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View Full Version : "How's that hope-y, change-y stuff workin' out for you?"


TMCNo1
02-07-2010, 09:51 AM
Sarah Palin: It's revolution time (http://m.www.yahoo.com/_ylt=AlorUZX2E7vnZIBH1BM6Dv.bvZx4;_ylu=X3oDMTNmc2J uMWNlBGEDMTAwMjA2IG5ld3MgcGFsaW4gdGVhIHBhcnR5IHQEY 3BvcwMyNwRnA2lkLTIwMTM5BGludGwDdXMEcGtndgMxOQRwb3M DMgRzZWMDdGQtZmVhdARzbGsDdGl0bGUEc2xwb3MDRgR0ZXN0A zcwMQ--/SIG=11hr5a7d7/**http%3A//news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_palin_s_people)

thatsmrmastercraft
02-07-2010, 10:02 AM
Three thought on the subject:

- Since there is no tea to throw in the harbor to make a statement, how about we just throw politicians in the harbor?

- I initially laughed at the thought of Palin running for president, but she would probably stand a chance right now with the way Nobama has performed. Could she be worse?

- I didn't think Jesse Ventura had a chance at the Governors office here when he was running against a popular imcumbant and the Mayor of St. Paul who just brought professional hockey back to Minnesota. Being a third party candidate, he won the office with 37% of the vote.

TX.X-30 fan
02-07-2010, 11:59 AM
No one could be worse! But to be fair lets ask the mayor of Las Vegas what he thinks.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_BFZ8qyUDo

Skipper
02-07-2010, 12:17 PM
Hope-y Change-y garbage! What hope and change has Acorn's Messiah brought to the world?

o Told everybody he is sorry about our country
o Demanded that we move enemy combatants from Guantanamo Bay, Cuba to the US and give them all of the rights of Americans, pay billions for their trials, and endanger Americans in the process
o Told the leaders of the military that he wants to allows gays to serve openly in the military

Yet people hate Sarah Palin?

What a mess!

bbymgr
02-07-2010, 12:31 PM
Hope-y Change-y garbage! What hope and change has Acorn's Messiah brought to the world?

o Told everybody he is sorry about our country
o Demanded that we move enemy combatants from Guantanamo Bay, Cuba to the US and give them all of the rights of Americans, pay billions for their trials, and endanger Americans in the process
o Told the leaders of the military that he wants to allows gays to serve openly in the military

Yet people hate Sarah Palin?

What a mess!

The leaders of the Military were saying this first. I think this might not be a bad idea. You have to trust the guys to each side of you.............no lies, no deception.

TX.X-30 fan
02-07-2010, 01:42 PM
The military leader you speak of is the only one that said that and he was sliding his nose up the idiots anus.

The military is the last place for social experiments............. and its not a democracy either.

Ski-me
02-07-2010, 01:58 PM
Ran across this and laughed....:)

JimN
02-07-2010, 02:16 PM
The military leader you speak of is the only one that said that and he was sliding his nose up the idiots anus.

The military is the last place for social experiments............. and its not a democracy either.

I think the office of the President should be pretty far down the list for social experiments, too. Milwaukee has done three of these for police chief and they all sucked. One was the former Mayor's body guard after being a cop for quite a while and with him as chief, 54% of the officers either retired or quit while he was in office. Another used his short term as chief here for a stepping-stone to get the same gig in Detroit and the last was a woman who was a lame duck because her predecessor left early and she was totally useless.

Governmental high offices are not to be toyed and experimented with. The damage done quickly takes far longer to undo.

TX.X-30 fan
02-07-2010, 02:21 PM
Are you insinuating our fearless leader was nothing more than a social experiment and far from the most experienced leader we could have chosen??



I have seen that Bush pic......................... Too funny now to look back at how the left just despised the guy.

TMCNo1
02-07-2010, 03:42 PM
I don't think this is all about Palin right now for the Presidency, but at least someone is stirring the pot of Independents and Republicans to get them to election boards to sign up to run for office and to the polling places and replace the liars and crooks we now have and elect a new group of liars and crooks who might just inadvertently do some good and right things that need to be done. The "Hope-y, Change-y" administration we have now is a farce and needs to join the unemployment lines. "Revolution" just happened to sound to me like the appropriate word for what needs to take place.

JimN
02-07-2010, 03:43 PM
Are you insinuating our fearless leader was nothing more than a social experiment and far from the most experienced leader we could have chosen??



I have seen that Bush pic......................... Too funny now to look back at how the left just despised the guy.

I thought we had this Fearless Leader:
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.ss-peterandpaul.net/images/Fearless_Leader_300.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.ss-peterandpaul.net/choir_youth.htm&h=300&w=244&sz=16&tbnid=F4aHPwlCTgvW8M:&tbnh=116&tbnw=94&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfearless%2Bleader&usg=__5WSjL36YSWw7xz2c_FwJmE7usZ0=&ei=PRdvS6PnMpDENtXRoaQL&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=5&ct=image&ved=0CCkQ9QEwBA

Insinuating? No. Saying it, yes- absolutely. I want the President to have at least had one job. A paper route, work as a busboy, counter guy at a fast food joint, I don't care but I want people who haven't spent their adult lives working for the government in some way, completely insulated from what the rest of us have to put up with.

JimN
02-07-2010, 03:49 PM
I don't think this is all about Palin right now for the Presidency, but at least someone is stirring the pot of Independents and Republicans to get them to election boards to sign up to run for office and to the polling places and replace the liars and crooks we now have and elect a new group of liars and crooks who might just inadvertently do some good and right things that need to be done. The "Hope-y, Change-y" administration we have now is a farce and needs to join the unemployment lines. "Revolution" just happened to sound to me like the appropriate word for what needs to take place.

The Conservatives need some kind of diabolical plan for getting people out to the polls. Let's see, how can they do this, hmmm, maybe they could talk about it after work, hold ralleys and open meetings. Wouldn't want closed door meetings, would we? That might look like we're trying to pull something over the eyes of those who aren't involved.

DOH!

But NOT like ACORN. I've had enough of those dirtbags.

2RLAKE
02-07-2010, 04:08 PM
here's a good story about this president

When George W. Bush heard about Fort Hood, he got in his car without any escort and drove to Fort Hood. He was stopped at the gate and the guard could not believe who he had just stopped. Bush only ask for directions to the hospital then drove on. The gate guard called that "The president Is on Fort Hood and driving to the hospital." The base went bananas looking for Obama. When they found it was Bush they immediately offered escort and Bush simply told them to let him visit the wounded and the dependents of the dead. He stayed at Fort Hood for over six hours and was finally asked to leave by a message from the White House. Obama flew in days later and held a "photo " session in a gym and did not even go to the hospital.

trickskier
02-07-2010, 04:13 PM
I use to have change in my pockets, but not anymore!!! :mad:

TMCNo1
02-07-2010, 04:23 PM
I use to have change in my pockets, but not anymore!!! :mad:

I've been putting my change in a fireproof box to pay the toll for the ride on the highway to hell this country is on!:rolleyes:

2RLAKE
02-07-2010, 04:24 PM
here's a good picture

Skipper
02-07-2010, 05:11 PM
here's a good story about this president

When George W. Bush heard about Fort Hood, he got in his car without any escort and drove to Fort Hood. He was stopped at the gate and the guard could not believe who he had just stopped. Bush only ask for directions to the hospital then drove on. The gate guard called that "The president Is on Fort Hood and driving to the hospital." The base went bananas looking for Obama. When they found it was Bush they immediately offered escort and Bush simply told them to let him visit the wounded and the dependents of the dead. He stayed at Fort Hood for over six hours and was finally asked to leave by a message from the White House. Obama flew in days later and held a "photo " session in a gym and did not even go to the hospital.

Bush was one-thousand times better president than hussain could ever HOPE to be. I really look forward to change....a change of presidents that is!

2RLAKE
02-07-2010, 05:17 PM
how about Glenn Beck as Palin's VP ... now that's a change i can hope for

bbymgr
02-07-2010, 05:18 PM
The military leader you speak of is the only one that said that and he was sliding his nose up the idiots anus.

The military is the last place for social experiments............. and its not a democracy either.

I'm just saying, if you are going to let homosexuals in the military, I want to know the truth. There are time when you have to have complete trust with your team, squad....etc. If they aren't allowed to tell you the truth, then how are you supposed to know when they are telling you the truth.

TX.X-30 fan
02-07-2010, 05:21 PM
here's a good story about this president

When George W. Bush heard about Fort Hood, he got in his car without any escort and drove to Fort Hood. He was stopped at the gate and the guard could not believe who he had just stopped. Bush only ask for directions to the hospital then drove on. The gate guard called that "The president Is on Fort Hood and driving to the hospital." The base went bananas looking for Obama. When they found it was Bush they immediately offered escort and Bush simply told them to let him visit the wounded and the dependents of the dead. He stayed at Fort Hood for over six hours and was finally asked to leave by a message from the White House. Obama flew in days later and held a "photo " session in a gym and did not even go to the hospital.



This can't be true for years I heard he was an idiot, racist, crook, liar, responsible for blacks dying in new orleans, surely the man Dan Rather and Brian Williams and the like told me about for 8 years could not do something so kind and thoughtful and selfless??? Confused!!

TX.X-30 fan
02-07-2010, 05:23 PM
I'm just saying, if you are going to let homosexuals in the military, I want to know the truth. There are time when you have to have complete trust with your team, squad....etc. If they aren't allowed to tell you the truth, then how are you supposed to know when they are telling you the truth.



Why woud it matter where someone wants to stick his unit, has no business in the military.

bbymgr
02-07-2010, 05:29 PM
Why woud it matter where someone wants to stick his unit, has no business in the military.

That is a totally different discussion, and one that I would agree with you on. The question is if they should be able to tell the truth, and I say if they are let in, then let them tell the truth.

TX.X-30 fan
02-07-2010, 05:42 PM
That is a totally different discussion, and one that I would agree with you on. The question is if they should be able to tell the truth, and I say if they are let in, then let them tell the truth.


I can see your argument, its not like nobody in the unit knows anyway?? I hate to see it used politically to bolster someones like-ability with his fringe base. I still say if we expect these men and women to protect us then lets not socially experiment with the service.

Chicks on subs is next I bet,and what a wonderful idea :rolleyes:

bbymgr
02-07-2010, 05:47 PM
I can see your argument, its not like nobody in the unit knows anyway?? I hate to see it used politically to bolster someones like-ability with his fringe base. I still say if we expect these men and women to protect us then lets not socially experiment with the service.

Chicks on subs is next I bet,and what a wonderful idea :rolleyes::eek3::eek3:

TX.X-30 fan
02-07-2010, 05:58 PM
Is that eek sarcastic?

Skipper
02-07-2010, 06:42 PM
No doubt there are some gays "blending in" in the military. Nothing good will come of letting flamers run amuck in the military. What the heck are they gonna wear to the military ball....pants or a dress? Nonsense!

TayMC197
02-07-2010, 06:47 PM
I know we have gays and I'm fine with that as long as they do their thing away from me. Sadly in the military if gays start stepping up and make advances to a non gay solders, then more than likely all we will hear about is how the military beats gays and we will have to resort to a non violent military. I personally feel the military needs to be left as is. I know woman want rights in the military and good for them making the effort and the stand to fight for our country but it easly distracts the war fighters with them being in the mix of battle. Admin, medical, and relative jobs are suitable but its just asking for trouble mixing a female into a male dominate and sex deprived atmosphere.

JimN
02-07-2010, 07:52 PM
I can see your argument, its not like nobody in the unit knows anyway?? I hate to see it used politically to bolster someones like-ability with his fringe base. I still say if we expect these men and women to protect us then lets not socially experiment with the service.

Chicks on subs is next I bet,and what a wonderful idea :rolleyes:

You watched 'Down Periscope' last night, didn't you?

TMCNo1
02-16-2010, 07:48 AM
Bayh cites strident partisanship in leaving Senate (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100216/ap_on_go_co/us_fleeing_congress;_ylt=Anf_gTVt7h1yvv.SoxBUdwsDW 7oF;_ylu=X3oDMTJwaDd2bzkxBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwMjE2L 3VzX2ZsZWVpbmdfY29uZ3Jlc3MEcG9zAzEwBHNlYwN5bl9hcnR pY2xlX3N1bW1hcnlfbGlzdARzbGsDYmF5aGNpdGVzc3Ry)


Looks like the "Revolution" has begun! Democrats leaving the House and Senate by not running for re-election. Osama Obama is in panic mode.

thatsmrmastercraft
02-16-2010, 10:09 AM
Bayh cites strident partisanship in leaving Senate (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100216/ap_on_go_co/us_fleeing_congress;_ylt=Anf_gTVt7h1yvv.SoxBUdwsDW 7oF;_ylu=X3oDMTJwaDd2bzkxBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwMjE2L 3VzX2ZsZWVpbmdfY29uZ3Jlc3MEcG9zAzEwBHNlYwN5bl9hcnR pY2xlX3N1bW1hcnlfbGlzdARzbGsDYmF5aGNpdGVzc3Ry)


Looks like the "Revolution" has begun! Democrats leaving the House and Senate by not running for re-election. Osama Obama is in panic mode.

My transition from election to this post :confused: :popcorn: :rant: :woohoo:

2RLAKE
02-28-2010, 10:38 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdKmc9aBELM

here is my new theme song .... all americas ought to watch this and see the lies of the president

Skipper
02-28-2010, 11:55 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdKmc9aBELM

here is my new theme song .... all americas ought to watch this and see the lies of the president

Don't know why nobody would listen before he got elected? Hope the same mistake does not happen twice.

TX.X-30 fan
02-28-2010, 01:18 PM
Don't know why nobody would listen before he got elected? Hope the same mistake does not happen twice.


Generally speaking our electorate is stupid. Public school educations have served the libs well.

To ignore what was easy to see about the prez before the election can only be blamed on stupidity.


If you voted for him I'm not personally calling you stupid, I'm sure by now you feel that way all by your lonesome.:D

JimN
02-28-2010, 02:02 PM
Uneducated people are easier to control. When they're unable to support themselves as well, they become dependent on the government for support and the party that supports them most will usually have a job for a long time, especially when the party that gives them what they need also gets them to vote.

glassmaster
02-28-2010, 09:14 PM
Don't know why nobody would listen before he got elected? Hope the same mistake does not happen twice.

Generally speaking our electorate is stupid. Public school educations have served the libs well.

To ignore what was easy to see about the prez before the election can only be blamed on stupidity.


If you voted for him I'm not personally calling you stupid, I'm sure by now you feel that way all by your lonesome.:D

Uneducated people are easier to control. When they're unable to support themselves as well, they become dependent on the government for support and the party that supports them most will usually have a job for a long time, especially when the party that gives them what they need also gets them to vote.

Maybe this will clear a few things up.
Watch it till the end and you will understand how it really works

http://www.youtube.com/user/GlobalAwareness2525#p/u/35/7wpHZK5Y_yQ

JimN
02-28-2010, 10:07 PM
Maybe this will clear a few things up.
Watch it till the end and you will understand how it really works

http://www.youtube.com/user/GlobalAwareness2525#p/u/35/7wpHZK5Y_yQ

Well, the first 2:48 was a total waste. The points about GE are only part of it. The CEO of GE is in Obama's cabinet. The video says the country was doing fine until 1900- so far, and I doubt I'll watch all 25 parts, they haven't made their point about that very well. Corporate ownership has been a factor for far longer that that. The railroad and steel corporation owners all had the ear of the government back in the 1800s but back then, most of the government wouldn't have been as blatant about it. It's looking now, like the RNC tossed Palin into the mix so McCain would lose, Obama would go in and try to do whatever he wants and the GOP would block him every chance they get. This will leave the country thinking that Obama is just an empty suit and the next Presidential candidates will be looked at with more skepticism than ever. I find the premise that people of color are being denied their right to vote to be absurd. If this was really happening, would Obama have won? Would he have come close in any primary? I seriously doubt it. "I have every reason to believe that the 2008 election is going to be manipulated"- I wonder what that guy thinks now. Why haven't we seen him on the news?

The Independents are being excluded from voting in many of the primaries, too. This will have a bad effect on both main parties. Not only will the Independents not vote for a Republican or Democrat, none of the Libertarians or any others who can no longer identify with the mainstream parties will offer any support, either.

Every party tries to manipulate things so they get their way. ACORN is one of the tools the Democrats use and anyone who denies that ACORN does what has been said has never seen it up close, in any way.

glassmaster
03-01-2010, 11:33 AM
Well, the first 2:48 was a total waste. The points about GE are only part of it. The CEO of GE is in Obama's cabinet. The video says the country was doing fine until 1900- so far, and I doubt I'll watch all 25 parts, they haven't made their point about that very well. Corporate ownership has been a factor for far longer that that. The railroad and steel corporation owners all had the ear of the government back in the 1800s but back then, most of the government wouldn't have been as blatant about it. It's looking now, like the RNC tossed Palin into the mix so McCain would lose, Obama would go in and try to do whatever he wants and the GOP would block him every chance they get. This will leave the country thinking that Obama is just an empty suit and the next Presidential candidates will be looked at with more skepticism than ever. I find the premise that people of color are being denied their right to vote to be absurd. If this was really happening, would Obama have won? Would he have come close in any primary? I seriously doubt it. "I have every reason to believe that the 2008 election is going to be manipulated"- I wonder what that guy thinks now. Why haven't we seen him on the news?

The Independents are being excluded from voting in many of the primaries, too. This will have a bad effect on both main parties. Not only will the Independents not vote for a Republican or Democrat, none of the Libertarians or any others who can no longer identify with the mainstream parties will offer any support, either.

Every party tries to manipulate things so they get their way. ACORN is one of the tools the Democrats use and anyone who denies that ACORN does what has been said has never seen it up close, in any way.


Do you honestly think that voting in today's time means anything?
Does it really matter who is in what party?
It might have back in the day when things were not so corrupt.
99% of people that are involved in politics are crooked if not all of them.
It is my opinion that the elections are rigged. It is to easy for them not to be. Why? Everything is done by a computer in today's time. So it has gotten ridiculously easy for them to pull this kind of thing off. They have simple programs that flip the counted votes in favor of who is supposed to win.
Really, look back at all of the lies over the years, from all the politicians, presidents, senators, etc. how can anyone begin to expect that things will be done truthfully as we the American people want it. They are all putting on a show and following their agenda no different than a used car salesman. They tell their victim what they want to hear, and take there money before the victim realizes that they have been deceived. Then when the victim tries to do something about it, the salesman/politician hangs on to policies and procedures that they created or follow to protect them by law, and force our victim to go through a seemingly endless judicial process at an enormous expense. All of this just to get justice and adequate service that the victim deserves from square one. Our system of government has been manipulated in such a way that it is certainly not in favor of the American people. Not like the Founding Fathers intended it.
Out of all of the evidence that is out there of this of this kind of corruption, I think someone is extremely naive, in complete denial or possibly even in brain dead if they think that they are going to go to the poles, vote, put someone new in that position and everything will come out right. That might have worked 100 years ago, but not now its to late for that.
Honestly if Americans really had a say or a legitimate voice things would be much different.
The people want it one way and the elected officials end up doing what they want instead and what are our options?
Wait until next time to vote them out and some other crook in. Are you kidding me? Do you really believe that is the answer and is going to straiten out all of this? It hasn't worked so far. It would if it were a honest system run by honest people, but we all know that is not the case, unless you are in complete denial as stated above.
We are very quickly headed for a socialist dictatorship.
Once something is in place like this or the corruption is this bad the only thing that the American people can do is to take up arms, over throw this Government and shed a lot of blood. Just like the Civil War, only 1000's of times worse.
Back then the Civil War was about the North against the south and ending slavery. Today we are looking square in the eyes of the same thing only this time it is the people against the Government and we become the slaves. In a lot of respects we are already slaves.
We have become so lazy/dependent on the Government to take care of things for us in the last 100 years that they have taken full advantage of it and we have set ourselves up for a tremendous fall. :twocents:

JimN
03-01-2010, 12:17 PM
Do you honestly think that voting in today's time means anything?
Does it really matter who is in what party?
It might have back in the day when things were not so corrupt.
99% of people that are involved in politics are crooked if not all of them.
It is my opinion that the elections are rigged. It is to easy for them not to be. Why? Everything is done by a computer in today's time. So it has gotten ridiculously easy for them to pull this kind of thing off. They have simple programs that flip the counted votes in favor of who is supposed to win.
Really, look back at all of the lies over the years, from all the politicians, presidents, senators, etc. how can anyone begin to expect that things will be done truthfully as we the American people want it. They are all putting on a show and following their agenda no different than a used car salesman. They tell their victim what they want to hear, and take there money before the victim realizes that they have been deceived. Then when the victim tries to do something about it, the salesman/politician hangs on to policies and procedures that they created or follow to protect them by law, and force our victim to go through a seemingly endless judicial process at an enormous expense. All of this just to get justice and adequate service that the victim deserves from square one. Our system of government has been manipulated in such a way that it is certainly not in favor of the American people. Not like the Founding Fathers intended it.
Out of all of the evidence that is out there of this of this kind of corruption, I think someone is extremely naive, in complete denial or possibly even in brain dead if they think that they are going to go to the poles, vote, put someone new in that position and everything will come out right. That might have worked 100 years ago, but not now its to late for that.
Honestly if Americans really had a say or a legitimate voice things would be much different.
The people want it one way and the elected officials end up doing what they want instead and what are our options?
Wait until next time to vote them out and some other crook in. Are you kidding me? Do you really believe that is the answer and is going to straiten out all of this? It hasn't worked so far. It would if it were a honest system run by honest people, but we all know that is not the case, unless you are in complete denial as stated above.
We are very quickly headed for a socialist dictatorship.
Once something is in place like this or the corruption is this bad the only thing that the American people can do is to take up arms, over throw this Government and shed a lot of blood. Just like the Civil War, only 1000's of times worse.
Back then the Civil War was about the North against the south and ending slavery. Today we are looking square in the eyes of the same thing only this time it is the people against the Government and we become the slaves. In a lot of respects we are already slaves.
We have become so lazy/dependent on the Government to take care of things for us in the last 100 years that they have taken full advantage of it and we have set ourselves up for a tremendous fall. :twocents:

Yeah- voting makes a difference. It's the largest focus group on the planet and lets the parties know how things are going for them so they can continue or change their path.

You haven't been here long enough to have read the older debate about how government is failing us and where we're going but you haven't posted anything new. Also, people are making it known that they don't trust the government and party affiliation has nothing to do with their views. Times are a-changing and they know it. Look at how many sitting members of Congress are leaving- the rats are jumping ship because it will no longer be "business as usual" for them. Government doing what it wants, when it wants and to whom will have to stop and considering the fact that ~90 million people own ~200 million guns, it would be foolish for them to think they can just tell us to hand them in (2nd Amendment hasn't been repealed) or install a military presence on non-federal property (Posse Comitatus) but they haven't seen fit to declare Martial Law. Yet. That would be the first thing they'll do if a revolution begins in earnest and if that happens, the Constitution could be suspended (if they want total control, you can bet it will be).

We aren't at that point yet but we are making our discontent known. It will take time but I think we'll get some results as long as people don't see it as futile and remain diligent, learn about why things are going wrong and about how they should be. The country isn't what the Founding Fathers envisioned and there's no way they could foresee what we have become but they nailed the main topics, using older forms as a framework. Part of the problem is in human nature- given the chance, people will usually take the easy way, so handouts will always be popular. A small percentage wants to be left alone and if they're out on the fringes of the populated areas, that can work until the cities de-centralize further, with population growth or increases in crime, taxation or persecution.

The 20th Century was one of the worst periods in World History and I only hope it will be taught that way. Sure, enormous growth has occurred in some areas but much of that growth was used to annihilate more people than any other time. The whole "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts, absolutely" has never been more true and our leaders are well into new hobbies when they should be dealing with the problems (the 'Nero fiddles while Rome burns" thing). They seem to think that they can change the subject on a regular basis and we'll just go where they jerk our collective nose-ring.

I saw a few minutes of a discussion with some members of Congress who are leaving and one said that with all of the partisan bickering, the general population has to take some of the blame. Not what I wanted to hear, that's for damn sure. They make the laws, they approve the budget and they can override a Presidential veto- how can they be so arrogant that they think it's our fault? Because we voted them into office? That's not far from "Well, or course we screwed you. You voted us into office. What did you expect?".

glassmaster
03-01-2010, 01:12 PM
Yeah- voting makes a difference. It's the largest focus group on the planet and lets the parties know how things are going for them so they can continue or change their path.

Voting makes a difference for who? Not normal citizens you said so yourself;
"lets the parties know how things are going for them" Not us. They wont even let the Independents have a chance.
"so they can continue or change their path" What do you think is their path is? It certainly is not for us to keep our privacy, freedoms, or rights. Those are taken away daily. Soon there wont be any left.
Then what?
Everyone knows how crooked elected officials and politics are. Their track records speak for themselves.
So Let me get this strait,
You are saying choose a crooked politician to vote for because like I said above independents are not allowed and send your votes to a organazation run by crooked people and expect an acurate and honest outcome?
You can't be serious.
This is exactly why things get worse and worse for the American People. People hold on to this false sense of security that they can make a difference by voting. It might of worked in the past but it is a complete joke in today's day and age.
Voting is a fantasy and in my opinion whoever thinks it isn't might as well believe in having 3 wishes come true, unicorns, fairy tails, and leprechauns.

JimN
03-01-2010, 01:14 PM
Voting makes a difference for who? Not normal citizens you said so yourself;
"lets the parties know how things are going for them" Not us. They wont even let the Independents have a chance.
"so they can continue or change their path" What do you think is their path is? It certainly is not for us to keep our privacy, freedoms, or rights. Those are taken away daily. Soon there wont be any left.
Then what?
Everyone knows how crooked elected officials and politics are. Their track records speak for themselves.
So Let me get this strait,
You are saying choose a crooked politician to vote for because like I said above independents are not allowed and send your votes to a organazation run by crooked people and expect an acurate and honest outcome?
You can't be serious.
This is exactly why things get worse and worse for the American People. People hold on to this false sense of security that they can make a difference by voting. It might of worked in the past but it is a complete joke in today's day and age.
Voting is a fantasy and in my opinion whoever thinks it isn't might as well believe in having 3 wishes come true, unicorns, fairy tails, and leprechauns.

You might want to re-read what I have posted, because you didn't get it the first time.

glassmaster
03-01-2010, 02:15 PM
Yeah- voting makes a difference. It's the largest focus group on the planet and lets the parties know how things are going for them so they can continue or change their path.

You haven't been here long enough to ................

I personally think this is how it will go down;
I think another attack will be staged just like 911 on a larger more spread out scale.
This will invoke fear in Americans so they will be OK with letting Martial Law take place (for protection against terrorist).
The Government will move in military to fight terrorist on our soil and start to blanket the country. Once the military are in position it is over. Yeah I know a lot of people in the US have guns but don't think for one minute they are any match for any or all of the branches of our military. Especially in small groups or solo. Also in that kind of a situation would not anyone at that point be considered a terrorist if they chose to fire on the military? Therefore anyone against our government for what ever reason is this situation is considered a terrorist and voting wont help you at all. That's were it is heading.
The Government does not want a war they just want submissive slaves. So for them to try to force their way military would most certainly cause a Civil type war.
But if they staged something or allowed something to take place to make them look like a hero they would have full support of the American people be able to swoop in act like they are protecting us, take control and you me and a lot of others are screwed.
The Government needs to be removed before this happens.
Some things you just can't fix.
This of course is my opinion any what I think will happen. Will it? I certainly hope not .
I personally want everyone to be happy, love, one another, be kind, just and put others first, but I don't think that will be happening
I normally do not follow discussions like this, but when I see someone bickering over a spoke instead of looking at the whole wheel I have to say something while I still have freedom of speach.

JimN
03-01-2010, 02:43 PM
I personally think this is how it will go down;
I think another attack will be staged just like 911 on a larger more spread out scale.
This will invoke fear in Americans so they will be OK with letting Martial Law take place (for protection against terrorist).
The Government will move in military to fight terrorist on our soil and start to blanket the country. Once the military are in position it is over. Yeah I know a lot of people in the US have guns but don't think for one minute they are any match for any or all of the branches of our military. Especially in small groups or solo. Also in that kind of a situation would not anyone at that point be considered a terrorist if they chose to fire on the military? Therefore anyone against our government for what ever reason is this situation is considered a terrorist and voting wont help you at all. That's were it is heading.
The Government does not want a war they just want submissive slaves. So for them to try to force their way military would most certainly cause a Civil type war.
But if they staged something or allowed something to take place to make them look like a hero they would have full support of the American people be able to swoop in act like they are protecting us, take control and you me and a lot of others are screwed.
The Government needs to be removed before this happens.
Some things you just can't fix.
This of course is my opinion any what I think will happen. Will it? I certainly hope not .
I personally want everyone to be happy, love, one another, be kind, just and put others first, but I don't think that will be happening
I normally do not follow discussions like this, but when I see someone bickering over a spoke instead of looking at the whole wheel I have to say something while I still have freedom of speach.

If anyone is OK with a Declaration of Martial Law, especially with this mob in office, it's because A) they don't know what it is, B) are following their local herd and/or C) they actually think the government is actually doing it for them and not to preserve/increase the level of governmental power. Martial Law isn't for dealing with small groups, it's for when the general population runs amok and chaos ensues. It can be used when a major invasion occurs but generally, the Coast Guard and National Guard are to be used, unless it's a large invasion. If an identifiable group invades, I have the feeling that it will be open season on them, authorized, or not.

With approximately 1 million in the Armed Forces, gun owners have a rough 200:1 ratio and I sincerely hope it never comes to it being "Us against Them".

Blindly following any government is truly a bad thing. It's our duty to be skeptical of anything they do that appears sketchy. The problem is that if they let us know things that appear sketchy, you can bet that there's a lot more that we'll never know.

As someone who campaigned on openness and transparency in government, Obama sure does want to close everyone off from what's happening.

bbymgr
03-01-2010, 04:14 PM
...................

JimN
03-01-2010, 04:19 PM
...................

I saw your original reply but even a Barney Fife can hit something, occasionally. You're right, though.

TX.X-30 fan
03-01-2010, 04:38 PM
I don't believe our military would go along with it very long.

bbymgr
03-01-2010, 05:25 PM
I saw your original reply but even a Barney Fife can hit something, occasionally. You're right, though.

Sorry Jim, I though I miss read your post.

2RLAKE
03-01-2010, 07:41 PM
Just for the record, GE does not own Raytheon ... Raytheon is a wholly owned company publicly traded on the NYSE. GE's CEO is one of many economic advisors ... including the leaders of UBS, Pritzker Realty, Caterpillar, Oracle and others. Dwight D. Eisenhower and others had similar advisory panels

TX.X-30 fan
03-01-2010, 09:04 PM
Just for the record, GE does not own Raytheon ... Raytheon is a wholly owned company publicly traded on the NYSE. GE's CEO is one of many economic advisors ... including the leaders of UBS, Pritzker Realty, Caterpillar, Oracle and others. Dwight D. Eisenhower and others had similar advisory panels



Did Eisenhower have dozens of czars that were self professed communists??


You would not seriously try and defend that idiot.


Are you saying NBC is not in the tank for the administration? You would have to not be paying attention not to notice what NBC has done.

TX.X-30 fan
03-01-2010, 09:06 PM
Just for the record, GE does not own Raytheon ... Raytheon is a wholly owned company publicly traded on the NYSE. GE's CEO is one of many economic advisors ... including the leaders of UBS, Pritzker Realty, Caterpillar, Oracle and others. Dwight D. Eisenhower and others had similar advisory panels





The Cat guy had all the hope and change he could stand a while back. :D He is not having anymore Kool-Aid

Skipper
03-01-2010, 09:25 PM
I personally think this is how it will go down;
I think another attack will be staged just like 911 on a larger more spread out scale.
This will invoke fear in Americans so they will be OK with letting Martial Law take place (for protection against terrorist).
The Government will move in military to fight terrorist on our soil and start to blanket the country. Once the military are in position it is over. Yeah I know a lot of people in the US have guns but don't think for one minute they are any match for any or all of the branches of our military. Especially in small groups or solo. Also in that kind of a situation would not anyone at that point be considered a terrorist if they chose to fire on the military? Therefore anyone against our government for what ever reason is this situation is considered a terrorist and voting wont help you at all. That's were it is heading.
The Government does not want a war they just want submissive slaves. So for them to try to force their way military would most certainly cause a Civil type war.
But if they staged something or allowed something to take place to make them look like a hero they would have full support of the American people be able to swoop in act like they are protecting us, take control and you me and a lot of others are screwed.
The Government needs to be removed before this happens.
Some things you just can't fix.
This of course is my opinion any what I think will happen. Will it? I certainly hope not .
I personally want everyone to be happy, love, one another, be kind, just and put others first, but I don't think that will be happening
I normally do not follow discussions like this, but when I see someone bickering over a spoke instead of looking at the whole wheel I have to say something while I still have freedom of speach.

Staged? Are you implying that we were not attacked on 9/11? If so, I say that is total nonsense! Not even worth entertaining a discussion.

I propose another scenario. The terrorists launch a coordinated attack on our schools. They kill our defenseless children. Defenseless because we do not have enough well trained, armed officials at the schools prepared to kill the terrorists before they take over the school. (It has happened before in Europe)

In the aftermath, Americans will be too scared to let their children go to school again. Schools will shut down. All jobs related to schools will go away. Parents will not take their kids to pre-schools, day care, etc... All of those jobs will go away.

The economy will turn to crap. The stock market will crash. Then, the country will be implode.

JimN
03-01-2010, 10:09 PM
Staged? Are you implying that we were not attacked on 9/11? If so, I say that is total nonsense! Not even worth entertaining a discussion.

I propose another scenario. The terrorists launch a coordinated attack on our schools. They kill our defenseless children. Defenseless because we do not have enough well trained, armed officials at the schools prepared to kill the terrorists before they take over the school. (It has happened before in Europe)

In the aftermath, Americans will be too scared to let their children go to school again. Schools will shut down. All jobs related to schools will go away. Parents will not take their kids to pre-schools, day care, etc... All of those jobs will go away.

The economy will turn to crap. The stock market will crash. Then, the country will be implode.

I don't think they would try this in most inner cities. The security guards are packing heat there.

glassmaster
03-01-2010, 10:10 PM
Staged? Are you implying that we were not attacked on 9/11? If so, I say that is total nonsense! Not even worth entertaining a discussion.

I propose another scenario. The terrorists launch a coordinated attack on our schools. They kill our defenseless children. Defenseless because we do not have enough well trained, armed officials at the schools prepared to kill the terrorists before they take over the school. (It has happened before in Europe)

In the aftermath, Americans will be too scared to let their children go to school again. Schools will shut down. All jobs related to schools will go away. Parents will not take their kids to pre-schools, day care, etc... All of those jobs will go away.

The economy will turn to crap. The stock market will crash. Then, the country will be implode.

"Are you implying that we were not attacked on 9/11? If so, I say that is total nonsense!"
You know Skipper I thought it was total nonsense myself until I saw this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E3oIbO0AWE
this is a full length documentary that you have obviously have not seen.
Every person that I know that has seen this documentary including friends, police officer ex military that I know has changed their mind after viewing it.
What blew me away more than anything though was I had no clue of any of this until 7 years after it happened.
I hoestly think you will fell the same way.
As far as the scenario you stated, I think it is anyone's guess and not one will be a good one.

2RLAKE
03-01-2010, 10:14 PM
Not defending at all ... i think that NBC is a far left commie pinko liberal new agency with a specific agenda ... one that is not in line with my views at all

JimN
03-01-2010, 10:32 PM
Carrying out a false flag operation on our soil is unlikely. Nice of the video to not allow reading the text. This has too many facts that have nothing to support them.

bbymgr
03-01-2010, 11:11 PM
"Are you implying that we were not attacked on 9/11? If so, I say that is total nonsense!"
You know Skipper I thought it was total nonsense myself until I saw this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E3oIbO0AWE
this is a full length documentary that you have obviously have not seen.
Every person that I know that has seen this documentary including friends, police officer ex military that I know has changed their mind after viewing it.
What blew me away more than anything though was I had no clue of any of this until 7 years after it happened.
I hoestly think you will fell the same way.
As far as the scenario you stated, I think it is anyone's guess and not one will be a good one.

That is the biggest pile of BS I've ever seen. Put the crack pipe down!!!:mad:

Skipper
03-02-2010, 06:21 AM
Are you just trying to push people's buttons? Want to start a heated, useless internet debate to see how long until the thread is locked or deleted?

When I was a highway patrolman, I chased a drunk driver down the highway until he ran off the road and got stuck. When I got to the car he asked me how I got to his space ship. He believed that he was Spock from Star Trek. That guy is almost as dumb as the people that say our own government attacked the United States.

glassmaster
03-02-2010, 10:09 AM
Are you just trying to push people's buttons? Want to start a heated, useless internet debate to see how long until the thread is locked or deleted?

When I was a highway patrolman, I chased a drunk driver down the highway until he ran off the road and got stuck. When I got to the car he asked me how I got to his space ship. He believed that he was Spock from Star Trek. That guy is almost as dumb as the people that say our own government attacked the United States.

My views are my opinion, not trying to push anyone's buttons just stating what I believe. I have not made anyone open any links to what I have posted. I have not forced anything on anyone. Everyone has a choice in this country (so far anyway) on what they read or look at and if they believe it or not. I am just sharing what I have learned with others that may not know. I don't think that is unreasonable. If someone views and/or reads something they are show they make up there own mind to believe it or do it not me.
Am I any different than anyone that uses this forum? Everyone has an opinion some are liked some are not. This forum is full of them whether I post or not.
I don't like debates, politics, or media that tells you what they want to hear or anything like that, I don't even like TV anymore it is pure garbage. Again my opinion.
So if anyone is bothered by my opinion and what I have written I can't do anything about that as long as I follow the rules.
I came on this forum because I bought a Mastercraft and saw that this is the best place to find the kind of info I was looking for to restore it.
I have never even been on a forum before and was surprised that a ski boat forum would be so diverse and have so many different topics.
I don't like everything I see on here either, but I move on, try to respect others view and comment very little in comparison with the amount of posts I read.

454Prostar190
03-18-2010, 12:26 PM
I found this one last night and there's a Wall Street Journal link at the end of the post.

What happened to "By the people, for the people"?


Obama underwrites off shore oil drilling in BRAZIL . (financial district)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: 2010-03-17, 5:40PM PDT

Reply To This Post

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Obama underwrites off shore oil drilling in BRAZIL .

This is a perfect example why I refrain from watching
the news on ABC, NBC, CBS, or MSNBC.

Today on a segment of the "Glen Beck Show" on FOX
(Fox Cable News) was the following:��

"Today, even though President Obama is against off shore
drilling for our country, he signed an executive order to loan
2 Billion of our taxpayers dollars to a Brazilian Oil Exploration
Company (which is the 8th largest company in the entire world)
to drill for oil off the coast of Brazil ! The oil that comes from this
operation is for the sole purpose and use of��China��and NOT THE��USA!
Now here's the real clincher...the Chinese government is under
contract to purchase all the oil that this oil field will produce, which
is hu ndreds of millions of barrels of oil".

We have absolutely nothing to��gain from this transaction whatsoever!

Wait, it gets more interesting.

Guess who is the largest individual�� stockholder of this Brazilian
Oil Company and who would benefit most�� from this? It is American
BILLIONAIRE, George Soros, who�� was one of President Obama's
most generous financial supporter during his campaign.

If you are able to connect the dots and follow the money, you are
probably as upset as I am. Not a word of this transaction was broadcast
on any of the other news networks!

Forward this factual e-mail to others who care about this country
and�� where it is going. Also, let all of your Government representatives
know how you feel about this.

��Below is the Wall street Journal article to confirm this.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203863204574346610120524166.html

JimN
03-18-2010, 01:29 PM
We have had a coup and nobody wants to call it that. They usually happen violently and/or militarily, but ours was carried out by lawyers.

Skipper
03-18-2010, 02:07 PM
We have had a coup and nobody wants to call it that. They usually happen violently and/or militarily, but ours was carried out by lawyers.

No, by ACORN! Terrorist group for sure.:mad:

JimN
03-18-2010, 02:18 PM
No, by ACORN! Terrorist group for sure.:mad:

ACORN is just part of the whole mob who took over. This will take a long time to un-do. The fact that they want to "deem that the bill has passed" shows that they will do what they want, regardless of whether it's according to the rules or that it's not approved by the majority.

When they said they would bring change, it's too bad nobody asked "What kind of change?".

JimN
03-18-2010, 02:24 PM
I just got this from a friend:
http://americansforprosperity.org/obamachart.php

jvbaca
03-18-2010, 02:45 PM
Nobamanomics at work! Just make up the rules as he goes along or breaks them for MAJOR legislation! What a bummer that we have to put up with this CRA*!

captain planet
03-18-2010, 03:45 PM
Does anybody find it interesting that the Fed can't be audited? They just print off all this money and nobody is allowed to look at the books. Talk about doing what they want! And most of congress doesn't even know how the Fed operates. :mad:

JimN
03-18-2010, 06:49 PM
Does anybody find it interesting that the Fed can't be audited? They just print off all this money and nobody is allowed to look at the books. Talk about doing what they want! And most of congress doesn't even know how the Fed operates. :mad:

Why should knowing how the Fed works stop them? They don't even read the bills they sign. Screw the money they print- some in Congress want the Fed to be in charge of all banking.

This is some scary shyte- one government agency wants to control the banks, one party doesn't care if the other party or even the majority of the country approves of the legislation they "deem passed" and Congress in general "doesn't read" the bills they sign. This means they can sign bills for any purpose and claim ignorance when the wheels fall off or they strip all of our rights. They really do think we're ignorant and they're running our noses in it.

This fall- they need to go.

Skipper
03-18-2010, 09:41 PM
ACORN is just part of the whole mob who took over. This will take a long time to un-do. The fact that they want to "deem that the bill has passed" shows that they will do what they want, regardless of whether it's according to the rules or that it's not approved by the majority.

When they said they would bring change, it's too bad nobody asked "What kind of change?".

You can keep the change. That was my battle cry. But nobody seemed to listen. Now we are on our way ruin.

2RLAKE
03-18-2010, 10:34 PM
i do believe common sense will prevail ... Americans will stand up and slowly their voice wil be heard in DC ... whatever these idiots pass now can be undone with the next administration ... once we get back the white house from the socialists

TX.X-30 fan
03-19-2010, 10:08 PM
Does anybody find it interesting that the Fed can't be audited? They just print off all this money and nobody is allowed to look at the books. Talk about doing what they want! And most of congress doesn't even know how the Fed operates. :mad:


Who is mandating all this spending????????????????????????? Congress and the idiot are!!!!!!!!! They print it because the fools are spending it.

Our area had a group that got 7 million in stimulus for smoking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This group is insame and have destroyed our country.


7 million for smoking and getting people to quit................. Jezzzzzzzzzzzzzz.


Only way to fix this is to stop funding SS and dig some big-A$$ holes!!

Jorski
03-20-2010, 09:53 AM
7 million for smoking and getting people to quit................. Jezzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

There is likely a pretty significant return in the form of health care savings in money spent on reducing smoking.

TX.X-30 fan
03-20-2010, 10:17 AM
There is likely a pretty significant return in the form of health care savings in money spent on reducing smoking.


Very possibly so but don't you think that could go to something that might put a father or mother back to work?

JimN
03-20-2010, 12:05 PM
Very possibly so but don't you think that could go to something that might put a father or mother back to work?

Business owners won't do much hiring because of the amount of uncertainty- you know that. Construction is down because of that and loans aren't as easy to get do many people.

On top of this, they'll be coming out with more taxes without calling them that. The EPA came out with a requirement for anyone in the building trades- if they disturb wall paint or painted trim that was installed prior to the cutoff date for lead paint, they must follow specific procedures when the work is done, during cleanup/disposal and the proper paperwork must be filled out and kept. The company owner, their workers and MDU owners must take an 8 hour class and become certified. This will drive the cost of work by carpenters, painters, electricians, plumbers, renovators, low voltage installations (like home theater, network, phone installation, etc), flooring and even carpet installation. This is a tax on people who want to improve their homes and it's not optional. This will also require more time per job, which means fewer buildings will be worked on in a given time. The contractor can't charge customers specifically for this and while they may deduct it as training and licensing fees, the time needed for people to go to this isn't generating income for the business, either.

They'll continue to add these fees just so Congress can spend more money and make people think that it's for their benefit.

Here's a link.
http://www.residentialsystems.com/blog/39506.aspx

JimN
03-20-2010, 12:16 PM
There is likely a pretty significant return in the form of health care savings in money spent on reducing smoking.

If they want to get people to stop, they need to present the dangers in real, visual ways. Show cancerous lungs, mouth and throat cancer "victims", people who have had strokes/aneurysms (like both of my parents), and present all of the financial costs involved- the actual cost of cigarettes, income lost from illness and death and how it affects people in other ways.

Taxing tobacco at absurd rates doesn't do much and they need to stop coddling people into thinking that it's not as bad as that little warning states. If we have a national health plan, we should ban unhealthy diet and habits. The problem is, who decides what's healthy? If it's a government plan, they do and that puts them farther into our personal business. Personally, I think smoking should be eliminated and since it killed both of my parents, it's not debatable for me.

We can't afford their plan- period. How can their way save money AND cover pre-existing conditions? They can't print enough money to pay for all of the extra costs, either. One of these days, the creditors holding the US debt will come calling and it won't be possible to repay it. I don't want to live in a debtor nation and nobody else should, either.

Jorski
03-20-2010, 03:49 PM
I don't want to live in a debtor nation and nobody else should, either.

Been in debt since the mid 1800s...may as well get used to it.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/US_Federal_Debt.png

TX.X-30 fan
03-20-2010, 04:36 PM
Business owners won't do much hiring because of the amount of uncertainty- you know that. Construction is down because of that and loans aren't as easy to get do many people.

On top of this, they'll be coming out with more taxes without calling them that. The EPA came out with a requirement for anyone in the building trades- if they disturb wall paint or painted trim that was installed prior to the cutoff date for lead paint, they must follow specific procedures when the work is done, during cleanup/disposal and the proper paperwork must be filled out and kept. The company owner, their workers and MDU owners must take an 8 hour class and become certified. This will drive the cost of work by carpenters, painters, electricians, plumbers, renovators, low voltage installations (like home theater, network, phone installation, etc), flooring and even carpet installation. This is a tax on people who want to improve their homes and it's not optional. This will also require more time per job, which means fewer buildings will be worked on in a given time. The contractor can't charge customers specifically for this and while they may deduct it as training and licensing fees, the time needed for people to go to this isn't generating income for the business, either.

They'll continue to add these fees just so Congress can spend more money and make people think that it's for their benefit.

Here's a link.
http://www.residentialsystems.com/blog/39506.aspx



That is very interesting, I have done similar work (mold) years ago and it was the farce that lead paint is in that law. It will only be followed by giant companies and then only at a very minimal level. All other companies may give it lip service but nothing will or should be done its ridiculous at best. Lastly there is no money for enforcement except for possibly a very big building/job otherwise i would never give that stupid govment mandate another thought.



Edit: I get your point and its not hard to believe given the current folks in charge.

Jorski
03-20-2010, 04:45 PM
So, I take it you are against the proper handling and disposal of asbestos???

Jorski
03-20-2010, 04:48 PM
How can their way save money AND cover pre-existing conditions?

Jimn,

Well, virtually every developed country in the world manages universal coverage for far less than your current costs. Not saying that this plan will do that. Just pointing out that it is certainly possible to do.

TX.X-30 fan
03-20-2010, 04:55 PM
So, I take it you are against the proper handling and disposal of asbestos???


I have done the disposal and had the air tests after, after 40+ years the stuff is so encapsulated it makes virtually no difference how its removed. I tell you all the plastic bags and duct tape is stupid beyond common sense.

All the hype is just that hype............... except the mines, but the removal is just stupid.


I am for the proper handling of uranium but I could give a crap less if a cable guy drills a hole in the wall with 2 babies and 12 pregnant women in the room. :D

JimN
03-20-2010, 07:30 PM
Been in debt since the mid 1800s...may as well get used to it.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/US_Federal_Debt.png

We only overshot our GDP in the '50s, after WWII. This will be very different- we do much less manufacturing, our GDP is much larger and other countries didn't own as much of the US as they do now.

Jorski
03-20-2010, 07:40 PM
We only overshot our GDP in the '50s, after WWII.

Well, "overshot our GDP" is strange way to look at it, as that graph is of the federal debt, not defecit. Not sure that I get your point


This will be very different- we do much less manufacturing, our GDP is much larger and other countries didn't own as much of the US as they do now.

"The four most dangerous words in investing are, 'This time it's different'" - Sir John Templeton

TX.X-30 fan
03-20-2010, 07:43 PM
Jimn,

Well, virtually every developed country in the world manages universal coverage for far less than your current costs. Not saying that this plan will do that. Just pointing out that it is certainly possible to do.


So why do Canadian govment officials travel to the US to have surgery's.


Same thing is wrong with the concept that health care is a right as is wrong with socialism/communism. Your system as well as all the other systems like yours are colossal failures by any rational measure.

Jorski
03-21-2010, 08:56 AM
Your system as well as all the other systems like yours are colossal failures by any rational measure.

And what "rational measure" says that your system isn't a colossal failure?

It isn't cost per capita, or sustainabiliy, or population served, or life span, or general health of the population....

bbymgr
03-21-2010, 10:53 AM
Personally, I think smoking should be eliminated and since it killed both of my parents, it's not debatable for me.




First, I completely agree with you. Smoking is horrible for everyone. I am just wondering what your contingency plan is. Philip Morris pays the Government 4.2 million dollars...........a day in taxes. Not a month, or a week; they pay this much every day. With Philip Morris producing 51% of the cigarettes on the market today, if you project that out including all of the other companies (Reynolds, Lorilard, Commonwealth....), that means you would loose over 8 million dollars a day in taxes. The country is already in a world of hurt, you know the government would have to tax something else to make up the difference. Both of my parents smoke. My dad since 1947, my mom since 1949. They will both tell you that they knew it was bad for them and they made there choice. I know that it is killing them right now as I type this, but they are happy the way they are, and don't want to change. I don't know what the answer is. I am just afraid of whatever they decide to tax the he!! out of next.

j2nh
03-21-2010, 11:02 AM
Jimn,

Well, virtually every developed country in the world manages universal coverage for far less than your current costs. Not saying that this plan will do that. Just pointing out that it is certainly possible to do.

Hey Jorski, on the surface that looks to be the case but the fact is you have to dig a little deeper to find the root cause for our unusually hight cost.

The US has the highest obesity rate in the world at 30.8% and consumers roughly 16% of our GDP. Canada has an obesity rate of 14% and it consumers 10% of its GDP.

Five preventable chronic diseases (heart disease, cancer, stroke, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, and diabetes) cause two-thirds of American deaths while 75 percent of total health expenditures are spent to treat chronic diseases that are largely preventable. In government programs, the problem is even worse with chronic disease spending consuming 96 cents of every Medicare dollar and 82 cents of every Medicaid dollar.

The only way we are going to get a handle on our HC costs will be if we start making better lifestyle choices and assume some personal responsibility.

JimN
03-21-2010, 11:02 AM
First, I completely agree with you. Smoking is horrible for everyone. I am just wondering what your contingency plan is. Philip Morris pays the Government 4.2 million dollars...........a day in taxes. Not a month, or a week; they pay this much every day. With Philip Morris producing 51% of the cigarettes on the market today, if you project that out including all of the other companies (Reynolds, Lorilard, Commonwealth....), that means you would loose over 8 million dollars a day in taxes. The country is already in a world of hurt, you know the government would have to tax something else to make up the difference. Both of my parents smoke. My dad since 1947, my mom since 1949. They will both tell you that they knew it was bad for them and they made there choice. I know that it is killing them right now as I type this, but they are happy the way they are, and don't want to change. I don't know what the answer is. I am just afraid of whatever they decide to tax the he!! out of next.

I don't know how to stop smokers from continuing, either. If they're stupid enough to use something that has been known for decades to be lethal in many ways, they can but I don't think they should be pay the same amount in premiums as people who take care of themselves. That's like paying death benefits for suicide.

I did see this AM that 16 Attorneys General plan to sue over the Nebraska bailout, the recent "Louisiana Purchase" and many other aspects of State's Rights that are being ignored. One example of a state that is opposed to the bill is Indiana- only about 38% are in favor of it in its current form. It's a CF and they know it, but they want to ram it through, anyway.

We need to reform the system but not this way.

JimN
03-21-2010, 11:08 AM
The only way we are going to get a handle on our HC costs will be if we start making better lifestyle choices and assume some personal responsibility.

That's absolutely right and there are almost no incentives for people to do it. They should be more active just for the initial benefits but when people would rather sit on their azz watching TV/playing video games while they earthworm their way through huge quantities of food, they have no choice but to become huge and unhealthy. The lack of preventive measures recommended by the insurance industry baffles me- they do everything possible to avoid paying benefits but they could save far more if they were to make fitness mandatory.

Jorski
03-21-2010, 12:40 PM
***The only way we are going to get a handle on our HC costs will be if we start making better lifestyle choices and assume some personal responsibility.***


That is absolutely correct.

That said, costs of litigation are far too high in the US and that also contributes significantly to the cost of medical care and does nothing to improve the quality of care given. Without tort reform, there is no way to reduce cost.

Also, the current US health care system is being run by insurance companies. The lack of competition in this area is another huge margin being taken out of health care delivery and put into the pockets of these companies. The legal protection these companies receive (which allows them to charge higher prices) by not having to face out of state competition is simply reprehensible.

Finally, the single largest cause of personal bankruptcy in the US is medical bills. There is simply something very wrong with that.

JimN
03-21-2010, 12:55 PM
***The only way we are going to get a handle on our HC costs will be if we start making better lifestyle choices and assume some personal responsibility.***


That is absolutely correct.

That said, costs of litigation are far too high in the US and that also contributes significantly to the cost of medical care and does nothing to improve the quality of care given. Without tort reform, there is no way to reduce cost.

Also, the current US health care system is being run by insurance companies. The lack of competition in this area is another huge margin being taken out of health care delivery and put into the pockets of these companies. The legal protection these companies receive (which allows them to charge higher prices) by not having to face out of state competition is simply reprehensible.

Finally, the single largest cause of personal bankruptcy in the US is medical bills. There is simply something very wrong with that.

Part of the issue with insurance companies is that they negotiate a settlement price with doctors and hospitals because they don't want to pay the full amount. It's no surprise that they then build all kinds of nice new buildings to hide the profits.

There's a lot wrong with the system and most of it has to do with lawyers & MBAs manipulating the tax code and squeezing the medical profession's cajones so they'll keep them in the preferred network. Making state lines a condition for in/out of network coverage is also a major problem.

Lobbyists own Congress and it will be our downfall. That, and the ignorance/indifference of the public.

j2nh
03-21-2010, 01:44 PM
We need tort reform no question. This is a couple of years old but illustrates part of the problem. Malpractice for General Practitioners.
Minnesota: $3375
Wisconsin: $3946

Florida: $57,859
Michigan: $38,000

We need more competition between insurers, crossing State lines would also help. The notion that the insurance companies are the root of all evil is just naive. Even if we took all of the profits from all of the insurance companies away from them we would not even dent the problem.

We need more systems like Wisconsin's where individuals with pre-existing conditions and have been turned down for insurance are put into a pool and affordable insurance can be purchased. I have a pre-existing back condition, water ski fall, am self employed and was able to purchase a good policy with very reasonable co-pays and deductibles for around $4500/year.

The problem is going to be made worse with government subsidized health care. Even less personal accountability than currently exists. Doctors and hospitals, for the most part, fix people when they are sick. Where is the incentive for people to stay healthy?

This is going to devastate local hospitals. Medicare reimburses our local hospital at 35 cents on the dollar, Medicaid 11 cents on the dollar. With the rolls of Medicaid going up how is going to work?

JimN
03-21-2010, 01:57 PM
We need tort reform no question. This is a couple of years old but illustrates part of the problem. Malpractice for General Practitioners.
Minnesota: $3375
Wisconsin: $3946

Florida: $57,859
Michigan: $38,000

We need more competition between insurers, crossing State lines would also help. The notion that the insurance companies are the root of all evil is just naive. Even if we took all of the profits from all of the insurance companies away from them we would not even dent the problem.

We need more systems like Wisconsin's where individuals with pre-existing conditions and have been turned down for insurance are put into a pool and affordable insurance can be purchased. I have a pre-existing back condition, water ski fall, am self employed and was able to purchase a good policy with very reasonable co-pays and deductibles for around $4500/year.

The problem is going to be made worse with government subsidized health care. Even less personal accountability than currently exists. Doctors and hospitals, for the most part, fix people when they are sick. Where is the incentive for people to stay healthy?

This is going to devastate local hospitals. Medicare reimburses our local hospital at 35 cents on the dollar, Medicaid 11 cents on the dollar. With the rolls of Medicaid going up how is going to work?

Who is your insurer? I have a friend who's paying $25K for a family of four and he's looking at over $30K if the bill goes through.

j2nh
03-21-2010, 02:20 PM
Health Insurance Risk Sharing Plan of Wisconsin
www.hirsp.org

Rates are online. They offer 3 plans, from a low deductible to a more catastrophic plan at a lower cost. In order to qualify you must be a Wisconsin resident and have one letter of denial from an insurance company. I applied with Assurant, was denied, did an online app with HRISP, sent in the qualifying documents and was insured. There is a 6 month waiting period for pre-existing conditions which is fair. If you drop the plan you are not eligible to re-enroll for I think two years.

As a disclaimer I am a customer and have no ties whatsoever to any insurance company in any field other than as a customer.

Jorski
03-21-2010, 04:17 PM
The notion that the insurance companies are the root of all evil is just naive. Even if we took all of the profits from all of the insurance companies away from them we would not even dent the problem.

That "notion", as you state it, completely misses the point. What matters is the rate at which costs are rising, not insurance company profits. The insurance companies have become the only watchdog in the entire system with regard to keeping a lid on rising costs.

Ask yourself, what is their incentive to do so? To a certain extent, they are incented at least in the short term to minimize payout under a current contract, ie they have received a premium (unearned) for a year and during that year they will payout medical costs on behalf of the insured; and what is left over will become an earned premium (profit).

In the long term; however, the amount that they can charge policy holders is relative to the potential loss that could be incurred if the client doesn't have insurance. In the longer term, make no mistake, rising prices are good for the insurance industry.

And prices have risen at rates far beyond the rate of inflation, about 6.7% per year.

So, your system as currently constructed is expanding at an alarming rate and is already the most expensive system in the world.

I will leave you with this recent, Warren Buffett comment:

The world's second-richest person called on Washington policymakers to adopt fundamental reforms on such costs to address what he called a "national emergency."

He said health care eats up 17 percent of U.S. gross domestic product, at a time when many other countries pay only nine or 10 percent of GDP but have more doctors, nurses and hospital beds per capita.

"It's like a tapeworm eating at our economic body," Buffett said on CNBC television.

"If it was a choice today between Plan A, which is what we've got, or Plan B, which is the Senate bill, I would vote for the Senate bill," he said. "But I would much rather see a Plan C that really attacks costs, and I think that's what the American public wants to see."

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE62022120100301

j2nh
03-21-2010, 07:11 PM
That "notion", as you state it, completely misses the point. What matters is the rate at which costs are rising, not insurance company profits. The insurance companies have become the only watchdog in the entire system with regard to keeping a lid on rising costs.


He said health care eats up 17 percent of U.S. gross domestic product, at a time when many other countries pay only nine or 10 percent of GDP but have more doctors, nurses and hospital beds per capita.



http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE62022120100301

No Jorski I do get it, but ask yourself how many time you have heard the insurance companies and their recent rate hikes as the root cause of the problem. They are not, they are a business that must take in more than they pay out. The recent recession has caused many young and healthy people, meaning no insurance payouts, to drop their health coverage which shifts the pool of insured people to a higher average age which translates into higher payouts and as a result higher premiums.

Buffet is correct but in my opinion misses the essential point that the US has the highest obesity rate in the world at 30.8% and we spend 17% GDP on health care. Again when you compare that to Canada at 14% obesity and 10% GDP you recognize the problem.

Question: If the US had an obesity rate of 14% like Canada, what would our health care GDP be? I am betting that it would be down around 10% and we would not be having this discussion. My opinion is that if you attack the cause of the need for health care you solve a large part of the problem. Preventative care, exercise, diet and probably punitive action against those things that lead to obesity. Soft drinks, snack food and fast food should probably be where we should be looking to finance HCR. Face it we would probably stop at McDonalds for a Big Mac Meal on the way to the hospital for an angioplasty.

Jorski
03-21-2010, 11:44 PM
Look, we agree about health prevention...though cutting your costs nearly in half is fairly optimistic. A great deal of costs occur near the end of life; if you reduce middle age onset of heart attack, stroke and some cancers through diet and exercise, you will for many, simply delay these costs until later in life.

The point is, that there is no one who is incented in the long run to reduce the growth in costs in your system...no one. At least in a single payer system ( gov.) they can slow the growth by placing a fixed value on procedures, and negotiating very large scale discounts on drugs etc. Further they can significantly limit legal costs, and are incented to do so when they are the payer and posess legislative powers.

TX.X-30 fan
03-22-2010, 04:01 PM
Look, we agree about health prevention...though cutting your costs nearly in half is fairly optimistic. A great deal of costs occur near the end of life; if you reduce middle age onset of heart attack, stroke and some cancers through diet and exercise, you will for many, simply delay these costs until later in life.

The point is, that there is no one who is incented in the long run to reduce the growth in costs in your system...no one. At least in a single payer system ( gov.) they can slow the growth by placing a fixed value on procedures, and negotiating very large scale discounts on drugs etc. Further they can significantly limit legal costs, and are incented to do so when they are the payer and posess legislative powers.



Simply insane utopian BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Untrue. The costs and increases are more atribited to govment regulation of who and how and where a company can do business.

TX.X-30 fan
03-22-2010, 04:03 PM
Kill grandma and grandpa is the only flocking answer socialists have for the situation



Soilent green Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Jorski
03-22-2010, 04:24 PM
Good article by David Frum, former Bush speech writer and hardcore righty....TX-30, he even gives a shout out to "those who want to murder your grandmother"!


David Frum: Obama hands Republicans their Waterloo
Posted: March 22, 2010, 10:25 AM by NP Editor
David Frum, U.S. Politics

Conservatives and Republicans on Sunday suffered their most crushing legislative defeat since the 1960s.

It’s hard to exaggerate the magnitude of the disaster. Conservatives may cheer themselves that they’ll compensate for Barack Obama's healthcare vote with a big win in the November 2010 elections. But:

(1) It’s a good bet that conservatives are over-optimistic about November – by then the economy will have improved and the immediate goodies in the healthcare bill will be reaching key voting blocs.

(2) So what? Legislative majorities come and go. This healthcare bill is forever. A win in November is very poor compensation for this debacle now.

So far, I think a lot of conservatives will agree with me. Now comes the hard lesson:

A huge part of the blame for today’s disaster attaches to conservatives and Republicans ourselves.

At the beginning of this process we made a strategic decision: unlike, say, Democrats in 2001 when President Bush proposed his first tax cut, we would make no deal with the administration. No negotiations, no compromise, nothing. We were going for all the marbles. This would be Obama’s Waterloo – just as healthcare was Clinton’s in 1994.

Only, the hardliners overlooked a few key facts: Obama was elected with 53% of the vote, not Clinton’s 42%. The liberal block within the Democratic congressional caucus is bigger and stronger than it was in 1993-94. And of course the Democrats also remember their history, and also remember the consequences of their 1994 failure.

This time, when we went for all the marbles, we ended with none.

Could a deal have been reached? Who knows? But we do know that the gap between this plan and traditional Republican ideas is not very big. The Obama plan has a broad family resemblance to Mitt Romney’s Massachusetts plan. It builds on ideas developed at the Heritage Foundation in the early 1990s that formed the basis for Republican counter-proposals to Clintoncare in 1993-1994.

Barack Obama badly wanted Republican votes for his plan. Could we have leveraged his desire to align the plan more closely with conservative views? To finance it without redistributive taxes on productive enterprise – without weighing so heavily on small business – without expanding Medicaid? Too late now. They are all the law.

No illusions please: This bill will not be repealed. Even if Republicans scored a 1994 style landslide in November, how many votes could we muster to re-open the “doughnut hole” and charge seniors more for prescription drugs? How many votes to re-allow insurers to rescind policies when they discover a pre-existing condition? How many votes to banish 25-year-olds from their parents’ insurance coverage? And even if the votes were there – would President Obama sign such a repeal?

We followed the most radical voices in the party and the movement, and they led us to abject and irreversible defeat.

There were leaders who knew better, who would have liked to deal. But they were trapped. Conservative talkers on Fox and talk radio had whipped the Republican voting base into such a frenzy that deal-making was rendered impossible. How do you negotiate with somebody who wants to murder your grandmother? Or – more exactly – with somebody whom your voters have been persuaded to believe wants to murder their grandmother?

I’ve been on a soapbox for months now about the harm that our overheated talk is doing to us. Yes it mobilizes supporters – but by mobilizing them with hysterical accusations and pseudo-information, overheated talk has made it impossible for representatives to represent and elected leaders to lead. The real leaders are on TV and radio, and they have very different imperatives from people in government. Talk radio thrives on confrontation and recrimination. When Rush Limbaugh said that he wanted President Obama to fail, he was intelligently explaining his own interests. What he omitted to say – but what is equally true – is that he also wants Republicans to fail. If Republicans succeed – if they govern successfully in office and negotiate attractive compromises out of office – Rush’s listeners get less angry. And if they are less angry, they listen to the radio less, and hear fewer ads for Sleepnumber beds.

So today’s defeat for free-market economics and Republican values is a huge win for the conservative entertainment industry. Their listeners and viewers will now be even more enraged, even more frustrated, even more disappointed in everybody except the responsibility-free talkers on television and radio. For them, it’s mission accomplished. For the cause they purport to represent, it’s Waterloo all right: ours.

National Post

Read more: http://network.nationalpost.com/NP/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2010/03/22/david-frum-obama-hands-republicans-their-waterloo.aspx#ixzz0iw1dwm7Y
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Jorski
03-22-2010, 04:28 PM
Simply insane utopian BS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Untrue

TX.X-30...Funny then that you pay more for prescription drugs made in your country than government funded systems pay for those very same drugs in every other country in the world. True.

JimN
03-22-2010, 05:02 PM
Look, we agree about health prevention...though cutting your costs nearly in half is fairly optimistic. A great deal of costs occur near the end of life; if you reduce middle age onset of heart attack, stroke and some cancers through diet and exercise, you will for many, simply delay these costs until later in life.

The point is, that there is no one who is incented in the long run to reduce the growth in costs in your system...no one. At least in a single payer system ( gov.) they can slow the growth by placing a fixed value on procedures, and negotiating very large scale discounts on drugs etc. Further they can significantly limit legal costs, and are incented to do so when they are the payer and posess legislative powers.

Heavy-handed governmental control makes people and corporations want to do something else. Putting limits on damages is fine, to a point. It also makes people care less about how well they do their job. The only thing that makes them care at that point is their malpractice insurance which, because the limits have been put in place, should cost less than it does now.

Governments don't and can't operate more efficiently than private enterprise- it costs too much for them to do anything and in case you missed it, while the private sector lost 400K jobs in the last quarter, the Federal Government added 39K jobs. How does your math balance that? Not only does the payroll need to be met but the 400K who lost their jobs won't be paying income tax.

JimN
03-22-2010, 05:04 PM
TX.X-30...Funny then that you pay more for prescription drugs made in your country than government funded systems pay for those very same drugs in every other country in the world. True.

You mean, name-brand or generic? Our system of patenting drugs makes name brands more expensive. Add the influence paid for by lobbyists and you can pretty much figure out where the cost differences come from.

BriEOD
03-22-2010, 06:11 PM
I should have known better than clicking on this thread. One more thing for the gov't to screw up. So much for free markets and competing businesses...

JimN
03-22-2010, 07:49 PM
I think that if they us to shop outside of our own state, it will be a good thing. Just about everything else can be bought over the internet and hopefully, the competition will help. Then, if we can get people to stop going to the ER when they stub their toe or have a headache, the need to recover from so much unpaid treatment will diminish. I'd like to have a hospital within a mile of my house but it closed, due to all of the ER visits.

TX.X-30 fan
03-22-2010, 08:09 PM
TX.X-30...Funny then that you pay more for prescription drugs made in your country than government funded systems pay for those very same drugs in every other country in the world. True.


If it all goes govment everywhere there will be no new drugs senior!!!!!

TX.X-30 fan
03-22-2010, 08:14 PM
David Frum is just the kind of centrist blue-blood country club republican that had McCain as the GOP candidate and we all see what happened with that. The party left its roots to go for moderation and it losses elections everytime. His suggestion in that article for us all to hug and give in to this creeping socialism is THE problem.

They are at they tipping point and they all have weapons.

Jorski
03-22-2010, 08:24 PM
David Frum is just the kind of centrist blue-blood country club republican

That would be the first time he was EVER described that way. He's way right.

KnoxX2
03-22-2010, 08:42 PM
I think its funny Jorski only participates in political discussions on a boating forum!! Just calling it like I see it!!:rolleyes:

Skipper
03-22-2010, 09:18 PM
Too cold to boat in Canada. And if you get hurt, they have that public health insurance. Proabably can't get taken care of because you shouldn't have been boating, it is risky behavior that is not covered under the law.

JimN
03-22-2010, 09:41 PM
That would be the first time he was EVER described that way. He's way right.

Depends on where you're from. Some wouldn't think he's conservative enough.

TX.X-30 fan
03-23-2010, 11:45 AM
Depends on where you're from. Some wouldn't think he's conservative enough.


The opinions and statements in the article put him square in the moderates camp, the moderates have driven the party into the ground for years now, I say we try Reagan conservatism again.

Jorski
03-23-2010, 01:02 PM
I say we try Reagan conservatism again

Meaning it would be good to triple the national debt in 8 years but give really great speaches...sounds a lot like Obama now doesn't it.;)

Skipper
03-23-2010, 01:58 PM
Karl Marx sounds a lot like Obama now

SkiDog
03-23-2010, 02:06 PM
Meaning it would be good to triple the national debt in 8 years but give really great speaches...sounds a lot like Obama now doesn't it.;)

What the hell do you think Obama is doing NOW?!??!?!?!?! He thinks this is HIS country, not ours!

TX.X-30 fan
03-23-2010, 04:14 PM
Meaning it would be good to triple the national debt in 8 years but give really great speaches...sounds a lot like Obama now doesn't it.;)


Shirley you jest.................. what a crock -O- Sh!t. I would if I were a revisionist liberal/ commi/socialists.............. I would leave out what happened to revenue to the treasury.


By any measure one of the greatest leaders the world has ever seen, I'm sure you would disagree and foist Mao into that statement.




Reagan had no trouble speaking extemporaneously unlike the man-child there now.

SkiDog
03-23-2010, 04:29 PM
Shirley you jest.................. what a crock -O- Sh!t. I would if I were a revisionist liberal/ commi/socialists.............. I would leave out what happened to revenue to the treasury.


By any measure one of the greatest leaders the world has ever seen, I'm sure you would disagree and foist Mao into that statement.




Reagan had no trouble speaking extemporaneously unlike the man-child there now.

Did Reagan have to use tele-prompters?:uglyhamme

JimN
03-23-2010, 04:55 PM
Did Reagan have to use tele-prompters?:uglyhamme

They all do/did- some are just more dependent than others.

I wonder what he does if he wants fast food.

Jorski
03-23-2010, 05:09 PM
** I would leave out what happened to revenue to the treasury.**

Actually, a lot can be learned by including it. Revenue to treasury, huh. Ahhh, good old Laffer Curve voodoo, knew that would come up.

Tax receipts go up virtually all of the time, whether you "cut taxes" or not. This is because the vast majority of the time GDP is growing. Over his eight years, tax receipts doubled (not quite, but almost) while the federal debt more than tripled.

He did lots of geat things, but the blind belief in his economics is curious to anyone who actually looks objectively at the facts.

His first tax cut when he took office was big one, but seven of the other eight tax bills introduced in his tenure raised taxes. Of course there was a fair amount of re-distribution, which meant cuts for some and increases for others.

Reagan had no trouble speaking extemporaneously unlike the man-child there now.

Maybe in the first term, but by the end he was suffering from alzheimers.

Skipper
03-23-2010, 09:02 PM
He could still whoop your arse in a bar fight.

bbymgr
03-23-2010, 09:41 PM
He could still whoop your arse in a bar fight.

................and he's six feet under.

Jorski
03-23-2010, 11:26 PM
He could still whoop your arse in a bar fight.

at least one of the characters he played could have

TX.X-30 fan
03-24-2010, 01:13 PM
at least one of the characters he played could have



Got my money on Bonzo!!! :D

Skipper
03-24-2010, 01:55 PM
Sorry, I cannot support Bonzo because he is a pot head.

TX.X-30 fan
03-24-2010, 02:11 PM
Sorry, I cannot support Bonzo because he is a pot head.




Bugler, he rolls his own. :D

Monte
03-24-2010, 04:23 PM
Sorry, I cannot support Bonzo because he is a pot head.

Funny, I thought he had a piece of asparagus stuck in his teeth.

Jorski
03-24-2010, 05:49 PM
Sorry, I cannot support Bonzo because he is a pot head.


What?

Do you mean to tell me that the "Say No to Drugs" President would allow for laws and regulation made by the government to interfere with a US Citizen's right to do whatever he wants ?

Sounds like an unconstitutional attack on the freedoms and liberties guaranteed to individuals by the framers. The War on Drugs sounds, well, ummm, COMMUNIST!;)

BoulderX45
03-24-2010, 07:35 PM
The point is, that there is no one who is incented in the long run to reduce the growth in costs in your system...no one. At least in a single payer system ( gov.) they can slow the growth by placing a fixed value on procedures, and negotiating very large scale discounts on drugs etc. Further they can significantly limit legal costs, and are incented to do so when they are the payer and posess legislative powers.[/QUOTE]

The Canadians control cost by not giving timely health care. They control cost by not buying enough equipment to support the needed health care. Canadians get hurt and they suffer through the pain because the doctor's appointment is six to eight weeks out. A Canadian can injury his knee wakeboarding, go to a e-room and wait because it is not life threatening, be told to go see his doctor, which takes three to four weeks for the appointment, then the doctor schedules the MRI, which again is a six week wait, and then is told he needs knee surgery which again is a wait. The Canadian has not spent a dime of his own money, is walking fine, and wakeboarding with a bum knee and he thinks it great because he know no different.

Jorski
03-24-2010, 09:01 PM
Boulder...do you really believe that **** that you wrote.

I live here in Canada, and though anecdotal it may be, my experience in the system demonstrates that those wait times that you quote are complete and utter rubbish. You must have had your Glen Beck handbook handy.

-I went to a walk in clinic yesterday to see a doctor..wait time, 30 minutes; instant strep test, prescription in hand.

-When I tore apart my shoulder snow skiing, I was seen in emergency right away; then saw an orthopedic surgeon the next day, had surgery 3 days after that.

-My son had some adrenal issues this past winter...saw a host of endocrinology specialists immediately.

- Earlier today my son woke up feeling ill, called his pediatrician at 7:30 this morning, he was seen by her at 3:30pm same day.

I could go on, but your story is just plain silly. There are lots of problems with our system, no doubt, but what you wrote is nonsense.

TX.X-30 fan
03-24-2010, 10:57 PM
Why do your doctors, nurses and kings come here then.......................... Haaaaaaaaaaa







Boulder...do you really believe that **** that you wrote.

I live here in Canada, and though anecdotal it may be, my experience in the system demonstrates that those wait times that you quote are complete and utter rubbish. You must have had your Glen Beck handbook handy.

-I went to a walk in clinic yesterday to see a doctor..wait time, 30 minutes; instant strep test, prescription in hand.

-When I tore apart my shoulder snow skiing, I was seen in emergency right away; then saw an orthopedic surgeon the next day, had surgery 3 days after that.

-My son had some adrenal issues this past winter...saw a host of endocrinology specialists immediately.

- Earlier today my son woke up feeling ill, called his pediatrician at 7:30 this morning, he was seen by her at 3:30pm same day.

I could go on, but your story is just plain silly. There are lots of problems with our system, no doubt, but what you wrote is nonsense.

TX.X-30 fan
03-24-2010, 11:00 PM
Exactly how the system works!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go to a big city up in the great frozen tundra and say it aint so!!!!






The Canadians control cost by not giving timely health care. They control cost by not buying enough equipment to support the needed health care. Canadians get hurt and they suffer through the pain because the doctor's appointment is six to eight weeks out. A Canadian can injury his knee wakeboarding, go to a e-room and wait because it is not life threatening, be told to go see his doctor, which takes three to four weeks for the appointment, then the doctor schedules the MRI, which again is a six week wait, and then is told he needs knee surgery which again is a wait. The Canadian has not spent a dime of his own money, is walking fine, and wakeboarding with a bum knee and he thinks it great because he know no different.

Jorski
03-24-2010, 11:40 PM
TX...you ever even been here?

You believe what you want to believe. Don't let facts or experience get in the way of what Rush told you!

Monte
03-25-2010, 12:29 AM
Jorski! I personnally don't give a good :) How freaking happy YOU are with the socialist Bull**** Healthcare you have there. Move your happy *** to the Southeast United States and watch mother ****ers sit on their asses on their front porch during the day eating fried ****ing chicken while you work. Listen to those worthless mother ****ers cuss you. Knowing that they won't EVER get up off their asses to lift a :) finger. THEY COULD but they won't because they are living off the teet of the federal government here. They won't flip a ****ing burger because that would demean them, but they can sure as hell sip a 40 on my dime whilst roosting on the porch and let ME pay for their medical care. All the while telling me the 5.0 better back the **** off thier skrip. Until you walk a mile in these shoes, back the F OFF:mad:

Jorski
03-25-2010, 01:59 AM
Monte,

All I have pointed out is the following:

1) Your country spends an unsustainable amount (as a %of GDP) on your medical system, and it's growing...this is NOT a political or idealogical statement; just a financially logical one.

2) The way the Canadian system gets described is incorrect to the point of hilarity

3) That the cost of medical bills in the US is the single biggest cause of personal bankruptcy

4) That pre-existing conditions and the uninsured (most of whom do work) are a big problem

5) That the tort system for medical malpractice in the US is costing you huge money

6) That your current sytem relies upon insurers to regulate the growth in health care costs

Nothing here that should make you so angry. Also, nothing here that should fire up TX.X-30 so easily (though it does).

By the way, you probably are already paying the medical bills for those folks that you despise under current medicaid system.

Monte
03-25-2010, 09:06 AM
Monte,

All I have pointed out is the following:

1) Your country spends an unsustainable amount (as a %of GDP) on your medical system, and it's growing...this is NOT a political or idealogical statement; just a financially logical one.
Taking the money from those who choose to work to give programs (people) who refuse to work is something I have an issue with. Note: I did not say cannot work due to true disability
2) The way the Canadian system gets described is incorrect to the point of hilarity. OK, then why did your prime minister general come here for an operation?
3) That the cost of medical bills in the US is the single biggest cause of personal bankruptcy. That is simply not true, those bills are sent out, and ignored 90% of the time.

4) That pre-existing conditions and the uninsured (most of whom do work) are a big problem.
Prexisting conditions are only an issue when you have had a 63 or more day lapse in coverage. Or you have less than 18 mos worth of credible coverage. As long as you secure coverage within the 63 days of leaving a plan this is not even an issue.


5) That the tort system for medical malpractice in the US is costing you huge money.
This bill does nothing to correct this issue


6) That your current sytem relies upon insurers to regulate the growth in health care costs
Insurers are the only entities who actually PAY the bills. Private individuals don't pay for the most part and Medicaid pays 60% on the dollar for care.

Nothing here that should make you so angry. Also, nothing here that should fire up TX.X-30 so easily (though it does).

By the way, you probably are already paying the medical bills for those folks that you despise under current medicaid system. Yes Jorski, we already are paying those bills through medicaid. Problem with the "new" system, it does nothing to end the old, it is in addition.

funk
03-25-2010, 12:03 PM
"last sunday they passed a health care plan written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that exempts themselves from it, to be signed by a president who smokes, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that's broke. What could possibly go wrong?"

aremsing
03-25-2010, 12:57 PM
Funk that's the best quote I've seen in a while

j2nh
03-25-2010, 01:37 PM
[QUOTE=Monte;667290]Monte,

All I have pointed out is the following:





4) That pre-existing conditions and the uninsured (most of whom do work) are a big problem.
Prexisting conditions are only an issue when you have had a 63 or more day lapse in coverage. Or you have less than 18 mos worth of credible coverage. As long as you secure coverage within the 63 days of leaving a plan this is not even an issue.
35 States have high risk pools for coverage of those turned down for pre-existing conditions. Wisconsin coverage, which I mentioned earlier is very reasonably priced and has excellent coverage


6) That your current sytem relies upon insurers to regulate the growth in health care costs
Insurers are the only entities who actually PAY the bills. Private individuals don't pay for the most part and Medicaid pays 60% on the dollar for care.

60%? Not even close. Medicare reimburses our local hospital 35 cents on the billed dollar and Medicaid reimburses at 11 cents on the dollar! What happens when 500 billion is trimmed from Medicare to pay for HCR in the next 10 years?

Jorski
03-25-2010, 02:17 PM
OK, then why did your prime minister general come here for an operation?

For the record, there is no such thing as a prime minister general . I can only assume that you are referring to Danny Williams, who is the Premier of Newfoundland.

I can't speak to why he made this choice, though there is often a perception that medical care is better in the US - at the top end. Or sometimes, people wish to see a particular specialists with a big reputation.

There is a Canadian doctor, Dr. Anthony Galea, currently charged with illegal importation of drugs that performed a unique therapy for muscle tissue injuries...Many of your top US athletes flocked to Toronto to see him including Tiger Woods and Alex Rodriguez. Is he better? Don't know. Might even be a criminal?

The sports medicine clinic at the University of Western Ontario was one of the pioneers in using arthroscopy for knee surgery. Before this was common place, US sports teams were routinely sending atheletes here to have their knees scoped.

Does this mean anything? No. People travel all over the place to get surgery; it doesn't always mean that the place they go is better. Does China really do the best liver and kidney transplants in the world? Not likely, but a lot of US citizens go there and other places for procedures. There are no shortages of US patients seeking unproven and often fake medicine in Mexico for cancer treatment.

The reasons people seek medical attention in other countries can be odd.

A study was conducted about how many Canadians actually seek medical attention in the US and it found that the numbers were very small. Particularily when you weed out those that fell ill while traveling in the US and the treatment of Snowbirds (elderly who live in the warmer parts of the US for the winter).

Here is the study if you would like to look at facts rather than rhetoric:

Phantoms In The Snow: Canadians’ Use Of Health Care Services In The United States
Steven J. Katz, Karen Cardiff, Marina Pascali, Morris L. Barer and Robert G. Evans

Abstract

To examine the extent to which Canadian residents seek medical care across the border, we collected data about Canadians’ use of services from ambulatory care facilities and hospitals located in Michigan, New York State, and Washington State during 1994–1998. We also collected information from several Canadian sources, including the 1996 National Population Health Survey, the provincial Ministries of Health, and the Canadian Life and Health Insurance Association. Results from these sources do not support the widespread perception that Canadian residents seek care extensively in the United States. Indeed, the numbers found are so small as to be barely detectible relative to the use of care by Canadians at home.

http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/21/3/19?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=snow&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1


By the way, I wonder how many politicians in Canada, have stayed home to have surgery? The answer would be many more than him.

captain planet
03-25-2010, 02:19 PM
Propoganda, propoganda, propoganda.....I didn't realize that John Boehner (pronounced boner) had so much influence outside Ohio. I thought only those of us that lived in Ohio had to suffer through listening to him.

Carbon Dreams
03-25-2010, 05:03 PM
I find it quite disturbing that we (All of America) have given so much blind faith to a bunch of corrupt entities in DC. We have gladly given them carte blanche to do whatever whenever they choose. I fear that the decisions made and the rights and freedoms gladly given away, are the reason why this Democracy has failed. We now have a Bill that has been passed without the consent of the American people or at least the proper insight of the Doctors. The doctor/patient relationship is extremely important for both the doctor and patient. It looks like we are moving into a new era of assembly line medicine. People are numbers and will be treated as such. Of course, this is all funded by you and I against our will. I do not support mandatory funding under financial penalty for non-compliance. Now lawyers, and the IRS are in control of your health. Scary! This Bill has been crafted by very smart Lawyers who's only purpose is to demand control and ultimately run out of town any competitors i.e. insurance providers. That way you only have one choice, to comply comrade. Be very, very afraid of the future. It is disgusting that so many have given authority to DC and are unwilling to take responsibility for their own actions.

I hope I'm wrong. I'll be the first to stand up and say so. The proof will play out...

Skipper
03-25-2010, 07:18 PM
....
There is a Canadian doctor, Dr. Anthony Galea, currently charged with illegal importation of drugs that performed a unique therapy for muscle injuries...Many of your top US atheletes flocked to Toronto to see him including Tiger Woods and Alex Rodriguez. Is he better? Don't know. Might even be a criminal?

His Viagra is three times more powerful than the American stuff. The only thing in Canada better than America. 8p

scott023
03-25-2010, 07:29 PM
His Viagra is three times more powerful than the American stuff. The only thing in Canada better than America. 8p

There, the line has been crossed officially. :rolleyes:

dog paw
03-25-2010, 08:07 PM
His Viagra is three times more powerful than the American stuff. The only thing in Canada better than America. 8p

I dunno, met some pretty straight up people up there and consumed some mighty good booze. At the rate things are slipping away here we might need some of those "non gun owning" ;) butt kicking Canadians in our corner

Jorski
03-25-2010, 08:17 PM
His Viagra is three times more powerful than the American stuff. The only thing in Canada better than America

Hey,

We have good beer, great looking women, beautiful lakes and the current women's world waterskiing champion...it really is okay up here!8p

JimN
03-25-2010, 08:33 PM
Hey,

We have good beer, great looking women, beautiful lakes and the current women's world waterskiing champion...it really is okay up here!8p

But it's even colder than here! :eek:

TX.X-30 fan
03-25-2010, 10:35 PM
The canadian health care system as well as all the other universal systems a broken beyond repair because nothing worth having is free!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All the facts in the world back me up.



The funny thing aboot all this is it has nothing to do with medicine and all to do with communism.

bbymgr
03-25-2010, 11:39 PM
His Viagra is three times more powerful than the American stuff. The only thing in Canada better than America. 8p

................they do make better Canadian Whiskey.:rolleyes:

Jorski
03-26-2010, 12:47 AM
All the facts in the world back me up.

The world's biggest sweeping generalization EVER!

The canadian health care system as well as all the other universal systems a broken beyond repair because nothing worth having is free!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Again, silly of you. No one ever said it was free, we pay taxes to fund our medical system. Isn't that the very point that you have been struggling to make for months on this issue, namely that you don't want to pay taxes to fund your system?

There is one economy, and one ultimate payer: you, and me and every one else. Businesses are just legal entities, and governments (inefficient or not) get every penny of revenue from you.

You exaggerate the economic impact of who pays, just as much as your proclamations about universal health care make little sense.

If you don't think that 19% of GDP represents a healthcare system "broken beyond repair" you are really kidding yourself.

JimN
03-26-2010, 04:41 AM
http://www.newsrealblog.com/2010/03/24/rep-dingell-admits-obamacare-is-all-about-control/

Representative John Dingell (D-MI) inadvertently divulged the end goal of the Democrats yesterday during a radio interview: They need to control we rubes. They will stop at nothing to further that agenda and achieve that goal.

We knew this already, but the left is now making no attempt to even mask it. This also is further proof, as if we needed any, that there is no such thing as a “conservative democrat.”

It has nothing to do with health care. It has everything to do with power and control of the pesky citizenry. From The Foundry:

Here is audio of Congressman John Dingell (D-MI), a champion of this legislation telling radio host Paul Smith on WJR in Detroit: “It takes a long time to do the necessary administrative steps that have to be taken to put the legislation together to control the people.” Rep. Dingell has held his seat in Michigan for over 55 years. That is certainly a long time before he finally achieved his goals to “control the people.”

Jorski
03-26-2010, 10:20 AM
You are kidding right?

An incomplete statement by a really old guy? In that clip he was likely talking about the dems and the support staff etc.

Sound bite, a-ha moments like that really weaken your argument.

JimN
03-26-2010, 10:34 AM
You are kidding right?

An incomplete statement by a really old guy? In that clip he was likely talking about the dems and the support staff etc.

Sound bite, a-ha moments like that really weaken your argument.

So, why don't you enlighten us and post the rest of the story? You're saying it's OK for him to have said this "because he's really old"? That's BS! If he's in Congress, he should be responsible for his comments and not use the ever-popular "that was taken out of context". If he meant 'Insurance industry' when he said "people", he should have had the presence of mind to correct himself at that time.

What argument" I posted a link to his comments. Show me where I posted a single word about this one way, or another.

Carbon Dreams
03-26-2010, 01:09 PM
The vocal Canadian contingent on this forum seems to be very confrontational regarding anything to do with government control. I suppose that should not be a surprise since they have been living in an increasingly communist country under the name of democracy. Sad, really.

Since when is it the federal governments job to force taxes, under penalty, to pay for social programs that cater to those who have no intent of ever contributing to society? Are there those who cannot work or contribute due to mental or physical states, yes. Are there those with mental disorders and physical handicap's i.e. downs syndrome, spinal injuries etc... working at places like McDonald's or Walmart, yes. These are generalizations but speak to the issue. What it comes down to is that people, when given the choice, tend to prefer to be given rules to live by. Therefore it is far too easy for any government to enact control over a population. America has been the longest lasting democracy in history. To consider the current state of this country a democracy by the people, for the people, is living with blinders on. Unfortunately, we have been living with the assumption and hope that we are "free" in America. We are just a little bit more free than the rest of the world, just barely. Sad, that it has taken so long for the population to discover how much control the fed has over us.

The liberal left has let "it" slip out over the last few years. It, being their agenda. Ultimate power and control over the population cannot be allowed and forced over people that consider themselves free. That is the making of a revolution sponsored by the federal gvmt. Why is it that those that argue for freedom are labeled as extremists and should not be listened to? Is it perhaps, that they are the few that see the light and are the most dangerous to the agenda?

Food for thought.

captain planet
03-26-2010, 02:16 PM
This health care mess really had me split. Something had to be done to change what is obviously broken. This just came to my attention.....and it makes me sick, I mean literally sick to my stomach. I would only hope that people will flat out reject this, law or not. I'll put it to you this way, the only way they will get one of these in me.....is after I'm dead. :mad:

http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/3193-national-healthcare-will-require-national-rfid-chips

I saw this in the movie zeitgeist and thought it would never happen in my lifetime. I guess I was wrong.

Carbon Dreams
03-26-2010, 02:27 PM
This health care mess really had me split. Something had to be done to change what is obviously broken. This just came to my attention.....and it makes me sick, I mean literally sick to my stomach. I would only hope that people will flat out reject this, law or not. I'll put it to you this way, the only way they will get one of these in me.....is after I'm dead. :mad:

http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/3193-national-healthcare-will-require-national-rfid-chips

I saw this in the movie zeitgeist and thought it would never happen in my lifetime. I guess I was wrong.

I think that all of us that recognize this as "wrong", are correct. Remember all that will come to pass, will be under the name of "safety" and "security". After all, how are you to tell who is bad or good? How else are we supposed to feel "safe"? Those that conform are good and those that don't are naturally bad. Thank goodness for a Federal Government that will protect you from bad guys. Yowza, folks...Be vigilant and protect your rights, they are no longer a priority of our elected officials.

Edit: RFID chips have long been dismissed as "conspiracy theories". They cannot possibly be used to control the population, or so say the experts. The fact that the discussion is still intact since around 2001 or so, indicates that it is still a valid issue. Time will tell all. Just don't get suckered into submission...

captain planet
03-26-2010, 02:39 PM
I think that all of us that recognize this as "wrong", are correct. Remember all that will come to pass, will be under the name of "safety" and "security". After all, how are you to tell who is bad or good? How else are we supposed to feel "safe"? Those that conform are good and those that don't are naturally bad. Thank goodness for a Federal Government that will protect you from bad guys. Yowza, folks...Be vigilant and protect your rights, they are no longer a priority of our elected officials.

I literally just found out about this and I have to tell you....I might as well leave work because my mind is racing and I can think of little else. I often thought about how far you have to push people to take part in something like, say, the Revolutionary War. I'm starting to wonder if they are pushing that line?

I know this post really sounds "out there", but I'm so mad right now I can't see straight. :mad:

captain planet
03-26-2010, 02:41 PM
Here is another log on the fire...for me anyway. :mad::rant:

>
> Here's another endplay around the Constitutional process. Dare we call
> it treason yet?
>
> U.S. reverses stance on treaty to regulate arms trade
>
> WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States reversed policy on Wednesday
> and said it would back launching talks on a treaty to regulate arms
> sales as long as the talks operated by consensus, a stance critics said
> gave every nation a veto.
>
> The decision, announced in a statement released by the U.S. State
> Department, overturns the position of former President George W. Bush's
> administration, which had opposed such a treaty on the grounds that
> national controls were better.
>
> On Wednesday Obama Took the First Major Step in a Plan to Ban All
> Firearms in the United States . The Obama administration intends to
> force gun control and a complete ban on all weapons for US citizens
> through the signing of international treaties with foreign nations. By
> signing international treaties on gun control, the Obama administration
> can use the US State Department to bypass the normal legislative
> process in Congress. Once the US Government signs these international
> treaties, all US citizens will be subject to those gun laws created by
> foreign governments. These are laws that have been developed and
> promoted by organizations such as the United Nations and individuals
> such as George Soros and Michael Bloomberg. The laws are designed and
> intended to lead to the complete ban and confiscation of all firearms.
>
> The Obama administration is attempting to use tactics and methods of
> gun control that will inflict major damage to our 2nd Amendment before
> US citizens even understand what has happened. Obama can appear before
> the public and tell them that he does not intend to pursue any
> legislation (in the United States ) that will lead to new gun control
> laws, while cloaked in secrecy, his Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton
> is committing the US to international treaties and foreign gun control
> laws. Does that mean Obama is telling the truth? What it means is that
> there will be no publicized gun control debates in the media or votes
> in Congress. We will wake up one morning and find that the United
> States has signed a treaty that prohibits firearm and ammunition
> manufacturers from selling to the public. We will wake up another
> morning and find that the US has signed a treaty that prohibits any
> transfer of firearm ownership. And then, we will wake up yet another
> morning and find that the US has signed a treaty that requires US
> citizens to deliver any firearm they own to the local government
> collection and destruction center or face imprisonment.
>
> This is neither a joke nor a false warning. As sure as government
> health care will be forced on us by the Obama administration through
> whatever means necessary, so will gun control.
>
> Please forward this message to others who may be concerned about the
> direction in which our country is headed.
>
> We are being led like a lamb to the slaughter (Socialism/Dictatorship).
>
> The Full Article Here:
> http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSTRE59E0Q920091015

Carbon Dreams
03-26-2010, 03:24 PM
It is my opinion that the Health Care bill will be tipping point for our fragile government. I expect that the outcome will determine who are defined as enemies of the state or allies. The fear is that those that don't comply and are self reliant are deemed as enemies. This view has been labeled "scare tactics" by the liberal left. The liberals follow the jab with a left hook which is... if you don't have anything to hide, why are you so concerned with the policy. That is a blanket statement for the pocket agenda. It is my opinion that we have only seen the beginning of the storm.

scott023
03-26-2010, 04:48 PM
The vocal Canadian contingent on this forum seems to be very confrontational regarding anything to do with government control. I suppose that should not be a surprise since they have been living in an increasingly communist country under the name of democracy. Sad, really.

Since when is it the federal governments job to force taxes, under penalty, to pay for social programs that cater to those who have no intent of ever contributing to society? Are there those who cannot work or contribute due to mental or physical states, yes. Are there those with mental disorders and physical handicap's i.e. downs syndrome, spinal injuries etc... working at places like McDonald's or Walmart, yes. These are generalizations but speak to the issue. What it comes down to is that people, when given the choice, tend to prefer to be given rules to live by. Therefore it is far too easy for any government to enact control over a population. America has been the longest lasting democracy in history. To consider the current state of this country a democracy by the people, for the people, is living with blinders on. Unfortunately, we have been living with the assumption and hope that we are "free" in America. We are just a little bit more free than the rest of the world, just barely. Sad, that it has taken so long for the population to discover how much control the fed has over us.

The liberal left has let "it" slip out over the last few years. It, being their agenda. Ultimate power and control over the population cannot be allowed and forced over people that consider themselves free. That is the making of a revolution sponsored by the federal gvmt. Why is it that those that argue for freedom are labeled as extremists and should not be listened to? Is it perhaps, that they are the few that see the light and are the most dangerous to the agenda?

Food for thought.

I haven't been one of the "confrontational" ones, but your comments seem to seek confrontation...why don't you enlighten us on how our country has "been living in an increasingly communist country under the name of democracy". You seem like one of those ignorant americans that thinks you know everything that happens outside of your own backyard when you really know nothing. You and Jorski should sit down and have it out, as you both come off as know it alls.
Most people have patriotism towards their countries for good reason... both the US and Canada have a lot going for them that most countries in the world can only dream of. I'll stick to doing what I can to make my country a better place and refrain from throwing stones that will most likely bounce back at me. You should do the same.

Carbon Dreams
03-26-2010, 06:17 PM
I haven't been one of the "confrontational" ones, but your comments seem to seek confrontation...why don't you enlighten us on how our country has "been living in an increasingly communist country under the name of democracy". You seem like one of those ignorant americans that thinks you know everything that happens outside of your own backyard when you really know nothing. You and Jorski should sit down and have it out, as you both come off as know it alls.
Most people have patriotism towards their countries for good reason... both the US and Canada have a lot going for them that most countries in the world can only dream of. I'll stick to doing what I can to make my country a better place and refrain from throwing stones that will most likely bounce back at me. You should do the same.

You read comments and make decisions based on your frame of mind. We all have opinions and make decisions based on our level of education. Come on man, you say we are know-it-all's yet you seem to have it all figured out. Hypocrisy has no bounds, it appears. You can think or say what you would like. That is the nature of forums. Observations are much different than throwing stones. Your northern arrogance is somehow out of line with what reality is. No stones being thrown nor personal attacks intended. The issue at hand is socialism not whether Canada is superior to the US. I grow tired of pro socialism comments coming from those that have limited at best life experience without living in socialism. As a question only...What are you required to pay in taxes by percent in Canada? I'm ignorant on that fact. I suppose that I could do some of my own research on that matter, but you should know, right?

Carbon Dreams
03-26-2010, 06:58 PM
Not my words, but...

"A legitimate democracy is one that is representative of the people. One where the people’s will is represented in government, not where the government’s will is enforced on the people. A democratic system should spell out the absolute rights of its citizens in a clear and understandable manner rather than the absolute rights of a sovereign to rule, whether symbolically or otherwise. Furthermore, these rights should not be allowed to be cast away by use of a notwithstanding clause. Indeed, limiting a person’s liberty should be very difficult for a government to change. Can it be claimed that the Canadian system is truly a democracy when the system allows one person, who is not even nationally elected, to wield supreme executive power with little restraint? Might it not be said that while the US model is much less efficient, it is a much more democratically representative by forcing a greater consensus among representatives?" http://www.unitednorthamerica.org/democracy.htm

Let me make my point clear. Regardless of our northern neighbors view of us ignorant Americans, we have and will always have the desire to be free. This means free from absolute control of the Federal Government. The US is a Republic! We will always fight for freedom and disagree with Socialism by definition as it relates to personal freedoms. Our forefather's laid out framework that, if followed, keeps the power of government limited and the power of the people strong. I make my political decisions based on the freedom that I would like to preserve for my children and their children. To do anything else is foolish. I absolutely do not know-it-all, yet strive to know all that I can. Studying world history and learning why societies failed all over the Globe seems to come down to one thing. Absolute power is the surest way to self-destruction. Is there one sure solution to fixing what is broken in this country, nope. Basically a complete overhaul is all that will work.

scott023
03-26-2010, 07:45 PM
You read comments and make decisions based on your frame of mind. We all have opinions and make decisions based on our level of education. Come on man, you say we are know-it-all's yet you seem to have it all figured out. Hypocrisy has no bounds, it appears. You can think or say what you would like. That is the nature of forums. Observations are much different than throwing stones. Your northern arrogance is somehow out of line with what reality is. No stones being thrown nor personal attacks intended. The issue at hand is socialism not whether Canada is superior to the US. I grow tired of pro socialism comments coming from those that have limited at best life experience without living in socialism. As a question only...What are you required to pay in taxes by percent in Canada? I'm ignorant on that fact. I suppose that I could do some of my own research on that matter, but you should know, right?

I didn't address any issue, other than your ignorant comment towards this country. I fail to see what I "have all figured out" by my post. I only addressed your comment, not the issue of the thread. I certainly wasn't speaking of all Americans being ignorant, that couldn't be further from the truth. If your 'communist country' comment wasn't throwing a stone, I don't know what is. I won't touch the issue that Americans are currently having, because I really don't know enough, nor do I care enough, to make it a priority. I do know that both countries have a lot of room for improvement, and dishing out insults on this forum certainly won't do anything to help make the issues go away...

KnoxX2
03-26-2010, 08:16 PM
I do know that both countries have a lot of room for improvement, and dishing out insults on this forum certainly won't do anything to help make the issues go away...

I think this is the best thing anyone has said today!!!!

Now the question is how can we ...... as in the citizen........ do to improve the hand that has been given us?

I personally feel it starts at a local level! Know who your local representative is and make them aware of your feelings. Then do your part to make your friends and neighbors aware of whats going on and encourage them to do the same. Pressure from the people!!!!

Answer this question: Why don't more people invoke their right to vote in the smaller elections?

BoulderX45
03-26-2010, 08:32 PM
I guess I'm wrong! I travel to BC, Surrey BC (twice a month for 10 years) to be exact, and I hear, and see, this everytime I'm in the the factory floors talking to the people who work on those floors. I've had them tell me these stories about ankle issues, knee issues, ect. But, as I said at the beginning I'm wrong.
Just for giggles, compare the number of MRI machines per capita between the two countries. That number might tell you why, the Canadians with the money, again talked to the Canadian people myself, get on planes and fly in the United States, and get MRI screenings the same or next day.

TX.X-30 fan
03-26-2010, 08:38 PM
It does seem funny how canadians want so bad for us to be miserable with health care just like they are??? They want us to be taxed to death just like they are, what's next we can't ship a package without filing forms and donating blood like the world class canadian postal system??

Keep your way of life your draft dodgers your bizarre alternate life-styles and all your doctors, nurses and patients that can't wait to practice in the worst system on the planet!!!!!!!!!!!!


Fidel Castro likes the health care bill just like all the good-for-nothing socialist libs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Carbon Dreams
03-26-2010, 08:39 PM
I didn't address any issue, other than your ignorant comment towards this country. I fail to see what I "have all figured out" by my post. I only addressed your comment, not the issue of the thread. I certainly wasn't speaking of all Americans being ignorant, that couldn't be further from the truth. If your 'communist country' comment wasn't throwing a stone, I don't know what is. I won't touch the issue that Americans are currently having, because I really don't know enough, nor do I care enough, to make it a priority. I do know that both countries have a lot of room for improvement, and dishing out insults on this forum certainly won't do anything to help make the issues go away...

Maybe communist was a bit strong...I'm a big boy so accept my apology. That was the redneck in me coming out. By ignorant are you referring to a single use of a word, education, age, political view, or something that ignorant people just can't understand due to ignorance?

That said, I still grow tired of the common description of Americans as ignorant when used by many of the Canadian's I talk or converse with in person and other forums to include Canadian forums. If we, as a whole are ignorant, which we may be in some cases, then surely there is an obvious fix that we are blind to. I would love to hear the superior view give a suitable solution that will end all of America's problems. Something other than be more like us. "The Superior View" perfect name for a TV show Dontcha think?

Most Americans recognize our Country, Government (Local, State and Federal), and Citizens are broken. I think it is becoming abundantly clear to most that the root of the problem starts with the attitudes of the citizens which in turn affects all forms of government. The end result is an out of control Federal Government. I wish I had a solution, then I could retire. Starting at the grass roots level is likely the only way to start a reversal or at least a way to install the transom plug.

TX.X-30 fan
03-26-2010, 08:43 PM
Hey CP have some things not gone as you expected since the election??? As far as the gun grab that was in many speaches and was widely known....................... I can say the no gun thing will not go over very well where I live.

TX.X-30 fan
03-26-2010, 08:45 PM
Maybe communist was a bit strong...I'm a big boy so accept my apology. That was the redneck in me coming out. By ignorant are you referring to a single use of a word, education, age, political view, or something that ignorant people just can't understand due to ignorance?

That said, I still grow tired of the common description of Americans as ignorant when used by many of the Canadian's I talk or converse with in person and other forums to include Canadian forums. If we, as a whole are ignorant, which we may be in some cases, then surely there is an obvious fix that we are blind to. I would love to hear the superior view give a suitable solution that will end all of America's problems. Something other than be more like us. "The Superior View" perfect name for a TV show Dontcha think?

Most Americans recognize our Country, Government (Local, State and Federal), and Citizens are broken. I think it is becoming abundantly clear to most that the root of the problem starts with the attitudes of the citizens which in turn affects all forms of government. The end result is an out of control Federal Government. I wish I had a solution, then I could retire. Starting at the grass roots level is likely the only way to start a reversal or at least a way to install the transom plug.




Great bunch of posts ...................................... I love the location!!!!!! :D

scott023
03-26-2010, 08:55 PM
Maybe communist was a bit strong...I'm a big boy so accept my apology. That was the redneck in me coming out. By ignorant are you referring to a single use of a word, education, age, political view, or something that ignorant people just can't understand due to ignorance?
That said, I still grow tired of the common description of Americans as ignorant when used by many of the Canadian's I talk or converse with in person and other forums to include Canadian forums. If we, as a whole are ignorant, which we may be in some cases, then surely there is an obvious fix that we are blind to. I would love to hear the superior view give a suitable solution that will end all of America's problems. Something other than be more like us. "The Superior View" perfect name for a TV show Dontcha think?

Most Americans recognize our Country, Government (Local, State and Federal), and Citizens are broken. I think it is becoming abundantly clear to most that the root of the problem starts with the attitudes of the citizens which in turn affects all forms of government. The end result is an out of control Federal Government. I wish I had a solution, then I could retire. Starting at the grass roots level is likely the only way to start a reversal or at least a way to install the transom plug.

"Ignorance is where someone or something is uninformed. This should not be confused with being unintelligent, as one's level of intelligence and level of education or general awareness are not the same. The word "Ignorant" is an adjective describing a person in the state of being unaware."

I don't for a second mean to call you as a person ignorant, as I obviously don't know you. If it came across that way, I apologize.

scott023
03-26-2010, 08:56 PM
Great bunch of posts ...................................... I love the location!!!!!! :D

Washington? ;):D

TX.X-30 fan
03-26-2010, 09:02 PM
Washington? ;):D




Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! South of Canada/ :D



Nice post on the meanings of ignorant I for one learned from a canadian today!!!!!


Hey Hey............................ not a french one either!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

scott023
03-26-2010, 09:03 PM
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! South of Canada/ :D



Nice post on the meanings of ignorant I for one learned from a canadian today!!!!!


Hey Hey............................ not a french one either!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

HI5: :D :D

JimN
03-26-2010, 09:53 PM
This health care mess really had me split. Something had to be done to change what is obviously broken. This just came to my attention.....and it makes me sick, I mean literally sick to my stomach. I would only hope that people will flat out reject this, law or not. I'll put it to you this way, the only way they will get one of these in me.....is after I'm dead. :mad:

http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/usnews/politics/3193-national-healthcare-will-require-national-rfid-chips

I saw this in the movie zeitgeist and thought it would never happen in my lifetime. I guess I was wrong.

Require RFID chips? Bullshyte! There's no way they can require us to have those put in.

JimN
03-26-2010, 10:00 PM
Not my words, but...

"A legitimate democracy is one that is representative of the people. One where the people’s will is represented in government, not where the government’s will is enforced on the people. A democratic system should spell out the absolute rights of its citizens in a clear and understandable manner rather than the absolute rights of a sovereign to rule, whether symbolically or otherwise. Furthermore, these rights should not be allowed to be cast away by use of a notwithstanding clause. Indeed, limiting a person’s liberty should be very difficult for a government to change. Can it be claimed that the Canadian system is truly a democracy when the system allows one person, who is not even nationally elected, to wield supreme executive power with little restraint? Might it not be said that while the US model is much less efficient, it is a much more democratically representative by forcing a greater consensus among representatives?" http://www.unitednorthamerica.org/democracy.htm

Let me make my point clear. Regardless of our northern neighbors view of us ignorant Americans, we have and will always have the desire to be free. This means free from absolute control of the Federal Government. The US is a Republic! We will always fight for freedom and disagree with Socialism by definition as it relates to personal freedoms. Our forefather's laid out framework that, if followed, keeps the power of government limited and the power of the people strong. I make my political decisions based on the freedom that I would like to preserve for my children and their children. To do anything else is foolish. I absolutely do not know-it-all, yet strive to know all that I can. Studying world history and learning why societies failed all over the Globe seems to come down to one thing. Absolute power is the surest way to self-destruction. Is there one sure solution to fixing what is broken in this country, nope. Basically a complete overhaul is all that will work.

WE DO NOT HAVE A DEMOCRACY. Repeat this as needed. We have, or had, a Constitutional Republic. They're not the same. A pure democracy can degrade into a mobocracy, which is basically a lynch mob, when the situation arises. We are moving away from what we had and I seem to remember quite a few here who told me that I was being paranoid when I raised all kinds of warnings about what Obama and his gang would try to do. Unfortunately, I was more accurate than I would have liked.

Carbon Dreams
03-26-2010, 11:21 PM
WE DO NOT HAVE A DEMOCRACY. Repeat this as needed. We have, or had, a Constitutional Republic. They're not the same. A pure democracy can degrade into a mobocracy, which is basically a lynch mob, when the situation arises. We are moving away from what we had and I seem to remember quite a few here who told me that I was being paranoid when I raised all kinds of warnings about what Obama and his gang would try to do. Unfortunately, I was more accurate than I would have liked.

You are right on point. I believe there were many of us that either said publicly or muttered under our breath, the same thoughts. Our Republic has become ruled by lawyers driven by narcissist, power hungry sycophants. We may actually be at the end of the rope as we type these thoughts and remember days of old. Very sad if I may say so...I'm at a loss for ways to reverse this ugly trend. Maybe some really smart person can offer up a solution soon. Otherwise, I fear our dream of freedom may become simply a pipe dream...

2RLAKE
03-26-2010, 11:42 PM
The dinner roll ....

Once upon a time I was invited to the White House for a private dinner with the President.

I am a respected businessman, with a factory that produces memory chips for computers and portable electronics.

There was some talk that my industry was being scrutinized by the administration, but I paid it no mind. I live in a FREE country. There's nothing that the government can do to me if I've broken no laws. My wealth was EARNED honestly, and an invitation to dinner with an American President is an honor.

I checked my coat, was greeted by the Chief of Staff, and joined the President in a yellow dining room.

We sat across from each other at a table draped in white linen. The Great Seal was embossed on the china. Uniformed staff served our dinner.

The meal was served, and I was startled when my waiter suddenly reached out, plucked a dinner roll off my plate and began nibbling it as he walked back to the kitchen..

"Sorry 'bout that," said the President. "Andrew is very hungry."

"I don't appreciate..." I began, but as I looked into the calm brown eyes across from me, I felt immediately guilty and petty. It was just a dinner roll. "Of course," I concluded, and reached for my glass.

Before I could, however, another waiter reached forward, took the glass away and swallowed the wine in a single gulp. "And his brother, Eric, is very thirsty," said the President.

I didn't say anything. The President is testing my compassion, I thought. I withheld my comments and decided to play along. I don't want to seem unkind..

My plate was whisked away before I had tasted a bite.

"Eric's children are also quite hungry."

With a lurch, I crashed to the floor. My chair had been pulled out from under me.

I stood, brushing myself off angrily, and watched as it was carried from the room.

And their grandmother can't stand for long."

I excused myself, smiling outwardly, but inside feeling like a fool. Obviously I had been invited to the White House to be sport for some game. I reached for my coat, to find that it had been taken.

I turned back to the President.

"Their grandfather doesn't like the cold."

I wanted to shout, "that was my coat!" But again, I looked at the placid smiling face of my host and decided I was being a poor sport. I spread my hands helplessly and chuckled.

Then I felt my hip pocket and realized my wallet was gone. I excused myself and walked to a phone on an elegant side table.

I learned shortly that my credit cards had been maxed out, my bank accounts emptied, my retirement and equity portfolios had vanished, and my wife had been thrown out of our home.

Apparently, the waiters and their families were moving in. The President hadn't moved or spoken as I learned all this, but finally I lowered the phone into its cradle and turned to face him.

"Andrew's whole family has made bad financial decisions. They haven't planned for retirement and they need a house. They recently defaulted on a subprime mortgage. I told them they could have your home. They need it more than you do."

My hands were shaking. I felt faint I stumbled back to the table and knelt on the floor.

The President cheerfully cut his meat, ate his steak, and drank his wine. I lowered my eyes and stared at the small grey circles on the tablecloth that were water drops.

"By the way," he added, "I have just signed an Executive Order nationalizing your factories.

I'm firing you as head of your business. I'll be operating the firm now for the benefit of all mankind.

There's a whole bunch of Erics and Andrews out there and they can't come to you for jobs groveling like beggars...we need to spread YOUR wealth around..."

I looked up. The President dropped his spoon into the empty ramekin which had been his Brule.

He drained the last drops of his wine. As the table was cleared, he lit a cigarette and leaned back in his chair.

He stared at me. I clung to the edge of the table as if it were a ledge and I were a man hanging over an abyss.

I thought of the years behind me, of the life I had lived. The life I had earned with a lifetime of work, risk and struggle.

Why was I punished? How had I allowed it to be taken? What game had I played and lost? I looked across the table and noticed with some surprise that there was no game board between us.

What had I done wrong?

As if answering the unspoken thought, President Obama suddenly cocked his head, locked his empty eyes to mine, and bared a million teeth, chuckling wryly as he folded his hands.

"You should have stopped me at the dinner roll," he said.

WAKE UP AMERICA!!!

TX.X-30 fan
03-27-2010, 01:50 PM
Very good 2RLake!!! It is what is happening, when we have the speaker of the house spending 100,000 thousand on food and booze for plane flights for family we are no longer in control of our country!!! The sad part is that in this economy no one gives a sh!t!!!


Revolt!!!!!!!!!!!

Jorski
03-27-2010, 06:29 PM
Just for giggles, compare the number of MRI machines per capita between the two countries. That number might tell you why, the Canadians with the money, again talked to the Canadian people myself, get on planes and fly in the United States, and get MRI screenings the same or next day.

Good idea, and as you suspect, the US has more MRI machines/capita than does Canada. Now that you have done that why don't you compare the number of hospital beds/capita ?

You won't like the answer.

By the way, each answer in and of itself, is relatively meaningless.

For TX.X-30:
You think that we are taxed to death. That's not the case. We have slightly higher personal taxes and we have significantly lower corporate taxes than the US.

There is only one tax payer, so when you put those taxes together and look at the entire picture, the total tax take is very similar.

The thing that pushes the lower effective personal tax rates in the US versus Canada is the ability to deduct interest on your mortgage in the US..not allowed in Canada. That particular policy contributed greatly to housing bubble in the US, so you can have that one.;)

JimN
03-27-2010, 08:42 PM
Good idea, and as you suspect, the US has more MRI machines/capita than does Canada. Now that you have done that why don't you compare the number of hospital beds/capita ?

You won't like the answer.

By the way, each answer in and of itself, is relatively meaningless.

For TX.X-30:
You think that we are taxed to death. That's not the case. We have slightly higher personal taxes and we have significantly lower corporate taxes than the US.

There is only one tax payer, so when you put those taxes together and look at the entire picture, the total tax take is very similar.

The thing that pushes the lower effective personal tax rates in the US versus Canada is the ability to deduct interest on your mortgage in the US..not allowed in Canada. That particular policy contributed greatly to housing bubble in the US, so you can have that one.;)

Deducting mortgage interest isn't how the mortgage bubble got to the bursting point. Some in the government decided that they would do everything in their power to make sure low income people could own a home, regardless of whether they were financially solvent and/or responsible, or not. The only reason some of those people got a loan is because they could fog a spoon- the requirements needed to get approval disappeared and we all know what happened. The banks were forced to write the loans by FNMA/FMAC, with the blessing of Chris Dodd, Barnie Frank and with the "If you don't loan money to these people, it's because you're racist" push from Franklin Raines, it got ugly.

Re: MRI machines- we have more than we need, in some areas. This causes our medical expenses to be far higher than in other parts of the country but since the regional heavy-hitter in the health care industry puts them in every facility, we have no choice.

Jorski
03-28-2010, 11:00 AM
Deducting mortgage interest isn't how the mortgage bubble got to the bursting point.

I didn't say that it was THE reason for housing bubble, but it certainly was a contributing factor.

This policy, makes higher housing prices work in the "approval formulas" for financing. It effectively allows for very high amounts of principle that the borrower could pay the interest on, but makes it no easier to repay the principle.

In the end, this policy allows the homr buyer to borrow more than they otherwise could or would.

piper_chuck
03-28-2010, 11:28 AM
I didn't say that it was THE reason for housing bubble, but it certainly was a contributing factor.

This policy, makes higher housing prices work in the "approval formulas" for financing. It effectively allows for very high amounts of principle that the borrower could pay the interest on, but makes it no easier to repay the principle.

In the end, this policy allows the homr buyer to borrow more than they otherwise could or would.
Mortgage interest has been deductible for decades. We've had many a housing bubble in those decades. This contributed little, if anything, toward any of the bubbles.

JimN
03-28-2010, 12:37 PM
I didn't say that it was THE reason for housing bubble, but it certainly was a contributing factor.

This policy, makes higher housing prices work in the "approval formulas" for financing. It effectively allows for very high amounts of principle that the borrower could pay the interest on, but makes it no easier to repay the principle.

In the end, this policy allows the home buyer to borrow more than they otherwise could or would.

Sure, it was a factor and not the only one but I still think lax lending qualifications did the most damage because it reinforced the entitlement attitude in those people. Government makes it possible for people to buy a house when they normally wouldn't have a chance in he!! of being approved, all because those in government want to be seen as "doing it for the people". It's great when people can buy a home and stop renting but if someone can't afford one and their future isn't particularly bright when it comes to their earning power increasing, they can't be seen as deserving of a loan. Property taxes, utility costs, food prices, gasoline prices and the rest of daily expenses won't be dropping and if someone can't hold a job or can only get one that pays low wages, they have to be realistic about whether they should rent or buy. I seriously doubt the lenders explained this to most of those who defaulted, although I know there have been some defaults by people in the upper middle income ranges because they kept climbing up the property and refi ladder. They were mortgaged to the hilt and suddenly, their home's value dropped and they found themselves upside-down, so they walked away. Florida is a good example- many homes were abandoned without a word to the banks. Doors left unlocked, people went in and took anything that wasn't nailed down and most of what was.

Some things to consider:

All because people in government said "We want more people to own their home" without considering the ability to repay the debt.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2008/06/The-Dodd-Shelby-Housing-Bill-A-Bad-FHA-Refinance-Plan-Hijacks-Good-GSE-Reforms

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/barone/2008/10/06/democrats-were-wrong-on-fannie-mae-and-freddie-mac.html

http://www.directorblue.blogspot.com/2008/09/testimony-that-will-have-you-pulling.html

TX.X-30 fan
03-28-2010, 02:58 PM
Good idea, and as you suspect, the US has more MRI machines/capita than does Canada. Now that you have done that why don't you compare the number of hospital beds/capita ?

You won't like the answer.

By the way, each answer in and of itself, is relatively meaningless.

For TX.X-30:
You think that we are taxed to death. That's not the case. We have slightly higher personal taxes and we have significantly lower corporate taxes than the US.

There is only one tax payer, so when you put those taxes together and look at the entire picture, the total tax take is very similar.

The thing that pushes the lower effective personal tax rates in the US versus Canada is the ability to deduct interest on your mortgage in the US..not allowed in Canada. That particular policy contributed greatly to housing bubble in the US, so you can have that one.;)



I feel better now, I always thought you were nuts and now that ridiculous statement solidifies my initial thoughts.

Jorski
03-28-2010, 05:35 PM
When you combine mortgage interest deductability with lax credit standards you get the worst of all outcomes.

It skews all affordability metrics dramatically. Further, it only pushes prices higher than they would be without it. People, at least rational ones, tend to purchase based on a payment that they feel that they can make. Obviously the net impact to the individual is determined on an after tax basis.

The deductability of interest serves to make higher payments affordable, which obviously increases the price one is willing/able to pay. The problem is that when you push up the amount of borrowable principle, clearly the likelihood of repayment goes down.

Do the math on serviceable debt to income ratios with and without deductibility and you will see that it allows the geatest increase in loan size for those that can afford it the least. Now, make credit easily available (like your politicians did down there, AND require nothing down) and KABOOM.

Let me guess, TX.X30...you like mortgage interest deductability so it must be good, right?

TX.X-30 fan
03-28-2010, 05:51 PM
The tax deduction for interest had nothing to do with the problem.


The different inventions in the lending industry to conceal risk had all to do with the situation.


Just quit wasting all your typing and pasting abilities Jorski and just say we suck and canada is heaven on earth.



Have you ever looked at housing prices in Canada........................ extremely ridiculous comes to mind right off the bat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Socialism/Marxism/communism comes to mind.

TX.X-30 fan
03-28-2010, 05:53 PM
That is just dumb saying people qualify for more home because of deductibility the amount of more home would be minuscule. I have made 100's of home loans senior, i was before sub-prime I know what happened was going to happen.

SmithMountainLakeVA
03-28-2010, 06:12 PM
Yes, we miss you.
Limit terms for everyone - lets get the statesmen and gentleman back in office - that know when they are finished - they have to come home and live by the laws they set.

JimN
03-28-2010, 06:25 PM
When you combine mortgage interest deductability with lax credit standards you get the worst of all outcomes.

It skews all affordability metrics dramatically. Further, it only pushes prices higher than they would be without it. People, at least rational ones, tend to purchase based on a payment that they feel that they can make. Obviously the net impact to the individual is determined on an after tax basis.

The deductability of interest serves to make higher payments affordable, which obviously increases the price one is willing/able to pay. The problem is that when you push up the amount of borrowable principle, clearly the likelihood of repayment goes down.

Do the math on serviceable debt to income ratios with and without deductibility and you will see that it allows the greatest increase in loan size for those that can afford it the least. Now, make credit easily available (like your politicians did down there, AND require nothing down) and KABOOM.

Let me guess, TX.X30...you like mortgage interest deductability so it must be good, right?

A better way to make sure the problem wouldn't happen is by requiring a decent down payment. When I bought in '96, 10% was the minimum general requirement and many paid 20% to eliminate the need to pay Personal Mortgage Insurance, which is required until 20% equity is reached. With a house in a good area and decent appreciation, starting at 15% could mean paying PMI for one or two years but when someone starts with 1-2% down, it will take a long time before they really have anything at stake, other than the credit rating they never bothered with up to that point. To them, losing a house just means they have to move sooner than planned, not that they're losing their dream. Deducting mortgage interest is a good thing for anyone who isn't in an upper middle income bracket. For anyone above that point, it's just not that important. If someone makes $40K and buys a $95K house with nothing down, they'll still struggle to make a $900 payment in an area where the property tax is high (less in low-tax states). That $900 payment is far more than the old standard of not exceeding 25% of gross income on housing too, and at that point, there's not much left at the end of the month when cable/satellite TV, cell phones, groceries, gasoline and other expenses are tallied. Knocking a few thousand off of the gross income at tax time is hardly why this happened. The real reason is that too many people saw it as a realistic proposition when it clearly wouldn't look that way if they were honest with themselves.

The days of "I can't afford this" were long gone by the time this became a real problem and that's a phrase people need to learn.

JimN
03-28-2010, 06:26 PM
Yes, we miss you.
Limit terms for everyone - lets get the statesmen and gentleman back in office - that know when they are finished - they have to come home and live by the laws they set.

I agree but unfortunately, statesmen and gentlemen don't want the job.

bbymgr
03-28-2010, 06:30 PM
When you combine mortgage interest deductability with lax credit standards you get the worst of all outcomes.

It skews all affordability metrics dramatically. Further, it only pushes prices higher than they would be without it. People, at least rational ones, tend to purchase based on a payment that they feel that they can make. Obviously the net impact to the individual is determined on an after tax basis.

The deductability of interest serves to make higher payments affordable, which obviously increases the price one is willing/able to pay. The problem is that when you push up the amount of borrowable principle, clearly the likelihood of repayment goes down.

Do the math on serviceable debt to income ratios with and without deductibility and you will see that it allows the geatest increase in loan size for those that can afford it the least. Now, make credit easily available (like your politicians did down there, AND require nothing down) and KABOOM.

Let me guess, TX.X30...you like mortgage interest deductability so it must be good, right?

Wait.........my kids are deductible...........therefore the metrics are skewed, and I can't afford them. Better get rid of them.:rolleyes:

piper_chuck
03-28-2010, 07:43 PM
When you combine mortgage interest deductability with lax credit standards you get the worst of all outcomes.

Lax credit standards were the problem, not the mortgage interest deduction.


It skews all affordability metrics dramatically. Further, it only pushes prices higher than they would be without it. People, at least rational ones, tend to purchase based on a payment that they feel that they can make. Obviously the net impact to the individual is determined on an after tax basis.

You might think it's "obvious", but that's not the case. Lenders do not use the mortgage interest deduction when qualifying a borrower, and many (most?) borrowers aren't savvy enough to figure out the mortgage interest deduction.


The deductability of interest serves to make higher payments affordable, which obviously increases the price one is willing/able to pay. The problem is that when you push up the amount of borrowable principle, clearly the likelihood of repayment goes down.

It certainly does increase the amount of cash a person has, however, if the banks hadn't increased the percentages they allowed for interest and severely reduced due diligence in qualifying, we wouldn't have had this mess. People were buying bigger houses than they needed and could afford, and the banks supported it.


Do the math on serviceable debt to income ratios with and without deductibility and you will see that it allows the geatest increase in loan size for those that can afford it the least. Now, make credit easily available (like your politicians did down there, AND require nothing down) and KABOOM.

Lax credit was the reason, not the deduction.


Let me guess, TX.X30...you like mortgage interest deductability so it must be good, right?
Why are you so worked up about being able to deduct mortgage interest anyway? Jealous?

piper_chuck
03-28-2010, 07:44 PM
Wait.........my kids are deductible...........therefore the metrics are skewed, and I can't afford them. Better get rid of them.:rolleyes:
The kid deduction must have been the cause of the baby boom! :D

piper_chuck
03-28-2010, 07:58 PM
Mortgage interest has been deductible for decades. We've had many a housing bubble in those decades. This contributed little, if anything, toward any of the bubbles.
Looks like I understated how long it's been available. Rather than decades, I should have said over a century. Leading up to the crisis, the mortgage interest deduction wasn't new, but lower lending standards certainly were.

TX.X-30 fan
03-28-2010, 08:45 PM
Yes, we miss you.
Limit terms for everyone - lets get the statesmen and gentleman back in office - that know when they are finished - they have to come home and live by the laws they set.




Best post of the thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Like Dick Army did.


And yes he called Barney Frank a spade. :D

TX.X-30 fan
03-28-2010, 08:46 PM
Looks like I understated how long it's been available. Rather than decades, I should have said over a century. Leading up to the crisis, the mortgage interest deduction wasn't new, but lower lending standards certainly were.



Simple explanation and correct. :D

captain planet
03-29-2010, 11:13 AM
Hey CP have some things not gone as you expected since the election??? As far as the gun grab that was in many speaches and was widely known....................... I can say the no gun thing will not go over very well where I live.

TX, it is going about as I had expected. The large bailouts that started prior to the election and the ones that continued are about the SOP for the guys in "the big club" to help one another out when they create a mess.

The gun grab won't go well here either. 2 of my 3 congressmen are pro-gun and have heard from me quite a little bit over the last year on this one.

Require RFID chips? Bullshyte! There's no way they can require us to have those put in.

Read the bill. It is in there! They will NEVER get on in me or my family..period!

If I had known that was in there, I would have climbed to the mountain top with a bullhorn. I guess they caught me sleeping on this one. :o

JimN
03-29-2010, 11:42 AM
Read the bill. It is in there! They will NEVER get on in me or my family..period!

If I had known that was in there, I would have climbed to the mountain top with a bullhorn. I guess they caught me sleeping on this one. :o

Don't feel bad about not knowing about the RFID, nobody in Congress read the bill, either. Why does this bill have anything to do with college loans?

That won't fly. If they try to make it mandatory, every citizen's rights group will charge into DC and stampede the Capitol. If they want to make our medical records portable, they should hand out a thumb drive or a card that can be swiped. RFID can be scanned and the info grabbed remotely and that makes it too easy to steal it. Someone could walk through a crowd and grab the records for thousands of people and ID theft is enough of a problem.

captain planet
03-29-2010, 11:51 AM
Don't feel bad about not knowing about the RFID, nobody in Congress read the bill, either. Why does this bill have anything to do with college loans?

That won't fly. If they try to make it mandatory, every citizen's rights group will charge into DC and stampede the Capitol. If they want to make our medical records portable, they should hand out a thumb drive or a card that can be swiped. RFID can be scanned and the info grabbed remotely and that makes it too easy to steal it. Someone could walk through a crowd and grab the records for thousands of people and ID theft is enough of a problem.

Uh, this is where you may think I'm crazy:o, but the point of the RFID is not for medical records...at least that will be the initial sell to the people. It is to be able to track people so that a record of everywhere you go is monitored.

One nation under surveillance! :mad:

JimN
03-29-2010, 12:11 PM
Uh, this is where you may think I'm crazy:o, but the point of the RFID is not for medical records...at least that will be the initial sell to the people. It is to be able to track people so that a record of everywhere you go is monitored.

One nation under surveillance! :mad:

I know and that's why I don't think it will fly. The ACLU alone could tie this up in court for a decade. The only time I would consider RFID in humans is certain kinds of criminals and they would have no problem with the concept of using a butter knife to dig it out.

bcampbe7
03-29-2010, 01:48 PM
Read the bill. It is in there! They will NEVER get on in me or my family..period!

If I had known that was in there, I would have climbed to the mountain top with a bullhorn. I guess they caught me sleeping on this one. :o


I searched the bill and didn't find RFID. Can you point out where you found that in the bill?

http://democrats.senate.gov/reform/patient-protection-affordable-care-act.pdf

captain planet
03-29-2010, 02:00 PM
I searched the bill and didn't find RFID. Can you point out where you found that in the bill?

http://democrats.senate.gov/reform/patient-protection-affordable-care-act.pdf

post #150.............

bcampbe7
03-29-2010, 02:03 PM
post #150.............

I skimmed that article, but didn't see where RFID was quoted from the healthcare bill. Still don't...

captain planet
03-29-2010, 02:53 PM
I skimmed that article, but didn't see where RFID was quoted from the healthcare bill. Still don't...

http://www.dailypaul.com/node/105079

Buried deep within the over 1,000 pages of the massive US Health Care Bill (PDF) in a “non-discussed” section titled: Subtitle C-11 Sec. 2521— National Medical Device Registry, and which states its purpose as:

“The Secretary shall establish a national medical device registry (in this subsection referred to as the ‘registry’) to facilitate analysis of postmarket safety and outcomes data on each device that—‘‘(A) is or has been used in or on a patient; and ‘‘(B) is a class III device; or ‘‘(ii) a class II device that is implantable.”

In “real world speak”, according to this report, this new law, when fully implemented, provides the framework for making the United States the first Nation in the World to require each and every one of its citizens to have implanted in them a radio-frequency identification (RFID) microchip for the purpose of controlling who is, or isn’t, allowed medical care in their country.

I pulled up your link and tried to look for this reference, but after staring at pages and pages for the last 30 minutes, my eyes hurt.

bcampbe7
03-29-2010, 03:29 PM
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/105079

Buried deep within the over 1,000 pages of the massive US Health Care Bill (PDF) in a “non-discussed” section titled: Subtitle C-11 Sec. 2521— National Medical Device Registry, and which states its purpose as:

“The Secretary shall establish a national medical device registry (in this subsection referred to as the ‘registry’) to facilitate analysis of postmarket safety and outcomes data on each device that—‘‘(A) is or has been used in or on a patient; and ‘‘(B) is a class III device; or ‘‘(ii) a class II device that is implantable.”

In “real world speak”, according to this report, this new law, when fully implemented, provides the framework for making the United States the first Nation in the World to require each and every one of its citizens to have implanted in them a radio-frequency identification (RFID) microchip for the purpose of controlling who is, or isn’t, allowed medical care in their country.

I pulled up your link and tried to look for this reference, but after staring at pages and pages for the last 30 minutes, my eyes hurt.


I don't think it is there...

TX.X-30 fan
03-29-2010, 06:24 PM
The bill references statues all over the place you need a team of 1000 people reading and cross referencing to even get close.

Monte
03-29-2010, 11:20 PM
The bill references statues all over the place you need a team of 1000 people reading and cross referencing to even get close.

I agree 100%. This "Secretary" feller has WAY too much power. Have you noticed? Read the bill. One guy? Really??

BTW to everyone I would like to sincerely apologize for my previous display of colorful words; However, I do NOT apologize for my beliefs and opinions.

Jorski
03-29-2010, 11:36 PM
“The Secretary shall establish a national medical device registry (in this subsection referred to as the ‘registry’) to facilitate analysis of postmarket safety and outcomes data on each device that—‘‘(A) is or has been used in or on a patient; and ‘‘(B) is a class III device; or ‘‘(ii) a class II device that is implantable.”

In “real world speak”, according to this report, this new law, when fully implemented, provides the framework for making the United States the first Nation in the World to require each and every one of its citizens to have implanted in them a radio-frequency identification (RFID) microchip for the purpose of controlling who is, or isn’t, allowed medical care in their country.

NOPE...they are talking about implantable medical devices. You know tracking the effectiveness of pacemakers, artificial knees etc. Seems like a good idea.


From Wikipedia:


Class II: General Controls with Special Controls

Class II devices are those for which general controls alone are insufficient to assure safety and effectiveness, and additional existing methods are available to provide such assurances. Therefore, Class II devices are also subject to special controls in addition to the general controls of Class I devices. Special controls may include special labeling requirements, mandatory performance standards, and postmarket surveillance.[2] Devices in Class II are held to a higher level of assurance than Class I devices that they will perform as indicated and will not cause injury or harm to patient or user. Devices in this class are typically non-invasive and include x-ray machines, PACS, powered wheelchairs, infusion pumps, surgical drapes, surgical needles and suture material,acupuncture needles.



Class III: General Controls and Premarket Approval

A Class III device is one for which insufficient information exists to assure safety and effectiveness solely through the general or special controls sufficient for Class I or Class II devices. Such a device needs premarket approval, a scientific review to ensure the device's safety and effectiveness, in addition to the general controls of Class I. Class III devices are described as those for which "insufficient information exists to determine that general controls are sufficient to provide reasonable assurance of its safety and effectiveness or that application of special controls ... would provide such assurance and if, in addition, the device is life-supporting or life-sustaining, or for a use which is of substantial importance in preventing impairment of human health, or if the device presents a potential unreasonable risk of illness or injury."[3]

Examples of Class III devices which require a premarket approval include replacement heart valves, silicone gel-filled breast implants, implanted cerebral stimulators, implantable pacemaker pulse generators and endosseous (intra-bone) implants (with the exception of root-form endosseous dental implants which were recently reclassified as Class II).

Maristar210
03-29-2010, 11:39 PM
Jorski, You don't expect anyone to read all of that **** do you??

Monte
03-29-2010, 11:44 PM
Jorski?
You honestly would not mind if the goverment placed a micro chip/ radio in you?
Lord have mercy on you.

PLEASE NOTE: There is a huge bill that changes every definition we have ever known.

scott023
03-29-2010, 11:58 PM
Jorski, You don't expect anyone to read all of that **** do you??

Nevermind him, I think he's trying to make all Canadians look like know it alls. :rolleyes:

Monte
03-29-2010, 11:59 PM
I am glad you agree............................. Although I am surely not canadian..

scott023
03-30-2010, 01:04 AM
I am glad you agree............................. Although I am surely not canadian..

Unlucky for you... :D

Monte
03-30-2010, 10:20 AM
Unlucky for you... :D

I did visit once:rolleyes: Very nice waterfall you have there;)

Jorski
03-30-2010, 12:46 PM
No, I would be appalled at the idea of the government installing a microchip in me or my family.

The site that got CP all riled up, knows that anyone would be upset about that. Just turns out that there is no such thing in the bill.

It is fine to be for or against the health care bill; we all have opinions and that's great. The thing that drives me batty, and if you notice, the only things that I care about are when there are gross misrepresentations made.

That's the case whether it's untrue posts about the state of canadian health care or this wildly incorrect assertion about RFID devices.

Carbon Dreams
03-30-2010, 05:14 PM
Basically after reading through the Data tracking section this is my conclusion. The wording is basic legalese and leaves typical wiggle room. It does address RFID by referencing the FDA document defining such devices. The interesting thing is that it shall be mandated no later than 36 calendar months after becoming law. The health secretary has ultimate power in implementation of said plan. Some have said that the RFID info may take place as soon as within 2 yrs. Needless to say, no need to search Snopes.com...it is in the language of the House bill and the FDA Class II Special Controls Guidance Document: Implantable Radiofrequency Transponder System for Patient Identification and Health Information.

Read it for yourself and educate those you know.

The following are not my words, but...

"Establishment of a National Health ID/Debit card with Smart chip/RFID technology, linked to Bank accounts for the purpose of ID verification as well as patient info, along with instant debit from Bank account to pay for co-pays, etc. The wording leaves open the option to use this concurrently with RFID chip implant.

Here is H.R 4872: http://docs.house.gov/rules/hr4872/111_hr4872_reported.pdf

The RFID section is located on page 1013. In Table of Contents it is Subdivision C, Title V, Subtitle C- National medical device registry.

You’re looking for Class II implantable device. That’s a RFID chip. Here is FDA info on Class II:

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Medical.../ucm072191.pdf

The National Health ID/Debit section is on page 57. In Table of Contents it is Subdivision A. Title I, Subtitle G- Early Investments. Further it is Sec 163, Administrative Simplification."

Carbon Dreams
03-30-2010, 05:17 PM
If you read the FDA document. Then the definition of the medical devices does not limit scope to pacemakers, etc... The house bill gives teeth to the RFID implementation. Once signed into law, the path is pretty clear.

Aren't you glad you live in Canada?

NOPE...they are talking about implantable medical devices. You know tracking the effectiveness of pacemakers, artificial knees etc. Seems like a good idea.


From Wikipedia:


Class II: General Controls with Special Controls

Class II devices are those for which general controls alone are insufficient to assure safety and effectiveness, and additional existing methods are available to provide such assurances. Therefore, Class II devices are also subject to special controls in addition to the general controls of Class I devices. Special controls may include special labeling requirements, mandatory performance standards, and postmarket surveillance.[2] Devices in Class II are held to a higher level of assurance than Class I devices that they will perform as indicated and will not cause injury or harm to patient or user. Devices in this class are typically non-invasive and include x-ray machines, PACS, powered wheelchairs, infusion pumps, surgical drapes, surgical needles and suture material,acupuncture needles.



Class III: General Controls and Premarket Approval

A Class III device is one for which insufficient information exists to assure safety and effectiveness solely through the general or special controls sufficient for Class I or Class II devices. Such a device needs premarket approval, a scientific review to ensure the device's safety and effectiveness, in addition to the general controls of Class I. Class III devices are described as those for which "insufficient information exists to determine that general controls are sufficient to provide reasonable assurance of its safety and effectiveness or that application of special controls ... would provide such assurance and if, in addition, the device is life-supporting or life-sustaining, or for a use which is of substantial importance in preventing impairment of human health, or if the device presents a potential unreasonable risk of illness or injury."[3]

Examples of Class III devices which require a premarket approval include replacement heart valves, silicone gel-filled breast implants, implanted cerebral stimulators, implantable pacemaker pulse generators and endosseous (intra-bone) implants (with the exception of root-form endosseous dental implants which were recently reclassified as Class II).

Jorski
03-30-2010, 11:03 PM
"Establishment of a National Health ID/Debit card with Smart chip/RFID technology, linked to Bank accounts for the purpose of ID verification as well as patient info, along with instant debit from Bank account to pay for co-pays, etc.

The wording leaves open the option to use this concurrently with RFID chip implant.

Seems like one gigantic paranoid leap to me. It says absolutely NOTHING about implantable RFID chips...NOTHING.

One minute, Jimn is saying that you can't have wide ranging health care coverage because of the illegals, and it would be too hard to stop fraud. When they talk about a simple health card, designed to prevent fraud, you jump to the idea that there will be government mandated implants??????

Carbon, put on tin foil hat now...they have secret rays that they shoot into you to control your mind you know!

Monte
03-30-2010, 11:30 PM
Seems like one gigantic paranoid leap to me. It says absolutely NOTHING about implantable RFID chips...NOTHING.

One minute, Jimn is saying that you can't have wide ranging health care coverage because of the illegals, and it would be too hard to stop fraud. When they talk about a simple health card, designed to prevent fraud, you jump to the idea that there will be government mandated implants??????

Carbon, put on tin foil hat now...they have secret rays that they shoot into you to control your mind you know!

At BEST Jorski, the way I read it, we may only get a chip if we require a pacemaker or some other apparatus. At the worst, everybody gets one. It looks like the "Secretary" has all the say so and the "Register" needs to compile an awful lot of data. You have already said you would not be comfortable getting one IF you lived here. I do not trust these people.. at all. They are NOT looking out for our best interest.

Carbon Dreams
03-30-2010, 11:42 PM
Seems like one gigantic paranoid leap to me. It says absolutely NOTHING about implantable RFID chips...NOTHING.

One minute, Jimn is saying that you can't have wide ranging health care coverage because of the illegals, and it would be too hard to stop fraud. When they talk about a simple health card, designed to prevent fraud, you jump to the idea that there will be government mandated implants??????

Carbon, put on tin foil hat now...they have secret rays that they shoot into you to control your mind you know!

He he he...I already have my foil hat fitted and tuned in...
I'm simply reading the documents and using our gvmt's illustrious track record and propensity to keep the citizens in check, to make logical conclusions. No paranoia just concern as to where this road will take America. The US gvmnt seems to start with little controls or changes that dove tail into major policies, laws, etc... These guy's and gal's in DC are not out for the best interest of the citizens that elected them.

Listen, time will tell on the RFID stuff...No one is saying run to the hills now before you get arrested lest you comply. That is not how this stuff gets done. It may come down to that, just not now. I simply do not want the massive out of line control that the fed gvmnt is doing their best to get. Nothing wrong with people trying to be free and decide how and when to spend their hard earned money.

Jorski
03-31-2010, 12:29 AM
Here is H.R 4872: http://docs.house.gov/rules/hr4872/1...2_reported.pdf

The RFID section is located on page 1013. In Table of Contents it is Subdivision C, Title V, Subtitle C- National medical device registry.

Says nothing about your implantable RFID...it does talk about implantable devices (ie pacemakers) requiring unique identifiers so that efficacy and safety data can be tracked, and studied in a pooled data set. Further down, it talks about the need for patient privacy in this regard.




http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Medical.../ucm072191.pdf

The National Health ID/Debit section is on page 57. In Table of Contents it is Subdivision A. Title I, Subtitle G- Early Investments. Further it is Sec 163, Administrative Simplification."

Carbon...this document that you link is from 2004... don't think it's what you intended to link to.


Just for interest sake, I did and "edit search" for "RFID, "R.F.I.D.", "Radio Frequency Identification Device", and "Health Card" and "National Health ID", and each search turned up nothing. The search might have missed it, but it isn't in the section that you referred to (I read that) and it appears that those terms are not in the Bill.

Carbon Dreams
03-31-2010, 01:42 AM
Ill look for an updated document. I think that the 2004 document is the latest one. Basically it is referred to in the House bill. I could be wrong, and hope I am, but I don't see any clarity as to the end scope to implanted data acquisition. It looks like it is kind of like a blank check.

It doesn't matter if the RFID technology is in an implant or in a required card. The potential for abuse is there and will likely be a reality. Where is the oversight? Yet another Federal Government Agency? I just don't see any benefit to the citizen. The best way to know if the implanted pacemaker is not up to par is the frequent checkups with his doc.

Hey doc...my fake knee really hurts when I'm on the Slalom course...

I just don't think that the RFID technology is necessary nor should be included in any health care deal. I guess we all have our opinions.

Carbon Dreams
03-31-2010, 01:49 AM
Says nothing about your implantable RFID...it does talk about implantable devices (ie pacemakers) requiring unique identifiers so that efficacy and safety data can be tracked, and studied in a pooled data set. Further down, it talks about the need for patient privacy in this regard.






Carbon...this document that you link is from 2004... don't think it's what you intended to link to.


Just for interest sake, I did and "edit search" for "RFID, "R.F.I.D.", "Radio Frequency Identification Device", and "Health Card" and "National Health ID", and each search turned up nothing. The search might have missed it, but it isn't in the section that you referred to (I read that) and it appears that those terms are not in the Bill.


The National Health ID/Debit section is on page 57. In Table of Contents it is Subdivision A. Title I, Subtitle G- Early Investments. Further it is Sec 163, Administrative Simplification."

References the House Bill http://docs.house.gov/rules/hr4872/111_hr4872_reported.pdf
not the FDA doc.

TX.X-30 fan
03-31-2010, 09:05 PM
During the Olympics they cancelled all the elective surgeries???????????????


Great system, I guess ya'll needed the 4 MRI machines in Voncover for the hockey/luge accidents??



Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!

TX.X-30 fan
03-31-2010, 09:06 PM
Misery obliviously loves company.

trickskier
04-05-2010, 05:22 PM
Retribution is less than 1 year away!

Take a look at this and just remember elections in November 2010.

U..S. House & Senate have voted themselves $4,700 and $5,300 raises.

They voted to NOT give a S.S. cost of living raise in 2010 and 2011.

Medicare premiums will go up $285.60 for the 2-years

Seniors will not get the 3% COLA: $660/yr.

The total 2-yr loss and cost is -$1,600 or -$3,200 for husband and wife.

Over these same 2-years each member of Congress will get $10,000

Do you feel SCREWED?

Will they have the cost of drugs - doctor fees - local taxes - food, etc., decrease for seniors? - NO WAY.

Congress received a raise and has better health and retirement benefits than you or I.
Why should they care about you?

They figure you never did anything about it in the past.

They think you obviously are too stupid or don't care.

Do you really think that Nancy, Harry, Chris, Charlie, Barnie, et al, care about you? Send the message to these individuals, “YOU'RE FIRED!”

In 2010 you will have a chance to get rid of the sitting Congress: up to 1/3 of the Senate and 100% of the House! Make sure you're still mad in November 2010 and remind their replacements not to screw-up like their predecessors. It is ok to forward this to your sphere of influence if you are finally tired of the abuse. Maybe it's time for Amendment 28 to the Constitution..

28th Amendment will be as follows:
"Congress shall make no law that applies to the citizens of the United States that does not apply equally to the Senators or Representatives, and Congress shall make no law that applies to the Senators or Representatives that does not apply equally to the citizens of the United States ..."

Let's get this passed around, folks - these people in Washington have brought this upon themselves! It's time for retribution. Let's take back America ..

If you don't forward this to all your friends you're just part of the problem of the national apathy that has caused our current problems.

SkiDog
04-05-2010, 06:10 PM
This is well worth the time to read!
The Dinner Roll


Once upon a time I was invited to the White House for a private dinner with the President.

I am a respected businessman, with a factory that produces memory chips for computers and portable electronics.

There was some talk that my industry was being scrutinized by the administration, but I paid it no mind. I live in a FREE country. There's nothing that the government can do to me if I've broken no laws. My wealth was EARNED honestly, and an invitation to dinner with an American President is an honor.

I checked my coat, was greeted by the Chief of Staff, and joined the President in a yellow dining room.

We sat across from each other at a table draped in white linen. The Great Seal was embossed on the china. Uniformed staff served our dinner.

The meal was served, and I was startled when my waiter suddenly reached out, plucked a dinner roll off my plate and began nibbling it as he walked back to the kitchen..

"Sorry 'bout that," said the President. "Andrew is very hungry."

"I don't appreciate..." I began, but as I looked into the calm brown eyes across from me, I felt immediately guilty and petty. It was just a dinner roll. "Of course," I concluded, and reached for my glass.

Before I could, however, another waiter reached forward, took the glass away and swallowed the wine in a single gulp. "And his brother, Eric, is very thirsty," said the President.

I didn't say anything. The President is testing my compassion, I thought. I withheld my comments and decided to play along. I don't want to seem unkind..

My plate was whisked away before I had tasted a bite.

"Eric's children are also quite hungry."

With a lurch, I crashed to the floor. My chair had been pulled out from under me.

I stood, brushing myself off angrily, and watched as it was carried from the room.

And their grandmother can't stand for long."

I excused myself, smiling outwardly, but inside feeling like a fool. Obviously I had been invited to the White House to be sport for some game. I reached for my coat, to find that it had been taken.

I turned back to the President.

"Their grandfather doesn't like the cold."

I wanted to shout, "that was my coat!" But again, I looked at the placid smiling face of my host and decided I was being a poor sport. I spread my hands helplessly and chuckled.

Then I felt my hip pocket and realized my wallet was gone. I excused myself and walked to a phone on an elegant side table.

I learned shortly that my credit cards had been maxed out, my bank accounts emptied, my retirement and equity portfolios had vanished, and my wife had been thrown out of our home.

Apparently, the waiters and their families were moving in. The President hadn't moved or spoken as I learned all this, but finally I lowered the phone into its cradle and turned to face him.

"Andrew's whole family has made bad financial decisions. They haven't planned for retirement and they need a house. They recently defaulted on a subprime mortgage. I told them they could have your home. They need it more than you do."

My hands were shaking. I felt faint I stumbled back to the table and knelt on the floor.

The President cheerfully cut his meat, ate his steak, and drank his wine. I lowered my eyes and stared at the small grey circles on the tablecloth that were water drops.

"By the way," he added, "I have just signed an Executive Order nationalizing your factories.

I'm firing you as head of your business. I'll be operating the firm now for the benefit of all mankind.

There's a whole bunch of Erics and Andrews out there and they can't come to you for jobs groveling like beggars...we need to spread YOUR wealth around..."

I looked up. The President dropped his spoon into the empty ramekin which had been his crème Brule.

He drained the last drops of his wine. As the table was cleared, he lit a cigarette and leaned back in his chair.

He stared at me. I clung to the edge of the table as if it were a ledge and I were a man hanging over an abyss.

I thought of the years behind me, of the life I had lived. The life I had earned with a lifetime of work, risk and struggle.

Why was I punished? How had I allowed it to be taken? What game had I played and lost? I looked across the table and noticed with some surprise that there was no game board between us.

What had I done wrong?

As if answering the unspoken thought, President Obama suddenly cocked his head, locked his empty eyes to mine, and bared a million teeth, chuckling wryly as he folded his hands.

"You should have stopped me at the dinner roll," he said.

TX.X-30 fan
04-05-2010, 10:17 PM
The seniors on the dole now are bankrupting the system, not far away from the checks not being sent.......................... We are bankrupt so there will be no alternative but to cut off the free pills and health-care. Hell after a couple years it's all gone anyway.

TX.X-30 fan
04-05-2010, 10:18 PM
Why would we give seniors with millions in the bank free or next to free drugs!!! INSANE!!!

JimN
04-05-2010, 10:46 PM
The seniors on the dole now are bankrupting the system, not far away from the checks not being sent.......................... We are bankrupt so there will be no alternative but to cut off the free pills and health-care. Hell after a couple years it's all gone anyway.

If the government hadn't raided the SS fund to the tune of roughly $90 Trillion, this whole thing may not have happened. It boils down to the government giving the place away to people who could and should have been doing things for themselves, but since they have been instilled with the entitlement mentality, most of them or their descendants never will. Government needed to pay for all of these "poor and uneducated" people, so taxes go up. They create a feeding frenzy of government spending and we have arrived! Next stop, VAT, no industry and nobody will have any incentive to be creative, work hard or do great things.

Unless we do something about it.

SkiDog
04-05-2010, 11:00 PM
If the government hadn't raided the SS fund to the tune of roughly $90 Trillion, this whole thing may not have happened. It boils down to the government giving the place away to people who could and should have been doing things for themselves, but since they have been instilled with the entitlement mentality, most of them or their descendants never will. Government needed to pay for all of these "poor and uneducated" people, so taxes go up. They create a feeding frenzy of government spending and we have arrived! Next stop, VAT, no industry and nobody will have any incentive to be creative, work hard or do great things.

Unless we do something about it.

Well said Jim~!

captain planet
04-06-2010, 01:28 PM
If the government hadn't raided the SS fund to the tune of roughly $90 Trillion, this whole thing may not have happened. It boils down to the government giving the place away to people who could and should have been doing things for themselves, but since they have been instilled with the entitlement mentality, most of them or their descendants never will. Government needed to pay for all of these "poor and uneducated" people, so taxes go up. They create a feeding frenzy of government spending and we have arrived! Next stop, VAT, no industry and nobody will have any incentive to be creative, work hard or do great things.

Unless we do something about it.

Jim, thank you for pointing this out. A LOT of people don't understand what happened with this almost 30 years ago and the ramifications we are feeling from this now.

captain planet
04-06-2010, 01:31 PM
The attacks on our civil liberties appears to have no bounds. In the upcoming Immigration Reform bill, which EVERYONE will be in favor of, there is language that will basically make all of us have to carry a universal ID card conveniently equipped with an RFID chip on which will have all your personal information. This card will be necessary to get a job because employers will have to check your card prior to you being hired. :mad: It is REALLY time to get serious about these attacks on our privacy.

TX.X-30 fan
04-06-2010, 03:09 PM
The Hated former president said we actually need to save some of the SS money in a real acct.. It goes into the general fund to pay current liabilities just as it always has. There was never any of it saved.

JimN
04-06-2010, 03:55 PM
The Hated former president said we actually need to save some of the SS money in a real acct.. It goes into the general fund to pay current liabilities just as it always has. There was never any of it saved.

Sounds like the last one, who everyone though was really stoopid. Well, they clearly misunderestimated him.

The problem with a pure Democracy is that stupid, ignorant and pissed off people can elect weapons-grade A-holes, just because they can collect a simple majority. At least with a Republic, it requires debate and thought. With a Constitutional Republic, like what we used to have, guidelines actually exist so neither the government nor the people run amok.

This is why I said I have a huge problem with Obama having taught Constitutional Law- I'm absolutely convinced he has thought of every way around every single Article and Amendment, with guidance from his "handlers" in Chicago, who ran him through the system as fast as they could.

Congress mandating our insurance without being required to use the same and being able to get things for themselves were forbidden in the 28th Amendment, as posted previously. Why nobody is holding their feet to the fire is beyond me, aside from the fact that the media surely won't bring it up.

RexDog1
04-06-2010, 08:53 PM
If the government hadn't raided the SS fund to the tune of roughly $90 Trillion, this whole thing may not have happened. It boils down to the government giving the place away to people who could and should have been doing things for themselves, but since they have been instilled with the entitlement mentality, most of them or their descendants never will. Government needed to pay for all of these "poor and uneducated" people, so taxes go up. They create a feeding frenzy of government spending and we have arrived! Next stop, VAT, no industry and nobody will have any incentive to be creative, work hard or do great things.

Unless we do something about it.

Wow…… nice post Jim
I am amazed at our government ….well ?? no I am not…. he is doing what he said he was going to do…….

Can you say one term president…….???

Monte
04-06-2010, 09:08 PM
Wow…… nice post Jim
I am amazed at our government ….well ?? no I am not…. he is doing what he said he was going to do…….

Can you say one term president…….???

I truely hope so Jon, The one fear I have is the Ross Perot effect of 1992. If too many people lean toward the Tea party and/or the republican party. He may get elected again by default. I think he has enough blind and/or needy support to pull that off. I have yet to see somebody strong enough to rally behind. I know we are a ways off, but it could get real ugly.

JimN
04-06-2010, 10:04 PM
[FONT=Verdana]Can you say one term [COLOR=black]president…….???

Not if they tweeze the numbers and say unemployment has dropped below 8%. If that happens, he'll be a sure thing for a 2nd term.

Ever read anything about those who want to repeal the 22nd Amendment? It's not a new thing but if they pull it off now, we'll truly be on the path to bad times.

TX.X-30 fan
04-08-2010, 12:25 PM
I had asked in this thread or another one what the federal Govt. had ever run sucessfully and I was not surprised that not even Jorski could come up with anything.





Wal-Mart vs. Morons:

1) Americans spend $36,000,000 at Wal-Mart Every hour of every day.
2) This works out to $20,928 profit every minute!
3) Wal-Mart will sell more from January 1 to St. Patrick's Day (March 17th) than Target sells all year.
4) Wal-Mart is bigger than Home Depot + Kroger + Target + Sears + Costco + K-Mart combined.
5) Wal-Mart employs 1.6 million people and is the largest private Employer, and most speak English.
6) Wal-Mart is the largest company in the history of the world.
7) Wal-Mart now sells more food than Kroger & Safeway combined, and keep in mind they did this in only 15 years.
8) During this same period, 31 supermarket chains sought bankruptcy.
9) Wal-Mart now sells more food than any other store in the world.
10) Wal-Mart has approx 3,900 stores in the USA of which 1,906 are Super Centers; this is
1,000 more than it had 5 Years ago.
11) This year 7.2 billion different purchasing experiences will occur at a Wal-Mart store.
12) 90% of all Americans live within 15 miles of a Wal-Mart.

You may think that I am complaining, but I am really laying the ground work for suggesting that MAYBE we should hire the guys who run Wal-Mart to Fix the economy.

This should be read and understood by all Americans - Democrats, Republicans, EVERYONE!!

To President Obama and all 535 voting members of the Legislature - It is now official you are ALL corrupt morons:
a) The U.S. Post Service was established in 1775. You have had 234 years to get it right and it is broke.
b) Social Security was established in 1935. You have had 74 years to get it right and it is broke.
c) Fannie Mae was established in 1938. You have had 71 years to get it right and it is broke.
d) War on Poverty started in 1964. You have had 45 years to get it right. $1trillion of our money is confiscated each year and transferred to "the poor" and they only want more.
e) Medicare and Medicaid were established in 1965. You have had 44 years to get it right and they are broke.
f) Freddie Mac was established in 1970. You have had 39 years to get it right and it is broke.
g) The Department of Energy was created in 1977 to lessen our dependence on foreign oil. It
has ballooned to 16,000 employees with a budget of $24 billion a year and we import more oil than ever before. You had 32 years to get it right and it is an abysmal failure.

You have FAILED in every "government service" you have shoved down our throats while overspending our tax dollars.


AND YOU WANT AMERICANS TO BELIEVE YOU CAN BE TRUSTED WITH A GOVERNMENT-RUN HEALTH CARE SYSTEM??

90 Maristar
04-08-2010, 02:53 PM
You have FAILED in every "government service" you have shoved down our throats while overspending our tax dollars.


AND YOU WANT AMERICANS TO BELIEVE YOU CAN BE TRUSTED WITH A GOVERNMENT-RUN HEALTH CARE SYSTEM??[/B][/QUOTE]

I hear they (politicians) have a pretty good benefits package (health care).;)

JimN
04-08-2010, 05:31 PM
The heads of WalMart are successful because they aren't trying to get people to vote for them. Members of Congress want people to need them and that means they will do everything in their power to give things to those people. If they can make those people dependent on Congress, that's just gravy on the icing.

I saw a headline yesterday that said approximately half of all American Households won't pay ANY taxes this year. Why would 47% of the households want to replace a government that gives everything away, at no cost to them? That 47$ is enough to re-elect a bad President, from any party.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/07/income-tax-47-of-american_n_529059.html

And the one who get the most without lifting a finger to deserve any of it will never understand why the rest, who pay for all of this, are pissed.

captain planet
04-09-2010, 12:31 PM
I had asked in this thread or another one what the federal Govt. had ever run sucessfully and I was not surprised that not even Jorski could come up with anything.





Wal-Mart vs. Morons:

1) Americans spend $36,000,000 at Wal-Mart Every hour of every day.
[/B]

And not one penny is from me because I never walk into the place. :mad:

bcampbe7
04-09-2010, 12:56 PM
I (heart) this thread

scott023
04-09-2010, 01:01 PM
I had asked in this thread or another one what the federal Govt. had ever run sucessfully and I was not surprised that not even Jorski could come up with anything.





Wal-Mart vs. Morons:

1) Americans spend $36,000,000 at Wal-Mart Every hour of every day.
2) This works out to $20,928 profit every minute!
3) Wal-Mart will sell more from January 1 to St. Patrick's Day (March 17th) than Target sells all year.
4) Wal-Mart is bigger than Home Depot + Kroger + Target + Sears + Costco + K-Mart combined.
5) Wal-Mart employs 1.6 million people and is the largest private Employer, and most speak English.
6) Wal-Mart is the largest company in the history of the world.
7) Wal-Mart now sells more food than Kroger & Safeway combined, and keep in mind they did this in only 15 years.
8) During this same period, 31 supermarket chains sought bankruptcy.
9) Wal-Mart now sells more food than any other store in the world.
10) Wal-Mart has approx 3,900 stores in the USA of which 1,906 are Super Centers; this is
1,000 more than it had 5 Years ago.
11) This year 7.2 billion different purchasing experiences will occur at a Wal-Mart store.
12) 90% of all Americans live within 15 miles of a Wal-Mart.

You may think that I am complaining, but I am really laying the ground work for suggesting that MAYBE we should hire the guys who run Wal-Mart to Fix the economy.

This should be read and understood by all Americans - Democrats, Republicans, EVERYONE!!

To President Obama and all 535 voting members of the Legislature - It is now official you are ALL corrupt morons:
a) The U.S. Post Service was established in 1775. You have had 234 years to get it right and it is broke.
b) Social Security was established in 1935. You have had 74 years to get it right and it is broke.
c) Fannie Mae was established in 1938. You have had 71 years to get it right and it is broke.
d) War on Poverty started in 1964. You have had 45 years to get it right. $1trillion of our money is confiscated each year and transferred to "the poor" and they only want more.
e) Medicare and Medicaid were established in 1965. You have had 44 years to get it right and they are broke.
f) Freddie Mac was established in 1970. You have had 39 years to get it right and it is broke.
g) The Department of Energy was created in 1977 to lessen our dependence on foreign oil. It
has ballooned to 16,000 employees with a budget of $24 billion a year and we import more oil than ever before. You had 32 years to get it right and it is an abysmal failure.

You have FAILED in every "government service" you have shoved down our throats while overspending our tax dollars.


AND YOU WANT AMERICANS TO BELIEVE YOU CAN BE TRUSTED WITH A GOVERNMENT-RUN HEALTH CARE SYSTEM??

This is why I hate Walmart....

bcampbe7
04-09-2010, 01:02 PM
This is why I hate Walmart....

Come on now... You know you could substitute your store name for Walmart and still keep those same figures. :D

scott023
04-09-2010, 01:33 PM
Come on now... You know you could substitute your store name for Walmart and still keep those same figures. :D

Bullsh!te. :D

TX.X-30 fan
04-09-2010, 02:37 PM
Come on now... You know you could substitute your store name for Walmart and still keep those same figures. :D


He does those #'s on vibrating condoms alone...................................:D