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6ballsisall
03-05-2009, 01:00 PM
That ain't good

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,505130,00.html

cbryan70
03-05-2009, 01:01 PM
Tax dollars well spent on a company that over pays its employee's and produces are car of lesser quality then the competition

shepherd
03-05-2009, 01:11 PM
Well, if they said "We think we'll be OK" they would be less likely to get more bailout money, wouldn't they? :cool:

Call their bluff. And if they fail, screw 'em.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-05-2009, 01:11 PM
what do they expect?

they missmanage a company for years overpaying employees, from top to bottom. poorly managing funds, building sub par quality cars, and then they act surprized when this happens. and then they want the tax payers to bail them out? :rolleyes: Maybe if they started building better vehicles people would buy them. Couple that with some sound business sense in the inside, and they wouldnt be in this mess. what a concept. You dont see their Import competitors in this financial pickle.

bigmac
03-05-2009, 01:12 PM
Well then, if they're going down, I sure as h3ll think we should not give them any more bailout money, in fact, should try to get some of it back from them.

GM has said it wants to avoid bankruptcy protection because it would scare off customers. Car buyers, the company has said, would be reluctant to buy from an automaker in bankruptcy protection due to fears that it wouldn't be around long enough to honor warranties or make replacement parts.

They're sure as h3ll right about that. My next truck's going to be a Toyota - I'm not willing to take a chance on buying a vehicle from a company that is as stupid as GM has shown itself to be.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-05-2009, 01:18 PM
I agree Bigmac. If they would use the money responsibly to actually build better cars and not just give the big suit execs big bonuses for no reason, then I might be in favor of a bailout. but if they screwed up this long, what makes you think that throwing money at it will solve it?? they will just keep doing the same thing.

Sodar
03-05-2009, 01:22 PM
You guys just wait until all the GM guys get on here. They will be preaching how GM is trying to turn it around, how it is not all GM's fault and how GM really does build quality vehicles.

If they do fail the bailout money needs to be returned.

X2 on a Toyota being my next vehicle. I have test driven the Tundra and the Sequoia... it is just a matter of if I want an SUV or a truck.

Hollywood
03-05-2009, 01:25 PM
Damnit, so no more Corvette MCX engines for our MasterCrafts?

ttu
03-05-2009, 01:39 PM
You guys just wait until all the GM guys get on here. They will be preaching how GM is trying to turn it around, how it is not all GM's fault and how GM really does build quality vehicles.

If they do fail the bailout money needs to be returned.

X2 on a Toyota being my next vehicle. I have test driven the Tundra and the Sequoia... it is just a matter of if I want an SUV or a truck.

wake2wake will say tundra and i say sequoia.:rolleyes:

18K on my 08 sequoia and no issues and drives perfect.

hate to hear this about gm.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-05-2009, 01:41 PM
Damnit, so no more Corvette MCX engines for our MasterCrafts?

Good question. with GM on the ropes, I would hope they look into other options.

Jesus_Freak
03-05-2009, 01:43 PM
....should try to get some of it back from them.

Makes perfect sense to me!

erkoehler
03-05-2009, 01:45 PM
http://www.ilmor.com/marine/index.html

:confused::confused::confused:

:rolleyes:

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-05-2009, 01:47 PM
and I suppose they think the new camaro will solve this mess and save them. :rolleyes:

cbryan70
03-05-2009, 01:52 PM
http://www.ilmor.com/marine/index.html

:confused::confused::confused:

:rolleyes:

that thing is nuts

Sodar
03-05-2009, 01:56 PM
http://www.ilmor.com/marine/index.html

:confused::confused::confused:

:rolleyes:

Surprised it has not already happened. Mr. Penske is a partner in Ilmor... maybe you know something we don't, Erk?

joniron1
03-05-2009, 02:16 PM
weve given AIG almost 80 billion in a little more than 6 mos,and they keep losing outrageous amounts of money month aftermonth.They really have overpaid their employees,and they are directly responsible for a large part of this mess.They insure the banks retarded loans that started this mess.Corporate America as a whole needs restructuring.A house of cards will eventually fall.Also companies benefits packages need to be fully funded ,not based on hopes for the future.Their legacy costs is at the heart of GM troubles. $1800 on every new car goes the pensioners.They dont pay much more than toyota does for their american workforce.Sales are down industry wide foriegn and domestic.

RexDog1
03-05-2009, 02:25 PM
You guys just wait until all the GM guys get on here. They will be preaching how GM is trying to turn it around, how it is not all GM's fault and how GM really does build quality vehicles.

If they do fail the bailout money needs to be returned.

X2 on a Toyota being my next vehicle. I have test driven the Tundra and the Sequoia... it is just a matter of if I want an SUV or a truck.

God help you if “Toys” see this post???.............................:rolleyes:

Look you Guys, he said he was going to “Change things” and he is doing it fast before people wake up

russlars
03-05-2009, 03:17 PM
You guys just wait until all the GM guys get on here. They will be preaching how GM is trying to turn it around, how it is not all GM's fault and how GM really does build quality vehicles.

If they do fail the bailout money needs to be returned.

X2 on a Toyota being my next vehicle. I have test driven the Tundra and the Sequoia... it is just a matter of if I want an SUV or a truck.
Aren't you the guy that was saying that Chevy trucks are the only way to go? I think you even had a pick of a big Chevy duelly on another thread and a Tahoe on your avatar?? Have you realized the error of your ways and "seen the light"?

Prostar Rich
03-05-2009, 03:23 PM
Here's a good read on the subject at hand.

Prostar Rich


-----------------------------------------------
THE AUTOEXTREMIST
November 12, 2008

Tick, tick, tick...

By Peter M. De Lorenzo


Detroit. So it has come down to this for General Motors: 100 years of living, breathing American industrial and social history is on the precipice of total disaster, with the once-glittering corporate icon facing certain collapse if some sort of government financial aid package is not put together in the next 60 days.

Think about that for a moment.

The company that basically powered this nation through a century of progress and helped this country muster the strength to fight world wars - while contributing immeasurably to the fabric of America and the development of our vast middle class - is on the verge of filing bankruptcy.

Unbeknownst to the legions of people out there in “fractured” America, the ones who fill the Internet with bile and who project such a level of viciousness and unbridled glee at the thought of the collapse of our domestic automobile industry as if it were – amazingly enough - some warped opportunity for celebration, there are countless towns, big and small, scattered all across this nation that have grown up with GM as their main employer and the main source of income for thousands of American families.

I am absolutely convinced that the people who hate “Detroit” and want it to implode have not even the faintest of clues as to what it really means if it were allowed to happen. To those instant experts out there who are reveling at the thought of a major part of our country’s industrial fabric collapsing, I say be careful what you wish for - because if GM is allowed to fail, it will take the entire domestic auto industry down with it - meaning thousands of suppliers and dealers in towns making up a cross-section of America will go under too.

For the record, there are around 14,000 domestic-oriented dealers in the U.S. employing approximately 740,000 people with a payroll of around $35 billion – that’s billion with a “B.” But that’s just the dealer side of the equation. When you add in the suppliers and all of the associated businesses that either directly or indirectly depend on Detroit for their livelihoods, we’re talking almost three million people who would be out of work in a matter of just a few months, adding up to a $150 billion loss in personal income.

Let’s take California, for instance. Judging by our reader mail, there seems to be a large contingent of people out there who adamantly believe that “Detroit deserves to die” etc., etc., and that whatever happens “won’t affect me.” But GM and the domestic auto industry’s collapse will most definitely affect Californians as well. NUMMI, a joint operation between GM and Toyota (the Toyota Corolla, Toyota Tacoma and Pontiac Vibe are built there) and the only San Francisco Bay Area car factory, is already reducing shifts and may even shut down its Tacoma pickup truck line due to the burgeoning economic slowdown. One of our readers who understands the ramifications of a domestic industry collapse passed this interesting local news report along about NUMMI, which said, "There are tens of thousands of additional jobs on the line besides the 5,000 at NUMMI. There are over 1,000 suppliers in California that provide parts. They in turn employ 50,000 people."

That’s just one factory. Now multiply that by the staggering totals involved if GM - which has 22 stamping plants and 26 powertrain plants in North America on top of its assembly facilities - and the rest of the domestic automobile industry is allowed to fail. The tentacles of this kind of cataclysmic disaster would spread throughout the nation like a virus that could not be contained.

I really don’t know why it’s so easy for people out there to dismiss the collapse of the domestic automobile industry as being some minor event that won’t affect them in the least, because each person who is part of that figure of three million represents a real family and real human story, all across this nation. It’s the mom and pop diners, stores and peripheral neighborhood businesses that depend on the workers who toil at these factories and plants for their livelihoods too. There are towns all across America that would simply dry up and blow away if the local GM or supplier plant shut down. That’s not an exaggeration, that’s a simple fact.

I have been vilified of late by numerous critics for shifting my commentary to a more political tone over this election year, but I don’t offer any apologies. This country is not only in the throes of a financial crisis, it’s in the throes of a fundamental identity crisis as well. We as a nation have been lulled into thinking that things will work out and that any unpleasantness headed our way will be mere speed bumps on our journey to becoming a state of perpetual consumer bliss.

Well, it just doesn’t work that way, folks.

We live in a global economy that isn’t big on history or what we as a nation once did or stood for. We have to compete, or else we will arrive at a point when our national future will transition from being one of destiny to one being dictated to us by a unsavory set of circumstances and interests not in line in the least with our hopes, our dreams or our thinking.

In order to compete in this global economy we have to get smarter in our schools and with our educational policies. A high school graduation rate of 50-60 percent should be anathema in our inner cities instead of too often the rule. Remedial classes for kids entering college (who are not able to handle freshman classes) should become a thing of the past. And our teachers need to be compensated realistically and properly so more of our brightest people can sign up to help shape our kids’ futures.

Even though we as a nation don’t seem to have the stomach for hard work and sacrifice any longer - hell, I’m not sure those words and their meanings are even in the lexicon of vast swaths of our population - we must get tougher in the midst of this global economy, and we have to steel ourselves for the kind of battles we’ll face. And that means shoring up our manufacturing and supporting our homegrown industries that are so intertwined with communities all across this still great nation. It also means that President elect Obama will not only be President of the United States, he will have to be CEO of America, Inc. too.

And America Inc. not only needs to be rebuilt, it needs to be fortified with new determination because there are far too many talented and creative people in this nation who can do extraordinary things and we need to make the idea – the idea that we can innovate, create, build and manufacture things that are the envy of the world - cool again, and take pride in doing so as well.

In short, this nation needs a wake-up call.

Anyone who thinks this country will not be thrown into a full-blown depression if the domestic automobile industry is allowed to fail is simply kidding themselves. We are facing a perfect storm of events that could spell disaster if we as a nation don’t act and act fast. And it would take years for this country to recover too.

As I’ve said repeatedly the time for all of the idyllic, “let the free market run its course” hand-wringing is over. It’s far too late for that. This country’s leadership needs to get these loans to GM and the rest of the domestic automobile industry in the next 60 days, or life as we’ve come to know it in this country – and I mean every part of this country – not just here in the Motor City, will be severely and unequivocally altered.

That tick, tick, tick you hear?

It's the time running out on the future of America.

Let’s hope that what needs to get done will in fact get done, before it's too late.

Sodar
03-05-2009, 03:44 PM
Aren't you the guy that was saying that Chevy trucks are the only way to go? I think you even had a pick of a big Chevy duelly on another thread and a Tahoe on your avatar?? Have you realized the error of your ways and "seen the light"?

I would love a dually, but the 38' Cigarette or 42' outerlimits is still out of the picture. When I get to the point that I need to look for a vehicle that will yank around a 10000# boat, I will look into the dually.

I do have a Tahoe. And you can read here (http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=20006) about the lovely experiences I have had with it. There is no doubt about it... I love the look of my Tahoe, it stops there.

As far as "seeing the light". I would have to say "NO". I am both disappointed and saddened that I must look to a foreign builder to meet my needs of reliability and longevity.

bigmac
03-05-2009, 04:04 PM
Here's a good read on the subject at hand.

Prostar Rich


-----------------------------------------------
THE AUTOEXTREMIST
November 12, 2008

Tick, tick, tick...

By Peter M. De Lorenzo


Detroit. So it has come down to this for General Motors.......

I am absolutely convinced that the people who hate “Detroit” and want it to implode have not even the faintest of clues as to what it really means if it were allowed to happen. .



This guy assumes that everyone is in the "Haters of Detroit" club. As so many of them do, they try to maginalize detractors by lumping them in that category, rather than assuming the OTHER possibility that people are disgusted by giving billions to a company that has shown an inability to compete, that has persisted for decades in using outmoded marketing, outmoded manufacturing, outmoded design and ESPECIALLY outmoded business practices. Now, through their own sheer arrogance and ignorance, they have hit the wall and want us to rescue them, at significant cost to the future security of us and our children. If we won't buy their cars then they want us to just directly put dollars in to their outstretched hands.

Why does it have to be "Haters of Detroit"? Why can't it be "Haters of outmoded, non-competitive manufacturers"?

Hollywood
03-05-2009, 04:07 PM
I have had a GM card since I was about 18. :(

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-05-2009, 04:18 PM
This guy assumes that everyone is in the "Haters of Detroit" club. As so many of them do, they try to maginalize detractors by lumping them in that category, rather than assuming the OTHER possibility that people are disgusted by giving billions to a company that has shown an inability to compete, that has persisted for decades in using outmoded marketing, outmoded manufacturing, outmoded design and ESPECIALLY outmoded business practices. Now, through their own sheer arrogance and ignorance, they have hit the wall and want us to rescue them, at significant cost to the future security of us and our children. If we won't buy their cars then they want us to just directly put dollars in to their outstretched hands.

Why does it have to be "Haters of Detroit"? Why can't it be "Haters of outmoded, non-competitive manufacturers"?

Olson Johnson is right about Howard Johnson's being right.

thatsmrmastercraft
03-05-2009, 04:20 PM
Looks like its time to go back to Ford engines again. The 500hp Cobra powerplant would move a boat right along.

03 35th Anniversary
03-05-2009, 04:25 PM
Looks like its time to go back to Ford engines again. The 500hp Cobra powerplant would move a boat right along.

+500hp rules!!!

Sodar
03-05-2009, 04:28 PM
+500hp rules!!!

Don't you wish you still had a boat with +500hp.

How is that trailer search coming?

mayo93prostar
03-05-2009, 04:38 PM
boy sodar, that was a low blow to 03.

is the trailer for the boat or to live in? 03, my jab...

east tx skier
03-05-2009, 04:40 PM
Looks like its time to go back to Ford engines again. The 500hp Cobra powerplant would move a boat right along.

Go back? I never left. Love my Ford marine engine. My Ford truck engine isn't half bad either.

03 35th Anniversary
03-05-2009, 04:42 PM
Don't you wish you still had a boat with +500hp.

How is that trailer search coming?

Possession is 9/10ths of ownership!!!

I have the trailer search on hold till they assess all the damage done to this one. I have to take it in on Sat. to have the quote everything since it was too much for the adj. to handle.

Sodar
03-05-2009, 04:44 PM
Possession is 9/10ths of ownership!!!

I have the trailer search on hold till they assess all the damage done to this one. I have to take it in on Sat. to have the quote everything since it was too much for the adj. to handle.

It's the last 1/10th that really matters.

Jorski
03-05-2009, 05:05 PM
Damnit, so no more Corvette MCX engines for our MasterCrafts?

That is NOT going to be the case.

To be clear, if GM does go "bankrupt", that means that they enter under chapter 11. They will under the direction of the court be able to wipe out the existing equity shareholders. The debt holders will take a haircut and exchange their bond holdingd for shares in "new GM". Under chapter 11, the enterprose will have significant power to renegotiate lower salaries with the unions, and emerge with a smaller work force. They will also be able to reduce pension and healthcare benefits which are killing this company. They will also likely sell some assets, to further reduce debt.

So there will emerge a smaller, and more managable company that will still make Corvettes and tahoes.

Further, if that didn't work, and the court agreed that the company was unsavable and that no deal with debtholders appeared to be workable, the company would then enter chapter 7. Under this part of the bankruptcy act, assets are sold off by auction, and debtholders get a % of what they are owed according to capital structure.

Several competitors and parts manufactuerers, would buy and operate pieces of GM. You would be able to get parts and engines etc. without a problem.

It is highyl improbable that the company would VER get to chapter 7.

sand2snow22
03-05-2009, 05:09 PM
So there will emerge a smaller, and more managable company that will still make Corvettes and tahoes.


Don't forget the Volt. By the time it is available to the public, it will be a dinosaur. Other companies with have fully electric vehicles with more range $15k cheaper!

03 35th Anniversary
03-05-2009, 05:14 PM
It is highyl improbable that the company would VER get to chapter 7.

Nothing in this case is improbable with the U.A.W. being involved.

pkskier
03-05-2009, 05:42 PM
With the problems that GM is having why are all ya'll going to buy Toyotas next. The last time I checked the number 1 selling truck in America was the F 150 and Ford has not taken any bailout money nor asked for it. All the more reason to buy a Ford. I also love my Ford Indmar engine.

justinglow
03-05-2009, 05:45 PM
I love my Ford F-150 too. Had several GM vehicles as well but none were built as good as the Ford. Not bashing just speaking from me own experience. I don't think I will ever by another GM vehicle again.

ProTour X9
03-05-2009, 06:27 PM
Looks like YUGO is gonna be making a comeback, you guys can drive tuna cans, I'll stick to a tuna boat. :D 8p 8p I'd rather have a Ford than some import car any day.

Which one would you rather be in on the Mackinac Bridge?

From 1985:
45129

45130

Delete1
03-05-2009, 06:42 PM
Nothing against the FORD fans here, but Ford being the best selling truck for years is true, but the GM boys have both the Chevrolet and GMC truck line. I think if you compare the sales of Chevrolet and GMC, I think GM has it hands down (that's from a friend who sells for Ford). My two cents, I am a GM man born and raised, my kid brother turned to the Ford side. Nice trucks though. I picked up my new 2009 GMC Sierra Crew Cab in December (Christmas present to myself), and I love it. Can't wait to see the boat behind it.

funk
03-05-2009, 06:42 PM
With the problems that GM is having why are all ya'll going to buy Toyotas next. The last time I checked the number 1 selling truck in America was the F 150 and Ford has not taken any bailout money nor asked for it. All the more reason to buy a Ford. I also love my Ford Indmar engine.

If the GM Sierra and Chevy Silverado were combined, they would smoke F series sales year after year.

shepherd
03-05-2009, 06:44 PM
And they still seem to have plenty of money to cover this kind of stuff. :confused: :rolleyes:

How many millions do they spend on racing every year?

ProTour X9
03-05-2009, 07:06 PM
Nothing against the FORD fans here, but Ford being the best selling truck for years is true, but the GM boys have both the Chevrolet and GMC truck line. I think if you compare the sales of Chevrolet and GMC, I think GM has it hands down (that's from a friend who sells for Ford). My two cents, I am a GM man born and raised, my kid brother turned to the Ford side. Nice trucks though. I picked up my new 2009 GMC Sierra Crew Cab in December (Christmas present to myself), and I love it. Can't wait to see the boat behind it.

I have to say I believe GM makes the best (powerful/reliable) engines of all the brands.

bigmac
03-05-2009, 07:37 PM
If the GM Sierra and Chevy Silverado were combined, they would smoke F series sales year after year.


And they are the same truck, just with some different sheet metal and different option package arrangement.

scott023
03-05-2009, 07:46 PM
It's too bad so many of you have had bad experiences with GM... I have had nothing but stellar performers, from low end to high. Our first car, a '99 Olds Alero, we had zero issues with, and we put 240K on it. Our Tahoe has also been great, no issues after 4 years and 105K. Seems all the negative out weighs the positive, but maybe if more of us supported the domestic instead of fliiping to the companies where the money DOES NOT stay in north america, perhaps the buiders would not be cutting corners to make the vehicles less expensive. I see this as the issue, they are trying to price their vehicles under the imports to drive sales. All I know is, my garages at home will ALWAYS have a domestic parked in them. I know a lot of guys rave on the Toyota's, and I know them make a damn fine vehicle, but we can only strengthen our economy if the money stays in our economy.

Any good GM stories out there?

Delete1
03-05-2009, 08:04 PM
I have to agree with scott023. No bad experiences with GM either. I have owned two Jimmy's, a Yukon and am now on my second Sierra. Comfort, mileage, appearance, etc, can't compare. Nothing against the other manufacturers out there but GM has my vote. I guess it's like comparing a Mastercraft to the other competition (I am not switching, my truck and definately not my boat).

j2nh
03-05-2009, 08:10 PM
GM builds great vehicles, a far cry in terms of quality from where they were 10 years ago, but that is not the problem.
Collectively the Detroit 3 are facing a 41 billion dollar shortfall on their pension fund. GM owes 25 billion to VERBA, the UAW administered, Detroit 3 funded, retiree health care plan. They have lost money every year since 2004, and lost of 30.9 billion in 08. Sales are in the dumpster and it probably won't get better until sometime in 2011.
This is pretty grim and in today's economy I have no clue how they can dig themselves out without huge, and I mean really huge, sacrifices from management, UAW and bond holders.
It's up to them but they can't keep coming back to the taxpayers for more every 2 months.

bigmac
03-05-2009, 08:13 PM
It's too bad so many of you have had bad experiences with GM... I have had nothing but stellar performers, from low end to high. Our first car, a '99 Olds Alero, we had zero issues with, and we put 240K on it. Our Tahoe has also been great, no issues after 4 years and 105K. Seems all the negative out weighs the positive, but maybe if more of us supported the domestic instead of fliiping to the companies where the money DOES NOT stay in north america, perhaps the buiders would not be cutting corners to make the vehicles less expensive. I see this as the issue, they are trying to price their vehicles under the imports to drive sales. All I know is, my garages at home will ALWAYS have a domestic parked in them. I know a lot of guys rave on the Toyota's, and I know them make a damn fine vehicle, but we can only strengthen our economy if the money stays in our economy.

Any good GM stories out there?

Personally, I've never had any bad mechanical experiences with any of the 14 or 15 GM vehicles I've owned since 1999. My son is still driving the Silverado I bought that year. It has 175,000 miles on it and hasn't had any major mechanical problems.

Dan K
03-05-2009, 08:58 PM
I have driven many brands and models, a large percentage were GM. Their quality rocks ! Nearly zero problems in 38 different vehicles over the last 12 years. Only problems were a rear axle oil leak and one recall for a power steering hose relocation. Currently have a 01 Grandam, 04 Ion and 07 CTS. I know first hand the problem GM is experiencing since I have been looking to buy a new vehicle since December of last year. Leases are priced out of range, New lease on a CTS is 2 and 1/2 times more expensive than the current lease even though sticker prices are within comparable range and financing is out of control. GM's problem is currently and I stress currently almost entirely due to the meltdown and corruption in the financial sector lay that on top of the $4 gas early last year that within 60 days shifted the majority of the buyers away from SUVs and Trucks gave them the 1,2,3, punch.
All you people need to lighten up on a company that has given back to the American people through taxes and charitable giving (Katrina and 9/11 are examples) time and time again.
Foreign makers build nice cars too but I do not believe the quality gap in today's cars can be differentiated by the consumer.
I really wish everyone would focus on the ripoff we are getting in the financial sector, but the truth is most people don't understand it and therefore pick on an industry we all think we know something about. The executive bonuses AIG gave are near what bailout money was LOANED to GM.

BriEOD
03-05-2009, 09:02 PM
Well said DanK! I'd like to round up those finance execs and beat their azzes with a freaking rubber hose.

I'm a Ford guy myself (F-150 and Expedition) but wish GM the best!

03 35th Anniversary
03-05-2009, 09:07 PM
I have driven many brands and models, a large percentage were GM. Their quality rocks ! Nearly zero problems in 38 different vehicles over the last 12 years. Only problems were a rear axle oil leak and one recall for a power steering hose relocation. Currently have a 01 Grandam, 04 Ion and 07 CTS. I know first hand the problem GM is experiencing since I have been looking to buy a new vehicle since December of last year. Leases are priced out of range, New lease on a CTS is 2 and 1/2 times more expensive than the current lease even though sticker prices are within comparable range and financing is out of control. GM's problem is currently and I stress currently almost entirely due to the meltdown and corruption in the financial sector lay that on top of the $4 gas early last year that within 60 days shifted the majority of the buyers away from SUVs and Trucks gave them the 1,2,3, punch.
All you people need to lighten up on a company that has given back to the American people through taxes and charitable giving (Katrina and 9/11 are examples) time and time again.
Foreign makers build nice cars too but I do not believe the quality gap in today's cars can be differentiated by the consumer.
I really wish everyone would focus on the ripoff we are getting in the financial sector, but the truth is most people don't understand it and therefore pick on an industry we all think we know something about. The executive bonuses AIG gave are near what bailout money was LOANED to GM.

I think GM's problem is the U.A.W. and it's dealers.

U.A.W. They drank the well dry.

Dealers make it Hell to purchase anything.

pkskier
03-05-2009, 10:22 PM
I was not implying that there was a problem with GMC or Chevy trucks, I happen to be driving a company GMC at this time, it is a good truck. My point is the people that are choosing to go to Toyota because of the financial problems of GM and not considering the American owned (did not say made) Ford that has not ask for a bailout from the government and have stated that they have enough cash reserves to last at least through the year. Obvisouly a better managed company.

j2nh
03-05-2009, 10:23 PM
I have driven many brands and models, a large percentage were GM. Their quality rocks !... GM's problem is currently and I stress currently almost entirely due to the meltdown and corruption in the financial sector lay that on top of the $4 gas early last year that within 60 days shifted the majority of the buyers away from SUVs and Trucks gave them the 1,2,3, punch.
All you people need to lighten up on a company that has given back to the American people through taxes and charitable giving (Katrina and 9/11 are examples) time and time again.
Foreign makers build nice cars too but I do not believe the quality gap in today's cars can be differentiated by the consumer.
I really wish everyone would focus on the ripoff we are getting in the financial sector, but the truth is most people don't understand it and therefore pick on an industry we all think we know something about. The executive bonuses AIG gave are near what bailout money was LOANED to GM.

I noted in my post that with regard to GM it is not a question of quality. GM and Ford have both done a credible job in bringing their vehicles up to and maybe beyond some of the imports.
But.
GM's problems are not just caused by meltdown in the financial sector and $4 gas. GM has lost money every year since 2004. Even during the gravy years of 05,06 and 07 they could not turn a profit. Large margins on SUV's and trucks just help to keep the bleeding at a manageable level. This was going to happen, recent events just brought it to a crisis sooner rather than later. Nobody wants to see them fail, but how long do you keep them on life support before you pull the plug? Maybe the GM that emerges from bankruptcy will be a competitive one that will once again make us proud of the General.

Also agree that those responsible, especially the Financial Products Division of AIG located in London (go figure), should be put in JAIL until all of the money gets paid back to the US Taxpayer, i.e. LIFE.

Jorski
03-05-2009, 11:29 PM
Nothing in this case is improbable with the U.A.W. being involved.

Well, that is one of the reasons a pre-packaged bankruptcy makes sense in this case. The union has very little influence in a bankruptcy court. either they negotiate salaries and benefits to a level that s sustainable, or the court will set aside the current agreements and rule on future benefits.

j2nh
03-05-2009, 11:38 PM
Well, that is one of the reasons a pre-packaged bankruptcy makes sense in this case. The union has very little influence in a bankruptcy court. either they negotiate salaries and benefits to a level that s sustainable, or the court will set aside the current agreements and rule on future benefits.

So the UAW local in Saline votes down the concessions to the Ford contract 76% to 24%. If they aren't worried about all of this maybe we shouldn't be either.

Jesus_Freak
03-06-2009, 01:24 PM
GM's problems are not just caused by meltdown in the financial sector and $4 gas. GM has lost money every year since 2004. Even during the gravy years of 05,06 and 07 they could not turn a profit. Large margins on SUV's and trucks just help to keep the bleeding at a manageable level. This was going to happen, recent events just brought it to a crisis sooner rather than later. Nobody wants to see them fail, but how long do you keep them on life support before you pull the plug? Maybe the GM that emerges from bankruptcy will be a competitive one that will once again make us proud of the General.

Absolutely. The financial "crisis" did not necessarily coincide with $4 gas. Even if it did, it has not been going on long enough to be the cause of the destruction of the GM empire. Everyone on this forum is experiencing the current crisis; how many are filing for bankruptcy?

As an aside...has anyone done the math on how GM's charitable "giving back to Americans" compares to their bailout money?

M-Funf
03-06-2009, 01:37 PM
My next truck's going to be a Toyota - I'm not willing to take a chance on buying a vehicle from a company that is as stupid as GM has shown itself to be.

Mine, too. I had hoped to buy American, but it's just not the right time...

scott023
03-06-2009, 01:37 PM
Absolutely. The financial "crisis" did not necessarily coincide with $4 gas. Even if it did, it has not been going on long enough to be the cause of the destruction of the GM empire. Everyone on this forum is experiencing the current crisis; how many are filing for bankruptcy?

As an aside...has anyone done the math on how GM's charitable "giving back to Americans" compares to their bailout money?

Will it matter? How much have these companies done to stimulate the economy over the last 70 years? How many jobs created that would not have been there otherwise? Remember when there were no imports in North America? How did everyone get from point A to B? Seems to me that is an economy stimulant in itself.

I agree 100% that GM and others have drastically overpaid employees, and there has been a lot of mismanagement of funds and resources.

Saying that, who wants to see what things will be like without these guys around? Will it STIMULATE the economy by letting them slip away? I for one do not want to see that happen, and that is why my loyalties lie where they do... at home.

scott023
03-06-2009, 01:41 PM
Mine, too. I had hoped to buy American, but it's just not the right time...

These type of attitudes will sink them... when is the right time? If everyone held these beliefs, no one would buy them and they will be gone. Every auto manufacturer produces lemons... MB, Lexus, Acura to name a few that freinds ahev had issues with. A buddy of mine bought a new Tundra three weeks ago, and the engine blew 5Km from the dealership. Are the domestics better? I have heard the smae stories as that about GM. Let' not put the imports up on a pedistal, I really think there are great quality vehicles coming out of the big three too.

Jesus_Freak
03-06-2009, 01:43 PM
Will it matter? How much have these companies done to stimulate the economy over the last 70 years? How many jobs created that would not have been there otherwise? Remember when there were no imports in North America? How did everyone get from point A to B? Seems to me that is an economy stimulant in itself.

Excellent points. I share your loyalty and desire to see them do well. There is, however, no way of knowing exactly their net contribution without repeating the last 70 years without GM and then comparing the two figures. So...my question about giving vs. bailout was a bit short-sighted. :o

bigmac
03-06-2009, 01:54 PM
These type of attitudes will sink them... when is the right time? If everyone held these beliefs, no one would buy them and they will be gone. Every auto manufacturer produces lemons... MB, Lexus, Acura to name a few that freinds ahev had issues with. A buddy of mine bought a new Tundra three weeks ago, and the engine blew 5Km from the dealership. Are the domestics better? I have heard the smae stories as that about GM. Let' not put the imports up on a pedistal, I really think there are great quality vehicles coming out of the big three too.

I'm not sure how we got on to quality as a as the point of the discussion. I do think that quality is generally better in the Japanese vehicles, and that's borne out by published repair records and owner surveys, but quality isn't disastrous in domestic production.

As I mentioned MY particular anecdote is that over 14-15 GM vehicles, quality isn't the issue. The reason my next truck will be a Toyota is that generally I consider it a bad idea to make a major purchase from a manufacturer who publically states that it may well be bankrupt soon.

scott023
03-06-2009, 02:02 PM
I'm not sure how we got on to quality as a as the point of the discussion. I do think that quality is generally better in the Japanese vehicles, and that's borne out by published repair records and owner surveys, but quality isn't disastrous in domestic production.

As I mentioned MY particular anecdote is that over 14-15 GM vehicles, quality isn't the issue. The reason my next truck will be a Toyota is that generally I consider it a bad idea to make a major purchase from a manufacturer who publically states that it may well be bankrupt soon.

I see the logic in that, but do you really think that they will disappear completely and leave you with no warranty? I personally can't see that happening. There would have to be some sort of exit plan in place for the customers who still had vehicles under warranty, IMO.

bigmac
03-06-2009, 02:55 PM
I see the logic in that, but do you really think that they will disappear completely and leave you with no warranty?

I don't know. I agree it's likely there will be some kind of warranty coverage post-bankruptcy, but I'm inclined to doubt that the level of coverage, and the convenience of coverage, will be the same. Where am I going to GET that warranty service when my dealer goes out of business?

scott023
03-06-2009, 03:00 PM
I don't know. I agree it's likely there will be some kind of warranty coverage post-bankruptcy, but I'm inclined to doubt that the level of coverage, and the convenience of coverage, will be the same. Where am I going to GET that warranty service when my dealer goes out of business?

I know there is a lot of mechanics/shops that wpuld like to pick up the work in my area. He!!, they service GMs at Ford dealerships. that would always be a possibility.

pkskier
03-06-2009, 03:09 PM
I'm not sure how we got on to quality as a as the point of the discussion. I do think that quality is generally better in the Japanese vehicles, and that's borne out by published repair records and owner surveys, but quality isn't disastrous in domestic production.

As I mentioned MY particular anecdote is that over 14-15 GM vehicles, quality isn't the issue. The reason my next truck will be a Toyota is that generally I consider it a bad idea to make a major purchase from a manufacturer who publically states that it may well be bankrupt soon.

As I said before, Ford has not said they are going to file bankruptcy or have the taken any money from the government or asked for money. Why does your next truck have to be a Toyota instead of a Ford.

Sodar
03-06-2009, 03:31 PM
Do you really want me to explain my hatred for Fix Or Repair Daily vehicles!?!?!?

03 35th Anniversary
03-06-2009, 03:34 PM
Do you really want me to explain my hatred for Fix Or Repair Daily vehicles!?!?!?

Yes!

Spare no details...

And post pictures of Ashley also!!!

Sodar
03-06-2009, 03:37 PM
Yes!

Spare no details...

And post pictures of Ashley also!!!

These are all I have on this computer.

03 35th Anniversary
03-06-2009, 03:55 PM
These are all I have on this computer.


Hmmmmmm............


Ashley looks alot like Sarah!!! :confused:

Looks like she even acts like her when she is drunk!!!

pkskier
03-06-2009, 04:06 PM
Do you really want me to explain my hatred for Fix Or Repair Daily vehicles!?!?!?

If you want to, go ahead. I was just saying let's keep the money in the US instead of sending it to Japan. Ford must be doing something right.

Hollywood
03-06-2009, 04:07 PM
This thread needed that, thanks Sodar.

pkskier
03-06-2009, 04:08 PM
Oh yeah, forgot, thanks for the pictures and when you explain you hatred of Ford it would be better with more pictures.

03 35th Anniversary
03-06-2009, 04:14 PM
Yeah!!!

Thanks Sodar!!!

Sodar
03-06-2009, 04:16 PM
Hmmmmmm............


Ashley looks alot like Sarah!!! :confused:

Looks like she even acts like her when she is drunk!!!

Everyone likes a girl that can have a little fun... and has bisexual tendencies.

Yeah!!!

Thanks Sodar!!!

The pleasure is all mine.... seriously! :D

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2009, 04:20 PM
it all started when the germans bombed pearl harbor and has gone downhill since then.

03 35th Anniversary
03-06-2009, 04:28 PM
The pleasure is all mine.... seriously! :D



No, please allow me to help!!!

Sodar
03-06-2009, 04:32 PM
Nice work on the photoshop!

03 35th Anniversary
03-06-2009, 04:34 PM
Nice work on the photoshop!

Thanks, its like a second nature to me.....

beatle78
03-06-2009, 04:40 PM
wake2wake will say tundra and i say sequoia.:rolleyes:

18K on my 08 sequoia and no issues and drives perfect.

hate to hear this about gm.

Hopefully, they've made improvement on their tranny. My neighbor who tows his MC several times a year had to replace his with well under 100k on the clock. ;)

bigmac
03-06-2009, 04:45 PM
As I said before, Ford has not said they are going to file bankruptcy or have the taken any money from the government or asked for money. Why does your next truck have to be a Toyota instead of a Ford.
I like GMs better than Toyotas and I like Toyotas better than Fords.

Workin' 4 Toys
03-10-2009, 01:16 AM
God help you if “Toys” see this post???.............................:rolleyes:
It's posts like this that make me feel proud of what I have been known for, and apparently I don't even need to comment...;)
I know where I stand, and will continue to support those that I believe in, regardless of what others chose to do. :cool:

I was lucky enough to take a tour of the plant in Wisc. where they assembled the tahoe/yukon not so long ago. What a site to see, what a beautiful display of workmanship. Look forward to tour the plant in bowling green one day, hopefully as mine is being built;).