Help....engine problems 02 X-star

[treptowr]

2002 X-star 310 HP TBI motor. 500 Hours.
Was out today. Filled ballast, pulled a rider, no problems. Sat for a while as a rain storm came through than went again. Pulled rider up, just as we were getting to speed. The engine made 3 or four popping sounds like it was missing or backfiring. Boat lost power engine light and alarm came on and I shut it down. Temp, volt and oil pressure was all good. Oil looks good and at normal level. Full tank of gas. Nothing in the engine got wet from the rain that I could see. No fluids in the bilge. Boat wouldn't start back up. Sat for 10 minutes, boat started up and idled normal. When I got over 5-7 mph it would start missing and popping again and have no power. Idled to the dock. Dropped riders off, boat wouldn't start again. Let it sit for 10 minutes, it started back up and I ran it at 5-7 mph for the mile or so ride to the launch. A couple more times I tried getting going a little faster and it had no power and sputtered, missed, popped. Engine light and alarm never came back on after the initial time. Any ideas? Is this the notorious fuel pump problem? Been following those threads on aftermarket pumps hoping I wouldn't have to deal with it. Thanks.

[bigmac]

Not sure what it is, but it's not typical of the in-tank fuel pump failure. My first thought would be that something happened to your timing - not advancing as you throttle up. Next thought would be a problem with your ECU.

[treptowr]

Think the rain is a factor? One other note. About two weeks ago I hit the throttle some to pull up a rider. The boat felt like it had no power. It didn't sputter or anything, but there was no power. I just let off the gas, shut it down. Checked engine area, then started it back up and it ran fine for probably 10-15 hours until today. No alarms or anything came on at that time. All gauges were fine too.

[bigmac]

Think the rain is a factor? One other note. About two weeks ago I hit the throttle some to pull up a rider. The boat felt like it had no power. It didn't sputter or anything, but there was no power. I just let off the gas, shut it down. Checked engine area, then started it back up and it ran fine for probably 10-15 hours until today. No alarms or anything came on at that time. All gauges were fine too.

THAT sounds more like fuel pump -- the losing power. The sputtering and popping, the running OK at idle but dying at throttle-up, the check engine light -- I suppose that could be fuel pump, but it's not typical of my experience with my dead fuel pump, nor the usual description people are posting here.

I don't know about the rain. I can't think of what that might cause on a boat that would result in those symptoms. Maybe a bad connector that got wet or something, but most of that stuff is pretty protected from rain.

I guess I'd check the fuel pressure at key on, at idle, and at throttle up while the symptoms are happening (fuel pressure guage available at most auto parts stores), but I'd sure like to know what error codes are stored in the ECU. If you don't have a fuel pressure gauge and don't want to buy one, might be more productive to just bite the bullet and take it to the dealer to check the ECU and reset it, and have them test the fuel pressure at the same time.

[treptowr]

Just to clarify, it doesn't die when I throttle up, it just won't go any faster/has no power and it sounds like it is missing or something. Still runs. One time I put it in neutral and rev'd it up briefly, sounded fine and rpms came up, but once in gear and then trying to power up, it would start missing. It "popped" a few times, like a backfire.

I did post over on WW and someone mentioned they had a very similar problem and that it was "....the bolt that clamps the distributor in place came loose and the distributor kept turning on it's own. Went to the store and got a stainless lock washer, re-timed the motor, and problem solved!" I'll have to take a look at that.

Also, if I do end up having to take this in, the closest MC dealer is about 75 miles away. Never had my boat there as I bought it used three summers ago and have not had any problems. I also have a Centurion Dealer that is a mile away from me. Would the Centurion Dealer be able to retrieve the codes? Would they even be able to work on the boat? Or would you take it to the MC dealer?

[bigmac]

Yeh, I still don't think it sounds like fuel pump. I don't know what kind of ECU Mercury uses on their inboards, but you could call the guy and find out if their code reader is compatible with your Delphi MEFI-3 (maybe MEFI-4...not sure which in 2002).

If you know how to use a timing light and can borrow or buy one, you can check the timing fairly easily and find out if your timing has changed. Also, make sure all your plug wires are attached and in good shape.

[JimN]

Yeh, I still don't think it sounds like fuel pump. I don't know what kind of ECU Mercury uses on their inboards, but you could call the guy and find out if their code reader is compatible with your Delphi MEFI-3 (maybe MEFI-4...not sure which in 2002).

If you know how to use a timing light and can borrow or buy one, you can check the timing fairly easily and find out if your timing has changed. Also, make sure all your plug wires are attached and in good shape.

Mercruiser had already switched to the Motorola controller, so I don't think it's really compatible. The first Merc EFI used the MEFI 1 & 2 and then they changed.

[treptowr]

don't know how to use a timing light. Will check plug wires. Thanks again.

[JohnE]

I'd just take it to the MC dealer at this point. If it's easy enough that you might have been able to fix it on your own, the bill shouldn't be too bad. And if not, what other choice do you have? I wouldn't take it to the other dealer just to save an hour or so drive.

[JimN]

don't know how to use a timing light. Will check plug wires. Thanks again.

If you can get one, you would connect the red clamp to the battery + and the black clamp to the battery -, then put the other wire on one of the spark plug wires. When the motor is cranked, you would press the button and if the ignition system is working, you should see a flash every time that plug wire has enough voltage and if the plugs are OK, it should make spark. This can be used on all plug wires and the wire that goes to the cap from the coil.

[rhsprostar]

Have you checked to make sure all your plug wires were on TIGHT?

[treptowr]

I just found a timing light to borrow. I'd like to spend a day or two trying to figure it out before taking it to the dealer where it will sit for 2 weeks before they can even look at it. :(

[JimN]

I just found a timing light to borrow. I'd like to spend a day or two trying to figure it out before taking it to the dealer where it will sit for 2 weeks before they can even look at it. :(

Good idea. Make plenty of notes, too and then if you have more questions, it'll be easier than trying to remember them when you're ready to strangle someone.

You may see flashes that don't seen like they should happen- don't worry about them unless you hear backfiring or something else that may coincide. Usually, it's from a timing light that's just a bit sensitive, electrically.

Since you said you were going to check your wires, if they're older than about 3 years and it either sits idle or is run hard, it's probably time to change them. When a motor sits, moisture can impregnate the wire jacket or conductor and cause problems and graphite wires can arc internally, causing brittle spots that ultimately crack and fail to conduct at higher RPM. Also, the clip can corrode and cause bad contact with the plug's electrode. Further, plugs that rust into the thread don't ground as well as they should so even loosening them and re-tightening can improve the situation.

When did you clean the flame arrestor last? If that's dirty enough, it's like trying to run a marathon with duct tape over your mouth.

If this stuff checks out OK and you want to check for codes, let us know.

[treptowr]

Really appreciate all the help here. I had planned on replacing the plug wires. As far as I know they are the original ones? At least 3 seasons old because that's how long I've had the boat. Cause of our short season here, it sits in cold storage for 7-8 months a year. Spark plugs are on their 3rd season too. Replace those? Could I just get a set of plug wires from a car parts place? There isn't anything special about them, is there? I cleaned the flame arrestor at the beginning of last season, it looks OK, but I'll clean that too. Keep the suggestions coming. What stinks is I'll have to trailer to the lake to test it as the problem was only under load. Thanks.

[bigmac]

JimN:

How does one go about timing a Predator RTP-1? And, how would the timing get out of adjustment? Could this be a problem with vacuum advance?

Indmar says this in their owners manual:

[treptowr]

Good find Big Mac. I appreciate all the effort you all put forward on this site to help out. Thanks again.

[JimN]

JimN:

How does one go about timing a Predator RTP-1? And, how would the timing get out of adjustment? Could this be a problem with vacuum advance?

Indmar says this in their owners manual:

If the motor has a distributor, it's put into service mode and then the base timing is set. If that excerpt is from a newer manual, it may not apply to a 2002, which is what the OP's info shows- he has a 310 HP TBI motor, which has a distributor. The excerpt indicates that the timing it set for life so people don't jack up the advance without knowing what they're doing during the warranty period.

There is no vacuum advance on these motors- the MAP sensor tells the ECM the barometric pressure when the key is turned ON and it indicates the absolute pressure under the throttle plate(s), whether positive or negative. The MAP doesn't affect the timing advance the way it did on older motors, i.e., there's no vacuum line going to the distributor.

The first thing we were told at MC training is that of the motor has a distributor, verify that base timing is correct before it's delivered.

[bigmac]

Yes, that was the current Indmar owner's manual. I missed that he had the TBI, not the Predator, and I do see that that engine has a distributor. Sounds like it needs a session with the timing light after thoroughly checking, maybe replacing, the spark plug wires. Base timing should be 10 degrees BTDC.

[JimN]

Yes, that was the current Indmar owner's manual. I missed that he had the TBI, not the Predator, and I do see that that engine has a distributor. Sounds like it needs a session with the timing light after thoroughly checking, maybe replacing, the spark plug wires. Base timing should be 10 degrees BTDC.

Predator is TBI. That was partially doe to the molded plastic shell over the flame arrestor. I think.

[bigmac]

Predator is TBI. That was partially doe to the molded plastic shell over the flame arrestor. I think.
I'm confusing the RTP-1 with the Predator. For some reason my brain was thinking that they were the same engine.

[JimN]

I'm confusing the RTP-1 with the Predator. For some reason my brain was thinking that they were the same engine.

I thought you were trying to catch me on the new motors. As I have posted, I stopped working on these in '01 and haven't kept up with all of the new models and details.

[treptowr]

little update. I pulled all the plugs just to inspect them. 3 or 4 of the 8 looked pretty black and wet with gas. The others looked really good. I will replace those when I replace the plug wires. Looks like I'll be ordering the plug wires as I couldn't find anyone locally, including Napa, that carries them..so they say. They didn't seem to interested in helping. The distributor is not loose. Does this mean it could still be out of time? How would an engine just go from running perfect one second, to being out of time the next? Should I wait to get the plug wires before i check the timing, if necessary? I did clean the flame arrestor, it was somewhat dirty.

[JimN]

little update. I pulled all the plugs just to inspect them. 3 or 4 of the 8 looked pretty black and wet with gas. The others looked really good. I will replace those when I replace the plug wires. Looks like I'll be ordering the plug wires as I couldn't find anyone locally, including Napa, that carries them..so they say. They didn't seem to interested in helping. The distributor is not loose. Does this mean it could still be out of time? How would an engine just go from running perfect one second, to being out of time the next? Should I wait to get the plug wires before i check the timing, if necessary? I did clean the flame arrestor, it was somewhat dirty.

If it's not loose, it didn't move when it started to run bad. Leave the plugs out and crank it, then run it if it's in the water. It could have flooded the cylinders due to the flame arrestor being clogged, especially if it had idled for a long time.

If it ran great for all this time, I doubt it's the timing but fouled plugs can make starting dicey. When the fouled plugs were supposed to fire, they didn't and they would normally have helped kick the motor over.

Is your distributor cap seated properly? Did you make note of the cylinder numbers of the fouled plugs? Your firing order is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 and I thought it was interesting that you should use 3, 4 and 8 in that order since that's their reverse order and they're consecutive when cranking.

[treptowr]

Of course I took notes like you suggested :) The bad looking plugs were on cylinders marked 1, 2, 4, and 8 by plug wires. I'll have to admit, my flame arrestor has never looked as good as it does now. I only had a little carb cleaner left then I used some brake cleaner and that thing is shiny silver now. Hope that was OK? I also took a photo of the distributor. Someone seemed to have marked the distributor and then put a corresponding mark on the engine. I'm assuming this was done to indicate where the distributor should be located? The lines mark up well. It seems to be seated properly and nothing is loose. I'll see if I can post my picture. Also, the plugs that I put in there a couple years ago were AC Delco 41-932 Platinum plugs. That's what was in there when I replaced them but I'm not the original owner so I don't know if these are right? By the looks of them when I pulled them, I would guess they were the original plugs.

http://picasaweb.google.com/rtreptow7/Seal#5363329165397711266

ok so photo didn't work but you can get the URL if interested:
http://picasaweb.google.com/rtreptow7/Seal#5363329165397711266

[treptowr]

I just called the dealer that is 75 miles away from me for plug wires. None in stock, would have to order them and take at least a week. The repair guy said it is rare to have to replace plug wires especially in this "new" of a boat? He immediately said sounds like your fuel pump after I described the symptoms. Now do I take it up there, where he said he would be able to look at it today or tomorrow, or order in some plug wires and put new plugs in? If it was starving for fuel, why would my plugs be wet and the boat backfiring? I know I'm looking at $500 plus to have them replace a fuel pump versus getting the $100 aftermarket and doing it myself. Any suggestions.

[JimN]

I just called the dealer that is 75 miles away from me for plug wires. None in stock, would have to order them and take at least a week. The repair guy said it is rare to have to replace plug wires especially in this "new" of a boat? He immediately said sounds like your fuel pump after I described the symptoms. Now do I take it up there, where he said he would be able to look at it today or tomorrow, or order in some plug wires and put new plugs in? If it was starving for fuel, why would my plugs be wet and the boat backfiring? I know I'm looking at $500 plus to have them replace a fuel pump versus getting the $100 aftermarket and doing it myself. Any suggestions.

7 years is long enough. If you take it to them, make it clear that unless it runs perfectly after replacing only the pump, you don't want to be their pincushion. Ask him the same question about wet plugs and backfiring before taking it there.

You didn't answer my question about the distributor cap- is it seated properly? The ones you listed are consecutive in the firing order and if the cap is tilted, the rotor may not pass by their electrodes.

I would check for spark on each of those cylinders. Start by removing the fuel pump fuse or disconnecting the harness from the fuel pump, removing one spark plug and plugging it into each of the affected plug wires, one after the other and placing the spark plug on a grounded part of the motor. You DO NOT want to hold it with your hand- it should have about 50KV on it.

Anyone with a pacemaker should not do this test.

[treptowr]

The cap does not appear to be tilted in any way. Very level. Looks like it hasn't moved at all. Could it be a bad distributor cap? If I knew it was going to get fixed at the dealer, I'd take it there and be done with it. My gut feeling is that I don't have confidence in them after talking to the guy on the phone and him wanting to replace the fuel pump. I guess one good thing is, when it first happened, the engine light and alarm came on so there should be a code they could retrieve, right?

In your above post, I'm assuming you want the fuel pump disabled so it doesn't flood the engine?

[JimN]

The cap does not appear to be tilted in any way. Very level. Looks like it hasn't moved at all. Could it be a bad distributor cap? If I knew it was going to get fixed at the dealer, I'd take it there and be done with it. My gut feeling is that I don't have confidence in them after talking to the guy on the phone and him wanting to replace the fuel pump. I guess one good thing is, when it first happened, the engine light and alarm came on so there should be a code they could retrieve, right?

In your above post, I'm assuming you want the fuel pump disabled so it doesn't flood the engine?

You seem to have lost spark on half of your cylinders, which are consecutive. That really doesn't sound like a fuel pump issue, to me.

Take the cap off and look at it. The underside of the electrodes should all look crusty if it has been on for more than a year. If you see four that aren't crusty, I would be looking at the ignition control (IC) module but not until the codes are read. If they're all crusty, check for spark at the four affected plugs. Swap one wire at a time if you don't have spark.

Yes, the fuse comes out so the motor won't flood.
Personally, I think it's due for a tuneup and while this doesn't entail what it used to, it's still needed occasionally. Also, plug wires occasionally work loose from the plugs and cap. Make sure they're seated completely on the distributor cap and snap onto the plugs.

[treptowr]

I know you mentioned something about spending a lot of time idleing. I do that while filling and emptying ballast, and on Sunday when this happened I was doing it alot because we had to idle a long ways to get out of the shallow bay and was emptying and filling ballast a lot. Is it not good to be at idle in these boats?

I think I'll end up taking this in and at least having the code read. Inquire about a tune-up too as long as it is there. What should a tune-up include?

[JimN]

I know you mentioned something about spending a lot of time idleing. I do that while filling and emptying ballast, and on Sunday when this happened I was doing it alot because we had to idle a long ways to get out of the shallow bay and was emptying and filling ballast a lot. Is it not good to be at idle in these boats?

I think I'll end up taking this in and at least having the code read. Inquire about a tune-up too as long as it is there. What should a tune-up include?

That was more about when the flame arrestor is dirty and clogged. You should easily see light through the screen or vanes.

MC has service intervals just like a new car and boats are often subjected to worse use/conditions so omitting these steps isn't always a good idea. The 100 hour service was probably not done although that would be hard to prove. This is supposed to be repeated every 100 hours. If you have an owner's manual, it's all in there.

A general tuneup/100 hour service for this boat would include, but not be limited to:

Inspect and clean transmission oil cooler
Oil/filter change (if it's due for that)
Cap/rotor/plugs
Clean flame arrestor (done)
Verify base timing
Replace Fuel Filter
Replace PCV valve
Check fuel pressure at Key ON/Engine OFF, Idle, 2000RPM and WOT. This needs to be done on the water, not on the trailer. Along with this, a fuel sample should be taken.
Connect to diagnostic tool for acquiring data- Take Data Snapshot with key ON and while running at previously mentioned speeds. This is a function available on the Tech 1 diagnostic device and should be possible with PC diagnostics.
Inspect impeller and replace as needed.
Inspect throttle and shift linkage- adjust as needed.
Check engine alignment- adjust as needed.
Check propshaft strut and bushings- align and repair as needed.
Check propshaft tolerance for bend


If anyone has the manual for this boat and can fill in the blanks, go ahead. I'm going by memory.

[treptowr]

Boat's on it's way to the dealer. Ran home at lunch and hooked it up and sent it with my wife on it's way. I'll keep you posted on what the diagnosis is. I called the dealer back and ask he call me when they find something out. I'll talk to him about doing the regular maintenance too.

[JimN]

Boat's on it's way to the dealer. Ran home at lunch and hooked it up and sent it with my wife on it's way. I'll keep you posted on what the diagnosis is. I called the dealer back and ask he call me when they find something out. I'll talk to him about doing the regular maintenance too.

Call the dealer and find out how much they estimate the bill will be and have them break it down for you, not a lump sum.

Have them hook it up to collect data first, followed by a check for spark (since you apparently don't have any on four of the cylinders). They probably won't like you telling them how to do their job but this will narrow it down quickly.

I forgot to add Compression test to the list. That should be done, too. If the stored code is 34, that would indicate low vacuum/high MAP voltage and if you have a bad vacuum leak, this can be a symptom along with wet plugs.

If they give you an estimate, have them call when they find anything major, not after the whole job is done and it exceeds the estimate or maxes it out. Most places allow them to go ahead without calling if the total is about 10% over the estimate but a call is required when it's more by a larger percentage. This makes proceeding easier if they don't have to call you with small details and you suddenly aren't available.

[treptowr]

Just got a call from the mechanic. He said the computer saved no codes and it reads out fine. They put it on the water and ran it. Ran great. Ran it all the way up to the rev limiter fine. Started great. I asked about distributor cap and he says it looks good. Seeing they couldn't reproduce it and it stored no codes, he couldn't "fix" it because he doesn't know what to fix. He suggest I run it and when/if it happens again to give them a call. He thought maybe water in the fuel and I could put a can of sea foam in there. I guess it's good no codes were thrown, but I'll be uneasy the next few times I go out boating :(

[JimN]

Just got a call from the mechanic. He said the computer saved no codes and it reads out fine. They put it on the water and ran it. Ran great. Ran it all the way up to the rev limiter fine. Started great. I asked about distributor cap and he says it looks good. Seeing they couldn't reproduce it and it stored no codes, he couldn't "fix" it because he doesn't know what to fix. He suggest I run it and when/if it happens again to give them a call. He thought maybe water in the fuel and I could put a can of sea foam in there. I guess it's good no codes were thrown, but I'll be uneasy the next few times I go out boating :(

Other than possibly wiggling a few wires that may have been funky, the only thing that really changed is the dirty flame arrestor and if it had been run for a long time at idle, I could see it being pretty hard to burn all of the gas. Take a whiff of the oil when you get it back and if it smells strongly of gas, change it, or have them do it if it's not a problem.

Did they saw whether they took the data snapshots I suggested? It's always a good idea- it shows a problem, or not and if you get it back but immediately have a problem with it and it can be repeated, they would be able to see what's different from one time to the next. You could look at it as them using it to cover their azz or just to document what should be documented anyway. There's really no excuse not to- it takes a few button clicks and takes only a few seconds each time.

[treptowr]

I'm not sure what a long time is for idling, but I'm probably guilty of it. This time, I'd guess 15 minutes. I grew up boating with a neighbor who rarely shut his boat off because he had trouble starting it often when he did. I never have problems starting mine, but I think this train of though was etched in to my mind. I didn't realize it could cause other problems. Would be great if it was just the flame arrestor and idling combo that did it. I'll be more cautious of that.

As far as the data snapshot, When I was talking to him I didn't have the internet with your post handy and couldn't recall the correct terminology. I asked if he hooked it up to the computer and read the data? Or something along that line. He said he hooked it up to the computer and everything looked fine and there were no error codes stored. I'm about 15 hours shy of my 50 hour oil change, so I'll just do it now. I usually change twice a season, once in the middle and once before storing. The second change usually only has 20 or 30 hours on it at storage time.

Anything else I can check or do when I'm on the water if the problem happens again that might help pin down what the problem was/is? Again, appreciate all the help and info provided here.

PS. What do you do for a living now? Seems like you have a lot of time logged on here?

[JimN]

I'm not sure what a long time is for idling, but I'm probably guilty of it. This time, I'd guess 15 minutes. I grew up boating with a neighbor who rarely shut his boat off because he had trouble starting it often when he did. I never have problems starting mine, but I think this train of though was etched in to my mind. I didn't realize it could cause other problems. Would be great if it was just the flame arrestor and idling combo that did it. I'll be more cautious of that.

As far as the data snapshot, When I was talking to him I didn't have the internet with your post handy and couldn't recall the correct terminology. I asked if he hooked it up to the computer and read the data? Or something along that line. He said he hooked it up to the computer and everything looked fine and there were no error codes stored. I'm about 15 hours shy of my 50 hour oil change, so I'll just do it now. I usually change twice a season, once in the middle and once before storing. The second change usually only has 20 or 30 hours on it at storage time.

Anything else I can check or do when I'm on the water if the problem happens again that might help pin down what the problem was/is? Again, appreciate all the help and info provided here.

PS. What do you do for a living now? Seems like you have a lot of time logged on here?

Check for spark on all cylinders if it does this again. make sure the plug wires are good (if you clip the pickup on at the distributor and see frequent flashes but not at the plug, you have a bad wire), etc. If the cap/rotor/plugs/wires are all good and you lose spark, it could be the distributor pickup coil or IC module.

As far as time logged in, let's just say business isn't what it was before we all got screwed.

[treptowr]

Yet another update. Took the boat out today when I got home from work. Started fine. Ran it up to 30 mph ran perfect came off plane deciding who wanted to ride first then tried to go again and it bogged down when I hit the throttle. No backfire this time. Just no power. I came back to neutral, was able to idle for a few seconds the boat died and wouldn't start again. Sat for about 10 minutes. There were only a couple people on the lake and one of them was near us and saw what happened and offered a tow in right away as they were leaving so I took it. Tried starting it a few more times while under tow and then once it was on the trailer and still in the water but it just kept turning over and didn't start. No alarms or anything went off this time. Didn't get a chance to check much. What was a little dissapointing was my hour meter read 500.1 when I took it to the dealer and when it died on me today it read 500.3. So they surely didn't run it much :( I ran it back the 160 mile round trip to the dealer and left it in the lot and will call them in the morning. I sure hope it doesn't start for them in the morning and they can find out what the deal is. Frustrating.

[bigmac]

Yet another update. Took the boat out today when I got home from work. Started fine. Ran it up to 30 mph ran perfect came off plane deciding who wanted to ride first then tried to go again and it bogged down when I hit the throttle. No backfire this time. Just no power. I came back to neutral, was able to idle for a few seconds the boat died and wouldn't start again. Sat for about 10 minutes. There were only a couple people on the lake and one of them was near us and saw what happened and offered a tow in right away as they were leaving so I took it. Tried starting it a few more times while under tow and then once it was on the trailer and still in the water but it just kept turning over and didn't start. No alarms or anything went off this time. Didn't get a chance to check much. What was a little dissapointing was my hour meter read 500.1 when I took it to the dealer and when it died on me today it read 500.3. So they surely didn't run it much :( I ran it back the 160 mile round trip to the dealer and left it in the lot and will call them in the morning. I sure hope it doesn't start for them in the morning and they can find out what the deal is. Frustrating.

THAT sounds like fuel pump to me. Same symptoms I had when mine died. When I took it to the dealer (on the 4th of July, no less) he started it and it ran fine. So, he put his 15 year old son in the boat, who ran it around Cross Lake - after about 20 minutes it died. He called in a mechanic from home, they replaced the fuel pump and it's been running fine for the last 170 hours.

See the several recent fuel pump threads. Pull your module and replace the pump with an E2044 from Advance Auto. I think it will help you, not to mention saving you about $500 and a trip to the dealer.

[mtajpa]

My Maristar had a bad connection in the connector at the pump. It would quit and then after 20 minutes or so it fired back up and ran fine for a couple hours. Finally when it would not start I wiggled the connector on top of the fuel pump while my son was cranking and felt the pump start. as soon as I took my hand off it would quit again. Replace the weatherpack connector on top of the pump and haven't had a problem for 20 hours of run time.

Good Luck

[bigmac]

My Maristar had a bad connection in the connector at the pump. It would quit and then after 20 minutes or so it fired back up and ran fine for a couple hours. Finally when it would not start I wiggled the connector on top of the fuel pump while my son was cranking and felt the pump start. as soon as I took my hand off it would quit again. Replace the weatherpack connector on top of the pump and haven't had a problem for 20 hours of run time.

Good Luck

Yeh...good point. He should hear the fuel pump spin up at key-on. If it doesn't, it's likely something electrical.

[JimN]

Yet another update. Took the boat out today when I got home from work. Started fine. Ran it up to 30 mph ran perfect came off plane deciding who wanted to ride first then tried to go again and it bogged down when I hit the throttle. No backfire this time. Just no power. I came back to neutral, was able to idle for a few seconds the boat died and wouldn't start again. Sat for about 10 minutes. There were only a couple people on the lake and one of them was near us and saw what happened and offered a tow in right away as they were leaving so I took it. Tried starting it a few more times while under tow and then once it was on the trailer and still in the water but it just kept turning over and didn't start. No alarms or anything went off this time. Didn't get a chance to check much. What was a little dissapointing was my hour meter read 500.1 when I took it to the dealer and when it died on me today it read 500.3. So they surely didn't run it much :( I ran it back the 160 mile round trip to the dealer and left it in the lot and will call them in the morning. I sure hope it doesn't start for them in the morning and they can find out what the deal is. Frustrating.

They ran it for a whole 12 minutes, eh? Sounds pretty thorough. You have spent more time posting here than they took to run it "on the water".

Time for some free stuff, IMO. They do know how far you went both times for this, right?

[treptowr]

I need to call them in a few minutes here when they open. Not really happy about this. Wish they would of put a little more time in to running it. I can understand if there were no codes and it ran great for them that it would be hard to fix if it wasn't acting up, just wish they would have ran it a little longer.

I could hear the pump kick on whenever I turned the key over and when I had my wife trying to start it up. I did unplug and plug in the connection at the fuel pump module. I think I remember reading on hear that even if you can hear the pump kick in that it doesn't mean it's pumping fuel or enough fuel.

[JimN]

I need to call them in a few minutes here when they open. Not really happy about this. Wish they would of put a little more time in to running it. I can understand if there were no codes and it ran great for them that it would be hard to fix if it wasn't acting up, just wish they would have ran it a little longer.

I could hear the pump kick on whenever I turned the key over and when I had my wife trying to start it up. I did unplug and plug in the connection at the fuel pump module. I think I remember reading on hear that even if you can hear the pump kick in that it doesn't mean it's pumping fuel or enough fuel.

This is exactly why I said they should do the snapshots. EVERY test they do should be documented, including the 4 fuel pressure tests I was taught at MC training. This isn't just stuff I think should be checked, it's what's necessary to do any kind of meaningful diagnostics. How the he11 do they expect to know if it's working when they ran it for 12 minutes? What did they actually test? How can they prove this?

The MC trainers told us that the first four things to do with EVERY service job are:

Verify the customer complaint
Do a visual inspection
Do a wiggle test to see if the complaint can be duplicated/eliminated
Do the diagnostics- this isn't necessarily using the computer, it's any process or test that indicates something, whether it's how tight something is, compression, voltage on a sensor, battery voltage, checking some other value.

I have absolutely no idea how long they had a tech working on the boat but if they didn't document everything they did to it, they have no way to prove it. Intermittent problems are the worst kind but they come up all the time. They can often be duplicated by wiggling wires, running it longer/getting it to normal operating temperature/allowing it to heat soak and sometimes, by pounding on things.

How much was the service bill?

[bigmac]

Well, initial symptoms as described didn't sound like fuel pump failure to me, in that that problem wouldn't normally result in a check engine light, or popping and backfiring, or good idle and die-on-throttle-up. However, the current symptoms sound a lot like fuel pump, including the fact that the ECU stored no error codes from this any of these episodes.

If the engine still won't start, seems like Job 1 for the dealer would be to check fuel pressure. If you still have the boat at home, you can do a quick and rough test by turning the key on, letting the pump spin up, then depress the Schrader valve on the fuel rail and see if there's any pressure in the rail.

I like the concept of photographing the repair process - never seen anyone do that. I took my car to a local body shop once, though, and they have web cams in each repair bay. You can log on and look at progress on your vehicle whenever you want. I thought that was a pretty cool concept.

[treptowr]

Boats at dealer already, again. I did depress the scrader valve while on the water with the key on and got some gas on my finger, but it didn't squirt out under any pressure..not sure if it's suppose to?

Original bill was $94.

I talked to them this morning and after I told him what happened first thing he did say was sounds like a fuel pump we'll have to get a pressure gauge on that. They said they could get to it later this morning. I did ask if he had pumps in stock and he said yes. I'll keep ya posted.

[bigmac]

Boats at dealer already, again. I did depress the scrader valve while on the water with the key on and got some gas on my finger, but it didn't squirt out under any pressure..not sure if it's suppose to?

Original bill was $94.

I talked to them this morning and after I told him what happened first thing he did say was sounds like a fuel pump we'll have to get a pressure gauge on that. They said they could get to it later this morning. I did ask if he had pumps in stock and he said yes. I'll keep ya posted.


If they do end up replacing the fuel pump, seems to me they ought to knock $94 off that bill, and maybe buy you lunch.

[JimN]

Well, initial symptoms as described didn't sound like fuel pump failure to me, in that that problem wouldn't normally result in a check engine light, or popping and backfiring, or good idle and die-on-throttle-up. However, the current symptoms sound a lot like fuel pump, including the fact that the ECU stored no error codes from this any of these episodes.

If the engine still won't start, seems like Job 1 for the dealer would be to check fuel pressure. If you still have the boat at home, you can do a quick and rough test by turning the key on, letting the pump spin up, then depress the Schrader valve on the fuel rail and see if there's any pressure in the rail.

I like the concept of photographing the repair process - never seen anyone do that. I took my car to a local body shop once, though, and they have web cams in each repair bay. You can log on and look at progress on your vehicle whenever you want. I thought that was a pretty cool concept.

If the dealer had a clue, the fuel pressure would be the first thing to check after the visual and the service work order. If it was me, I'd be in their face about whether they keep up with their service training.

[JimN]

Boats at dealer already, again. I did depress the scrader valve while on the water with the key on and got some gas on my finger, but it didn't squirt out under any pressure..not sure if it's suppose to?

Original bill was $94.

I talked to them this morning and after I told him what happened first thing he did say was sounds like a fuel pump we'll have to get a pressure gauge on that. They said they could get to it later this morning. I did ask if he had pumps in stock and he said yes. I'll keep ya posted.

You passed gas?:D

[bigmac]

If the dealer had a clue, the fuel pressure would be the first thing to check after the visual and the service work order. If it was me, I'd be in their face about whether they keep up with their service training.

I agree, they dropped the ball and the customer is paying a price. It's worth being angry about it...

...however...

Now, I'm not a particularly conciliatory kind of guy, but my experience has been that getting all up in their grill, being accusatory and questioning their competence is usually counterproductive, especially when alternative options are limited.

[treptowr]

I hear ya Big Mac, I don't want to burn any bridges here when options are limited. Next closest dealer is about 250 miles round trip.
I'm wondering if the fuel pressure was tested the first time if it would have read out as OK seeing the boat ran fine for them then? Although they didn't test it very long. If it is a fuel pump, would I be out of line asking for the old fuel module? I would like to take the cartridge pump apart like I saw another poster do on a thread in here to see what it looks like. I guess I could also replace the cartridge pump in it and have a whole spare module ready in case of future failure?

Haven't heard anything back yet from the dealer...

[bigmac]

I don't know if there would be a core charge on the removed part, but I sure would want the old module back and for exactly that reason.

[JimN]

I agree, they dropped the ball and the customer is paying a price. It's worth being angry about it...

...however...

Now, I'm not a particularly conciliatory kind of guy, but my experience has been that getting all up in their grill, being accusatory and questioning their competence is usually counterproductive, especially when alternative options are limited.

Well, there's getting in their grill and there's making them understand that with the internet, it's awfully easy to get the correct information for just about everything and when they took a whole 12 minutes out of their busy day to run this boat, they failed the customer. If I were to open a repair shop, I would docoment

Dealers are under pressure for their own survival and cutting costs is badly needed in a lot of cases but cutting costs when someone is trying to diagnose problems about the only things that can be done to cut costs is become more efficient or cut corners. Diagnosis takes time, especially when a lot of steps are needed.

The problem I have with scenarios like this is that the problem wasn't found the first time and the customers have now driven close to 500 miles in an effort to have it fixed. It's going to take at least one more trip and that's just not a good way to do things. Better that they should have kept the boat and worked on it after they were done with the others.

[JimN]

I hear ya Big Mac, I don't want to burn any bridges here when options are limited. Next closest dealer is about 250 miles round trip.
I'm wondering if the fuel pressure was tested the first time if it would have read out as OK seeing the boat ran fine for them then? Although they didn't test it very long. If it is a fuel pump, would I be out of line asking for the old fuel module? I would like to take the cartridge pump apart like I saw another poster do on a thread in here to see what it looks like. I guess I could also replace the cartridge pump in it and have a whole spare module ready in case of future failure?

Haven't heard anything back yet from the dealer...

Did you read your PM?

[treptowr]

just did. you got mail.

[treptowr]

Here's the update. They got the boat. Ran it for a half hour and it ran great...then, it backfired and died. They couldn't get it started, called out another boat to tow it in, but then it started and they idled in. They put in a new fuel pump and filter but it didn't fix the problem. He said no error codes and no alarms went off. When I intially had the problem and said I got an alarm and engine light came on, I could have been mistaken? Maybe when the boat backfired and died maybe the check engine light was on and the beeper on temporarily because the key was turned over but the boat wasn't running? Does that make sense? Anyway, at the time, I was a little frantic about the backfire and loss of power....so maybe it really wasn't an engine alarm I heard? He went on to tell me they don't know what the problem is yet and they are still trouble shooting it. Said they have never seen a problem like this and that it is very unusual for a boat to backfire. What if they just keep throwing parts at it in an attempt to fix it? Do I have to pay for all those parts. I'm worried that if they put in a new fuel pump which is $500+ and it didn't fix the problem, do I get stuck paying for it? Do they put my old one back in? I realize I don't deserve a new free fuel pump but I really didn't need one if mine was working fine. This is getting interesting now.

[scramison]

Here's the update. They got the boat. Ran it for a half hour and it ran great...then, it backfired and died. They couldn't get it started, called out another boat to tow it in, but then it started and they idled in. They put in a new fuel pump and filter but it didn't fix the problem. He said no error codes and no alarms went off. When I intially had the problem and said I got an alarm and engine light came on, I could have been mistaken? Maybe when the boat backfired and died maybe the check engine light was on and the beeper on temporarily because the key was turned over but the boat wasn't running? Does that make sense? Anyway, at the time, I was a little frantic about the backfire and loss of power....so maybe it really wasn't an engine alarm I heard? He went on to tell me they don't know what the problem is yet and they are still trouble shooting it. Said they have never seen a problem like this and that it is very unusual for a boat to backfire. What if they just keep throwing parts at it in an attempt to fix it? Do I have to pay for all those parts. I'm worried that if they put in a new fuel pump which is $500+ and it didn't fix the problem, do I get stuck paying for it? Do they put my old one back in? I realize I don't deserve a new free fuel pump but I really didn't need one if mine was working fine. This is getting interesting now.

It is dependent on whether they called you and you confirmed with them that a new fuel pump is ok. If you told them they should put it in then they will most likely charge you for it. If they just put it in thinking it would fix it then its on them.

I once had bad gas put in my motorcycle, the dealer diagniosed it as bad spark plugs. $300 later they found out the gas was bad and stuck me with the bill to get my bike back. Moral of the story, never confirm work over the phone with a shop unless you know 100% they have the problem figured out or you will be stuck holding the bill.

[treptowr]

NO they didn't confirm it with me. All he ever said was it sounds like it maybe a fuel pump and that they'd have to check the pressure on it and test it out. I called back to have him tell me he changed the fuel pump and it didn't solve the problem.

By the way, think this could be something as simple as bad gas? I got it from a station that I often use for my truck and never had problems. In fact that day, after I filled the boat, probably 10 gallons to fill, I filled up two 5 gallon gas cans thinking I'd add more gas half way through the day. I'd never burn a whole tank, but I try to never run it low on fuel because of suggestions here. Anyway, seeing the boat died and my truck was just under a quarter tank, I dumped the remaining two 5 gallon jugs into my truck and have burnt through that already. No problems there.

[JimN]

Here's the update. They got the boat. Ran it for a half hour and it ran great...then, it backfired and died. They couldn't get it started, called out another boat to tow it in, but then it started and they idled in. They put in a new fuel pump and filter but it didn't fix the problem. He said no error codes and no alarms went off. When I intially had the problem and said I got an alarm and engine light came on, I could have been mistaken? Maybe when the boat backfired and died maybe the check engine light was on and the beeper on temporarily because the key was turned over but the boat wasn't running? Does that make sense? Anyway, at the time, I was a little frantic about the backfire and loss of power....so maybe it really wasn't an engine alarm I heard? He went on to tell me they don't know what the problem is yet and they are still trouble shooting it. Said they have never seen a problem like this and that it is very unusual for a boat to backfire. What if they just keep throwing parts at it in an attempt to fix it? Do I have to pay for all those parts. I'm worried that if they put in a new fuel pump which is $500+ and it didn't fix the problem, do I get stuck paying for it? Do they put my old one back in? I realize I don't deserve a new free fuel pump but I really didn't need one if mine was working fine. This is getting interesting now.

They need to run the boat with the fuel pressure gauge and diagnostic computer connected. Their business is slow- they need to send two techs out with someone who knows how to diagnose this stuff so they can learn it but not necessarily on your boat. Better yet, maybe they could send them to MC training. This is the kind of problem we dealt with at the 'Advanced On-water Diagnosis', where they created problems and we had to find them. All of the boats had "cranks but won't fire" problems and we had to go through the sequence correctly. If we asked for a part, they asked why. If we gave the wrong answer, they said "Nope. Back ordered", or just refused and told us to try again.

You have a distributor, right? If the cap and rotor are old, replace them (I don't remember if you said this was done). Bad/old plug wires can cause cross-fire because they become semi-conductive and with the coil putting out something north of 50,000V, it can arc to an adjacent plug wire, which causes the plug to fire at the wrong time. If that cylinder has just taken fuel/air in, it will ignite and backfire. If that cylinder has combustible gases in it and the exhaust port is open, it will backfire through the exhaust. Another problem that is extremely rare but has happened, and was the only problem the group I was in couldn't find, is arcing down through the distributor rotor. This eventually bores a tiny path down to the rotor shaft and when it finally has an open path, running it hard causes it to arc when the conditions are right and it sounds like a big hammer is hitting the motor.

[treptowr]

yes, I have a distributor. Distributor and wires are at least 3 years old, maybe older as I have only owned the boat for 3 years. I did mention plug wires to either the mechanic or service manager and they said they don't even carry them in stock it's such a rare problem. In fact, I initially called them just to pick up some plug wires and start there with trouble shooting. I think I may have mentioned that in this thread somewhere. I guess I'll wait to see what tomorrow's news brings.

[JimN]

yes, I have a distributor. Distributor and wires are at least 3 years old, maybe older as I have only owned the boat for 3 years. I did mention plug wires to either the mechanic or service manager and they said they don't even carry them in stock it's such a rare problem. In fact, I initially called them just to pick up some plug wires and start there with trouble shooting. I think I may have mentioned that in this thread somewhere. I guess I'll wait to see what tomorrow's news brings.

Do they have a timing light?

Sorry, of course they should have one but if they see nice, even flashes on some wires and lots of extra flashes on others, it says the wires are bad. Plug wires go bad all the time and saying they're dedicated to service while not stocking something that can be used on motors for any of the three lines of boats they carry is a pretty weak argument, IMO. Ironically, all three brands come with Indmar motors. If they run it inside and turn the lights out, I'd bet they'll see arcing between some of the wires.

Hmmm.

[nmcjr]

You should not be paying for them to randomly put in new parts until they stumble onto the problem. As JimN mentioned, a fuel pressure test would have easily determined whether the fuel pump was bad or not. You should clarify this with them before they proceed, but as mentioned there are troubleshooting steps that can isloate what is causing the issue-throwing parts at it is not the answer, especially on your dime.

[treptowr]

Hopefully putting this problem and thread to rest here. They think they figured out the problem. Ignition Control Module $97.62. They put my fuel pump back in but I did get charged for a fuel pump gasket, only $9.69 They also put on a new cap and rotor. Total with labor and tax was about $780. If it's fixed, I'm happy. I put some new spark plugs in tonight too. Will order up some plug wires. Hope to water test it tomorrow. since I dropped it off last, they put 1.2 hours on the boat testing it. Is there a way to test the ICM they pulled out to make sure it's dead? Anyway, I'll post one more time on this after I get a chance to run the boat..hopefully tomorrow weather permitting. Thanks for all the great help and advice here.

[Smoothie]

$800????? Maybe I am cheap but that seems steep. How does that work out if they worked on it for 1.2 hours?

[treptowr]

Just to clarify, the hour meter had 1.2 more hours on it then when I dropped it off. I think labor was closer to 5 hours billed. about, don't have the invoice handy right now.

Also, Went out last night and put just over two hours on the engine and it ran great. No problems. So it appears so far that it was the ignition control module. Thanks again to all here.

[treptowr]

I was hoping I wouldn't have to revisit this thread. Went out tonight. Got 20 minutes in and was pulling a rider up. The boat started to bog down, lose power, sounded like it was missing. I let off the throttle, gave it gas again and it pulled the rider up fine. Ran for about 20 more minutes. Ran fine. Switched riders. Then while at speed (20mph) it started to lose power and miss. I tried to give it more gas and it just wouldn't go. No backfire this time. It didn't completely die. I let off the throttle, picked up my rider and headed toward the landing as I was quite a ways a way and only a couple boats out in case I needed a tow. It ran fine all the way back to the landing. Varied my speed from 38 to 20. I tried stopping and starting a few times just to try and reproduce it, no luck. Ran it for probably another 20 minutes right near the landing and couldn't reproduce it. I'm afraid to take it back out and I'm afraid to take it back to the dealer. Almost $900 in the boat now and it's still not running right. :(

[mtajpa]

Sorry to hear your still having problems. I still think it could be an intermitent connection at the fuel pump. My pump would not completely quit. Some of the time it would cycle off and on long enough to keep the boat running but not as it should. I found my bad connection when the boat started to cut out and wiggled the pump connection right on top of the pump while my son was driving. We then could make it cutout and pick back up by just wiggling the connector. I replaced the weatherpack connectors and havent had a problem since. The connectors you can get at NAPA (called Handy pack) or Pep boys (called Metric pack).

[treptowr]

mtajpa, I'll check that out. I'm going to get out and run the boat again and see if it will stall and then start the wiggle testing. I do have a pair of plug wires ordered too in case that's the issue.

[treptowr]

I just got off the phone with the mechanic. He said that when the boat died and wouldn't start, it still had good fuel pressure. I think this would eliminate the connection at the fuel pump being the problem.

[JimN]

I just got off the phone with the mechanic. He said that when the boat died and wouldn't start, it still had good fuel pressure. I think this would eliminate the connection at the fuel pump being the problem.

I'd still make sure it's a good, positive fit. I would also look at the individual terminals on the pump plug, injectors, sensors, boat plug and ECM.

[treptowr]

So I call to find the boat is done. They think it was a bad connection or corrosion in the wiring harness. Only talked to manager, not mechanic. They didn't get a chance to water test it and planned on doing it first thing Monday. I asked if it would be OK if I came up and took it on the water today (Saturday) seeing it was going to be, and is, a beautiful day. Got about 20-30 minutes in and it died again. It restarted and I was able to idle about 5 minutes and then it died completely. Wouldn't restart. The Marina came out and towed us in. They'll be looking at it Monday again. Today is beautiful, tomorrow is suppose to be better and I'm still boatless. Ugh.

[treptowr]

Still keeping this thread alive...Just got a call. They think it was the coil. Replaced that and put 2 hours on the boat and it ran fine. Hmmmm....we'll see. Hope to get it tonight and put some serious hours on it in the next few days weather permitting. Will keep the thread updated and hopefully be able to put this issue to rest.

[treptowr]

Quick update. Got about 7 hours on the boat and it's running good. Looks like it was the coil.

[lav]

Good to here maybe you still can get some good use out of it yet this summer