351w Head Gasket Replacement

[xRUSTYx]

Hey Guys ... New here, and to MC's in General.

Spent the last couple weeks reading up as much as I possibly can, and really appreciate the wealth of knowledge in this forum! It has helped TREMENDOUSLY.

Now, on the to issue ...

1987 Tristar 351w -
* Long Block has less than 100 hours on it.
* Blew headgasket last weekend (due to overheating -- Ran it accidentally too long out of water -- complete noob mistake :o)
* Compression checked ... All consistent at 120 +/- (1-2%) except cylinders 1/2 ... They read 90 and 110 ...

Spoke with several people in the know, they mostly agreed the likely culprit was a blown headgasket. Parts have been ordered from skidim (excellent place btw) and we are planning on doing the tomorrow evening. It seems pretty self explanatory to me, HOWEVER, I feel it better to be safe than sorry.

Anyone have a guide and/or online manual for Head Removal and/or Head Gasket Replacement for a 351? Just want to make sure everything we take off ends up back where it needs to be!

Appreciate any and all help. I did infact use the search function (like I have been doing for several weeks here now) and was unable to come up with any information.

Thanks
RUSTY

[TMCNo1]

Hey Guys ... New here, and to MC's in General.

Spent the last couple weeks reading up as much as I possibly can, and really appreciate the wealth of knowledge in this forum! It has helped TREMENDOUSLY.

Now, on the to issue ...

1987 Tristar 351w -
* Long Block has less than 100 hours on it.
* Blew headgasket last weekend (due to overheating -- Ran it accidentally too long out of water -- complete noob mistake :o)
* Compression checked ... All consistent at 120 +/- (1-2%) except cylinders 1/2 ... They read 90 and 110 ...

Spoke with several people in the know, they mostly agreed the likely culprit was a blown headgasket. Parts have been ordered from skidim (excellent place btw) and we are planning on doing the tomorrow evening. It seems pretty self explanatory to me, HOWEVER, I feel it better to be safe than sorry.

Anyone have a guide and/or online manual for Head Removal and/or Head Gasket Replacement for a 351? Just want to make sure everything we take off ends up back where it needs to be!

Appreciate any and all help. I did infact use the search function (like I have been doing for several weeks here now) and was unable to come up with any information.

Thanks
RUSTY


I hope you ordered a new raw water pump impeller too?

[xRUSTYx]

I hope you ordered a new raw water pump impeller too?

NO ... I didn't!!! :confused: Am I going to need one of those as well? Crap ....

[justinglow]

Yeah pretty sure that's toast too if you ran it without water.

[xRUSTYx]

darn ... is there a way to test and see what the current condition of the impeller is?

EDIT: Nevermind, figured this one out ... Any help in the manual/online PDF or something as far as head replacement?

[kevkan]

Only way I know to check condition of impellor is to disasseble the raw water pump. Very easy task. I have been told to put liquid soap (dish soap) on the impellor during reassembly to prevent it from being damaged on the first start-up (no water in pump).

In my understanding there is no difference between running out of water and running too long out of water. I never start my boat without a water source. It is very easy to remove the raw water intake from the fitting in the bottom of the boat and intall a garden hose in the intake hose.

[TMCNo1]

Do what? '87 should be a Indmar. Just take off the 4 screws, remove the cover and gasket and look at or pull the impeller out, why disassemble the pump?

[xRUSTYx]

Do what? '87 should be a Indmar. Just take off the 4 screws, remove the cover and gasket and look at or pull the impeller out, why disassemble the pump?

Correct TMC, its an Indmar. :)

[xRUSTYx]

think I found the online manual I was needing. For anyone else in the future that may need, here ya go:
http://www.correctcraftfan.com/Downloads/Ford_302-351_Service_Manual.pdf

[Cloaked]

Make sure that you have all of the required torque specs.

[TRBenj]

When you say you ordered parts from SkiDIM, what exactly did you buy? Hopefully you got intake manifold gaskets, thermostat housing gaskets, carb gaskets, valve cover gaskets and head bolts (stock bolts cant be reused) in addition to the obvious (head gaskets).

[xRUSTYx]

Yup, got it covered TRBenj!

Thanks for all your help guys ... we are going at it this evening and will let you guys know the results!

[gibbons]

It's easy to remove the heads, a little more involved to put them back on because you have to make sure the intake manifold is sealed around the water ports, etc. Also, before you remove the heads, turn the #1 cylinder to TDC, and make a mark on the collar on the distributor and the manifold. That will make it easier to get things pretty close when you reassemble things. You're going to have to get it re-timed. If I was you, I would probably go on-line at summitracing.com and buy some new head bolts. You have a torque wrench, right?

Those heads should be pretty manageable. Try hoisting cast iron big block heads over the fenders of a car!

Oh, yeah, when you pull the heads off, residual water from the water jackets is going to run down in the cylinders. Be prepared for that to happen with some paper towel wads to quickly stuff in the cylinders to soak up as much water as possible before it sneaks past the rings.

[PhotoInc]

I would think you could pull the intake with out removing the carb, and Thermostat housing

[gibbons]

Let me preface this offer with this note... I think in my few posts that I have irritated people and given them the impression that I think I know everything. I just like to help people. There are a few things in life I do know about, this is one. I admit, I don't know anything about most things.

If you haven't done this kind of work before, and would like a life-line, send me a PM and I will send you my cell number. If you bump up against something perplexing, you can gimme a shout-out and I will see if we can figure something out.

Here's my recent project, building this from the block up....

[gibbons]

Oops, there was supposed to be a picture of my Chevelle's big block motor I built attached to that post.

[JimN]

I'll add a couple of items to this:

A mark to show the distributor rotor's position is needed, too. Without it, the rotor shaft could go in 180 degrees off of where it should (on a GM) and increments of 60 degrees off (Ford). As long as the distributor base/intake manifold and rotor are marked, it would be impossible for the timing to change unless someone rotates the crank.

When the motor is being prepped for disassembly, drain it and make the boat move as much as possible. Trailer it on hilly roads, if possible. That way, more water will drain out and less will be available to drip/pour into the oil gallery, passages and cylinders. Change the oil immediately after reassembly, so any water that may have gotten into the crankcase will drain out. If you know that more than a little water got in, plan on another oil change after the initial startup. Buy oil in gallons for these changes, so you don't pay as much/quart.

[PhotoInc]

Can't you pull the 351W intake without pulling the distributor? Looks like the distributor mounts in the block.
I would set the engine at TDC anyway

[JimN]

Can't you pull the 351W intake without pulling the distributor? Looks like the distributor mounts in the block.
I would set the engine at TDC anyway

Maybe but it's still in the way and removing it makes gasket cleanup much easier.

[xRUSTYx]

It's easy to remove the heads, a little more involved to put them back on because you have to make sure the intake manifold is sealed around the water ports, etc. Also, before you remove the heads, turn the #1 cylinder to TDC, and make a mark on the collar on the distributor and the manifold. That will make it easier to get things pretty close when you reassemble things. You're going to have to get it re-timed. If I was you, I would probably go on-line at summitracing.com and buy some new head bolts. You have a torque wrench, right?

Those heads should be pretty manageable. Try hoisting cast iron big block heads over the fenders of a car!

Oh, yeah, when you pull the heads off, residual water from the water jackets is going to run down in the cylinders. Be prepared for that to happen with some paper towel wads to quickly stuff in the cylinders to soak up as much water as possible before it sneaks past the rings.

Got Rags Ready to stuff :) Copy on making a mark on the dis and manifold to line back up properly. And yes, we have a torque wrench. Pics of before dissembly as well will be up on a laptop not to far away. Printed the entire 351 manual and its now sitting in a binder. Got any and all gaskets we may need, (2) new impellers, anti-seize lube, gasket silicone, and tools galore ....

I'll add a couple of items to this:

A mark to show the distributor rotor's position is needed, too. Without it, the rotor shaft could go in 180 degrees off of where it should (on a GM) and increments of 60 degrees off (Ford). As long as the distributor base/intake manifold and rotor are marked, it would be impossible for the timing to change unless someone rotates the crank.

When the motor is being prepped for disassembly, drain it and make the boat move as much as possible. Trailer it on hilly roads, if possible. That way, more water will drain out and less will be available to drip/pour into the oil gallery, passages and cylinders. Change the oil immediately after reassembly, so any water that may have gotten into the crankcase will drain out. If you know that more than a little water got in, plan on another oil change after the initial startup. Buy oil in gallons for these changes, so you don't pay as much/quart.

Copy on draining .... I'm assuming draining both oil and water as best as possible, correct? Trailer is stationary at this point so we won't be able to go for some hilly roads ... any other suggestions on getting all fluids out? Excellent point on LOTS of oil! That is 1 thing I did no account for and will head there now !!!

Thanks for the tips guys! Keep them coming!!!

[gibbons]

Heck, while you're at it, throw in some Rhodes variable bleed lifters. Their oil bleeding properties reduce valve timing to give you more torque at lower RPMs. The bleeding tapers off with speed, so you get full power at full RPMs. And Harland Sharp bearing fulcurm, roller tip rocker arms are good too (the orange units). They claim incredulous power gains for such a simple device. I like them, expecially when I take my valve covers off ;)

[xRUSTYx]

gibbons -- you may my block cry when it see's that perty picture of yours .... Yours looks mighty fine!!!

[gibbons]

That's the motor in my Chevelle, which needs constant TLC. In the pic I am putting in new valve springs, the old ones sacked which caused valve float at 6000 rpm. The MC has an LT-1, I've never had to mess with it, other that dialing in the cooling system.

[JimN]

That's the motor in my Chevelle, which needs constant TLC. In the pic I am putting in new valve springs, the old ones sacked which caused valve float at 6000 rpm. The MC has an LT-1, I've never had to mess with it, other that dialing in the cooling system.

Did Alan tell you about his high school intern who put an LT-1 in his Jeep CJ-5? You may have met with him before that, though.

[PhotoInc]

Heck, while you're at it, throw in some Rhodes variable bleed lifters. Their oil bleeding properties reduce valve timing to give you more torque at lower RPMs. The bleeding tapers off with speed, so you get full power at full RPMs. And Harland Sharp bearing fulcurm, roller tip rocker arms are good too (the orange units). They claim incredulous power gains for such a simple device. I like them, expecially when I take my valve covers off ;)
That's a mighty fine looking Chevelle motor.....396?

[CameronCarey]

Make sure that you have all of the required torque specs.

And Sequence..........it should be in that manual....note that the 351 and 302 have different size head bolts and different torque specs...make sure you have the correct info...........a couple users have had challenges with that before

[gibbons]

That's a mighty fine looking Chevelle motor.....396?

It's a 454 that was punched to 468 during the motor build. The car is a '68 SS, but when it was rescued from the crunch machine, someone had already raided the motor and trans. Since the purist aspects were gone (cowl tag matching serial numbers), the bigger motor was thrown in, along with a Tremec TKO 5speed.

The exterior of the car looks very stock, under the hood looks a little different.


Hey xRUSTYx, how's the work coming along?

[PhotoInc]

Hey xRUSTYx, how's the work coming along?
He's up to his elbows in RTV and coffee!!

[xRUSTYx]

Hey xRUSTYx, how's the work coming along?

Hey Gibbons ... We got quite a lot accomplished last night. Head is off, and the cleaning of both surfaces started last night. The block and heads have less than 100 hours on them and they look in perfect shape .... wish I could say the same for the head gasket. It was quite easy to see where it was leaking from. Razor blade and carb cleaner for an hour last night got most of the old HG off. Getting a brillo pad to give it a couple more buffs before the cleaning and reinstall starts!

Another question for you guys -- Push rod installs. Feeler gauge I know is used to check whether rod is straight or not. As for installation, the manual simply states to torque down to factory specs with no type of measuring minus the actually torque of the bolt (17-23 lbs. btw) Those that have reinstalled pushrods, does that sound right?

He's up to his elbows in RTV and coffee!!

haha ... RTV hasn't been cracked open just yet, but it will TONIGHT !!!! Hoping to finish up everything by this evening!

Thanks for all your help guys! :)

[JimN]

Hey Gibbons ... We got quite a lot accomplished last night. Head is off, and the cleaning of both surfaces started last night. The block and heads have less than 100 hours on them and they look in perfect shape .... wish I could say the same for the head gasket. It was quite easy to see where it was leaking from. Razor blade and carb cleaner for an hour last night got most of the old HG off. Getting a brillo pad to give it a couple more buffs before the cleaning and reinstall starts!

Another question for you guys -- Push rod installs. Feeler gauge I know is used to check whether rod is straight or not. As for installation, the manual simply states to torque down to factory specs with no type of measuring minus the actually torque of the bolt (17-23 lbs. btw) Those that have reinstalled pushrods, does that sound right?

haha ... RTV hasn't been cracked open just yet, but it will TONIGHT !!!! Hoping to finish up everything by this evening!

Thanks for all your help guys! :)

Use Scotch Brite- Brillo leaves soap and metal shavings and vacuum any debris out of the cylinders when you're done.

Where are you using RTV? Should only be at the end gaskets for the intake manifold, right?

[xRUSTYx]

Use Scotch Brite- Brillo leaves soap and metal shavings and vacuum any debris out of the cylinders when you're done.

Where are you using RTV? Should only be at the end gaskets for the intake manifold, right?

Good call on the scotch brite Jim ... I thought RTV on the intake manifold gaskets, as well as exhaust manifold gaskets ? Am I wrong?

[JimN]

Good call on the scotch brite Jim ... I thought RTV on the intake manifold gaskets, as well as exhaust manifold gaskets ? Am I wrong?

Exhaust manifolds don't always get a gasket- late '90s models only had RTV. Intake gaskets usually havea a bead of sealant on them already so if they get any sealant, it's at the ends where the end gaskets mount. Read the instructions and DO NOT USE AUTOMOTIVE GASKETS. Use marine only. The exhaust risers get a gasket, too and it's specific to the model/year. That's a place that you don't want to have fail and dump water into the cylinders.

[xRUSTYx]

Hey Guys ... Here's the latest.

Got head gasket replaced, all new gaskets (intake/exhaust/valve cover), new impeller and gasket .... Everything put back together correctly. New Plugs, new oil and filter ... New vacuum hose.

Had her ready to start up about noon yesterday ... Tried unsuccessfully for about an hour. She wanted to turn over but wouldn't. Figured it was likely the timing ... Had cylinder one on the compression side, tried to tune via #1. Still wouldn't turn over. Lifted dizzy and shaft back out, and the center pin (something that goes on the bottom of the dizzy shaft?) fell to the bottom of the block/oil pan. I have searched for the past 2-3 hours trying to figure out what this part is and have yet to figure it out. Anyone know what I am talking about?

You have the dizzy, then shaft down to the rotor, than another inch of shaft that ends with a 6 sided female end. Whatever went in to this is what we are trying to figure out! Any help would be great!

Thanks guys!

[xRUSTYx]

here is what i am talking about:

5/16" hex drive -- whatever goes in to this fell ... Anyone happen to know where it may have gone? Oil Pan? etc...?

http://marineengineparts.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/media/MALLORY/LINEMAL9-26302.jpg

[JimN]

Get a thin, flexible magnet and probe around the cam gear. Look at the drive gear on the distributor and make sure the roll pin is still there. If not, that's what fell in and that's not a good thing. It's a roll pin and it's absolutely necessary that it's in place. If it fell out before you cranked it, it's likely that the drive gear rotated without the shaft, so you'll need to time it from scratch.

[xRUSTYx]

Yeah, we were thinking a magnet ... It wouldn't have dropped in to the oil pan by chance? Looked at the Distributor, and I see no roll pin. Once we lost that piece, we never again cranked it ... fearing it would do much more damage than good as we weren't entirely sure where it ended up!

[JimN]

Yeah, we were thinking a magnet ... It wouldn't have dropped in to the oil pan by chance? Looked at the Distributor, and I see no roll pin. Once we lost that piece, we never again cranked it ... fearing it would do much more damage than good as we weren't entirely sure where it ended up!

If the hole is empty, you lost the pin. It probably wouldn't fall all the way down to the pan in one trip, but it's possible. Hard to tell without seeing exactly where the oil drains are. You can buy small rare earth magnets that could be attached to a wire coat hanger but you'll need to make sure they can't come off. That way, you can send the wire into the motor and fish around.

[xRUSTYx]

Thanks Jim ... Will try and find a magnet tomorrow!

As far as dropping the oil pan if worse comes to worse -- How hard is this with the block still in the boat? Feasible, or unfeasible?

EDIT: Jim, this look like the pin?

http://www.probeindustries.com/v/vspfiles/photos/11481-2.jpg

[JimN]

[QUOTE=xRUSTYx;622314]Thanks Jim ... Will try and find a magnet tomorrow!

As far as dropping the oil pan if worse comes to worse -- How hard is this with the block still in the boat? Feasible, or unfeasible?

EDIT: Jim, this look like the pin?

This is a roll pin:http://www.imperialinc.com/items.asp?item=0773930

and they come in all different lengths, diameters and some are only one layer.

The oil pan won't come out with the motor in place. You may try washing the pin into the crankcase with oil by pouring it into the hole where the distributor enters but I would look in there with a very bright light first. It may even be in the gear teeth, close to the top but because it's dark in color, you can't see it.

Harbor Freight and many good hardware stores sell tiny rare earth magnets.

[xRUSTYx]

Jim ...

Ok, you lost me. We thought something went on to the VERY VERY bottom of the shaft (something hexed - 6 sided) It looks like there is a hole in the middle of the distributor that the shaft fits in to. This *pin* you speak of sits below the gear but above the very tip, correct?

Essentially, what is being punched out here, right? Also, do you happen to know where online I can find a diagram of a distributor? it would REALLY help us out! Thanks for all your help Jim, much appreciated :)

http://www.v8engines.com/Gallery/Malory-pin-punch.jpg

[xRUSTYx]

Jim,

That pin is still in there, just looked. Whatever dropped, came from that hex female end ... ideas?

[Dave2302]

:cry:

Oil Pump Drive Shaft ???

[xRUSTYx]

:cry:

Oil Pump Drive Shaft ???

That's we are thinking .... I just fished around for 20 minutes with a magnet and got zilch ... nada ... nothing.

My buddy thinks we should drain the oil and see if the shaft ends up down by the plug, then we know for a fact it ended up in there.

Any other suggestions -- i'm at a loss for words :(

[JimN]

That's we are thinking .... I just fished around for 20 minutes with a magnet and got zilch ... nada ... nothing.

My buddy thinks we should drain the oil and see if the shaft ends up down by the plug, then we know for a fact it ended up in there.

Any other suggestions -- i'm at a loss for words :(

Look down where the end of the distributor shaft goes- do you see anything that would mate with the end of the shaft or are both female? If you see a male end and the shaft is female, look at the oil pump drive gear for missing teeth and do the same on the gear at the end of the cam that drives the distributor. If you see missing teeth, and I have, you need to replace whatever lost them and fish out any metal that dropped in.

Also, you can't time the engine if teeth are missing.

[JMann]

Rusty sorry to hear about all this. I've been following your thread this sounds like something that would happen to me.
Good luck and keep us updated.

[PhotoInc]

Man I feel your pain!! I just helped a buddy fix his leaky water pump, told him to start it up, pump was fine no leak, but it started really slow. I asked him if he ever tighten the battery cable to the starter ( cuz it's been lose for awhile now), he said no, so I grabbed a wrench put it on the nut, when I started to tighten it, the whole back of the solenoid broke off. The wires where all rusty and shot. Now this is an Air Nautique V drive, what a pain in the but motor to work on. Basically I was standing on my head to pull the starter out.
Good luck with your search and rescue.

[PhotoInc]

Just had a thought.....I know Plumbers and some Mechanics have small cameras on snakes for looking into places like pipes and stuff, maybe you could locate one in your area. I have used them with a plumber on my own house. May be worth a shot.

[PhotoInc]

Something like this.......I think Home Depot has them too. Buy it, use it, return it, or they may have it in the tool rental Department.
http://www.todaysconcept.com/ridgid-25643-sea-snake-micro-inspection-camera.html?gcid=C13563x022

[Bellinghamster]

Oil pump drive shaft. I've heard of this happening before. You'll probably have to pull the oil pan. I've not experienced that particular "aw crap!" moment myself. Sorry, but I'm not willing to go see if my oil pump driveshaft will drop all the was into the pan just to prove I'm right.

[Dave2302]

Hi,

To be honest, I've had this happen a long while ago on a Ford car engine. We left the old one in the pan and fitted a new one. We knew the car and it never suffered any ill effects.

I know this ain't the right way and I know some will cringe, but it is very unlikely that this hex shaft will do any damage just lying around in the bottom of the sump. If it were me I'd fit a sump drain plug with a good magnet, buy a new oil pump drive from Ford, put it all back together and take it out for a few hours running, in the hope that it will get stuck on the drain plug magnet. Then carefully, gently remove the drain plug and you should be able to get the old pump shaft out with a little telescopic magnet if it doesn't come out on the drain plug magnet. If not, forget all about it all the while the motor is running fine.

It's a hell of a lot better than having to strip the whole motor to fish it out, and like I said, you'll be very unlucky if it does leap up from a pan full of oil and hit any rotating parts !!!

I do stress though your motor your call.

Good luck with whatever you decide,

Regards Dave

[xRUSTYx]

Look down where the end of the distributor shaft goes- do you see anything that would mate with the end of the shaft or are both female? If you see a male end and the shaft is female, look at the oil pump drive gear for missing teeth and do the same on the gear at the end of the cam that drives the distributor. If you see missing teeth, and I have, you need to replace whatever lost them and fish out any metal that dropped in.

Also, you can't time the engine if teeth are missing.

Hey Jim,

Doesn't look like there are any teeth missing, and the female end is not cracked. It is infact a female hex end -- with no male attachment :(

Rusty sorry to hear about all this. I've been following your thread this sounds like something that would happen to me.
Good luck and keep us updated.

Thanks JMann

Something like this.......I think Home Depot has them too. Buy it, use it, return it, or they may have it in the tool rental Department.
http://www.todaysconcept.com/ridgid-25643-sea-snake-micro-inspection-camera.html?gcid=C13563x022

Hey photo ... Good idea -- The problem is, the size. That camera looks too big to fit down in there. We would need like a telescopic size camera to fit through the distributor shaft hole and move down from there :(

Hi,

To be honest, I've had this happen a long while ago on a Ford car engine. We left the old one in the pan and fitted a new one. We knew the car and it never suffered any ill effects.

I know this ain't the right way and I know some will cringe, but it is very unlikely that this hex shaft will do any damage just lying around in the bottom of the sump. If it were me I'd fit a sump drain plug with a good magnet, buy a new oil pump drive from Ford, put it all back together and take it out for a few hours running, in the hope that it will get stuck on the drain plug magnet. Then carefully, gently remove the drain plug and you should be able to get the old pump shaft out with a little telescopic magnet if it doesn't come out on the drain plug magnet. If not, forget all about it all the while the motor is running fine.

It's a hell of a lot better than having to strip the whole motor to fish it out, and like I said, you'll be very unlucky if it does leap up from a pan full of oil and hit any rotating parts !!!

I do stress though your motor your call.

Good luck with whatever you decide,

Regards Dave

Hey Dave ... I have thought about this scenario ... Do you mean simply replacing the shaft or the entire oil pump? I found ARP makes replacements quite cheap ($19)

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ARP-154-7901/?image=large

My friend also had the idea of draining the oil once again, and flushing oil down through the distributor to see if the shaft would then end up in the oil pan. Thoughts ???

Thanks guys .... :o

[xRUSTYx]

I guess I could always upgrade the oil pump while we are at it ....

Won't break the bank and comes with a new shaft (i'm assuming that washer on the end is supposed to be used as a stop?)

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MEL-10833/

Is the oil pump replaceable without pulling the block?

[T-Rager]

Rusty,

The "washer" in the picture is indeed a retainer that is designed to keep the oil-pump drive shaft from coming out of the oil pump drive gear when the distributor is removed. The retainer is typically made of spring steel and has internal "teeth" so that it slides only in one direction. Occasionally, when an engine has a lot of internal sludge, the drive shaft gets stuck in the distributor drive gear, and when the distributor is pried out of the engine, the retainer is forced down the drive shaft, the shaft comes out of the oil pump drive gear and often falls into the oil pan.

In your case, the oil pump drive shaft retainer may have been mis-positioned or omitted altogether when the long block was installed.

I believe that it is impossible to service the oil pump without lifting the engine.

Best wishes,

Tom

[xRUSTYx]

Hey Tom,

Appreciate that :)

Had another buddy of mine stop by .... Here is what he recommended, if you could lend me your thoughts, please do.

1) Hand crank the engine atleast 1 full rotation. He said if you could get a full rotation, shaft was not stuck in the crank and the only other place would infact be the oil pan.
2) If in the oil pan, he said it could be dropped just enough to get a magnet in and get the shaft out, etc....
3) He was also fairly certain once we had the shaft, it could be reinstalled from the top, and not the bottom.

That sound about right to ya'll ?

[Dave2302]

Rusty, yep your mate is right, rotate the engine to make sure it isnt wedged in the crank, and the drive can be installed from the top, however, I have my doubts about dropping the pan without lifting the motor out....
It's not the dropping the pan, but getting it back with all gaskets and seals intact so it won't leak oil, i just don't think its viable without having the engine out.

What I was suggesting was fitting a new shaft from above and leaving the old one in the bottom of the pan, but like I said earlier some will cringe and it isn't the text book way to do it!

Regards Dave

[xRUSTYx]

Thanks Dave!

The issue being, we aren't entirely sure how to hand/manually crank it. Impeller is sitting there, and normally you would use the bolt to leverage against .... no such luck. Anyone have any ideas on hand cranking?

So, we tried to go the easy way ... Drained oil, pulled plug from pan, and went at the inside of the oil pan with a flex magnet -- no such luck :(

So ... At the end of the day ... We may be left with having to take the boat in ... Something that pains me, but it pains me even more knowing the boat just sitting there unusable :(

Cheapest labor I have found so far is $89/hour. If anyone has an engine hoist large enough (van/truck style needed) around Nashville, and willing to let us borrow it and perhaps helps, we would be more than willing to compensate!!!! :)

[gibbons]

Just a thought, based on a personal experience. I was driving my Chevelle and its 468 started getting noisier and noisier. All at once, it started misfiring, backfiring, coughing, etc. I pulled a valve cover, and found that one of the rocker arm adjuster nuts had come loose and was nowhere to be seen. It must have rattled down to the oil return hole in the rear of the head and fallen in! Dang!

I pulled the distributor in preparation to pull the intake manifold off. I had a silly thought, why not stick a flex magnet in? So in a desperate rage I did, and while poking around, heard a "plink". What the heck? Naw, it can't be, I am not that lucky. I retrieved the magnet, it had grabbed the nut which had apparently been sitting on the ledge of the lifter valley.

If I was you, before I yanked the motor, I would yank the intake manifold off to see the whole picture in the top end. You might be as lucky as me.

[T-Rager]

The oil pump drive shaft is on the order of 5" long. I'm doubtful that you could fish it out the oil drain hole.

If you elect to leave it in the oil pan and install another shaft from the top, you will not be able to install the oil pump drive shaft retainer. Thus, when you pull the distributor next time, you'll likely lose the new shaft as well.

Also, it is not trivial to install a new shaft from above because, when in place, the uppermost tip of the shaft sits slightly below the surface of the engine block webbing that supports the distributor shaft. If you lose your grip on the new shaft before it engages with the oil pump drive gear, it too could fall into the pan. If you use a thin-wall, deep socket loaded with grease to manipulate the shaft into place, you may have success. However, the potential for the first shaft to cause damage remains.

Tom

[xRUSTYx]

Thanks Gibbon, thanks Tom ...

I'm at the stage where I would rather do something correctly the first time, instead of paying for it later on down the road ... If that means a full day of labor, correcting the problem the right way (inserting through the bottom with retainer pin) from the get go -- I would rather go that way than having the shaft end up in the crank case down the road tearing up everything in its path ...

It may cost a pretty penny up front, but its better than the thousands in damage it can cause later :o

[JimN]

Thanks Dave!

The issue being, we aren't entirely sure how to hand/manually crank it. Impeller is sitting there, and normally you would use the bolt to leverage against .... no such luck. Anyone have any ideas on hand cranking?

So, we tried to go the easy way ... Drained oil, pulled plug from pan, and went at the inside of the oil pan with a flex magnet -- no such luck :(

So ... At the end of the day ... We may be left with having to take the boat in ... Something that pains me, but it pains me even more knowing the boat just sitting there unusable :(

Cheapest labor I have found so far is $89/hour. If anyone has an engine hoist large enough (van/truck style needed) around Nashville, and willing to let us borrow it and perhaps helps, we would be more than willing to compensate!!!! :)

If you want to crank it manually, remove the spark plugs and put a ratchet wrench on the bolt that holds the crank pulley. Turn it in the normal direction. It should turn fairly easily since you wouldn't be fighting with compression. If it suddenly resists, back it off and try the magnet again. You may hear it drop into the pan if you drain the oil before turning the crank, especially if it's sitting on one of the counterweights or webs.

The drive pin is 1/4" hex, right? That won't get sucked into the oil pump because that has a screen over the pickup.

[PhotoInc]

If you elect to leave it in the oil pan and install another shaft from the top, you will not be able to install the oil pump drive shaft retainer. Thus, when you pull the distributor next time, you'll likely lose the new shaft as well.



Seems to me the previous owner(s) may have done this before, explaining why he lost the shaft this go round. I would not be surprised if you find two shafts in your engine. I've never been that deep into a 351, so I'm not exactly sure how all those parts are going together.

[PhotoInc]

Hey Rusty,
Just found this on another forum. Your issue seems to be a common occurrence. He pulled his fuel pump also to gain access to the oil pan, and describes a DIY magnet set up.
Worth a look..... saved his season of boating, and this was after he ran the engine, not realizing he lost the oil pump shaft.

http://forums.iboats.com/showpost.php?p=2146090&postcount=38

[Bellinghamster]

I wouldn't risk leaving the shaft in there... The possibility of it sloshing or bouncing up into the bottom of the crankshaft would keep me from doing any hard turns or acceleration.

Buy or borrow a come-along and find a sturdy tree branch or beam in a garage. Pulling the engine is pretty straightforward and easy. Once it's out, pulling the pan is simple. It's also a good excuse to clean the bilge and inspect the pylon mount, fuel and water hoses, clean up and paint the engine and transmission, inspect the flywheel damper plate, etc. etc... Put a new oil pan gaskets and crank seals in so you won't have any oil leaks for a long, long time.

An engine stand makes is easy (flip the engine upside down) to work on. Ask around to borrow one, or they can't be much to rent for a couple days. I see them for sale on Craigslist frequently for $75-100.

[xRUSTYx]

If you want to crank it manually, remove the spark plugs and put a ratchet wrench on the bolt that holds the crank pulley. Turn it in the normal direction. It should turn fairly easily since you wouldn't be fighting with compression. If it suddenly resists, back it off and try the magnet again. You may hear it drop into the pan if you drain the oil before turning the crank, especially if it's sitting on one of the counterweights or webs.

The drive pin is 1/4" hex, right? That won't get sucked into the oil pump because that has a screen over the pickup.

Correct .... Thanks for explaining that! Will give it a shot this evening :o

Hey Rusty,
Just found this on another forum. Your issue seems to be a common occurrence. He pulled his fuel pump also to gain access to the oil pan, and describes a DIY magnet set up.
Worth a look..... saved his season of boating, and this was after he ran the engine, not realizing he lost the oil pump shaft.

http://forums.iboats.com/showpost.php?p=2146090&postcount=38

Perfect Photo .... May have to go at it through the fuel pump ... I want to be 100% sure the shaft isn't sitting perpendicular on the crank though .... If I know for a fact its sitting at the bottom of the pan, I will be a much happier camper :)

I wouldn't risk leaving the shaft in there... The possibility of it sloshing or bouncing up into the bottom of the crankshaft would keep me from doing any hard turns or acceleration.

Buy or borrow a come-along and find a sturdy tree branch or beam in a garage. Pulling the engine is pretty straightforward and easy. Once it's out, pulling the pan is simple. It's also a good excuse to clean the bilge and inspect the pylon mount, fuel and water hoses, clean up and paint the engine and transmission, inspect the flywheel damper plate, etc. etc... Put a new oil pan gaskets and crank seals in so you won't have any oil leaks for a long, long time.

An engine stand makes is easy (flip the engine upside down) to work on. Ask around to borrow one, or they can't be much to rent for a couple days. I see them for sale on Craigslist frequently for $75-100.

Hey Bellinghamster -- Yeah, I'm pretty much in that boat. I don't want to leave it, but I also don't want to have to end the season early. I *may* end up running it if I know its sitting at the bottom -- Purchase a short block over winter with some new GT40p heads ... Build the crap out of it, then make the switch ..... i'm sort of at a Y in the road ....

[xRUSTYx]

Wellllll .....

Thank you guys for ALLLLLLLL your help .... We got her fired up and purring this evening. Ran her for a good 15-20 minutes, all seems good so far .... Tomorrow she goes through the ringer !!!!!

Thanks Guys!!!!

[PhotoInc]

Good job... did you get the shaft out of the engine?? Enjoy the rest of your boating season!!

[thatsmrmastercraft]

Good luck on the run. Make sure to post the results.

[Dave2302]

Good job... did you get the shaft out of the engine?? Enjoy the rest of your boating season!!

Don't forget guys, this is a marine engine.... It should have a windage tray below the crank. Therefore, as long as the shaft is in the sump, even if it does manage to leap up through 5 - 6 litres of oil (doubtful), it won't hit the rotating crank it will just bounce off the windage tray and back into the pan !!

Like I said before, I know it's not the text book way to do it, but if it were mine I'd run it for the rest of the season and then fish it out in the winter. Gives you a project to do when bored through no skiing ;)

[JimN]

Don't forget guys, this is a marine engine.... It should have a windage tray below the crank. Therefore, as long as the shaft is in the sump, even if it does manage to leap up through 5 - 6 litres of oil (doubtful), it won't hit the rotating crank it will just bounce off the windage tray and back into the pan !!

Like I said before, I know it's not the text book way to do it, but if it were mine I'd run it for the rest of the season and then fish it out in the winter. Gives you a project to do when bored through no skiing ;)

I seriously doubt it will have the tray. It's a good idea when the motor is run the way these are but I have never seen one, although I didn't need to tear many motors down.

[Dave2302]

I seriously doubt it will have the tray. It's a good idea when the motor is run the way these are but I have never seen one, although I didn't need to tear many motors down.

Hi Jim,

:)

I'll bow to your MC experience on the tray or lack of debate, especially on the Fords as I've only built a couple of Fords. But I based my comments on loads of S/B and BB Chevy's as almost all the marine Chevys I've had apart have had 'em from stock.

Dave