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wheelhorsepuller
02-17-2010, 09:02 PM
I bought a 77 mastercraft boat that I am going to restore and this is my first v drive boat.This boat came with a new motorand I was told it was wrong rotation wondering what I need to do to fix problem and what rotation the motor should be for this boat it is a 351 windsor any help would be nice thanks James

thatsmrmastercraft
02-17-2010, 09:31 PM
Welcome to Team Talk.

It sounds to me that you need to sell or trade your engine for the correct rotation. To accommodate the change in rotation would be opening a big can of worms. .

Is the engine in the boat? Has it been operated?

I'm sure someone else will come along with some more ideas.

americanskierJim
02-17-2010, 09:51 PM
Hello and Welcome to team talk Wheelhorsepuller. I agree with Mr. MC with you'r motor. The guy's on here are very knowledgeable and glad to help you out where they can. I am also doing a resto on a "80" LTD I have had alot of great input with my boat. Good luck hope you can get it figured out.

JLeuck64
02-17-2010, 10:08 PM
LMAO!!! All the boats of that era have reverse rotation engines...

thatsmrmastercraft
02-17-2010, 10:33 PM
I bought a 77 mastercraft boat that I am going to restore and this is my first v drive boat.This boat came with a new motorand I was told it was wrong rotation wondering what I need to do to fix problem and what rotation the motor should be for this boat it is a 351 windsor any help would be nice thanks James

LMAO!!! All the boats of that era have reverse rotation engines...

OK JL, perhaps you can enlighten us with all your wisdom. Sounds like wheelhorespuller got a boat with either an automotive 351 or a marine engine with standard rotation. Perhaps I should have asked him for a few more details, but you seem to have all the answers..........so go ahead, enlighten us.:D

thatsmrmastercraft
02-17-2010, 10:37 PM
OK, I've got that out of my system.

wheelhorsepuller...............give us some more details about your engine. Do you have any history? Have you had it in the water?

TMCNo1
02-17-2010, 10:48 PM
I bought a 77 mastercraft boat that I am going to restore and this is my first v drive boat.This boat came with a new motorand I was told it was wrong rotation wondering what I need to do to fix problem and what rotation the motor should be for this boat it is a 351 windsor any help would be nice thanks James


Welcome, but remember, the 1977 model boat you say you have is a "Direct Drive", not a "V-Drive".:twocents:

wheelhorsepuller
02-17-2010, 11:09 PM
I have no history on motor just what I was told buy the guy I bought it from he told me that he bought the motor from a boat repair shop was suppose to be for the boat and put it in and it ran backwards so he pulled it out to take it back and the shop had closed its doors he gave me the paperwork on the motor and all it say is reman 351 marine engine thats all the info I have

thatsmrmastercraft
02-17-2010, 11:14 PM
Sounds like we need someone to tell you how to determine the rotation of your engine. This forum is full of people with plenty of answers - some of them are even right. Someone will be by with further advice.

While we are waiting, how about some pictures?

wheelhorsepuller
02-17-2010, 11:29 PM
I willtry to get somepics as soon as the snow stops.And the rotation of the motor is clockwise what Iam wondering is what I need to change to run other direction I was told cam but wanted more info on it

thatsmrmastercraft
02-17-2010, 11:40 PM
This should help you determine which engine you have:

Engine Rotation

Boat Engine RotationRotation is always determined by looking at the flywheel end of an inboard engine. The flywheel of a standard rotation engine turns left, or counter-clockwise, when viewed from the flywheel. The flywheel of a reverse rotation engine turns right, or clockwise, when viewed from the flywheel. Most single engine inboard and I/O boats use a standard rotation (L.H.) counter-clockwise engine. Use the illustration to the right, supplied by API MARINE, to help understand engine rotation.

If your boat has twin engines, counter rotating engines have long been used to neutralize propeller torque which improves vessel handling and performance. The port, left side engine, is the standard rotation engine. The starboard, right side engine, is a reverse or counter rotation engine. Sometimes it is not possible to view the flywheel so engine rotation will have to be viewed from the front of the engine. Just remember to reverse what you see at the front of the engine so it agrees with flywheel rotation. These are the guidelines for engines mounted in the normal fore and aft position with the flywheel closer to the stern of the boat. Some older boats used a flywheel forward configuration that can change the rules. Also, some ski boats with single engines, mostly Ford 302/351 power plants, used reverse rotation engines so it is a good idea to determine your engine's rotation before visiting the parts department to avoid error.

Due to the higher production costs and the advent of fuel injected gasoline engines bristling with computer modules and sensors, engine manufacturers discontinued reverse rotation engines in most cases. Since then, engine outputs have been handled by reduction gears capable of reversing engine output rotation. Both engines are standard left hand rotation but the reverse reduction gear changes the starboard engine output to right hand rotation. This is a much simpler, less expensive way to handle the need for opposite rotating engines.

Starter motors, when mounted forward of the flywheel, will turn clockwise (R.H.) to start a standard rotation (L.H.) counter-clockwise motor. Starters mounted aft of the flywheel will turn counter-clockwise (L.H.) to start the same engine. Everything is just the opposite when speaking of a reverse rotation (R.H.) clockwise engine.

Double D
02-17-2010, 11:52 PM
Welcome, but remember, the 1977 model boat you say you have is a "Direct Drive", not a "V-Drive".:twocents:

I caught that one too, just a little late on this thread.

MC76restore
02-18-2010, 11:27 AM
im kind of in the same boat (excuse the pun)

IDK if the trans will work properly in with that motor, but if it does i would put a reverse rotating prop on it and call it a day.

I just got a 76 with a clockwise rotating motor in it that is seized. im looking for a used replacement motor and was wondering if i could run a counter clockwise (AKA a standard) rotating motor with my current transmission. anybody know? (yes, i realize that i would need a different prop.)

M-Funf
02-18-2010, 02:12 PM
I think the offset of the prop shaft with the rudder will cause problems (pulling one direction...hard) for you, but I can't be certain.

'76 and '77 should be clockwise rotation as viewed from behind the boat. You can get clockwise rotation motors, just not as easy to find.

Trade your motor for a RH rotation?

MC76restore
02-19-2010, 09:17 AM
I think the offset of the prop shaft with the rudder will cause problems (pulling one direction...hard) for you, but I can't be certain.

'76 and '77 should be clockwise rotation as viewed from behind the boat. You can get clockwise rotation motors, just not as easy to find.

Trade your motor for a RH rotation?

would it pull to the side going forward or just in reverse? ill have to look at my boat after work, but i thought my rudder was right in the center of the hull.

either way my main question is will the trans work ok spinning the opposite direction or will i need to change out some parts? if its an issue, what parts would need to be replaced?

Skipper
02-19-2010, 09:49 AM
im kind of in the same boat (excuse the pun)

IDK if the trans will work properly in with that motor, but if it does i would put a reverse rotating prop on it and call it a day.

I just got a 76 with a clockwise rotating motor in it that is seized. im looking for a used replacement motor and was wondering if i could run a counter clockwise (AKA a standard) rotating motor with my current transmission. anybody know? (yes, i realize that i would need a different prop.)

The Velvet Drive transmission can be used for right or left hand rotation engines. It requires that you remove the transmission and rotate the pump 180 degrees.

If your rudder is centered on the boat, you won't have an adverse effect. Understand that you feel a difference in handling when operating a right hand vs. left hand rotation boat, even when they are designed to operate that way. In most cases with the older boats it is perfectly acceptable to swap from right hand rotation to left hand rotation.

Something else to consider. Skidim offers a great engine/transmission package with an upgrade to an EFI engine and 1.23:1 transmission. The engine is left hand rotation but with the transmission the prop turns to the right. Absolutely great way to go if you are interested.

Skipper
02-19-2010, 10:00 AM
I bought a 77 mastercraft boat that I am going to restore and this is my first v drive boat.This boat came with a new motorand I was told it was wrong rotation wondering what I need to do to fix problem and what rotation the motor should be for this boat it is a 351 windsor any help would be nice thanks James

Friend, you don't have a problem because your engine is "reverse rotation". Just means the drive shaft spins clockwise, not counter-clockwise. In most automobiles, the engine spins counter-clockwise.

This is only an issue when you need to do certain items of maintenance or if you buy a prop. Definately need a right hand rotation prop. Important when you deal with your starter, distributor, and any major engine components.

If the engine is in the middle of the boat, it is called a direct drive. Likely what you have with your '77. V drive is just like it sounds. The engine is at the back of the boat. The driveshaft goes from the engine toward the front of the boat and into a gear box. Then another drive shaft comes out of that drive shaft for the prop.

Enjoy your boat.

thatsmrmastercraft
02-19-2010, 10:07 AM
I willtry to get somepics as soon as the snow stops.And the rotation of the motor is clockwise what Iam wondering is what I need to change to run other direction I was told cam but wanted more info on it

This should help you determine which engine you have:

Engine Rotation

Boat Engine RotationRotation is always determined by looking at the flywheel end of an inboard engine. The flywheel of a standard rotation engine turns left, or counter-clockwise, when viewed from the flywheel. The flywheel of a reverse rotation engine turns right, or clockwise, when viewed from the flywheel. Most single engine inboard and I/O boats use a standard rotation (L.H.) counter-clockwise engine. Use the illustration to the right, supplied by API MARINE, to help understand engine rotation.

If your boat has twin engines, counter rotating engines have long been used to neutralize propeller torque which improves vessel handling and performance. The port, left side engine, is the standard rotation engine. The starboard, right side engine, is a reverse or counter rotation engine. Sometimes it is not possible to view the flywheel so engine rotation will have to be viewed from the front of the engine. Just remember to reverse what you see at the front of the engine so it agrees with flywheel rotation. These are the guidelines for engines mounted in the normal fore and aft position with the flywheel closer to the stern of the boat. Some older boats used a flywheel forward configuration that can change the rules. Also, some ski boats with single engines, mostly Ford 302/351 power plants, used reverse rotation engines so it is a good idea to determine your engine's rotation before visiting the parts department to avoid error.

Due to the higher production costs and the advent of fuel injected gasoline engines bristling with computer modules and sensors, engine manufacturers discontinued reverse rotation engines in most cases. Since then, engine outputs have been handled by reduction gears capable of reversing engine output rotation. Both engines are standard left hand rotation but the reverse reduction gear changes the starboard engine output to right hand rotation. This is a much simpler, less expensive way to handle the need for opposite rotating engines.

Starter motors, when mounted forward of the flywheel, will turn clockwise (R.H.) to start a standard rotation (L.H.) counter-clockwise motor. Starters mounted aft of the flywheel will turn counter-clockwise (L.H.) to start the same engine. Everything is just the opposite when speaking of a reverse rotation (R.H.) clockwise engine.

Wheelhorsepuller..........What end of the engine are you looking at when you are saying clockwise? Are you sure you have the wrong rotation engine?

MC76restore
02-19-2010, 10:11 AM
thanks skipper, that is very helpful info.

i would love to put a whole new drive-train in my boat, but unfortunately i just don't have the financial resources for that right now, so im looking into used and reman motors right now, but now, knowing that i can use my trans with either rotation motor broadens my options a lot. thank you

JLeuck64
02-19-2010, 01:49 PM
OK JL, perhaps you can enlighten us with all your wisdom. Sounds like wheelhorespuller got a boat with either an automotive 351 or a marine engine with standard rotation. Perhaps I should have asked him for a few more details, but you seem to have all the answers..........so go ahead, enlighten us.:D

Aw shucks Mr. MC I was just gettin it out of my system too.... Give a fella a break huh?:D

MC76restore
02-20-2010, 12:52 PM
If your rudder is centered on the boat, you won't have an adverse effect. Understand that you feel a difference in handling when operating a right hand vs. left hand rotation boat, even when they are designed to operate that way. In most cases with the older boats it is perfectly acceptable to swap from right hand rotation to left hand rotation.

i looked at my boat last night, and the rudder is indeed offset to the left side, so would this be an issue if i switch prop rotation?
will pull to one side while driving forward? or only in reverse?

thanks

'78 Starz & Stripes
02-20-2010, 01:01 PM
I'd try turning the prop around, that just may be the ticket! :D

TMCNo1
02-20-2010, 01:36 PM
I'd try turning the prop around, that just may be the ticket! :D


You can't turn the prop around on a tapered shaft and make it work. The shape in that direction would will be all wrong too.

JLeuck64
02-20-2010, 02:42 PM
I'd try turning the prop around, that just may be the ticket! :D

I luv this thread!!!:D

Skipper
02-20-2010, 08:32 PM
i looked at my boat last night, and the rudder is indeed offset to the left side, so would this be an issue if i switch prop rotation?
will pull to one side while driving forward? or only in reverse?

thanks

Yes, friend, if your rudder is offset to the left, it is that way to account for the rotation of the prop. If you switched rotation, it would create some handling problems. Serious problems.

95prostar
02-20-2010, 11:40 PM
serious? seriously? if this guy is legit i will shed some knowledge. i built racing/high perf engines for about 5 years. it isnt looking good.

MC76restore
02-21-2010, 03:05 PM
serious? seriously? if this guy is legit i will shed some knowledge. i built racing/high perf engines for about 5 years. it isnt looking good.

well, lets hear the knowledge, i seriously need a new motor and would like to use a CCW rotating motor IF it wont screw up my handling.

or, i would like to convert a CCW motor to CW using the parts off of my current motor. from what i can tell that would require the starter, cams, and distributer off of my current motor.(is this correct or am i missing something?) or new parts. anybody know a good source for new reverse rotating starter/distributer?

Skipper
02-21-2010, 06:30 PM
If you need a new motor, there is nothing wrong with reverse rotation. The components of the reverse rotation engine are totally different from those of a standard rotation. The only parts that you can swap out will be raw water pump, carb, heads. The easiest, least expensive option is to rebuild the engine that you have. Not sure what is wrong with it, but if the block and/or heads are not cracked, it can be rebuilt. Those are good engines, reverse or standard rotation, most of them far outlast the components.

MC76restore
02-21-2010, 08:11 PM
If you need a new motor, there is nothing wrong with reverse rotation. The components of the reverse rotation engine are totally different from those of a standard rotation. The only parts that you can swap out will be raw water pump, carb, heads. The easiest, least expensive option is to rebuild the engine that you have. Not sure what is wrong with it, but if the block and/or heads are not cracked, it can be rebuilt. Those are good engines, reverse or standard rotation, most of them far outlast the components.

weeeeeeeell, the motor sat for about 12 years in a barn. when i got it the heads had been pulled and the pistons and cylindars are rusted pretty good. the distributor and intake manifold sat out in the weather(for about 4 months in the snow), and the carburetor is missing.

when i looked into machining and a new carburator, i figured i was already at more than what a used(running) 302 would be, and hopped i could use a CCW motor. is there anyway that moving my rudder over to the right would work to alleviate my performance issues if i use a CCW motor?

MC76restore
02-21-2010, 08:41 PM
sorry wheelhorsepuller,
i have kind of hijacked your thread.
hope you have gotten the help you needed.

Skipper
02-21-2010, 09:07 PM
weeeeeeeell, the motor sat for about 12 years in a barn. when i got it the heads had been pulled and the pistons and cylindars are rusted pretty good. the distributor and intake manifold sat out in the weather(for about 4 months in the snow), and the carburetor is missing.

when i looked into machining and a new carburator, i figured i was already at more than what a used(running) 302 would be, and hopped i could use a CCW motor. is there anyway that moving my rudder over to the right would work to alleviate my performance issues if i use a CCW motor?

The following two links are for base engines available from SKIDIM:

Base engine RH rotation (www.skidim.com/prodinfo.asp?number=RB001005A)

Base engine LH rotation (http://www.skidim.com/prodinfo.asp?number=RB001005H)

You would need a carb, intake manifold, and afew other components to make it all work.

Based only on what I have seen on Horse Power TV I think you could have your engine machined and rebuilt for much less than one of these engines cost. But I really haven't priced them.

As far as moving the rudder to the other side...yes, you can. But, you are really taking a risk. You can offset the rudder exactly the same distance as it is now, except on the other side. Leaves a big hole to fill in.

I was at a boat show in Louisville, KY last year and a guy was selling a really nice 351W marinized by PCM for like $3k. Yeah, that's not where you live. But what I am saying is that you may have a boat show in your geographical location and may be able to find something. Or, you may be able to find a used engine. Not too long ago somebody on this site was swapping out a running 351W with a new engine from SKIDIM. They were offering the engine and transmission at a great price.

Also, there are people like jim@baws who have contacts that might be able to hook you up. I think you will be able to find a way to repower that will fit your budget. Although you can swap the rudder over to the other side, I would not go that route.

MC76restore
02-21-2010, 11:19 PM
thanks for your help skipper,

i have looked at Skidim for motors a few times, but i find it hard for me to justify spending 4k on a motor for a boat that i payed 750 for. i was hoping to figure out my motor situation for under 1000 but the more i look at it the more i think that might not happen.

my friend who is a mechanic said it would probably cost me around 400 for machining and to clean up the block, and then i am still not exactly sure what else my motor will need. i will probably get the motor out this week, and get the oil pan off and at least get a better idea of what im dealing with.

as for the rudder, im not too concerned because im sure i could fiberglass the hole up pretty well. and right now the fuel tank is pulled so i have good access to it as well.
id rather not do this but if it comes down to spending 400 on a used CCW motor and moving the rudder or spending 3K on a CW motor, its going to be a tough decision.

thatsmrmastercraft
02-22-2010, 12:09 AM
thanks for your help skipper,

i have looked at Skidim for motors a few times, but i find it hard for me to justify spending 4k on a motor for a boat that i payed 750 for. i was hoping to figure out my motor situation for under 1000 but the more i look at it the more i think that might not happen.

my friend who is a mechanic said it would probably cost me around 400 for machining and to clean up the block, and then i am still not exactly sure what else my motor will need. i will probably get the motor out this week, and get the oil pan off and at least get a better idea of what im dealing with.

as for the rudder, im not too concerned because im sure i could fiberglass the hole up pretty well. and right now the fuel tank is pulled so i have good access to it as well.
id rather not do this but if it comes down to spending 400 on a used CCW motor and moving the rudder or spending 3K on a CW motor, its going to be a tough decision.

The previous owner of my '77 let the original engine freeze and the block cracked. He spent a few hours calling all the local dealers looking for a used inboard engine. He found one from a Skiffcraft which was being parted out. It is a Mercruiser with 500 hours on it and he got a heck of a deal on it. Perhaps chasing down a good used engine would be the simplest and least expensive approach and have none of the negatives that relocating the rudder could. Resale is never a large consideration for me, however, Mastercraft only produced limited numbers of these early boats, and staying original does have some potential merits.

MC76restore
02-22-2010, 01:41 AM
agreed, this boat would be much more valuable as an original, but sadly, somewhere along the way things were modified. so the boat will never be original condition anyway. im going to make some calls and see what dealers around here might have a motor laying around.
mine is not cracked however and could be rebuilt i just dont think its worth it with the machining and parts that need to be replaced.

thatsmrmastercraft
02-22-2010, 02:00 AM
Any chance you have a local tech school with a marine engine class. That might be a possible source to get your engine worked on at a reduced rate, just not necessarily fast. When you are calling, keep in mind that were a lot of Mercruiser powered inboard engines from the vintage of our boats - both 302's and 351's with the proper rotation. Starting with your local Mastercraft dealer, or any other brand of ski boat dealer, my next bet would be the Mercury dealers. You are more likely to find the correct engine by word of mouth, but using http://www.searchtempest.com/ or one of the sites like it will help you search online more effectively. Good luck. Don't forget pictures.

MC76restore
02-23-2010, 10:20 AM
thanks Mr MC,

im currently contacting several marinas and dealers in a search for a used motor.

i wish i had known about the searchtempest.com thing a long time ago, that makes short work of my searches. and it did locate a running standard rotation 351 within driving distance for a good price but im going to try to locate a reverse rotation motor first.

thanks again.
ill post pics of boat as soon as i can get some decent ones and its somewhat put back together. haha