195 vs 197

[wheelerd]

Is the 190/195 hull (beginning in 2001 on when the EVO design was introduced) the same as the 197 hull introduced in 2002?
If so, is this still the same hull in the current 197s?

[Hammer]

The 2000 and 2001 195 hull is the same as the 95-97 hull, 98-01 190s are the EVO hulls. The 197 hulls are not the same and they added the "hook" to it some time, can't remember the year. The 01 x-5 is the 95-97 hull also.

[erkoehler]

The 2003-2010 prostar 197 uses the same running surface.

[wheelerd]

The 2000 and 2001 195 hull is the same as the 95-97 hull, 98-01 190s are the EVO hulls. The 197 hulls are not the same and they added the "hook" to it some time, can't remember the year. The 01 x-5 is the 95-97 hull also.

Thanks Hammer. I reread a couple of the MC history threads here on TT and yes, the 195/X5 is the same as the PS 95-97.
I noticed though that C36 indicates that the EVO hull appeared in 2001. The 98 - 00 hull was called the ProWake design.
http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=29236&page=2

[JohnE]

No first hand experience here, but the 98 - 2000 were not good hulls is my understanding. Weren't those the ones that would experience chine lock?

[wheelerd]

Chine lock? 'Splain that.

[TMCNo1]

No first hand experience here, but the 98 - 2000 were not good hulls is my understanding. Weren't those the ones that would experience chine lock?


Is that anything like "Lip Lock"?:rolleyes::D

[east tx skier]

The hook on the 197 was added to 02 Tournament Team Boats and all production boats 2003 and forward. The non TT 2002 197s are the ones without hooks. Like Eric said, running surface is the same. I recall hearing that some bow weight was reduced topside (like from the seats, etc.) in later years maybe 2007 and forward). 2006 and forward no longer had the wedge shaped rudder. Some earlier boats have opted to upgrade to the more rounded rudder.

[Chicago190]

Chine lock? 'Splain that.

When turning hard under power the boat rotates over onto the chine and gets "locked" there so to speak i.e. steering does nothing to change the attitude or course of the boat. The only way to stop chine lock is to throttle back to change the attitude of the boat relative to the water, which luckily is probably the reaction of most people who experience chine lock.

I don't know the physics of it exactly, just what happens and how to solve it.

[east tx skier]

The 98--2000 190, as they exist in the field with the foiled rudder, are not going to chine lock/chine walk. The story about the 98 ending up on the beach at the AWSA test was extremely early in production. I have only heard of one 98 out there that didn't have a foiled rudder from the factory, although that doesn't mean there was not more than that one.

Bottom line, they took care of it.

You'd have a better chance of doing it by loading up the bow of a 197 (or comparable open bow boat) and starting off your hole shot in a tight turn.

[TT197]

Wrong the hydro rails fixed the chine lock. The winged rudder added lift to the back of boat same as hook in the hull. The problem at the time was it buried the bow in the water and slowed the boat. We did not have strong motors in these years i.e. LTR thur fore slow boat!
If want chine lock have someone stand right behind you while driving and turn hard to the right.
FYI the TT boats are made in different models then ths stock 197/190 they colored black to seperate them from the stock green ones.

This from someone who has owned everyone of this boats;)

[Sodar]

Wrong the hydro rails fixed the chine lock. The winged rudder added lift to the back of boat same as hook in the hull. The problem at the time was it buried the bow in the water and slowed the boat. We did not have strong motors in these years i.e. LTR thur fore slow boat!
If want chine lock have someone stand right behind you while driving and turn hard to the right.
FYI the TT boats are made in different models then ths stock 197/190 they colored black to seperate them from the stock green ones.

This from someone who has owned everyone of this boats;)


Cool info, but I don't understand the person behind you and turn right... wouldn't a left turn cause the chine lock?

[east tx skier]

Wrong the hydro rails fixed the chine lock. The winged rudder added lift to the back of boat same as hook in the hull. The problem at the time was it buried the bow in the water and slowed the boat. We did not have strong motors in these years i.e. LTR thur fore slow boat!
If want chine lock have someone stand right behind you while driving and turn hard to the right.
FYI the TT boats are made in different models then ths stock 197/190 they colored black to seperate them from the stock green ones.

This from someone who has owned everyone of this boats;)

So they didn't bother to offer up a fix for the chine lock until the hydrorails were offered in 99 is what you're saying? Why did the foiled rudder and 4th skeg show up some time after they started initial production (not in the brochure)?

I realize that the foiled rudder, even in 98, is set up to add lift, but no matter how much lift it adds, it can only do so up to a point. And that point not going to be with the horizontal stabilizer/rudder under the water. Seems to me like it was intended to be a fix in 98, even if it was not an ideal one, and was, as you suggest, replaced by a better one in 99.

Just as a side question, since you owned both boats, how much did they increase the angle of the rudder foils for 99? I recall reading that they changed the angle to match that of the prop shaft in 99.

Also, how, exactly, do the hydrorails serve to prevent chine lock? Increased width? More lateral hull surface area?

It's nice to have a resident expert on these boats. The only thing we ever seem to get from MC is that the problem never existed. I guess they were more forthcoming with their Pro Tournament/Tournament Team guys.

By the way, another way to encourage/avoid chine lock is to do the turning start (or avoid doing it) in fairly shallow water. Easier to get that arse end pushed out of the water a bit more in that situation.

[east tx skier]

Thread bumped. Hoping for answers to these questions.

[wheelerd]

Has anyone here actually experienced or seen "chine lock?" (Not doubting it exists -- just curious.)

[east tx skier]

Has anyone here actually experienced or seen "chine lock?" (Not doubting it exists -- just curious.)

J. Patterson does. And he's got a TriStar 190 like yours. :eek:

Link (http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=4305)

[captain planet]

When turning hard under power the boat rotates over onto the chine and gets "locked" there so to speak i.e. steering does nothing to change the attitude or course of the boat. The only way to stop chine lock is to throttle back to change the attitude of the boat relative to the water, which luckily is probably the reaction of most people who experience chine lock.

I don't know the physics of it exactly, just what happens and how to solve it.

I have a 1998 Anniversary 190 and have owned it since 1999. When I bought the boat I assisted/observed adding the hydro rails on the boat and was given a new rudder which was the 1999 upgrade. The rails add a little lateral running surface at the stern of the boat. I have been told this helped with the wake. The rudder foils on the new rudder matched the angle of the prop shaft. The original rudder foils were flat. I was told this caused some of the thrust from the prop to be deflected back up and did undesirable changes to the wake.

Anyway, while working the boat show this year I met the TT driver that had the 98 chine lock (oddly enough I've known him for several years and didn't know he was the guy that had this happen). IIRC the hull upgrade in 99 did a lot to help the problem. Pre 99 upgrade, if you weight the front of the boat heavy and try to turn under certain deceleration/acceleration conditions, you may get chine lock. I have owned my boat for 12 years now and have had it loaded every different way imaginable and have never had it happen to me. I've had 4 people sitting in the front of my boat and have never had it happen.

Eastie, I hadn't heard about that 98 that chine locked didn't have the rudder foils? I'll have to ask the TT guy if he remembers if it had foils on it or not.

TT197, my boat has the LT-1 in it which is lighter and more powerful (350 hp) than the LTR, maybe that has a something to do with it?

[east tx skier]

Eastie, I hadn't heard about that 98 that chine locked didn't have the rudder foils? I'll have to ask the TT guy if he remembers if it had foils on it or not.


I have seen at least one reference on here from an owner of a 98 190 that was an early production that did not have the foil on the rudder. It has always been my understanding that the foiled rudder and 4th skeg were released at some point after production and deliveries had commenced under the name "Positive Pressure Tracking System" The WSM boat review notes that their boat did not have the PPTS installed.

It was further always my understanding as well that the hydrorails had more to do with softening the wake than with chine lock. I've been wrong before. But it would be nice to have a better explanation of it.

/edit. Quote from WSM from an older Post.

The Positive Pressure Tracking System was developed by MasterCraft design consultants Rob Shirley and Kris LaPoint to work with the 190's new ProWake hull.
The system consists of a four-fin keel configuration and a unique dual-plane rudder design. Research and testing have shown that a four-fin system, when used in combination with MasterCraft's new rudder design, provides significant increases in turning stability, tracking ability and skiing performance. The system works by maintaining positive water pressure on key surfaces of the boat's underwater running gear.
WaterSki was able to test-drive one of the first production 190s to be equipped with the Positive Pressure Tracking System. We felt that the new system allowed the boat to remain flatter during turns and also enhances tracking and towing stability.

[east tx skier]

Clarification on wing angles. The specific numbers I've read on wing angles was that they were 4 degrees in 1998 and 17 degrees in 1999. At 4 degrees, it's hard to say that it did too much for lift or otherwise.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, it'd be nice if MC, twelve years after the fact, could just tell us what was going on. The statute of limitations has long since run. :)

Going back to my first post that dragged me back into this nonsense ... you not likely going to make a 98 chine walk at this point.

[captain planet]

Here is a bit more info I found interesting.



Seems, from reading this, that the 98 rudder held the arse end down. In 99, the angled rudder did just the opposite and the hydrorails took over the task of keeping it from chine walking. But the specific numbers I've read on wing angles was that they were 4 degrees in 1998 and 17 degrees in 1999. At 4 degrees, it's hard to say that it did too much for lift or otherwise.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, it'd be nice if MC, twelve years after the fact, could just tell us what was going on. The statute of limitations has long since run. :)

Going back to my first post that dragged me back into this nonsense ... you not likely going to make a 98 chine walk at this point.

12 years of boating with mine and I have yet to have this happen. Now that I know what it takes to make it chine lock (if still possible) I'll try to see if I can get mine to do the same. Although at this point as hard as I have driven my boat shortly after I got it, if it was going to do it, it would have already have happened.

[east tx skier]

12 years of boating with mine and I have yet to have this happen. Now that I know what it takes to make it chine lock (if still possible) I'll try to see if I can get mine to do the same. Although at this point as hard as I have driven my boat shortly after I got it, if it was going to do it, it would have already have happened.

Shallow water seems to be something that can help or hurt the situation depending on what you're trying to achieve.

[TT197]

the prop shaft is right
We tryed one on the winged rudder on a 205 and used a longer tiller arm on the rudder shaft.
worked pretty good on 205 but same problem slowed the boat even with a LT-1

[TT197]

You what chine lock put two people on the right side of the boat behind the driver seat.
Go down the lake 34MPH and turn hard right.
How did they cure the cam shaft lash is your 350HP LT-1?
All ours had to have new cam shafts put in them
Try this with a 08-10 responce LXI and hang on!!

[east tx skier]

Who is the prop shaft? It's right? Who's left?

Can you please explain your earlier post (like 3 back) a little better.

[TT197]

I meant the shaft angle and the wing on the rudder were the same angle

the secert to make it work was the longer tiller arm this also fix also works well on the 2001 and 2002 190/197. If you look at the tiller arm there are 2 holes in it if you use the one that make the arm longer it will help in low speed turns.

[east tx skier]

I meant the shaft angle and the wing on the rudder were the same angle

the secert to make it work was the longer tiller arm this also fix also works well on the 2001 and 2002 190/197. If you look at the tiller arm there are 2 holes in it if you use the one that make the arm longer it will help in low speed turns.

I believe the angle update was as of 99 unless as PT/TT drive, you got something different.

We have a pretty good deal of trouble turning my father in law's 98 205 to one side versus the other. I doubt he cares, but is that an issue of too short of a tiller arm? Remember, we're talking traditionally pan shaped, non foiled rudder on the 205 of that year.

[JohnE]

It was explained to me that the chine lock issue was the result of the hull being designed symmetrically. And ICBW, but I thought the first 1-2 years of the evo hull suffered from this. And after that the hull design became assymetrical. That with a symmetrical hull, the rudder won't do what it should under certain load conditions. ie. tight hard turn. But I might be confused, it may have been the 98-00's. I also heard that MC didn't believe or recognize the problem until it happened to one of the higher up's in the company and he ran a boat aground.

[JohnE]

I have confirmed that the early evo's had the chine lock issue. I don't think the 98 - 00 did. Just a terrible hull by some standards.

[east tx skier]

I have confirmed that the early evo's had the chine lock issue. I don't think the 98 - 00 did. Just a terrible hull by some standards.

Well, Capt. Planet's post above seems to indicate that he has spoken to the driver that had the boat go on the beach. What about that?

[captain planet]

Well, Capt. Planet's post above seems to indicate that he has spoken to the driver that had the boat go on the beach. What about that?

I got a reply on this. When the chine lock happened, the boat was heavily weighted on the driver side of the boat and the driver made a right hand turn. Upon the turn the boat locked and was unable to steer until brought off plane. The change in the wing on the rudder corrected this problem and the problem was eliminated.

[east tx skier]

I got a reply on this. When the chine lock happened, the boat was heavily weighted on the driver side of the boat and the driver made a right hand turn. Upon the turn the boat locked and was unable to steer until brought off plane. The change in the wing on the rudder corrected this problem and the problem was eliminated.

So the wing was, at least in 98 a fix for the chine lock. Glad we got that cleared up. :rolleyes: :)