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Mag_Red
08-25-2009, 03:00 PM
Just wanted to see if any one else here would be disappointed to find this on their boat. Boat is a 2004 PS209. (310 hours ) Only time out in the elements is maybe 12-18 week-ends a year. The rest of the time it's kept in a storage building with the cover on. I can tell you I baby my toys, use only recommended products in their care. I don't allow shoes of any kind in the boat and never allow boards or skis to touch the upholstery. You be the judge..............
BTW..........the heads at Mastercraft find this perfectly acceptable:rolleyes: Pics are in this order 1. Left Sun Pad 2. Right Sun Pad 3. Obvious 4. Rear Seat Cushion 5. Right Bow Cushion

Thrall
08-25-2009, 03:07 PM
Mag, I'd say that's complete cr@p! My 96 PS190 doesn't even have any cracks in the vynil.

bcampbe7
08-25-2009, 03:09 PM
Complete BS!

As with Thrall, my 96 PS190 interior looked mint when I sold it with 200+ hours.

So you did contact Mastercraft? What did they say?

pram
08-25-2009, 03:09 PM
that is sad to say the least. Sorry to see that. IMO that is not a normal, nor acceptable, wear life of the seats in a boat.

There are a lot of boats from the early 90's with that many hours on them that the interiors are in a lot better shape.

Tom023
08-25-2009, 03:10 PM
Mag, I wouldn't find that acceptable in a 5 year old boat that has been well cared for. Seems to me MC was replacing skins not only for the pink stains but for the splitting vinyl as well. I got a complete new set for my 2001 but I had to install them. You may hit them back up again and see if they will agree to supply to skins if you take care of installation.

scott023
08-25-2009, 03:11 PM
That shouldn't be happening on a boat that has 310 hours on it, it should be replaced. What did your dealer say?

Mag_Red
08-25-2009, 03:11 PM
Mag, I'd say that's complete cr@p! My 96 PS190 doesn't even have any cracks in the vynil.I couldn't agree more..........but like I said......it was brought to Mastercrafts attention and no skins for me! I've owned 4 boats before this one and None of them did this!!!! I'm actually considering a new boat....getting the itch for a wake boat.......but if I can only get a few years out of the vinyl........I might have to investigate one of those Aire Natiques...............seen a lot of them at Dale Hollow Lake two weeks ago.

Mag_Red
08-25-2009, 03:14 PM
That shouldn't be happening on a boat that has 310 hours on it, it should be replaced. What did your dealer say?
My dealer is no longer here. It was Zane Swank (sp????) that sold me on Mastercraft at the Cincinnati Boat show

M-Funf
08-25-2009, 03:16 PM
Dangit mag, my seats look better than that and it's got 30 years on it...:(

JimN
08-25-2009, 03:16 PM
Just wanted to see if any one else here would be disappointed to find this on their boat. Boat is a 2004 PS209. (310 hours ) Only time out in the elements is maybe 12-18 week-ends a year. The rest of the time it's kept in a storage building with the cover on. I can tell you I baby my toys, use only recommended products in their care. I don't allow shoes of any kind in the boat and never allow boards or skis to touch the upholstery. You be the judge..............
BTW..........the heads at Mastercraft find this perfectly acceptable:rolleyes: Pics are in this order 1. Left Sun Pad 2. Right Sun Pad 3. Obvious 4. Rear Seat Cushion 5. Right Bow Cushion

One thing I wouldn't allow is kneeling on cushions without putting something down to spread the load over a larger area. Fists, elbows and knees or any other weight over a small area is incredibly hard on seams and material. Without knowing the material, I couldn't say how much stretch it has but it varies widely from manufacturer to manufacturer and within each one's lines. The double-edged sword in this is that if it stretches like a balloon, it'll eventually look like one and if it fits really well when new, the material needs to be cut to resist tearing as much as possible. If it's exposed to direct sunlight, I can't think of a single material that will be unaffected. If they used a different supplier for that year, I would think others are having the same problems. I know they used cheaper vinyl in '99 and it wasn't even close to the quality of what they used before. It's also possible that a manufacturer discontinued some products and sold everyone on the new stuff being better. The backing looks like the type that's spun, not like the jersey backing used in a lot of automotive vinyls.

I know this isn't what you want to see as a reply but sunlight beats the crap out of all plastics and it's hard to keep it from becoming less elastic.

See if you can find out who made the material and I'll check into its characteristics. If it's known to have issues with splitting, I'll forward any info I find to you.

Jimmauburn
08-25-2009, 03:18 PM
Mag I have a 1989 Prostar 190 and I am now replacing the interior this year and it has the origional interior in it. My boat was left outside in the elements for around 6 years unattended and the interior of the boat filled up with water. My interior doesn't have spider cracks like that and it was abused !!

TX.X-30 fan
08-25-2009, 03:19 PM
I couldn't agree more..........but like I said......it was brought to Mastercrafts attention and no skins for me! I've owned 4 boats before this one and None of them did this!!!! I'm actually considering a new boat....getting the itch for a wake boat.......but if I can only get a few years out of the vinyl........I might have to investigate one of those Aire Natiques...............seen a lot of them at Dale Hollow Lake two weeks ago.




Mine is not as severe but is doing the exact same, and as you I have cleaned and taken extreme care with the interior. Never been out of storage except for the lake weekends.

I saw an 04 2 weeks ago that looked just like yours, so ir seems this is an issue with the vinyl from around those years. 60,000 grand and maticulous care I should not have this kind of issue. :mad::mad:



Edit: 04X30

Bouyhead
08-25-2009, 03:19 PM
I couldn't agree more..........but like I said......it was brought to Mastercrafts attention and no skins for me! I've owned 4 boats before this one and None of them did this!!!! I'm actually considering a new boat....getting the itch for a wake boat.......but if I can only get a few years out of the vinyl........I might have to investigate one of those Aire Natiques...............seen a lot of them at Dale Hollow Lake two weeks ago.

Go Mag Red. Nothing hurts more than to take meticulous care of something AND have it fall apart. I love my MC but if i was put in your situation it's bye bye MC.

bcampbe7
08-25-2009, 03:22 PM
One thing I wouldn't allow is kneeling on cushions without putting something down to spread the load over a larger area. Fists, elbows and knees or any other weight over a small area is incredibly hard on seams and material. Without knowing the material, I couldn't say how much stretch it has but it varies widely from manufacturer to manufacturer and within each one's lines. The double-edged sword in this is that if it stretches like a balloon, it'll eventually look like one and if it fits really well when new, the material needs to be cut to resist tearing as much as possible. If it's exposed to direct sunlight, I can't think of a single material that will be unaffected.

I know this isn't what you want to see as a reply but sunlight beats the crap out of all plastics and it's hard to keep it from becoming less elastic.

Agreed, but the vinyl in Mags boat (and those like it) is not the same quality of the past. You pay for quality when you buy a Mastercraft or 'Bu or Natty.

TX.X-30 fan
08-25-2009, 03:24 PM
One thing I wouldn't allow is kneeling on cushions without putting something down to spread the load over a larger area. Fists, elbows and knees or any other weight over a small area is incredibly hard on seams and material. Without knowing the material, I couldn't say how much stretch it has but it varies widely from manufacturer to manufacturer and within each one's lines. The double-edged sword in this is that if it stretches like a balloon, it'll eventually look like one and if it fits really well when new, the material needs to be cut to resist tearing as much as possible. If it's exposed to direct sunlight, I can't think of a single material that will be unaffected.

I know this isn't what you want to see as a reply but sunlight beats the crap out of all plastics and it's hard to keep it from becoming less elastic.





Then its a problem with the foam and vinyl, foam breaking down and causing more stress on the vinyl, either was its neither Mags or my fault and MC should step to the plate!!!

Jim any idea how I don't put weight on a cushion and get to the ski platform to put my board on??

flipper
08-25-2009, 03:27 PM
Sorry to see that Mag. I wouldn't give up on trying to get MC to replace them for you. I'm sure a dealer will chime in here and offer to help

Mag_Red
08-25-2009, 03:27 PM
Agreed, but the vinyl in Mags boat (and those like it) is not the same quality of the past. You pay for quality when you buy a Mastercraft or 'Bu or Natty.Exactly! I looked at all of them before I went with the MC......and it was because of the quality that Zane emphasized went into each and every Mastercraft. Maybe some one with MC will stop in and explain how this is acceptable

ProTour X9
08-25-2009, 03:29 PM
My boat is an 06 X9 with 340 hrs, and the vinyl looks better than that; I'm thinking they must've switched in that time.

TX.X-30 fan
08-25-2009, 03:31 PM
:mad::mad:..................


50924

50925



Can't find the worst cushion pics and now I have new ones on the sundeck.

This boat has 275 hours, seems a bit soon to replace seats.

JimN
08-25-2009, 03:33 PM
Agreed, but the vinyl in Mags boat (and those like it) is not the same quality of the past. You pay for quality when you buy a Mastercraft or 'Bu or Natty.

I understand that but as I posted, it may have been a new product that was supposed to be the new thing and didn't turn out as advertised. That's why I asked for the manufacturer and material info- I have access to details on this stuff because I have an account at a supplier of upholstery supplies and the owner has been in the business from the manufacturing end and now on the wholesale end.

rodltg2
08-25-2009, 03:34 PM
ive seen this before as well , and it seems like the vinyl from those years gets hard and cracks easliy.

id say go nautique! but you know i'm partial to them :D. i have 210 hours on my 08 and 0 probelms to date.




BAN ROD.. Beat you to it Herrald.

JimN
08-25-2009, 03:41 PM
Then its a problem with the foam and vinyl, foam breaking down and causing more stress on the vinyl, either was its neither Mags or my fault and MC should step to the plate!!!

Jim any idea how I don't put weight on a cushion and get to the ski platform to put my board on??

If the foam broke down, you'd be able to feel that it gives more than the surrounding areas when you press on it. If the foam is too soft, this will increase the chance of splitting but normally, that happens along the seams, not across them.

I just called my supplier and will e-mail the photos to him for his opinion.

Kevin@MWMC
08-25-2009, 03:47 PM
I am thinking it really has to do with the year of the boat.

I have a friend who has an '03 X-2 and the seats and sunpad are pretty much shot in the entire boat. It looks like someone took a razor blade and just kept cutting slits in the seats.

I have an '04 X-2 with less than 300 hours on it and my sunpad is starting to crack just like Mag_Red's. Boat is always covered during the week, use babes seat soap and protectant, never allow shoes in the boat, etc. So I am thinking it has to do with the year of the boats.

flipper
08-25-2009, 03:49 PM
ive seen this before as well , and it seems like the vinyl from those years gets hard and cracks easliy.

id say go nautique! but you know i'm partial to them :D. i have 210 hours on my 08 and 0 probelms to date.




BAN ROD.. Beat you to it Herrald.

Who is Herrald? Is he related to Harold?

TX.X-30 fan
08-25-2009, 03:52 PM
I am thinking it really has to do with the year of the boat.

I have a friend who has an '03 X-2 and the seats and sunpad are pretty much shot in the entire boat. It looks like someone took a razor blade and just kept cutting slits in the seats.

I have an '04 X-2 with less than 300 hours on it and my sunpad is starting to crack just like Mag_Red's. Boat is always covered during the week, use babes seat soap and protectant, never allow shoes in the boat, etc. So I am thinking it has to do with the year of the boats.



I believe based on the graphics it was an 03x30 I saw that was like Mags seats.

JimN
08-25-2009, 04:01 PM
As soon as I mentioned '99, he said everyone had problems then because it was the first year everyone went offshore with production of these materials. I'd have to assume oil prices, EPA and other factors caused this because for decades, Miami Rubber Co, Goodyear, DuPont General Rubber and several other companies all made their vinyl in the US and as we all know, it wore like iron. What has apparently happened is that when the top cures, it's less elastic than the deeper layer. Once this cracks, any stretching will leave it with no resistance and it fails. It's possible that the boat manufacturers who didn't see these problems were able to use material produced elsewhere or from different (possibly older) inventory. Could have been a bad batch, too. If the temperature of the equipment used to emboss the surface is wrong, it can cause problems.

I'm not a fan of anyone being made to change their suppliers or manufacturing processes quickly, especially when they don't have enough time to find out what will work as well as what they had been using. It takes years to find this out because it's impossible to simulate all circumstances. The car manufacturers get the same thing when one political party decides that all cars need to be more efficient NOW, which is impossible because the current engine designs have been in the works for several years and need to be tested for reliability and durability.

coz
08-25-2009, 04:06 PM
id say go nautique! but you know i'm partial to them :D. i have 210 hours on my 08 and 0 probelms to date.




BAN ROD.. Beat you to it Herrald.

Damn! if I said that here that would create a 42 page coz bashing thread :eek:

Wazup Rod :D

kkkeating
08-25-2009, 04:13 PM
Earlier this year we replaced our skins in our 2001 X-9. The upholstery shop showed me the thickness of what they were using versus what was in the boat. The boat’s original upholstery was probably 1/3 as thick as what the upholstery shop was putting in. I’ve seen a lot of photo’s of Mastercraft boats during the same timeframe as ours with the same problem.

Mag_Red
08-25-2009, 04:13 PM
I understand that but as I posted, it may have been a new product that was supposed to be the new thing and didn't turn out as advertised. That's why I asked for the manufacturer and material info- I have access to details on this stuff because I have an account at a supplier of upholstery supplies and the owner has been in the business from the manufacturing end and now on the wholesale end.Should that be my problem then???? I've learned to live with the issues regarding my trailer brakes.............but this, IMHO, is not acceptable!

Mag_Red
08-25-2009, 04:19 PM
Earlier this year we replaced our skins in our 2001 X-9. The upholstery shop showed me the thickness of what they were using versus what was in the boat. The boat’s original upholstery was probably 1/3 as thick as what the upholstery shop was putting in. I’ve seen a lot of photo’s of Mastercraft boats during the same timeframe as ours with the same problem.what did that cost you if I may ask??? I know the field vinyl is a lot thinner than the material used for the accent colors

kkkeating
08-25-2009, 04:38 PM
To do the entire boat would have cost $4,150.00. We only replaced what was cracking which was the two rear sun pads, rear seat, rear seat backrest, rear seat armrests and bow seat cushions (front, port and starboard). The cost to do that was $2,200.00. Was quoted half that much from other vendors but when I saw their lack of quality I decided to go with someone whose work I trusted.

peason
08-25-2009, 04:58 PM
I would like to know the cost as well. My 2001 - 209 has the same problems as Mags - only worse - especially the back seat. I may not take immaculate care of the boat, but it is always covered and we keep it clean. It gets used - heck its a boat!

Hoosier Bob
08-25-2009, 05:10 PM
I heard this happened in a few boats where the wrong engine was also shipped. Better check to see if you got the engine package you ordered! Hard to believe my 93 interior is still very nice. A couple seams on the Timer/Judge seat are showing some wear however.:o

russlars
08-25-2009, 05:15 PM
As soon as I mentioned '99, he said everyone had problems then because it was the first year everyone went offshore with production of these materials. I'd have to assume oil prices, EPA and other factors caused this because for decades, Miami Rubber Co, Goodyear, DuPont General Rubber and several other companies all made their vinyl in the US and as we all know, it wore like iron. What has apparently happened is that when the top cures, it's less elastic than the deeper layer. Once this cracks, any stretching will leave it with no resistance and it fails. It's possible that the boat manufacturers who didn't see these problems were able to use material produced elsewhere or from different (possibly older) inventory. Could have been a bad batch, too. If the temperature of the equipment used to emboss the surface is wrong, it can cause problems.

I'm not a fan of anyone being made to change their suppliers or manufacturing processes quickly, especially when they don't have enough time to find out what will work as well as what they had been using. It takes years to find this out because it's impossible to simulate all circumstances. The car manufacturers get the same thing when one political party decides that all cars need to be more efficient NOW, which is impossible because the current engine designs have been in the works for several years and need to be tested for reliability and durability.
Interesting that you would mention that about a '99. My 205 gets a lot more time out in the sun than Mags and my interior looks pretty much like new. The material feels soft and somewhat thinner than some of the newer vinyls I have felt, but no cracks or tears like Mag has. I will say that it is covered when not in use and I do live in Washington where our sunlight is usually prefiltered (if you know what I mean).

Mag_Red
08-25-2009, 05:19 PM
I heard this happened in a few boats where the wrong engine was also shipped. Better check to see if you got the engine package you ordered! Hard to believe my 93 interior is still very nice. A couple seams on the Timer/Judge seat are showing some wear however.:o :mad: Don't even get me started about not getting my MCX:D

bcampbe7
08-25-2009, 05:25 PM
Mag, maybe you mentioned this, but have you called Greg Clower at Mastercraft?

Hollywood
08-25-2009, 05:31 PM
Time to taste another flavor...

Ryan
08-25-2009, 05:35 PM
This is all over the 01- 04 boats in paticular. I think it's really a result of the pin-stripe design. Those needles just perforate the vinyl and leave it all the more vulnerable than the 96's called out in comparison.

I fear for the '09- '10 owners with the plaid stitching. I have to imagine the vinyl will look like Mag's in 3-4 yrs.

I don't see how it's acceptable when it's a consequence of desgin.

JimN
08-25-2009, 05:56 PM
Earlier this year we replaced our skins in our 2001 X-9. The upholstery shop showed me the thickness of what they were using versus what was in the boat. The boat’s original upholstery was probably 1/3 as thick as what the upholstery shop was putting in. I’ve seen a lot of photo’s of Mastercraft boats during the same timeframe as ours with the same problem.

Unfortunately, thickness is less of an issue than elasticity. However, the thicker vinyls are often softer and stretch more, although they may not handle abrasion as well.

Rockman
08-25-2009, 05:57 PM
I heard this happened in a few boats where the wrong engine was also shipped. Better check to see if you got the engine package you ordered! Hard to believe my 93 interior is still very nice. A couple seams on the Timer/Judge seat are showing some wear however.:o


:uglyhamme:uglyhamme:uglyhamme

JimN
08-25-2009, 06:01 PM
This is all over the 01- 04 boats in paticular. I think it's really a result of the pin-stripe design. Those needles just perforate the vinyl and leave it all the more vulnerable than the 96's called out in comparison.

I fear for the '09- '10 owners with the plaid stitching. I have to imagine the vinyl will look like Mag's in 3-4 yrs.

I don't see how it's acceptable when it's a consequence of desgin.

The distance from one hole to the next is called the 'pitch' and it can be varied by adjusting the machine but any stitching is a compromise between the material not ripping and the thread not ripping. If the perforations are too close, it's not much different from just cutting the material with a knife and if they're too far apart, the stitching won't give enough when something tries to stretch it and this actually cuts the material. These failures happen along the seam, not like Mag's, which are across the seams.

TX.X-30 fan
08-25-2009, 06:04 PM
Why not backing at the areas that are stitched

JimN
08-25-2009, 06:29 PM
Why not backing at the areas that are stitched

Depends on the type of seam. If you see where two pieces are joined and there's a parallel seam on each side, it does have backing tape but that kind of seam is usually used where the piece breaks over an edge, like the front edge of a cushion. This seam keeps the material from bunching as it's pulled into position along the foam. In a field like Mags cushions where it's a simulated tuck & roll, it has a sheet of foam with its own backing sewn to the top vinyl. Backing it up doesn't do anything about the thread trying to cut the top of the vinyl, though.

It's also a lot more time consuming to add backing and that can actually make the skin stretch less.

TMCNo1
08-25-2009, 06:42 PM
Mag, maybe you mentioned this, but have you called Greg Clower at Mastercraft?


I don't think he is still employee there, IIRC.

JJPhoenix
08-25-2009, 06:42 PM
wow that is crazy!!! i have a 2000 230 maristar is kept in phoenix and endures our sun/heat. Stored with mooring cover, but out in the elements when in use. NOTHING like that. In fact, no cracking whatsoever. That is dissapointing MC doesnt want to do anything about it...obviously you got a bit of lemon relative to upholstery

76S&S
08-25-2009, 07:14 PM
2002 model with the same issue, getting worse by the week.

Oh, and stored covered in an enclosed boathouse.......

SKIBUMM
08-25-2009, 07:37 PM
My 93 from another manufacturer (who shall remain nameless). I have over 1500 hours on it and the only mark on the upholstery is where my boom came down on it the first week I owned it. I spoke to the MC dealer who I know well here and he mentioned those same years as being prone to cracking as well. So MC knows it's an issue out there.

Mag_Red
08-25-2009, 08:26 PM
Here's a nice close up of the sun pad cushion.............................

Warning the following picture is Graphic in nature!!!

JimN
08-25-2009, 08:32 PM
How thick is the foam under that seam? As much as I understand why people like thick foam, this would never happen if it was thinner.

TX.X-30 fan
08-25-2009, 08:39 PM
That vinyl looks thinner than the hair on 210's head.

TX.X-30 fan
08-25-2009, 08:40 PM
Defective, no doubt.

TX.X-30 fan
08-25-2009, 08:40 PM
I now can graphically see where my boats interior is headed.

Hoosier Bob
08-25-2009, 08:43 PM
That'll buff out! Quit your whining! I'd **** if my 93 looked like that! Almost looks like plastic! When did MC begin importing these materials? I think that was aging on the boat on the way over! WOW!;)Here's a nice close up of the sun pad cushion.............................

Warning the following picture is Graphic in nature!!!

Footin
08-25-2009, 08:49 PM
Bob, who have you spoken to?

TX.X-30 fan
08-25-2009, 08:52 PM
Bob, who have you spoken to?





Who is left, I would like a number too.

wheeler
08-25-2009, 08:53 PM
I can say this. I bought a 2004 X-10. every seat cushion that had threads were split, the center sundeck was as pictured in this first thread, both outside sundeck skins were shot.

Everything that had a thread was cracked, or about to. I ordered a complete interior at MY COST, knowing that Mastercraft should be responsible for all of this.

I had a 1993 stars and stripes, when I sold it with 1400 hours on it, the interior was perfect.

I had 1997 with 300+ hours, when I sold it the interior was perfect.

I think the interior quality of the vinyl as well as the cushion material has gone down hill. EVERY picture I looked at of the sun decks of the boats I was looking at purchasing were split!!!

With that said, I mix 303 with Mcquires vinyl cleaner and conditioner 50/50, and have done for many years....so, maybe 100% care and attention may save these new skins for oh.....maybe a year or two :mad:

wheeler
08-25-2009, 08:55 PM
In fact, when I installed the center sundeck on my X-10, i ordered another one to put in the attic......because i can assure you the new one will not last 3 years....TOPS!

brucemac
08-25-2009, 08:55 PM
that's a sad site mag and i'd have to agree appears to be a defect or at very least a poor design and/or bad batch of vinyl. my 03 X-2 only has the pin striping below the swoosh towards the stern on the engine hatch. everything else on the sunpad is flat/smooth. no stitching except for seams on side. some pin striping on seat backs, but nothing you'd stand on or arm rest on. not sure if my sunpad was replaced by PO, but i don't think so. the pin striping on the stern under the swoosh is holding up though. no cracks, or tears. i wouldn't give up on it. i'd also tend to agree with the poster who worries for 09 diamond stitch customers. i would be worried reading this as well. i wish you luck on getting that resolved mag.

wheeler
08-25-2009, 09:05 PM
Based on past experiences it's kinda like the fuel pump issues....if it goes out, YOU fix it.

Mastercraft is not going to replace skins for 02-06 boats due to faulty material....they just move on and try to develop better practices.

With that said, we will all be buying new skins every few years until they stop making your year.....then you are screwed. I believe next years is the last year I can order OEM skins that match, after that I am on my own....

TX.X-30 fan
08-25-2009, 09:11 PM
[QUOTE=wheeler;627725]I can say this. I bought a 2004 X-10. every seat cushion that had threads were split, the center sundeck was as pictured in this first thread, both outside sundeck skins were shot.

Everything that had a thread was cracked, or about to. I ordered a complete interior at MY COST, knowing that Mastercraft should be repsonsible for all of this.





This is beggining to narrow down the defective vinyl. :confused:

brucemac
08-25-2009, 09:12 PM
wheeler, i think it's this year. last winter was last year for my 03 at least. pretty sure.

TX.X-30 fan
08-25-2009, 09:13 PM
Based on past experiences it's kinda like the fuel pump issues....if it goes out, YOU fix it.

Mastercraft is not going to replace skins for 02-06 boats due to faulty material....they just move on and try to develope better practices.

With that said, we will all be buying new skins every few years until they stop making your year.....then you are screwed. I believe next years is the last year I can order OEM skins that match, after that I am on my own....





Good info in your posts, but I would never replace my crappy vinyl with more crappy vinyl.

Mag_Red
08-25-2009, 09:15 PM
Based on past experiences it's kinda like the fuel pump issues....if it goes out, YOU fix it.

Mastercraft is not going to replace skins for 02-06 boats due to faulty material....they just move on and try to develope better practices.

With that said, we will all be buying new skins every few years until they stop making your year.....then you are screwed. I believe next years is the last year I can order OEM skins that match, after that I am on my own....You expect to do this????? I don't figure replacing my interior every 3 years as a part of required maintenance on any boat! I should see what the Natique and Malibu folks think............maybe they are having the same problems over there..................who knows???????:confused:

Mag_Red
08-25-2009, 09:17 PM
wheeler, i think it's this year. last winter was last year for my 03 at least. pretty sure.so you saying they still might have the skins at the factory for my boat??

wheeler
08-25-2009, 09:17 PM
For the 3 rear, 5 center area, and 3 front I am out 2 grand.......for faulty material/threads.

I kept the old ones. Have them in the attic. Who knows, maybe one day I might need them as evidence.....

For the boats that are for sale on Ebay, Craiglist, onlyinboards, boatrader.....find the 02's and up with sundecks and ask the seller to email close-up pics of the center sundeck.....bet 75+% are cracked...;)

wheeler
08-25-2009, 09:19 PM
I was told by my local that I have until next year...after that, they move on and stop allowing orders for replacments.

So, I plan on keeping my boat tip top, and i am extremely anal when it comes to my truck, Harley and MC, so I ordered a complete set.

wheeler
08-25-2009, 09:20 PM
so you saying they still might have the skins at the factory for my boat??

They don't keep them laying around. They take your order and stitch them up and send them to you. ready to fit.....pull, stretch and staple.

Mag_Red
08-25-2009, 09:21 PM
For the 3 rear, 5 center area, and 3 front I am out 2 grand.......for faulty material/threads.

I kept the old ones. Have them in the attic. Who knows, maybe one day I might need them as evidence.....

For the boats that are for sale on Ebay, Craiglist, onlyinboards, boatrader.....find the 02's and up with sundecks and ask the seller to email close-up pics of the center sundeck.....bet 75+% are cracked...;)Actually I saw a '03 X9 with 1000 hrs sell on e-bay this week......his interior looked way better than mine......I should have bid on the boat......http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260462739394&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT

wheeler
08-25-2009, 09:22 PM
I have a buddy that has the #1 of 25 limited 25th anniversary. I found a guy who has complete OEM's for 1993 (10 sets). you get to choose stripe color. We are ordering a few sets for some peeps in our area.

TMCNo1
08-25-2009, 09:27 PM
I have a buddy that has the #1 of 25 limited 25th anniversary. I found a guy who has complete OEM's for 1993 (10 sets). you get to choose stripe color. We are ordering a few sets for some peeps in our area.

Are you in the Arkansas/Oklahoma area?

brucemac
08-25-2009, 09:29 PM
so you saying they still might have the skins at the factory for my boat??

not sure mag, but i remember either jim or mike posting last fall stating that jan/feb 09 was cut-off to order for 03 (at least my boat) and i believe those were complete skins. wheeler would probably know better since it sounds like he's got some experience. ;)

i'd tend to agree with tx-30 though, if it has to be out of pocket, is there something better?

wheeler
08-25-2009, 09:36 PM
Are you in the Arkansas/Oklahoma area?

Yep, ARK...you know Bean. I think he knows you!

wheeler
08-25-2009, 09:38 PM
not sure mag, but i remember either jim or mike posting last fall stating that jan/feb 09 was cut-off to order for 03 (at least my boat) and i believe those were complete skins. wheeler would probably know better since it sounds like he's got some experience. ;)

i'd tend to agree with tx-30 though, if it has to be out of pocket, is there something better?

Here's the deal....if they made YOUR boat for a few years, you could always order skins from the next year. I am sure they did not change that much.

Mine is an '04 and i had until June of next year (so they said)...so, p'eed off da wifey and bit the bullet and bought them all this year anyway :-)

TMCNo1
08-25-2009, 09:40 PM
Yep, ARK...you know Bean. I think he knows you!

Yes sir, Richard is Sherwood's nightmare. When you see him, tell him we said hello.

wheeler
08-25-2009, 09:44 PM
Will do. I'll see him this weekend. Bean is a clean freak....gotta love him. He has a nice spread up on the lake at greer's now...big fun. We have about 10 mc's

wheeler
08-25-2009, 09:45 PM
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c197/Mrkwhlr2/newboat4.jpg

wheeler
08-25-2009, 09:46 PM
If you look real close...this is when i first bought the boat...the sun deck is splitting. i have since replaced the skins.

this is an '04 that only had 190 hours on in....stored INSIDE!

wheeler
08-25-2009, 09:49 PM
Here is my 1997...not a rip, tear, split....nadda!

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c197/Mrkwhlr2/Phoenix098.jpg

JimN
08-25-2009, 09:52 PM
That'll buff out! Quit your whining! I'd **** if my 93 looked like that! Almost looks like plastic! When did MC begin importing these materials? I think that was aging on the boat on the way over! WOW!;)

It's not that MC imported them, the companies that sell them now have them made somewhere other than in the US.

Hoosier Bob
08-25-2009, 09:53 PM
So how do they get it here?:DIt's not that MC imported them, the companies that sell them now have them made somewhere other than in the US.

JimN
08-25-2009, 09:55 PM
That vinyl looks thinner than the hair on 210's head.

As only you would know.:D

JimN
08-25-2009, 10:01 PM
So how do they get here?:D

Flying saucer.

They ship it in, like just about everything else we buy. We can't use good car paint because the EPA says so, we can't make things the way they should be made because someone thinks a little bird will be affected and because some effin' politician wants to be a lobbyist after sucking our wallets dry for their whole career, so they work some deal with a foreign country to make them a preferred trading partner.

Re: car paint- Lockheed and Boeing use spray booths that cost well over a million dollars and use whatever paint they want, with fumes and particulates collected with a curtain of water, which is then filtered. Why they can't use solvent-based paint for cars, I don't know- maybe it's because what Lockheed and Boeing are painting is military aircraft parts. Sure would make cars last a lot longer but then, the automakers would sell less cars.

SkiDog
08-25-2009, 10:02 PM
That vinyl looks thinner than the hair on 210's head.

Or thinner than UMP's skin tonight!:D:D

g-Dog
08-25-2009, 10:10 PM
My 2002 205V is starting to do the same thing on the engine cover. There is also an indentation near the pylon that was there from the PO. Any suggestions on how to fix it? I'm guessing some internal bracing broke or bent or something.

Monte
08-25-2009, 10:17 PM
My question is this, has MC done anything to date to address the problem on current boats and those yet to be built? Mag, I would be upset in your situation.

mallees
08-25-2009, 10:18 PM
I have the same problem with my 04 X2. I have always kept it covered, we would use it during the day make sure it was dry then put the cover on at night. At the end of each weekend it was washed and then had 303 applied. Back in Feb of 08 my vinyl started to go pink, I tried everything that was suggested by Mastercraft and people both here and from Mymastercraft.com to no avail. The only thing that helped was leaving it in the sun. So we stopped putting the cover on until the end of our season, which was about the end of April (Aussie season) Now my vinyl is hard, cracked and discolored, and MasterCraft didn't want to know

wheeler
08-25-2009, 10:22 PM
It seems that the "newer" boats have a rougher feel, and also a more compact/harder type foam (I assume this to eliminate flexiblility and movements which may rip the threads).

The Vinyl on the new boats also seem thicker.

my 1997 had a lot better vinyl than my 2004, it was harder, thicker and...well...*cough* lasted a hella lot longer!!!!!

Hoosier Bob
08-25-2009, 10:22 PM
That was AWESOME!:D:DFlying saucer.

They ship it in, like just about everything else we buy. We can't use good car paint because the EPA says so, we can't make things the way they should be made because someone thinks a little bird will be affected and because some effin' politician wants to be a lobbyist after sucking our wallets dry for their whole career, so they work some deal with a foreign country to make them a preferred trading partner.

Re: car paint- Lockheed and Boeing use spray booths that cost well over a million dollars and use whatever paint they want, with fumes and particulates collected with a curtain of water, which is then filtered. Why they can't use solvent-based paint for cars, I don't know- maybe it's because what Lockheed and Boeing are painting is military aircraft parts. Sure would make cars last a lot longer but then, the automakers would sell less cars.

TX.X-30 fan
08-25-2009, 10:27 PM
As only you would know.:D

My wife is the one that thinks that bald head is sexy not me. :mad:

JimN
08-25-2009, 10:31 PM
My wife is the one that thinks that bald head is sexy not me. :mad:

I bet you like it when you're liquored up.

JimN
08-25-2009, 10:33 PM
I got a reply from the supplier and he wants to know if Armor All was used on the vinyl.

P-hat_in_Cincy
08-25-2009, 10:34 PM
I can't validate, but this thread on WW says that aerosol sun block is bad for vinyl. I've never had (and won't allow) it on our boat. About 25% of it goes on the person, the other 75% goes on everything else.

http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/729095.html?1251243857

TX.X-30 fan
08-25-2009, 10:35 PM
I bet you like it when you're liquored up.




I am officially offended. :(



Malles that is nasty.

Mag_Red
08-25-2009, 11:09 PM
I got a reply from the supplier and he wants to know if Armor All was used on the vinyl.I don't even own that crap! Mostly would just run a damp towel over the interior

TX.X-30 fan
08-25-2009, 11:13 PM
I got a reply from the supplier and he wants to know if Armor All was used on the vinyl.

Babes, mcguires and 303 on mine.

wheeler
08-25-2009, 11:21 PM
Babes, mcguires and 303 on mine.

Exactly....

sand2snow22
08-26-2009, 01:52 AM
I can't validate, but this thread on WW says that aerosol sun block is bad for vinyl. I've never had (and won't allow) it on our boat. About 25% of it goes on the person, the other 75% goes on everything else.

http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/3183/729095.html?1251243857

It also puts nasty pits in the gelcoat. Found out the hard way. No longer allowed.

6ballsisall
08-26-2009, 02:04 AM
I've owned 4 MC's now and been on a ton of them of all ages. One thing I've noticed is the vinyl in the new boats feels alot thinner than the vinyl they used on the 90's model boats.

FWIW both my 95 PS190 and now my 94 PS205 have impeccable vinyl on them and they are original.

sand2snow22
08-26-2009, 02:05 AM
Mag, that vinyl looks thin.

That 2004 boat looks terrible. If yours started going bad last year, I'm gonna have to sell my 2005 this year before it starts going bad.

bigmac
08-26-2009, 08:57 AM
I haven't seen the vinyl cracking on my 2004 yet. It spends the summer in a boat lift under a canopy...no cover...winters with a cockpit cover and tonneau in a storage shed.

Now, I'll be watching more closely.

This kind of sucks. One hates to have an expensive product that is defective, but when we spend this kind of money and get no backup, not even a conversation, from the mfgr...that's troubling.

Unfortunatley, after years of upscale I/O's, I've become an inboard towboat devotee. Fortunately, it doesn't have to be a MasterCraft since now virtually all of the other signficant brands are represented locally.

Unfortunately, other tow boat forums also indicate that vinyl problems in the 2002-2006 model year ranges are more common than they used to be.

JohnE
08-26-2009, 09:28 AM
Damn Mags missed this last night. This would be unacceptable. But it's a tough position to be in for a mfg. The product they thought was the best turned out less than what they expected. And I'm sure the vinyl mfg isn't going to warranty it. Say you painted a couple hundred houses with some bad paint. A few years later the customers all want it scraped and repainted. You couldn't possibly warranty that I imagine.

Don't get me wrong, I'd be really freaking po'd. But I don't know how they could absorb new skins on roughly 9000 boats from the bad few years. (Hopefully it is only a few years....I guess time will tell) Maybe they could at least take care of original owners??? I dunno.

Bouyhead
08-26-2009, 09:34 AM
Maybe if we see the economy recover and MC starts pumping out the 300 these guys can get a little help.

TX.X-30 fan
08-26-2009, 09:49 AM
Damn Mags missed this last night. This would be unacceptable. But it's a tough position to be in for a mfg. The product they thought was the best turned out less than what they expected. And I'm sure the vinyl mfg isn't going to warranty it. Say you painted a couple hundred houses with some bad paint. A few years later the customers all want it scraped and repainted. You couldn't possibly warranty that I imagine.

Don't get me wrong, I'd be really freaking po'd. But I don't know how they could absorb new skins on roughly 9000 boats from the bad few years. (Hopefully it is only a few years....I guess time will tell) Maybe they could at least take care of original owners??? I dunno.




Determine what is wrong would be a good place to start.


I have had LP warranty bad t1-11 and sherwin williams warranty bad paint..... Jus Sayin.

JimN
08-26-2009, 09:53 AM
Again, thin vinyl doesn't mean bad vinyl and the kind that was available before '99 isn't available now. My price list for Naugahyde ranges from about $32/yard to almost $60/yard and cutting for minimal waste means most of the pieces won't be oriented correctly in terms of the direction that allows it to stretch without causing problems. My guess is that these boats have around 20-25 yards, so I doubt MC is happy about any problems with the vinyl they bought. I would bet they have had some volatile conversations with some of their suppliers.

wheeler
08-26-2009, 10:00 AM
Well, here's a thought.

They obviously can still make my skins for my 04 X-10 based on the patterns that they have.

Patterns are the key, not the material...

So, why would they not offer sending me a complete set in a "newer" vinyl.

Admitting the problem would be the first step from M/C, fixing it or even giving a break on prices would be the second step. It's not like most of us are newbies. We have owned prior M/C's with better interior.

Vinyl going bad in 2 years is totally unacceptable, no matter if it's a Bayliner, Malibu, Nautique...whatever.....

I say send in the defective skins as proof, and send me back new ones for free....JMHO:D

JohnE
08-26-2009, 10:25 AM
Determine what is wrong would be a good place to start.


I have had LP warranty bad t1-11 and sherwin williams warranty bad paint..... Jus Sayin.


The issue to me is that LP and SW both make those products. MC doesn't make the vinyl.

Don't get me wrong I wish they would or could do something for everyone.

Who was the vinyl mfg then vs. now?

I see both sides of this argument. If I'm MC, I'm wondering what the owner did wrong in caring for his vinyl. But knowing Mags and yourself I know y'all took care of things properly.

Mag_Red
08-26-2009, 10:28 AM
Throw me a bone Mastercraft.........I know it's still early in the morning ..........but 11 pages in less than a day indicate this isn't an isolated issue. Step in here and offer up something, even if it's advice for others, so they can avoid having this happen to their boats. Don't get me wrong.........I love my boat! I'll put it's fit and finish up against any boat on the market. But one look at my interior is the impression others will take away about the Quality of the Mastercraft product. Remember, your best salesman is a satisfied customer!

Maristar210
08-26-2009, 10:40 AM
Throw me a bone Mastercraft.........I know it's still early in the morning ..........but 11 pages in less than a day indicate this isn't an isolated issue. Step in here and offer up something, even if it's advice for others, so they can avoid having this happen to their boats. Don't get me wrong.........I love my boat! I'll put it's fit and finish up against any boat on the market. But one look at my interior is the impression others will take away about the Quality of the Mastercraft product. Remember, your best salesman is a satisfied customer!

Damn, I thought you were into construction, not used cars :D8p

Mag_Red
08-26-2009, 10:42 AM
Damn, I thought you were into construction, not used cars :D8pActually I'm thinking of getting into the boat upholstery business8p

Monte
08-26-2009, 10:43 AM
Damn, I thought you were into construction, not used cars :D8p

boats 210.. used boats.. or is it new boats we are selling:confused::rolleyes:

wheeler
08-26-2009, 10:55 AM
I say post your pics.

There are "sundeck" M/C boats in the storage area where I store...their rear skins are shot.

I say the more pics and proof we have the better....

JimN
08-26-2009, 11:05 AM
I say post your pics.

There are "sundeck" M/C boats in the storage area where I store...their rear skins are shot.

I say the more pics and proof we have the better....

I don't know what you hope to accomplish by showing every boat with splitting vinyl. If they see this thread, it should make them use different material in the future but with the economy the way it is and in light of the fact that they already had layoffs this year, I wouldn't hold my breath for a free set of skins. If the boat manufacturers were rolling in a sea of money, it would be a different story but that's not the case.

Mag_Red
08-26-2009, 11:15 AM
I don't know what you hope to accomplish by showing every boat with splitting vinyl. If they see this thread, it should make them use different material in the future but with the economy the way it is and in light of the fact that they already had layoffs this year, I wouldn't hold my breath for a free set of skins. If the boat manufacturers were rolling in a sea of money, it would be a different story but that's not the case.Jim, you probably know I'm a Commercial Painting Contractor...........let me tell you a story. I did 1/2 mil of work/ year for a high end custom home builder. We we swimming in jobs 2 years ago...couldn't paint them fast enough............until the economy tanked. Towards the middle of last year all the work stopped!!! Nothing! Well I get a call early this year about a home we painted and there was a complaint about the exterior. Checked the house........nothing really wrong with it, done according to specs, but it was one that was painted in between a lot of rainy days, and there was some streaking. Even knowing that was a slim possibility of doing any homes with them this year, and that I had guys layed off at that point over 4 months ( read.......no income coming in to me ) I took a guy out there with me , paid for the paint out of pocket, and re-painted the exterior...........FREE OF CHARGE! Only because........IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO!

JohnE
08-26-2009, 11:17 AM
Agreed, showing splitting vinyl by the numbers still won't accomplish anything.

I still say MC is the victim here too. Their reputation is damaged by it. They paid or premium vinyl that was sub par. Y'all get that right? Not addressed to you Mag.

east tx skier
08-26-2009, 11:18 AM
Mag, I'm sorry to read this. Having been active on this board, I've seen more threads like this concerning boats from 99 forward than I can recall. I don't consider it to be a "bashing" of the MC brand in the least to say that this is a quality issue that has been, for whatever reason, neglected. I certainly hope they address it and correct it.

My 93 had some splitting on the driver and observer seat when I bought it. But it had been left out and subjected to what, by my standards, I consider to be neglect. Overall, the vinyl that came with the boat and the skins I replaced them with were high quality. I was happy that MC, at that time, still offered replacement skins for my 11 year old boat. Seems now that the window is not nearly so wide.

JohnE
08-26-2009, 11:22 AM
Jim, you probably know I'm a Commercial Painting Contractor...........let me tell you a story. I did 1/2 mil of work/ year for a high end custom home builder. We we swimming in jobs 2 years ago...couldn't paint them fast enough............until the economy tanked. Towards the middle of last year all the work stopped!!! Nothing! Well I get a call early this year about a home we painted and there was a complaint about the exterior. Checked the house........nothing really wrong with it, done according to specs, but it was one that was painted in between a lot of rainy days, and there was some streaking. Even knowing that was a slim possibility of doing any homes with them this year, and that I had guys layed off at that point over 4 months ( read.......no income coming in to me ) I took a guy out there with me , paid for the paint out of pocket, and re-painted the exterior...........FREE OF CHARGE! Only because........IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO!

Bob I think they should give you a new set of skins. But they can't do that for everyone. Just like you can't go repaint every house you did 2 years ago for free.

And did you do that because it was the right thing to do for the customer? Or the right thing to do for a builder that you hopefully will work for again? I would have done the same thing to help my builders. I would not have taken money out of my pocket to cover something out of warranty if I did nothing wrong.

Mag_Red
08-26-2009, 11:28 AM
Bob I think they should give you a new set of skins. But they can't do that for everyone. Just like you can't go repaint every house you did 2 years ago for free.

And did you do that because it was the right thing to do for the customer? Or the right thing to do for a builder that you hopefully will work for again? I would have done the same thing to help my builders. I would not have taken money out of my pocket to cover something out of warranty if I did nothing wrong.Mainly did it because it was the right thing to do.......the house didn't look right. So I did it for the customer, the builder, and for my piece of mind:cool:

peason
08-26-2009, 11:31 AM
Bob I think they should give you a new set of skins. But they can't do that for everyone. Just like you can't go repaint every house you did 2 years ago for free.

And did you do that because it was the right thing to do for the customer? Or the right thing to do for a builder that you hopefully will work for again? I would have done the same thing to help my builders. I would not have taken money out of my pocket to cover something out of warranty if I did nothing wrong.

I agree with giving Bob a new set of skins, but this subject has come up before and I have noted my concerns as well on those threads. From what I can tell, you will need your dealer go to bat for you. I am among the rest of us that will pay to have my vinyl replaced since my concerns were not answered over a year ago. I still really like my MC and I would not trade it off for another boat, but if I ever buy a new boat again, I will make darn sure the vinyl is top notch and also pay more attention to what the warranties cover.

JohnE
08-26-2009, 11:34 AM
Mainly did it because it was the right thing to do.......the house didn't look right. So I did it for the customer, the builder, and for my piece of mind:cool:

You are a good man Bob. I don't think I'd have paid for the paint.

I know who's painting my houses when I relocate to Cincinatti and start building.:D

wheeler
08-26-2009, 11:45 AM
I like my MC as well. I have already paid for a full set of skins out of my pocket because I like my MC.

Posting pics was an idea to get the point across that it's not just a few of us whining about a split here and there...it is a total mishap, either vinyl supplier, or MC craftmanship.

Trouble is, owning a boat in the problematic year sequence is now going to prove to be costly for owners resale, and/or up-keep.

I do have an idea though......the splitting issues are mainly to do with the sundeck and middle rear seat. Both of which are a high traffic area.

Remove that section of vinyl and replace with a solid piece with no stitching.....that is what I plan to do in the future....REAL NEAR FUTURE, and I say that because it won't last long anyway!!!

TX.X-30 fan
08-26-2009, 12:26 PM
Where is 02 lightning when we need him?? :D



Hey BriEOD.................................... 8p

ggroller
08-26-2009, 12:44 PM
Mag,

MC should replace that vinyl at no charge. You paid top dollar for a quality boat and it is falling apart after very little use. That is completely unacceptable. If the problem is in the quality of the vinyl, the right thing for MC to do is let you have a local boat guy replace the skins with a quality vinyl.

I have noticed some things that are not holding up in my '06 PS 197. Granted, they are minor things that I was able to fix but it will influence my decision when I am in the market for a new ski boat.

Also, I used to love the dealer where I bought my boat but have had some bad experiences there too lately. The latest is them charging me $20 for a spare ignition key and $14 to ship it to me. That is absolutely ridiulous.

TX.X-30 fan
08-26-2009, 12:54 PM
From seeing the new boats it looks as if many of the problems have been corrected. Better vinyl, much better foam and a path to get to the swim platform that's not a cushion. I believe the much firmer foam has helped because mine compared to newer boats is not firm at all thus allowing the vinyl to be stretched way too much.


Adjusted for inflation the 60,000 I spent would be roughly 68,000 today, no way my seats should be falling apart for that kind of money and immaculate care.

JimN
08-26-2009, 01:54 PM
Jim, you probably know I'm a Commercial Painting Contractor...........let me tell you a story. I did 1/2 mil of work/ year for a high end custom home builder. We we swimming in jobs 2 years ago...couldn't paint them fast enough............until the economy tanked. Towards the middle of last year all the work stopped!!! Nothing! Well I get a call early this year about a home we painted and there was a complaint about the exterior. Checked the house........nothing really wrong with it, done according to specs, but it was one that was painted in between a lot of rainy days, and there was some streaking. Even knowing that was a slim possibility of doing any homes with them this year, and that I had guys layed off at that point over 4 months ( read.......no income coming in to me ) I took a guy out there with me , paid for the paint out of pocket, and re-painted the exterior...........FREE OF CHARGE! Only because........IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO!

You're preaching to the choir- one difference is that you don't have people in management telling someone down the food chain that free repairs aren't possible. You're probably looking at it as a way to show that you'll back up your work, even though the materials may be at fault and hoping work will come your way because of it, which I would do, too.

I'm going to check into who made the decision to use this material.

JimN
08-26-2009, 01:58 PM
Agreed, showing splitting vinyl by the numbers still won't accomplish anything.

I still say MC is the victim here too. Their reputation is damaged by it. They paid or premium vinyl that was sub par. Y'all get that right? Not addressed to you Mag.

Jury's still out on what they paid for and why. I doubt MC will respond here, which is OK because if it will be addressed by them, it should be through contact with the affected boat owners.

JimN
08-26-2009, 02:24 PM
Here's the reply I got from my supplier, whose experience prior to buying the supply company was in upholstery materials manufacturing (his dad worked for the same company for about 30 years, too):

" In 2002-on, boat manufacturers were trying to cut costs in all areas because boat purchases had dropped off. It's even worse now... Many have gone out of business.

Regardless, soap and water is the best thing to clean vinyl. Armor-All is crap, 303 isn't bad, but it isn't great either.

Pink stains are indicative of poor (or no) anti-microbial/anti-bacterial treatments in the vinyl. Even if you clean it (bleach preferably), it will never be the same... Unless it wasn't bad to begin with. (Note: Diluted bleach should be used, not straight from the bottle. 4 parts water to 1 part bleach)

To give you an idea on the quality of the vinyl, here's a perspective for you. We can get that same vinyl and sell it. Your wholesale cost would be around half of what it costs for the Ports O'Call marine line of material.

What's the difference:

Weight: OEM Marine vinyl is typically a 24-26 oz./yd material, Aftermarket material is 30 oz.

Backing: OEM Marine vinyl typically (not always) uses a non-woven (Fuzzy) backing. It's a cheaper alternative to the woven backings. Aftermarket material (ours) uses a patented Hi-Flexx backing which is the strongest, yet stretchiest backing on the market. We've seen what happens to a weak backing.

Anti-Microbial/Anti-Bacterial: This is a treatment you can't see. A lot of times in cheap vinyl it is omitted to save money unbeknownst to the purchaser of the material (the boat builder). I don't blame the boat manufacturers.

Thickness: This goes with weight, it is run thinner to save on raw materials. This cheapens the vinyl considerably."

ntidsl
08-26-2009, 03:49 PM
It is a major bummer. But that's why mfrs put a time deadline on their warranty. My dads tractor blew an engine its 6 years old...you think he'd going to get a new engine at no cost. I cannot belive that the vinyl would wear like that after 5 years. I hope my 05 doesnt do that same thing. My vinyl sure feesl alot thicker than that but if it does happen it would be my last MC is it happened within the new 5 years. I baby my boat as well. Sorry about the problem Mag but as Jim says I wouldnt hold my breath. I bet you could do a good trade with a vinyl guy for a paint job and get the new skins for free. By the way I do lighting design all over the country and caribbean if anyone needs lighting design...I'm always up for trading!

JimN
08-26-2009, 04:02 PM
It is a major bummer. But that's why mfrs put a time deadline on their warranty. My dads tractor blew an engine its 6 years old...you think he'd going to get a new engine at no cost. I cannot belive that the vinyl would wear like that after 5 years. I hope my 05 doesnt do that same thing. My vinyl sure feesl alot thicker than that but if it does happen it would be my last MC is it happened within the new 5 years. I baby my boat as well. Sorry about the problem Mag but as Jim says I wouldnt hold my breath. I bet you could do a good trade with a vinyl guy for a paint job and get the new skins for free. By the way I do lighting design all over the country and caribbean if anyone needs lighting design...I'm always up for trading!

Why would anyone expect a new engine after 6 years? It's not a new car with a 10 year 100K Mile warranty.

If you don't buy another MC, would you buy another brand with the same kind of material? I don't see what that would accomplish.

If you spec'd and installed a million dollars worth of lighting supplies and it turned out that they had a problem that shows up a few years later, what would you do?

ntidsl
08-26-2009, 04:25 PM
The manufacturer would be help responsible. If they had a 5 year warranty I would suppose they would maybe do their best to alleviate the situation. I am just a designer, not an installer, not a mfr. But yes there was a situation that comes to mind about 8 or 9 years ago a mfr hjad alot fo troubles with sockets going bad after 3-4 years and if the installer presented the lights within the 5 year warranty they would replace it at no charge. Within warranty though...what is the warranty on the vinyl? I don't know, thats why I'm asking.

And further on your question...I stopped specifying their lights immediately and found a better line of spot lights.

JimN
08-26-2009, 04:44 PM
The manufacturer would be help responsible. If they had a 5 year warranty I would suppose they would maybe do their best to alleviate the situation. I am just a designer, not an installer, not a mfr. But yes there was a situation that comes to mind about 8 or 9 years ago a mfr hjad alot fo troubles with sockets going bad after 3-4 years and if the installer presented the lights within the 5 year warranty they would replace it at no charge. Within warranty though...what is the warranty on the vinyl? I don't know, thats why I'm asking.

And further on your question...I stopped specifying their lights immediately and found a better line of spot lights.

So basically, MC should stop using this vinyl (if they haven't already) but the vinyl manufacturer should be held liable, right?

Situations like this make it hard to point fingers- we don't know who described it as what, who decided to use it or whether the use was as intended by the manufacturer. I doubt the vinyl has more than a year warranty but I think MC puts three years on it.

ntidsl
08-26-2009, 04:53 PM
I agree 100% with you...but since you thre me under the bus...what would you expect and wht would you do?

I'm saying I would bring it up to MC but if they said no way I would fix it myself, but I would expect my seats to last longer than 5 years so when I was ready for a new boat I would certainly look elsewhere than MC for my new boat. I'd also ask alot more questions about vinyl.

I hope I never find myself in that situation though.

My parents pontoon boat goes in the water in the spring and out in early December...it has done that since 1999 and only gets covered when we are expecting a full week of rain or something like that. For the first 5 years it occasionally got hosed off and that was it. The last few years I start using it alot more so now I use Babes seat soap on it and 303. the seats get cleaner every week and shine like a showroom. 10 years of sun, wind and rain and not one rip, stretch mark, loose seam...only mildew marks...lol...but soft and supple...

I'm going to find out who makes that vinyl cause its dern good. And the carpet is still original too...crazy!

JimN
08-26-2009, 05:01 PM
I agree 100% with you...but since you thre me under the bus...what would you expect and wht would you do?

I'm saying I would bring it up to MC but if they said no way I would fix it myself, but I would expect my seats to last longer than 5 years so when I was ready for a new boat I would certainly look elsewhere than MC for my new boat. I'd also ask alot more questions about vinyl.

I hope I never find myself in that situation though.

My parents pontoon boat goes in the water in the spring and out in early December...it has done that since 1999 and only gets covered when we are expecting a full week of rain or something like that. For the first 5 years it occasionally got hosed off and that was it. The last few years I start using it alot more so now I use Babes seat soap on it and 303. the seats get cleaner every week and shine like a showroom. 10 years of sun, wind and rain and not one rip, stretch mark, loose seam...only mildew marks...lol...but soft and supple...

I'm going to find out who makes that vinyl cause its dern good. And the carpet is still original too...crazy!

I didn't know I threw you under the bus. Sorry.

My supplier sells Ports O'Call marine vinyl and it's similar to what was used before, but it's not cheap. Look on the back of an edge- if it has backing that looks like a thin T shirt, it's the good stuff. As I said, some of the material I can get goes for close to $60/yd and at the bottom end, it's closer to $14/yd. I looked at my Naugahyde samples and it stretches a lot, in more than one direction. Not cheap, though.

ntidsl
08-26-2009, 05:03 PM
no worries...I'm just amazed at my parents tooner though...they are not manics abouyt cleanliness like I am and they 10 year old vinyl looks perfect...weird!

Mag_Red
08-26-2009, 06:07 PM
no worries...I'm just amazed at my parents tooner though...they are not manics abouyt cleanliness like I am and they 10 year old vinyl looks perfect...weird!That's what I was hoping for..........at least 10 years..............all my other boats held up fine.

wheeler
08-26-2009, 06:21 PM
Now that is what bothers me the most....

I sold a 1997 to "upgrade" to a 2004, only to find out that my interior is crap, will always be crap, and the new interior that I just purchased to replace the crap interior is probably crap as well.....

NICE!

russlars
08-26-2009, 07:09 PM
I had an experience with another boat manufacturer several years ago that I think represented what should be done in this case. I purchased a 3 year old Reinell I/O with 37 hours on it. I used it for 2 years and ran it up to about 100 hours. I had a small spot on the bottom of the boat about the size of a 50 cent piece that chipped away. Didn't remember ever hitting anything but took it to a fiberglass shop and had it repaired. A few months later it chipped again. Took it back to the shop for another repair. Awhile later it chipped again and the repairman told me that he thought there was a stringer loose in the hull allowing it to flex too much. I called the manufacturer directly and since I live only 3 hours away they said to bring it in for them to look at. After inspecting it he confirmed that it had a loose stringer and asked if I had ever hit anthing with it and I told him no. He said that the hull had a 5 year warranty to the original owner but even though I was the second owner they still felt responsible for their product because it had their name on it. Then he said something that to this day I still can't believe. He said: "you know we could tear this boat apart and repair it, but what we would rather do is just build you a new boat!" I left the boat there and it took them about 3 weeks to build a new hull and they took all of the seats/engine, etc. out of my boat and installed in the new hull. I was one happy customer and I have since told many people about the way I was treated. When I was ready to move up to an inboard I looked real hard at Centurions (which are also made by the same company) because of the way they took care of me when they didn't have to. I bought my used MC because I have always thought that they were the best inboard on the market but after hearing about this issue and the way MC is not treating their customers I may consider looking elsewhere for my next purchase.:twocents:

JimN
08-26-2009, 07:21 PM
no worries...I'm just amazed at my parents tooner though...they are not manics abouyt cleanliness like I am and they 10 year old vinyl looks perfect...weird!

Pontoon boats are a helluva lot cheaper to make and the manufacturers make a lot more profit on them, so they can afford to spend more on the vinyl. Not much technology going on with one of those.

JimN
08-26-2009, 07:21 PM
Now that is what bothers me the most....

I sold a 1997 to "upgrade" to a 2004, only to find out that my interior is crap, will always be crap, and the new interior that I just purchased to replace the crap interior is probably crap as well.....

NICE!

How is the rest of the boat?

Hoosier Bob
08-26-2009, 08:18 PM
There is a guy on here that is from a long family owned and operated manufacturing line of inboard propellors. My guess is if I bought one of his props and in a year or two or four the blades fell off he would at the very least want to see it! Just sayin'!;)

This being said if all the blades fell off all props manufactured from 2000-2004 he would want to do whatever it took within reason. I would also guess he would not say, "Hey Hoosier you are in luck! I have a couple leftover pos 2002 props with the same issues that I can send you at cost!:D

This would not be a warranty issue but a recall issue.;)

brucemac
08-26-2009, 09:06 PM
There is a guy on here that is from a long family owned and operated manufacturing line of inboard propellors. My guess is if I bought one of his props and in a year or two or four the blades fell off he would at the very least want to see it! Just sayin'!;)

This being said if all the blades fell off all props manufactured from 2000-2004 he would want to do whatever it took within reason. I would also guess he would not say, "Hey Hoosier you are in luck! I have a couple leftover pos 2002 props with the same issues that I can send you at cost!:D

This would not be a warranty issue but a recall issue.;)


and he'd probably he'd even throw in some free t-shirts. that guy is way cool.

Hoosier Bob
08-26-2009, 09:23 PM
Who?:D He has T-Shirts?:mad:and he'd probably he'd even throw in some free t-shirts. that guy is way cool.

wheeler
08-26-2009, 09:40 PM
How is the rest of the boat?
You got me........

Everything else about this boat is perfect. Would not even consider purchasing another.

Fuel pump issues and vinyl has been their only major downfall at this point for me.

JimN
08-26-2009, 09:46 PM
You got me........

Everything else about this boat is perfect. Would not even consider purchasing another.

Fuel pump issues and vinyl has been their only major downfall at this point for me.

And they're both made by a different company, with MC being their customer. As I posted before, I wouldn't want to be the one who made the decision to use a product that has proven to be such a big problem.

wheeler
08-26-2009, 09:52 PM
I was the second owner of my 1997. Purchased it with 18 hours on it. Put gas in it. Changed the oil. That's it.

My 2004. That is a different story. I think over the years MC has been more about the dollar than about quality. Quantity over quality. Sad but true IMO!!!

Back in the day we were looking at 3,4 maybe 4 models. Now what...... X2,x10,x15,x30,x35, x -whatever.....ps190,195,205,209,214. They are competing with the openbow bayliner, put a tower on it market. Gone is quality, hello quantity! Money, money, money!!!

wheeler
08-26-2009, 09:56 PM
But I would buy a new MC tomorrow over any boat because of the great enjoyment and performance I have experienced.

bigmac
08-26-2009, 10:00 PM
And they're both made by a different company, with MC being their customer. As I posted before, I wouldn't want to be the one who made the decision to use a product that has proven to be such a big problem.

That would be Alan for the fuel pump fiasco, wouldn't it?

JimN
08-26-2009, 10:06 PM
I was the second owner of my 1997. Purchased it with 18 hours on it. Put gas in it. Changed the oil. That's it.

My 2004. That is a different story. I think over the years MC has been more about the dollar than about quality. Quantity over quality. Sad but true IMO!!!

Back in the day we were looking at 3,4 maybe 4 models. Now what...... X2,x10,x15,x30,x35, x -whatever.....ps190,195,205,209,214. They are competing with the openbow bayliner, put a tower on it market. Gone is quality, hello quantity! Money, money, money!!!

Money, or survival and market share? If they used only the very best, people would biatch about the high price more than they do now.

JimN
08-26-2009, 10:10 PM
That would be Alan for the fuel pump fiasco, wouldn't it?

Not necessarily. He set up the system but it's possible that someone changed the actual pump used in the production boats. There's no way he would spec a pump that he knew to be as touchy and we talked about this system before it came out. He didn't have these problems and I would bet that he used bad gas and all of the other possible scenarios to cause failures. The testing couldn't be called 'complete' without doing that, IMO. If it's not tested in real world situations, it would be pointless. He has way too much integrity to do that. Also, if he pulled something like that, I doubt he would be working on government projects now and they're real sticklers for that on the kinds of projects he works on.

erkoehler
08-26-2009, 10:42 PM
I was the second owner of my 1997. Purchased it with 18 hours on it. Put gas in it. Changed the oil. That's it.

My 2004. That is a different story. I think over the years MC has been more about the dollar than about quality. Quantity over quality. Sad but true IMO!!!

Back in the day we were looking at 3,4 maybe 4 models. Now what...... X2,x10,x15,x30,x35, x -whatever.....ps190,195,205,209,214. They are competing with the openbow bayliner, put a tower on it market. Gone is quality, hello quantity! Money, money, money!!!

Have to make all those models to compete in todays tow boat market. There are people out there that want to buy an x-80 to have twin engines/yacht certification/big water capability, some buyers want a trailerable rough water wake boat with a bathroom on their boat thus the x-55, other people want to bring 17 friends with them on the x-45, others want a x-35 to have a sink and fridge, even more want the versatility of the x15 to ski/surf/board, the x2 is great because it is an awesome all around boat that fits in the garage, the x1 is a great entry level boat that can pull Dad in the slalom course and then put out a wake to board off of that pro's love, even more people want want to have the best wakeboard boat on the market in the xstar, new to the line is the x-14V/X-14 to have a killer crossover boat, and finally you have the x-30 for the people looking for a 23' foot with a traditional look!

Shall we talk about the ProStar line?


P.S. Sorry for the run-on!

sand2snow22
08-26-2009, 10:59 PM
Shall we talk about the ProStar line?



If you have time! That was pretty good.....

erkoehler
08-26-2009, 11:05 PM
If you have time! That was pretty good.....

OK:

ProStar 190 is a boat that is produced for the hard core slalom guru take it to the course and be the best, ProStar 197 is made for the ProStar 190 guy that now has a family and he needs an open bow, ProStar 214 is a boat designed to give you that great slalom wake of the 190/197 with the ability to carry more crew and handle a bit rougher water, ProStar 214V was made when you really want to utilize full wrap around seating with a great slalom/surf/boarding wake plus you can still hit the course!

bigmac
08-26-2009, 11:37 PM
Not necessarily. He set up the system but it's possible that someone changed the actual pump used in the production boats. There's no way he would spec a pump that he knew to be as touchy and we talked about this system before it came out. He didn't have these problems and I would bet that he used bad gas and all of the other possible scenarios to cause failures. The testing couldn't be called 'complete' without doing that, IMO. If it's not tested in real world situations, it would be pointless. He has way too much integrity to do that. Also, if he pulled something like that, I doubt he would be working on government projects now and they're real sticklers for that on the kinds of projects he works on.No offense meant to Allen, but I'm not sure whether the fuel pump problem is bad design or bad parts. Neither would have anything to do with his integrity.


/

sand2snow22
08-27-2009, 12:01 AM
OK:

ProStar 190 is a boat that is produced for the hard core slalom guru take it to the course and be the best, ProStar 197 is made for the ProStar 190 guy that now has a family and he needs an open bow, ProStar 214 is a boat designed to give you that great slalom wake of the 190/197 with the ability to carry more crew and handle a bit rougher water, ProStar 214V was made when you really want to utilize full wrap around seating with a great slalom/surf/boarding wake plus you can still hit the course!

They should hire you to do some marketing :)

Grover777
08-27-2009, 12:03 AM
Mag:

My 2001 209 sundeck looks just like yours. Last year it had a few seam spits, but now this year, they are splitting everywhere on the sundeck. The drivers seat cushion also is splitting.

The other skins are looking good, but I am now wondering for how much longer....

JimN
08-27-2009, 12:08 AM
No offense meant to Allen, but I'm not sure whether the fuel pump problem is bad design or bad parts. Neither would have anything to do with his integrity.


/

It would if he knew it wasn't going to work and he made them put it in production anyway. I'd like to know if/how the tank has changed since the prototypes, too. That alone could be a big factor.

JimN
08-27-2009, 12:10 AM
OK:

ProStar 190 is a boat that is produced for the hard core slalom guru take it to the course and be the best, ProStar 197 is made for the ProStar 190 guy that now has a family and he needs an open bow, ProStar 214 is a boat designed to give you that great slalom wake of the 190/197 with the ability to carry more crew and handle a bit rougher water, ProStar 214V was made when you really want to utilize full wrap around seating with a great slalom/surf/boarding wake plus you can still hit the course!

And the tricky part is trying to guess how many of each will be sold, in order to come up with an annual budget/production schedule.

Dig out the Magic 8 Ball.

wheeler
08-27-2009, 08:45 AM
Ok, back to the skins. We have now determined that we have problems with either the grade of vinyl, or the stiching for the boats that were put out around 2002 til ???? Now we need to figure out a solution that will help prolonge the the life of the interior or find a manufacturer that has a better replacement, color matching material to use when we DO replace it. As stated before, I have already purchasd all new skins so I may be good for another 3-5 years. Not acceptable, but it will slow the bleeding....

I am leaning towards removing the 3 sundeck pads and having stiffer harder foam installed and a constant clean/protect with 303/Mcquires Cleaner & Conditioner that I have been using.

ntidsl
08-27-2009, 09:05 AM
Well...lets think big picture though...how many people have a 04 prostar series boat with no problems...I tend to think something happened here and if we put our heads together we may all learn how to get our upholstery in one piece.

I have an 05 with vinyl looks brand new...i use babes seat soap once or twice a year, 303 3-4 times a year and wipre them down with a clean microfiber rag the whole time I am idling...I'm one of those guys that doesnt sit and relax real well. Never use spray sunscreen, actually sorry dont use sunscreen, but my wife and son do alot but coppertone products...we always sit on towels though...what else...never get in my boat in below freezing temps to clean or anything...I'm sure vinyl freezes and can crack...ummm...We dont stand on the seats...i cannot think of anything else...

now if we all chime in including those with bad seat maybe we can find out what makes the vinyl go bad...

bigmac
08-27-2009, 09:47 AM
I was out skiing this morning - using my buddy's 2004 X-10. I noted that he has a few splits in his vinyl at the seams. Not as extensive as in some of the photos here, but identical in configuration.

ggroller
08-27-2009, 09:51 AM
Well...lets think big picture though...how many people have a 04 prostar series boat with no problems...I tend to think something happened here and if we put our heads together we may all learn how to get our upholstery in one piece.

I have an 05 with vinyl looks brand new...i use babes seat soap once or twice a year, 303 3-4 times a year and wipre them down with a clean microfiber rag the whole time I am idling...I'm one of those guys that doesnt sit and relax real well. Never use spray sunscreen, actually sorry dont use sunscreen, but my wife and son do alot but coppertone products...we always sit on towels though...what else...never get in my boat in below freezing temps to clean or anything...I'm sure vinyl freezes and can crack...ummm...We dont stand on the seats...i cannot think of anything else...

now if we all chime in including those with bad seat maybe we can find out what makes the vinyl go bad...

Yikes. Do you have plastic over all the furniture in your house too?

TMCNo1
08-27-2009, 10:11 AM
Yikes. Do you have plastic over all the furniture in your house too?


Let's not forget the steering wheel condoms!
51016

ntidsl
08-27-2009, 10:15 AM
LOL...my wife wont let me get plastic on the couches so we got leather...lol...I just don't relax...I got myself a kayak so when people want to tie up and hang out and drink, I can now just kayak away. I usually wipe the boat down first then kayak away.

EarlyriserX9
08-27-2009, 10:31 AM
Ok, back to the skins. We have now determined that we have problems with either the grade of vinyl, or the stiching for the boats that were put out around 2002 til ???? Now we need to figure out a solution that will help prolonge the the life of the interior or find a manufacturer that has a better replacement, color matching material to use when we DO replace it. As stated before, I have already purchasd all new skins so I may be good for another 3-5 years. Not acceptable, but it will slow the bleeding....

I am leaning towards removing the 3 sundeck pads and having stiffer harder foam installed and a constant clean/protect with 303/Mcquires Cleaner & Conditioner that I have been using.

I have an 03' X-9 with 300 hours that is babied just like yours. I only use Krazy Klean and 303 on all the interior. My buddies have 05's (one X7 and one X9) and the upholstery is much thicker. I have the bad seams in my boat, but only bad on the back bench seat. This is probably because it is usually only 4 or 5 of us and the bow is usually open. I wipe the boat down continuously on and off the water. I think Mastercraft went with an inferior product for these few years. Let me know if anyone has any luck with this. I refuse to get another boat, as in my opinion the X-9 is the best crossover boat for me and they don't make them anymore. I can live with the imperfection for now, but in 3 or 4 years who knows how bad its going to get.

bigmac
08-27-2009, 10:37 AM
I have an 03' X-9 with 300 hours that is babied just like yours. I only use Krazy Klean and 303 on all the interior. My buddies have 05's (one X7 and one X9) and the upholstery is much thicker. I have the bad seams in my boat, but only bad on the back bench seat. This is probably because it is usually only 4 or 5 of us and the bow is usually open. I wipe the boat down continuously on and off the water. I think Mastercraft went with an inferior product for these few years. Let me know if anyone has any luck with this. I refuse to get another boat, as in my opinion the X-9 is the best crossover boat for me and they don't make them anymore. I can live with the imperfection for now, but in 3 or 4 years who knows how bad its going to get.I don['t think it's just MasterCraft. I note that Malibu owners have some threads similar to this one, same general model-year as we're seeing here.

TMCNo1
08-27-2009, 10:46 AM
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_19_2.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZSfox000)

I prefer Naugahyde over all the known fabrics, but due to it's over use in the 60's and 70's, Naugha's were put on the Endangered Species list!

JimN
08-27-2009, 11:07 AM
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_19_2.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZSfox000)

I prefer Naugahyde over all the known fabrics, but due to it's over use in the 60's and 70's, Naugha's were put on the Endangered Species list!

It's still made- they found a way to remove the skin, like they do for skin grafts. My supplier has a small Nauga sitting on the wall over the office.

Seriously, Naugahyde is still made and some of my samples feel more like real leather than cheap or badly finished real leather but they're all more than $30/yd. The Ports O'Call marine vinyl I mentioned before is just like the kind used before, when it didn't have problems but again, it's not cheap.

mdskier
08-27-2009, 11:10 AM
Got my seats back from being recovered yesterday. I purchased the '99 Maristar last year with so many seams ripped it was not funny. The previous owner had them all taped over. The guy who did the work showed me the difference in the vinyl he uses and what Mastercraft had used (not sure if they still use the same, but the photos on this thread show that it was the same in the 2004). The difference is not only in thickness, but also in how the vinyl is attached to the backing. The new stuff was easily twice as think if not more. Very hefty. The stuff Mastercraft used was attached via a flossy material to the backing. The new vinyl has a mesh that is much stronger and durable.

As far as the seams, my upholstery guy says that with the stitching that Mastercraft does it is harder to have enough extra material to prevent tears at the seams. He says you should leave 3/8" -1/2" extra when you cut the material where it is seamed, but with the curves leaving extra material is difficult because the vinyl will not lay flat. An of course without the curves, it looks plain and cheap. They could be cutting things too close on the straight seams to cut costs. I know I had as many tears on straight seams as curved ones. Kneeling and pressure at the seams can tear them, but with proper stictiching and enough material they should not tear easily.

They say that with the vinyl Mastercraft uses, it is difficult to prevent those cracks and splits even with extra care and prevention. The cheap vinly makes it inevitable. He does say that oil and UV rays are the real problem. He was not a fan of 303 for vinyl as it has no real benefit other than UV protection. He does like 303 fabric and vinyl cleaner though (especially for Sunbrella). He says the best things are products specifically made to clean and protect vinyl products as they have additives specifically for vinyl. Also using mild soap and water like disk washing soap occasionally as it gets rid of oils easily.

It would seem that any replacement skins from Mastercraft would have the same issues. That's why the Mastercraft guy was basically saying that was not unusual wear - they expect failures like that with the material they use.

I had all seats in my boat custom recovered (including sun pad/engine cover and rear bench seat back). Cost was $2400 labor and $400 for material. Seems like a lot, but I think it is money well spent. I'll put together some pics in another thread as I had to go through the process of replacing the aluminum base in the sun pad/engine cover and I used marine grade plywood.

JimN
08-27-2009, 11:12 AM
The easiest way to not have splitting problems is by not pressing on the cushions in a small area, like using a fist, heel or knee. If kneeling, put the weight on the whole shin and put the hand palm down, spending as little time as possible in that position. Laying or sitting should be fine unless the person has a really bony butt or weighs a ton. If it's necessary to kneel for any length of time, fold a towel so it's about 4 layers thick and kneel on that.mAnd try to kneel on the flat areas instead of on the seams.

JimN
08-27-2009, 11:15 AM
Got my seats back from being recovered yesterday. I purchased the '99 Maristar last year with so many seams ripped it was not funny. The previous owner had them all taped over. The guy who did the work showed me the difference in the vinyl he uses and what Mastercraft had used (not sure if they still use the same, but the photos on this thread show that it was the same in the 2004). The difference is not only in thickness, but also in how the vinyl is attached to the backing. The new stuff was easily twice as think if not more. Very hefty. The stuff Mastercraft used was attached via a flossy material to the backing. The new vinyl has a mesh that is much stronger and durable.

As far as the seams, my upholstery guy says that with the stitching that Mastercraft does it is harder to have enough extra material to prevent tears at the seams. He says you should leave 3/8" -1/2" extra when you cut the material where it is seamed, but with the curves leaving extra material is difficult because the vinyl will not lay flat. An of course without the curves, it looks plain and cheap. They could be cutting things too close on the straight seams to cut costs. I know I had as many tears on straight seams as curved ones. Kneeling and pressure at the seams can tear them, but with proper stictiching and enough material they should not tear easily.

They say that with the vinyl Mastercraft uses, it is difficult to prevent those cracks and splits even with extra care and prevention. The cheap vinly makes it inevitable. He does say that oil and UV rays are the real problem. He was not a fan of 303 for vinyl as it has no real benefit other than UV protection. He does like 303 fabric and vinyl cleaner though (especially for Sunbrella). He says the best things are products specifically made to clean and protect vinyl products as they have additives specifically for vinyl. Also using mild soap and water like disk washing soap occasionally as it gets rid of oils easily.

It would seem that any replacement skins from Mastercraft would have the same issues. That's why the Mastercraft guy was basically saying that was not unusual wear - they expect failures like that with the material they use.

I had all seats in my boat custom recovered (including sun pad/engine cover and rear bench seat back). Cost was $2400 labor and $400 for material. Seems like a lot, but I think it is money well spent. I'll put together some pics in another thread as I had to go through the process of replacing the aluminum base in the sun pad/engine cover and I used marine grade plywood.

How many yards did he use?

TMCNo1
08-27-2009, 11:15 AM
It's still made- they found a way to remove the skin, like they do for skin grafts. My supplier has a small Nauga sitting on the wall over the office.

Seriously, Naugahyde is still made and some of my samples feel more like real leather than cheap or badly finished real leather but they're all more than $30/yd. The Ports O'Call marine vinyl I mentioned before is just like the kind used before, when it didn't have problems but again, it's not cheap.

This breed is used for pleated and rolled!
51022

JimN
08-27-2009, 11:16 AM
This breed is used for pleated and rolled!
51022

What is that? A young Chupacabra?

mdskier
08-27-2009, 11:17 AM
Looks like 27 yards of "mid grade expanded vinyl".

mdskier
08-27-2009, 11:18 AM
Scratch that. 16 yards of vinyl, 27 hrs labor.

TMCNo1
08-27-2009, 11:22 AM
What is that? A young Chupacabra?

Don't know, Yahoo Images!

CantRepeat
08-28-2009, 07:59 AM
What is that? A young Chupacabra?


I'd bet it is!

ggroller
08-28-2009, 12:30 PM
LOL...my wife wont let me get plastic on the couches so we got leather...lol...I just don't relax...I got myself a kayak so when people want to tie up and hang out and drink, I can now just kayak away. I usually wipe the boat down first then kayak away.

Ha ha ha. Try drinking beer. It mellows me out.

Ric
08-28-2009, 02:21 PM
I heard this happened in a few boats where the wrong engine was also shipped. Better check to see if you got the engine package you ordered! Hard to believe my 93 interior is still very nice. A couple seams on the Timer/Judge seat are showing some wear however.:o
you beat me to it!!!!! hahahahahah

3event
08-28-2009, 07:06 PM
'02 197, 285hrs, entire resting life under canopy AND factory cover. We never even park it in the sun, always on the lift under the canopy.

I have a couple of splits on observer seat, and one on the driver's seat - just noticed them two weeks ago. I'll have to inspect more closely.

This is my first inboard, and prior lesser boats had vinyl that held up 100% for up to 9 years, with virtually NO maintenance. On this boat I have invested much more time - on the interior I started with NuVinyl but switched to 303, most recently to Vinylex.

Apologies if I missed it, but does anyone peg a year where the vinyl improved since 01/02ish? I'm wondering now if skins for a newer 197 would match up for most of the major pieces. That's still an unacceptable maintenance bill though.:(

Ryan
08-30-2009, 06:27 PM
Mag - any updates from MC or your dealer?

I think it's nuts to have this problem. I wouldn't post these if this was a one-off abuse issue. But, I've been on your boat and seen how good of shape it was in and have seen enough of this widespread circumstance (Too-Tall's X2 vinyl was starting to split) to where I now bank on finding a '01-'04 with a shotty intertior for cheap and replace it with some more durable vinyl. MC chose to position themselves to be held to a higher standard and I really hope they come through for you. It's fair to expect more of their vinyl than a Moomba when paying a 30%+ premium purchase price, unfortunately the reality is contrary to their series of adds from '04.

Ryan
08-30-2009, 06:29 PM
A close up on the bottom ad copy. Coincidently vinyl isn't listed.

h2oskiluvr
08-30-2009, 07:51 PM
Mag, I wouldn't find that acceptable in a 5 year old boat that has been well cared for. Seems to me MC was replacing skins not only for the pink stains but for the splitting vinyl as well. I got a complete new set for my 2001 but I had to install them. You may hit them back up again and see if they will agree to supply to skins if you take care of installation.

Please tell me more about the "pink stains" you refer to in the post above. I have a strange yellowish stain around all the stitching around all the entire boat. It is the worst on the flat areas of the seats where it gets wet most often. I have totally baby'd my boat and there is no way it should have done this. Is this what you are referring to?

TX.X-30 fan
08-30-2009, 08:46 PM
Please tell me more about the "pink stains" you refer to in the post above. I have a strange yellowish stain around all the stitching around all the entire boat. It is the worst on the flat areas of the seats where it gets wet most often. I have totally baby'd my boat and there is no way it should have done this. Is this what you are referring to?




Sounds like pollen, even in storage mine gets pollen at those times of the year. You will have to check with 02lightning about pink seats.

TX.X-30 fan
08-30-2009, 08:52 PM
A close up on the bottom ad copy. Coincidently vinyl isn't listed.




Ad BS..................... Side panels cut wrong, dash cut wrong, seats deteriorating and on. Sliver of carpet glued down in the bow instead of just admitting ya missed the cut or just didn't give a crap and ship the boat we have a bond payment due!!!

h2oskiluvr
08-30-2009, 11:22 PM
Sounds like pollen, even in storage mine gets pollen at those times of the year. You will have to check with 02lightning about pink seats.

We have a LOT of pollen here. That makes sense.

So, any ideas on how I can take care of it? I have tried a lot of different cleaners and none of them have done anything.

wheeler
08-31-2009, 11:14 AM
Mag - any updates from MC or your dealer?

I think it's nuts to have this problem. I wouldn't post these if this was a one-off abuse issue. But, I've been on your boat and seen how good of shape it was in and have seen enough of this widespread circumstance (Too-Tall's X2 vinyl was starting to split) to where I now bank on finding a '01-'04 with a shotty intertior for cheap and replace it with some more durable vinyl. MC chose to position themselves to be held to a higher standard and I really hope they come through for you. It's fair to expect more of their vinyl than a Moomba when paying a 30%+ premium purchase price, unfortunately the reality is contrary to their series of adds from '04.

I hope they come through for Mag as well, but there are many of us out there with this sub-standard material/installation that would like some answers as well. There are also "thousands" of M/C owners who do not visit this forum section that are for sure having the same issues.

I understand that manufacturers have recalls for safety issues, and I find it hard for them to address a recal for something that takes time to fail. In this instance, it failed after warranties expired etc. Some of us may be 2nd ot 3rd owners. Still, it should not matter. MC is selling themselves as being held to a higher standard, the vinyl issues, to me is LOW STANDARD and needs to be addressed. There needs to be an acceptable life expectancy, 2-5 years is not acceptable in my book.

We can joke around and post pictures of wrinkled up alien looking cat/dogs or whatever that creature is, but the fact of the matter is.... I'm p*ssed at speding $2000 dollars for replacement material that #1 should not have to be replaced already, #2 is probably also going to fail in 2-5 years because they sold me the same stuff, #3 MC is making money off of it.....

There are people here who obviously have contacts, or keep in touch, or make phone calls to the "higher-ups" whatever......

Have them send out a "customer satisfaction letter" to all of those who purchased these boats in the '02 + year period and ask them about the interior issues and see what kind of response they get.... ....It would be a "fail" in that department....

Ryan
08-31-2009, 11:58 AM
I would love to know what they comodities/materials costs for skins are. I think they could at least offer skins at that materials cost. MC may be a little cash strapped to pay their full labor production to put them together, let alone pay dealers to install or TPP the job outside. I think there's another issue at hand for their dealers if they don't step in. Consider these boats with bad vinyl coming on to dealer lots as trade-ins. If there's a bigger gap between trade-in $ and purchase price, the attrition risk might be worse than covering new skins.

Having gone through a voluntary recall on my brand this year, I know how painful they can be, but sometimes you have to go above board to maintain your business for the long run and suck it up for a few quarters.

JimN
08-31-2009, 12:25 PM
I hope they come through for Mag as well, but there are many of us out there with this sub-standard material/installation that would like some answers as well. There are also "thousands" of M/C owners who do not visit this forum section that are for sure having the same issues.

I understand that manufacturers have recalls for safety issues, and I find it hard for them to address a recal for something that takes time to fail. In this instance, it failed after warranties expired etc. Some of us may be 2nd ot 3rd owners. Still, it should not matter. MC is selling themselves as being held to a higher standard, the vinyl issues, to me is LOW STANDARD and needs to be addressed. There needs to be an acceptable life expectancy, 2-5 years is not acceptable in my book.

We can joke around and post pictures of wrinkled up alien looking cat/dogs or whatever that creature is, but the fact of the matter is.... I'm p*ssed at speding $2000 dollars for replacement material that #1 should not have to be replaced already, #2 is probably also going to fail in 2-5 years because they sold me the same stuff, #3 MC is making money off of it.....

There are people here who obviously have contacts, or keep in touch, or make phone calls to the "higher-ups" whatever......

Have them send out a "customer satisfaction letter" to all of those who purchased these boats in the '02 + year period and ask them about the interior issues and see what kind of response they get.... ....It would be a "fail" in that department....

First, MC is aware that people are pissed about this and while I don't expect you to accept this, they aren't happy about it, either. They didn't expect the material to do this any more than you did and if they had, I suspect they would have chosen something else. They're also not the only boat manufacturer that used this material, which means their boats aren't the only ones that have a problem with it. Why send a letter when they already know how people will respond?

You posted "and I find it hard for them to address a recall for something that takes time to fail.". Yet, you want them to address this as if it didn't take time to fail. If your motor suffered a catastrophic failure after the warranty ended, would you expect MC to pay for a replacement? How many times have you had a car problem covered after the warranty was over, unless it was because a friend worked for the dealer and ran it through based on that? I suspect never, unless it was just out of warranty or it was a safety issue. GM, Chrysler and other car makers had huge problems in the '80s and '90s with paint failures on cars and trucks, some of which were repaired under warranty and others through recalls. Not the original owner? Not covered. Other factors that influenced the adhesion? Not covered and you want 2nd and 3rd owners to get a new interior? Have you ever really thought about this or is this just your reaction to the problem?


Nobody likes having something like this happen but yelling at a wall accomplishes nothing. Nobody here is in a position to help with a manufacturer issue. MC DID NOT make this vinyl. Why not get the contact info for that company and badger them into firing up for replacements? They made the material.

JimN
08-31-2009, 12:30 PM
I would love to know what they comodities/materials costs for skins are. I think they could at least offer skins at that materials cost. MC may be a little cash strapped to pay their full labor production to put them together, let alone pay dealers to install or TPP the job outside. I think there's another issue at hand for their dealers if they don't step in. Consider these boats with bad vinyl coming on to dealer lots as trade-ins. If there's a bigger gap between trade-in $ and purchase price, the attrition risk might be worse than covering new skins.

Having gone through a voluntary recall on my brand this year, I know how painful they can be, but sometimes you have to go above board to maintain your business for the long run and suck it up for a few quarters.

The sucking up for a few quarters has been going on for close to five years, since that's how long the marine market has been in a slide. They all lost a lot of business before the layoffs and if you noticed, Genmar filed in June of this year. They supposedly had some of the best manufacturing processes in the industry.

Read this for more persprctive:
http://www.tradeonlytoday.com/component/content/article/4-features/498619-the-slimming-down-of-the-boat-business

wheeler
08-31-2009, 12:35 PM
First, MC is aware that people are pissed about this and while I don't expect you to accept this, they aren't happy about it, either. They didn't expect the material to do this any more than you did and if they had, I suspect they would have chosen something else. They're also not the only boat manufacturer that used this material, which means their boats aren't the only ones that have a problem with it. Why send a letter when they already know how people will respond?

Ok, I get your point...however, if they are aware of the problem, why did they sell me the "exact" same material a few months ago......I would assume because they want it to match I guess?

JimN
08-31-2009, 12:43 PM
Ok, I get your point...however, if they are aware of the problem, why did they sell me the "exact" same material a few months ago......I would assume because they want it to match I guess?

If one panel is replaced, it's not always possible to get the same pattern from another manufacturer, so matching would be my guess, too. Mis-matched material sticks out like a sore thumb and if the replacement didn't, you wouldn't have been happy about it.

It's bad enough that any man-made material can vary from batch to batch but when, as I said, the EPA comes along and mandates changes after something has been in use for any length of time, it's no longer possible to get a direct replacement. As much as MC would like to be able to supply skins for older boats, they can't because the material is literally impossible to buy, at any price. If the material comes from old stock, I can guarantee that the color will have shifted because of exposure to light and air.

TX.X-30 fan
08-31-2009, 01:19 PM
We have a LOT of pollen here. That makes sense.

So, any ideas on how I can take care of it? I have tried a lot of different cleaners and none of them have done anything.

Use greased lightning, but after follow with mild soap and then a rinse. It has lye in it.

bbymgr
08-31-2009, 02:57 PM
If one panel is replaced, it's not always possible to get the same pattern from another manufacturer, so matching would be my guess, too. Mis-matched material sticks out like a sore thumb and if the replacement didn't, you wouldn't have been happy about it.

It's bad enough that any man-made material can vary from batch to batch but when, as I said, the EPA comes along and mandates changes after something has been in use for any length of time, it's no longer possible to get a direct replacement. As much as MC would like to be able to supply skins for older boats, they can't because the material is literally impossible to buy, at any price. If the material comes from old stock, I can guarantee that the color will have shifted because of exposure to light and air.

Everything you are saying makes perfect sense Jim, but maybe MC could have given some type of disclosure. They could have told someone requesting new skins that they could get them, but that the material has had some issues and that this was the same material because of pattern availability. That way the owner could have made the decision as to buying that vinyl or going out to a third party and having some made.

JimN
08-31-2009, 04:46 PM
Everything you are saying makes perfect sense Jim, but maybe MC could have given some type of disclosure. They could have told someone requesting new skins that they could get them, but that the material has had some issues and that this was the same material because of pattern availability. That way the owner could have made the decision as to buying that vinyl or going out to a third party and having some made.

Hard to say how the conversations go. Some could consist of "Hi. Can I get replacement skins for my 198x Prostar? No? OK, thanks.". Others could be "Why the he!! don't you have them? This is such BS, I hate you!". It's possible that the option has been offered but declined, too. I don't know.

While I agree that it's nice to be able to call and chat, that takes time and I think they have a lot more CS related calls than people to handle them, based only on the fact that they sell about 3000 boats/year.

bbymgr
08-31-2009, 05:46 PM
Hard to say how the conversations go. Some could consist of "Hi. Can I get replacement skins for my 198x Prostar? No? OK, thanks.". Others could be "Why the he!! don't you have them? This is such BS, I hate you!". It's possible that the option has been offered but declined, too. I don't know.

While I agree that it's nice to be able to call and chat, that takes time and I think they have a lot more CS related calls than people to handle them, based only on the fact that they sell about 3000 boats/year.

Sorry......I think you misunderstood me. I meant, when someone like wheeler orders a set of skins for an MC falling in the "bad vinyl" years(they had a set for him); Why couldn't he be told that the replacements were going to be the same vinyl and that the vinyl from those years wasn't holding up? That way wheeler could have made the decision to get the set or not knowing that the new set probably wouldn't last. It's not like 3000 boat owners per year are going to be "chating" with MC brass all the time. I understand that when parts are produced by another manufacturer MC has little or no control after the fact, but customer service is a controllable in a retail environment. Just communicating with the consumers isn't to much to ask.

JimN
08-31-2009, 06:41 PM
Sorry......I think you misunderstood me. I meant, when someone like wheeler orders a set of skins for an MC falling in the "bad vinyl" years(they had a set for him); Why couldn't he be told that the replacements were going to be the same vinyl and that the vinyl from those years wasn't holding up? That way wheeler could have made the decision to get the set or not knowing that the new set probably wouldn't last. It's not like 3000 boat owners per year are going to be "chating" with MC brass all the time. I understand that when parts are produced by another manufacturer MC has little or no control after the fact, but customer service is a controllable in a retail environment. Just communicating with the consumers isn't to much to ask.

Calling most manufacturers doesn't get the person in touch with the brass. That gets CS or technical.

As great as it would be for a manufacturer to pony up for complete interiors in boats with material that failed after the warranty ended, it's not a reasonable expectation unless it failed very shortly after. If MC were to sue the vinyl manufacturer, it might happen but unless that occurs, I doubt it. Also, I seriously doubt Malibu, Nautique, Skier's Choice or any of the other boat manufacturers would do it, either. One skin, if the material is available and it's not too long after the warranty ends, maybe but unless someone here has dealt with boat manufacturers as a dealer employee or owner, they don't have the same idea about how manufacturers deal with these issues. No other industry is the same, IMO and from my experience. There's really not much difference in expecting a dealer to cover what a manufacturer won't after the warranty- they didn't make it, so it's not their fault. If it's a small amount of money involved, it's not worth the time and effort to debate it but it's not something that MC would be reimbursed for.

I have seen one person who works for a dealer in this whole thread and he didn't actually address the topic. The dealers here know it's not going to be covered, so they haven't bothered to get involved.

Also, expecting a dealer to replace the skins isn't necessary going to work because not all dealers have someone who knows how to do it with good results.

bbymgr
08-31-2009, 07:26 PM
Calling most manufacturers doesn't get the person in touch with the brass. That gets CS or technical.

As great as it would be for a manufacturer to pony up for complete interiors in boats with material that failed after the warranty ended, it's not a reasonable expectation unless it failed very shortly after. If MC were to sue the vinyl manufacturer, it might happen but unless that occurs, I doubt it. Also, I seriously doubt Malibu, Nautique, Skier's Choice or any of the other boat manufacturers would do it, either. One skin, if the material is available and it's not too long after the warranty ends, maybe but unless someone here has dealt with boat manufacturers as a dealer employee or owner, they don't have the same idea about how manufacturers deal with these issues. No other industry is the same, IMO and from my experience. There's really not much difference in expecting a dealer to cover what a manufacturer won't after the warranty- they didn't make it, so it's not their fault. If it's a small amount of money involved, it's not worth the time and effort to debate it but it's not something that MC would be reimbursed for.

I have seen one person who works for a dealer in this whole thread and he didn't actually address the topic. The dealers here know it's not going to be covered, so they haven't bothered to get involved.

Also, expecting a dealer to replace the skins isn't necessary going to work because not all dealers have someone who knows how to do it with good results.

??????????? As I said earlier.......I agree with you on not being able to replace the skins. If you read my post again, you'll notice I never said anything about replacing the skins. All I am saying, is to acknowledge the problem to customers that order new skins and let them know that the new skins will be the same faulty vinyl. It seems that didn't happen with wheeler when he ordered his new skins recently. I feel that they should have told him so that he could have made the decision on getting the "bad" vinyl or not. By not divulging this information, MC made the decision for him. In my mind, knowing that there is a problem with that vinyl and still selling it without informing the customer, is not very ethical.

jss101
08-31-2009, 08:28 PM
I haven't read this thread to the end (they sure do grow quickly!) but...

I have a 2000 205 V with the same kind of cracking in the vinyl on the sunpad in the back. I'm going to have it re-upholstered this winter. It sure seems like they used poor materials during these years. My neighbor has a much older Nautique with a similar sunpad that's in perfect perfect condition never replaced. I keep my boat well covered every night and shrink wrapped in the winter. I'm pretty sure the cracking was caused by standing on the sunpad getting skiiers and boarders launched.

Shouldn't happen. Poor materials. Sad but true.

bigmac
08-31-2009, 08:42 PM
I haven't read this thread to the end (they sure do grow quickly!) but...

I have a 2000 205 V with the same kind of cracking in the vinyl on the sunpad in the back. I'm going to have it re-upholstered this winter. It sure seems like they used poor materials during these years. My neighbor has a much older Nautique with a similar sunpad that's in perfect perfect condition never replaced. I keep my boat well covered every night and shrink wrapped in the winter. I'm pretty sure the cracking was caused by standing on the sunpad getting skiiers and boarders launched.

Shouldn't happen. Poor materials. Sad but true. Go over to Planet Nautique and search on "vinyl". Likewise go over to the Maibu forums and do the same. You will find that vinyl problems are in absolutely no way limited to MasterCraft in the expensive ski boat category.

Now, I don't know how Malibu and/or CC are handling these claims. I also don't know how MasterCraft is handling these claims since I haven't talked to my dealer about MY deteriorating vinyl. If he tells me "no joy", and I find out that one of the other mfgrs is handling it better, well....that will definitely figure into the brand of boat I buy next.

sully
08-31-2009, 10:39 PM
I still think Mastercraft has a responsability here, after all they should have been the ones writing the technical specifications for all the vendors to bid on and inspecting the manufactures plant and products. If they wrote the specifications correctly they should be able to go back to that vendor and make them responsible to fix the problems. The recall process comes to mind.
Just my two cents

JimN
08-31-2009, 10:46 PM
I still think Mastercraft has a responsability here, after all they should have been the ones writing the technical specifications for all the vendors to bid on and inspecting the manufactures plant and products. If they wrote the specifications correctly they should be able to go back to that vendor and make them responsible to fix the problems. The recall process comes to mind.
Just my two cents

Look at the crap Bayliner used in their interiors before they pulled their heads out of their keesters and upped their quality. That crap went bad at the speed of light and I bet they made more on an $8000 boat than MC makes on a $50K boat.

Ryan
09-01-2009, 12:44 AM
I still think Mastercraft has a responsability here, after all they should have been the ones writing the technical specifications for all the vendors to bid on and inspecting the manufactures plant and products. If they wrote the specifications correctly they should be able to go back to that vendor and make them responsible to fix the problems. The recall process comes to mind.
Just my two cents

Not a bad idea and works well up to the point when the vendor files BK Chapter 7 and closes their doors for good. Which can be lightening quick.

JimN
09-01-2009, 11:02 AM
Not a bad idea and works well up to the point when the vendor files BK Chapter 7 and closes their doors for good. Which can be lightening quick.

What happens of replacing all of these skins is the straw that breaks the camel's back for MC and they file?

Hoosier Bob
09-01-2009, 11:31 AM
I agree that is a loser all the way around. My concern is why not leverage your buying/manufacturing strength for current and future customers by offering replacements of higher quality at cost? Something has to be better than hiding behind BK or the economy. Things are tough all over but as large of an investment as a new MC is it should last a very long time. What is MC made the same concessions in the hull and or engine? Indmar offers what warranty? 3 years? So if they all blew up after three years this would be acceptable? I doubt it. The reason is that we all know and expect to get more life out of a well cared for engine than the warranty period. If we did not we would not have purchased the boat. A warranty period covers manufactured defects and unexpected failure. The items we are speaking of appear to be a known or expected failure. No need to file BK as if isues like these persist and service as said continue it will take care of itself. If MC screwed up by compromising quality, supplier or manufacturing they should at the very least speak with their supplier and find a resolution. The interiors are past the warranty period. Get with your suppliers and find a way to get these guys a new interior, skins or what have you at cost. No one should make one penny by this mistake. MC can help there loyal supporters and the owners will have the option to replace the damaged skins at a very reasonable cost.:D What happens of replacing all of these skins is the straw that breaks the camel's back for MC and they file?

Muttley
09-01-2009, 12:17 PM
My concern is why not leverage your buying/manufacturing strength for current and future customers by offering replacements of higher quality at cost? . MC can help there loyal supporters and the owners will have the option to replace the damaged skins at a very reasonable cost.:D

Although I agree with you in principle, admitting liability could open them up for a class action suite. That could be devastating for the company.

Mastercraft doesn't manufacture the actual vinyl, they just have it sewn into the skins. I do believe that there was a ton of vinyl in those few years that was crappy quality. I don't think that Mastercraft was the only one affected by this. I've seen Nautiques of the same vintage with the same problems. ...Not that that will make you feel any better :(

Hollywood
09-01-2009, 12:32 PM
I've seen Nautiques of the same vintage with the same problems. ...Not that that will make you feel any better :(

Really? I haven't seen a 7 page thread on this on PN yet...

TX.X-30 fan
09-01-2009, 12:49 PM
Although I agree with you in principle, admitting liability could open them up for a class action suite. That could be devastating for the company.

Mastercraft doesn't manufacture the actual vinyl, they just have it sewn into the skins. I do believe that there was a ton of vinyl in those few years that was crappy quality. I don't think that Mastercraft was the only one affected by this. I've seen Nautiques of the same vintage with the same problems. ...Not that that will make you feel any better :(




How about all of it. :confused: However many boats were sold had the same vinyl right?

Hoosier Bob
09-01-2009, 01:01 PM
Not saying admit liabillity but I get your point. I am saying to leverage the manufacturer of the vinyl that has not met MC requirements to offer an at cost replacement of greater quality. I as an owner of a company would expect the supplier to ensure quality of the product. A warranty does not ensure quality the manufacturer does. Just saying the supplier should be asked to provide an upgraded replacement at cost. I doubt after 5 years anyone would consider this a warranty issue but expected service life of the product appears to be very low. I am about done with people and their liabillity. If you manufacture, repair or sell anything there is expected and reasonable liabillity. The stabillity of the company should in no way limit or grant excuse or reason for a deficient product IMO.;)

Should they replace it? No but there seems to have been an issue with the quality and or manufacturing and they should make an honest attempt to resolve.Although I agree with you in principle, admitting liability could open them up for a class action suite. That could be devastating for the company.

Mastercraft doesn't manufacture the actual vinyl, they just have it sewn into the skins. I do believe that there was a ton of vinyl in those few years that was crappy quality. I don't think that Mastercraft was the only one affected by this. I've seen Nautiques of the same vintage with the same problems. ...Not that that will make you feel any better :(

Hollywood
09-01-2009, 01:03 PM
How about all of it. :confused: However many boats were sold had the same vinyl right?

I believe the issue really is poor quality vinyl that is tearing due to the unique stitching pattern. Fixing any 1 out of the 2 would result in a fine looking interior. Oh, that or just don't put any weight on it (love those comments :rolleyes:)...

Hoosier Bob
09-01-2009, 01:26 PM
Sometimes in business you have to man-up. This does not mean spend a lot of cash or quiet consumers. What is means is say; in an effort to keep costs as low as possible some new ideas and resources were explored. These resources have proven to be of lesser quality than expected even though all warranty concerns and agreements are and have been met. The fact is service life has not met our expectations. The items are not under warranty and do not qualify for replacement. These items have been and are widely used throughout the marine industry. We feel that our customers rightfully expect higher standards than these items are curently providing so at this time MC is ceasing relations with these suppliers. Or we have re-specified requirements of the product. Moving forward this problem has ben corrected. As far as our customers that received the items in question an upgraded replacement of the product will be available at dealer cost. I am in business to remain in business. Resolution and service do not always come free but they should be fair. The vinyl exceeded the warranty period, nothing more to be said. It did not live up to brand expectations. :D

sunfun
09-01-2009, 01:54 PM
Just wanted to see if any one else here would be disappointed to find this on their boat. Boat is a 2004 PS209. (310 hours ) Only time out in the elements is maybe 12-18 week-ends a year. The rest of the time it's kept in a storage building with the cover on. I can tell you I baby my toys, use only recommended products in their care. I don't allow shoes of any kind in the boat and never allow boards or skis to touch the upholstery. You be the judge..............
BTW..........the heads at Mastercraft find this perfectly acceptable:rolleyes: Pics are in this order 1. Left Sun Pad 2. Right Sun Pad 3. Obvious 4. Rear Seat Cushion 5. Right Bow Cushion

Has anyone ever been on the boat with sun tan products? These items can help bake the vinyl.

Hoosier Bob
09-01-2009, 02:17 PM
Mag is naturally dark! :D I get the Sun Products debate but my boat is loaded with everything and after 16 years no issue. Also we usually use the spray on so it gets everywhere. Cannot immagine a recommendation or warning if tanning products ruined vinyl. Also cannot immagine being on a boat in the middle of summer and saying, "sorry kids you are gonna have to burn!" Lol!Has anyone ever been on the boat with sun tan products? These items can help bake the vinyl.

76S&S
09-01-2009, 02:47 PM
Although I am affected by this crappy vinyl, I agree with Muttley that this could turn into a large liability issue for MC if they admitted that the vinyl was an inferior product.

How would they determine which vinyl was damaged from cleaning agents, sun screen or it just fell apart over time?

Ryan
09-01-2009, 04:21 PM
What happens of replacing all of these skins is the straw that breaks the camel's back for MC and they file?


The vendor is the camel...or it's their camel's back or whatever :rolleyes: I wasn't speaking to MC's financial status. In Sully's comment he suggested MC should push on the vinyl vendor to fix the problem - I doubt they have reserves to handle a recall of this scope especially since their vendor supplied multiple manufacturers. Multiple manufacturers could start lining up at the vendor's door and drain them dry or send them runnin'.

Ryan
09-01-2009, 04:30 PM
...What is MC made the same concessions in the hull and or engine? ,,,

Nope, just drain plugs. ;)

I'm glad to see this thread has lasted more than 2 days.

Hoosier Bob
09-01-2009, 04:40 PM
Manufacturing changes. I think MC will be ok as the product exceeded the warranty. Admitting liabillity? Maybe the world would be a better place if someone would just say they made a call that appears to have compromised quality. I do not think they did so intentionally so there would be no liabillity in that the product warranty has expired. They could say they have since changed or re-spec'd their decision and would like to assist in getting the worn pieces fixed. MC has many customers and suppliers. They should be able to find a supplier that needs the work. Customers according to their position will have to replace the vinyl anyway so why not get a supplier to manufacture at the very least, at cost and with better material. Hiding behind liabillity and fear of suit is a joke. Grab the bull by the horns. No one is saying free, atleast I am not. Manufacturing costs were set, vinyl wears out, offer a sollution. Who would want a free set of the same crap anyway? I am sure they are busy but I as and MC exec would want to see the product and establish if this could re-occur or if the issue has been fixed. Who would buy a boat knowing in 5 years of care you would replace the interior? The issue appears to have been fixed admittedly or not. Make an offer to your supplier to manufacture the 2002-20whatever skins at cost. Pass this on to the owners and keep a supplier busy. If it cannot be achieved for fear of a lawsuit then stick your head in the sand and wait for all to pass over, including customers. MC has more to gain than lose. Hey everyone our space age vinyl did not work as we expected so now we are going in a different direction. They could change the engine supplier tomorow! They could change the glass supplier tomorrow, this does not mean they are all of the sudden liable because they chose a different supplier that manufactures a superior or more cost effective product. Maybe a local dealer can arrange this since it is too small of an issue. I would make an attempt, that is all.;)Although I am affected by this crappy vinyl, I agree with Muttley that this could turn into a large liability issue for MC if they admitted that the vinyl was an inferior product.

How would they determine which vinyl was damaged from cleaning agents, sun screen or it just fell apart over time?

Hoosier Bob
09-01-2009, 04:42 PM
Ha! Good one! Never saw a plastic drain plug but I am only 45! I take that back my Jetski has a plastic drain plug!:oMy point is crap happens, you want to supply? Yes! You want to sell? Yes! You want to buy? Yes! Let's get it on! Work through this crap, no attornies and no BS! The owners are out of warranty and screwed. What are they gonna do? All can step up to the pump here and meet in the middle!

I will even arbitrate pro bono! Sure I am not a lwayer but that is a good thing! If it smells like a flower it probably is a flower and if it smells like crap it is probably crap. I am ready now!Nope, just drain plugs. ;)

I'm glad to see this thread has lasted more than 2 days.

TX.X-30 fan
09-01-2009, 05:25 PM
Mag has been curiously absent, did he get free skins??????????????????????

Hoosier Bob
09-01-2009, 05:29 PM
Burlap! Looks great! Rough on the skin though!;)Mag has been curiously absent, did he get free skins??????????????????????

TMCNo1
09-01-2009, 09:33 PM
The vendor is the camel...or it's their camel's back or whatever :rolleyes: I wasn't speaking to MC's financial status. In Sully's comment he suggested MC should push on the vinyl vendor to fix the problem - I doubt they have reserves to handle a recall of this scope especially since their vendor supplied multiple manufacturers. Multiple manufacturers could start lining up at the vendor's door and drain them dry or send them runnin'.


What happens if the vinyl manufacturer is no longer in business and has left everyone hanging, even their suppliers that are/were owed money?

Mag_Red
09-01-2009, 09:45 PM
Mag has been curiously absent, did he get free skins??????????????????????no free skins......

Hoosier Bob
09-01-2009, 10:03 PM
I am sure MC has a current supplier! The fact is they are 5 years old and out of warranty. Leverage your relationship and work a deal. Hi, this is Mag Red and I am calling about the replacement skin deal for 2002 through 2005 MC's. Hello Mag! Year, Make, Model and scheme? Blah, Blah, Blah and Blah. Ok Mr. Red you have a Blah, Blah, Blah and Blah! Yes sir that is correct. Your skins are being made and that will only cost you Blah! Sucks but I could be getting crap skins and paying more for them but I have a bunch of money which is why I bought an MC in the first place so thanks! Done!;)What happens if the vinyl manufacturer is no longer in business and has left everyone hanging, even their suppliers that are/were owed money?

Hoosier Bob
09-01-2009, 10:05 PM
Bob and Tom! Skin to Win!:Dno free skins......

bbymgr
09-01-2009, 10:15 PM
Bob and Tom! Skin to Win!:D

White Trash Expo!!!!!!!!!!!

jmac197
09-01-2009, 10:25 PM
Really? I haven't seen a 7 page thread on this on PN yet...

Maybe they're not the whining type and they're too busy out enjoying their boats.:)

Ryan
09-02-2009, 12:11 AM
What happens if the vinyl manufacturer is no longer in business and has left everyone hanging, even their suppliers that are/were owed money?

You're out of luck and deal with what ever options you can afford. When a co. shells all assets and closes shop, that's it.

So, you set a PR plan and honestly inform consumers/customers what you're doing to correct the circumstance (ex:switching vendors as a measure of good faith and reassurance). MC can't and shouldn't replace all vinyl affected for free. It's not like hulls are delaminating. But something needs to be done, even if it's just communication. Too many co. leaders forget they are in a social contract with their consumers and as stewards of a brand need to communicate now more than ever. It's expected in an age when Pfizer has a Twitter page.

We had a supplier caused recall, they filed Ch 7 in two weeks as many sought recourse. Some competitors tried to reduce risk, limiting recalls. We recalled everything on our dime, reimbursing customers and paid shipping and reclemation. Turned to our advantage as we beat everyone back to market while they eventually recall everything. The difference is we could afford it and I don't think MC can or should. But, I'm glad our Twitter page wasn't up then...:cool:

wheeler
09-02-2009, 10:19 AM
Maybe they're not the whining type and they're too busy out enjoying their boats.:)

Maybe you are just not the type who cares for your boat as much as I do. I also own a Harley, stand in front of a Harley store one day and say the same thing to a guy walking in the store who has some stitching issues with his seat on a bike he just paid $20K for and see if you are still standing......

I find your post totally irrelevant....I'm not whining, I am pissed off.

agua4fun
09-03-2009, 10:31 PM
hmmm, cant believe i just found this thread. My 2001 PS190 is also splitting, and has been since 04? It gets worse every week. vinyl splitting was also discussed back in 06 on this thread.

http://mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=10936

good luck trying to get anything to happen, my friend who also has an '01 xstar has the same isues. Ive been to multiple dealers, over multiple years and nobody can help. I held off getting new skins (back in 06) because i was told by the dealer that they were the same (bad) quality material.

Ech...

TMCNo1
09-03-2009, 10:48 PM
FWIW, I asked about the problematic vinyl and it's not the bad quality of the vinyl material itself, but the vendor that did the stitching on the fabric before it was shipped to MC after manufacture, sewed the stitching too tight, stressing the material and that is why it tears only at the needle holes and not anywhere else.

Mag_Red
09-03-2009, 11:13 PM
FWIW, I asked about the problematic vinyl and it's not the bad quality of the vinyl material itself, but the vendor that did the stitching on the fabric before it was shipped to MC after manufacture, sewed the stitching too tight, stressing the material and that is why it tears only at the needle holes and not anywhere else.so are you saying that if I ordered a new set of skins I would probably not have the same problem??? Because I would assume another vendor would be doing the actual sewing??? I thought they stitched them in the factory?????????????:confused:

JimN
09-03-2009, 11:32 PM
so are you saying that if I ordered a new set of skins I would probably not have the same problem??? Because I would assume another vendor would be doing the actual sewing??? I thought they stitched them in the factory?????????????:confused:

It depends. Material can be bought on rolls with that kind of stitching, usually with thin padding on the back. If it's bought that way and it was stitched by a jobber, they have machines that do all of the rows at one time so the rows are straight and consistent. If their machine was set at 1/8" instead of 3/16" and the material needed 3/16", it can be a problem.

TMCNo1
09-04-2009, 12:01 AM
so are you saying that if I ordered a new set of skins I would probably not have the same problem??? Because I would assume another vendor would be doing the actual sewing??? I thought they stitched them in the factory?????????????:confused:

It depends. Material can be bought on rolls with that kind of stitching, usually with thin padding on the back. If it's bought that way and it was stitched by a jobber, they have machines that do all of the rows at one time so the rows are straight and consistent. If their machine was set at 1/8" instead of 3/16" and the material needed 3/16", it can be a problem.

As I previously posted, the straight line stitches were machine gang sewn, like JimN says by someone else besides MC, then those panels were cut at MC and sewn together with other panels w/o the straight line stitching to make the skin for that particular item like the motor cover/sun pad, etc. And as I understand it, that is something only time would tell, even if the original manufacturer or a different vinyl manufacturer made the same grain/quality/color vinyl and different vendor sewed the straight line stitches, depending on if it was sewn correctly, it would take a few years to find out if there was still a problem. Throw into the mix, how much use, sun exposure, cleaning chemicals used, protectant used, by various owners with different maintenance ideas and you've got more questions than answers.

wheeler
09-04-2009, 08:46 AM
Interesting last couple of posts. I am going to hold high hopes that the skins that I have recently purchased have been sewed correctly. If not, I will have my own solution. I will take the large pieces that I have saved from the left and right sun pads that do not have any stitching and have it sewn into the middle pad should it start coming to pieces in a year or so. So......all is not lost I guess, just time and money. :(

deminimis
09-14-2009, 08:12 PM
Well, this is a long read. Read the first few pages and skipped to the end (short attention span I guess). The vinyl in my '04 X-Star is for crap (more cracks in my interior than on Keith Richard's face). I can live with a different pattern if I swap it all out. Is MC using a different supplier/process now as I'd like to start saving my pennies if the newer stuff is better quality. Not interested in buying the same, flawed interior. Thanks.

coz
09-14-2009, 08:51 PM
(more cracks in my interior than on Keith Richard's face)

:uglyhamme

Covi
09-14-2009, 09:06 PM
:uglyhamme

Good stuff!!!!

JohnE
09-14-2009, 09:11 PM
I believe the new vinyl is from a different mfg, but am not positive.

Hollywood
09-15-2009, 10:10 AM
I was in my friend's 2003 PS 209 over the weekend, the trunk had this cracking...

JimN
09-15-2009, 11:23 AM
And again, talking to MC about it will do more than making this thread longer. Do it calmly and without making a stink about it. They're the only ones who could do anything about it.

Sodar
09-15-2009, 11:28 AM
Well, this is a long read. Read the first few pages and skipped to the end (short attention span I guess). The vinyl in my '04 X-Star is for crap (more cracks in my interior than on Keith Richard's face). I can live with a different pattern if I swap it all out. Is MC using a different supplier/process now as I'd like to start saving my pennies if the newer stuff is better quality. Not interested in buying the same, flawed interior. Thanks.

Yes, the vinyl was changed in the '05 boats to a new material. From what I have heard from dealers is that the 05-present vinyl has not been cracking like the '01-'04 vinyl did.

TMCNo1
09-15-2009, 11:30 AM
Yes, the vinyl was changed in the '05 boats to a new material. From what I have heard from dealers is that the 05-present vinyl has not been cracking like the '01-'04 vinyl did.
The vinyl in my '04 X-Star is for crap (more cracks in my interior than on Keith Richard's face).

Maybe the vinyl manufacturer sent the material on tour with the Rolling Stones before shipping it to MasterCraft!

sizzler
09-15-2009, 11:41 AM
mag.....missed this thread.......

i have a 2004 X9 (as you know)

replaced vinyl on

rear seat......twice
observer seat......once
both ski lockers.....once.....
front starboard bow cushion.....once


cracks appearing on engine cover......


i have left my rear seat out this season to stop it cracking...


it is poor quality......too many stitches......and too many excuses.....

did get a couple of the re-covers done on warranty after one year....

wheeler
09-17-2009, 11:45 PM
I say you were lucky to get any skins back under warranty. Good for you!!!

bfinley
09-23-2009, 01:53 AM
Has anyone been able to determine what years are the "problem years" for the Vinyl? 2002 - 2004??

Hollywood
09-23-2009, 10:13 AM
Yes, the vinyl was changed in the '05 boats to a new material. From what I have heard from dealers is that the 05-present vinyl has not been cracking like the '01-'04 vinyl did.

--------------------------------

Hoosier Bob
09-23-2009, 11:41 AM
Include 1991-1994! Mine are beginning to split! Just fired off a letter to MC!:DHas anyone been able to determine what years are the "problem years" for the Vinyl? 2002 - 2004??

Ryan
09-25-2009, 03:00 PM
HB, Footin was just telling me what spectaculary shape your '93 is in. Your seams are splitting too huh?

For anyone needing a few apholstry parts, there's a lucky find on CL.
http://monroe.craigslist.org/boa/1390613550.html

Hoosier Bob
09-25-2009, 09:17 PM
Can't blame a guy for trying!;)HB, Footin was just telling me what spectaculary shape your '93 is in. Your seams are splitting too huh?

For anyone needing a few apholstry parts, there's a lucky find on CL.
http://monroe.craigslist.org/boa/1390613550.html

JerryW
09-25-2009, 10:04 PM
I know I'm late in the game on this thread, but I have a 2002 X-9 that originally had a white interior, that developed pink stains in it, that would not come out from it. I complained long and hard enough to the dealer and they took the issue to Mastercraft who replaced the whole interior in 2005, as a "good will gesture", with a light grey interior. They said it was due to a defect in the vinyl and it was some sort of mold in the vinyl or the backing that was causing the stains. Since it was replaced, no stains, or cracking yet.

TX.X-30 fan
09-26-2009, 03:16 PM
Just got through cleaning the boat and took a good look at the seat rips and I think I know the problem. The vinyl is about as thick as 2 sheets of notebook paper, this was not bad vinyl it was cheap vinyl bought to up the bottom line and douche the customer. The more I see how cheesy the sh!t is the more pissed I get. I should not be looking at 3,000 for new seats on a boat that has been garaged and babied all its time.





PISSED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TX.X-30 fan
09-26-2009, 03:44 PM
I am in the process now of repairing the side of the seats which all most all are tearing on the sides and corners. 90% of this upholstery's life it has had 4 people using it and 2 of them well below 50 pounds. I can not for the life of me understand why a 60,000 thousand dollar boat would have paper thin vinyl seats!!!!

I would not have bought the boat had I seen a piece of this sh!tty vinyl before I purchased. Expensive lesson.