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MCVOLS
03-24-2010, 10:21 PM
I had the dealer winterize my MCX last fall, and now they want $200 to de-winterize. I have a couple of questions, as the MCX is a good bit different from my old reliable 351w.

Most of the stuff is pretty straight forward, but here are my questions:

1. are the knock sensors just a simple plug-in to the block plug (looks like it)
2. the hoses coming off the manifolds, do they simply connect to each other? Are they routed any certain way? (just laying on top of engine now) see first pic
3. am I correct to assume the intake from lake goes on the bottom in second picture below?
4. anything else I should look at just to be sure? (changed all fluids in fall, will change impeller)

Thanks in advance.

east tx skier
03-24-2010, 10:59 PM
1. I haven't looked too close to the MCX, but the knock sensor on my father in law's Indmar Chevy is part of the port side engine drain plug.

2. The manifold hoses connect to one another.

3. Reasonably certain that's correct, but won't swear to it.

4. Do you have a list of what they did?

Make sure your flame arrestor is clean. I change my plugs in the spring. It's not all that different than what you did with your old engine. Just a little backwards. ;)

vision
03-24-2010, 11:31 PM
Maybe I am over reacting, but OMG!!! You must be kidding. They actually left your boat like this so they could charge you to "de-winterize" it?

I have a 2008 MCX as well and you are correct. Knock sensors on both block plugs. Manifold cooling hoses just connect together. Lower manifold connection is the fresh water inlet.

Make sure the tranny cooler screen is clean. If you have a heater or shower, make sure the hoses are connected. Check the exhaust tips for debris or nesting animals.

For comparison, I "winterize" and "dewinterize" my MCX 6 to 8 times a winter since we ride all year. Takes about 10 minutes to winterize an MCX excluding an oil change.

For comparison, I have had our dealer winterize our boat in the past. They leave the boat ready to drop in the water and go. I would think any decent shop would also leave the boat ready to go. Just my 2 cents and perhaps I just have an exceptional dealer.

Chicago190
03-24-2010, 11:42 PM
If I didn't use anti-freeze in my engine, I would leave all the hoses disconnected. Better safe than sorry to ensure that all the water is drained out.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by the knock sensor plugs in. If the actual sensor is installed correctly in the block (I do snug, don't want to overtighten it, but make sure it doesn't leak), then all you do is clip the connector to the actual sensor.

Raw water intake hose goes on the bottom.

I change plugs and fuel filter in the spring. Maintenance interval on the fuel filter might not be every year, but its cheap insurance. Grease steering cable and rudder port. Check tire pressure, brake fluid, and wheel bearings. That's about all I do beyond what you're already doing.

MCVOLS
03-25-2010, 11:04 AM
Thanks for the help. I was not too concerned about the dealer leaving hoses unhooked, as that is what I did with older boats.

On this one, the knock sensors are new, as are the manifold hoses (great idea, as I had grown accustom to having to diver the water to the bilge to keep the carpet from getting wet).

Do the manifold hoses have any kind of shut-off at the manifold, or does the water circulate through them constantly?

Now that I see how it all works, I feel safer doing my own winterization next fall, just didn't want to risk it the first time on the new engine.

erkoehler
03-25-2010, 11:13 AM
Just as an FYI, they may not gaurantee the work on the winterize if they don't perform the summerize.

I know that if we (Chicago MasterCraft) winterize a boat and we do not summerize it we do not gaurantee the winterize. Reason being that we have no way to tell when it was summerized, or if it was done properly.

MCVOLS
03-25-2010, 03:26 PM
Not being a smart a** or anything, but how can you not honor your winterization just because you don't do the de-winterization?

Are you saying that if a block cracks, but the owner has tried to crank it and run the boat before they bring it to you saying it is cracked, you don't know when they may have de-winterized, therefore you are not liable?

cbryan70
03-25-2010, 03:28 PM
Not being a smart a** or anything, but how can you not honor your winterization just because you don't do the de-winterization?

Are you saying that if a block cracks, but the owner has tried to crank it and run the boat before they bring it to you saying it is cracked, you don't know when they may have de-winterized, therefore you are not liable?

Yes basically if they do the winterize and never do the summerize and the block cracks they do not know when the boat was 'summerized', the owner could have ran the boat in Jan and never re-winterized the boat and cracked the block from neglect...that wouldnt be the dealers fault

erkoehler
03-25-2010, 03:40 PM
Not being a smart a** or anything, but how can you not honor your winterization just because you don't do the de-winterization?

Are you saying that if a block cracks, but the owner has tried to crank it and run the boat before they bring it to you saying it is cracked, you don't know when they may have de-winterized, therefore you are not liable?

Yes, the problem being that if we get a super warm week in early March there are people that will jump the gun and summerize. If I did the winterize and they do the summerize they may summerize March 1 and then we can get a cold snap March 15. Now, if I don't do the summerize how do I know exactly what time period I should be liable for? Now, their block is cracked on March 15, but they don't find out until they go to use the boat again on April 1 at which point they have a major problem and call me stating I didn't winterize properly.

Sorry that sounds confusing, but basically if I can't verify when the boat was sumerized or that it was done properly and wasn't done prematurely then I can't be liable for the damage.

vision
03-25-2010, 03:59 PM
My dealer simply says if you run the boat, it is officially "dewinterized". If you go to start your boat for the first time in the Spring since they winterized it, and there is a problem involving improper winterization, it is their fault. No argument. If you drop your boat in the water and the temps drop below freezing again, and you do not take the necessary steps, it is your fault.

Seems pretty simple to me?

MCVOLS
03-25-2010, 04:57 PM
Yes, those situations make perfect sense.

I have not run the boat all winter, it has been kept inside, and I don't expect to have any more hard freezes in TN to be concerned about. I am just wanting to avoid the dealer cost of connecting a few hoses and putting plugs back in (if that is all they will be doing). The quote I got to de-winterize was almost the same as the cost to winterize.

Chicago190
03-25-2010, 06:19 PM
Yes, the problem being that if we get a super warm week in early March there are people that will jump the gun and summerize. If I did the winterize and they do the summerize they may summerize March 1 and then we can get a cold snap March 15. Now, if I don't do the summerize how do I know exactly what time period I should be liable for? Now, their block is cracked on March 15, but they don't find out until they go to use the boat again on April 1 at which point they have a major problem and call me stating I didn't winterize properly.

Sorry that sounds confusing, but basically if I can't verify when the boat was sumerized or that it was done properly and wasn't done prematurely then I can't be liable for the damage.

What is to stop the customer from winterizing the boat and then bringing it in for dewinterization, and subsequently claiming a cracked block?

Seems much easier to me to just note engine hours at winterization. If someone comes in with a cracked block and there are more hours on the engine, then you know they cracked the block.

erkoehler
03-25-2010, 10:46 PM
What is to stop the customer from winterizing the boat and then bringing it in for dewinterization, and subsequently claiming a cracked block?

Seems much easier to me to just note engine hours at winterization. If someone comes in with a cracked block and there are more hours on the engine, then you know they cracked the block.

We do track the hours, and our summerize is $119 vs. $249.99+accessories for winterization.

JohnE
03-26-2010, 08:56 AM
Seems much easier to me to just note engine hours at winterization. If someone comes in with a cracked block and there are more hours on the engine, then you know they cracked the block.


That makes sense. The only reason I can see for a dealer to summerize is for the fee.

Like you said, if they crack a block by running the boat too early and then getting a freeze, then they can just rewinterize and bring it to the dealer crying foul. (Unless the dealer tracks hours like Eric said.....)

VOLFAN
03-26-2010, 09:04 AM
do it yourself (winterize and dewinterize) and save money on both ends

east tx skier
03-26-2010, 11:30 AM
Thanks for the help. I was not too concerned about the dealer leaving hoses unhooked, as that is what I did with older boats.

On this one, the knock sensors are new, as are the manifold hoses (great idea, as I had grown accustom to having to diver the water to the bilge to keep the carpet from getting wet).

Do the manifold hoses have any kind of shut-off at the manifold, or does the water circulate through them constantly?

Now that I see how it all works, I feel safer doing my own winterization next fall, just didn't want to risk it the first time on the new engine.

For next time, if you winterize yourself, take a look at how those hoses connect to the manifold. If the presumably barbed fitting is restrictive compared to the drain hole size on the manifold, I would be tempted to remove the hose at the manifold every so often and make sure that restrictive point isn't getting clogged up with rust. If you are winterizing and dewinterizing several times because you're riding during the off season, this is not necessary ever time. But if you only winterize once per year, I'd be worried about any narrow channels in the cooling chain becoming clogged.

east tx skier
03-26-2010, 11:31 AM
That makes sense. The only reason I can see for a dealer to summerize is for the fee.

Like you said, if they crack a block by running the boat too early and then getting a freeze, then they can just rewinterize and bring it to the dealer crying foul. (Unless the dealer tracks hours like Eric said.....)

Of course, let's say the customer was doing some stereo work over the winter and had the key turned on. The hours are ticking away. Eric, are you guys taking it off the meter or the engine?

erkoehler
03-26-2010, 11:34 AM
Of course, let's say the customer was doing some stereo work over the winter and had the key turned on. The hours are ticking away. Eric, are you guys taking it off the meter or the engine?

we take all hour readings off the engine on the older boats.

jrhollow
03-26-2010, 01:22 PM
Eric - So you charge $119 to hook up a hose, connect the battery and turn the key? Even though you check the hour meter, you won't guarantee your work...unreal.

I have my boat winterized at Midwest and they give you a nice sheet of paper that explains summarization. The hardest part is connecting the battery and putting the plug in. Great people to work with.

vision
03-26-2010, 02:03 PM
More than the money it is the time.

When my dealer winterizes my boat and leaves it ready to drop in the water, I make only 2 trips to the dealer. One to drop off the boat for winterization, and one to pick it up.

If I had to take it back to the dealer before I could use it again, now I have to find the time to make another trip and scheduled it when hopefully they can do it while I am there. I am 90 miles from my dealer and I would guess that many owners are similarly not next door to their dealership.

I am not sure why not leave the boat ready to go? I understand that it is easier and less expensive to leave the plugs out, hoses disconnected, etc. I certainly leave my boat disconnected when I winterize it.

But if I was expending the time and money to have a professional winterize my boat, I would be disappointed if multiple trips were involved.

Chicago190
03-26-2010, 03:03 PM
Vision,

I still disagree that I want the boat to be absolutely ready to go once winterization is done. First, as I said, I would prefer that the hoses are left undone. This is especially important in the colder states, where any water that may drip out over time could potentially ruin a block. Second, I prefer to replace the impeller in the spring. I don't want my brand new impeller to have some of the vanes oriented in the same position for 4-5 months without lubrication. Third, obviously I want the battery disconnected.

CiscoStu
03-30-2010, 01:16 PM
I agree with doing it yourself... although I did have the dealer do the winterize for my first winter with the boat, I asked 100 questions about what they were doing, why they were doing it, how to un-do it, etc. I used it as a learning opportunity so that I could do it myself.

The biggest problem I have with taking it to the dealer twice/year is the 16-year old kid they have running the boats in and out of the shop... One small "rub" against my boat, or any of the 300 things that could happen to it on the lot, and it's more time (and money) spent without my boat.

I also don't 100% trust them - how many times have you talked to one guy at the shop about something specific, but then when you talk to the next guy, you get a completely different story? For example, I was asking about a summer oil change. One guy says to do it when you summerize the boat to have fresh oil for the season, another guy at the same dealer says the oil change at winterize is good enough.

My point is, if I do it myself, I am 100% sure what exactly happened and why. I am 100% repsonsible, so if something wrecks because I didn't do it right, it's my fault and cost.

And I agree with Chicago190 - the 30 minutes it takes to go through your boat in the spring (which you should do anyway) is time well spent. Up here we get deep freezing for weeks at a time, followed by very warm weather. Quite often when it warms up, you will see some drops under the boat from where some water has thawed and come out of the plug hole. If it happens there, it could happen inside the block as well. Having the hoses disconnected lets it come out.

FWIW, my dealer did leave all the hoses unplugged as well...

Thrall
03-30-2010, 01:33 PM
I had the dealer winterize my MCX last fall, and now they want $200 to de-winterize. I have a couple of questions, as the MCX is a good bit different from my old reliable 351w.

Most of the stuff is pretty straight forward, but here are my questions:

1. are the knock sensors just a simple plug-in to the block plug (looks like it)YES
2. the hoses coming off the manifolds, do they simply connect to each other? YES Are they routed any certain way? Under the engine on mine (just laying on top of engine now) see first pic
3. am I correct to assume the intake from lake goes on the bottom in second picture below?YES
4. anything else I should look at just to be sure? (changed all fluids in fall, will change impeller)Yeah, looks like impeller is the original, no paint missing on the screws. Just check the rest of the hoses, do you have a htr or shower that could be disconnected? Just fire it up in the driveway and check for leaks...will tell you if you missed a hose or something and check tightness of ALL hose clamps, alot of them will loosen up a little after the hose takes a set under the clamps for a couple years.


Thanks in advance.

Being an 08 and you just got it, I'd go thru and check every screw and bolt you can find, boat and trailer. My 06 was almost new, 48hrs, when I bought it last year and I've tightened hundreds of bolts and screws on it this winter and am starting a pretty good collection of "mystery hardware" from around the boat.
Everything from trailer bunks to seats, hoseclamps, tower bolts, etc.

vision
03-30-2010, 03:08 PM
Vision,

I still disagree that I want the boat to be absolutely ready to go once winterization is done. First, as I said, I would prefer that the hoses are left undone. This is especially important in the colder states, where any water that may drip out over time could potentially ruin a block. Second, I prefer to replace the impeller in the spring. I don't want my brand new impeller to have some of the vanes oriented in the same position for 4-5 months without lubrication. Third, obviously I want the battery disconnected.

Chicago190,

Definitely agree on the battery and I should have been clear that my dealer does disconnect the battery.

I change my impeller, and oil, before my first winterization in the Fall, run the boat to make sure there are no leaks, then drain all the fluid. So hopefully, my impeller is happy.

As for leaving hoses disconnected. If I am the one doing the winterization, absolutely. But, I guess I have confidence that if you winterize with AF, and do it correctly, then your boat motor should be no more susceptible to freeze damage than your car which sits outside all winter? Again, certainly much more work to leave it closed.

But, I do understand that in areas where its exceptionally cold, near the limit of non-toxic anti-freeze, that you would have no choice but to leave everything apart.

Thrall brings up an excellent point as well. I think every bolt in my tower was loose at the first run this year!

JohnE
03-30-2010, 07:18 PM
Eric - So you charge $119 to hook up a hose, connect the battery and turn the key? Even though you check the hour meter, you won't guarantee your work...unreal.

I have my boat winterized at Midwest and they give you a nice sheet of paper that explains summarization. The hardest part is connecting the battery and putting the plug in. Great people to work with.

I can't imagine a dealer touching your boat for under $120 or so. Unless something is extended as a good faith gesture. You might have no idea what it takes to run a business.