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Ski-me
09-27-2009, 12:04 PM
The system will be much more reliable if you do not over power the speakers and you gain volume by adding cone area i.e. more speakers.

Sorry this is very long winded.

Wake2004.....the quote above is probably the most relavent for me. I am trying to gain more volume and accuracy in my suburban but I just can't seem to get it to my liking.

2004 Suburban
I started with 2-300/2 JL Audio amps driving:
1) Front 6" component Focals
2) Second Row 6" component Infinity Kappa's

In the rear, 1-XS2500 Phoenix Gold driving a 10" JL Audio in a sealed box.

This was not loud enough and lacking in the bass so I rebuilt the box to hold 2-10" JL Audio's.

It did improve but not enough in my opinion.

Someone suggested adding more "cones".....in your words. I had another JL Audio 300/2 so I hooked it up to some home made 6x9 boxes with Infinity Kappa 6x9's.

Again, it did improve a little....but overall, still not loud enough.

I am assuming it's because of the shear volume of the suburban but would like any suggestions on improvement.

Should I consider a "ported box" now? Change some speakers? I just don't know at this point.

Thanks for any help!

JimN
09-27-2009, 12:36 PM
Wake2004.....the quote above is probably the most relavent for me. I am trying to gain more volume and accuracy in my suburban but I just can't seem to get it to my liking.

2004 Suburban
I started with 2-300/2 JL Audio amps driving:
1) Front 6" component Focals
2) Second Row 6" component Infinity Kappa's

In the rear, 1-XS2500 Phoenix Gold driving a 10" JL Audio in a sealed box.

This was not loud enough and lacking in the bass so I rebuilt the box to hold 2-10" JL Audio's.

It did improve but not enough in my opinion.

Someone suggested adding more "cones".....in your words. I had another JL Audio 300/2 so I hooked it up to some home made 6x9 boxes with Infinity Kappa 6x9's.

Again, it did improve a little....but overall, still not loud enough.

I am assuming it's because of the shear volume of the suburban but would like any suggestions on improvement.

Should I consider a "ported box" now? Change some speakers? I just don't know at this point.

Thanks for any help!

In an enclosed space like a car or truck, a given level of power will be a lot louder than in a boat, but the rules are the same. Go to the JL site, download the test tones and set your levels according to the instructions before you do anything else.

How did you arrive at the box size for the single and double subs? That makes a huge difference and if it's wrong, equalization won't fix it. Also, if the box has any air leaks, it throws the tuning off. Watch out for incorrect speaker polarity, too. Once you get this done, if it's still not enough bass, turn the box around so it faces backward and listen to it- it may help.

Ski-me
09-28-2009, 12:12 AM
Thanks Jim.

I tuned the box via JL Audio's recommendation for the speaker. I basically built it to the suggested air space volume for each speaker. When I added the second one, I started from scratch and build one box with two separate chambers...sealed from one another.

In all of the cracks, I used silocone liberally. I don't think I have air leaks but who knows. It definitely helps if I have the speakers rear firing. I was able to test it today on a longer road trip and it does sound a little better.

I'll keep trying any new suggestions people have.

Thanks again...

Wake2004
09-28-2009, 02:25 AM
The Suburban is one of the most difficult vehicles to get good bass with small woofers, I never built a system in a Suburban with 10" woofers that I liked. The distance from the woofer to the driver is so far that it is difficult to get the wave form of the sub frequencies to be timed correctly. If space is not an issue and if you are looking for more bass I would first change to 12" woofers. Depending on the type of music that you listen to going to a vented box will help also but it is much more difficult to build as a vented box is not forgiving to mistakes that a sealed box is. I suggest going to a pro for this box to be built if your budget will allow (I would suggest the installers at Drive In Auto Sound Motor City location or Car Toys South Colorado Springs location). If going to a pro to have it built is not an option talk to JL (if you stay with the JL subs) they have good customer service and should be able to help design a box for you.

As for the front speakers good choice but you have mixed matched you speakers front to rear and if the Infinity's are within the last 2 model years they 2ohm while the front Focals are 4 ohm. this will cause a rear biased sound stage (think going to a concert but standing facing backwards) you should always try to have the sound in front of your face. If the mids and highs are not loud enough again try to add more speakers. In a 2004 model with a little custom work you can fit 2 sets of 6.5" components behind the factory grills. Your amp can handle unning both sets of speaker off the same channels. I would scrap the extra 6x9's in the rear.

Give me more information, what type of music do you listen to, are looking for more bass, more mids and highs or both? I will make some more suggestions based on the information provided.

Ski-me
09-28-2009, 12:28 PM
I’ve been dealing with Car Toys on North Academy at this point. They originally built the first 10” box and said that’s all I would really need. After a few months….it just wasn’t doing it very well so bought a second speaker. Going by JL’s website, I built a new box with two sealed chambers. Car Toys told me how to wire everything up and we bridged the Phoenix Gold Amp.

The Infinity speakers are probably 8 yrs old or so. The Focals are about 4 years old. The 6x9’s were basically a test on more cones in the truck. They were free so it was worth a shot. Had some issues with the JL Amps and basically long story short, got a third one for about $80. B stock but still a decent amp for the price…..all from Car Toys.

Music wise, all sorts except RAP. ZZ Top, Boston, Dave Mathews, Toby Mac, Third Day, Van Halen & Dire Straits. More mellow….Sarah Mclauphlin??, Norah Jones, Sting, etc.

Now, fyi. I have an Alpine 9887 with the Audissy?? So it has a lot of adjustments….just not too easy to access. The last time I went in to get the Onstar fixed, the installer messed with the settings and I did find out the “Expander” was set at zero within the Multi EQ section. After switching this to “2”, the sound really improved. Much more bass and the drums much stronger than before. All this time I’m thinking the system is REALLY lacking but this definitely helped.

As you might expect, the bass seems to be pretty much at it’s max and going to 12’s seems to be a decent idea that would give me a little more reserve.

My other goal, a little more volume and some more drum beat punches. Clean drums, not overly bassy drums. I think this is why I originally went with a sealed box vs. a ported one. Thanks again for any tips.

Wake2004
10-02-2009, 02:00 PM
Based on what you are telling me I would switch to 12" woofers in sealed box. The sealed box IMHO will sound the best with the music that you listed. Also the auddyssy eq system is very good and it will have to be recalibrated for the 12" woofers ( I am also the Denon home audio rep, Denon uses a more advanced Auddyssy system in their receivers that I believe is the best system out there). Also if you can afford it go with the extra set of 6.5" components in the front doors this will increase the mid bass and also help with your drums. I would leave the back speakers alone as these should be fill speakers and are the least important. I would think that you have enough power to do what you want unless you want to step up to the world of Rockford Power:)

JimN
10-02-2009, 06:13 PM
Based on what you are telling me I would switch to 12" woofers in sealed box. The sealed box IMHO will sound the best with the music that you listed. Also the auddyssy eq system is very good and it will have to be recalibrated for the 12" woofers ( I am also the Denon home audio rep, Denon uses a more advanced Auddyssy system in their receivers that I believe is the best system out there). Also if you can afford it go with the extra set of 6.5" components in the front doors this will increase the mid bass and also help with your drums. I would leave the back speakers alone as these should be fill speakers and are the least important. I would think that you have enough power to do what you want unless you want to step up to the world of Rockford Power:)

Did you see that Imax chose Audyssey?

JimN
10-02-2009, 06:18 PM
I’ve been dealing with Car Toys on North Academy at this point. They originally built the first 10” box and said that’s all I would really need. After a few months….it just wasn’t doing it very well so bought a second speaker. Going by JL’s website, I built a new box with two sealed chambers. Car Toys told me how to wire everything up and we bridged the Phoenix Gold Amp.

The Infinity speakers are probably 8 yrs old or so. The Focals are about 4 years old. The 6x9’s were basically a test on more cones in the truck. They were free so it was worth a shot. Had some issues with the JL Amps and basically long story short, got a third one for about $80. B stock but still a decent amp for the price…..all from Car Toys.

Music wise, all sorts except RAP. ZZ Top, Boston, Dave Mathews, Toby Mac, Third Day, Van Halen & Dire Straits. More mellow….Sarah Mclauphlin??, Norah Jones, Sting, etc.

Now, fyi. I have an Alpine 9887 with the Audissy?? So it has a lot of adjustments….just not too easy to access. The last time I went in to get the Onstar fixed, the installer messed with the settings and I did find out the “Expander” was set at zero within the Multi EQ section. After switching this to “2”, the sound really improved. Much more bass and the drums much stronger than before. All this time I’m thinking the system is REALLY lacking but this definitely helped.

As you might expect, the bass seems to be pretty much at it’s max and going to 12’s seems to be a decent idea that would give me a little more reserve.

My other goal, a little more volume and some more drum beat punches. Clean drums, not overly bassy drums. I think this is why I originally went with a sealed box vs. a ported one. Thanks again for any tips.

After reading the complaint about the bass, I think I would go through the EQ/crossover settings in the 9887 manual and make sure the phase is correct, too. That alone could be responsible for the lack of bass, especially if it coincides with the crossover points and they overlap too much. How does it sound if the EQ is turned off? Does the sound improve when you turn the sub amp off? If it does, go into the manual and look for the section about EQ setup and adjustment. You can reverse the woofer phase there and that will make a big difference. How does the bass sound if the other channels are off? If the box is right, it should sound really good. If the sound quality takes a dump when all of the speakers are on, it needs adjustment.

Wake2004
10-02-2009, 10:23 PM
Good point JimN

I did not know about IMAXX, I will have to check it out

JimN
10-02-2009, 11:05 PM
Good point JimN

I did not know about IMAXX, I will have to check it out

So- since you're the Denon Home Products rep, can I assume that you have an AVP-A1HDCI, POA-A1HDCI and a DVD-A1UDCI at your place? What speaker lines do you carry?

Wake2004
10-03-2009, 02:50 AM
I Wish! Not that Rich, I am still using a old 3805.

We were untIl recently a rep for Infinty/JBL but now the only speaker line we have is Boston.

Ski-me
10-03-2009, 11:03 AM
Thanks guys for all of your insight. I have played around with the EQ settings and it has helped the overall sound. The problem with the head unit is how complex it is to get into those EQ settings. The advantage, of course, is that I have the ability to MAKE those changes :D.:D

When I originally had the system set up, I used the microphone to set up the soundstage of the vehicle (Auddyssy). However, whenever I turned it on, I lost some of the "impact" of the drums and overall power of the instruments. The highs and vocals did sound somewhat better but the whole soundstage went from the front of the dash to behind the driver's seats. I just didn't like it as much. I'll keep playing around and perhaps try a pair of 12" speakers.

Maybe I didn't make it apparent but I do have 6" components (focals) up front already. Are you suggesting replacing these for 6-1/2 components?

Glad to now here you are a Denon rep but just a little too late for my recent purchase :(. Wake2004, where are you located? I just bought one of the last Pioneer 151 plasmas and was looking for a receiver. Went to ListenUp and he suggested sticking with the Pioneer Elite receivers because of the TV. I liked that because this would allow the remote confusion to be minimized (in my mind). I did, however like the Denons and especially the Auddyssy. I've heard that is a better setup than the Pioneers or Others. Maybe I could have picked your brain a little more before my purchase....oh well. Ended up getting the "03txh" unit. Sounds nice and does the job. I will have these hooked up to some B&W 685's and a Velodine 12" sub.

Thanks guys.

JimN
10-03-2009, 12:57 PM
Thanks guys for all of your insight. I have played around with the EQ settings and it has helped the overall sound. The problem with the head unit is how complex it is to get into those EQ settings. The advantage, of course, is that I have the ability to MAKE those changes :D.:D

When I originally had the system set up, I used the microphone to set up the soundstage of the vehicle (Auddyssy). However, whenever I turned it on, I lost some of the "impact" of the drums and overall power of the instruments. The highs and vocals did sound somewhat better but the whole soundstage went from the front of the dash to behind the driver's seats. I just didn't like it as much. I'll keep playing around and perhaps try a pair of 12" speakers.

Maybe I didn't make it apparent but I do have 6" components (focals) up front already. Are you suggesting replacing these for 6-1/2 components?

Glad to now here you are a Denon rep but just a little too late for my recent purchase :(. Wake2004, where are you located? I just bought one of the last Pioneer 151 plasmas and was looking for a receiver. Went to ListenUp and he suggested sticking with the Pioneer Elite receivers because of the TV. I liked that because this would allow the remote confusion to be minimized (in my mind). I did, however like the Denons and especially the Auddyssy. I've heard that is a better setup than the Pioneers or Others. Maybe I could have picked your brain a little more before my purchase....oh well. Ended up getting the "03txh" unit. Sounds nice and does the job. I will have these hooked up to some B&W 685's and a Velodine 12" sub.

Thanks guys.

IIRC, the EQ process uses several samples and averages them. The vehicle noise needs to be included in the samples because the system needs to overcome this if it's ever going to sound good. That's one of the reasons the phase of the sub can be reversed- the road noise cancels some bass frequencies and reversing the direction of the cone's movement can cancel the road noise. If you had a way to set up an RTA (Real Time Analyzer) in the vehicle and drive around (we all do if we have access to a laptop and a mic that's calibrated to the software), you'd see that the measured frequency response of only the road/vehicle noise would be almost all bass and extending up to the lower mid-range and at most speeds, would measure about 80dB-85dB loudness. In order to hear the system's sound as 'normal', i.e., the way it would sound if the motor was off and you were parked, the EQ needs to be set to the same 'curve' as the road/vehicle noise + the acoustical adjustments as its starting point. If it's not set this way, the road/vehicle noise will mask some things and accentuate others. In order to hear all frequencies equally well, the volume difference from any other sounds must be the same for all frequencies.

This is the main reason for high power and subwoofers in cars and trucks. A small head unit's amp and small speakers will never be able to obscure the road/vehicle noise AND let you hear the music in that range.

If you really want to get the most out of the system, run Auddysey while someone else drives, with the mic at the driver's head, where your ears would be, as well as several other locations, so the software can average it properly. If you only put it in one location, that's the only place it will sound the way the equalization adjusted for.

Think of it as using a drafting compass to trace the shape of a piece of wooden molding.

JimN
10-03-2009, 01:08 PM
Thanks guys for all of your insight. I have played around with the EQ settings and it has helped the overall sound. The problem with the head unit is how complex it is to get into those EQ settings. The advantage, of course, is that I have the ability to MAKE those changes :D.:D

When I originally had the system set up, I used the microphone to set up the soundstage of the vehicle (Auddyssy). However, whenever I turned it on, I lost some of the "impact" of the drums and overall power of the instruments. The highs and vocals did sound somewhat better but the whole soundstage went from the front of the dash to behind the driver's seats. I just didn't like it as much. I'll keep playing around and perhaps try a pair of 12" speakers.

Maybe I didn't make it apparent but I do have 6" components (focals) up front already. Are you suggesting replacing these for 6-1/2 components?

Glad to now here you are a Denon rep but just a little too late for my recent purchase :(. Wake2004, where are you located? I just bought one of the last Pioneer 151 plasmas and was looking for a receiver. Went to ListenUp and he suggested sticking with the Pioneer Elite receivers because of the TV. I liked that because this would allow the remote confusion to be minimized (in my mind). I did, however like the Denons and especially the Auddyssy. I've heard that is a better setup than the Pioneers or Others. Maybe I could have picked your brain a little more before my purchase....oh well. Ended up getting the "03txh" unit. Sounds nice and does the job. I will have these hooked up to some B&W 685's and a Velodine 12" sub.

Thanks guys.

I think he meant that you should add more speakers, not replace. More cone area is better than using only higher power to increase output because higher power causes the voice coil to get hot and when a conductor gets hot, its resistance increases. This dampens the dynamics and is called 'thermal compression'. I think I mentioned this before. It's the reason concert PA systems have so many speakers, along with the need to cover specific areas equally well. Sounds pretty similar, doesn't it?

Recommending that you buy the same brand of receiver as the TV sounds like Listen Up doesn't sell Denon. Matching brands makes no difference unless some proprietary connection must be used to access all features. Buy the receiver you like- they generally sound the same (as long as you're comparing apples to apples) but some are easier to operate, have different features or functions or are a nightmare to set up.

JimN
10-03-2009, 01:10 PM
I am still using a old 3805.

Amazingly typical for people in the business, isn't it? We sell the stuff day in, day out and what do we have for ourselves? Old equipment!

What do you use for speakers?

Ski-me
10-03-2009, 06:52 PM
I think he meant that you should add more speakers, not replace. More cone area is better than using only higher power to increase output because higher power causes the voice coil to get hot and when a conductor gets hot, its resistance increases. This dampens the dynamics and is called 'thermal compression'. I think I mentioned this before. It's the reason concert PA systems have so many speakers, along with the need to cover specific areas equally well. Sounds pretty similar, doesn't it?


This now makes sense on the amount of cones and the comparison to concerts.


Recommending that you buy the same brand of receiver as the TV sounds like Listen Up doesn't sell Denon. Matching brands makes no difference unless some proprietary connection must be used to access all features. Buy the receiver you like- they generally sound the same (as long as you're comparing apples to apples) but some are easier to operate, have different features or functions or are a nightmare to set up.

Believe it or not, ListenUp actually sells Denons and would have to order in the Pioneer Elites. The Elite I was looking at was from another store....not even his. Strange isn't it. I got it for $760 so maybe he didn't have a Denon to compare it to in that price range.:confused:

Wake2004
10-04-2009, 02:22 PM
Ski-me, yes I did mean to add an additional set of Focal's up front in the doors.

Thr pioneer Elite product is very good their TV's were the best in the buisness. It is too bad that they bowed out of the buisness. The receivers are good also with a very powerful amp, I think that because of the Audyssy in the Denon it makes a big difference in room correction but with you high end speakers they do not need a lot of help to sound good. Listen up is one of the largest independant Denon dealers in the country so I do not think they made a mistake they just sold you a product that fit your needs.

JimN, I hope to update my receiver soon but with the purchase of my boat this year the spare cash is gone! I hope to get the new AVR 4810CI.

JimN
10-04-2009, 03:37 PM
Ski-me, yes I did mean to add an additional set of Focal's up front in the doors.

Thr pioneer Elite product is very good their TV's were the best in the buisness. It is too bad that they bowed out of the buisness. The receivers are good also with a very powerful amp, I think that because of the Audyssy in the Denon it makes a big difference in room correction but with you high end speakers they do not need a lot of help to sound good. Listen up is one of the largest independant Denon dealers in the country so I do not think they made a mistake they just sold you a product that fit your needs.

JimN, I hope to update my receiver soon but with the purchase of my boat this year the spare cash is gone! I hope to get the new AVR 4810CI.

I'm hearing that Pioneer isn't totally gone, which is a good thing. Their idea to try to compete based on price bit them in the azz but the Kuro plasma sets I checked out and installed were definitely the best I've seen.

Eliminating remote confusion is a big deal, so they may have taken some of the comments seriously during the qualification.

Spare cash? What happened to your stimulus check? Go for the 5810CI You know you want it!:D

JimN
10-04-2009, 03:40 PM
One thing I forgot to mention about the Auddysey in the head unit- if it has several presets that can be accessed later, use one for when you won't be driving, one for highway speeds and one for around town driving. That way, it will sound as good as possible at all times, and it'll only be a button push away.

Ski-me
10-05-2009, 12:08 PM
One thing I forgot to mention about the Auddysey in the head unit- if it has several presets that can be accessed later, use one for when you won't be driving, one for highway speeds and one for around town driving. That way, it will sound as good as possible at all times, and it'll only be a button push away.

I wish.....but I can only have one preset on the head unit at a time. I can hold either 2 or maybe 3 on the computer before running the entire microphone setup again.

That would make it nice. I do like the idea of running the microphone test while driving. It might be interesting and perhaps, some good results. They always want us to do the test in a closed garage, engine off, without any exterior noise outside the truck.

JimN
10-05-2009, 09:52 PM
I wish.....but I can only have one preset on the head unit at a time. I can hold either 2 or maybe 3 on the computer before running the entire microphone setup again.

That would make it nice. I do like the idea of running the microphone test while driving. It might be interesting and perhaps, some good results. They always want us to do the test in a closed garage, engine off, without any exterior noise outside the truck.

Who is 'they'? If it's the Apline instructions, that makes no sense unless you'll sit in the garage with the motor off when you listen to it.

Ski-me
10-06-2009, 12:48 PM
Who is 'they'? If it's the Apline instructions, that makes no sense unless you'll sit in the garage with the motor off when you listen to it.

Yep. Straight from Alpine's instruction manual.......

Ski-me
10-06-2009, 12:50 PM
Manual.....

1 Prepare for MultEQ setting.
• Park the vehicle in a quiet location.
• Close doors, windows, sunroof, etc.
• Turn off the engine of the vehicle.
• Set the air-conditioner and heater to OFF.

JimN
10-06-2009, 01:03 PM
Manual.....

1 Prepare for MultEQ setting.
• Park the vehicle in a quiet location.
• Close doors, windows, sunroof, etc.
• Turn off the engine of the vehicle.
• Set the air-conditioner and heater to OFF.

That's how a system is listened to in a car audio contest. Not too practical for a motor vehicle in general use, though.

The last one is why we gave a few extra points in summer IASCA contests when the car owner brought the car to us for sound quality judging with the AC cranked. :D It was brutal when the AC had been off or didn't work.

Unless they came up with some kind of predictive software, I can't see how road/vehicle noise can compensated for.