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View Full Version : Hard Freeze protection?


CantRepeat
11-20-2008, 10:45 AM
Well, as most of you know, the winter has finally reach down south and we got really cold the last two nights. I believe it was at 22 at one point.

About 3 years ago we had another hard freeze in which one of the freeze plugs came out of the block of my 351w. I had drained the block, mainfolds, and pulled the impeller all after I ran the boat for about 10 seconds after pulling out.

So for the last couple of years I've been mixing up a 50/50 anitfreeze/water and putting that in the boat via the water intake. Once i've completed that, I pull the impeller and change the oil for storage.

I was just wondering what other people with open systems in "colder" climates do.

Gonzo
11-20-2008, 11:08 AM
you did more then I did, all I did was drain it turn it over a time or two, drove it around up and down hills, pulled hoses off ot make sure the water was out then buttoned it up, put the plugs in a bag with the keys and changed the oil. Done. No Anti Freeze here.

ttu
11-20-2008, 11:09 AM
you did more then I did, all I did was drain it turn it over a time or two, drove it around up and down hills, pulled hoses off ot make sure the water was out then buttoned it up, put the plugs in a bag with the keys and changed the oil. Done. No Anti Freeze here.

same here, have never used antifreeze in the engine. i did use antifreeze in the ballast pumps.

Skipper
11-20-2008, 11:24 AM
Hard freeze in Clarksville, TN? I actually got snowed in at my house in Sango, TN a few years back.

After I run anti-freeze through the engine. I drain all of the water lines, tranny cooler, and water strainer as well. I also open up the engine drains (one plug and a knock sensor on the other side). I drain the exhaust manifolds. Pretty much any place that can hold water is drained and what doesn't drain out is anti-freeze.

LachNess
11-20-2008, 11:42 AM
Hey. I actually just posted this on another thread:

I just winterized mine yesterday (Ah, a sad day pulling the boat out for the winter...) Anyway, I don't pull any plugs, I have fashioned a three gallon pail with a tub drain in it. I simply connect this to the water inlet hose in the bottom of the hull, add propylene glycol AF and run the engine until the AF runs from the exhaust. It takes about four gallons total. Done. One hose clamp. I have done this successfully for years, and feel like it beats bilge diving to remove a bunch of plugs. It's simple and eliminates the risk of missing a plug or not getting them all reinstalled.
It literally takes about 3 minutes.

I also fogged the carb this year for the first time. It can't hurt...

With a drip pan I can recover the vast majority of AF when I first start it in the spring too!

bigmac
11-20-2008, 12:34 PM
For decades on my boats, all I've ever done is drain the engine etc of water. When I got this MasterCraft, I started refilling with propylene glycol after draining, mainly for corrosion protection and to keep the impeller from drying out. This year, I took it to the dealer where they fill the entire system with -100 propylene glycol. In the spring then it's just a matter of putting the boat in the water and turning the key.

I would never use ethylene glycol in a boat unless I were confident that NONE of it would get into the lake or my yard.

CantRepeat
11-20-2008, 03:05 PM
For decades on my boats, all I've ever done is drain the engine etc of water. When I got this MasterCraft, I started refilling with propylene glycol after draining, mainly for corrosion protection and to keep the impeller from drying out. This year, I took it to the dealer where they fill the entire system with -100 propylene glycol. In the spring then it's just a matter of putting the boat in the water and turning the key.

I would never use ethylene glycol in a boat unless I were confident that NONE of it would get into the lake or my yard.

I would assume most companys make a propylene glycol. I'll have to look at what I bought.

I used to only drain the water from the engine. Here in Alabama we don't normally get that cold. But after the one cold winter and I pushed a freeze plug out I figured I couldn't go wrong with a little safety net.

NeilM
11-20-2008, 03:33 PM
It gets cold here -- we usually expect a couple weeks of minus 40. (That's what I call a 'hard freeze':(). The MariStar sits outside.

I drain everything per the manual, and use -50 plumbing antifreeze in the ballast system and heater core. No antifreeze in the engine. All of the plugs and hose clamps go in a ziplock bag, waiting for next summer.

It's worked for me

bigmac
11-20-2008, 04:48 PM
I would assume most companys make a propylene glycol. I'll have to look at what I bought.

Actually, no...most companies don't.

Most of the propylene glycols are not diluted. There are the RV antifreezes in -50, -65, -100 versions from West Marine. There is also Sierra antifreeze which you could probably pick up at most auto parts stores. You can pick up RV antifreeze at most RV dealers and many hardware stores.

Non-toxic antifreeze at West Marine (http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/SiteSearchView?catalogId=10001&Ntx=mode%2Bmatchallpartial&keyword=antifreeze&Ntt=antifreeze&N=0&storeId=10001&Ntk=All_2&ddkey=SiteSearch)

LachNess
11-20-2008, 07:34 PM
You can get it at wally world...

CantRepeat
11-21-2008, 08:11 AM
Actually, no...most companies don't.

Most of the propylene glycols are not diluted. There are the RV antifreezes in -50, -65, -100 versions from West Marine. There is also Sierra antifreeze which you could probably pick up at most auto parts stores. You can pick up RV antifreeze at most RV dealers and many hardware stores.

Non-toxic antifreeze at West Marine (http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/SiteSearchView?catalogId=10001&Ntx=mode%2Bmatchallpartial&keyword=antifreeze&Ntt=antifreeze&N=0&storeId=10001&Ntk=All_2&ddkey=SiteSearch)

If I can get it at most auto parts stores and walmart then I'm sure most manufactures produce it.

TRBenj
11-21-2008, 03:07 PM
Hey. I actually just posted this on another thread:

I just winterized mine yesterday (Ah, a sad day pulling the boat out for the winter...) Anyway, I don't pull any plugs, I have fashioned a three gallon pail with a tub drain in it. I simply connect this to the water inlet hose in the bottom of the hull, add propylene glycol AF and run the engine until the AF runs from the exhaust. It takes about four gallons total. Done. One hose clamp. I have done this successfully for years, and feel like it beats bilge diving to remove a bunch of plugs. It's simple and eliminates the risk of missing a plug or not getting them all reinstalled.
It literally takes about 3 minutes.

I also fogged the carb this year for the first time. It can't hurt...

With a drip pan I can recover the vast majority of AF when I first start it in the spring too!
FYI, this is a TERRIBLE procedure to recommend to others! You have been very lucky that you have not cracked your block.

Regardless of how you fill the block with antifreeze (I prefer the pour-in method per the PCM manual), you should ALWAYS drain the water out first... ESPECIALLY when you refill with propylene (marine/RV) antifreeze, as it is not supposed to be diluted. There is no way to confirm that ANY antifreeze made it into the block at all, as it could simply exit right out the exhaust without circulating, depending on whether the thermostat is open or closed.

Antifreeze will always enter the block when it is empty (the t-stat controls flow OUT of the block, not IN). There is simply no way to ensure adequate freeze protection without draining the block.

In short, dont be lazy, and dont spread bad info!

Gonzo
11-21-2008, 03:19 PM
FYI, this is a TERRIBLE procedure to recommend to others! You have been very lucky that you have not cracked your block.

Regardless of how you fill the block with antifreeze (I prefer the pour-in method per the PCM manual), you should ALWAYS drain the water out first... ESPECIALLY when you refill with propylene (marine/RV) antifreeze, as it is not supposed to be diluted. There is no way to confirm that ANY antifreeze made it into the block at all, as it could simply exit right out the exhaust without circulating, depending on whether the thermostat is open or closed.

Antifreeze will always enter the block when it is empty (the t-stat controls flow OUT of the block, not IN). There is simply no way to ensure adequate freeze protection without draining the block.

In short, dont be lazy, and dont spread bad info!


Im not sure Nesse knew it was bad info, they only have 46 posts here I think he was just trying to help.

Skipper
11-21-2008, 11:04 PM
Another good thing about draining all of the lines, block, and risers, is to flush out deposits and corrosion.

PacMan89
11-23-2008, 03:32 AM
Yeah this is my first year winterizing, and well when I poured my rv antifreeze in the block I made an oops. I didnt realize (didnt think about it being 18 I know the world) I left the boat tilted back. 3 gallons of anitreeze on the drive way. I just couldnt get it to fill up.:uglyhamme:uglyhamme

Jesus_Freak
11-25-2008, 01:17 PM
There is no way to confirm that ANY antifreeze made it into the block at all, as it could simply exit right out the exhaust without circulating, depending on whether the thermostat is open or closed.

Absolutely! Liquid flows through the engine are not perfectly swept from inlet to exhaust. Without doing a tracer test (dye, titration, etc.), there is no way of knowing what fraction has been diluted. For estimates on how long it would take to reach x dilution, feel free to PM me.

Mag_Red
11-25-2008, 01:30 PM
FYI, this is a TERRIBLE procedure to recommend to others! You have been very lucky that you have not cracked your block.

Regardless of how you fill the block with antifreeze (I prefer the pour-in method per the PCM manual), you should ALWAYS drain the water out first... ESPECIALLY when you refill with propylene (marine/RV) antifreeze, as it is not supposed to be diluted. There is no way to confirm that ANY antifreeze made it into the block at all, as it could simply exit right out the exhaust without circulating, depending on whether the thermostat is open or closed.

Antifreeze will always enter the block when it is empty (the t-stat controls flow OUT of the block, not IN). There is simply no way to ensure adequate freeze protection without draining the block.

In short, dont be lazy, and dont spread bad info!is this actually true????? Looks to me that if the thermostat is closed the water would stop at the thermostat inlet and simply flow to the exhaust manifold and transmission cooler, then out the back of the boat until the thermostat opens:confused:

Skipper
11-25-2008, 03:31 PM
The difference is that if you do not pour anti-freeze directly into your block, but suck it into the engine instead, that:

o if you first drain the block - then some anti-freeze will get into the block and yes, stop at the thermostat

o if you do not first drain the block - then, there is no way to be sure anti-freeze is getting into the block and not just spilling out the exhaust.

I am sure if my friend Wayne were to conduct some scientific tests of all three techniques, that he would get the following results (minus the actual numbers)

o filling the block directly - the most antifreeze ratio in the block
o draining the block, then sucking up antifreeze - the second most antifreeze ratio in the block
o not draining first, then sucking up antifreeze - the smallest antifreeze ratio in the block

Mag_Red
11-25-2008, 03:48 PM
I was just curious as I couldn't get my engine past 150 degress on the fake a lake. :( If what you said is true, then why bother getting the engine up to operating temp before adding the anti-freeze??? Why not just pull the two drain plugs on the block, drain the water, re-install, then suck the anti-freeze up.:confused:

Skipper
11-25-2008, 03:58 PM
I figure winterizing is like lots of things that folks all have different opinions. Benj pointed out that the PCM manual called for pouring the anti-freeze directly into the block. I imagine that is how the manufacturer says to do it, good advice.

But other folks have come up with techniques that work for them, ie. sucking the anti-freeze out of a bucket when the engine is warm.

I think the take-away from this one is that it might be of benefit to drain the block before sucking the anti-freeze out of a bucket (or pouring it directly into the block, for that matter).

Mag_Red
11-25-2008, 04:13 PM
man I wish someone would weigh in on this drain the block issue............just last week-end I ran the boat on the fake-a-lake for a good 15-20 minutes. Even ran the rpm's up for a while. The temp guage never got quite to 160. Shut her down, then sucked anti-freeze from a bucket till it ran out the exhaust. After I was done I pulled the one plug on the block.........water runs out. So I opened the other drain..same thing. Opened an exhaust drain, got anti-freeze. Left the block drains open, and shoved her into the garage:rolleyes:

mcdoon
11-25-2008, 04:24 PM
Mag--Now I'm worried. I did the same thing as you. Engine never got past about 158 degrees. Sounds like I need to pull it back out of storage and try a few more techniques. :confused:

Mag_Red
11-25-2008, 04:28 PM
Mag--Now I'm worried. I did the same thing as you. Engine never got past about 158 degrees. Sounds like I need to pull it back out of storage and try a few more techniques. :confused:I would just pull the block drains and leave them open:twocents: Next year I think I will just take the thermostat out and run it.

Skipper
11-26-2008, 08:52 AM
I would just pull the block drains and leave them open:twocents: Next year I think I will just take the thermostat out and run it.

If you are gonna pull the t-stat, then...why not drain the block first, putt the t-stat and pour antifreeze into the block?

TRBenj
11-26-2008, 09:06 AM
is this actually true????? Looks to me that if the thermostat is closed the water would stop at the thermostat inlet and simply flow to the exhaust manifold and transmission cooler, then out the back of the boat until the thermostat opens:confused:
Its 100% true for the PCM Fords. Ive filled my block (after draining of course) both hot and cold and always get 3 gallons of antifreeze in. Not sure about other cooling systems.

Regardless, its always a good practice to drain the water out before adding antifreeze. Thats the only way to ensure a proper mixture.

Im betting that your manual recommends draining the block, correct?


FYI, I dont see the need to pull the 'stat out regardless. On my non-PCM's Ive filled the block by pouring a/f into the large hose running to the circ pump.

mcdoon
11-26-2008, 09:35 AM
I would just pull the block drains and leave them open:twocents: Next year I think I will just take the thermostat out and run it.

I'm heading over to the storage unit this weekend. I'm going to pull the thermostat out and repeat the whole procedure. If I pull the block plugs and see antifreeze I'm going to assume I'm good for the winter. If not I'll be pulling it home and putting it in warm storage.

east tx skier
11-26-2008, 10:12 AM
Its 100% true for the PCM Fords. Ive filled my block (after draining of course) both hot and cold and always get 3 gallons of antifreeze in. Not sure about other cooling systems.

Regardless, its always a good practice to drain the water out before adding antifreeze. Thats the only way to ensure a proper mixture.

Im betting that your manual recommends draining the block, correct?


FYI, I dont see the need to pull the 'stat out regardless. On my non-PCM's Ive filled the block by pouring a/f into the large hose running to the circ pump.

That's the way I did it, too. Always just drained the MC, but like Big Mac, decided to go with RV antifreeze for the corrosion protection. Drained. Plugged. Filled with a funnel in the hose raised as high as possible above the T-stat.

Tim, I know you and others apparently get 3 gallons in there, but I just barely got 2. I talked to my local dealer and the service manager told me they usually only get about 1.5 gallons or so in there. How are you guys getting 3?

Gonzo
11-26-2008, 12:34 PM
can somone find pictures of the indmar and describe to me where the thermostat and the proper hose to pour in are, you guys have got me scarde I havent done enough. When someone is using antifreeze in tx and I am not here I gotta wonder...

bigmac
11-26-2008, 01:04 PM
Here's what I think...

But I don't know if these Indmars actually have "backpressure valve", or if they rely entirely on the little bypass hole in the thermostat housing.

http://mccollister.info/cooling diagram.jpg

mcdoon
11-28-2008, 02:26 PM
I would just pull the block drains and leave them open:twocents: Next year I think I will just take the thermostat out and run it.

Just got back from the storage unit. I owe someone on here a case of their favorite brew because I would have most likely been out some serious cash from a cracked block come springtime.

I followed what I thought was a solid procedure for getting antifreeze throughout the block: warm the engine for 20 minutes on fresh water and then suck up 6 gallons of nothing but -50 antifreeze. Well, I opened the engine plugs today to find nothnig but clear water running out. The manifolds had solid antifreeze, but it appears my thermostat never opened to let the AF flow to my engine block -- even after 20 minutes of running time.

So I pulled the thermostat and just poured the antifreeze into the block. It took 2-3/4 gallons. I split the remaining 1-1/4 gallons into the hoses coming off the thermostat housing leading to the manifolds. Total job took about 1-1/2 hours.

That's a load off my mind. Thanks Mag and Eastie. I'm heading to the store. PM me with your beer order.

http://www.easttxskier.com/winterization.html

craig3972
11-28-2008, 03:10 PM
i have an 06 MCX. This year i didnt warm up the engine, but i took out the knock sensors on either side of the block, disconnected the garden hose type coupling between the exhaust manifolds and let it drain. I also disconnected one of the hoses to the heater and blew all the water out.

Then i reconnected and plugged everything. I used a fake a lake connected to a bucket filled with 5 gallons of RV antifreeze. I started and ran the engine untill all the antifreeze had been drawn into the engine ( about 2 -3 min.) antifreeze was coming out the exhaust. I also ran the shower untill only antfreeze was coming out.

Question: Normally i warm up the engine - this year i didnt. Will any water be trapped in the motor above the thermostat?

mitch
11-28-2008, 03:42 PM
I've never used anti-freeze in either or my MC's, or any of my boats. Never had a problem......just drain em like the manual says

JohnE
11-29-2008, 09:31 PM
i have an 06 MCX. This year i didnt warm up the engine, but i took out the knock sensors on either side of the block, disconnected the garden hose type coupling between the exhaust manifolds and let it drain. I also disconnected one of the hoses to the heater and blew all the water out.

Then i reconnected and plugged everything. I used a fake a lake connected to a bucket filled with 5 gallons of RV antifreeze. I started and ran the engine untill all the antifreeze had been drawn into the engine ( about 2 -3 min.) antifreeze was coming out the exhaust. I also ran the shower untill only antfreeze was coming out.

Question: Normally i warm up the engine - this year i didnt. Will any water be trapped in the motor above the thermostat?


Just draining the engine as you did should be good enough. The antifreeze is a bonus. You might try filling the anti freeze through the J-hose next year. It doesn't get much easier than that.

JohnnyB
11-30-2008, 10:33 AM
My procedure has always been:

-Warm the engine to temp (fake a lake)
-shutdown
-change oil
-change tranny fluid
-restart and run to temp
-drain completely (block drain, knock sensor, tranny cooler, exhaust risers, water pump u-hose)
- close all drains
- connect bucket of RV antifreeze to intake
- run, turn on shower, shut-down when antifreeze is gone
- redrain, make sure you see pink coming out of every drain
- with the hoses and drain plugs open, spin engine with starter (w/ deadman switch removed)

- blow out heater core with compressed air

All of the drain plugs and impeller go in a zip loc that gets zip tied loosely to the steering wheel

TRBenj
11-30-2008, 12:17 PM
- redrain, make sure you see pink coming out of every drain

Ive gotta ask- why would you do this? Draining is good enough, but antifreeze should offer some corrosion protection. Why fill and redrain? Seems like a waste to me.:confused:

T Scott
11-30-2008, 12:31 PM
Guys.....Just move to Florida....no need to worry about a freezing block!

JohnnyB
11-30-2008, 01:52 PM
Ive gotta ask- why would you do this? Draining is good enough, but antifreeze should offer some corrosion protection. Why fill and redrain? Seems like a waste to me.:confused:

Good point. Our lows have gotten to -35deg F in a cold winter, but typically not lower. I could pickle it (leave it in) and hope I haven't diluted the mix enough to cause problems, or I could spend $14/gal for -100F RV antifreeze instead of $2/gal for -50F RV antifreeze to be sure, or I could drain it to be safe.

I think next year I'll spring for the -100F RV antifreeze and pickle it. :cool:

JohnnyB
11-30-2008, 01:53 PM
Guys.....Just move to Florida....no need to worry about a freezing block!

I was waiting for that suggestion.

I'm guessing your snowmobiling and pheasant hunting aren't all that great in FL.....

illholla
12-04-2008, 08:34 PM
lol it probley aint

TMCNo1
12-04-2008, 09:04 PM
I was waiting for that suggestion.

I'm guessing your snowmobiling and pheasant hunting aren't all that great in FL.....

Probably cause they have a lot of food fights instead, http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showpost.php?p=561336&postcount=53

snakeoil
12-04-2008, 09:35 PM
I was waiting for that suggestion.

I'm guessing your snowmobiling and pheasant hunting aren't all that great in FL.....




Looks like we can board this weekend. Got birds just down the road, and exotics if need be plus all the whitetail one would ever need for dinner.


Hard to justify living in the northeast for sure. Please keep trying with all the snow waverunnering. Smiley face!!