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View Full Version : Fake a lake before or after tranny cooler


rholmes
07-15-2009, 05:12 PM
So during maintenance this past spring, I replaced the piece of hose that ran from the water intake to the the tranny cooler. We took the boat out and three weeks ago and and it ran okay. Had to give it gas to start everytime, but fine other than that. Upon returning to the docks 5 hours later, I gave the old girl one good run and dropped the throttle to about 4k rpms for about a 45sec-1 minute ride. Upon reaching the no wake zone, it wouldn't stay idling. Got her loaded up and went home. We took the 4th of July weekend off, and went back out last weekend. In preparation for, I had to fix the idle issue, so I replaced the fuel/water separator filter and the fuel pump filter. Previous owner said he had done them right before I got it, and I only used the boat once last year (longer story), so i never checked. To say they were sot is an understatement, more like disintegrated. No wonder the idle had gone to he!!. Upon affixing my fake a lake I created, I was unable to get the hose off of the raw water intake. SO, I pulled the hose off after the tranny cooler and went from there. Fired her up for about 15 or so minutes (in neutral of course) and tried to diagnose problem. Couldn't fix the issue, so I reset the carb to zero, then backed the needles back out and that fixed the idle, but not the need to give it gas to get her started. My wife was out picking up chinese for dinner, so I had her swing by the auto store and pick up a can of seafoam. Foamed the engine, let her sit, and then cranked her up for another 30 minutes. Idle fixed, no gas needed to start her up.

I was cleaning up to fix everything and grabbed the oil cooler to replace the hose back onto and about gave the cooler a cool new wrap job of all my skin. It was HOT!! Felt the hoses, the were quite warm too. Nothing I could do then. Fast forward to Sunday, took her out. I checked the tranny fluid, it was fine. We ran all day and experienced rare minor drive slipping only when clicked in idle. Wouldn't happen in reverse, only drive. While wakeboarding it pulled great. I took a go and my sister pulled me, she said it felt like it slipped a couple times. I couldn't get it to slip at all, only the occasional one when idling.

Checked fluid, it looked fine.

Got home and I decided to wash the boat. I mean really wash it. Took three hours. Cushions were off, I was spraying a lot. I left the cover off to let it dry. Went out Monday midday, still damp. Then is starts raining. So it got soaked again. I went yesterday to check on the drying process, and opened the hatch after jumping on to let it air out. I decided then to pull the tranny dip stick. I found "glue" up around the rubber stopper, but the fluid looked okay. Not as red as new, but not frothy or milky or white at all. cleaned the area, hopped down and spun the prop a few times, then pulled the stick again. Same thing, fluid looks okay.

I am going to change the fluid, that's a given, but I am wondering if I damaged the tranny cooler or tranny by running the boat in neutral for probably 30-45 minutes with no water through the cooler. Oil is fine in the engine, no oil in bilge, what do you guys think?

Sorry for the long story, just figured I'ld give all the history. And man, I love seafoam. I've used it on so many things, but I get a kick everytime!

Footin
07-15-2009, 05:42 PM
I think your ok, change the fluid as it may be burnt. Does it smell funny?

These transmission are pretty tuff.

rholmes
07-29-2009, 02:58 PM
Well follow up to my concern. We took the boat back out this past weekend after topping of the fluid in the tranny. Cruised around for 30 minutes. Parked in a cove for a couple hours while we suntanned and the kiddies swam. Packed things up to start wakeboarding, tubing, etc. We left the cove trying to pull a wakeboarder up. Dropped the throttle, and at about 15 mph, the tranny slipped. Rider fell, turned back around to go try again. She took four tries attempting to get up, each time the tranny would slip when in idle much like before. On fifth try, it sounded like we were grinding the gears in a truck. This happened around 12-15 mph. We circled around to pick up the boarder who fell, and I popped the engine box to look at the fluid level. It was at the bottom hash, pink with some elmers glue along the top of the dipstick. No fluid other than typical cup or so of water in the bilge, and there was no oil sheen to it.

SO, the only thing I can think of is that fake a laking and bypassing the cooler caused the temps to get high enough that it did pop the cooler. Luckily it is a fairly cheap deal from skidim.

My question now is to clean the tranny out and flush it a few times to get the water out, do I need to drive the boat to do so or having it idle in the drive way will suffice for "cleansing" it?

Thanks.

JimN
07-29-2009, 03:15 PM
I don't like Fake A Lake. I like running the hose directly into the raw water side of the oil cooler on the models that had it before the raw water pump and to the inlet of the raw water pump on the ones where it was after the RWP. If not that way, I use a 1-1/4' hose (non-collapsing type) connected to the same places, dipped into a container that's a minimum of 10 gallons, with continuous water supply. The hose would have a shut off so I could get to it without climbing out of the boat. You can see how fast the water is drawn into the raw water pump (or not) and shut it down sooner if it's not.

You can't get an oil cooler hot enough to melt the solder joints without killing your motor. It takes 500+ degrees to melt that solder and by that time, your transmission oil would be toast, your transmission would be on its last legs and you would definitely smell bad things.

As long as the motor is running, the transmission pump is working. If you put it in gear for long, you'll melt the strut bushings.

cmw
07-29-2009, 03:15 PM
Don't mean to sound stupid, but what is seafoam used for?

rholmes
07-29-2009, 03:31 PM
I say fake a lake, but it is actually a water hose connected to the raw water intake. I bought a standard female water hose end that had a 1/2 or 5/8 thread, attached it to a black iron nipple, upsized it to 1 1/4 size and then attach from there. Last season, I would pull the hose off of the raw water intake barb and clamp onto my improvised piece. I replaced the hose end of season last year, and it is now too tight to slide off of the barb, so I disconnected after the tranny cooler and hooked from there.

I don't know how in the world the cooler failed then. It is free of obstruction. It was a salt water boat before I got it, and everything copper on the boat is or was a nice shade of green when I got it.

Seafoam is a wonderful marvel mystery type of fluid that is added to oil, fuel, etc. The main active ingredient is acetone. Here is an example of what happens when you use seafoam: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X832d4MtYUc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-4EfjUU5o4&feature=related
It supposedly burns off the carbon buildup in the engine. I have used it in my vehicles in the past and always had improved performance afterwards. It worked really well on the boat.

I do need to get some no collapsible hose, I do have problems with that occasionlly.

Craig
07-29-2009, 03:36 PM
Idling in the driveway should have not have any effect on transmission temp. Your transmission is not moving in the driveway , so I'm not sure how it would matter if the fake a lake is before or after the tranny cooler. My hose hookup is after the cooler, I am not at all concerned about burning up the transmission.

Did you have the engine cover up while you were idling the motor? Could the sun and radiative heat from the engine block caused the cooler to heat up?

My cooler was busted when I got my boat. Per JimN's recommendations I replaced the cooler, drained the lines and sucked all the fluid out of the tranny that I could and replaced with new. I ran the boat then did it again. I keep an eye on it now but have had nothing but perfect looking fluid since and I will continue to change it annually.

I'm speculating, but i would think a good deal of thermal cycling could bust the solder joints in the cooler pretty easily. If it ever got hot enough to burn your hand then you immediately flushed it with water (e.g. shutting the boat down with the fake a lake hose still running so the hot cooler is suddenly cooled by the water from the hose) it could have broken it.

JimN
07-29-2009, 03:41 PM
I say fake a lake, but it is actually a water hose connected to the raw water intake. I bought a standard female water hose end that had a 1/2 or 5/8 thread, attached it to a black iron nipple, upsized it to 1 1/4 size and then attach from there. Last season, I would pull the hose off of the raw water intake barb and clamp onto my improvised piece. I replaced the hose end of season last year, and it is now too tight to slide off of the barb, so I disconnected after the tranny cooler and hooked from there.

I don't know how in the world the cooler failed then. It is free of obstruction. It was a salt water boat before I got it, and everything copper on the boat is or was a nice shade of green when I got it.

You say it was a salt water boat and the copper was green like the green would protect the copper (or brass, in this case). Salt doesn't care what color the brass is, if it's in contact with it, it'll rot. Was the cooler bulging? If it was, it froze.

Also, did you check the cooler's inlet for debris? That's supposed to be checked every time the boat goes out but nobody does it that often.

Did you connect the hose to the raw water pump or the oil cooler?

JimN
07-29-2009, 03:48 PM
Don't mean to sound stupid, but what is seafoam used for?

It stabilizes fuel, cleans fuel systems, can be used to remove sludge from a crankcase, loosens sticky lifters and rings, gets rid of foot fungus and clears up the heartbreak of psoriasis. OK, I made the last two up but it's a good fuel system cleaner and stabilizer. If my motor had sludge in it or sticky rings/lifters, I'd probably try it.

rholmes
07-29-2009, 05:01 PM
You say it was a salt water boat and the copper was green like the green would protect the copper (or brass, in this case). Salt doesn't care what color the brass is, if it's in contact with it, it'll rot. Was the cooler bulging? If it was, it froze.

Also, did you check the cooler's inlet for debris? That's supposed to be checked every time the boat goes out but nobody does it that often.

Did you connect the hose to the raw water pump or the oil cooler?

No, I meant that there was corrosion on many parts of the boat that were or are corrosion. Fully aware that green doesn't mean "go" when it comes to brass/copper. The cooler isn't bulging, and when we first got the boat, the drain port on the cooler would weep slightly. I removed it, and a portion of the threads were a stripped. So I applied some plumbers teflon tape and reinstalled, no more weeping since.

I did check the cooler's inlet for debris, in fact I do regularly for the specific fact that one of the bars on the strainer is cracked. I am monitoring it carefully, I had an old boat over heat when we had the pickup get blocked once.

In the past, I always connected the hose by removing the hose from the water water pick up at the hull. Since I installed the new hose and it is a much nicer tight fit (I can't get it off the barbs) I installed it after the tranny cooler. See pic, it isn't completely up to date as it is an old one from when I first started the restoration, but you can get the idea of where I mean.

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l256/rholmes69/1990%20Maristar/trannycoolerhookup-1.jpg

boyd
07-29-2009, 11:29 PM
OK. So is it safe to attach the water hose to the left (see pic on former post).
I have dont this many times because getting to the hose coming out of the floor is too difficult to get to.
I always assumed both the lines going to the cooler were transmission lines. And since the transmission isn't running, I figured it was OK. Is one of them an oil cooler?
Can you run for 15 minutes without putting anything in danger. I usually do this doing winterization process.

Thanks,
BOYD

rholmes
07-29-2009, 11:48 PM
That is what I am trying to find out. When the engine is running, the transmission pump is pumping and sending fluid through the cooler. I guess the debate is how hot is it getting and depending on the condition of the cooler, can it cause the cooler to fail if it is not being cooled. Both the lines on the cooler are in a cyclical system; one brings the oil to the cooler and the other returns it to the tranny.

From what I understand Jim is saying, if the cooler is in good shape, there is nothing to worry about.

east tx skier
07-29-2009, 11:59 PM
I can't get my rw hose off the thru-hull barb either. I just picked up some flexible pvc tubing at the hardware store, removed the rw hose from the hull side of the transmission cooler, attached the pvc hose and dropped the other end in a bucket. Let a garden hose feed the bucket and the engine pulls what it needs. You could also get a barb with a garden hose fitting for the other end of that pvc hose and attach easily that way if you wanted to forego the bucket.

JimN
07-30-2009, 09:14 AM
When I started working on these, we removed the hose from the inlet side of the cooler because we had a container pulling water water from a container (and a hose filling it). That way, we could rev it up and still draw more gpm than what comes from a hose. As long as the RPMs don't get too high, running it on a hose is OK.

Any time water is seen in the transmission oil, the oil cooler should be pressure tested for leaks.If it does leak, there's seldom a good reason to replace it because it can be repaired by any radiator shop.

Bdraj
08-02-2009, 12:48 PM
I have found a much easier way than fake a lake. I took a plunger head and drilled out where the handle screwed into it. I then attached a male fitting that would accept a standard hose thread. When I need to run the boat in the driveway, I put the plunger head over the RW opening on the bottom of the hull and support it with a stick. Turn on the water and you have a virtual lake without having to disassemble anything. All you're for under $10. When I winterize, I fist drain the engine of coolant, then I remove the RW hose from the hull intake fitting and place the hose in a 5 gal bucket with antifreeze. I run the engine to bring in the antifreeze and fog the engine. Done

JimN
08-02-2009, 01:13 PM
I have found a much easier way than fake a lake. I took a plunger head and drilled out where the handle screwed into it. I then attached a male fitting that would accept a standard hose thread. When I need to run the boat in the driveway, I put the plunger head over the RW opening on the bottom of the hull and support it with a stick. Turn on the water and you have a virtual lake without having to disassemble anything. All you're for under $10. When I winterize, I fist drain the engine of coolant, then I remove the RW hose from the hull intake fitting and place the hose in a 5 gal bucket with antifreeze. I run the engine to bring in the antifreeze and fog the engine. Done

A plunger with a stick- how is that different? The plunger already comes with a stick and it's not adjustable, like a Fake A Lake. The only other difference is that you don't use a fitting for attaching the hose to yours.

After being in the position of running several customer boats with a Fake A Lake and having it fall over for one reason or another, I'll stick with connecting a hose to the raw water side of the oil cooler with a constant supply of a larger volume of water. It takes less than half a minute to connect, I can see if the supply has stopped and I don't need to worry about whether a customer's boat is going to overheat while I'm working on it. Besides- I don't want to rely on someone else telling me that the oil cooler is clear when it's not. Either way, you know it would be my fault if it isn't, right?

Better to be sure than having something be "my" fault.

BriEOD
08-02-2009, 01:32 PM
Get a perko flush pro and a chrome thru hull fitting on the transom. Screw on the garden hose and let'r rip.:cool:

bigmac
08-02-2009, 01:38 PM
IMHO, this looks like a better idea than the Flush Pro.

http://www.forespar.com/onlineCatalog/images/43-engineFlushOutValve.jpg

http://www.forespar.com/onlineCatalog/2009/Marelon/marelon_engineFlushOut2009.shtml