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BriEOD
06-15-2009, 07:31 PM
Got one of these (http://bluesea.com/category/2/productline/overview/387)that I used for a few weeks and didn't like it. It works fine. It is $100 new at West Marine. I'll take $50 and shipping.

First come first serve.

Thx,
B

nmcjr
06-16-2009, 12:18 AM
Just out of curiosity, what didn't you like about it? I put one in this year and have been really happy with it....

BriEOD
06-16-2009, 07:14 AM
If one of the batteries drops below 10.8 volts the relay stays in its natural state (open) and the alternator won't charge the second/third battery. In my case, I spend a lot of time with my stereo (9 speakers and 2 Kicker amps) on while not running (hours) and this became a recurring problem. I went with a different solution.

Sodar
06-16-2009, 09:01 AM
If one of the batteries drops below 10.8 volts the relay stays in its natural state (open) and the alternator won't charge the second/third battery. In my case, I spend a lot of time with my stereo (9 speakers and 2 Kicker amps) on while not running (hours) and this became a recurring problem. I went with a different solution.

Where did you get this info? I just spoke to Blue Seas last week after I read another post of yours stating this. Blue Seas said that the relay closes when ever Bank A is experiencing a charge... no matter what the voltage in Bank B is. Were you driving down the voltage on Bank A, below 10.8 volts also?

4 weekends now, using the ACR and not an issue yet. Guess I lucked out!

Good Luck with the sale... quite a deal for someone!

BriEOD
06-16-2009, 09:49 AM
Where did you get this info? I just spoke to Blue Seas last week after I read another post of yours stating this. Blue Seas said that the relay closes when ever Bank A is experiencing a charge... no matter what the voltage in Bank B is. Were you driving down the voltage on Bank A, below 10.8 volts also?

4 weekends now, using the ACR and not an issue yet. Guess I lucked out!

Good Luck with the sale... quite a deal for someone!

Uh...try the user's manual.;)

Long story short, if the LED is blinking while the engine is running the relay is not energized/closed. Furthermore, it notes the 10.8v safeguard/PITA/whatever.

So, $50 come and get it.

BriEOD
06-16-2009, 09:52 AM
Where did you get this info? I just spoke to Blue Seas last week after I read another post of yours stating this. Blue Seas said that the relay closes when ever Bank A is experiencing a charge... no matter what the voltage in Bank B is. Were you driving down the voltage on Bank A, below 10.8 volts also?

4 weekends now, using the ACR and not an issue yet. Guess I lucked out!

Good Luck with the sale... quite a deal for someone!

http://bluesea.com/files/resources/instructions/990170140.pdf

See bullet 5....

Sodar
06-16-2009, 11:07 AM
http://bluesea.com/files/resources/instructions/990170140.pdf

See bullet 5....

That is correct, but if you keep the A bank battery at normal condition the relay will close. What the heck would the point of an isolator be if it did not close when the Aux. battery voltage dips?

They said that as long as the A Bank battery is maintained between 10.8 volts and 21.6volts that the relay will close... independent of the Bank B battery voltage. Have you spoke to Blue Seas?

BriEOD
06-16-2009, 11:17 AM
Nope, and don't want to. My starting battery was fine. I decided to keep it simple. I should have stuck with my initial thought process when I planned this out.

Sodar
06-16-2009, 11:20 AM
Nope, and don't want to. My starting battery was fine. I decided to keep it simple. I should have stuck with my initial thought process when I planned this out.

Sorry for screwing up your original plan! :o

nmcjr
06-16-2009, 11:50 AM
Sodar, do you also have the red Blue Seas switch? They sell a kit with a switch and the ACR. If so, there is a "combine" position that allows you to manually combine the batteries in the case you reach 10.8V. Incidentally, the new JL HD amps also shut off at around 10.8V, so that works well so I know it is time to manually combine the batteries. (Although this has not yet been an issue.)

brucemac
06-16-2009, 12:27 PM
i'm not sure i totally understand brieod's problem, but i do know i chose not to use the bluesea or the acr "kit" with the switch because there was no way to combine both batteries for start assit even with the switch. at least that's how i understood it when i spoke with them. the switch that comes with the kit is either OFF, On 1, or Combine. there's no "both" like some of their other switches. the design of the ACR is such that the circuit diconnects the 2nd battery(s) during start to "prevent damage to sensitive electronics". this is i'm sure nice for some, but there wasn't really any way to make it work like i wanted. i've only got two batteries atm and have noticed that i can really only get about a day out of my stereo battery. even with riding, cruising, etc, it's not fully charging the 2nd battery back up so i'm considering eliminating my surepower 1314 seperator all together and adding a 3rd battery, possibly 4th (2-3 for the stereo) and simply charging them off the water after every outing. i don't currently have the money to buy the necessary charging system upgrade. fwiw, the surepower has an optional "start assist" that senses voltage on both batteries, if battery 1 is low and battery 2 is capable of providing assistance, it will allow a short "burst" to aid in starting. so far i've been happy with my 1314, with my only complaint being the looks of it.

/edit
brieod, i'm by no means an expert and don't know a lot about this stuff, and you may not wish to talk about it anymore, but were you using all of your batteries to provide juice for your stereo? if you're NOT then i'm not sure i understand why you'd ever be down below 10.8 on your start battery which would engage "lockout". if you are using all of them, if you re-think that strategy and put just the stereo system on your 2nd and 3rd batteries, it would eliminate that problem. the way i have mine setup, i have all the MC stuff, bilge, blower, dash, ecm, etc. on 1st battery and then my stereo, amps, eq, ipod on the 2nd battery bypassing the ignition switch and start battery. just a thought.

nmcjr
06-16-2009, 12:42 PM
I did not attach the positive wire that disconnects mine while starting, as I don't think that is a big deal. The blue seas switch in the combine position would provide starter assistance in this case. However, I added 100A fuses on the positive leads of mine so I don't think 100A is enough to start the boat. So, I just carry jumper cables and can jump from one to the other in the very unlikely case that I kill my starter battery.

As a side note the reason I added the 100A fuses is that a friend of mine accidentally attached his two batteries positive to negative, which didn't cause any sparking at the time, since the engine wasn't running, but when the relay combined it started a fire since they were short-circuited to each other. Not a likely scenario, but I figured better safe than sorry--I like to have fuses on all my positive leads.

bxroads
06-17-2009, 08:10 AM
I just finished the install on my system (Wetsounds Syn 4 and Kicker 750.1). The only thing left to do is get the battery situation resolved. I am currently on just the starting battery. This thread has me really scratching my head wondering which direction to go.

Brian, what are you going to do now?

BriEOD
06-17-2009, 10:07 AM
I went with the Borg Warner relay Diesel suggested. I thought about it long and hard. My conclusion was he has WAY more invested into his system than I do and is running three batteries. He hasn't had any problems.

I also upgraded my alternator.

BriEOD
06-17-2009, 05:10 PM
Item is sold and someone else's problem...good riddance.

bxroads
06-18-2009, 04:13 PM
I just read through the Official Dual Battery Thread. I'm going Diesel's relay route and nobody is talking me out of it like they did Brian!

What is the best auxiliary battery type? Deep cycle or starter battery?

How do I know my alternator amp rating? If I need a higher capacity, where do I buy another alternator?

Thanks!

brucemac
06-18-2009, 04:33 PM
no offense, but errrr i wish you would have taken the time to explain a little more in detail why you were seeing 10.8V on your starting battery. i'm simply trying to understand for my self specifically what your setup was and why it was locking out the aux battery (not charging it). the only conclusion i can come to is that you were somehow using both batteries for the stereo?

Sodar
06-18-2009, 04:46 PM
Either 1 of 2 things happened after talking to Blue Seas.

1) Bank A Battery was below 10.8 volts

2) He connected the starting isolation to the purple wire of the ignition switch. If you connect to the purple wire of the iginition switch, it will provide power to the relay the whole time the engine is on and will not allow the relay to close. In this scenario, the LED blinks indicating that the connection is not closed.

I am by no means trying to protect my stance. The Blue Seas has worked great for me. I could really care less what product is used on everyone's particular boat. I am basically just trying to figure out if these issues that Brian experienced are something that I will experience and if they are, do something to make sure that they do not.

To be honest, I am feeling kind of like I just got kicked in the gut for lending the idea that the Blue Seas was an alternative to the Borg Warner. Sorry if you guys feel that I caused the problems or lended you false information. But seriously, you guys are big boys and can make any decision you wish.

nmcjr
06-18-2009, 05:06 PM
Sodar, my understanding is the ACR senses both charge (14V) and undervoltage (10.8) on both batteries and there is no notion of main and aux battery--Blue Seas told you otherwise? If so, I suppose it makes a difference which post each battery is connected to?

bxroads, you will want a deep cycle for a dedicated stereo battery. I went with a Stinger battery because it has twice the Ah rating of an Optima Yellow top, so it is like two batteries in one. Regardless the brand you choose, be sure to look at the Ah rating, as that will give you a good comparison of capacity when the engine is not running.

As to the alternator, mine has been fine with the stock one so far, and I am running a Pioneer Premier, 600W amp and a JL HD 600/4, to put it in perspective.

bxroads
06-18-2009, 05:10 PM
Sodar, I was joking around. In theory I see the Blue Seas as being the better alternative. I've also found that the KISS principal works! I'm going with a "dumb" relay until its a problem.

funk
06-18-2009, 05:21 PM
Not to muck the water up more but I went with the blue seas "add a battery" setup that came with a switch as well. http://bluesea.com/category/2/productline/overview/329 What would be the purpose or use of this switch?
I too have had no known issues but do not want to discover them one late afternoon on the water.

brucemac
06-18-2009, 05:21 PM
Either 1 of 2 things happened after talking to Blue Seas.

1) Bank A Battery was below 10.8 volts

2) He connected the starting isolation to the purple wire of the ignition switch. If you connect to the purple wire of the iginition switch, it will provide power to the relay the whole time the engine is on and will not allow the relay to close. In this scenario, the LED blinks indicating that the connection is not closed.

I am by no means trying to protect my stance. The Blue Seas has worked great for me. I could really care less what product is used on everyone's particular boat. I am basically just trying to figure out if these issues that Brian experienced are something that I will experience and if they are, do something to make sure that they do not.

To be honest, I am feeling kind of like I just got kicked in the gut for lending the idea that the Blue Seas was an alternative to the Borg Warner. Sorry if you guys feel that I caused the problems or lended you false information. But seriously, you guys are big boys and can make any decision you wish.

yeah, really i'm not trying beat a dead horse at all. i seriously am trying to understand it. and maybe i'll call them. i honestly am curious more than anything. in order to "safegaurd sensitive electronics" or however they put it, don't you have to connect the wire to the purple ignition wire so that it senses a start and isolates during the start? it has to sense a start somehow. i'm pretty sure i was told by them that this battery seperation during start was a timed interval and that after that period of time, given that the charging system was doing it's thing and that the primary battery was above a certain threshold, it would combine and charge both. i guess it's not that big of a deal and i'll just let it go, i was just hoping brian would give some more details.

brucemac
06-18-2009, 05:47 PM
Not to muck the water up more but I went with the blue seas "add a battery" setup that came with a switch as well. http://bluesea.com/category/2/productline/overview/329 What would be the purpose or use of this switch?
I too have had no known issues but do not want to discover them one late afternoon on the water.

i called Blue Sea and have a handle on it now. funk, i bet you're fine.

the add-a-battery kit with the switch is the only way to get "emergency start" by manually cominbing batteries with the switch. it bypasses the entire ACR/start isolation and combines the batteries. the ACR is not capable of handling the loads that's why it isn't just one product. the ACR by itself is not capable of combining for emergency start.

the ACR start sensing wire has to be connected the "momentary positive" wire on the ignition. (now what color wire, or what it's labled, I have no idea, but it must not be the purple ign wire).

if you have the sense wire from the ACR like sodar suggested connected to the ignition wire that's always on, it will always lock out the aux bank.

i feel much better now. ;)

so funk in position 1, your ACR relay is inline and combining while charging system is on and isolating/seperating when the voltage thresholds are met.

kind of wish i would have bought that kit, but ahhh well. mine's working good.

Sodar
06-18-2009, 05:54 PM
So the only time you would use the manual switch, would be when both batts are low and you want to combine them to start manually, correct?

BriEOD
06-18-2009, 05:57 PM
Either 1 of 2 things happened after talking to Blue Seas.

1) Bank A Battery was below 10.8 volts

2) He connected the starting isolation to the purple wire of the ignition switch. If you connect to the purple wire of the iginition switch, it will provide power to the relay the whole time the engine is on and will not allow the relay to close. In this scenario, the LED blinks indicating that the connection is not closed.

I am by no means trying to protect my stance. The Blue Seas has worked great for me. I could really care less what product is used on everyone's particular boat. I am basically just trying to figure out if these issues that Brian experienced are something that I will experience and if they are, do something to make sure that they do not.

To be honest, I am feeling kind of like I just got kicked in the gut for lending the idea that the Blue Seas was an alternative to the Borg Warner. Sorry if you guys feel that I caused the problems or lended you false information. But seriously, you guys are big boys and can make any decision you wish.

It's not your fault Cam. I decided to go with after you posted yours. I sold it for what I bought it for...just frustration.

Bruce...my starting battery was showing 11.9 volts, it was hooked up right. I'm not a elec engineer, but was on a Bomb Squad for 8 years--I know electricity pretty well. The thing didn't work right....period.

funk
06-18-2009, 06:00 PM
i called Blue Sea and have a handle on it now. funk, i bet you're fine.

the add-a-battery kit with the switch is the only way to get "emergency start" by manually cominbing batteries with the switch. it bypasses the entire ACR/start isolation and combines the batteries. the ACR is not capable of handling the loads that's why it isn't just one product.

the ACR start sensing wire has to be connected the "momentary positive" wire on the ignition. (now what color wire, or what it's labled, I have no idea, but it must not be the purple ign wire).

if you have the sense wire from the ACR like sodar suggested connected to the ignition wire that's always on, it will always lock out the aux bank.

i feel much better now. ;)

so funk in position 1, your ACR relay is inline and combining while charging system is on and isolating/seperating when the voltage thresholds are met.

kind of wish i would have bought that kit, but ahhh well. mine's working good.

Thanks for the investigation work, brucemac. I did not hook up the ignition wire due to confusion and it listed as "optional". I will test the purple wire though and get it hooked up, I think.. Purple ignition wire should be the momentary positive though, right?

funk
06-18-2009, 06:03 PM
So the only time you would use the manual switch, would be when both batts are low and you want to combine them to start manually, correct?

All I know is one time I had a weak start issue, i switched to combine and it fired right up, and I didn't!

Sodar
06-18-2009, 06:08 PM
Thanks for the investigation work, brucemac. I did not hook up the ignition wire due to confusion and it listed as "optional". I will test the purple wire though and get it hooked up, I think.. Purple ignition wire should be the momentary positive though, right?

The way I read it in diesel's thread, the purple wire is NOT monetary....

The easiest way to find the ignition circuit is to gain access to the back of the key. In all the MC boats I have done the ignition circuit has been a purple colored wire. Keep in mind there are many other purple wires in the harness so it is best to use some type of circuit tester or Fluke. If your batteries are in the back of the boat and you are confident in finding the ignition circuit you can open the harness near the engine to find the ignition circuit to save the aggravation of running a wire all the way from the dash. By far the easiest way is to locate the ignition terminal on the back of the key and run a wire from the dash to the remaining small terminal on the relay. Once wired up you can test the relay with a Fluke or you can just listen for an audible “click” from the relay when the key is turned to the ON position. If using a Fluke to test it should only show continuity (closed circuit) when in the ON position. In ACC and OFF the circuit should show no continuity and should be open. If using the your ear to test, the relay should click once when the ignition is turned to the ON position and click again when brought back to the off position. It should not click when the key is turned to the ACC position.

http://img63.echo.cx/img63/1719/diagram0xn.png

This would mean that the purple wire is hot whenever the key is on or the boat is running. For the Blue Seas, you need to find the wire that is ONLY hot when the boat is cranking. I made this mistake during my first hook-up and had the Blue Seas LED blinking. Since then, I have just disconnected the starting isolation until I get the voltmeter to find the correct wire.

brucemac
06-18-2009, 06:14 PM
So the only time you would use the manual switch, would be when both batts are low and you want to combine them to start manually, correct?

correct.

It's not your fault Cam. I decided to go with after you posted yours. I sold it for what I bought it for...just frustration.

Bruce...my starting battery was showing 11.9 volts, it was hooked up right. I'm not a elec engineer, but was on a Bomb Squad for 8 years--I know electricity pretty well. The thing didn't work right....period.

hey no worries and again, not trying to hound you, simply want to know for myself, because if i ever replace my current seperator, i'd probably buy this kit with the switch and wanted to fully understand it.

Thanks for the investigation work, brucemac. I did not hook up the ignition wire due to confusion and it listed as "optional". I will test the purple wire though and get it hooked up, I think.. Purple ignition wire should be the momentary positive though, right?

i didn't know the start isolation wire was optional, but makes sense. your'e just not protecting your "sensitive electronics" ;) for whatever that's worth. :)

i have no idea what the momentary positive ignition wire is, but i bet someone here does, *cough* JIMN *cough* ;)

on my surepower 1314, i have the optional "start assist" wire from the 1314 connected to the purple wire with an inline fuse. would usre like to know which wires are which and that i have it right. i've never had a problem yet, but i've never had a low/dead start battery either. sucks too because i just had access earlier this week with my sub out and everything, but now it's all put back together and i'll be darned if i'm messing with it now unless surepower tells me to get my start assist off the always on ignition wire. :D

nmcjr
06-18-2009, 08:56 PM
The momentary positive connection should only be hot when the key is in the start position, NOT the run position. This lead breaks the connection between the batteries when 12V is applied to it. Therefore, if there is 12V on this lead when the key is in run, they will never combine.

The idea is to prevent a surge of some sort on the amps when the starter is engaged, which to me is not necessary so I didn't use it.

The main purpose of the big red switch is to be able to manually combine them if needed to start the engine off the stereo battery, or to enable them both to charge should you get locked out because of the 10.8V issue.

To add to the fun, I have a built in two channel Guest battery charger (common on bass boats). However, the ACR was detecting the charge from the charger and combining the batteries, therefore essentially turning my 2-channel charger into a one channel charger. So, I wired one of the batteries inline on the two right posts (see the link from Funk's post) so that when in the "off" position they are forced into a state of isolation. Additionally, I have one of my amps connected to the upper left post as the "house load". This way I can listed to the radio in my garage with a lower power draw and serves as a reminder to turn the switch to the on position since the towers and sub aren't on.

So, to Brian's point, certainly not the simplest of systems, but I am kind of a gadget guy anyway so it suits me. What was the initial point of this thread again? :)

BriEOD
06-18-2009, 09:05 PM
What was the initial point of this thread again? :)

Uhh...I was trying to sell this thing and you suckers all threadjacked me! 8p

brucemac
06-18-2009, 09:37 PM
Uhh...I was trying to sell this thing and you suckers all threadjacked me! 8p

:D :D :D

Sodar
06-18-2009, 11:02 PM
Uhh...I was trying to sell this thing and you suckers all threadjacked me! 8p

We kept it at the top! :D

Now the new owner of the ACR has some more info to go off of.

I too, learned some new things here... people helping people... its a beautiful thing! 8p

BriEOD
06-22-2009, 04:31 PM
Not sure how "you" helped me other than letting me teach you about the ACR. Feel free to remit payment to my PayPal account.

BTW, my BW relay works awesome!8p