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Mosaic13
06-07-2005, 01:03 PM
Well just got the bad news. Hit some drift wood over the weekend and JOA is telling me that the shaft is bent and so is the prop (I could see the lip on the prop myself and the vibration in the control was apparent). Anyway, they are strongly recommending a new prop primarily because balancing is such a sensitive issue and rebuilds, no matter how well done, are never the same as new. Thoughts? The difference in cost is $340.

tex
06-07-2005, 01:06 PM
unless it is really tore up-a good shop can always rebuild!

Mosaic13
06-07-2005, 01:14 PM
Well I'm obviously no expert but depending on how you define "tore up" it looks pretty minor. Like I said there's a small (maybe 1/4") lip on one blade and I'm sure it's out of whack from the others somewhat. I'm really surprised at the damage on the shaft. What I hit was not that large. But anyway, a lot of labor costs associated with that one as well.

I know most on this board have been driving D & V drives for a long time and maybe never damaged a prop, but it seems odd that parts so expensive and so vulnerable are not in ANY way protected from obstacles. At least in the Georgia/Alabama area, there isn't lake around that isn't FULL of crap floating in the water. Anyway, I'm venting.

So how and where can I find a good shop for a second opinion on the prop? Thanks!!!

east tx skier
06-07-2005, 01:22 PM
To give you a basis of comparison, I "tore up" my father in law's 4 blade OJ Force last summer by hitting a broken off channel marker. While the shaft was bent beyond straigtening, the prop was not. I bent one of the blades at least 45 degrees backwards (almost down to the hub). Sent it to OJ (it was their prop). $85 plus shipping and it ran smoother than before I hit the channel marker.

I declare shenanigans on whomever is saying you need a new prop (assuming (1) it is less torn up than mine, and (2) it is a hand finished prop as I have no experience with rebuilt CNC'd props).

Mosaic13
06-07-2005, 02:23 PM
I know nothing about different types of props. I'm the definition of a "newbie". Whatever comes stock (if there is such a thing) on an '04 210 VRS w/MCX. I can say that the damage is MUCH less than what you describe. By that description mine is truly minor. On top of that, JOA is telling me that they called MC and they have to put a new prop on back order(?). This sucks. I want my frickin' boat back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

bfinley
06-07-2005, 02:42 PM
I did pretty much the same thing this weekend. I was getting to boat off the trailer and floated over to a shallow/rocky spot without knowing it. Made a pretty nasty sound when it put it in gear.

The prop really doesn't look that bad, but when I get over 20 MPH, the boat vibrates like crazy. I ordered a new prop from propsonline.com yesterday, I'm supposed to have it by Thursday at the latest.

BTW - I got a new ACME 541 for $315.

Brandon

Mosaic13
06-07-2005, 02:54 PM
Bfinley...in your case you probably didn't touch the shaft, but in my case with labor that's actually going to be more than the prop. Lucky for me Ski Safe is going to cover everything over $1k so going with the new prop really won't cost me. The total for the new prop, the new shaft and labor is $1,530 and change.

east tx skier
06-07-2005, 02:59 PM
If it's an 04, I think that woud be a CNC'd prop. Call OJ and see what they recommend. They can certainly be repaired.

Mosaic, that's pretty steep (of course, in my case, I had the prop refurbed). But I also had glass work. Still barely broke $1K with parts and labor. No fun either way you slice it though.

Granite_33
06-07-2005, 03:04 PM
The prop just needs to be fixed. I have had 2 done in the past. Took them to the local marina / dealer, they sent it out for repair. A good prop repair shop will take care of it.......OR, depending upon who made it, you might be able to send it back to the manufacturer. I know ACME will repair their own props for a fee. CNC props are repairable. Yours sounds very minor.

JOA is right, rebuilds are never the same as new. But they can't be serious if they really expect someone to buy a new prop every time one gets dinged up. :eek:

I am also really surprised about the shaft. From the sounds of it, your prop didn't get beat up too bad.......so I am surprised to hear that the shaft is bent too. Did they verify this by taking the shaft out and checking it? Or was this a visual? That sounds really iffy.

Tell the guys at JOA thanks, but no thanks on the prop. Find a good prop repair shop in the area, or send the prop to the mftcr if they will repair it.

You need a 2nd opinion........... :twocents:

east tx skier
06-07-2005, 03:14 PM
That's what I've heard with the CNC props, never as good as new. With hand finished props, in my limited experience, and according to a local inboard mechanic with whom I've had lengthy discussions, and who has had a great deal of experience with NIB versus refinished props, sometimes they're better than new.

Mosaic13
06-07-2005, 03:39 PM
Well, as for the shaft (and to answer your question so far it's strictly visual 'cause I asked the same thing) whatever hit my prop hit the shaft first. In fact, that may have been what deflected it and resulted in less damage to the prop than a direct hit (so the story goes). I don't know...like I've often said I'm new to this. I have to believe that this is not uncommon. There is driftwood and trees EVERYWHERE in these lakes. I'm very careful but C'MON!!! If it's going to be $1k+ every time I hit a stick...

Leroy
06-07-2005, 03:57 PM
How did JOA know the shaft was bent? Can you see it or did they test it?

mtrask
06-07-2005, 04:08 PM
To give you a basis of comparison, I "tore up" my father in law's 4 blade OJ Force last summer by hitting a broken off channel marker. While the shaft was bent beyond straigtening, the prop was not. I bent one of the blades at least 45 degrees backwards (almost down to the hub). Sent it to OJ (it was their prop). $85 plus shipping and it ran smoother than before I hit the channel marker.

I declare shenanigans on whomever is saying you need a new prop (assuming (1) it is less torn up than mine, and (2) it is a hand finished prop as I have no experience with rebuilt CNC'd props).


OJ Did mine and it came out better than original as well @ $65 + Shipping obviously not as bad as the above prop. Local shop wanted over $150 to do prop. definetely send to OJ if a OJ prop and let them tell you there recomendation!!

Good Luck

Mosaic13
06-07-2005, 04:13 PM
Apparently (I haven't seen this myself) they can visually see that it's bent. They're supposed to be sending me some photos to forward to the insurance company, but haven't recieved anything yet.

I just don't get it. Is it possible that there are magic floating cinder blocks in Lake Wedowee?

And you know, back in my helicopter flying days we had wire cutters on the front so that if you happened upon some power lines the cutters would at least make an attemt to sever the the wire before the wire severed the rotor system. I think a similar need exists here. Too much expensive stuff underneath these boats to not at least have some kind of guard in front. Nothing huge. Just something to at least TRY to push things aside. There I go, venting again!!!:-)

BRAZOS 205
06-07-2005, 04:36 PM
Mosaic,
Sorry to hear about your prop and shaft. I just bought a new prop myself, I've got about 5 dings in my stock 3 blade. No one ever said Boating was an inexpensive hobby. And if they did build a guard on boats (which will never happen) the guard would have to extend deeper into the water than your prop to actually be productive as a guard and you would completely change the handling characteristics of the boat; you would eventually be replacing the guard instead of your prop. Don't think your the only one who has to spend money on replacing a prop and shaft. Everyone on this board has replaced at least their prop. This gives you a good reason to buy that backup prop anyways and it sounds like you need one on the lakes your using.
Think of it as a learning experience, and there will me more to follow.

Mosaic13
06-07-2005, 04:36 PM
BTW, I inquired with MC via the contact link on this web page what the factory prop for my boat would be. This, verbatim, is the response that I got...

"The original prop for model and engine is 14" x 18."

Could they be any less helpful? Take any less time? I don't know, manufacturer...part number...something. Oh well...not a good first experience with MC direct communications. :uglyhamme

Granite_33
06-07-2005, 04:58 PM
Well, as for the shaft (and to answer your question so far it's strictly visual 'cause I asked the same thing) whatever hit my prop hit the shaft first. In fact, that may have been what deflected it and resulted in less damage to the prop than a direct hit (so the story goes). I don't know...like I've often said I'm new to this. I have to believe that this is not uncommon. There is driftwood and trees EVERYWHERE in these lakes. I'm very careful but C'MON!!! If it's going to be $1k+ every time I hit a stick...

Well, you can't drive around in a lake full of floating logs, but I get your point. :D The running gear is normally pretty resilient and will withstand quite a bit (within reason) Hopefully the driftwood will sink fairly quickly.
Funny how the shaft deflected the log......and how it resulted in less damage to the prop......which they say you have to replace anyway :confused:
#1 Repair the prop. That will at least cut down on your bill. These are easy to take off and re-install. Someone here can help you with the steps to take it off, its not hard.
#2 Not sure what to tell you about the shaft. It can look straight, but unless you put the appropriate gauges on it, you'll never know. I would inquire more than several times about how they can tell it is bent. If they have the right gauges to tell, they can show you.......If you have to replace it by word of mouth, then ask them to give you the "bent" one. (Sad to say, if you don't trust them, you can take the shaft to a performance center, machine shop, etc and test the runout.)

The price they are quoting is steep. You may want to ask for a 2nd opinion based on the fact that they want $1500+ for this job.
:twocents:

east tx skier
06-07-2005, 05:08 PM
BTW, I inquired with MC via the contact link on this web page what the factory prop for my boat would be. This, verbatim, is the response that I got...

"The original prop for model and engine is 14" x 18."

Could they be any less helpful? Take any less time? I don't know, manufacturer...part number...something. Oh well...not a good first experience with MC direct communications. :uglyhamme

On an 04, 14x18 OJ XMP, left hand turn (splined prop, correct?). MC uses OJ stock on all its boats. I didn't see that you had a power slot, so the shaft diameter (for prop considerations would be 1"). I've never seen part numbers referenced for OJ. The pitch x diameter x shaft (L/R Hand Turn) and finish is what's important. For future reference, the size is imprinted on the aft side of the prop hub (I know you don't have it handy to check). 2004 and up, MC was using XMP (CNC'd props). All newer (and I use the term "newer) loosly) MCs are left hand turn. They may all be, but I'm not sure about the older boats that ran PCM engines.

Again, I'd suggest you send the prop to OJ to get it refurbed. I wish I had some pictures of how badly mine was beat up. Sounds like your damage is minor by comparison. Turn around time was about 2 days (once they had the prop). Total, about a week to get it back in my situation.

The shaft, in my situation, was bent up so far that the prop took out the gel coat. But in your situation, it's definitely worth getting a second opinion on the shaft. A good machine shop can straighten it within tolerance. If you do a search on the board, you should find the link to my story (from last July). In it, BriEOD references a business that straightened his shaft. Certainly more cost effective than buying a new one.

Mosaic13
06-07-2005, 05:19 PM
Ok...more info. Had a long conversation with the parts man at JOA. He told me it is a 13" x 17". (odd, since MC and several on this board say it's a 14" x 18"). Anyway, I asked him about the manufacturer and he told me that MC uses their own "blanks" and makes their own props. Still recommended that I go with a new prop but definitely hold on to the old one, have it repaired and keep it for a spare. I don't know what to make of any of this. And by the way, I see you all use the term "CNC" or "CNC'd" all the time. What does that mean?

Thanks so much for all your feedback!!!

east tx skier
06-07-2005, 05:26 PM
Whaaaa?!?? Eric @ OJ, care to comment.

My OEM is an OJ legend 3 blade. Don't take my word on the size. I was just using that because MC sent you that spec. Last brand new MC I looked at had an OJ on it in the showroom.

CNC is a computer-aided finishing process used by Acme on all of its props and OJ on its XMP props. It offers a greater level of precision in the finishing process over hand finishing resulting in a more accurate prop (this all translates, in a general sense) to a prop that performs better and smoother) over a hand finished prop.

BRAZOS 205
06-07-2005, 05:39 PM
Standard props like the 13 x 13 and the 14 x 18 that Mastercraft used before 04 were not CNC. The new CNC props are 12.5 x 12 (OJ XMP)which replaced the 13 x 13. This is what I was told at least for 97 p205. Now the 14 x 18 might be a 13 x 17 CNC (OJ XMP), I cannot commint on that for sure. CNC props have changed the standard dimensions I am used to.

east tx skier
06-07-2005, 05:41 PM
Very true on the sizes, but usually only affects pitch in my experience (as opposed to diameter) (went from a 13x13 to a 13x12).

What surprises me is that a dealer is telling him that they cut their own props? That strikes me as very strange. But I've heard stranger.

rem_pss308
06-07-2005, 05:44 PM
I have had my new CNC acme prop reburbished by a local shop. It cost $100.00.
It seems to be as good as when it was new. ( a couple of months ago )
Mine had a blade bent back touching itself.

As far as your shaft. I would look at it, and I would also get a second opinion.

If you have a Dial indicator you can check it yourself.
MIght save lots of dollars if the shaft is not bent.

If it is bent. A machine shop might be able to straighen it.

BRAZOS 205
06-07-2005, 06:14 PM
Very true on the sizes, but usually only affects pitch in my experience (as opposed to diameter) (went from a 13x13 to a 13x12).

What surprises me is that a dealer is telling him that they cut their own props? That strikes me as very strange. But I've heard stranger.
Eastie - OJ XMP does not come in a 13 x 12 size, it comes in a 12.5 x 12 size in 4 blade. I know you have the acme which does come in 13 x 12.
Mosaic - The OJ XMP splined shaft, which should be OEM, is a 13.7 x 17 prop. OJ XMP does not come in 13 x 17. This is from my own web research when I was looking for a new prop. I ordered my new OJ XMP from SkiDIM, they sent me a splined shaft which goes on the 04 or 03 boats and later, the box it came in said OJ XMP, Genuine Mastercraft Parts (GMP). I don't necessarily think you need to order the prop from mastercraft. I am not a Prop salesman or Fluid Dynamics Engineer, I just stayed in a Holiday Inn last night. I would talk with someone from OJ Propellers for more info.

east tx skier
06-07-2005, 06:21 PM
While that may be true for the four blade (I've never looked), I happen to have in my possession an OJ XMP 13x12 3 blade prop that I plan to put through some trials next week, weather permitting. Special thanks to Eric at OJ for allowing me the opportunity to check out one of his props for the summer.

Again, didn't know that about the 4 blades. And I don't believe MC puts 3 blades stock on their boats anymore. Anyone know the benefits of going to a smaller diameter on the four blades? Just curious.

Granite_33
06-07-2005, 06:23 PM
Mosaic,
Strange indeed...........
CNC Means Computer Numerically Controlled machining. All computer controlled, very, very tight tolerances.

Not sure what to tell you about the guy you are talking to. I can see a slip up in prop pitch and diameter, but "MC makes their own props" tells me he either
#1 takes you for an idiot. :rant:
#2 is, in fact, himself an idiot.

Another thought as well........you mentioned insurance company earlier. If the marina / dealer knows that this is going to be an insurance claim, that could be the reason why you have a shaft and prop that need to be completely replaced........ :rant:

Any other MC dealers in the area that you could go to??

:twocents:

east tx skier
06-07-2005, 06:28 PM
From JOA's website (http://www.joamarine.com/brochure.asp?&tab=&siteid=&bvdid=2427&modelid=43794&pmid=43794&reflink=&cid=2046&) (clicked the MC link and went to the Maristar 210 brochure). I know it's for a 2005, but ...

"Propulsion & Systems
1.56:1 gear ratio transmission
3-year limited engine warranty
4-blade 14" prop
CNC OJ propellers
EZ Change oil kit
...."

Mosaic13
06-07-2005, 06:40 PM
From JOA's website (http://www.joamarine.com/brochure.asp?&tab=&siteid=&bvdid=2427&modelid=43794&pmid=43794&reflink=&cid=2046&) (clicked the MC link and went to the Maristar 210 brochure). I know it's for a 2005, but ...

"Propulsion & Systems
1.56:1 gear ratio transmission
3-year limited engine warranty
4-blade 14" prop
CNC OJ propellers
EZ Change oil kit
...."


That's good stuff. This is why I could see the value in this board right off. :) I'll see if I can get in touch with OJ Props either via phone or e-mail and get their thoughts. Also, for the record the shop knew nothing about my intentions to use insurance before they told me about the shaft being bent.

BRAZOS 205
06-07-2005, 06:44 PM
I should have mentioned 4 blade from the beginning, sorry for the confusion. I associate V-drives w/ wakeboarding w/ 4 blade props.
I'm just going from OJ's website on their listed Prop sizes on XMPs.
OJ Props (http://www.ojprop.com/site/sizes.htm)
13.7" is such an odd size, it is probably refered to as a 14".
I'm no expert on the matter though.

east tx skier
06-07-2005, 06:49 PM
No worries. I'm no expert either. I was just curious as to what the benefit of dropping diameter would be (if anyone knows).

BRAZOS 205
06-07-2005, 06:58 PM
Maybe OJs 4 blade XMP would be heavier at 13" diameter than the 3 blade XMP at 13" diameter, therefore reducing the diameter to 12.5" would reduce the weight to be equal with the 3 blade 13"; giving them the same Moment of Inertia and therefore attaining the same rpms at WOT. That is my guess.

Mosaic13
06-07-2005, 06:59 PM
This is direct from OJ's site (thank you Brazos!).

"Cost of the repairs are based on the extent of damage to the propeller. All propellers will be repaired to original specifications and are guaranteed to perform as good as new or we will fix it again at no charge."

Sounds like not only do they feel that repairs are worth it, but they feel damn good about it!!!

east tx skier
06-07-2005, 07:00 PM
That was my experience with the old OJ Force. Typically, from what I've seen, it's $75 for a 3 blade, and $85 for a four.

lakes Rick
06-07-2005, 07:06 PM
I personally think a repaired prop, done by a pro, comes out better than a new one..

Mosaic, sounds like your first inboard?? Trust everyone on here.. A few small dings make a MAJOR difference in your prop.

6ballsisall
06-07-2005, 07:26 PM
Well just got the bad news. Hit some drift wood over the weekend and JOA is telling me that the shaft is bent and so is the prop (I could see the lip on the prop myself and the vibration in the control was apparent). Anyway, they are strongly recommending a new prop primarily because balancing is such a sensitive issue and rebuilds, no matter how well done, are never the same as new. Thoughts? The difference in cost is $340.

I haven't read everyone elses posts yet but I can tell you know I had a OJ Legend 4 Blade prop that looked like someone used it as a chain saw and after a visit to Delta Propeller it is smooth as silk. I also have a CNC prop that had an edge get bent, again Delta Propeller worked it and you would never know anything was done.

IMO, unless the blades are compeletely gone and you have just a hub I can't see why you'd need a new one over a rebuild.

6ballsisall
06-07-2005, 07:30 PM
Ok...more info. Had a long conversation with the parts man at JOA. He told me it is a 13" x 17". (odd, since MC and several on this board say it's a 14" x 18"). Anyway, I asked him about the manufacturer and he told me that MC uses their own "blanks" and makes their own props. Still recommended that I go with a new prop but definitely hold on to the old one, have it repaired and keep it for a spare. I don't know what to make of any of this. And by the way, I see you all use the term "CNC" or "CNC'd" all the time. What does that mean?

Thanks so much for all your feedback!!!

Mosaic run away fast and take your waders with you because their S*** is getting really deep!

Mosaic13
06-07-2005, 10:33 PM
Ok...so I'm now commited (thanks to you guys) to pinning this dealer down on what they're suggesting. After looking over the OJ Prop site I'm at a total loss as to why they didn't suggest that I just ship it back to them, OR (an even better question) since they're an authorized OJ reseller, why they just don't DO THAT THEMSELVES AS A MATTER OF PRACTICE.

Secondly, I want to see that prop shaft for myself. If the damage is so obvious I want to see it for myself. If it is visably damaged well then there's not much I can do there. I'll have to let them fix that. But I'm really getting irritated about the prop. We'll see what happens. :confused:

Mosaic13
06-07-2005, 11:02 PM
This is so perfect! It's comforting to know that others share in my pain (sorry Steve :wavey: ). This is a post from Maristar 210 from today relating to a thread he started a while back. This, my money hating comrads, is the sum of all my fears and why I'm afraid to challange this questionable service deptartment too much knowing as little as I do...

===========================
Well some of you may remember my original episode with this boat at 0.8 hours of run time I hit a stump. You remember don't you? Bent prop. Replaced and vibration went away... So I thought... read on...


Well yesterday I took it in for its twenty hour service and BAD NEWS. The strut is bent and the seals are cracked. New shaft, new seals are being put in now. This could be a large landing (large as in $1000) to fix. I asked them to put in a depthfinder as I do not currently have the confidence to do the purchase and installation myself at this point. (I should have had this with the boat originally - live and learn) Yes I know they will gouge me a little for the depthfinder but what is a mere mortal to do? It was being installed today and is probably done by now.

The moral of the story is... hit a stump, bend everything and pay a bunch of money to have it fixed. ouch!!!

Again, live and learn - huh?

Steve