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mrm2083
12-08-2009, 09:51 AM
My boat starts up fine cold but once its been running for a few minutes I can't get it to restart.I've been playing around with it trying out different things and this is what happens. I tried starting it cold, fires up perfectly, turned it off 30 seconds later, fires up perfectly again. Did that like 3 times, all fine. I then let it run until it reached regular operating temperature, turned it off and back on immediately, started fine. I turned it off again and this time let it sit for about a minute, now it won't start. I figure its definitely not the starter, could it be the fuel pump, I've had problems and had to replace it in the past? People have told me it could be vapor lock but I've heard that is immpossible on fuel injected engines with an in tank pump?

MYMC
12-08-2009, 09:52 AM
My boat starts up fine cold but once its been running for a few minutes I can't get it to restart.I've been playing around with it trying out different things and this is what happens. I tried starting it cold, fires up perfectly, turned it off 30 seconds later, fires up perfectly again. Did that like 3 times, all fine. I then let it run until it reached regular operating temperature, turned it off and back on immediately, started fine. I turned it off again and this time let it sit for about a minute, now it won't start. I figure its definitely not the starter, could it be the fuel pump, I've had problems and had to replace it in the past? People have told me it could be vapor lock but I've heard that is immpossible on fuel injected engines with an in tank pump?
Year and model engine?

mrm2083
12-08-2009, 09:53 AM
2006 x2, rtp-1

MYMC
12-08-2009, 09:57 AM
Can you hear the fuel pump boot up when you turn the key from the "off" to "on" position before cranking (when warmed up)?

mrm2083
12-08-2009, 10:02 AM
Ya i hear it

JimN
12-08-2009, 10:08 AM
Open the throttle a bit and if it starts, it may be the coolant temperature sensor. If it failed and reads open or if the plug came off (or the wires to it were damaged), it'll cause the ECM to deliver more fuel than it needs and it will be far too rich. From your post, it seems to be cranking, right?

If opening the throttle doesn't work, go WOT and crank it- if it starts, immediately bring it back to idle. What about the impeller- is it possible that it lost a vane or two or the oil cooler is clogged? Could be crank/cam sensor, too.

Hollywood
12-08-2009, 10:10 AM
I think you should just take it to a Indmar service center and have them diagnose it. Equipped with the proper tools, i will be easy for them.

mrm2083
12-08-2009, 10:13 AM
My mastercraft dealer is pretty far and they charge like 200 bucks just to come down plus my boat is out of warrenty, if I need to I will go that route but if there are a few things I could try first I'd rather do that. I'll try JimN's ideas and report back

mrm2083
12-08-2009, 10:32 AM
Ok I tried it, giving it throttle does nothing, still won't start after it's warmed up. I did smell a little more gas when I gave it throttle though. The engine doesn't feel at all hot anywhere, specially near the fuel line or injectors. Any other ideas?

JimN
12-08-2009, 10:57 AM
Ok I tried it, giving it throttle does nothing, still won't start after it's warmed up. I did smell a little more gas when I gave it throttle though. The engine doesn't feel at all hot anywhere, specially near the fuel line or injectors. Any other ideas?

The first 4 things to do when troubleshooting:

Verify the problem (done)
Do a visual inspection- look for corrosion on connections, plugs and wires, frayed connections, leaks, melted insulation or anything else that may be unusual.
Do a wiggle test of all wires and plugs. This includes the point on the motor where all of the ground wires attach.
Use any diagnostic tools available to help find the problem. This may be harder to do since most people don't have much more than a timing light and a multi-meter but just about everything can be checked with those.

Check for spark, check fuel pressure and make sure the kill switch isn't causing problems.

mrm2083
12-08-2009, 11:04 AM
Ok I looked at the wires and nothing seems corroded, I'll try the wiggling. As far as checking fuel pressure, is there a way to attch the gauge without t-ing into the line?

boyd
12-08-2009, 12:18 PM
Has the starter ever been rebuilt or replaced?
I had mine rebuilt one time and had similar problem. The starter was getting hot and not wanting to crank. It was not rebuilt to marine standards. Bought a new one and everything was good. It turned over very slowly when it was hot.
The obvious is.......... something, somewhere is gettnig hot and breaking down.

Good luck.

JimN
12-08-2009, 01:52 PM
Ok I looked at the wires and nothing seems corroded, I'll try the wiggling. As far as checking fuel pressure, is there a way to attch the gauge without t-ing into the line?

Your fuel rail (hard fuel line on the motor) should have a valve with a cap on it. They started including this after '94. Sears, Autozone and other places sell a gauge that will work- make sure it has a bleeder valve and line on it so you can eliminate air from the gauge. That also makes it easy to take a fuel sample, which I highly recommend. If the gas isn't completely transparent, find out why.

Also, open the fuel filler cap to see if it starts easier when hot- that could indicate a clogged vent.

JimN
12-08-2009, 01:53 PM
Has the starter ever been rebuilt or replaced?
I had mine rebuilt one time and had similar problem. The starter was getting hot and not wanting to crank. It was not rebuilt to marine standards. Bought a new one and everything was good. It turned over very slowly when it was hot.
The obvious is.......... something, somewhere is gettnig hot and breaking down.

Good luck.

It cranks- it just doesn't want to fire. Your problem may have had to do with the timing advance, too.

Hollywood
12-08-2009, 01:59 PM
Check for spark (echo echo echo)

mrm2083
12-08-2009, 02:18 PM
Ok tested for pressure, when I click the ignition on it it hits 60 and goes back to 0, when I crank the boat it hits 60 and will stay there until the fuel pump stops running after about 2 seconds and goes back to 0. When on it stays at a steady 60. When starting it hot it still hits 60 on the crank, does this rule out a fuel pressure issue?

mrm2083
12-08-2009, 05:42 PM
The guys on wakeworld seem to think it may be the check valve because the pressure isn't holding when the pump is off. Anyone know where the check valve is?

Hollywood
12-08-2009, 05:56 PM
HAVE YOU CHECKED FOR SPARK?

You sure like chasing your tail.

mrm2083
12-08-2009, 06:00 PM
lol ur right i'll check for spark tommorow, it just seems like the fuel issue makes sense. Do I need to check all plugs for spark or just st the distributor cap?

JimN
12-08-2009, 07:33 PM
lol ur right i'll check for spark tommorow, it just seems like the fuel issue makes sense. Do I need to check all plugs for spark or just st the distributor cap?

With 60 lb, I'm less concerned with that than some of the other things it could be, like spark, IC module, etc. Wires become more flexible when they're hot and that's the reason I mentioned the wiggle test. I found a fuel pump ground that had been removed and not secured, which caused it to stop running after a hard turn when it was hot. Just something else to look for.

mrm2083
12-08-2009, 08:00 PM
But is the 60 psi supposed to stay after the pump shuts off? or is it normal for it to drop to 0?

JimN
12-08-2009, 08:20 PM
But is the 60 psi supposed to stay after the pump shuts off? or is it normal for it to drop to 0?

My guess is that the regulator is allowing the pressure to drop. I would be concerned if the pressure varies at higher RPM under load.

MariStar-Man
12-09-2009, 12:28 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>:popcorn:<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

mrm2083
12-09-2009, 10:19 AM
Ok I checked for spark etc, all good. I decided to take off the flame arrestor and I think I figured out the problem. When starting up the boat it isn't chocking, I pushed down the little flap to completely closed and now it starts perfectly every time. Does this mean that's my problem? Would that be electronic related?

cbryan70
12-09-2009, 10:25 AM
your spring could be going

MYMC
12-09-2009, 10:28 AM
Are the throttle blades all the way open when you check this?

Is the cable to the throttle mate sticking?

mrm2083
12-09-2009, 10:28 AM
Is there a website where I can find that, I can't seem to find the parts on skidim

cbryan70
12-09-2009, 10:32 AM
talk to MYMC he is WAY WAY WAY more educated about this crap then I am

mrm2083
12-09-2009, 12:01 PM
Ok I'm guessing the throttle blade is the round flap that opens and closes? If so, here is what it does, when I turn on the ignition it slightly opens and re-closes but it is never fully closed, at first glance it looks it but it isn't flat and there is a slight amount of space for air to pass. Basically what I did was had someone try to start the boat and pushed the flap completely closed and it starts off perfectly, I let it go and it runs fine, if I give it gas it opens up perfectly.

mrm2083
12-09-2009, 02:12 PM
this is how it normally is, slightly open

http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/267/img0326l.jpg (http://img689.imageshack.us/i/img0326l.jpg/) http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/img0326l.jpg/1/w900.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img689/img0326l.jpg/1/)

Here is how i get it to start, fully closed

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/8109/img0327j.jpg (http://img109.imageshack.us/i/img0327j.jpg/) http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/img0327j.jpg/1/w900.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img109/img0327j.jpg/1/)

mrm2083
12-09-2009, 02:13 PM
Yes I know it looks like ****, my boat is a salt water boat it's inevitable but it isn't stuck

MYMC
12-09-2009, 02:53 PM
Yes I know it looks like ****, my boat is a salt water boat it's inevitable but it isn't stuck
Looking at the corrosion on the throttle shaft I'm guessing it is getting "hung"...when you push on it can you feel any resistance? This could also be an issue with the throttle mate giving a bad signal due to a throttle cable issue. The "mate" interprets the throttle cable movement to move the throttle motor and that move the blade...

mrm2083
12-09-2009, 02:55 PM
The throttle cable seems fine, do you know if it's supposed to be completely closed on startup?

mrm2083
12-09-2009, 03:00 PM
When I accelerate the flap opens perfectly. Basically all is normal except the boat won't start but if i push the flap down on startup it starts fine.

JimN
12-09-2009, 05:10 PM
Ok I checked for spark etc, all good. I decided to take off the flame arrestor and I think I figured out the problem. When starting up the boat it isn't chocking, I pushed down the little flap to completely closed and now it starts perfectly every time. Does this mean that's my problem? Would that be electronic related?

Does this have Perfect Pass or anything like it? Remove the PP (or whatever) from the throttle linkage and see if it was binding. The throttle plate not closing will introduce more air than it needs at any temperature, so it can be harder to start. The drop in vacuum below the throttle plate would cause the ECM to deliver more fuel if it was already running but while cranking, this won't happen.

If you don't have Perfect Pass, the throttle linkage may be binding or need adjustment. The throttle cable fits onto a ball on the throttle pawl and if you slide the sleeve back, you can remove the cable. The throttle plate should close completely every time you open it and let it go.

mrm2083
12-09-2009, 05:50 PM
I have the mastercraft cruise but the throttle linkage isn't the problem. The throttle linkage cnnects to a little arm which is wired to the ecm. Even removing the arm does nothing to effect the plate.

mrm2083
12-09-2009, 08:48 PM
Ok found the problem. I always turn my key to the on position, wait till the systems boot up, and then start it. Well if I just start it without letting it boot then it starts perfect so I'm guessing there is a sender or something that is bad?

JimN
12-09-2009, 09:04 PM
Ok found the problem. I always turn my key to the on position, wait till the systems boot up, and then start it. Well if I just start it without letting it boot then it starts perfect so I'm guessing there is a sender or something that is bad?

You can't turn the key fast enough to make the ECM not check the barometric pressure (happens every time the key is turned on) but you can crank it before the fuel pump gets to full pressure. If you listen, the FP relay will click and you'll hear a buzzing sound for 2 seconds, which is the priming interval. Next time, remove the flame arrestor and look at the injectors when you turn the key ON/No crank and wait. If you see fuel coming out, clean them. Also, watch the spray cone while you crank it and after it starts. If you see any gaps in the cone, clean the injectors.

mrm2083
12-09-2009, 09:11 PM
How will I see fuel coming out of the injectors? What's the spray cone?

mrm2083
12-09-2009, 09:51 PM
Here is the rundown of symptoms
- start fine cold
- let it run until it reaches operating temp. turn it off and it wont restart unless
- I start it without letting it boot up
- I hold the butterfly cap in the throttle body completely closed

JimN
12-10-2009, 10:07 AM
How will I see fuel coming out of the injectors? What's the spray cone?

Oops- for some reason, I though you have TBI.

MYMC
12-10-2009, 10:26 AM
You can't turn the key fast enough to make the ECM not check the barometric pressure (happens every time the key is turned on) but you can crank it before the fuel pump gets to full pressure. If you listen, the FP relay will click and you'll hear a buzzing sound for 2 seconds, which is the priming interval. Next time, remove the flame arrestor and look at the injectors when you turn the key ON/No crank and wait. If you see fuel coming out, clean them. Also, watch the spray cone while you crank it and after it starts. If you see any gaps in the cone, clean the injectors.
Jim this is a "DBW" system...not complete though as the cable runs into a "throttle mate" that turns the analog cable movement into a digital signal to control the throttle.

MYMC
12-10-2009, 10:26 AM
Oops- for some reason, I though you have TBI.
It is...again sort of the RTP-1 is a multiport TBI bastardization.

mrm2083
12-10-2009, 10:44 AM
MYMC: I was just trying it out and basically as long as I turn it on before the fuel pump finishes priming at the begining it starts. For example I have about a 2 sedond window of it making noise as long as i crank it before it finishes it starts perfectly. If I wait just one sedond after the priming it won't start. I had put a fuel pressure gauge to it and it would read 60 psi while priming but then drop to 0 after, can you verify that it's supposed to do that and not hold the pressure?

cbryan70
12-10-2009, 10:55 AM
If you let it go through the the priming then turn the key to off then crank it over without waiting will it start?

mrm2083
12-10-2009, 11:02 AM
yes but the boat primes the second you turn the key so it will be pushing gas through at that time. Does that make sense? The only way it doesnt start is to have the ignition on and let it go through the priming and then turn it on after the fact.

MYMC
12-10-2009, 11:16 AM
MYMC: I was just trying it out and basically as long as I turn it on before the fuel pump finishes priming at the begining it starts. For example I have about a 2 sedond window of it making noise as long as i crank it before it finishes it starts perfectly. If I wait just one sedond after the priming it won't start. I had put a fuel pressure gauge to it and it would read 60 psi while priming but then drop to 0 after, can you verify that it's supposed to do that and not hold the pressure?
Once the key-on prime occurs you should have 60psi...after the pump shuts off the pressure should drop 15lbs or so. It will then bleed off pressure the longer it sits. Judging by what you have written it is bleeding off too fast.

mrm2083
12-10-2009, 11:18 AM
ya that's what I'm thinking. Do you know if the bleeding would be caused by a bad fuel pump, injectors, or is there a check valve to keep pressure?

MYMC
12-10-2009, 11:36 AM
ya that's what I'm thinking. Do you know if the bleeding would be caused by a bad fuel pump, injectors, or is there a check valve to keep pressure?
There is the rub...it could be a leaky injector or the pump module which contains the regulator. Remove the spark plugs are any "wet" with fuel?

JimN
12-10-2009, 11:51 AM
Jim this is a "DBW" system...not complete though as the cable runs into a "throttle mate" that turns the analog cable movement into a digital signal to control the throttle.

That's what I figured when he posted that the throttle is controlled by a module.

Does this have a "Home Position" setting, like reparking an IAC? IIRC, the DBW doesn't actually report positional information to the ECM, which makes it a "dumb" controller and if it's not closing completely, it wouldn't be self-corrected.

JimN
12-10-2009, 11:52 AM
It is...again sort of the RTP-1 is a multiport TBI bastardization.

Like the Center-Port system on '94-'98 GM, right?

JimN
12-10-2009, 11:56 AM
There is the rub...it could be a leaky injector or the pump module which contains the regulator. Remove the spark plugs are any "wet" with fuel?

This is the reason I mentioned looking at the spray cone, but had forgotten that it's an RTP-1. What's your opinion of products like the 3M injector cleaner that attaches at the Shrader valve and requires the fuel pump fuse to be removed, so the motor runs on the injector cleaner until it's empty?

MYMC
12-10-2009, 12:04 PM
That's what I figured when he posted that the throttle is controlled by a module.

Does this have a "Home Position" setting, like reparking an IAC? IIRC, the DBW doesn't actually report positional information to the ECM, which makes it a "dumb" controller and if it's not closing completely, it wouldn't be self-corrected.
You are correct
Like the Center-Port system on '94-'98 GM, right?
Correct again
This is the reason I mentioned looking at the spray cone, but had forgotten that it's an RTP-1. What's your opinion of products like the 3M injector cleaner that attaches at the Shrader valve and requires the fuel pump fuse to be removed, so the motor runs on the injector cleaner until it's empty?
I have never used it...but wouldn't be opposed. We used Redline SI-1 with great success.

Sounds like he has a FP module in this case...IMHO

mrm2083
12-10-2009, 04:32 PM
Ok i sort of fixed it. I replaced the fuel pump with one from advance autoparts and now instead of loosing pressure imediately it takes like a minute, so atleast now it starts good. I read a thread were someone said that they were loosing pressure through an advance autoparts pump because the threading for the hose was different, I'm guessing thats probably the problem I'm having now, but whatever it's good enough and I'll try to get it perfectly fixed eventually. Thanks to everyone that helped me, specialy MyMC and JimN

MYMC
12-10-2009, 04:42 PM
Ok i sort of fixed it. I replaced the fuel pump with one from advance autoparts and now instead of loosing pressure imediately it takes like a minute, so atleast now it starts good. I read a thread were someone said that they were loosing pressure through an advance autoparts pump because the threading for the hose was different, I'm guessing thats probably the problem I'm having now, but whatever it's good enough and I'll try to get it perfectly fixed eventually. Thanks to everyone that helped me, specialy MyMC and JimN

Glad to be of service