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ahhudgins
05-12-2010, 03:31 PM
Iíve discussed the porpoising issue with my 95 Maristar 200 on several occasions. Iíve glued a small wedge to my transom as a temporary fix but I want to play with the motor alignment to see if itís an issue. Just a little back ground: I bought the boat used and I didnít find out about the porpoising until I tried to barefoot with 4 people in the boat. It is NOT a weight distribution problem, I can put 3 people in the bow and it still does it. With only one or two people in the boat it rides fine, but the bow is very high above the water. It does the same thing with the factory 3 blade and the OJ CNC 4 blade. With my wedge installed, the boat planes quicker, tracks better, and turns flatter.
Itís a pain in the butt to get to the coupling on my V-Drive, but Iím going to check and see how much adjustment I have up and down. My question is: Which way do I adjust the motor in order to bring the bow down (or the stern up)? My guess was to adjust my motor so the prop points further DOWNWARD which would push the stern upwards, or will this push the whole boat up out of the water even further? Iíve got a 50/50 shot at which way to go, Iím just trying to avoid spending all afternoon guessing at it. If the engine alignment doesn't help, I'll go to a wake plate. Thanks for any input!

FrankSchwab
05-12-2010, 11:25 PM
You can't do what you're trying to do.

The angle of the propshaft is set by the strut. Even if you could adjust that, you couldn't adjust much because there is only an inch or so of play at the shaft log - and that wouldn't give much of an angular adjustment.

By cranking the engine up or down, all you're going to do is bend the propshaft, put excessive loads on the output shaft bearings in the transmission, and add significant wear to the cutlass bearings in the strut.

/frank

Jorski
05-12-2010, 11:37 PM
That is correct. The engine adjustments are only there to get the engine to line up correctly with drive unit.

Trim tabs are your correct solution.

ahhudgins
05-13-2010, 08:32 AM
On the other hand, some people have told me that a slight adjustment will make a BIG difference. I replaced the strut when I bought the boat because it was bent, and with a new strut and bushing, there was about a half inch of wiggle room between the motor and the shaft coupling. I found what seemed to be the center position and then moved the motor to mate up with the shaft coupling. I had no intention of putting the shaft in a bind, I just thought that maybe a very slight angle adjustment would help. There are guys on this board who have the same boat with the same porpoising problem, and others do not. I do like the option of a wake plate since it's adjustable, but I would just like to know why some of them porpoise and others don't. I've lost a lot of sleep over this!!!:confused:
Thanks.

JimN
05-13-2010, 08:45 AM
On the other hand, some people have told me that a slight adjustment will make a BIG difference. I replaced the strut when I bought the boat because it was bent, and with a new strut and bushing, there was about a half inch of wiggle room between the motor and the shaft coupling. I found what seemed to be the center position and then moved the motor to mate up with the shaft coupling. I had no intention of putting the shaft in a bind, I just thought that maybe a very slight angle adjustment would help. There are guys on this board who have the same boat with the same porpoising problem, and others do not. I do like the option of a wake plate since it's adjustable, but I would just like to know why some of them porpoise and others don't. I've lost a lot of sleep over this!!!:confused:
Thanks.

They have used at least two strut angles and they were about 7 degrees apart, but they didn't use different aligned struts on one model. If you didn't have to fight with the propshaft or do a major motor realignment when you replaced the strut and didn't notice a big difference between the shaft and strut angles, the strut is the correct one. If you change the motor's alignment too much, the shaft will no longer be aligned to the strut and the bearings will wear, possibly causing the shaft to fail. If you're porpoising badly, a slight change won't make enough difference- about the only way you could make enough difference is if you shimmed the strut and realigned it to match the angle.

FrankSchwab
05-13-2010, 12:32 PM
I'm not sure how big of a change in prop angle you could expect to create with this method.

The strut has cutlass bearings in both the front and back of it. Any attempt to adjust the prop angle is going to bind the propshaft against both of these bearings, wearing them. I suppose once the propshaft has worn a groove into the bearings, you can expect a slight change in the thrust angle from the prop, but my gut says it just can't make that much of a difference.

/frank

Jesus_Freak
05-13-2010, 12:36 PM
They have used at least two strut angles and they were about 7 degrees apart...

As I recall, the current strut angle on the DD boats is somewhat large. How/when was this decided?

ahhudgins
05-13-2010, 01:22 PM
Originally Posted by JimN
They have used at least two strut angles and they were about 7 degrees apart...

If the strut had been replaced with one with a different angle (before I bought it) could a 7 degree difference cause the problem? If not, I will just give up and add a wake plate. Someone had moved the motor sideways to match the bent strut, but I donít recall there being an issue with the up/down alignment when I installed the new strut, but that could have been changed also. If possible, I would like to eliminate any chance of alignment/strut issue before I add a wake plate. Without my added hook, the boat is useless over 32 MPH if I have several people in the boat. I would have already added the plate but I read where other guys with exact boat donít have this issue. If I were going to change my alignment, it would have been very, very slight because I am aware of the bushings in the strut.
Everyone, thanks for the input!

JLeuck64
05-13-2010, 01:52 PM
Somebody out there... tell us an easy way to determine what angle his strut is that is currently mounted to the bottom of the Hull?

Jesus_Freak
05-13-2010, 03:59 PM
Somebody out there... tell us an easy way to determine what angle his strut is that is currently mounted to the bottom of the Hull?

Do you mean besides arctan(rise/run)? :D

JLeuck64
05-13-2010, 04:02 PM
Yea... I sure as heck wouldn't want a boat that porpoised over 32MPH either. Useless is an understatement if you ask me! Let's put our collective smarts together to help the guy out.

ahhudgins
05-13-2010, 08:51 PM
Yea... I sure as heck wouldn't want a boat that porpoised over 32MPH either. Useless is an understatement if you ask me! Let's put our collective smarts together to help the guy out.

I know there is another poster who is waiting for this problem to be resolved because he has the same issue. Call me crazy, but I am going to experiment SLIGHTLY with the alignment. Don't worry, I've replaced bushings and struts before I know how critical everything is. I'm not going to go over board. What ever my problem is, it's right on the boarder line. The hook I added was 3/16" and that was too much, I had to file it off a little bit at a time to get it just right. Sorry to be such a pain in the butt, but I've owned two other Mastercrafts and this Maristar 200 handles like a Bayliner without the hook.

JimN
05-13-2010, 10:27 PM
Somebody out there... tell us an easy way to determine what angle his strut is that is currently mounted to the bottom of the Hull?

How could we possibly know that?

JimN
05-13-2010, 10:29 PM
Iíve discussed the porpoising issue with my 95 Maristar 200 on several occasions. Iíve glued a small wedge to my transom as a temporary fix but I want to play with the motor alignment to see if itís an issue. Just a little back ground: I bought the boat used and I didnít find out about the porpoising until I tried to barefoot with 4 people in the boat. It is NOT a weight distribution problem, I can put 3 people in the bow and it still does it. With only one or two people in the boat it rides fine, but the bow is very high above the water. It does the same thing with the factory 3 blade and the OJ CNC 4 blade. With my wedge installed, the boat planes quicker, tracks better, and turns flatter.
Itís a pain in the butt to get to the coupling on my V-Drive, but Iím going to check and see how much adjustment I have up and down. My question is: Which way do I adjust the motor in order to bring the bow down (or the stern up)? My guess was to adjust my motor so the prop points further DOWNWARD which would push the stern upwards, or will this push the whole boat up out of the water even further? Iíve got a 50/50 shot at which way to go, Iím just trying to avoid spending all afternoon guessing at it. If the engine alignment doesn't help, I'll go to a wake plate. Thanks for any input!

How do you know it's not a weight distribution problem if it never happened until you had 4 people in the boat? Was that also the first time you tried to barefoot? If you had successfully barefooted, it definitely IS a weight distribution issue.

This is the first time I have heard of this model with a porpoising problem.

JimN
05-13-2010, 10:30 PM
Do you mean besides arctan(rise/run)? :D

You mean 'slope', right?:D

JimN
05-13-2010, 10:32 PM
Originally Posted by JimN
They have used at least two strut angles and they were about 7 degrees apart...

If the strut had been replaced with one with a different angle (before I bought it) could a 7 degree difference cause the problem? If not, I will just give up and add a wake plate. Someone had moved the motor sideways to match the bent strut, but I donít recall there being an issue with the up/down alignment when I installed the new strut, but that could have been changed also. If possible, I would like to eliminate any chance of alignment/strut issue before I add a wake plate. Without my added hook, the boat is useless over 32 MPH if I have several people in the boat. I would have already added the plate but I read where other guys with exact boat donít have this issue. If I were going to change my alignment, it would have been very, very slight because I am aware of the bushings in the strut.
Everyone, thanks for the input!

If a strut that was off by 7 degrees was installed, it's because the wrong part was ordered and/or installed. If that had occurred, the alignment would have to be adjusted. How long have you owned this boat, and is there a way to get service records for the repair?

ahhudgins
05-13-2010, 11:30 PM
If a strut that was off by 7 degrees was installed, it's because the wrong part was ordered and/or installed. If that had occurred, the alignment would have to be adjusted. How long have you owned this boat, and is there a way to get service records for the repair?

I bought the boat 3 summers ago. I test drove the boat with only 2 people in the boat, myself and my wife and it seemed fine. Bought it in Michigan and I live in Virginia.
The dealer told me that they had done all of the regular service on the boat. V-drive oil looked like pea soup, non working blower, fuel gauge not working, found out I had no brakes on the drive home. Used the boat for a few weeks and started to notice the porpoising. Three people in the boat, no problem. 4 people in the boat and it porpoises. Put 3 people in the bow and me driving, still porpoises. Shaft packing was bad so I replaced the packing and found the bent strut. Could see the old marks on the mounts and I could tell that the motor had moved horizontally in an attempt to get the motor lined up with the bent strut. Nice "service"! Called the dealer just to ask a few questions and he was no help, I was on my own. Had my shaft checked at a machine shop, called my local dealer and got a strut/bushings and orderd my OJ 4 blade. Boat acts exactly the same. My MC dealers have changed, and the new one scratches his head if I even mention "porpoising". Without the hook I added, the bow rides high, and it leans into turns. With the hook it planes quicker, turns flatter, and drives like a MC should. To be honest, there is no telling what was done to the boat before I got it, but I've found no sign of gel coat repair.

ahhudgins
05-13-2010, 11:38 PM
I've tried moving people around in the boat and it makes no difference. Others have suggested that I had too much weight in the stern. I don't remember who it is, but another guy said that his 95 Maristar200 acts exactly the same, he just lives with it.

JimN
05-14-2010, 07:05 AM
I bought the boat 3 summers ago. I test drove the boat with only 2 people in the boat, myself and my wife and it seemed fine. Bought it in Michigan and I live in Virginia.
The dealer told me that they had done all of the regular service on the boat. V-drive oil looked like pea soup, non working blower, fuel gauge not working, found out I had no brakes on the drive home. Used the boat for a few weeks and started to notice the porpoising. Three people in the boat, no problem. 4 people in the boat and it porpoises. Put 3 people in the bow and me driving, still porpoises. Shaft packing was bad so I replaced the packing and found the bent strut. Could see the old marks on the mounts and I could tell that the motor had moved horizontally in an attempt to get the motor lined up with the bent strut. Nice "service"! Called the dealer just to ask a few questions and he was no help, I was on my own. Had my shaft checked at a machine shop, called my local dealer and got a strut/bushings and orderd my OJ 4 blade. Boat acts exactly the same. My MC dealers have changed, and the new one scratches his head if I even mention "porpoising". Without the hook I added, the bow rides high, and it leans into turns. With the hook it planes quicker, turns flatter, and drives like a MC should. To be honest, there is no telling what was done to the boat before I got it, but I've found no sign of gel coat repair.

Do you have a protractor? Measure the angle of the strut and contact MC, to find the angle of the correct part. The dealer obviously has their head hidden from sunlight and wasn't honest with you, so it's possible that it was repaired incorrectly.

JerryW
05-14-2010, 07:18 AM
I have a 2002 X-9, and had a porpoising problem with it. Had the dealer put a hook in the hull, and it helped considerably. It still porpoises under the "right conditions" - weight distribution, water conditions, speed, etc., but not as readily, or as much as before. When I was trying to diagnose the problem with my boat, from talking to dealers and searching the internet, found that one cause could be a hull that was deformed from sitting for a long time on a trailer or lift that was not set up properly for the boat. That is the bunks were too short, in the wrong position, not under the stringers, etc. Do you know the history of the boat, how it was stored?

Jesus_Freak
05-14-2010, 12:10 PM
You mean 'slope', right?:D

Yes, arctan of the slope.

ahhudgins
05-14-2010, 03:12 PM
You would think with one kid still in high school I could find a protractor in the house!! Iíll pick one up on the way home from work and check the angle. Mine could be an issue of sitting on a lift or bunk that didnít match the boat. I can believe the story the dealer told me about it being owned by an older couple who rarely used it because it was in immaculate condition (except for the lack of mechanical up keep), had the original 1995 MC cover, and it didnít even have a ski pylon in it. The trailer had no brakes because the master cylinder was rusted solid. So yes, maybe this boat spent itís entire life sitting on a lift. Iíve heard of older boats with wooden stringers changing shape, didnít think it would be an issue with a 95.

ahhudgins
05-14-2010, 09:34 PM
Hey JerryW,
I did a search for "strut angle" and ran across your post related to the your motor being WAY out of alignment when purchased new. Could it just be a coincidence that your new boat porpoised AND you find out the shaft is out of alignment and the front of the motor is maxed out on adjustment? So when did you add the hook to your hull, before shimming the strut or after? Someone dropped ball on that one when it left the factory.

I just copied your post:
"I'm not sure that the prop shaft / engine were ever properly aligned since new. I've never checked or re-aligned it since I bought it, brand new. I know, not real smart, but never had an indication that it was out of alignment, no vibration or noise, etc. I had to pull the transmission to replace the flex plate, and that's when I determined the alignment was off, and the bearings in the strut were worn unevenly, and the shaft log was worn from the angle of the prop shaft. The other problem now is that the front motor mounts are bottomed out, and the only thing I can do is shim the strut to change the angle of the prop shaft, and then raise the front and rear motor mounts a bit to get the right angle."

JerryW
05-14-2010, 11:33 PM
The hook was added in either 2003 or 2004 by the dealer. Evidently the 209 / X-9 had a porpoising problem with the early model years, and they started to add a hook to it at the factory in 2003 or 2004. After finding out that they started to add the hook because of the problem, and complaining to the dealer and to Mastercraft, they agreed to add it to mine and cover the cost.

I really do think the engine out of alignment and the porpoising are seperate issues. As others have said, porpoising is usually a weight distribution, and maybe a hull shape issue. When I've had a bunch of people in my boat and it started porpoising, I've asked a couple to get in the front, and the porpoising stopped. The other reason I believe it's weight distribution is that if I increase or decrease the speed, it will lessen or go away.

The only other boat I've had that would porpoise on occassion was a Searay I/O, and trimming it up or down would settle it down. Also, I took the boat out this evening, and with the engine, strut, transmission, etc., aligned as close to perfect as I can get it, it still porpoised some. It was at 40 mph, when I was going through a series of ripples from another boats wake. However, when I got back into smooth water, my boat smoothed out and stopped porpoising.

I really can't tell any change in how the boat rode or handled with everything being aligned properly, versus it being out of alignment. I did pick up about 50 rpm, and I'd probably attribute that to less friction or binding in the drivetrain.

Sorry for the long answer, hope it helps.

ahhudgins
05-15-2010, 08:43 AM
Thanks, I'll take any information I can get. My boat could be a hull issue, but I can not change my symptoms by moving weight around in the boat. Even if I only had two people in the boat, when I rode over a small roller it would porpoise a few times and eventually smooth out. I'm just surprised that MC is still turning out boats that have a porpoising issue, and I read a lot of posts where people are having to add a trim tab on a 2009 because of it. I'm measuring my strut angle today and I've already left two messages for my local dealer to call me back. I'm willing to spend the money on a different strut if there is a only a small chance it MIGHT fix my problem. Just trying to avoid doing all the drilling on my hull and adding something else that can break and mess up my weekend.

Thanks for everyone's input!!!!!!

JimN
05-15-2010, 09:48 AM
Thanks, I'll take any information I can get. My boat could be a hull issue, but I can not change my symptoms by moving weight around in the boat. Even if I only had two people in the boat, when I rode over a small roller it would porpoise a few times and eventually smooth out. I'm just surprised that MC is still turning out boats that have a porpoising issue, and I read a lot of posts where people are having to add a trim tab on a 2009 because of it. I'm measuring my strut angle today and I've already left two messages for my local dealer to call me back. I'm willing to spend the money on a different strut if there is a only a small chance it MIGHT fix my problem. Just trying to avoid doing all the drilling on my hull and adding something else that can break and mess up my weekend.

Thanks for everyone's input!!!!!!

Is there a way for you to shoot a video of the boat, at different speeds? Also, I haven't seen any mention of the water conditions- if it's choppy, it's not going to be a smooth ride because of the somewhat flat hull.

ahhudgins
05-15-2010, 10:20 AM
Is there a way for you to shoot a video of the boat, at different speeds? Also, I haven't seen any mention of the water conditions- if it's choppy, it's not going to be a smooth ride because of the somewhat flat hull.

I'm headed to the lake for the weekend and right now my hook is glued to the hull, so the boat works correctly. I will try to get a video of the boat with and wihout the hook, but it's going to be hard to always have enough people to weigh it down. Next weekend my skiing buddy and his family will be out town, so it may take a while to get every thing worked out. I've got one 450lb fat sac, so now will be a good time to order the 2 extra sacs I've been wanting. 99% of the time we're skiing on glass, maybe a slight ripple if the wind is blowing.

JimN
05-15-2010, 10:37 AM
I'm headed to the lake for the weekend and right now my hook is glued to the hull, so the boat works correctly. I will try to get a video of the boat with and wihout the hook, but it's going to be hard to always have enough people to weigh it down. Next weekend my skiing buddy and his family will be out town, so it may take a while to get every thing worked out. I've got one 450lb fat sac, so now will be a good time to order the 2 extra sacs I've been wanting. 99% of the time we're skiing on glass, maybe a slight ripple if the wind is blowing.

Where do you normally place that 450 lb sack? Does it porpoise with no added weight? Remember- in '95, Fat Sacks didn't exist and MC didn't design their boats for that much added weight. If you put too much extra in the bow, you could very well cause it to 'submarine' when it hits a wake or wave. More likely with a TriStar, but it could still happen.

ahhudgins
05-15-2010, 12:18 PM
Without my added hook, the boat will not porpoise with only myself and one or two other people in the boat. The bow rides very high which causes it to lean during a turn. Once I get at least 4 people in the boat, it will begin to porpoise around 32MPH and above...it varies on the size of the people. When this happens, I have moved people to the bow of the boat and it makes no difference. When I have the 450lb sac in the boat, it is either placed on top of the ski locker next to the drivers seat, or laying in front of the rear seat. I have never placed the sac in the bow.

With my hook added, I've had no issues or close calls with submarining and that's with one or two people sitting in the bow. I still have to tap the throttle a little bit when I turn the boat around and cross into my own roller to pick up a skier, but I've done that with every MC I've owned. I've just checked my strut angle, and by using my 99 cent protractor it seems that my angle is 15 degrees. In your professional opinion, if there was an option of changing my strut to another angle, do you think 7 degrees would make a huge difference? I know it makes a big difference on an I/O or an outboard. I may just have a crappy hull.

JimN
05-15-2010, 01:42 PM
Without my added hook, the boat will not porpoise with only myself and one or two other people in the boat. The bow rides very high which causes it to lean during a turn. Once I get at least 4 people in the boat, it will begin to porpoise around 32MPH and above...it varies on the size of the people. When this happens, I have moved people to the bow of the boat and it makes no difference. When I have the 450lb sac in the boat, it is either placed on top of the ski locker next to the drivers seat, or laying in front of the rear seat. I have never placed the sac in the bow.

With my hook added, I've had no issues or close calls with submarining and that's with one or two people sitting in the bow. I still have to tap the throttle a little bit when I turn the boat around and cross into my own roller to pick up a skier, but I've done that with every MC I've owned. I've just checked my strut angle, and by using my 99 cent protractor it seems that my angle is 15 degrees. In your professional opinion, if there was an option of changing my strut to another angle, do you think 7 degrees would make a huge difference? I know it makes a big difference on an I/O or an outboard. I may just have a crappy hull.

It's not that it's an option- the boat was designed with one strut- it's possible that the wrong one was installed. Each model of boat uses one part for the strut, based on the motor's mounting location and the needed thrust line. If the thrust line is to high or low, it will cause the boat's attitude to be wrong. Again, I would check with MC for the correct angle and part number. If the wrong one was installed by a dealer, they need to pull their head out of their butt.

Thrust angle makes a huge difference. That, and the actual hull design, is how a boat can be great or crappy for its intended purpose.

Think of a '70s Chevy Nova when it dog-tracks.

ahhudgins
05-17-2010, 12:45 PM
Where do you normally place that 450 lb sack? Does it porpoise with no added weight? Remember- in '95, Fat Sacks didn't exist and MC didn't design their boats for that much added weight. If you put too much extra in the bow, you could very well cause it to 'submarine' when it hits a wake or wave. More likely with a TriStar, but it could still happen.

Maybe no fat sacs in '95, but fat chics have been around for a long time....my boat says it can carry 1610 lbs!! :D

My local MC rep actually returned my email but he was no help. Said he has never heard of any other strut other than a 15 degree, and if I could change the strut I would have to do "..some major service and move the motor.." Duh! I might just be kicking a dead horse here. I'm sure I can get some pictures of the boat at different speeds with and without the hook but it will just verify that the bow rides high. My boat may have a flawed hull or something may have been done to it before I purchased it. I may just have to give in and add the wake plate.
JimN and everyone else, thanks for all of your input.

Jesus_Freak
05-17-2010, 01:11 PM
...Said he has never heard of any other strut other than a 15 degree....

I am fairly sure 15į is not the only MC angle available....

JimN
05-17-2010, 01:12 PM
Maybe no fat sacs in '95, but fat chics have been around for a long time....my boat says it can carry 1610 lbs!! :D

My local MC rep actually returned my email but he was no help. Said he has never heard of any other strut other than a 15 degree, and if I could change the strut I would have to do "..some major service and move the motor.." Duh! I might just be kicking a dead horse here. I'm sure I can get some pictures of the boat at different speeds with and without the hook but it will just verify that the bow rides high. My boat may have a flawed hull or something may have been done to it before I purchased it. I may just have to give in and add the wake plate.
JimN and everyone else, thanks for all of your input.

I'm in Milwaukee- I know all about fat chicks.

if you talk to the local MC rep again, have him check the part number and specs for direct drive vs V drive boats.

TMCNo1
05-17-2010, 02:06 PM
According to Eric @ OJ Props, MasterCraft's current strut supplier, the strut angle is now and always has been 16 degrees. Back in the early days when Rob Shirley engineered the PowerSlot, the drop, not the degree was increased to allow running the larger prop on the PowerSlot.

94PS190
05-17-2010, 04:41 PM
Not much help here, but my first DD was a 84 Ski Supreme, porposed terribly at WOT. A few sand bags in the bow help a lot, but didn't solve the problem.

ahhudgins
05-17-2010, 05:32 PM
I'm in Milwaukee- I know all about fat chicks.

if you talk to the local MC rep again, have him check the part number and specs for direct drive vs V drive boats.

I won't talk with my local rep again. The first time I called him was when I was troubleshooting my intermittent starting problem and I asked him if I could purchase the electrical schematic for the GM EFI system. He said, and I quote "There are no schematics...we don't need them any way". I called my former MC rep and he said I could order it from skidim.com and I could even come to his shop and copy the pages I needed. I went on line and had the manual in 2 days. The second time I talked to the rep was about adding a fiberglass hook to my transom because of the porpoising. His answer? "Never heard of such a thing". My former rep was a joy to deal with but I won't give you 2 cents for the new guys.
My V-drive does have the 1.5/1 transmission with the 14" prop.

ahhudgins
05-17-2010, 05:46 PM
According to Eric @ OJ Props, MasterCraft's current strut supplier, the strut angle is now and always has been 16 degrees. Back in the early days when Rob Shirley engineered the PowerSlot, the drop, not the degree was increased to allow running the larger prop on the PowerSlot.

Hey, I did pretty good coming up with 15 degrees using my 99 cent Walmart protractor and a folded piece of paper!!:D

That would make sense to use a deeper strut when using a larger prop. I would have to assume then if I had the wrong strut, my prop would be hitting my hull?