, 05:18 PM
The guy admitted he was from the South................... not a lot else to say.

thatsmrmastercraft
05-26-2010, 05:27 PM
The guy admitted he was from the South................... not a lot else to say.

:uglyhamme:uglyhamme:uglyhamme

thatsmrmastercraft
05-26-2010, 05:28 PM
It's a sure bet he has his name on the back of his belt.

TX.X-30 fan
05-26-2010, 06:31 PM
To clarify I'm from the Southwest!! :D

JimN
05-26-2010, 09:10 PM
I'm curious, since the freeze plug was blown before how it got replaced the second time. My boat is a little different than yours and very easy to access. You may want to try taking a socket that fits the inner diameter of it placing it in by hand then taking a piece of steel and pry it against something causing the socket to push the plug back in.

They're usually installed with a press, not driven in. If it's driven in, it's best to use something wider than the hole so the plug doesn't end up inside of the cavity. It's supposed to be an interference fit and no Loc-Tite should be used.

glassmaster
05-26-2010, 10:11 PM
Good thread.

Great thread

I never realized that there was so much to learn about installing a freeze plug
or was it removing a motor mount
or was it the process of either
or maybe the method of communication
or was it arrogance?
Wow so much going on here :popcorn:
And I thought this would be a simple fix.
Just goes to show you how complicated things can get when you think you have it figured out.
Awesome thread :headbang:

JimN
05-26-2010, 10:33 PM
I never realized that there was so much to learn about installing a freeze plug
or was it removing a motor mount
or was it the process of either
or maybe the method of communication
or was it arrogance?
Wow so much going on here :popcorn:
And I thought this would be a simple fix.
Just goes to show you how complicated things can get when you think you have it figured out.
Awesome thread :headbang:

Look into 'torque angle', if you always thought tightening a bolt was just "crank it and go".

glassmaster
05-26-2010, 10:52 PM
Look into 'torque angle', if you always thought tightening a bolt was just "crank it and go".

What amazes me is how someone can get bent at someone that is truly trying to help them.
Even though I don't agree with some of the things that go on in this forum I know for certain there is a lot genuine help that goes on here from people in the know for troubleshooting MasterCrafts, from what I have experienced. Unfortunately pride and egos get in the way, but it does make for some great entertainment. :D

americanskierJim
05-26-2010, 10:56 PM
:uglyhammeLook into 'torque angle', if you always thought tightening a bolt was just "crank it and go".

I forgot is that 31 degrees or 39 to get the torque angle and was that a left hand thread??:uglyhamme

cbryan70
05-26-2010, 11:00 PM
Heat can get them sometimes!

You mean melting where the water goes into the motor could have somthing to do with this? Or black smoke coming out and people in the boat screaming to stop to no avail, what about water coming over the floorboards?

JimN
05-26-2010, 11:00 PM
What amazes me is how someone can get bent at someone that is truly trying to help them.
Even though I don't agree with some of the things that go on in this forum I know for certain there is a lot genuine help that goes on here from people in the know for troubleshooting MasterCrafts, from what I have experienced. Unfortunately pride and egos get in the way, but it does make for some great entertainment. :D

I guess it's covered by "No good deed goes unpunished", eh?

JimN
05-26-2010, 11:02 PM
:uglyhamme

I forgot is that 31 degrees or 39 to get the torque angle and was that a left hand thread??:uglyhamme

I was taught that 39 degrees is where fresh water starts to freeze.

americanskierJim
05-26-2010, 11:11 PM
Oh then that is the problem it is solved dont run the boat in cold water it might "pop" the plug. I got it now 39 degrees is a "NO,NO". Ok I am having to much fun here. Time out for me back in the corner I go.

thatsmrmastercraft
05-27-2010, 12:44 AM
Oh then that is the problem it is solved dont run the boat in cold water it might "pop" the plug. I got it now 39 degrees is a "NO,NO". Ok I am having to much fun here. Time out for me back in the corner I go.

So you are trying to say that shrinkage is what caused the freeze plug to fail?

oxberger
05-27-2010, 09:01 AM
They're usually installed with a press, not driven in. If it's driven in, it's best to use something wider than the hole so the plug doesn't end up inside of the cavity. It's supposed to be an interference fit and no Loc-Tite should be used.

Thanks for the info. I've never had to replace any freeze plugs, but I've seen someone do something like I mentioned on a vehicle. Didn't realize there was a chance of doing more harm than good. Lesson learned.

flipper
05-27-2010, 09:58 AM
Lakey had freeze plug trouble before?

strad
05-27-2010, 12:05 PM
Lol I can't believe you guys are getting this much mileage out of this subject! :popcorn:

thatsmrmastercraft
05-27-2010, 12:26 PM
Thats why they serve popcorn here.

Welcome aboard strad.

ski_king
05-27-2010, 12:58 PM
I have been ignoring this thread as I had no input...... looks like I missed a good one.




........I now remember why I stopped posting here in the first place,............

Welcome back Gene, we have missed you!

Barefooter92
05-27-2010, 01:02 PM
Welcome to TT, again. What's the question? :popcorn:

Great Thread.

My :twocents: if you thought it was in tight you should try thighter next time!

Nolan
05-27-2010, 01:57 PM
Thanks. That worked

thatsmrmastercraft
05-27-2010, 03:24 PM
Glad to hear it worked for you.

TX.X-30 fan
05-27-2010, 06:47 PM
Welcome to TT, again. What's the question? :popcorn:

Great Thread.

My :twocents: if you thought it was in tight you should try thighter next time!




Way too helpful!! :mad:






:D

JLeuck64
05-27-2010, 07:15 PM
"If at first you don't succeed... Keep on sucking until you do suc ceed! Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk!" Curly Stooge

83SuperSlot
05-28-2010, 12:13 AM
Well, I'm pretty sure the subject is covered....

:smile: