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Knoxes
08-18-2004, 12:04 PM
I've seen this boat in the local classifieds for about a week. I thought I'd read that it was an inboard. Anybody know anything about them?

bradamerry
08-18-2004, 12:31 PM
I believe they are V-drives. I've seen one at the lake, but I didn't pay much attention to it. They the V-8 toyota motor.

MarkP
08-18-2004, 12:41 PM
Knoxes

http://www.boats.com/boat-articles/New+Boats-136/Totally+Epic/10971.html

MarkP
08-18-2004, 12:42 PM
Looks like a cool boat

http://www.dallasboats4sale.com/pages/toyota.html

http://www.boats.com/sites/wolfardmarine/boatnh?entityid=12562601&mid=2447

bradamerry
08-18-2004, 01:00 PM
Mark, I agree. Not bad looking, but I wonder how it performs?

MarkP
08-18-2004, 01:09 PM
To read what boats.com has to say, its a runner??

Knoxes
08-18-2004, 01:10 PM
I guess they've stopped making them?

Wouldn't maintenance and service be a nightmare?

It does look good, tho.

Leroy
08-18-2004, 01:15 PM
I looked at one when I bought my 230VRS Maristar in 2001. It was quite similar in just looking at it as the Maristar and with the Lexus motor I was sure it would be good. However it was closeout and Toyota was going out of that business so support would be gone shortly, and if you aren't selling the boats there is no dealer to go back to. So in the end I paid ~7k more for the Maristar (42k vs 35k for the Epic)...and haven't regretted that choice in anyway. It looked like a nice boat.

Knoxes
08-18-2004, 01:29 PM
Wow. That could have been a costly mistake, Leroy

A new 70,000 sq. ft. factory with ski lake was opened on July 18 2001. The plan was to consolidate Marketing, Engineering and Manufacturing all under one roof. The boats had previously been manufactured by Maritech, a Florida boat company that makes high end Gambler bass boats. They even have a Dale Earnhardt signature model.

There were several factors that lead to Toyota's decision to pull the plug several months later. Early in the game, they had decided to limit production to 500 boats a year to keep tight control on quality. With a proposed nationwide network of 30 dealers, that is 16 boats PER YEAR per dealer. That is 1.38 boats per month. Even at five or six boats a month, many dealers decided to drop the line as it is much easier to sell something that you have on the lot than a picture from a brochure. This lead to slow sales. Toyota, used to selling cars in high volume, had no idea how to do business in the comp boat industry.

To compound things, some dealers began reporting problems with the Epic 21's. While lake testing, they found that some of the boats would "chine lock", or get locked into a turn that the driver could not steer out of. After much yelling and screaming and more dealers dropping the line, Toyota discovered that there was indeed a problem, a twist had developed in the mold for the Epic 21 foot boat. Apparently, it had been left out in the Florida sun for a period of time, boats made after that period had a twist. To avoid potential injury or death and inevitable litigation, Toyota made the right decision. They recalled all Epic 21's and replaced them with BRAND NEW BOATS! This was very costly, but it was the right decision. There were no incidents of the boats "flipping" or crashing as a result, you may read otherwise on the internet in some posts by dealers trying to sell their competing products. Of course, this problem made it even more difficult to sell boats. With the economy in freefall, things were not going well for Toyota Marine. Then, September 11. The resulting economic crash was the straw that broke the camels back.

Toyota pulled out in October 2001, they formally announced it around the New Year. All owners received letters stating that Toyota was committed to its customers, and would honor warrantees and provide parts and technical support for ten years from that date, Dec 31, 2001. They also said that they would start a quarterly newsletter for Toyota Epic owners to demonstrate this commitment. That has not happened yet,


source: http://www.epicmarine.com/history_of_epic_boats.htm

Leroy
08-18-2004, 02:29 PM
Didn't realize it was that bad. COuld have been the worst 7k I ever saved :eek:

DanC
08-18-2004, 03:05 PM
Don't know about the other models but the Epic 21 direct drive seems to have the reputation of having fantastic slalom wakes, fantastic fuel economy and a lousy hole shot.

Toyota said they would maintain spare parts for 10 years :rolleyes: (back in 2002)

east tx skier
08-18-2004, 03:24 PM
That's what I heard, too. Great wakes. Good performance. No longer being made. Part of it could be that this industry is tough to break into. Just look at Infinity.

Knoxes
08-18-2004, 03:39 PM
Man, if you're trying to unload a '98 right now... you are ski-rude-uh.

east tx skier
08-18-2004, 03:53 PM
Huh? A 98 epic?

BriEOD
08-18-2004, 03:59 PM
Wow, yes Leroy, that could have been very bad...

H20skeefreek
08-18-2004, 04:00 PM
99 epic 21' 16,900 (closed bow)
99 prostar 205 19,200 (open bow)

I'll take the MC.

Knoxes
08-18-2004, 04:01 PM
Well, yeah. I mean, you've got, if you're lucky, 4 more years of parts supply and then - nothing. Not to mention service or support.

I guess this applies to all years, tho, doesn't it?

edited: waitaminute, I'm an idiot. It's 10 years from 2000, isn't it, not from the mfg date.

H20skeefreek
08-18-2004, 04:15 PM
Well, yeah. I mean, you've got, if you're lucky, 4 more years of parts supply and then - nothing. Not to mention service or support.

I guess this applies to all years, tho, doesn't it?

edited: waitaminute, I'm an idiot. It's 10 years from 2000, isn't it, not from the mfg date.

10 years from Dec. 31, 2001 is the way that i read it.

Knoxes
08-18-2004, 04:19 PM
keerist... I can't read, can I?

H20skeefreek
08-18-2004, 04:25 PM
keerist... I can't read, can I?

It's alright, i think Rick's "kill 'em all" comment has got you frazzled. But, I may have also read it wrong too.

Have you guys followed thos links above. it's a nice looking boat. I can't believe the tight fit on that motor.

JimN
08-18-2004, 09:45 PM
We had one or two come in for service(gelcoat or 'glass repair) not long after they came out. The tight fit was just as long as the side panels were in place. They were pretty nice looking boats, but if you look at the gelcoat, it didn't have much of a sheen. It looked like it had been worked over pretty much to get the look it had. The Lexus motor was really smooth, but it wasn't really hot out of the hole. The dealer in our area was a Toyota dealer first, then picked up the boat line. 15 minutes from a lake and at least 5 other boat dealers. I had thought the initial dealers were all Toyota car/truck dealers but from that standpoint, the service wouldn't really bother me. The fact that it's a stove getting out of the hole and taking it in the shorts on reasale would concern me more. What I had read in the trade mags was that Toyota was going to give Epic 3 years to make a profit. If it didn't, they would pull the plug(NPI). 'Nuff said.

When I was at MC tech school the last time, there was a Lexus/Epic motor on a skid at Alan's shop. I think they stuck it in a Maristar or something, just to test it. I'm pretty sure they dyno'd it too, but never heard anything after getting back.

lakes Rick
08-18-2004, 09:48 PM
[QUOTE=H20skeefreek]It's alright, i think Rick's "kill 'em all" comment has got you frazzled. But, I may have also read it wrong too.

Go ahead and blame me, I have an EX, I am used to it...

H20skeefreek
08-19-2004, 06:04 AM
[QUOTE=H20skeefreek]It's alright, i think Rick's "kill 'em all" comment has got you frazzled. But, I may have also read it wrong too.

Go ahead and blame me, I have an EX, I am used to it...


Rick, just a note, i wasn't blaming you, or anyone for that matter. I was just commenting that he was upset by your comment. We have learned to expect controversial things to come from your fingertips, and love you for it still rick. what would this site be w/o you?

Can't we all just get along?

just a note, i support the special olympics. This is just to make a point.

JimN
08-19-2004, 10:06 AM
Yeah, but think about how many disagreements on the internet just lead to people shouting at their monitor and typing really hard?

Leroy
08-19-2004, 10:06 AM
Hmmm, sorry, don't get the point from the poster? Who is the foundation at the bottom?

Knoxes
08-19-2004, 11:00 AM
Jim - I had a chandler that did some work on my boat tell me that the glass on the MC's is good and thick, but the gelcoat is pretty thin. Would you agree?

JimN
08-19-2004, 11:54 AM
Look at a lot of other boats and you'll be able to see if it's matting or woven roving glass. Bayliner leaps to mind for this. On the other hand, if the gel is too thick, it tends to crack more, even if there's not excessive stress on it, just from normal flexing. They measure the thickness of the gel and if it's too thin, it gets more. MC sprays the mold first, then applies the glass, which is one reason you won't see the pattern of the glass, but it really does produce a better looking boat. If you ever need to do any drilling or gelcoat repair and the scratch/gouge has a crisp edge, you'll see how thick it is.

east tx skier
08-19-2004, 12:02 PM
Jim, would you guess 1/4"?

Knoxes
08-19-2004, 12:02 PM
I wouldn't know what to compare it to. I do have a couple of scratches that he said were thru the gelcoat. So the way MC lays it is the best way to do it?

Leroy
08-19-2004, 01:26 PM
Hopefully pix helps. Attached is pix of the mold. They paint the gel coat in the mold, making it smooth and consistent thickness. Then they lay the fiberglass on top of that and really roll it out and then pull the part off the mold and gel coat is finished on the outside. Really slick how they do that. I know the overall thickness on the fiberglass is >1 inch over most of the bottom from cut outs I saw in the factory. I didn't see how thick the gel coat was.

I need to organized my tour pix from the spring and post!

MarkP
08-19-2004, 01:32 PM
Cool shots Leroy

jake
08-19-2004, 02:11 PM
I have one spot on my prostar where I can see the mesh of the glass under the gel, if the light hits it just right.

JimN
08-19-2004, 09:09 PM
Gelcoat is usually measured in mils, but I'm not sure what the usual thickness is. It's just like painting, but thicker than that. Nowhere close to 1/4". Sometimes it ends up being a little thin , but they're pretty good about how even the coating is.

phecksel
08-19-2004, 09:31 PM
Neighbor has one. It's extremely smooth, very good on gas, slow out of the hole, and wake is a bit large and hard. He loves it, I'll keep the M/C

OhioProstar
08-20-2004, 03:38 PM
Speaking of non-standard ski brands...check this Cobalt out...I never knew they produced a inboard:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=2487537983&category=63686

BriEOD
08-20-2004, 03:39 PM
Wow pretty cool

east tx skier
08-20-2004, 03:40 PM
Yeah, they had one of those at the dealer where I bought my boat for a while. Who knew?

Another off brand ... the Ski Ray. My uncle's got a 93, in which I rode this past weekend. Pretty sweet boat, but it's got a rooster tail to beat all others. Probably too tall to affect the wake.

jake
08-20-2004, 04:47 PM
I'd like to see that Cobalt...bet it's a Cadillac, wonder how the wake is?

MarkP
08-20-2004, 04:54 PM
Jake Iíll bet itís a bit heavy. Little bigger wake. Get up n go though at 55 mph

jake
08-21-2004, 02:29 PM
Mark: I think you're right, if you look at the one shot from the rear, you can see the hull has a pronounced V. Hence the top end of 55+, probably not an ideal slalom wake.