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Tennesseeski
02-27-2009, 11:25 PM
http://www.wbir.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=79434&catid=2&GID=oAxiPK1k7qNXY3sIkP0cy2GEyOVpKTL0+nn1cc+ajAI%3D

Monte
02-27-2009, 11:36 PM
Man.. I gotta say. I feel for the crew... Darn..........

sand2snow22
02-27-2009, 11:39 PM
Sucks to hear. Another article:

Mastercraft Boat Co. today said it has laid off 110 workers at its Vonore manufacturing facility as an industrywide credit crisis takes its toll on boat manufacturers.

John Dorton, Mastercraft president and CEO, said the layoffs are effective immediately and will be done without severance. Factory and office employees are affected.

Dorton attributed the layoff to a decline in wholesale credit.

“The atomic bomb that has hit the marine industry is the lack of wholesale floor plan financing,” Dorton said.

He explained that approximately 80 percent of boats annually are sold to dealers who use wholesale credit to put models in their inventory. “We’ve seen wholesale credit providers drop from five domestically to one,” he said.

Dorton said Mastercraft continues to produce boats at its Vonore plant along Tellico Lake but that production has dropped significantly.

“The 2008 model year that ended June 30 was a record year for the company. We were building 20 boats a day. Starting Monday we will be building five boats a day, which still makes us one of the industry’s highest-volume manufacturers. It’s just terrible out there,” Dorton said.

He said Mastercraft has held off on layoffs as long as it could and is hoping warmer weather this spring will prompt more boat sales.

Following the layoff, Mastercraft will employ 200 workers in Vonore, down from 570 last year.

The company was founded in 1968 in Maryville.

More details as they become available online and in Saturday’s News Sentinel.

h2oskifreak
02-28-2009, 12:18 AM
Really tough times for people. I know we need to stay optimistic, but I don't see it getting better in 09. I am in sales and having a really hard time. I have co-workers (straight commission) who haven't had income since August. They would be better off on un-employment but they aren't eligable. I am going to be lucky if I do 30-40% of my last 20 years average in my business. Let's just hope credit and confidence come back and un-employment doesn't go beyond 12%. In better times lay-offs just meant find other work. Much easier said than done.

brucemac
02-28-2009, 12:23 AM
perspective is everything.

i'm really sorry to all those that lost their job at mc. and i'm almost as sorry for those who had to ultimately make that decision.

thanks for making the best boats out there.

tr6coug
02-28-2009, 02:29 AM
Wow, no severance. Thats harsh. Wonder how much money they spent developing the 300...

TMCNo1
02-28-2009, 07:38 AM
Depressing! We were planning a trip to the factory in the next couple weeks for our late winter visit, but I just can't bring myself to do it under these circumstances. I just canceled our lodging reservations in PigeonForge/Gatlinburg as a result.:(:o

ski_king
02-28-2009, 08:25 AM
Another Article (http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2009/feb/28/110-laid-off-at-vonore-company/)
Following the layoff, Mastercraft will employ 200 workers in Vonore, down from 570 last year.

JohnE
02-28-2009, 08:30 AM
That is bad news. But no surprise really. Boat sales are down, so production has to slow. So workers have to go. I don't mean to sound callous. I feel for all of these workers.

I wonder how dealers will put boats on the floor with all but one of the floorplan companies folding. And that affects every brand, not just MC.

ski_king
02-28-2009, 08:35 AM
And just not the boating industry. Motorcycle, lawn and garden, etc. dealers use the same floorplan setups......

bigmac
02-28-2009, 08:43 AM
The sad part is I bet John Dorton and the 300 still exist at MasterCraft.

I don't get why that's the sad part...


/

JohnE
02-28-2009, 08:49 AM
And just not the boating industry. Motorcycle, lawn and garden, etc. dealers use the same floorplan setups......


And automotive. But I don't know that all those companies have folded.

Jerseydave
02-28-2009, 08:55 AM
And just not the boating industry. Motorcycle, lawn and garden, etc. dealers use the same floorplan setups......

RV industry too. A few weeks back there was a story about Elkhart Indiana where alot of RV's are built......lots of people were laid off and/or let go there.
I'm still trying to sell my 2006 Sierra 31' travel trailer........anyone interested? A steal at $20K, and like brand new.

east tx skier
02-28-2009, 10:42 AM
Sorry for all these former MC employees. Here's to hope for blue skies ahead.

2RLAKE
02-28-2009, 10:51 AM
maybe we can all get some of the 800 billion bailout money and buy each other new boats. I'll take another X14 but with an LY6

lanier92prostar
02-28-2009, 10:52 AM
RV industry too. A few weeks back there was a story about Elkhart Indiana where alot of RV's are built......lots of people were laid off and/or let go there.
I'm still trying to sell my 2006 Sierra 31' travel trailer........anyone interested? A steal at $20K, and like brand new.


I heard last week that Fleetwood, one of the largest RV manufactorers is close to closing its doors. I feel sorry for all the people that are affected in this economic time. From manufactorers, to dealers, all are definitely going to take a hit.

Ric
02-28-2009, 11:27 AM
maybe we can all get some of the 800 billion bailout money and buy each other new boats. I'll take another X14 but with an LY6
I think we're getting $80 a month from obama. Maybe we can get a payment plan?

sad to hear of anyone getting laid off, but I'm confident in a bright future.

Witness140
02-28-2009, 02:21 PM
RV industry too. A few weeks back there was a story about Elkhart Indiana where alot of RV's are built......lots of people were laid off and/or let go there.
I'm still trying to sell my 2006 Sierra 31' travel trailer........anyone interested? A steal at $20K, and like brand new.

At least the RV and motorcycle folks had enough brains to lobby in Washington for a piece of stimulus help. Those who purchase cars, light trucks, RV's, or motorcycles in 09' will be able to deduct the sales tax up to the first $49,500 of purchase price in addition to their normal income tax deduction.

The marine industry was sleeping I guess.

ski_king
02-28-2009, 03:02 PM
I was a little harsh with a comment about MC management earlier in this thread. Sorry about that. I guess, because I had not had my coffee yet and the fact that I am a slalom purist, I am not crazy about the wide range of boats offered outside of slalom. But then again, they do still make one of the best if not the best slalom boats available.

I feel for all that lost their jobs. Hopefully the economy will get turned around quickly and all will be employed again soon.

bigmac
02-28-2009, 03:56 PM
I was a little harsh with a comment about MC management earlier in this thread. Sorry about that. I guess, because I had not had my coffee yet and the fact that I am a slalom purist, I am not crazy about the wide range of boats offered outside of slalom. But then again, they do still make one of the best if not the best slalom boats available.



No offense meant, but that's a very puzzling attitude. That wide range of boats is what has made MasterCraft and several other brands viable. I don't think there are enough slalom skiers anymore to keep a slalom-only boat mfgr alive. Seems to me, wakeboarding and luxury boating is where it's at these days...

Jim@BAWS
02-28-2009, 04:16 PM
I was a little harsh with a comment about MC management earlier in this thread. Sorry about that. I guess, because I had not had my coffee yet and the fact that I am a slalom purist, I am not crazy about the wide range of boats offered outside of slalom. But then again, they do still make one of the best if not the best slalom boats available.

I feel for all that lost their jobs. Hopefully the economy will get turned around quickly and all will be employed again soon.


Just remember that the 300 was under development before the economic climate that we have now

Jim@BAWS

ski_king
02-28-2009, 04:29 PM
....... I don't think there are enough slalom skiers anymore to keep a slalom-only boat mfgr alive. ......
I will concede to that.......

brianpt
02-28-2009, 06:49 PM
well i know how those guy,s feel got laidoff myself 3 days ago anybody know how to find job,s overseas for slickliner with 17 years in in the oil& gas industry.i wonder when all thise is going to turn around and how far can evrybody go down .i think were going to go into a depression real soon .

JohnE
02-28-2009, 07:00 PM
.i think were going to go into a depression real soon .

Bingo, we are already there....

JohnE
02-28-2009, 07:09 PM
No offense meant, but that's a very puzzling attitude. That wide range of boats is what has made MasterCraft and several other brands viable. I don't think there are enough slalom skiers anymore to keep a slalom-only boat mfgr alive. Seems to me, wakeboarding and luxury boating is where it's at these days...


Clearly slalom skiers wont' keep a mfg alive. How many times have we oogled a 190 in the past few years? slalom is a small niche and can't substain any mfg. Except maybe wakecraft.:D

Jerseydave
02-28-2009, 08:56 PM
Sucks to hear. Another article:

Mastercraft Boat Co. today said it has laid off 110 workers at its Vonore manufacturing facility as an industrywide credit crisis takes its toll on boat manufacturers.

John Dorton, Mastercraft president and CEO, said the layoffs are effective immediately and will be done without severance. Factory and office employees are affected.

Dorton attributed the layoff to a decline in wholesale credit.

“The atomic bomb that has hit the marine industry is the lack of wholesale floor plan financing,” Dorton said.

He explained that approximately 80 percent of boats annually are sold to dealers who use wholesale credit to put models in their inventory. “We’ve seen wholesale credit providers drop from five domestically to one,” he said.

Dorton said Mastercraft continues to produce boats at its Vonore plant along Tellico Lake but that production has dropped significantly.

“The 2008 model year that ended June 30 was a record year for the company. We were building 20 boats a day. Starting Monday we will be building five boats a day, which still makes us one of the industry’s highest-volume manufacturers. It’s just terrible out there,” Dorton said.

He said Mastercraft has held off on layoffs as long as it could and is hoping warmer weather this spring will prompt more boat sales.

Following the layoff, Mastercraft will employ 200 workers in Vonore, down from 570 last year.

The company was founded in 1968 in Maryville.

More details as they become available online and in Saturday’s News Sentinel.

Does anyone have any recent layoff figures/boat production numbers for BU and CC? Just wondering how their situation is as of now compared to say 6 months ago.

TNH2oSkier
02-28-2009, 09:22 PM
I have heard rumors that CC is just in production 2 days per week, and offering training the other 2 days to keep full time employees at benefit levels.

I think BU was down to 4 days per week or less, with a long furlow at Christmas. Not sure if it has changed since then.

Skiers Choice is 32 hours per week at max if that, and salary took a 5% pay cut to help.

SeaRay shut down 1 of 3 plants in Knoxville.

Christianson (sp?) yact company has furlowed construction of its new plant on Tellico lake till better times.

A 7.5 Million dollar lake house that I was working on has stopped construction till better times.

The new Sequoyah marina looks to have 3 boats renting with another 297 slips avialable.

The marine industry is hurting in East TN. Please come to Fan Fair and purchase a new boat.

bigmac
02-28-2009, 09:25 PM
Just remember that the 300 was under development before the economic climate that we have now

Jim@BAWS


Anyway, the potential purchasers of such a boat are likely less affected by the economy. The 300 could be a really smart move by MC.

03 35th Anniversary
02-28-2009, 09:29 PM
I have heard rumors that CC is just in production 2 days per week, and offering training the other 2 days to keep full time employees at benefit levels.

I think BU was down to 4 days per week or less, with a long furlow at Christmas. Not sure if it has changed since then.

Skiers Choice is 32 hours per week at max if that, and salary took a 5% pay cut to help.

SeaRay shut down 1 of 3 plants in Knoxville.

Christianson (sp?) yact company has furlowed construction of its new plant on Tellico lake till better times.

A 7.5 Million dollar lake house that I was working on has stopped construction till better times.

The new Sequoyah marina looks to have 3 boats renting with another 297 slips avialable.

The marine industry is hurting in East TN. Please come to Fan Fair and purchase a new boat.

Isn't Fan Fare Over with?

Witness140
02-28-2009, 09:33 PM
Isn't Fan Fare Over with?
No, it was continued apparently.

TMCNo1
02-28-2009, 10:14 PM
Isn't Fan Fare Over with?


http://www.mastercraft.com/, News,
http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/../system/application/client/views/img/page_titles/mastercraft_news.png

MasterCraft Launches FanFare 2009!
February 27, 2009This spring MasterCraft Boat Company and its local dealers will host the premiere marine event that provides select VIP's with a world-class experience. As your dealer's invited guest, you'll be among the privileged to drive, ride or get a pull behind any boat, participate in an interactive factory tour, meet MasterCraft senior management, and take advantage of the opportunity to own an incredible 2009 MasterCraft at preferential pricing. Yeah, we thought that might get you a little excited too!

You definitely don't want to miss this spectacular event. See firsthand how all of the legendary MasterCraft models are engineered and crafted. Experience for yourself what makes MasterCraft luxury and performance better than any other brand.

But, not just anyone can be a FanFare 2009 VIP. In order to ensure each guest receives the five-star tour, space and opportunities are limited. So if you're shopping for a great deal and wish to own a new MasterCraft, contact your local dealer and ask about all of the FanFare 2009 details.

You can also contact Dave Ekern here at the factory to make your reservation.

Give Dave a call at (423) 884-7730 or email him at dave.ekern@mastercraft.com.

We're looking forward to seeing you here soon-

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/../files/w160/news_image/e15269d53359b5f55bd4cdafa6b48c1f.jpg
http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/../files/w160/news_image/fb637c3c76e1d7af909b426f7324b0d6.jpg
http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/../files/w160/news_image/6fe502a973143d8e1ff0108b7f93f83d.jpg

TheOneandOnly
02-28-2009, 11:03 PM
[QUOTE=TMCNo1;577768]http://www.mastercraft.com/, News,
http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/../system/application/client/views/img/page_titles/mastercraft_news.png

MasterCraft Launches FanFare 2009!
February 27, 2009This spring MasterCraft Boat Company and its local dealers will host the premiere marine event that provides select VIP's with a world-class experience. As your dealer's invited guest, you'll be among the privileged to drive, ride or get a pull behind any boat, participate in an interactive factory tour, meet MasterCraft senior management, and take advantage of the opportunity to own an incredible 2009 MasterCraft at preferential pricing. Yeah, we thought that might get you a little excited too!

You definitely don't want to miss this spectacular event. See firsthand how all of the legendary MasterCraft models are engineered and crafted. Experience for yourself what makes MasterCraft luxury and performance better than any other brand.

But, not just anyone can be a FanFare 2009 VIP. In order to ensure each guest receives the five-star tour, space and opportunities are limited. So if you're shopping for a great deal and wish to own a new MasterCraft, contact your local dealer and ask about all of the FanFare 2009 details.

You can also contact Dave Ekern here at the factory to make your reservation.

Give Dave a call at (423) 884-7730 or email him at dave.ekern@mastercraft.com.

We're looking forward to seeing you here soon-




I think they will have enough space available given the 100+ layoff :cool:

kgrove
03-01-2009, 12:34 AM
Anyway, the potential purchasers of such a boat are likely less affected by the economy. The 300 could be a really smart move by MC.

Not true. I know the real estate market on high end homes has taken much more of a dump than for low and mid ranged homes as the buyers have all but vanished. Zero demand. And in general, sales of luxury items have gone down much more substantially than non-luxury. All these kind of boats are luxury items and I would think the 300 even more so.

bigmac
03-01-2009, 01:23 AM
Not true. I know the real estate market on high end homes has taken much more of a dump than for low and mid ranged homes as the buyers have all but vanished. Zero demand. And in general, sales of luxury items have gone down much more substantially than non-luxury. All these kind of boats are luxury items and I would think the 300 even more so.


Maybe. But I am highly skeptical of the comparison of luxury real estate in the desert southwest and high-end boats. Isn't Phoenix/Scottsdale like, ground zero for the bursting of the real estate bubble? Your experience may not be typical of the rest of us as we muddle our way through this depression.

russlars
03-01-2009, 01:40 AM
The Westport Shipyard, located near us, builds 100' plus yachts. They just announced that they are laying off 100 employees. So I guess the economic downturn has hit the super rich also. The boats they build make the MC 300 look like a dingy.

TMCNo1
03-01-2009, 08:41 AM
The Westport Shipyard, located near us, builds 100' plus yachts. They just announced that they are laying off 100 employees. So I guess the economic downturn has hit the super rich also. The boats they build make the MC 300 look like a dingy.

But, maybe the super rich will consider downsizing due to hard economic times, from 100' yachts to a MC 300 just to keep in the super rich loop and not loose all their status in their boating community.
Or, at least we can hope, for MasterCrafts sake!

David4MCSammyDuvall
03-01-2009, 04:25 PM
It's so sad to see the layoffs at MasterCraft Boat Company. I always wondered myself why would MC create boats and sell boats that cost more than a house. It just doesn't make sense to me. I've seen so many 2006, 2007, 2008 MasterCrafts for sale on classfied ads. Their prices are unbelieveable too high. If MC are trying to sell boats to Upper Class people, I wonder how many percentage of Upper Class people out there who can afford it. Probably much less percentage than the average Middle Class people since MC are laying off employees. It would be wiser to focus on the large percentage of people with the salaries to determine what is affordable to own a boat. MasterCraft boats cost more than a house is not a smart move. Don't get me wrong. I LOVE MasterCraft boats. I'm just glad that I bought my older model of MasterCraft at the price that I can afford with my $ 40,000 a year salary. :confused:

TallRedRider
03-01-2009, 04:44 PM
It's so sad to see the layoffs at MasterCraft Boat Company. I always wondered myself why would MC create boats and sell boats that cost more than a house. It just doesn't make sense to me. I've seen so many 2006, 2007, 2008 MasterCrafts for sale on classfied ads. Their prices are unbelieveable too high. If MC are trying to sell boats to Upper Class people, I wonder how many percentage of Upper Class people out there who can afford it. Probably much less percentage than the average Middle Class people since MC are laying off employees. It would be wiser to focus on the large percentage of people with the salaries to determine what is affordable to own a boat. MasterCraft boats cost more than a house is not a smart move. Don't get me wrong. I LOVE MasterCraft boats. I'm just glad that I bought my older model of MasterCraft at the price that I can afford with my $ 40,000 a year salary. :confused:

You have good thoughts David. You could not buy a new MC with that salary without serious sacrifice. Some people are willing to do it. MC has felt that their niche is to be the very best and that is why they cost so much. It cannot be done cheaply. If they dropped into a cheaper zone, they would have to then compete with Bayliner and Moomba. Most of us would complain if MC made a 20K boat, and how it would devalue the current high end boats to be associated with such.

I owned 2 Tiges for years and watched that company move. They once produced a 'switch' model that was made with cheaper vinyl, a low budget dashboard and the such. Mostly people complained of how cheap it felt and it reflected badly on the entire company. Some people would then come on a website like wakeworld and start spouting ignorance that all Tiges were like that. I think it hurt the higher end boats more than it helped to boost the company by selling the lower end. So they quit making them. Now 2009 Tiges are even further upgraded, and are very nice boats...but the pricetag put me out of their league. So I bought a gently used MC.

JohnE
03-01-2009, 04:54 PM
I don't think the price of the boats is affecting them. Sales would be as bad if they were making budget boats too.

TX.X-30 fan
03-01-2009, 05:23 PM
I don't think the price of the boats is affecting them. Sales would be as bad if they were making budget boats too.



Shirly you jest, boats that were 60,000 are 100,000 now 4 years later with a few more power windows on them???? They were pricing boats based on a false easy money banking system and now its coming back to bite them in the ***. They need boats that people can afford bottom line or I see a grim future.

TOO-TALL
03-01-2009, 06:59 PM
Shirly you jest, boats that were 60,000 are 100,000 now 4 years later with a few more power windows on them???? They were pricing boats based on a false easy money banking system and now its coming back to bite them in the ***. They need boats that people can afford bottom line or I see a grim future.



I agree.....

kgrove
03-02-2009, 01:07 AM
Maybe. But I am highly skeptical of the comparison of luxury real estate in the desert southwest and high-end boats. Isn't Phoenix/Scottsdale like, ground zero for the bursting of the real estate bubble? Your experience may not be typical of the rest of us as we muddle our way through this depression.

Actually the luxury real estate market in Phoenix is a good barometer for spending among the super rich throughout the country. A majority of the mansions in Phoenix are not purchased by people from Phoenix and are occupied for less than half the year. There are a great number of rich retirees, athletes, etc. who winter here. I've also seen WSJ stories about year-over-year declines in sales of luxury goods being down more sharply than most any other category.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not standing up and saying you should feel sorry for the super rich. Just pointing out that you can't blame MC too much for the timing of having a 300 launch while laying off workers as nobody saw this coming, at least not this bad and this fast. I seriously doubt they would have launched a high end boat, or for that matter maybe any new boat period, had MC had any feeling at all for the financial mess we hit.

Skidawg
03-02-2009, 08:28 AM
I have heard rumors that CC is just in production 2 days per week, and offering training the other 2 days to keep full time employees at benefit levels.

I think BU was down to 4 days per week or less, with a long furlow at Christmas. Not sure if it has changed since then.

Skiers Choice is 32 hours per week at max if that, and salary took a 5% pay cut to help.

SeaRay shut down 1 of 3 plants in Knoxville.

Christianson (sp?) yact company has furlowed construction of its new plant on Tellico lake till better times.

A 7.5 Million dollar lake house that I was working on has stopped construction till better times.

The new Sequoyah marina looks to have 3 boats renting with another 297 slips avialable.

The marine industry is hurting in East TN. Please come to Fan Fair and purchase a new boat.
I really hate hearing the news about MC. I've owned one Malibu and two Master Craft boats. Personally, I wouldn’t have anything other than a Master Craft. Just to let you know, I've tried since the first week in January to order a new prostar 190. Finally gave up on it yesterday. The Dealer, blamed Master Craft on, 1st. hull rotation, 2nd. Master Craft offering discounts then refuse to give them on a 190, 3rd. offering very little on trade-in on a four year old boat. My dealer does not want used 197's. I understand both Master Craft and the Dealer need to make money, but, I was negotiating a 190 with a MSRP of 79,000.00. They just couldn’t get the numbers right. I wish MC the best but, they missed a sell.

JohnE
03-02-2009, 09:24 AM
I really hate hearing the news about MC. I've owned one Malibu and two Master Craft boats. Personally, I wouldn’t have anything other than a Master Craft. Just to let you know, I've tried since the first week in January to order a new prostar 190. Finally gave up on it yesterday. The Dealer, blamed Master Craft on, 1st. hull rotation, 2nd. Master Craft offering discounts then refuse to give them on a 190, 3rd. offering very little on trade-in on a four year old boat. My dealer does not want used 197's. I understand both Master Craft and the Dealer need to make money, but, I was negotiating a 190 with a MSRP of 79,000.00. They just couldn’t get the numbers right. I wish MC the best but, they missed a sell.


My understanding is that 190's were tough to get even in good times. That they had to stop producing 197's in oreder to produce the closed bow. So they waited until there was a certain number on order. Sounds like more of an issue is the dealer you are dealing with. There is a lot of that going around.

JohnE
03-02-2009, 09:25 AM
Shirly you jest, boats that were 60,000 are 100,000 now 4 years later with a few more power windows on them???? They were pricing boats based on a false easy money banking system and now its coming back to bite them in the ***. They need boats that people can afford bottom line or I see a grim future.

At the bayliner booth last week at the boat show they told me their sales were way down, too.:rolleyes:

russlars
03-02-2009, 09:42 AM
I really hate hearing the news about MC. I've owned one Malibu and two Master Craft boats. Personally, I wouldn’t have anything other than a Master Craft. Just to let you know, I've tried since the first week in January to order a new prostar 190. Finally gave up on it yesterday. The Dealer, blamed Master Craft on, 1st. hull rotation, 2nd. Master Craft offering discounts then refuse to give them on a 190, 3rd. offering very little on trade-in on a four year old boat. My dealer does not want used 197's. I understand both Master Craft and the Dealer need to make money, but, I was negotiating a 190 with a MSRP of 79,000.00. They just couldn’t get the numbers right. I wish MC the best but, they missed a sell.
$79,000 MSRP for a 190??? You have got to be kidding me!:eek: If that is true I have to agree with many of the other posters on this thread about the prices being way too high for MC's. If a dealer can't make a deal like that work, something must be wrong. If I were you I would look for a nice used 190. Last time I checked there were a lot of those around compared to 197's. You could probably trade your 197 and come out ahead on that deal.

wakeX2wake
03-02-2009, 09:45 AM
this all really sucks to hear that this is spreading... i feel for those in Vonore who are out of work... this does not come as a surprise to me at all however... when i looked a month or so ago at the current market price on my boat i was honestly surprised at how bad it had gotten... i can't say i blame MC... in the tough times people could decide to downgrade from a 50'+ to the 30' range and there's a boat sold which is profit made which is someone keeping their current job and possibly getting close to someone getting their job back...

the cut backs are truly unfortunate and sad to hear but the reality of the situation is that only the strong survive and this is one heck of a storm businesses in all sectors are having to weather

i will share my personal bank statement w/ anyone who doesn't believe wholeheartedly that i am doing all i can to turn this thing around... i'm sure there are others here w/ me...

Smoothie
03-02-2009, 11:13 AM
I cannot believe that there is that much cost in building these boats in my opinion MC,BU,and CC got greedy and now can't go backwards without screwing everyone who has purchased one of these over priced and hyped boats. Thats not to say they are not beautiful but when your base wake boat is $50k that has not changed hull wise since it was made is a joke. The Car market brand new cars are not moving. Used is going crazy. Its going to happen with boats. I feel bad for the dealers but the ones that can get good used product in and are strong on the service side will survive.

MSOUCY-TT
03-02-2009, 11:32 AM
I really hate hearing the news about MC. I've owned one Malibu and two Master Craft boats. Personally, I wouldn’t have anything other than a Master Craft. Just to let you know, I've tried since the first week in January to order a new prostar 190. Finally gave up on it yesterday. The Dealer, blamed Master Craft on, 1st. hull rotation, 2nd. Master Craft offering discounts then refuse to give them on a 190, 3rd. offering very little on trade-in on a four year old boat. My dealer does not want used 197's. I understand both Master Craft and the Dealer need to make money, but, I was negotiating a 190 with a MSRP of 79,000.00. They just couldn’t get the numbers right. I wish MC the best but, they missed a sell.

I have a PS 190 09 in stock, MCX PowerSlot,Zero Off,Stereo, cover, heater and cleats. I am looking for 54500$ CANADIAN, since I paid the boat when the exchange was at 0.91$US:). With this morning exchange, that 54500$Can is about 43K US !!!. Then add your sales taxes and shipping, and there is your 190. That situation was the other way around 18 months ago(US$ =CAN$), and I have lost quit a few sales from Canadians buying in the States:(. Every times the exchange is good for you guys, I am receiving phone calls from the States for used boats...Another example: X-14 07 MCX 50hres @50k Can = 39KUS!!!
Sorry for the treadjack but I am also doing everything for MasterCraft not loosing a sale ;)!

Skidawg
03-02-2009, 11:42 AM
$79,000 MSRP for a 190??? You have got to be kidding me!:eek: If that is true I have to agree with many of the other posters on this thread about the prices being way too high for MC's. If a dealer can't make a deal like that work, something must be wrong. If I were you I would look for a nice used 190. Last time I checked there were a lot of those around compared to 197's. You could probably trade your 197 and come out ahead on that deal.

That’s Right, 190 Closed bow, metal flake blue and white, RTP engine w/ standard transmission, but loaded with options. Tandem, low profile trailer, MTS system, zero off, am/fm/cd, w/amp. and sub., mini tower, rakes, bimini, tower speakers, heater and heated seats. MSRP 79,000.00.

I was trying to trade a X-7 with similar options. This boat has been garage kept since day one. It looks like a new boat. My dealer just can't move 197's and X-7's.

Kyle's_prostar205
03-02-2009, 11:58 AM
That's just to bad to hear. Is it true that "bu" shut down one of their plants as well?

Itsme
03-02-2009, 12:37 PM
I will concede to that.......

Yep - Infinity did not last for long.....

JohnE
03-02-2009, 12:37 PM
Let's say all these MC's are overpriced by 15% hypothetically. Heck, give it 20 or 30 percent. Do you think that everyone would be beating down the door to buy them if they were simply priced lower? If you do, I think you are crazy.

And I agree with Smoothie. Mfg's can't reduce pricing much. That would screw anyone trying to trade up to a new boat and wouldn't help anyone even if it were possible. Except for the rare buyer who is currently boatless.

TX.X-30 fan
03-02-2009, 12:44 PM
Let's say all these MC's are overpriced by 15% hypothetically. Heck, give it 20 or 30 percent. Do you think that everyone would be beating down the door to buy them if they were simply priced lower? If you do, I think you are crazy.

And I agree with Smoothie. Mfg's can't reduce pricing much. That would screw anyone trying to trade up to a new boat and wouldn't help anyone even if it were possible. Except for the rare buyer who is currently boatless.




You should really wait till later in the day to start drinking. :D

JohnE
03-02-2009, 12:51 PM
You should really wait till later in the day to start drinking. :D

In case you haven't heard, you can't drink all day if you don't start in the morning....:D

David4MCSammyDuvall
03-02-2009, 01:29 PM
Thanks (Go Red) for explaining about the marketability. It made sense. I don't want my MC to be compared to Bayliner or Moomba. There's no comparison between Bayliner and MasterCraft. I agree with (Smoothie) that MasterCraft boats are way too overpriced. $79,000 for 190's ?!?!
I purchased my 1995 MC ProStar 190 Sammy Duvall for $18,000.
Big jump from $18,000 to $ 79,000.
Did the buyer's earnings/salaries increase over these years ? Probably not much.
If my earning/salary increases, then it would match my budget to buy a new MasterCraft boat.
I agree with (TX. X-30 fan) that MasterCraft Boat Company need to make boats that BUYER can afford, not what the BANK can loan.
I wanted to thank you to all the MasterCraft Boat Company employees for making such beautiful boats. I'm praying for smooth transitional period for all MC employees and hoping that the economy will improve to allow all MC employees to go back to work for MasterCraft Boat Company soon. ;)

ski_king
03-02-2009, 01:51 PM
Yep - Infinity did not last for long.....

It is understood that a wide product range is needed to survive, but per my count, not including the 300 MC now produces 13 different hulls. Some are very close in size to others.
Soundss like a lot of molds to maintain to me.

1. 190/197/X7
2. 200/X2
3. X-1 (205V)
4. 214/214V/X214
5. 215X15
6. 220
7. 235/X35
8. 245/X45
9. 255/X55
10. 265
11. 280/X80
12. X-Star
13. 230/X30

Eagle Lake Rebel
03-02-2009, 02:00 PM
Ski King don't leave out my old friend the X30/230!

JohnE
03-02-2009, 02:04 PM
. I agree with (Smoothie) that MasterCraft boats are way too overpriced. $79,000 for 190's ?!?!
I purchased my 1995 MC ProStar 190 Sammy Duvall for $18,000.
Big jump from $18,000 to $ 79,000.
.


A nicely optioned 190 with mcx/ slot, stereo, heater, shower, etc. will sell for around $60K with a trailer I believe. Don't get too caught up in msrp. Still a ton of money, no question. You didn't buy that 95 new for $18K. So a really bad comparison. Used price vs. sticker.

cbryan70
03-02-2009, 02:37 PM
No but new it was probably right around 25k.......

cbryan70
03-02-2009, 02:44 PM
Suggested retail on a 78 was 9k suggested retail on a 89 was right at about 20, suggested retail on a 95 was about 25k, a 2000 base was about 34k, 2008 list was around 48k.......

wakeX2wake
03-02-2009, 02:50 PM
It is understood that a wide product range is needed to survive, but per my count, not including the 300 MC now produces 12 different hulls. Some are very close in size to others.
Soundss like a lot of molds to maintain to me.

from an engineering standpoint this actually makes production balancing easier... the more molds you have to make boats w/ the easier it is to get molds out cleaned and serviced and ready to go again... if you make 3 models and you take one out the clean/service it and start up on the other and something weird happens w/ it (as is VERY OFTEN the case in large scale manufacturing) you're under the gun to get the other one in and praying you don't have to shut down production due to tooling issues...

on the flipside... i agree to a point... what's the point in have an x35, x45, and x55... and a ps 190, ps197, a ps214, and a ps214v... its like all the boat kind of overlap a lot... kind of na overkill on available products but i'm really gonna keep my mouth shut b/c MC has been making a lot more money than i have over the past ___ years

craig3972
03-02-2009, 02:55 PM
My friend is waiting for the local MC dealer to drop his price on an X2 he would like. He went to the boat show, told the dealer what he wanted and what he was willing to pay for it. Gave the dealer his contact info and left it at that.
How come the price of boats is 7k more at day 1 of the boat show vs day 3?
Dealers make a large chunk of the selling price of the boat, it is really up to them to come to the table with some better pricing if MC is going to survive all this.
MC needs to move boats right now... they shouldnt be giving them away.. but they gotta try something more creative in this current climate

bobx1
03-02-2009, 03:01 PM
.. but they gotta try something more creative in this current climate

How about Cash Rewards!:D

MSOUCY-TT
03-02-2009, 03:08 PM
How come the price of boats is 7k more at day 1 of the boat show vs day 3?


I don't know about that but, once again because of the exchange rate with US money, I can easily have up to 7k difference for the same model in stock. I have a X-15 09 fully loaded received in august 08 that cost me less then the base one receive today( 1.08 vs 1.29!!!) That is a large chunk of difference:)

JohnE
03-02-2009, 03:13 PM
My friend is waiting for the local MC dealer to drop his price on an X2 he would like. He went to the boat show, told the dealer what he wanted and what he was willing to pay for it. Gave the dealer his contact info and left it at that.
How come the price of boats is 7k more at day 1 of the boat show vs day 3?
Dealers make a large chunk of the selling price of the boat, it is really up to them to come to the table with some better pricing if MC is going to survive all this.
MC needs to move boats right now... they shouldnt be giving them away.. but they gotta try something more creative in this current climate


Greedy dealer if that is the case.

But define "large chunk".

TX.X-30 fan
03-02-2009, 03:21 PM
Greedy dealer if that is the case.

But define "large chunk".



Chunk is a large chinese person so its just repetitive to say large chunk.

scott023
03-02-2009, 03:25 PM
from an engineering standpoint this actually makes production balancing easier... the more molds you have to make boats w/ the easier it is to get molds out cleaned and serviced and ready to go again... if you make 3 models and you take one out the clean/service it and start up on the other and something weird happens w/ it (as is VERY OFTEN the case in large scale manufacturing) you're under the gun to get the other one in and praying you don't have to shut down production due to tooling issues...

on the flipside... i agree to a point... what's the point in have an x35, x45, and x55... and a ps 190, ps197, a ps214, and a ps214v... its like all the boat kind of overlap a lot... kind of na overkill on available products but i'm really gonna keep my mouth shut b/c MC has been making a lot more money than i have over the past ___ years

I think wake hit the nail on the head... this is the way it was explained to us at the factory (with the mold rotation). Seemed to make a lot of sense to me.

wakeX2wake
03-02-2009, 03:26 PM
I think wake hit the nail on the head... this is the way it was explained to us at the factory (with the mold rotation). Seemed to make a lot of sense to me.

hot dog!!! that degree paid off

craig3972
03-02-2009, 04:19 PM
[/QUOTE]But define "large chunk".[/QUOTE]

Dunnno? ... but i sure would like to.
I look at it this way. I bought a Dodge truck from a dealership that was in large, luxurious and well appointed building. I tried to grind the salesman on the price a bit - he tells me they only make $500 to sell this vehicle.

Gee, $500 divided by the sales and service force, lease and overhead on the building. Things dont add up there. My guess is that dealers make ( large chinese man) more than we know. I would guess as high as 30% of selling price.
Some of the richest guys i know own factory dealerships.

Is it the same for boat dealers? I doubt they do it for the love of the sport... gotta feed the kids something.

Smoothie
03-02-2009, 04:20 PM
I do know a guy on my lake that just bought a 2008 SANTE 210 no hours loaded with no trailer for $35k. So we know CC cost of building is not much different than anyone else. How did he get that deal? When I heard that my stomach started hurting.

craig3972
03-02-2009, 04:21 PM
But define "large chunk".[/QUOTE]

Dunnno? ... but i sure would like to.
I look at it this way. I bought a Dodge truck from a dealership that was in large, luxurious and well appointed building. I tried to grind the salesman on the price a bit - he tells me they only make $500 to sell this vehicle.

Gee, $500 divided by the sales and service force, lease and overhead on the building. Things dont add up there. My guess is that dealers make ( large chinese man) more than we know. I would guess as high as 30% of selling price.
Some of the richest guys i know own factory dealerships.

Is it the same for boat dealers? I doubt they do it for the love of the sport... gotta feed the kids something.[/QUOTE]

JohnE
03-02-2009, 04:24 PM
I do know a guy on my lake that just bought a 2008 SANTE 210 no hours loaded with no trailer for $35k. So we know CC cost of building is not much different than anyone else. How did he get that deal? When I heard that my stomach started hurting.

I have to believe the dealer cost would be more than that on that boat. Something ain't right.

Delete1
03-02-2009, 05:24 PM
A very well renowned Marina up hear in the Ottawa area has just signed on with Mastercraft to sell their boats. There are only a few Mastercraft dealers in Canada as far as I can see. Luckily for me it is about 15mins. away from my summer place.

SunCoast 83
03-02-2009, 06:01 PM
You have good thoughts David. You could not buy a new MC with that salary without serious sacrifice. Some people are willing to do it. MC has felt that their niche is to be the very best and that is why they cost so much. It cannot be done cheaply. If they dropped into a cheaper zone, they would have to then compete with Bayliner and Moomba. Most of us would complain if MC made a 20K boat, and how it would devalue the current high end boats to be associated with such.

I owned 2 Tiges for years and watched that company move. They once produced a 'switch' model that was made with cheaper vinyl, a low budget dashboard and the such. Mostly people complained of how cheap it felt and it reflected badly on the entire company. Some people would then come on a website like wakeworld and start spouting ignorance that all Tiges were like that. I think it hurt the higher end boats more than it helped to boost the company by selling the lower end. So they quit making them. Now 2009 Tiges are even further upgraded, and are very nice boats...but the pricetag put me out of their league. So I bought a gently used MC.

Master Craft, Correct Craft, Tige, Malibu......They all lost their way. They have helped turn Water Skiing into a rich man's sport. Is going to be there with cricket and polo. Everything else is just viewed as a cheap knock off,,,,sad

justinglow
03-02-2009, 06:15 PM
Master Craft, Correct Craft, Tige, Malibu......They all lost their way. They have helped turn Water Skiing into a rich man's sport. Is going to be there with cricket and polo. Everything else is just viewed as a cheap knock off,,,,sad

Jay you hit it right on the head. I never understood why Mastercraft would make a new PS190 and think the common man could afford it at $50K. If the banks never gave 20 year notes on them then MC and the rest of the companies probably could not have sold them. I am curious how this will all settle when it's done.

TMCNo1
03-02-2009, 06:23 PM
But define "large chunk".

Dunnno? ... but i sure would like to.
I look at it this way. I bought a Dodge truck from a dealership that was in large, luxurious and well appointed building. I tried to grind the salesman on the price a bit - he tells me they only make $500 to sell this vehicle.

Gee, $500 divided by the sales and service force, lease and overhead on the building. Things dont add up there. My guess is that dealers make ( large chinese man) more than we know. I would guess as high as 30% of selling price.
Some of the richest guys i know own factory dealerships.

Is it the same for boat dealers? I doubt they do it for the love of the sport... gotta feed the kids something.[/quote][/quote]


Here's everyone's answer, beats Cash Rewards!
45058

JohnE
03-02-2009, 06:55 PM
Master Craft, Correct Craft, Tige, Malibu......They all lost their way. They have helped turn Water Skiing into a rich man's sport. Is going to be there with cricket and polo. Everything else is just viewed as a cheap knock off,,,,sad


Please. I don't think much has changed in 20 years. My buddy bought an '88 SN 2001 brand new in '88 and financed it for 12 years. Ski boats weren't exactly chump change back then either. Boat quality and amenities are much improved since then and pricing does reflect it. If a new MC, CC, tige, Bu or whatever isn't in the budget there are a lot of good used ones that will be. And you can have a lot of fun behind the cheap knock off's too.

BIGBADBLUE
03-02-2009, 07:17 PM
If you do the financial math the increase are not out of line THAT bad ...

I bought my 205 in 1994 for $23,500 ... at least that is the number I remember. If you increase that by 3.5% (basic CPI) for 15 years the purchase price in 2009 should be $39,370. 5% = $48,854 and 6% = $56,319. Could you buy a 205 equivalent (214?) for $39K? No way. So MC has increased their prcing more than CPI to 6% or 7% per year. That does seem high.

I have no idea what the above means but I have the flu and I am bored.

Jerseydave
03-02-2009, 08:26 PM
If you do the financial math the increase are not out of line THAT bad ...

I bought my 205 in 1994 for $23,500 ... at least that is the number I remember. If you increase that by 3.5% (basic CPI) for 15 years the purchase price in 2009 should be $39,370. 5% = $48,854 and 6% = $56,319. Could you buy a 205 equivalent (214?) for $39K? No way. So MC has increased their prcing more than CPI to 6% or 7% per year. That does seem high.

I have no idea what the above means but I have the flu and I am bored.

I think my '94 prostar with LT1 powerslot, bimini top and trailer was around $29K. That comes to $48,585 @ 3.5% increase for 15 years. Sounds more in line to me.
(Hope you feel better) :)

JohnE
03-02-2009, 08:32 PM
I think my '94 prostar with LT1 powerslot, bimini top and trailer was around $29K. That comes to $48,585 @ 3.5% increase for 15 years. Sounds more in line to me.
(Hope you feel better) :)


See, they were overpriced way back then, too.:D

What was an american skier back then? Now there's a boat company who cared about skiers. Not like the big 3.

wakeX2wake
03-03-2009, 10:03 AM
my thing on this... yes the price increases may not align w/ the quick inflation calculations but look at what else you're getting on these boats... how much have they learned about making boats between now and then?... your 94 didn't have a tower option or a JL audio package (that imho is better than the Bose that's coming in Gm vehicles... and i'm a HUGE fan of Bose sound)... your boat comes w/ a head unit that's ACTUALLY WATERPROOF (it won't fry it and you have to buy your friend a new head unit when you spray him and both your g/fs sitting on the dock w/ a waverunner and they're 20 ft from the boat)... iirc 94 is the VERY FIRST YEAR anyone ever came w/ an EFI engine (kind of on the forefront of this technology thing)... how many hp are you cranking in a 94 vs a new motor... didn't have an option for heated seats... heater... shower... heck i bet the seats in a new one are even more comfy...

i know the new boats are a LOT more expensive comparatively but you have to stop and realize that you're getting a WHOLE LOT more boat w/ a brand new MC

Jesus_Freak
03-03-2009, 12:29 PM
Master Craft, Correct Craft, Tige, Malibu......They all lost their way. They have helped turn Water Skiing into a rich man's sport....

I am not going to disagree about boats being expensive, but keep in mind that they (like oil refineries, Walmart, etc.) have found pricing structures that work, i.e. meet corporate objectives, pension funds, stock dividends, salaries, R&D, etc. If no one wants a boat at the retail price, the price falls. If people buy, the price stands.

beatle78
03-03-2009, 09:56 PM
It's unfortunate, but not surprising. Nearly every industry in the U.S. is laying off workers.

Depending on if you count contractors, ect, we laid off between 11%-22% in our engineering dept.

We're not going out of business and I doubt Mastercraft is either. (They might have if they didn't do the layoffs).

I don't envy the people that have to make those decisions. My conscience can't handle it.

kycat2007
03-03-2009, 10:50 PM
I think a lot of companies will have to find out where the market bottoms when it comes to stock inventory. My company has reduced its prices almost $3000 since Jan. There is no proof as of yet that at this price the customers are willing to buy again. We may see a drop of another $3000 before the end of the year.

I talked to the local dealer here in KY and she said that Mastercrafts are selling for them. they recently have started adding on to the building increasing the showroom.
But this could be a one case scenario.
Say Mastercraft gets to the point where stock of X2s is like 40 units. they were selling them for $75000 last year. Soon they will have to find that price point where people will start buying again. If we are in an economy of the 80's, that price may come down some $10000-20000 before people really get interseted. It is harder to finace a boat for 8-10 years like some were doing the last few years. The boats at the current prices are a big payment if financed for 5 years like the old days.

bbymgr
03-03-2009, 11:34 PM
I think a lot of companies will have to find out where the market bottoms when it comes to stock inventory. My company has reduced its prices almost $3000 since Jan. There is no proof as of yet that at this price the customers are willing to buy again. We may see a drop of another $3000 before the end of the year.

I talked to the local dealer here in KY and she said that Mastercrafts are selling for them. they recently have started adding on to the building increasing the showroom.
But this could be a one case scenario.
Say Mastercraft gets to the point where stock of X2s is like 40 units. they were selling them for $75000 last year. Soon they will have to find that price point where people will start buying again. If we are in an economy of the 80's, that price may come down some $10000-20000 before people really get interseted. It is harder to finace a boat for 8-10 years like some were doing the last few years. The boats at the current prices are a big payment if financed for 5 years like the old days.


Same here. My MasterCraft Dealer Doubled his showroom over the winter and tripled his shop size. They can work on 15 boats at a time now. The new shop is really nice.

SunCoast 83
03-04-2009, 10:01 PM
There ok...just having to make some painful adjustments to the new economic climate

WTRSK1R
04-05-2009, 09:17 AM
If you do the financial math the increase are not out of line THAT bad ...

I bought my 205 in 1994 for $23,500 ... at least that is the number I remember. If you increase that by 3.5% (basic CPI) for 15 years the purchase price in 2009 should be $39,370. 5% = $48,854 and 6% = $56,319. Could you buy a 205 equivalent (214?) for $39K? No way. So MC has increased their prcing more than CPI to 6% or 7% per year. That does seem high.

I have no idea what the above means but I have the flu and I am bored.

Lets do the math another way. I bought my 205 for around $24K in 1992 (looks like you got a better deal then me:rolleyes:) At that time, IIRC, a new Bayliner was about $6K or a factor of 4X. Today, that same Bayliner is probably about $10K-$12K (just guessing, no real idea) so a new MC should be about $40K -$48K. Seems to be right on target if you apply the math based on the multiplier.

Any way you look at it, you get what you pay for...Just sayin

flya750
04-05-2009, 12:23 PM
I don't mean to sound callous either... but how can anyone not see this all coming... Has the cost to build a boat really doubled since when I boat my boat in PS190 in 1997? To replace my boat would be twice the amount I paid just ten years ago...

I have sympathy..but only so much... corporations got way to greedy.

sand2snow22
04-05-2009, 12:36 PM
Went to the coffee shop where my wife used to work 17 years ago. She said she used to sell a pound of coffee for $8. Now it's $15. Just sayin'........

bbymgr
04-05-2009, 12:43 PM
In 2001, Best Buy got in it's first Plasma TV. It was a 53" Pioneer selling for $14000. Now, plasma has been replaced with newer better technology and you wouldn't spend a quarter of that.

TX.X-30 fan
04-05-2009, 12:50 PM
In 2001, Best Buy got in it's first Plasma TV. It was a 53" Pioneer selling for $14000. Now, plasma has been replaced with newer better technology and you wouldn't spend a quarter of that.



What the he!! does that have to do with the price of coffee, please try and stay topical. :mad::mad:

bbymgr
04-05-2009, 12:53 PM
Just saying that not all consumer products increase over time. Electronics companies spend just as much on R&D as boat manufacturers, but their prices come down over time.

bbymgr
04-05-2009, 12:55 PM
Double frown TX........... easy there big gun. Are you constipated today?

TX.X-30 fan
04-05-2009, 12:58 PM
Just saying that not all consumer products increase over time. Electronics companies spend just as much on R&D as boat manufacturers, but their prices come down over time.





I got your point I was fecking with ya. :D

bxroads
04-05-2009, 01:22 PM
Apply the inflation factor and you still can't get from the MSRP in 1997 to the MSRP in 2009 for a base Prostar 190. Not even close.

TX.X-30 fan
04-05-2009, 01:56 PM
Apply the inflation factor and you still can't get from the MSRP in 1997 to the MSRP in 2009 for a base Prostar 190. Not even close.




The boats now are loaded with expensive innovations, this line of thinking has very little merit. IMHO.

TMCNo1
04-05-2009, 02:13 PM
Went to the coffee shop where my wife used to work 17 years ago. She said she used to sell a pound of coffee for $8. Now it's $15. Just sayin'........

Wow, that must be some special coffee, I just bought (two 12 oz. packs @ $4.39 ea.)1 1/2 lbs. yesterday for $9.26 including tax.

TX.X-30 fan
04-05-2009, 02:27 PM
. Are you constipated today?



Why thanks for asking, but no I had a couple of Activia's yesterday and all systems seem to be functioning as intended. :D:D

sand2snow22
04-05-2009, 03:31 PM
Wow, that must be some special coffee, I just bought (two 12 oz. packs @ $4.39 ea.)1 1/2 lbs. yesterday for $9.26 including tax.

It is special coffee :D You still have to grind it up, too :(


That was funny Tx......

TMCNo1
04-05-2009, 03:35 PM
Why thanks for asking, but no I had a couple of Activia's yesterday and all systems seem to be functioning as intended. :D:D


Maybe you just needed some Killer Chili, http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showpost.php?p=586939&postcount=1567

TMCNo1
04-05-2009, 03:38 PM
Just saying that not all consumer products increase over time. Electronics companies spend just as much on R&D as boat manufacturers, but their prices come down over time.

But I bet they haven't engineered a flat screen TV that will float and run 44 mph!http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_6.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZSfox000)

TX.X-30 fan
04-05-2009, 03:59 PM
Maybe you just needed some Killer Chili, http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showpost.php?p=586939&postcount=1567




Damn I never saw that #1 I got tears rolling. :D

bxroads
04-05-2009, 09:23 PM
The boats now are loaded with expensive innovations, this line of thinking has very little merit. IMHO.


What innovations might a 2008 prostar 190 have over a 1997?

JohnE
04-06-2009, 08:28 AM
What innovations might a 2008 prostar 190 have over a 1997?


Completely different hull design for one.

Different engine, DBW, Zero Off, Vdig......

scott023
04-06-2009, 09:18 AM
Completely different hull design for one.

Different engine, DBW, Zero Off, Vdig......

You figure there's enough there to double the cost of the product? The automobile industry has not doubled their costs in the last ten years, and there is a lot more innovation bulit into them then there was ten years ago as well (Nav, more air bags, XM/Sirious, crash standards has increase, Onstar etc.).

JohnE
04-06-2009, 09:28 AM
You figure there's enough there to double the cost of the product? The automobile industry has not doubled their costs in the last ten years, and there is a lot more innovation bulit into them then there was ten years ago as well (Nav, more air bags, XM/Sirious, crash standards has increase, Onstar etc.).

Yes. Materials, R&D, wages, health ins., computers, marketing, sponsorships, facility have all gone way up in 10 years. Maybe not enough to exactly double it, but substantially.

Why has the cost of houses gone up 100% in my area in 10 years? Materials are up, land was up, wages are up. And the product hasn't changed one bit.

I don't know anything about the pricing of the auto industry, but I don't think you can compare the 2. When MC is building 3000 units a year by hand, and the auto industry is building millions.

coz
04-06-2009, 09:37 AM
But I bet they haven't engineered a flat screen TV that will float and run 44 mph!http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_6.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZSfox000)

You need to get out a little more #1 :confused:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3075/3210474102_c9645fc045_o.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1251/1290508561_6eaafa381d_b.jpg

scott023
04-06-2009, 09:57 AM
Yes. Materials, R&D, wages, health ins., computers, marketing, sponsorships, facility have all gone way up in 10 years. Maybe not enough to exactly double it, but substantially.

Why has the cost of houses gone up 100% in my area in 10 years? Materials are up, land was up, wages are up. And the product hasn't changed one bit.

I don't know anything about the pricing of the auto industry, but I don't think you can compare the 2. When MC is building 3000 units a year by hand, and the auto industry is building millions.

John, the land and housing market is driven by demand... the market down there should prove that point. At what point in time has the boat market experienced such demand? I am pretty sure there isn't enough demand for boats to escalate prices 100%.

I think the auto industry is a fair comparison. There is not a lot of other products that are in that price range that depreciate as cars and boats do, and are bought purely for fun. No one needs a 80K car or boat. These are luxury items that are not needed. Just because people need cars, but not boats, so the manufacturers move more productdoes not mean that the two are not comparable. If there was a demand for millions of baots each year, I am sure the boat industry would stop building them by hand.

Tomsinamerica
04-06-2009, 10:12 AM
I don't think you can compare the modern day auto industry with the boating one. Maybe if you compared something specialized and handbuilt like aston martin (are they hand build now?! :s) But to compare the production costs of a Ford versus a mastercraft, it's apples and oranges. When I was cleaning my boat yesterday, I was thinking it's crazy how much stuff goes into one. Just the sheer amount of resin & glass is pretty expensive, then all the aluminum for the tower... the engine costs a bob or two as well I would imagine. If you look at sailboats... you get a lot more for your money with a mastercraft!!! a 14' Laser dingy sets you back around $6k now. It weighs 100lbs!

scott023
04-06-2009, 10:35 AM
I don't think you can compare the modern day auto industry with the boating one. Maybe if you compared something specialized and handbuilt like aston martin (are they hand build now?! :s) But to compare the production costs of a Ford versus a mastercraft, it's apples and oranges. When I was cleaning my boat yesterday, I was thinking it's crazy how much stuff goes into one. Just the sheer amount of resin & glass is pretty expensive, then all the aluminum for the tower... the engine costs a bob or two as well I would imagine. If you look at sailboats... you get a lot more for your money with a mastercraft!!! a 14' Laser dingy sets you back around $6k now. It weighs 100lbs!

The way the product is made is inconsequential. There are two driving factors that push product cost higher... material cost and supply/demand.

The materials that are used to build both boats and cars are quite similar, as is the amount of materials that are needed. Also, the amount that the manufacturers are paying for labour has to be taken into account. According to MC numbers, they pay their staff less than any of the big three, and most of the imports (save for perhaps Honda). So to me material is a complete saw off. Talk stereos, aluminum for towers (how much aluminum is on my CTS? A lot more than is on a MC), glass. The motors that are used for these boats are the same as are used in the auto industry, with a few small differences, which are not enough to drive the cost of them that much higher than in a car or truck.

There is obviously more demand for autos than there are for boats, so the demand is not what is driving the price up. I wasn't interseted in the boating industry ten years ago, but i imagine the quailty of a MC has not changed, as it, from all accounts, has always been great.

It would be intersting to know what the actual cost of building a boat is... I guarantee that the build cost of one of these has not gone up 100% in ten years.

craig3972
04-06-2009, 10:53 AM
what do you think a dealers cut is on the sale of a boat?

MYMC
04-06-2009, 11:37 AM
The way the product is made is inconsequential. There are two driving factors that push product cost higher... material cost and supply/demand.

The materials that are used to build both boats and cars are quite similar, as is the amount of materials that are needed. Also, the amount that the manufacturers are paying for labour has to be taken into account. According to MC numbers, they pay their staff less than any of the big three, and most of the imports (save for perhaps Honda). So to me material is a complete saw off. Talk stereos, aluminum for towers (how much aluminum is on my CTS? A lot more than is on a MC), glass. The motors that are used for these boats are the same as are used in the auto industry, with a few small differences, which are not enough to drive the cost of them that much higher than in a car or truck.

There is obviously more demand for autos than there are for boats, so the demand is not what is driving the price up. I wasn't interseted in the boating industry ten years ago, but i imagine the quailty of a MC has not changed, as it, from all accounts, has always been great.

It would be intersting to know what the actual cost of building a boat is... I guarantee that the build cost of one of these has not gone up 100% in ten years.
Just to make sure I'm clear..."the way a product is made is inconsequential"? So the world's auto manufacturers bought all that robotic equipment to avoid paying out profit sharing?

"The materials that are used to build both boats and cars are quite similar, as is the amount of materials that are needed." So cars are fiberglass and resign? When did I miss this? BTW, not even a Corvette is fiberglass anymore. The materials used to build a boat come from oil...and how much was a barrel last summer?

"Talk stereos, aluminum for towers (how much aluminum is on my CTS? A lot more than is on a MC), glass. The motors that are used for these boats are the same as are used in the auto industry, with a few small differences, which are not enough to drive the cost of them that much higher than in a car or truck." Ever heard the term economies of scale? If you are buying 1000 stereos I'll sell them to you for "X" amount, try buying 100,000 and see what the discount is. This goes for raw materials as well as assembled components.

"There is obviously more demand for autos than there are for boats, so the demand is not what is driving the price up." Huh? There is more demand for a Ford F-150 pickup than for a Pagani Zonda roadster yet the Zonda costs 25 times what the pick-up does...so is the remaining $765,000 all profit? Hand built cost more...period otherwise what was the point of the industrial revolution? A new Corvette in 1984 was $24,891.00 base. A new ProStar was $20,000 (incl slot and trailer)...today a base no option Corvette MSRP $50,000 and the PS190 is $52,740 (slot & trailer)...seems pretty damn close to me.

Boats even as well built as an MC are built using techniques that are stone age compared to the auto industry...all which make a car affordable. Combine that with the scale of the number of people that buy a car and the commonality of parts used in mass production (i.e. platforms & engines used across brands and models) and you begin to see where this is all headed. BTW...if it weren't for trucks using the engine that Corvette uses the brand would have been killed off more than 10 years ago because there was no way a single platform could underwrite the cost of development and emissions testing...and they built 35,310 Corvettes in 2008.

MYMC
04-06-2009, 11:38 AM
what do you think a dealers cut is on the sale of a boat?
200-300% those guys are rolling in it!

KnoxX2
04-06-2009, 11:41 AM
200-300% those guys are rolling in it!

Boy I am glad you fianly came clean with this one.....................:rolleyes::D

TX.X-30 fan
04-06-2009, 11:43 AM
200-300% those guys are rolling in it!




I knew it, finally an honest man. :D

Tomsinamerica
04-06-2009, 12:30 PM
[QUOTE=scott023;587189]...(how much aluminum is on my CTS? A lot more than is on a MC)...

Maybe you hit the nail on the head here comparing your mass built auto to a handbuilt MC. I'm pretty certain my handbuilt boat will still be giving plenty of enjoyment in 20 years... your 20 year old CTS? Not so much.

Also - maybe that's the problem with GM. Maybe they're not making enough money which is why they need our taxes. If they just charged more then we'd be just dandy. (jk)

wakeX2wake
04-06-2009, 12:35 PM
all i know is that i would quit ANYTHING if i were offered $23 million to do it... especially work

incredible... they signed that guy up a long time ago knowing it would cost the $23 million to get rid of him... that's dumb on their part and as far as i'm concerned he's a genius

MYMC
04-06-2009, 01:10 PM
Boy I am glad you fianly came clean with this one.....................:rolleyes::D

I knew it, finally an honest man. :D

"a G5 airplane and lots of money...playaaaa!"

Les Grossman
Tropic Thunder

scott023
04-06-2009, 01:44 PM
Just to make sure I'm clear..."the way a product is made is inconsequential"? So the world's auto manufacturers bought all that robotic equipment to avoid paying out profit sharing?

"The materials that are used to build both boats and cars are quite similar, as is the amount of materials that are needed." So cars are fiberglass and resign? When did I miss this? BTW, not even a Corvette is fiberglass anymore. The materials used to build a boat come from oil...and how much was a barrel last summer?

"Talk stereos, aluminum for towers (how much aluminum is on my CTS? A lot more than is on a MC), glass. The motors that are used for these boats are the same as are used in the auto industry, with a few small differences, which are not enough to drive the cost of them that much higher than in a car or truck." Ever heard the term economies of scale? If you are buying 1000 stereos I'll sell them to you for "X" amount, try buying 100,000 and see what the discount is. This goes for raw materials as well as assembled components.

"There is obviously more demand for autos than there are for boats, so the demand is not what is driving the price up." Huh? There is more demand for a Ford F-150 pickup than for a Pagani Zonda roadster yet the Zonda costs 25 times what the pick-up does...so is the remaining $765,000 all profit? Hand built cost more...period otherwise what was the point of the industrial revolution? A new Corvette in 1984 was $24,891.00 base. A new ProStar was $20,000 (incl slot and trailer)...today a base no option Corvette MSRP $50,000 and the PS190 is $52,740 (slot & trailer)...seems pretty damn close to me.

Boats even as well built as an MC are built using techniques that are stone age compared to the auto industry...all which make a car affordable. Combine that with the scale of the number of people that buy a car and the commonality of parts used in mass production (i.e. platforms & engines used across brands and models) and you begin to see where this is all headed. BTW...if it weren't for trucks using the engine that Corvette uses the brand would have been killed off more than 10 years ago because there was no way a single platform could underwrite the cost of development and emissions testing...and they built 35,310 Corvettes in 2008.

Did you read the post? where in my post did I say cars were made of fiberglass and resin? Pretty sure I listed the items that were similar between the two.

Also, I agree with your economies of sale (I work with the second biggest grocery retailer in the world). I understand costing completely and know that on scale MC can not be getting charged that much more for commodities.

I understand that hand built costs more, but why do MC employees at the plant make the middle class income they are paid? Who is making the money? Answer should be obvious.

Go to Ferarri, Bentley, Zonda, look at what their employees make. My guess would be more than an average MC plant worker. Dorton said when the factory is at full production he has 600 workers making between 30-70K. That's 14.42-33.65 an hour. The hourly salaries these people are making do not translate... Let's say for interest sake it takes 1000 hours to build a boat. At the top rate that Dorton states, that's $33650. So on a 85000 boat there is how much $ in material? 50K? No way.

You would have to be crazy to think there is not a huge amount of profit being made on these boats, and the industry (not just MC) have used inflation as a tool to increase profits, not out of necessity. The dealers can talk and defend all they want, but this is a big money business.

MC makes the best boats, PERIOD. I am not complaining about the price, obviously I spent the dough so I can't. Just don't give me inflation is the reason boats cost what they do, the manufactureres and dealers are making mroe than they used to.

MYMC
04-06-2009, 02:24 PM
Did you read the post? where in my post did I say cars were made of fiberglass and resin? Pretty sure I listed the items that were similar between the two.

Also, I agree with your economies of sale (I work with the second biggest grocery retailer in the world). I understand costing completely and know that on scale MC can not be getting charged that much more for commodities.

I understand that hand built costs more, but why do MC employees at the plant make the middle class income they are paid? Who is making the money? Answer should be obvious.

Go to Ferarri, Bentley, Zonda, look at what their employees make. My guess would be more than an average MC plant worker. Dorton said when the factory is at full production he has 600 workers making between 30-70K. That's 14.42-33.65 an hour. The hourly salaries these people are making do not translate... Let's say for interest sake it takes 1000 hours to build a boat. At the top rate that Dorton states, that's $33650. So on a 85000 boat there is how much $ in material? 50K? No way.

You would have to be crazy to think there is not a huge amount of profit being made on these boats, and the industry (not just MC) have used inflation as a tool to increase profits, not out of necessity. The dealers can talk and defend all they want, but this is a big money business.

MC makes the best boats, PERIOD. I am not complaining about the price, obviously I spent the dough so I can't. Just don't give me inflation is the reason boats cost what they do, the manufactureres and dealers are making mroe than they used to.
I read it...did you?

YOU said "the way a product is made is inconsequential", YOU SAID "The materials that are used to build both boats and cars are quite similar"...hence the comment about FIBERGLASS since that is what a MasterCraft is built with and the VAST majority of autos are built from steel I cannot figure out the basis of your comments! YOU SAID "boats and cars are quite similar, as is the amount of materials that are needed"...how much would you like to wager on this statement? You basing this on weight?

Could be my favorite statement: "I understand costing completely and know that on scale MC can not be getting charged that much more for commodities." In 2008 GM delivered 2,980,688 vehicles, MasterCraft less than 2800 (almost 1%)...I'm sure you are correct MC is buying parts at near the same cost. Same as the local retail store is buying at WalMart cost...oh wait there are no more local stores!

I'll admit it your right...MasterCraft and all boat dealers have been getting rich for years! Ha ha we have been sticking it to every one! But now you caught us...damn!

Funny, right now all those filthy rich boat companies and dealers are dropping like flies...currently one boat dealer a week is going bankrupt...I know, I know must be poor management of all those millions!

MYMC
04-06-2009, 02:29 PM
Go to Ferarri, Bentley, Zonda, look at what their employees make. My guess would be more than an average MC plant worker. Dorton said when the factory is at full production he has 600 workers making between 30-70K. That's 14.42-33.65 an hour. The hourly salaries these people are making do not translate... Let's say for interest sake it takes 1000 hours to build a boat. At the top rate that Dorton states, that's $33650. So on a 85000 boat there is how much $ in material? 50K? No way.
Talk about oversimplification! No need to include such small items as:
Interest on financed materials and finished stock product
Marketing (MC spends more with the Pro Tour than all inboard companies combined)
Benefit costs
Compliance
Materials (I know $50K)
Utilities
Office & Sales staff (someone has to keep those orders flowing)

And the dirtiest word of all...PROFIT...no one is allowed to earn one of those anymore.

TX.X-30 fan
04-06-2009, 02:38 PM
Profit is relative, the attorney worth $400 and hour is the same guy that raises holy he!! when the plumber wants $85 and hour to pull his wife's pons out of the clean-out.

flipper
04-06-2009, 02:42 PM
Profit is relative, the attorney worth $400 and hour is the same guy that raises holy he!! when the plumber wants $85 and hour to pull his wife's pons out of the clean-out.

4582045820

scott023
04-06-2009, 03:18 PM
Talk about oversimplification! No need to include such small items as:
Interest on financed materials and finished stock product
Marketing (MC spends more with the Pro Tour than all inboard companies combined)
Benefit costs
Compliance
Materials (I know $50K)
Utilities
Office & Sales staff (someone has to keep those orders flowing)

And the dirtiest word of all...PROFIT...no one is allowed to earn one of those anymore.

These are items everyone has to factor in, not just MC. Should really go without saying.

Of course everyone needs to make profit... also should go without saying.

MYMC
04-06-2009, 03:23 PM
These are items everyone has to factor in, not just MC. Should really go without saying.

Of course everyone needs to make profit... also should go without saying.
Care to share what amount you find palatable for a marine dealer and/or the manufacturer?

scott023
04-06-2009, 03:24 PM
I read it...did you?

YOU said "the way a product is made is inconsequential", YOU SAID "The materials that are used to build both boats and cars are quite similar"...hence the comment about FIBERGLASS since that is what a MasterCraft is built with and the VAST majority of autos are built from steel I cannot figure out the basis of your comments! YOU SAID "boats and cars are quite similar, as is the amount of materials that are needed"...how much would you like to wager on this statement? You basing this on weight?

Could be my favorite statement: "I understand costing completely and know that on scale MC can not be getting charged that much more for commodities." In 2008 GM delivered 2,980,688 vehicles, MasterCraft less than 2800 (almost 1%)...I'm sure you are correct MC is buying parts at near the same cost. Same as the local retail store is buying at WalMart cost...oh wait there are no more local stores!

I'll admit it your right...MasterCraft and all boat dealers have been getting rich for years! Ha ha we have been sticking it to every one! But now you caught us...damn!

Funny, right now all those filthy rich boat companies and dealers are dropping like flies...currently one boat dealer a week is going bankrupt...I know, I know must be poor management of all those millions!

How about stereo equipment, glass, seat foam, drive train equipment? Are those items not similar on the two of them? How about all of the product used to build a trailer? These are the items I noted on my original post.

I also DIDN"T say they are buying at the same cost... I said that I can't see their costs being that much higher, i.e I can't see the prices being 600% higher for a speaker or stereo deck.

MYMC
04-06-2009, 03:28 PM
These are items everyone has to factor in, not just MC. Should really go without saying.
Really? Because as a small business owner I find they are scalable as well, hence they shouldn't "go without saying". Example: my health care benefit cost for each employees is higher due to only have 7 employees. Vacations cost more because each employee is more important to the operation...etc.

MYMC
04-06-2009, 03:34 PM
How about stero equipment, glass, seat foam, drive train equipment? Are those items not similar on the two of them? How about all of the product used to build a trailer? These are the items I noted on my original post.

I also DIDN"T say they are buying at the same cost... I said that I can't see their costs being that much higher, i.e I can't see the prices being 600% higher for a speaker or stereo deck.
Nope...none of the products you listed are common to automotive.

Stereo: outside of boating "head units" are dead and gone...everything is integrated (climate control, radio, Ipod, GPS etc). This was done on purpose to eliminate aftermarket stereos interfering with on board diagnostics.

Glass: Safety shield in cars...try putting your face through a boat window. Also do you see any commonality shapes or frames?

Seat foam: Nope...ever seen reticulated foam in a car?

Drive train: Engines yes, but we have to pay an aftermarket company to make them marine ready...insert middle man here. Commonality past that does not exist.

scott023
04-06-2009, 03:35 PM
Really? Because as a small business owner I find they are scalable as well, hence they shouldn't "go without saying". Example: my health care benefit cost for each employees is higher due to only have 7 employees. Vacations cost more because each employee is more important to the operation...etc.

I am a small business owner as well, I employ 106 people right now. It seems to me that there are a lot of experienced/mature people on the board that know that the items are a cost for all business. I apologize if it seems I was taking that for granted.

TX.X-30 fan
04-06-2009, 03:36 PM
Why would anyone working at Charlotte MC ever even want a vacation??

MYMC
04-06-2009, 03:38 PM
Why would anyone working at Charlotte MC ever even want a vacation??
Simple...to get away from me!

Jim@BAWS
04-06-2009, 03:58 PM
What innovations might a 2008 prostar 190 have over a 1997?


Have ya ever thought that just maybe the RAW goods to produce the boat have gone up?
Vinyls, resins, cloth, steel, aluminum, copper, stainless stell, production, insurance, salaries

Producing a boat for less...please

Jim@BAWS

sand2snow22
04-06-2009, 04:07 PM
MasterCraft less than 2800 (almost 1%)...

On Fox Dorton said 4,000 units a year worldwide.

D3skier
04-06-2009, 04:08 PM
but wasn't that at full production... 2800 sounds a little more realistic especially with cutbacks and all

TX.X-30 fan
04-06-2009, 04:12 PM
Just try and buy some stainless stell, stell has gone nuts. :D

flipper
04-06-2009, 04:13 PM
Just try and buy some stainless stell, stell has gone nuts. :D

and chromed stell is even worse than that

MYMC
04-06-2009, 05:14 PM
On Fox Dorton said 4,000 units a year worldwide.
MC has never produced that number...they may be capable but have never done it. Best year was just over 3000 I think.

Sorry, gotta get back to counting money!

TX.X-30 fan
04-06-2009, 05:16 PM
MC has never produced that number...they may be capable but have never done it. Best year was just over 3000 I think.

Sorry, gotta get back to counting money!



Capitalist. :mad::mad:

trickskier
04-06-2009, 05:17 PM
MC has never produced that number...they may be capable but have never done it. Best year was just over 3000 I think.

Sorry, gotta get back to counting money!

Got your "Stimulus Money" eh???

MYMC
04-06-2009, 05:28 PM
[/B]



Capitalist. :mad::mad:

Got your "Stimulus Money" eh???

Wow...between these two posts talk about conflicted! LOL

No stimulus money here, I'll go down the drain all on my own!

east tx skier
04-06-2009, 05:35 PM
Profit is relative, the attorney worth $400 and hour is the same guy that raises holy he!! when the plumber wants $85 and hour to pull his wife's pons out of the clean-out.

I only wish I resembled that remark.

TX.X-30 fan
04-06-2009, 05:51 PM
I only wish I resembled that remark.




Do you mean the custom suits or the hourly rate?? :D:D


If its the latter I'm with you i'd be happy at 85 and the snake in my hand. :D

flya750
04-11-2009, 01:48 AM
Completely different hull design for one.

Different engine, DBW, Zero Off, Vdig......

When factoring in the price.. I will put my 1997 up against a 2007 anyday of the week and four times on Sunday.

The 2007 is NOT twice as good as my 1997.

My 1997 is loaded... LT1.. Loaded... I ski @ 35 to 38' off . I love my 1997. Now if I was skiing @ 22' off that would be a different story ;)

JohnE
04-11-2009, 11:56 AM
When factoring in the price.. I will put my 1997 up against a 2007 anyday of the week and four times on Sunday.

The 2007 is NOT twice as good as my 1997.

My 1997 is loaded... LT1.. Loaded... I ski @ 35 to 38' off . I love my 1997. Now if I was skiing @ 22' off that would be a different story ;)

The more I think about this thread and the prices of MC's I kind of get aggravated. Every company is in business to make money. The more the better. MC doesn't want or need to build the absolute best boat out there and sell it for as little as possible. That's probably not the best business plan. And for anyone who now wants to chime in and say "that's why their sales are down I'll call bs right now. Sales are down across the board. This isn't really directed to you, flya - just a general statement on my part.

I'm glad you are happy with your '97 and that there is no reason to upgrade. That's a great testimonial to the quality of the product that they produce. I don't see anyone trying to talk you into a new boat. If your boat was stolen tomorrow, would you look for another '97? What exactly would you look for? Would it be an evo hull? SN? BU?

ski_king
04-11-2009, 12:18 PM
In business there are 3 attributes that you can compete on.
Quality
Service
Price

A business picks 2 to compete on. It is almost impossible to sucessfully compete on all 3.

MasterCraft goes after the Quality and Service. In turn their price is higher.

Brand Moomba competes on price and Service, in turn the quality suffers.

ie: you get what you pay for

Witness140
04-11-2009, 01:09 PM
There is no mystery to this. It is supply/demand. They charge what people will pay and balance their production ability to that level. Up until this summer - banks were paying a lot of money for these boats. If you want to blame someone for the high prices - go blame the people who were taking out the loans to pay and encourage these high prices.

The entire world has just been turned upside down. The tidal wave will level and completely change the landscape. Ripples will still be bouncing around the pond for a long time because of what has happened.

The marine industry will change. Let's hope that MC gets through this ordeal first, then we can worry about which direction their prices will go second.

For certain.......it isn't just price that will change. Many factors will change, which will involve price point. It isn't as simple as 'lowering the price.'

And if I hear one more time that all MC has to do to fix all their problems is release a low cost bare bones ski boat like in yesteryear, I'm gonna scream. The only people that will benefit are the ones that are pushing it. These are the guys who are core skiers - that are skiing on older products, and don't want to pay all that coin for a new one. Newsflash - that market isn't that big. It would benefit a small handful, but in the grand scheme - isn't going to save a global marine boat manufacturer.

scott023
04-11-2009, 03:19 PM
There is no mystery to this. It is supply/demand. They charge what people will pay and balance their production ability to that level. Up until this summer - banks were paying a lot of money for these boats. If you want to blame someone for the high prices - go blame the people who were taking out the loans to pay and encourage these high prices.

The entire world has just been turned upside down. The tidal wave will level and completely change the landscape. Ripples will still be bouncing around the pond for a long time because of what has happened.

The marine industry will change. Let's hope that MC gets through this ordeal first, then we can worry about which direction their prices will go second.

For certain.......it isn't just price that will change. Many factors will change, which will involve price point. It isn't as simple as 'lowering the price.'

And if I hear one more time that all MC has to do to fix all their problems is release a low cost bare bones ski boat like in yesteryear, I'm gonna scream. The only people that will benefit are the ones that are pushing it. These are the guys who are core skiers - that are skiing on older products, and don't want to pay all that coin for a new one. Newsflash - that market isn't that big. It would benefit a small handful, but in the grand scheme - isn't going to save a global marine boat manufacturer.

I agree completely with witness... MC is in the niche they belong in, making a entry level boat will only damage the image and reputation they have worked hard to build.

TMCNo1
04-11-2009, 04:41 PM
Well at least boats aren't like candy bars, keeping the price the same, but making them smaller!:rolleyes:

scott023
04-11-2009, 06:28 PM
Well at least boats aren't like candy bars, keeping the price the same, but making them smaller!:rolleyes:

Consumers notice those changes? How about bags of chips? :rolleyes:

TMCNo1
04-11-2009, 06:47 PM
Consumers notice those changes? How about bags of chips? :rolleyes:

Tell me about it, toilet paper is even getting so thin, your fingers go the the tube it's wrapped on!:rolleyes::D

scott023
04-11-2009, 09:01 PM
Tell me about it, toilet paper is even getting so thin, your fingers go the the tube it's wrapped on!:rolleyes::D

Shouldn't complain about the TP Harold... that may be the only piece of a$$ some guys get.:D

flya750
04-11-2009, 11:05 PM
The more I think about this thread and the prices of MC's I kind of get aggravated. Every company is in business to make money. The more the better. MC doesn't want or need to build the absolute best boat out there and sell it for as little as possible. That's probably not the best business plan. And for anyone who now wants to chime in and say "that's why their sales are down I'll call bs right now. Sales are down across the board. This isn't really directed to you, flya - just a general statement on my part.

I'm glad you are happy with your '97 and that there is no reason to upgrade. That's a great testimonial to the quality of the product that they produce. I don't see anyone trying to talk you into a new boat. If your boat was stolen tomorrow, would you look for another '97? What exactly would you look for? Would it be an evo hull? SN? BU?

If my boat were stolen...What would I do? Interesting question.

I would not buy new one because new prices are whacked! Just whacked!

I would consider a promo or something a few years old. I would be very careful about which MC I would consider as they changed so many times in the past decade (not always for the best) I still don't think the new ones are worth the money they are asking and that's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. It's that simple. Luxury item or not..

I would consider a SN.. but I would first look into the possibility of changing the prop rotation / transmission? I like the rotation of the MC over the SN. I drive my friends SN and I don't like it around the dock. And let's face it.. I drive my boat around the dock all the time. Coming up in choppy waters etc.. I like the control I have with the MC. I don't feel I have any control of the SN around the dock.. but I just may need more practice. No BU for me...

Man... I parish the thought of my mint 1997 being stolen.. I would just cry ;) ;)

flya750
04-11-2009, 11:06 PM
Shouldn't complain about the TP Harold... that may be the only piece of a$$ some guys get.:D

I think we should nationalize TP. The cost of premium TP is insane.

TMCNo1
04-12-2009, 07:32 AM
I think we should nationalize TP. The cost of premium TP is insane.

Time for the gubment to bail out the paper/TP industry, looks like they'll need it to keep from being wiped out!:rolleyes::D

bxroads
04-12-2009, 10:02 AM
Speaking of supply/demand. If I live within a block from Jim, can I drive to Mike in NC to buy a MC? (or vise versa)

scott023
04-12-2009, 10:23 AM
Time for the gubment to bail out the paper/TP industry, looks like they'll need it to keep from being wiped out!:rolleyes::D

Oh no, you didn't go there. :D

flya750
04-12-2009, 11:40 AM
Oh no, you didn't go there. :D

Yeah..he did...:rolleyes:

JohnE
04-12-2009, 05:00 PM
If my boat were stolen...What would I do? Interesting question.

I would not buy new one because new prices are whacked! Just whacked!

I would consider a promo or something a few years old. I would be very careful about which MC I would consider as they changed so many times in the past decade (not always for the best) I still don't think the new ones are worth the money they are asking and that's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. It's that simple. Luxury item or not..

I would consider a SN.. but I would first look into the possibility of changing the prop rotation / transmission? I like the rotation of the MC over the SN. I drive my friends SN and I don't like it around the dock. And let's face it.. I drive my boat around the dock all the time. Coming up in choppy waters etc.. I like the control I have with the MC. I don't feel I have any control of the SN around the dock.. but I just may need more practice. No BU for me...

Man... I parish the thought of my mint 1997 being stolen.. I would just cry ;) ;)

Perish the thought, but I just was wondering if you'd choose to stay with the hull you have or what the choice would be. I agree the changes have not always been for the best. ie 98-00. I was just trying to put some perspective on the conversation. You never did answer the question.;)

flya750
04-13-2009, 12:35 AM
Perish the thought, but I just was wondering if you'd choose to stay with the hull you have or what the choice would be. I agree the changes have not always been for the best. ie 98-00. I was just trying to put some perspective on the conversation. You never did answer the question.;)

Okay... let me give your question another go. I can tell you this.. I WOULD NEVER consider an open bow 197 (just don't like the way they look - no offense to the owners of 197's). If I did stay with a MC.. it would have to be a PS190 2004 or newer. I doubt I would ever find a replacement of my 1997 in such mint shape. (fyi... I have had to replace most of my skins - the skins of 1997 were pathetic)...everything else about my 1997 rocks! (I had skin problems since summer #1 and that is not what I expected when buying the self proclaimed best boat in the world)

BTW... the MC '01-02 had their hull problems too.

And I don't know what it is.. I don't care for the newer MC dash boards either? Personal preference there... Actually, I could make a list of things I don't like about the newer MC's compared to my 1997. The one thing I can't argue with though is the newer 190's would ski and drive better than mine. I'm sure they are superior in that respect.

bxroads
04-13-2009, 07:14 AM
The EVO hull will definitely drive and track better. The most noticable difference (according to my wife) is that the EVO stays more on plane out of the hole and she can see. Believe me, when you're trying to convince the wife to help get some sets in, this cannot be overlooked!

I like the wake on the '97 better but I'm at 30 - 32 mph and 15 off.

flya750
04-13-2009, 12:20 PM
Perish the thought, but I just was wondering if you'd choose to stay with the hull you have or what the choice would be. I agree the changes have not always been for the best. ie 98-00. I was just trying to put some perspective on the conversation. You never did answer the question.;)

The EVO hull will definitely drive and track better. The most noticeable difference (according to my wife) is that the EVO stays more on plane out of the hole and she can see. Believe me, when you're trying to convince the wife to help get some sets in, this cannot be overlooked!

I like the wake on the '97 better but I'm at 30 - 32 mph and 15 off.

Yeah my '97 PS190 definitely has a little bow rise on take off.

Really you like the wake on the '97 better @ 15' ? I severely sprained my ankle @ 22' behind my boat...hitting the bump.. Thank goodness I'm past that line length.

Honestly, since sking the course @ 32' and 35' requires an excellent driver (which I rarely have) and leads to major injuries (which I can't afford) I mostly free ski @ super short line lengths turning and burning safely...@ my leisure. I don't compete..so I'm just out for the fun of it. There is no better exercise IMHO

And when the internal boat weight is down.. skiing 38' - 39' off .. is like skiing across the dining room table... ;) ;) ;) When the internal boat weight is high...there is a bigger hole to ski through @ those short line lengths for sure.