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View Full Version : 2004 mcx 350 cam specs????


scottyb
03-14-2009, 01:03 PM
I am looking for the camshaft specs for a mcx350. (2004 x-star) I am building a motor and would like to know the cam specs so I can decide if I want to run the oe cam or go with something bigger.
Any Help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Scott

JimN
03-14-2009, 01:27 PM
Pretty sure it's just like a small truck engine. Engine Nut could probably be more help.

scottyb
03-14-2009, 04:25 PM
Thanks. I am pretty sure they run the zz4 crate motor but I would still like the cam specs. I got the part numbers off the cam I took out but I can't find anything that matches the numbers

TX.X-30 fan
03-14-2009, 05:15 PM
Whats a zz4 crate motor. Indmar vortec 5700----------- Should be all over the net.

scottyb
03-15-2009, 10:11 PM
a zz4 is a gm 350hp crate motor that indmar uses as as a base for the 5700

dummy
03-15-2009, 10:28 PM
ZZ4 uses a hydraulic roller with 208 int/221 exh @ 0.050 and .474 int/.510 exh on a 112 degree LSA

It's a pretty hot cam and I sort of doubt the MCX is using it. If it's an off-the-shelf GM grind I'd be more willing to bet it's using the same cam as the RamJet 350, which makes a really flat torque curve peaking at 400lb/ft and still pumps out 350hp.

RamJet cam is 196 int/ 206 exh @ 0.050 and .431 int/ .451 exh lift on a 109-degree LSA. The narrow LSA works fine with the injection because of the low duration numbers @ 0.050.

Another reason I doubt the MCX uses the ZZ4 cam is the fact that the MCX uses Vortec heads. The stock Vortec valve springs can't really cope with more than .470 lift before the valvetrain goes into chaos at higher rpms. That and the pressed-in rocker studs are iffy with the .510 lift. You really want screw in studs and better dual springs at those lift numbers.

flipper
03-15-2009, 11:02 PM
ZZ4 uses a hydraulic roller with 208 int/221 exh @ 0.050 and .474 int/.510 exh on a 112 degree LSA

It's a pretty hot cam and I sort of doubt the MCX is using it. If it's an off-the-shelf GM grind I'd be more willing to bet it's using the same cam as the RamJet 350, which makes a really flat torque curve peaking at 400lb/ft and still pumps out 350hp.

RamJet cam is 196 int/ 206 exh @ 0.050 and .431 int/ .451 exh lift on a 109-degree LSA. The narrow LSA works fine with the injection because of the low duration numbers @ 0.050.

Another reason I doubt the MCX uses the ZZ4 cam is the fact that the MCX uses Vortec heads. The stock Vortec valve springs can't really cope with more than .470 lift before the valvetrain goes into chaos at higher rpms. That and the pressed-in rocker studs are iffy with the .510 lift. You really want screw in studs and better dual springs at those lift numbers.



Not such a "dummy" after all huh;)

scottyb
03-17-2009, 09:17 PM
Thanks, I got the part number of the stock cam from indmar.

dummy
03-18-2009, 07:21 PM
Thanks, I got the part number of the stock cam from indmar.

I'm curious - is it an Indmar PN or a GM PN? Did you ever find the specs? I do a lot of off-road vehicle builds and have contemplated using a marine-type cam in a couple of my motors. Never did, but it'd be fun to plug it into a desktop dyno to see how it'd theoretically perform.

scottyb
03-18-2009, 10:17 PM
The part number I got is a gm number. The stock cam is #10224241. I couldn't find the actual specs on the cam but everything says its pretty much just a low end tourque cam. I decided to go with the cam they run in the ram jet 350's. I did a lot of reserch on it and looks like it will work real good for what I want. That one is #14097395 there is tons of info and specs out there for that one. Depending on what you are looking for this one prob would work great in a off road application. Cam holds a nice flat tourque curve all the way up. If I sent you all the info on the motor I am building think you could plug it in your desktop dyno and give me a round about hp and tourque ??
Thanks
Scott

dummy
03-19-2009, 12:01 AM
I've built engines, but I'm not an engine builder. Don't want to give the impression that I think I'm too big for my britches. The desktop dyno was installed on one of my old computers that's been replaced. I'd have to dig the software CD out of my office. Toss me your engine specs and I'll see if I can find the program CD next time I head up to Beverly Hills.

I will tell you right now that if you're running a 9.0:1-10.0:1 compression engine, Vortec heads, MCX injection setup, and that RamJet cam you'll be right around 350hp with a nice, linear power curve up to a 5,000-5,200rpm peak and a really flat torque curve that makes 400lb-ft from about 2,200rpm up to nearly 5,000rpm.

That PN 10224241 cam is a factory LT1 grind. My Chevy buddy says it specs out at 202/207 @ 0.050 and 0.450/0.450 lift on a 117 degree LSA. Just an FYI for anybody else who was wondering.

scottyb
03-21-2009, 08:34 AM
Well I put together a all forged 383 using a scat crank, h beam rods, hrc pistons, the ram jet roller cam. 1.6 ratio roller rockers. The heads I got are patiot vortec heads, 64cc chamber 185cc intake runners,60cc exhaust runners, 2.02 int. 1.60 exh. stainless valves, 3 angle valve job. Running the indmar fuel injection.
If you find your program that would be cool but not a big deal. I got a pretty good idea what it is going to do. Thanks a lot for your time and information.
Scott

CantRepeat
03-21-2009, 09:50 AM
You're probably going to need to flow more fuel with that 383 then you did with a 350 and I'm betting you'll need a new chip as well.

I've heard of people burning the tops off the pistons because they ran a 383 with a 350 chip and it was way to lean. I know from my reading that if you do this in car or truck with TBI you have to upgrade to the 454 injectors and it helps to get the bores honed out. You could also just run the TBI off of the BBC.

Be carefull with a lean motor, I'd hate to see all your work go to waste in 4 months.

JimN
03-21-2009, 01:29 PM
Just a friendly reminder, the ECM used in these doesn't have a chip that can be removed, it has to be reprogrammed.

CantRepeat
03-22-2009, 07:48 AM
Just a friendly reminder, the ECM used in these doesn't have a chip that can be removed, it has to be reprogrammed.

And there you have it. Now, who has a programmer and how much do they normally charge for such service?

JimN
03-22-2009, 08:28 AM
And there you have it. Now, who has a programmer and how much do they normally charge for such service?

What would you base the changes on- guessing, based on parts specs or actual engine data like in-cylinder temperatures, exhaust gas temperatures, emissions and HP/torque measurements? The latter is the only really accurate way to find the correct settings. Seat of the pants is no way to do this with a new motor. Yeah, yeah, I know- they did it this way with carbs for decades but those are hardly the most precise way to run a motor.

If you have a good speed shop relatively near you, they're about the first place I would call.

CantRepeat
03-22-2009, 10:20 AM
What would you base the changes on- guessing, based on parts specs or actual engine data like in-cylinder temperatures, exhaust gas temperatures, emissions and HP/torque measurements? The latter is the only really accurate way to find the correct settings. Seat of the pants is no way to do this with a new motor. Yeah, yeah, I know- they did it this way with carbs for decades but those are hardly the most precise way to run a motor.

If you have a good speed shop relatively near you, they're about the first place I would call.

I'm a bit confused as to what you are implying here.

Are you asking what I would base those changes off of and then refering to that I suggested that it be a seat of the pants feel?

I made no such suggestion. What I offered was information that his chip would need to changed or he could damage his motor. I didn't know that was a type that you could not change but needed to be reprogrammed.

I know there is a ton of information that would need to go into programming a chip for either a TBI or TPI. Some of that information would be but is not limited to:

Engine size displacement bore/stroke
Injector Size/Brand
Desired Idle
Fuel pump
Throttle Body size
Intake Manifold
Camshaft duration @.050" Lift Cam LSA
Rockers Ratio
Cylinder Heads ported or stock CC/runner CCs
Compression ratio EGR Thermostat Temp
Exhaust System

I don't burn or program chips but I'm not as lame as you try to make me out to be. And they didn't do it that way for carbs back in the day either. Changing jets size, squiters and power valves, timing advancement, total timing, plug readings were never a seat of the pants deal.

The fact is he wont be able to run the current fuel system from a 350 to a 383 or the stock chip without damaging the motor by a lean condition.

Have a nice day.

JimN
03-22-2009, 11:35 AM
I'm a bit confused as to what you are implying here.

Are you asking what I would base those changes off of and then refering to that I suggested that it be a seat of the pants feel?

I made no such suggestion. What I offered was information that his chip would need to changed or he could damage his motor. I didn't know that was a type that you could not change but needed to be reprogrammed.

I know there is a ton of information that would need to go into programming a chip for either a TBI or TPI. Some of that information would be but is not limited to:

Engine size displacement bore/stroke
Injector Size/Brand
Desired Idle
Fuel pump
Throttle Body size
Intake Manifold
Camshaft duration @.050" Lift Cam LSA
Rockers Ratio
Cylinder Heads ported or stock CC/runner CCs
Compression ratio EGR Thermostat Temp
Exhaust System

I don't burn or program chips but I'm not as lame as you try to make me out to be. And they didn't do it that way for carbs back in the day either. Changing jets size, squiters and power valves, timing advancement, total timing, plug readings were never a seat of the pants deal.

The fact is he wont be able to run the current fuel system from a 350 to a 383 or the stock chip without damaging the motor by a lean condition.

Have a nice day.

I wasn't trying to make anyone out to be anything- I only asked a question for the general information of the thread because you may remember others saying that they had reprogrammed their ECMs but didn't do any real testing, so I thought I would throw that out there for more debate.

Sorry about writing it in a way that you took it personally.

CantRepeat
03-22-2009, 11:48 AM
I wasn't trying to make anyone out to be anything- I only asked a question for the general information of the thread because you may remember others saying that they had reprogrammed their ECMs but didn't do any real testing, so I thought I would throw that out there for more debate.

Sorry about writing it in a way that you took it personally.


I'm sorry about the misunderstanding. It was the fact that you quoted me with a yeah yeah old times kind of thing.

I didn't know that users here had reprogrammed their chips with little consideration as to what those changes meant or could do to their motors. It's highly advance information input and testing the outcomes of those changes that are needed to do a successful burn/program without damaging an motified engine setup. The fact is, I'm not the one to recommend what changes should be done, but I do know that some changes will need to be done. I agree and would put emphasis the "it's not a seat of the pants feel" when making these changes.

scottyb
03-30-2009, 09:05 PM
Hey guys,
I know I am going to need to adjust the fuel mapping for the 383. I was debating on sending my ecm in to get it mapped or purchasing the MEFI Burn software and tuning the computer myself via laptop in the boat using the real time engine data. The program is a little pricy but Will prob be worth it in the long run, having theability to make adjustments any time I want.
My only concern is if the stock injectors will be able to handle the amount of fuel needed.
Thank you
Scott

JimN
03-30-2009, 09:40 PM
How will you know if it's too lean/rich, the in-cylinder temperatures are consistent/within range, and all of that fun stuff?

scottyb
04-01-2009, 11:08 PM
guess just going to have to wing it..

MYMC
04-02-2009, 10:26 AM
I love these threads...

MYMC
04-02-2009, 10:29 AM
How will you know if it's too lean/rich, the in-cylinder temperatures are consistent/within range, and all of that fun stuff?

Come on Jim...you just run it!

How hard could it be...tip in throttle, tip in spark, high speed retard etc...why worry:confused:

TnzpU4Fa
04-02-2009, 11:31 AM
Yo!, http://shysave.com/?said=t12

dummy
04-02-2009, 01:12 PM
Come on Jim...you just run it!

How hard could it be...tip in throttle, tip in spark, high speed retard etc...why worry:confused:

Yeah, what could happen?

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd176/chinhazel/IMG_3280.jpg

scottyb
04-05-2009, 10:25 AM
Ok jim so what would YOU do???

JimN
04-05-2009, 10:52 AM
New programs aren't just tried and changed in the boat, car or truck. They're done on a dyno with sensors that indicate the things I mentioned before. You can try adding fuel, adjusting timing and anything else the software allows but without knowing the effects beyond whether it goes faster or not, your feedback isn't very complete and you run the risk of launching the motor. If you only add fuel, there's less risk.

I probably mentioned talking with someone at a speed shop and that's still a good place to start when it comes to gathering data, as long as they're set up for this.

What would I do? I'd talk with a friend in PHX, who worked in V8 powertrain development for GM for 25 years and the people who did a lot of the development for MC and Indmar on the engine control and MC technical training. If I was lucky, I'd be able to take it there so it could be dyno'd and find the baseline and then tweak it as needed. This photo is from that shop and all of the wires are for data acquisition.

MYMC
04-06-2009, 05:20 PM
New programs aren't just tried and changed in the boat, car or truck. They're done on a dyno with sensors that indicate the things I mentioned before. You can try adding fuel, adjusting timing and anything else the software allows but without knowing the effects beyond whether it goes faster or not, your feedback isn't very complete and you run the risk of launching the motor. If you only add fuel, there's less risk.

I probably mentioned talking with someone at a speed shop and that's still a good place to start when it comes to gathering data, as long as they're set up for this.

What would I do? I'd talk with a friend in PHX, who worked in V8 powertrain development for GM for 25 years and the people who did a lot of the development for MC and Indmar on the engine control and MC technical training. If I was lucky, I'd be able to take it there so it could be dyno'd and find the baseline and then tweak it as needed. This photo is from that shop and all of the wires are for data acquisition.
Ah the old superflow...I do miss it from time to time.

If it were me...and it's not...I call Alan Tehan (http://www.technicalservicesin.com/index.php) since he has done more MC "hotrodding" than most. He used to be on the MC payroll, but that is another story for a different day.

MYMC
04-06-2009, 05:26 PM
Yeah, what could happen?

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd176/chinhazel/IMG_3280.jpg
Great pic...describes it all! Funny, back in the day of moving restrictor plate inserts the engines we built would come back with marks in the carbon burn were the valve was touching it...can you say hand grenade? Once it was warm if you downshifted you'd bend the exhaust valve...had to pit in neutral.

Those were the days!

flipper
04-06-2009, 05:40 PM
Yeah, what could happen?

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd176/chinhazel/IMG_3280.jpg

That's gotta hurt

CantRepeat
04-06-2009, 07:19 PM
Hey guys,
I know I am going to need to adjust the fuel mapping for the 383. I was debating on sending my ecm in to get it mapped or purchasing the MEFI Burn software and tuning the computer myself via laptop in the boat using the real time engine data. The program is a little pricy but Will prob be worth it in the long run, having theability to make adjustments any time I want.
My only concern is if the stock injectors will be able to handle the amount of fuel needed.
Thank you
Scott

The stock injectors will not flow enough fuel. You will not know how much to change things. Just pay someone qualified to do the work. Your motor is worth to much to just guess. As you can see by the previous discussions it's not a seat of hte pants feel.

I'll look more at the other photos in a second and post about them.

CantRepeat
04-06-2009, 07:25 PM
Yeah, what could happen?

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd176/chinhazel/IMG_3280.jpg

As someone else said a bad chip burn could be fast feedback, bend a valve or something that would let you know it was screwed up.

One of the long term issues I know about comes from watching others. Said motorhead put a HP310 HP small block in a standard 350/210 HP fuel system. It ran "fine" for a long time until the tops of pistons finally burned off.

The same thing happens with 383s that run 350 injectors.

We know you don't have a dyno. So when I ask who could burn a chip I wasn't talking about the average joe with a computer in his garage. I was talking about someone that burns chips professionally. You could try www.tbichips.com (http://www.tbichips.com) and see if he can do it or knows someone that can do it.

JimN
04-06-2009, 08:19 PM
Ah the old superflow...I do miss it from time to time.

If it were me...and it's not...I call Alan Tehan (http://www.technicalservicesin.com/index.php) since he has done more MC "hotrodding" than most. He used to be on the MC payroll, but that is another story for a different day.

The photo of the engine on the dyno- I copied it from his site and that is where I'd go. I really liked hanging out down there during training.

JimN
04-06-2009, 08:22 PM
The stock injectors will not flow enough fuel. You will not know how much to change things. Just pay someone qualified to do the work. Your motor is worth to much to just guess. As you can see by the previous discussions it's not a seat of hte pants feel.

I'll look more at the other photos in a second and post about them.

Why won't they? Without knowing how much it needs, I don't think there's any reason to automatically decide they can't do the job when the easiest change to make is the pulse width. (This motor doesn't have a blower, does it? If it will get one, it'll need a different MAP sensor, too.)

MYMC
04-07-2009, 10:13 AM
Why won't they? Without knowing how much it needs, I don't think there's any reason to automatically decide they can't do the job when the easiest change to make is the pulse width. (This motor doesn't have a blower, does it? If it will get one, it'll need a different MAP sensor, too.)
Jim,
You really dont want the duty cycle to be greater than 80% so the 24lbs injector may not be enough based on "guesstimated" HP. The other side of this is that the larger injector is much more difficult to control at idle...particularly given the set-up.

You could boost fuel pressure to make the 24lbs injector act bigger, but then you are getting into modified fuel systems on a boat...never a good thing.

Decisions decisions...

JimN
04-07-2009, 12:57 PM
Jim,
You really dont want the duty cycle to be greater than 80% so the 24lbs injector may not be enough based on "guesstimated" HP. The other side of this is that the larger injector is much more difficult to control at idle...particularly given the set-up.

You could boost fuel pressure to make the 24lbs injector act bigger, but then you are getting into modified fuel systems on a boat...never a good thing.

Decisions decisions...

That was more or less my point. I don't know exactly what the duty cycle is with the OEM program. As I said, there's no reason to just decide that they can't handle it out of hand and guessing isn't much good for this kind of situation.

CantRepeat
04-07-2009, 12:57 PM
Why won't they? Without knowing how much it needs, I don't think there's any reason to automatically decide they can't do the job when the easiest change to make is the pulse width. (This motor doesn't have a blower, does it? If it will get one, it'll need a different MAP sensor, too.)

All the reading I've done says the stock 350 injectors will run a 383 lean. All of the aftermarket engine builders that I've talk to say to run the 454s because it will run lean. I assume they know what they are talking about.

CantRepeat
04-07-2009, 12:58 PM
That was more or less my point. I don't know exactly what the duty cycle is with the OEM program. As I said, there's no reason to just decide that they can't handle it out of hand and guessing isn't much good for this kind of situation.

Yes, there is a reason. The fact that so many aftermarket builders say so.

CantRepeat
04-07-2009, 01:20 PM
Yeah, what could happen?

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd176/chinhazel/IMG_3280.jpg

So, Dummy, what is the story behind this piston?

MYMC
04-07-2009, 01:34 PM
So, Dummy, what is the story behind this piston?
My guess looking at the picture is that the top ring did this.

scottyb
04-15-2009, 10:26 PM
Well its going in this weekend

dummy
04-16-2009, 08:30 PM
So, Dummy, what is the story behind this piston?

LS sand car engine. Twin turbo, lotsa boost, not enough C16 in the mix. Guy ignored the detonation 'till this happened. My buddy did the exact same thing with a 6.0L and a supercharger. Gotta feed 'em enough fuel and make sure the timing is pulled under boost or this is the result.

scottyb
04-20-2009, 08:04 PM
do you guys know when setting the timing on the electronic ignition dist. in the mcx, if there is anything I need to jump or disconnect?