PDA

View Full Version : FAE vs Turndown?


jdhunt0
10-13-2009, 07:11 PM
Has anyone been in and behind the same boat with a FAE and turn down exhaust? How much of a difference was there in engine noise to the rider?

vision
10-13-2009, 08:01 PM
On a friends Malibu, the turn down tips made a noticeable difference compared to straight tips. On my X-star, the FAE made a huge difference. I would hazard a completely non-scientific guess that the FAE resulted in about 50% more reduction in noise than the turn down exhaust tips. Plus, you have greater CO reduction with the FAE.

If you want really quiet, I would go with the FAE. If you just want to take the edge off the exhaust noise, the turn down tips would likely work.

swatguy
10-13-2009, 09:23 PM
Without a doubt the FAE beats the turndowns for sure with noise reduction. No question at all. I will also agree with vision's statement.

If you want really quiet, I would go with the FAE. If you just want to take the edge off the exhaust noise, the turn down tips would likely work.

CottagerGreg
10-13-2009, 10:07 PM
Any turndowns available for my 09 X-Star? Or do I get a second pair of OEM baffled tips and get my buddy race car chassis guy to tig weld on a nice piece of polished stainless 3" bends?

TMCNo1
10-13-2009, 10:34 PM
Any turndowns available for my 09 X-Star? Or do I get a second pair of OEM baffled tips and get my buddy race car chassis guy to tig weld on a nice piece of polished stainless 3" bends?

IIRC, someone on TT has already installed a set of these from here, http://www.bakesonline.com/detail.aspx?ID=756

Finnsdad
10-13-2009, 10:40 PM
IIRC, someone on TT has already installed a set of these from here, http://www.bakesonline.com/detail.aspx?ID=756

Those are awesome! Even if they do nothing besides look cool, worth it in my opinion!

CottagerGreg
12-26-2009, 04:43 PM
Those tips are for a Malibu... I assume these would work for my X-star also?

At $160 each... it almost seems like I can get them made cheaper, then again I could be wrong

carracer
12-27-2009, 10:31 AM
what about any increased back pressure/ how applicable to boats with catalitic exhaust systems?

iplount
12-28-2009, 02:19 AM
I have a FAE it has worked great at making the the exhaust noise really quiet on my 08 x15. I have had it since I bought my boat in early 08. Had some trouble with it at the end of this last season coming loose and was about ready to chuck it and try the down turn tips from Malibu on Bakes. The guys who sell the FAE worked with me and even contacted me after I posted a similar question on a message board to help me solve my problem. Long story short my problem was solved with their help and I still love the FAE. The noise is gone and you can cruise at top speed and have a conversation with people and when listening to the stereo you don't have to crank it all the way up to enjoy it. Plus one for the FAE. Mastercraft dealers ought to provide it as an upgrade when you buy your boat!!!!!

medicmoose
12-28-2009, 08:57 AM
I have a FAE it has worked great at making the the exhaust noise really quiet on my 08 x15. I have had it since I bought my boat in early 08. Had some trouble with it at the end of this last season coming loose and was about ready to chuck it and try the down turn tips from Malibu on Bakes. The guys who sell the FAE worked with me and even contacted me after I posted a similar question on a message board to help me solve my problem. Long story short my problem was solved with their help and I still love the FAE. The noise is gone and you can cruise at top speed and have a conversation with people and when listening to the stereo you don't have to crank it all the way up to enjoy it. Plus one for the FAE. Mastercraft dealers ought to provide it as an upgrade when you buy your boat!!!!!

An option direct from MC is a great idea!!

CottagerGreg
12-28-2009, 11:52 AM
I still like the turn down tips... I want some noise... just not as loud as the current setup is....

I just want confirmation that those will work... also what is the consesus on them. I know Bu guys love em....

jdhunt0
12-28-2009, 12:15 PM
I have the FAE, it works well, just not wild about the looks or the spray it throws up. I may try to make some turn downs this winter and compare the two myself but not paying $160 for tips and I feel like what I paid for the FAE was too much.

K&B Performance
12-28-2009, 04:14 PM
I came across this thread today on the net and thought I would introduce myself to all of you. I am the original manufacturer of the Turn Down Exhaust Silencers, and I would like to help anyone that has any questions about the product or any other exhaust questions.

H20skeefreek
12-31-2009, 09:23 AM
So, you manufactured the original ones with the 90*turndown? I'm interested in finding a set of these for 4" pipe that will fit my '85

K&B Performance
12-31-2009, 11:43 AM
No problem. Check out my web site at www.knbsupply.com

CottagerGreg
12-31-2009, 03:23 PM
So I am looking at the following?

Item# 9260-35
Regular price: $295.00
Sale price: $236.00

This is the correct part if I wanted to put it on my X-Star with the 5.7ltr Indmar MCX w/CATs?

What kind of db reduction can I expect from my striaght baffled tips?

CottagerGreg
12-31-2009, 03:28 PM
Just noticed you have these too... Super Silencing tips...

Item# 9180-35
Regular price: $305.00
Sale price:



Can you please explain the real world difference on these.

K&B Performance
01-01-2010, 11:11 AM
The major difference between the EST and the SST systems is the EST mufflers are designed to run in conjunction with your current water lift system and to be sold as an aftermarket muffler enhancer, with a reduction of noise around 60%. We developed our SST system to run on its own with the same noise level reduction as the EST with a water lift system. Boat builders like this because they only have to install our tips as the muffling system.

thatsmrmastercraft
01-01-2010, 06:17 PM
The major difference between the EST and the SST systems is the EST mufflers are designed to run in conjunction with your current water lift system and to be sold as an aftermarket muffler enhancer, with a reduction of noise around 60%. We developed our SST system to run on its own with the same noise level reduction as the EST with a water lift system. Boat builders like this because they only have to install our tips as the muffling system.

Have you done any testing as to performance loss with the EST? I would assume there must be some to go along with the 60% noise reduction.

CottagerGreg
01-01-2010, 06:39 PM
The major difference between the EST and the SST systems is the EST mufflers are designed to run in conjunction with your current water lift system and to be sold as an aftermarket muffler enhancer, with a reduction of noise around 60%. We developed our SST system to run on its own with the same noise level reduction as the EST with a water lift system. Boat builders like this because they only have to install our tips as the muffling system.


Correct... 08+ Mastercraft no longer have the in-line mufflers and tips. They just have a baffled tip.

Now moving to the SST system over my OEM Tip will provide increase sound reducution?

Jesus_Freak
01-02-2010, 03:24 PM
I would assume there must be some to go along with the 60% noise reduction.

Oh yeah....Newton's 14th law: Noise = Power. J/K :D

Seriously, depending on where and how the sound is measured, part of the reduction could arise from the fact that the exhaust noise is simply aimed down. I would be interested to see how, incrementally, the sound reduction is achieved.

thatsmrmastercraft
01-02-2010, 07:50 PM
Oh yeah....Newton's 14th law: Noise = Power. J/K :D

Seriously, depending on where and how the sound is measured, part of the reduction could arise from the fact that the exhaust noise is simply aimed down. I would be interested to see how, incrementally, the sound reduction is achieved.

Laughing that hard at Newton's 14th law is hard on a sore back.

In my own cartoon bubble I was figuring maybe a 30% drop in noise with a turn down without any power loss, but a 60% decrease sounds like a lot of quiet not to give up some power. Just wondering if anyone had ever checked with and without.

Jesus_Freak
01-02-2010, 08:26 PM
Laughing that hard at Newton's 14th law is hard on a sore back.

In my own cartoon bubble I was figuring maybe a 30% drop in noise with a turn down without any power loss, but a 60% decrease sounds like a lot of quiet not to give up some power. Just wondering if anyone had ever checked with and without.

Sorry about the back. :D

Would definitely be interested to hear about any response on this. FWIW, MYMC and I did some "work" together in the past (dont have time to find the thread now) with stainless tips. Agreed that sound reduction is sometimes free, but "60%" does imply there might be a price incurred. Good point.

K&B Performance
01-03-2010, 03:12 PM
We have been designing mufflers for a long time for the marine industries and others. As far as our EST and our SST Silencers all the major engine manufactures like Indmar, PCM, and Mercury have tested them and found zero power loss. That is why MC and BU currently use a version of my silencers in their daily production. A little more info, my mufflers are one of the only ones allowed to run on Mercury's 1075HP engines because it doesn't create any back pressure and produces the greatest reduction in db.

thatsmrmastercraft
01-03-2010, 06:53 PM
We have been designing mufflers for a long time for the marine industries and others. As far as our EST and our SST Silencers all the major engine manufactures like Indmar, PCM, and Mercury have tested them and found zero power loss. That is why MC and BU currently use a version of my silencers in their daily production. A little more info, my mufflers are one of the only ones allowed to run on Mercury's 1075HP engines because it doesn't create any back pressure and produces the greatest reduction in db.

I'm rather curious, and not looking for an explanation only an engineer could understand, nor trying to uncover any trade secrets, but how can you make an engine quiet with zero power loss?

K&B Performance
01-03-2010, 07:30 PM
Well the simplest explanation that I can give is that I have developed a way to adjust the frequency of the pressure pulse of the engine to a more desirable tone without interfering with the exhaust gasses. When you do this it creates an environment of No power loss with a lot of db reduction. Sorry for the technical explanation, but I can't really explain it any other way.

CottagerGreg
01-03-2010, 08:23 PM
so you mention that Bu and MC currently utilize your tips... which model is a setup up from factory supplied?

thatsmrmastercraft
01-04-2010, 12:47 AM
Well the simplest explanation that I can give is that I have developed a way to adjust the frequency of the pressure pulse of the engine to a more desirable tone without interfering with the exhaust gasses. When you do this it creates an environment of No power loss with a lot of db reduction. Sorry for the technical explanation, but I can't really explain it any other way.

That is more than sufficiently simplified. I find this technology very interesting. Is it safe to assume you can accomplish this with a wet exhaust, and that this isn't something that you can accomplish on a car or truck exhaust?

WakeMikey
01-04-2010, 01:00 PM
I dont see why you would be worried about power loss. It is a larger exhaust than most cars or trucks and the scientific research at freshairexhaust.com supports the theory of no power loss. All you're doing is routing the exhaust one more foot in length. No biggie d imho.

The sounds reduction is amazing, I can hold a conversation in whispers from driver to passangers on rear bench seat while driving full speed. You can actually hear the water spraying off the hull. It is amazing. YET, when you throttle up the engine, or turn enough to create some turbulance near the prop, the full roar can be heard. Most notable on sharp, fast turns. Every whiff of exhaust is gone (unless idling). The wake is unaffected and I have noticed VERY little spray at the platform. Very happy and thanks again Larry!

downpipe is backwards in this pic oops
http://photos.wakeboarder.com/data/3519/medium/Picture_0031.jpg

Jesus_Freak
01-04-2010, 01:09 PM
Well the simplest explanation that I can give is that I have developed a way to adjust the frequency of the pressure pulse of the engine to a more desirable tone without interfering with the exhaust gasses. When you do this it creates an environment of No power loss with a lot of db reduction. Sorry for the technical explanation, but I can't really explain it any other way.

Seems like...

1. Your ability to modulate the pulses depends on RPM. The base pressure spectrum coming down the exhaust line is a f(RPM).

2. A reduction in sound will require a reduction in magnitude, not just frequency. It would hard to "adjust" without interference.

Do you have any patent or open publications I can review for this?

Jesus_Freak
01-04-2010, 01:21 PM
I dont see why you would be worried about power loss. It is a larger exhaust than most cars or trucks and the scientific research at freshairexhaust.com supports the theory of no power loss. All you're doing is routing the exhaust one more foot in length. No biggie d imho.


I have spoken with Larry on multiple occasions. Nice guy. These issues are not fully resolved, however.

We need to distinguish between A) Directional impact versus B) Detectable impact.

A) Almost any addition to any exhaust line is, most certainly, going to add pressure drop. That is fact, fact, and more fact. "One more foot" is not one more foot. It is 3 to 4 pipe-diameters (the absolute value of length is irrelevant). I am not saying anything about engine power here, just exhaust line pressure drop. Also, modulating frequency and pressure probably incur a pressure drop.

B). Can you detect it and does it matter? Well, that is a different story. It very well might not be discernable to the driver.

MYMC
01-04-2010, 01:57 PM
Glad to see the "something for nothing" is alive and well in 2010!

I'll let JF handle this one, he has forgotten more than I'll ever know; however, 10 years of building World Championship Offshore, NASCAR and CART engines make me qualified enough to call BS on some of the "facts" posted in this thread.

vision
01-04-2010, 04:05 PM
I have to agree with WakeMikey and with JF's valid second point.

Does the FAE decrease engine performance? Not that I can tell. It probably does, just it is not significant with my MCX. No change in RPMs at 25 mph, no change in gas consumption, and no change in perceivable hole shot.

Any extension of a tube adds resistance to flow. Certainly in air or with the boat stationary there must be some increase in back pressure with an FAE. Folks more knowledgeable than I may have an opinion on whether the vacuum affect of exhaust being pulled from the FAE while the boat is moving, something that does not occur with standard boat exhaust as it is out of the water at speed, would actually decrease back pressure while using the FAE?

Spray from the platform with the FAE, yes. But it only extends a few feet. I suspect you could mount a diverter under the platform and get rid of the spray if you wanted.

As WakeMikey said, turn the boat sharp or star the motor with the FAE out of the water and it is anything but quiet. The noise reduction is just from the exhaust being underwater while on plane. Poor fish.

The turn down exhausts sound like a good option for folks who want quieter but not quiet. I wanted quiet and minimal CO. Nothing I have seen beats the FAE for those goals.

thatsmrmastercraft
01-04-2010, 04:10 PM
I have spoken with Larry on multiple occasions. Nice guy. These issues are not fully resolved, however.

We need to distinguish between A) Directional impact versus B) Detectable impact.

A) Almost any addition to any exhaust line is, most certainly, going to add pressure drop. That is fact, fact, and more fact. "One more foot" is not one more foot. It is 3 to 4 pipe-diameters (the absolute value of length is irrelevant). I am not saying anything about engine power here, just exhaust line pressure drop. Also, modulating frequency and pressure probably incur a pressure drop.

B). Can you detect it and does it matter? Well, that is a different story. It very well might not be discernable to the driver.

Glad to see the "something for nothing" is alive and well in 2010!

I'll let JF handle this one, he has forgotten more than I'll ever know; however, 10 years of building World Championship Offshore, NASCAR and CART engines make me qualified enough to call BS on some of the "facts" posted in this thread.

Thanks guys. I have heard enough to let this end on its own accord. From what i have seen, the FAE, SST and EST are all well built and effective in that they don't impact performance significantly. I can see a real advantage for surfing.

My boat is still new enough to me that I haven't had the occasion where I don't love the exhaust tone. Perhaps that day will come, and I will know where to go (as if I don't get told often enough).

Jesus_Freak
01-05-2010, 01:05 PM
...Certainly in air or with the boat stationary there must be some increase in back pressure with an FAE. Folks more knowledgeable than I may have an opinion on whether the vacuum affect of exhaust being pulled from the FAE while the boat is moving, something that does not occur with standard boat exhaust as it is out of the water at speed, would actually decrease back pressure while using the FAE?..

Good point, Vision. In water (and in air....any translational motion) there will be a tendency to form a lower pressure just inside the tip. This is generally called jet-in-crossflow interaction. Keep in mind, however, that there are two forces that work against this: 1) There is a small static head of water above the tip and 2) submerged tips increase hull drag. Probably all falls out in the wash, but fun to discuss...

vision
01-05-2010, 07:02 PM
That is a good point JF. I did not even think that with our regular exhaust tips in air there is also some jet-in-crossflow affect. Like you say, probably not significant for either air or water, but an interesting concept.

K&B Performance
01-08-2010, 09:01 AM
Yes it is very hard and I can't release to much technical info at this point because it is still in the patent process. I will tell you that in a boat it depends on engine size, RPM, and the water in the exhaust. RPM is what most of the patent is based on, however In a boat you have a lot of water in the exhaust which can be used to increase the RPM range or frequency that you are keying in on, and making it more effective over a longer RPM range which allows us to be able to build a small muffler that can cover several different engine sizes without restricting the engine. Outside of the marine world you are correct, and that is why we build a great Generator muffler and not very good car muffler.

MYMC
01-08-2010, 09:54 AM
I'm rather curious, and not looking for an explanation only an engineer could understand, nor trying to uncover any trade secrets, but how can you make an engine quiet with zero power loss?
You can't...read the explanation below.

Well the simplest explanation that I can give is that I have developed a way to adjust the frequency of the pressure pulse of the engine to a more desirable tone without interfering with the exhaust gasses. When you do this it creates an environment of No power loss with a lot of db reduction. Sorry for the technical explanation, but I can't really explain it any other way.
Notice the wording..."adjusting the frequency of the pressure pulse of the engine to a more desirable tone" which is completely different than the follow up statement "no power loss with a lot of db reduction"... Tone would refer to a specific exhaust note similar to a musical note and db refers (at least I assume this is what he is referring to) sound pressure. However keep in mind a reason for using the decibel is that the ear is capable of detecting a very large range of sound pressures. The ratio of the sound pressure that causes permanent damage during short exposure to quietest sound that (undamaged) ears can hear is above a million. To deal with such a range, logarithmic units are useful: the base-10 logarithm of a trillion is 12, so a level difference of 120 dB represents a power ratio of this amount. Since the human ear is not equally sensitive to all the frequencies of sound, noise levels at maximum human sensitivity for example, the higher harmonics of middle A (between 2 and 4 kHz) are factored more heavily into sound descriptions using a process called frequency weighting.

I could go on and on about tips and mufflers...JF and I did a lot research on the original tips bolted to MC's. The proof was in the modeling and dyno work we did...the tips cost power...the mufflers cost power and the CATS cost power...anyone telling you different is selling you something. The bottom line is all mufflers, tips, CATS etc are compromises. An engine (as I have stated numerous times before) is an air pump...any change at the front (intake), middle (cam, heads, valves, compression) or end (muffler, exhaust manifold, exhaust tubing) will effect the efficiency of the pump and therefore the power output.

thatsmrmastercraft
01-08-2010, 03:30 PM
You can't...read the explanation below.


Notice the wording..."adjusting the frequency of the pressure pulse of the engine to a more desirable tone" which is completely different than the follow up statement "no power loss with a lot of db reduction"... Tone would refer to a specific exhaust note similar to a musical note and db refers (at least I assume this is what he is referring to) sound pressure. However keep in mind a reason for using the decibel is that the ear is capable of detecting a very large range of sound pressures. The ratio of the sound pressure that causes permanent damage during short exposure to quietest sound that (undamaged) ears can hear is above a million. To deal with such a range, logarithmic units are useful: the base-10 logarithm of a trillion is 12, so a level difference of 120 dB represents a power ratio of this amount. Since the human ear is not equally sensitive to all the frequencies of sound, noise levels at maximum human sensitivity for example, the higher harmonics of middle A (between 2 and 4 kHz) are factored more heavily into sound descriptions using a process called frequency weighting.

I could go on and on about tips and mufflers...JF and I did a lot research on the original tips bolted to MC's. The proof was in the modeling and dyno work we did...the tips cost power...the mufflers cost power and the CATS cost power...anyone telling you different is selling you something. The bottom line is all mufflers, tips, CATS etc are compromises. An engine (as I have stated numerous times before) is an air pump...any change at the front (intake), middle (cam, heads, valves, compression) or end (muffler, exhaust manifold, exhaust tubing) will effect the efficiency of the pump and therefore the power output.

Thank you.

TMCNo1
01-08-2010, 03:43 PM
Thank you.


He lost me at the word "adjusting"!

TallRedRider
01-09-2010, 08:04 PM
MYMC,

It is interesting that the Mastercraft Muffler on my 8.1L engine looks a fair amount like an inboard fresh air exhaust. I would have to assume then I am getting some reduction in power because of it? Is that what you are saying in plain English? ;)

Eric2010MCX2
01-10-2010, 05:12 PM
I would like to see MC bring back the chrome exhaust tips as an option over the hideous, cheap looking rubber flappers they put on the 09's and 2010's. These went away b/c they had mufflers built in them as I was told and were unreliable, but I imagine, you could just have the tips without the mufflers guts in them... just as a straight replacement for the rubber flappers.

When we were at Fanfare in October and ordered our X2, we were told it may be possible to get this tips rather than the flappers, but have gotten nowhere with this since then due to lack of communication from our area MC sales rep (not our dealer, but the MC sales rep that in charge of our area).

TMCNo1
01-10-2010, 05:41 PM
I would like to see MC bring back the chrome exhaust tips as an option over the hideous, cheap looking rubber flappers they put on the 09's and 2010's. These went away b/c they had mufflers built in them as I was told and were unreliable, but I imagine, you could just have the tips without the mufflers guts in them... just as a straight replacement for the rubber flappers.

When we were at Fanfare in October and ordered our X2, we were told it may be possible to get this tips rather than the flappers, but have gotten nowhere with this since then due to lack of communication from our area MC sales rep (not our dealer, but the MC sales rep that in charge of our area).

After you get the boat, you can always upgrade to any one of these with the flapper inside, http://www.rexmar.com/page230.html

JohnE
01-10-2010, 05:49 PM
I don't think that the sales rep is to blame.....

cbryan70
01-10-2010, 06:17 PM
I don't think that the sales rep is to blame.....

haaaa live in the same area John?

Eric2010MCX2
01-10-2010, 07:58 PM
I don't think that the sales rep is to blame.....


After a few emails back and forth his message was to basically "go look on your own".

that's it and that's all!, I don't wanna hijack this thread!:D

Eric2010MCX2
01-10-2010, 08:00 PM
After you get the boat, you can always upgrade to any one of these with the flapper inside, http://www.rexmar.com/page230.html

The above is exactly what I want, but can you get the "MC" on the inside of the tip like '08 and before tips? That is what I really want.

Thanks for all the input... we haven't even officially become MC owners yet and I have already learned so much from browsing this forum!

JohnE
01-10-2010, 09:26 PM
haaaa live in the same area John?

Not even close.....I'm near Boston.

cbryan70
01-10-2010, 09:34 PM
i beleive some one will throw the MC on the inside

johkur
01-24-2010, 11:02 PM
If you check the new 2010 catalog, it says "silentmaster mufflers /stainless transom tips" are standard on the X Series! (and also the prostars that I checked). Since they did away with the stainless tips in 2008, but now are mentioning them again in the new 2010 catalog, maybe the newer 2010's will have the stainless tips! The 2010's I've seen so far haven't had tips, but the 2010 catalog is newer, so maybe this was a mid-year change.

I also once tried buying a rexmar stainless tip, but although we ordered the right size to match the exhaust piping, the flange on the Mastercraft is broader than the Rexmar flange, so the bolt holes for the rexmar flange wouldn't have enough boat to grab onto. Rexmar was good about accepting the return as they were never installed, but you should measure the width of the bolt holes before ordering if you do order new tips, not just measure the exhaust pipe size.

Eric2010MCX2
01-25-2010, 10:13 PM
If you check the new 2010 catalog, it says "silentmaster mufflers /stainless transom tips" are standard on the X Series! (and also the prostars that I checked). Since they did away with the stainless tips in 2008, but now are mentioning them again in the new 2010 catalog, maybe the newer 2010's will have the stainless tips! The 2010's I've seen so far haven't had tips, but the 2010 catalog is newer, so maybe this was a mid-year change.

I also once tried buying a rexmar stainless tip, but although we ordered the right size to match the exhaust piping, the flange on the Mastercraft is broader than the Rexmar flange, so the bolt holes for the rexmar flange wouldn't have enough boat to grab onto. Rexmar was good about accepting the return as they were never installed, but you should measure the width of the bolt holes before ordering if you do order new tips, not just measure the exhaust pipe size.

Our 2010 X2 just got delivered and it had the hideous cheap looking flappers... grrrrrrrr..... Would love to see the stainless tips back! Hope I can just switch out the flappers.