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View Full Version : Big Brother at it again?


Prostar Rich
02-17-2009, 09:04 AM
Anyone in MA catch this?

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-mileage-chip,0,4801761.story

Prostar Rich

scott023
02-17-2009, 09:28 AM
Holy lick... the possiblities for negative repercussions from something like this are endless. Do they know exactly where you've been, or is it simply miles driven? Info that could be obtained by systems like this could be used in divorce proceedings, etc. Seems to me that people are putting enough out of pocket as it is, without something like this. As for paying for roads and infrastructure.... isn't that what taxes are for?

mad-dog1
02-17-2009, 09:48 AM
What taxes???
My state is broke, we have every kind of tax imaginable and now they're becoming more creative ...
Who knows where the taxes go we just can't seem to find these funds....An additional gas tax is in the works in my state...

bigmac
02-17-2009, 09:52 AM
They could know exactly where you've been, but presumably will set up their software to only track mileage. Bear in mind, that anyone who drives a GM vehicle with OnStar can be tracked too, and that's been true for many years. They aren't (so they say), but they could be. And...given a court order I'd bet those states could go back and develope geographic tracks for indivudual users, just as with OnStar. How we feel about that depends on our desire for the ability to track criminals/aid in law enforcement vs our level of paranoia that "The Government" will ultimately be able to misuse the information against us, somehow.

As to taxes, this GPS crap is just a way of separating miles driven from gasoline used. Highway maintenance is generally funded by gasoline tax. You can't drive a car without gasoline, so using gasoline tax is pretty reasonable. Personally, I think this GPS idea is dumb. Maybe Massachusetts plans to unveil a new fuel cell, electric, or nuclear-powered car in the near future and is worried about road maintenance when people stop buying gasoline. Or, more likely, they don't want their highway budgets to suffer as people buy more and more fuel-efficient vehicles.

ski_king
02-17-2009, 09:53 AM
I don't like this idea at all.

I can understand one part, why should I pay as much road tax only driving 12000 miles a year as someone driving 50000 miles/year.

Driving 12000 miles a year at a quarter cent per mile is only $30.00 per year, you cant even pay for the technology at that price.

JohnE
02-17-2009, 09:55 AM
They are looking at all possibilies to raise revenue here in MA. They are talking about doubling tolls, doubling the gas tax (already the highest in the country) etc. All this after they have run it into such a deficit. The BIg Dig was a multi billion dollar debacle. But it kept a lot of people working for a dozen years. Sort of like the housing market......

JohnE
02-17-2009, 09:59 AM
How about this for a novel idea: Read the odometer at the yearly inspection if you need to charge by mileage. Keep it simple......stupid. We have probably the most stringent (except CA) annual inspection process here in MA. Instead of a ridiculuously costly GPS/ computer tracking system.

bigmac
02-17-2009, 10:00 AM
I can understand one part, why should I pay as much road tax only driving 12000 miles a year as someone driving 50000 miles/year.




Maybe Pennsylvania is different, but AFAIK highway maintenance in that state is funded almost entirely by gasoline taxes (32 cents per gallon) and by toll roads....Howdo you figure you're paying the same road tax as the 50,000-milers?

ski_king
02-17-2009, 10:09 AM
Maybe Pennsylvania is different, but AFAIK highway maintenance in that state is funded almost entirely by gasoline taxes (32 cents per gallon) and by toll roads....Howdo you figure you're paying the same road tax as the 50,000-milers?

Good point, PA uses taxs also.
Fuel taxes seem to be the best and most simple method for at least the time being. Once we can run our vehicles on water or air, they may have to come up with another method of measuring how much we use the roads and how much we should pay.

jbfootin
02-17-2009, 10:38 AM
Don't they already get us by putting a road use tax on gas?!?!

TX.X-30 fan
02-17-2009, 10:41 AM
City, county,and state govt's better batten down the hatches this is just the beginning of lower revenues. How stupid are these people after years of chart topping revenues no one has a rainy day fund.

Witness140
02-17-2009, 10:42 AM
Here's some numbers. Right now, the Mass state gas tax is 23.5 cents per gallon.

If I'm driving a car that gets 30 mpg, it cost me .78 cents per mile to drive that vehicle.

If I'm driving a gas guzzling SUV that gets 10mpg, it costs 2.35 cents per mile.

So now.....under this proposal, here's what happens.

Driving my little Honda Civic from Boston to Pittsfield will cost me just as much in road tax as the guy driving the Suburban towing the 197. That's fine - that equalizes the playing field I suppose. A road is a road. Both vehicles cross the same amount of pavement.

Going to a .25 cent per mile road fee would actually be 3 times cheaper than what the Civic currently gets with the gasoline tax! The suburban's haul just got cheaper by a factor of 9.

On the other side of this though......how do you correct the disparity created with interstate transportation and commerce? If I drive from Boston to Pittsfield as an MA resident, will the system become universal nationwide so that the trucker travelling from Bangor to Detroit next to me is also paying the .25 cents per mile?


The country needs a universal nationwide system first that is agreeable to the states. Then each state can figure out the appropriate charges. Having every state running around figuring out their own systems is ludicrous. EZ Pass, Sunpass, bla bla bla. 1 universally agreed system is the way to go. Agree on it, then agree on what to charge for it, and move on.

Considering our former president gave the go-ahead to the NSA to listen to every one of your phone calls sorta minimizes the freshness of the 'big brother' concern.

RexDog1
02-17-2009, 10:54 AM
When the government sees that you are not paying your fair share of taxes because you have high bread, they will do this……………..so get ready and bend over, because this is just the start of the new ways we all are going to be taxed, Change is good!!! Come on guys drink the Kool-Aid and fall into shape!!!!! I am start to think you guys are not Americans ……………….. Stop all your whining, the government knows best for us……………………………………………………………………….:rolleyes:

shepherd
02-17-2009, 11:00 AM
Brilliant idea. I can imagine the hacks on how to cheat the system being developed. And like they said in the article, this will require another Government bureaucracy to manage the whole thing. :noface:

JohnE. Move to Florida. The hurricanes and gators ain't too bad.

bigmac
02-17-2009, 11:01 AM
The country needs a universal nationwide system first that is agreeable to the states. Having every state running around figuring out their own systems is ludicrous. EZ Pass, Sunpass, bla bla bla. 1 universally agreed system is the way to go. Agree on it, then agree on what to charge for it, and move on.



Why? Every state has different needs. Minnesota's highway maintenance needs (given the weather) are different than Florida or Texas. Different terrain, different soil, different volume needs etc etc. No, far more appropriate for each state provide highway maintenance according to its needs IMHO, and fund it in a way that is most useful and appropriate to their state.

As to toll roads, I realize toll roads are common on the east coast, but I'm not aware of a single toll road in the midwestern states. Anyway, that's a less useful concept for states that tend to be more rural.

shepherd
02-17-2009, 11:01 AM
If you owned one of these, would you be exempt from the tax? You wouldn't be using the roads... :rolleyes:

bbymgr
02-17-2009, 11:02 AM
JohnE. Move to Florida. The hurricanes and gators ain't too bad.

It's all the blue haired old ladies that will get you.:D:D

bbymgr
02-17-2009, 11:05 AM
Why? Every state has different needs. Minnesota's highway maintenance needs (given the weather) are different than Florida or Texas. Different terrain, different soil, different volume needs etc etc. No, far more appropriate for each state provide highway maintenance according to its needs IMHO, and fund it in a way that is most useful and appropriate to their state.

As to toll roads, I realize toll roads are common on the east coast, but I'm not aware of a single toll road in the midwestern states. Anyway, that's a less useful concept for states that tend to be more rural.

We have one that goes across the northern border of Indiana, but our "brilliant" governor sold it to a foreign company a couple of years ago.

JohnE
02-17-2009, 11:06 AM
JohnE. Move to Florida. The hurricanes and gators ain't too bad.

But if I can ski every day of the year I'll have no excuses for why I'm such a hack.:D

bigmac
02-17-2009, 11:07 AM
We have one that goes across the northern border of Indiana, but our "brilliant" governor sold it to a foreign company a couple of years ago.
I stand corrected. I tend to think of Indiana as "east coast".:D

bbymgr
02-17-2009, 11:11 AM
I stand corrected. I tend to think of Indiana as "east coast".:D

Don't worry Big Mac......the East Coast doesn't want us either. We're the "red headed step-child" of the US.:D

TX.X-30 fan
02-17-2009, 11:12 AM
Why? Every state has different needs. Minnesota's highway maintenance needs (given the weather) are different than Florida or Texas. Different terrain, different soil, different volume needs etc etc. No, far more appropriate for each state provide highway maintenance according to its needs IMHO, and fund it in a way that is most useful and appropriate to their state.

As to toll roads, I realize toll roads are common on the east coast, but I'm not aware of a single toll road in the midwestern states. Anyway, that's a less useful concept for states that tend to be more rural.



I see that explains why the state with more miles of roads than any other only gets back .62 of every gas dollar tax sent to Washington. :rolleyes:

We already foot more of the bill here for our roads than most other states.

shepherd
02-17-2009, 11:13 AM
It's all the blue haired old ladies that will get you.:D:D

Those Snowbirds can be pretty dangerous!

But if I can ski every day of the year I'll have no excuses for why I'm such a hack.:D

I blame old age. :cool:

Prostar Rich
02-17-2009, 11:19 AM
We have one that goes across the northern border of Indiana, but our "brilliant" governor sold it to a foreign company a couple of years ago.


Plenty of toll roads in IL as well.

Prostar Rich

bigmac
02-17-2009, 11:48 AM
OK, OK, by midwest, I mean Minnesota, Iowa and Nebraska.

And toll bridges don't count.

trickskier
02-17-2009, 11:55 AM
City, county,and state govt's better batten down the hatches this is just the beginning of lower revenues. How stupid are these people after years of chart topping revenues no one has a rainy day fund.

We only have ourselves to blame...................We elected them!!!

wakeX2wake
02-17-2009, 11:59 AM
We only have ourselves to blame...................We elected them!!!

tricky called... he said its time for a gut check

Patrick Hardy
02-17-2009, 02:23 PM
Here is one example of where "Big brother Watching" is great, unbelievable and scary all at the same time. Lets hope it pays off soon - dead or alive.

www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2009-02-17-osama-geography_N.htm?se=yahoorefer

ski_king
02-17-2009, 02:30 PM
As far as having the possibility of big brother watching, remember we all carry cell phones that have 911 GPS built into them. While we think we have the GPS Location turned off, but do we really........
I know I can turn on a feature for a few extra $$ to let me know where my kids are (or at least their phones).

Prostar Rich
02-20-2009, 09:54 AM
Now the Feds want to get in on this.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29298315

Prostar Rich

shepherd
02-20-2009, 10:35 AM
Now the Feds want to get in on this.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29298315

Prostar Rich

"Other motorists say it eliminates an incentive to drive more fuel-efficient cars since gas guzzlers will be taxed at the same rate as fuel sippers."

I drive a gas guzzler. Maybe I'll come out ahead on this deal. :)

92 190 PS
02-20-2009, 10:47 AM
Did you guys see this one. Classic and I give him an AMEN....

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=1039849853

bbymgr
02-20-2009, 10:58 AM
"Other motorists say it eliminates an incentive to drive more fuel-efficient cars since gas guzzlers will be taxed at the same rate as fuel sippers."

I drive a gas guzzler. Maybe I'll come out ahead on this deal. :)


Maybe that is one of the desired effects????? That way it would shift some of the new car purchases back to the 'Big 3".

wakeX2wake
02-20-2009, 11:03 AM
i'm sorry... if this goes through this is one of the dumbest most unfair tax systems i've ever seen... and if it does start to go through the American people should remove every elected official from office who votes yes on this deal... this is ridiculous... this country was founded b/c of unreasonable and unfair taxation

JimN
02-20-2009, 11:52 AM
Unfortunately, it would be pretty easy to do this without GPS. RFID is how I-Pass works and unless the transponder is well hidden and inaccessible, it'll still work for their diabolical plan.

Whose idea was this, Barney Frank- the "Toothless Wonder"?

shepherd
02-20-2009, 11:57 AM
Unfortunately, it would be pretty easy to do this without GPS. RFID is how I-Pass works and unless the transponder is well hidden and inaccessible, it'll still work for their diabolical plan.

It should be pretty easy to shield the transponder so it doesn't register, like covering it with lead foil or something. Like I said - easy cheats will probably be available.

funk
02-20-2009, 12:33 PM
Interesting comparison with our current situation!

shepherd
02-20-2009, 06:48 PM
He should still fire the guy for even suggesting it.

Obama nixes plan to tax motorists on mileage


Feb 20, 6:15 PM (ET)
By JOAN LOWY


WASHINGTON (AP) - President Barack Obama will not adopt a policy to tax motorists based on how many miles they drive instead of how much gasoline they buy, his chief spokesman said Friday. Press secretary Robert Gibbs commented after Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood told The Associated Press that he wants to consider the idea, which has been proposed in some states but has angered many drivers.

"It is not and will not be the policy of the Obama administration," Gibbs told reporters, when asked for the president's thoughts about the policy and LaHood's remarks.

JimN
02-20-2009, 07:26 PM
It should be pretty easy to shield the transponder so it doesn't register, like covering it with lead foil or something. Like I said - easy cheats will probably be available.

Must have ignored "and unless the transponder is well hidden and inaccessible", eh? They would make it illegal to alter the system, which wouldn't bother them, because they're trying to save us from ourselves, but those of us who care will be seriously PO'd. The sheeple have spoken and unless we do something about it, it's going to get worse every day.

shepherd
02-20-2009, 07:45 PM
Yes, I did ignore it because I didn't know what the hell you meant by it. Maybe you meant "if" (rather than "unless") the transponder was inaccessible it would prevent cheating? :confused:
But, thankfully, you and I and most of the other citizens are against this dumb plan. So cheers. :toast:

JimN
02-20-2009, 07:50 PM
Yes, I did ignore it because I didn't know what the hell you meant by it. Maybe you meant "if" (rather than "unless") the transponder was inaccessible it would prevent cheating? :confused:
But, thankfully, you and I and most of the other citizens are against this dumb plan. So cheers. :toast:

I meant unless. If it's easy to get to, people will defeat it but if it's hard to get to and hard to defeat, some other means would be needed, like RF transmitters that jam it, like a RADAR jammer. They would make it just as illegal but it wouldn't keep people from doing it.

I sure would hate to see that the nimrod who came up with this plan was run over and a fiver was stuffed in his pocket. Someone needs to beat the fact into him that we're paying enough taxes on driving.

shepherd
02-20-2009, 07:54 PM
Sorry I misunderstood your post.

I like the jammer idea. Maybe we can disguise it as an iPod.

TMCNo1
02-20-2009, 07:58 PM
This may be good news,

Obama nixes plan to tax motorists on mileage (AP) (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/rss/topstories/*http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090221/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/lahood_vehicle_mileage_tax)

AP - President Barack Obama on Friday rejected his transportation secretary's suggestion that the administration consider taxing motorists based on how many miles they drive instead of how much gasoline they buy. "It is not and will not be the policy of the Obama administration," White House press secretary Robert Gibbs told reporters, when asked for the president's thoughts about Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood's suggestion, raised in an interview with The Associated Press a daily earlier.

03 35th Anniversary
02-20-2009, 08:00 PM
This may be good news,

Obama nixes plan to tax motorists on mileage (AP) (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/rss/topstories/*http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090221/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/lahood_vehicle_mileage_tax)

AP - President Barack Obama on Friday rejected his transportation secretary's suggestion that the administration consider taxing motorists based on how many miles they drive instead of how much gasoline they buy. "It is not and will not be the policy of the Obama administration," White House press secretary Robert Gibbs told reporters, when asked for the president's thoughts about Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood's suggestion, raised in an interview with The Associated Press a daily earlier.

I just want to know, how were they gonna keep track of how many miles someone drove each year?

TMCNo1
02-20-2009, 08:06 PM
I just want to know, how were they gonna keep track of how many miles someone drove each year?

With a little stick and measuring wheel off the back bumper!:D

JimN
02-20-2009, 10:21 PM
I just want to know, how were they gonna keep track of how many miles someone drove each year?

Well, if someone deducts for mileage on their tax return, that's one way. As it is, if a person owns a business or income property and uses one vehicle for business and personal, they're supposed to declare how many miles driven for each. They could also make a car's ECM store mileage and collect the data when a car goes in for emissionsand even though that's not a universal requirement now, it may be in the future.

bigmac
02-21-2009, 11:30 AM
Yes, it's a Brave New World we're heading toward. Ever see the movie Minority Report (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_Report_(film))?

Look at this...

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/tech/2009/02/20/joyce.mo.ads.with.cameras.ksdk

And if you REALLY want to worry about Big Brother...be concerned about Google.




/

JimN
02-21-2009, 11:50 AM
The Thought Police are out there! They know what you're thinking, man! Don't let them get into your head!

TX.X-30 fan
02-21-2009, 05:45 PM
Yes, it's a Brave New World we're heading toward. Ever see the movie Minority Report (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_Report_(film))?

Look at this...

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/tech/2009/02/20/joyce.mo.ads.with.cameras.ksdk

And if you REALLY want to worry about Big Brother...be concerned about Google.




/



Just keep the pace slow enough so I never have to see the finish line.

JimN
02-21-2009, 06:15 PM
Anyone else want a tin foil hat, while I'm making mine?

TMCNo1
02-21-2009, 06:49 PM
Anyone else want a tin foil hat, while I'm making mine?

Like this?http://zapatopi.net/afdb/testimonials.html (http://zapatopi.net/afdb/testimonials.html)
This site is a hoot!

TX.X-30 fan
02-21-2009, 06:56 PM
Anyone else want a tin foil hat, while I'm making mine?




Yes a milano please with the "hand" crease. :D

JimN
02-21-2009, 08:01 PM
I was thinking more like the aluminum top hat a fan tossed to Joe Walsh at Milwaukee County Stadium when The Eagles were on their Hotel California tour.

TX.X-30 fan
02-21-2009, 09:12 PM
i LIKE THAT.

JimN
02-21-2009, 11:28 PM
I drove past the stadium on the way back from Florida while they were playing and I could see him wearing the hat from the freeway. I couldn't really tell what it was until I saw the news on TV that night.