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Jim@BAWS
11-17-2008, 04:50 PM
Please fill out the SURVEY as all of us could be greatly affected by this. If all 3 automakers are held to a loan guarntee and not a BAIL OUT this plan will work. It has to !!!
Republican or DEMOCRAT is does not matter. They all need to get PAYROLL spending under control. Help get it done. Fill out the CUSTOMER part on the right edge and watch the small movie

http://gmfactsandfiction.com


All of us MC Owners are GM USERS since 1995 so fill it out now

Jim@BAWS

x-10ron
11-17-2008, 05:03 PM
13 million jobs at stake. well worth the bail out. I rather the big 3 get the money than the rich ceo's/crooks of these investment banks.

ProTour X9
11-17-2008, 05:24 PM
I do too:
http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/Chuck_Norris_Approves.gif (http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=2319)

TX.X-30 fan
11-17-2008, 07:04 PM
Its a bailout of the UAW, and that kind of money won't last them 6mo. the way they are bleeding now. The unions have to be broken or nothing will help. GM's labor costs are nearly 2x's that of toyota, so how will money help this situation.

woftam
11-17-2008, 08:54 PM
Actually, this MC owner will be more worried if Yamaha goes under (BF 200). From 1995 on there were a few MC's with Yamahas/Mercs (1996 BF 200's and later Powerstar 200's). But that's trivia (except to the MC outboard owners). Your point that most post 1995 MC's are chevy powered is well taken.

Loan guarantee or bailout, it amounts to the same if there is a (likely) default. As a taxpayer, I don't see where a bailout will solve the problem, it just delays the inevitable failure of the company(s) due to an unsustainable business model and assorted instances of corruption, shortsighted greed and stupidity. The 700 billion (quoted-think in excess of a trillion actual) to prop up the investment bank fiasco has predicably not done the job and there have been notable instances of corruption, short sighted greed, and stupidity associated with that program already.

No matter what happens, it is going to hurt/be difficult for a great many people and some corrupt a%&holes will profit from the mess. Given that position, I'd rather the market sorts itself out rather than the innocent masses taking an additional hit to prop up industries not worth their weight. I see it more as an opportunity to streamline and an incentive toward employee owners similar to the SW Air model. (which major airline returned to profit first, post 9/11?)

Whatever it's called/badged, the technology will still be there when all is sorted. Nice engines, but it's not as if they are cutting edge and parts can't be reproduced. FWIW.

Chicago190
11-17-2008, 08:55 PM
GM shouldn't be bailed out. The writing has been on the wall since the gas shortages of the 1970s that big, gas guzzling cars were not the future. GM allowed the UAW to push them around when gas prices were low and profits were high in the late 90s, early 2000s, when SUVs and other fuel inefficient vehicles were popular. GM is the largest automaker in the world, and instead of leading the way in fuel efficient car they have fallen so far behind that they cannot catch up. They probably spent billions of dollars developing E85 flex fuel vehicles, too bad ethanol as it is currently produced would not come close to sustaining Americas demand for driving.

GM has too many dealerships, too many brands, and legacy costs that have doomed them for the last 3 years. They should file for Ch. 11 protection, and if done properly they will reemerge as a viable, competitive company. If the government bails them out they will just be throwing good money after bad, and if you believe any differently then you are either a. a fool or b. turning a blind eye to the reality of auto manufacturing in the U.S.

Why Ch. 11 is the way to go: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122688631448632421.html

j2nh
11-17-2008, 09:02 PM
The other side of the coin.
Total Compensation Per Hour, 2007-2008 (includes wages and all benefits US):
Big Three automakers — $73.08
Toyota — $48.00
All workers — $28.48
Source: http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2008/11/50b-bailout-would-only-be-down-payment.html


UAW needs to step up to the plate just like they are asking the taxpayers, shareholders, and auto executives to do and give a little. How about all big 3 employees (union/mgt) take a 10% cut until they turn the "loan" gets paid back?

Normally when a business borrows money they have a business plan that forecasts profitability, how about sharing that with your bankers (taxpayers). I disagree with the notion that this event has been precipitated by the recent credit disaster, talk of GM insolvency go back to 2005.

If that isn't bad enough look at current inventory levels:
http://seekingalpha.com/article/106228-the-biggest-problem-detroit-s-big-three-face

The US needs to get its priorities squared away and start manufacturing goods, I am just not sure the current big 3 are examples of the direction the country should be headed in.

kev88
11-17-2008, 09:05 PM
There is a Delphi plant in my area. When you have employees (I know several) on the payroll drawing 60% of their salary that haven't worked an hour 3 years........you're kind of asking for it.

mattsn
11-17-2008, 09:16 PM
The first part of the movie states, "Despite restructuring, greatly improved quality..." What a joke. When did they restructure the management bonus? I have a friend who is management at the Indiana truck plant. He pleads this story every day. What he fails to mention is that he has had 20 years of high salary, a yearly 3 figure BONUS, great insurance, and a new car and gas every 6 months!!! And I should feel bad? These folks blew it all when times were great, instead of going to the bank and living like no one else, and now want me to provide their salary.

Bailout is only going to pay off stupid contacts for employees.

Quality control? One only needs to read this board to see that is not improved.

GM needs to go down so they will be forced to restructure and learn from Honda and Toyota how to build quality cars that the customer wants at a good price.

If they are "bailed out" now, it will only be 6-8 months and they will then be back to the trough asking for more.

Chicago190
11-17-2008, 09:32 PM
There is a Delphi plant in my area. When you have employees (I know several) on the payroll drawing 60% of their salary that haven't worked an hour 3 years........you're kind of asking for it.

GM is famous for having the "jobs bank". Name one other industry where you can have 10,000+ idle workers receiving a large chunk of their salary, benefits, and accruing years toward retirement. Say what you want about Wall St. and their irresponsibility, but at least the struggling banks are making the cuts necessary to be profitable in the future (i.e. Citibank announcing 50k layoffs today). GM and UAW just wants to pin this on the tax payer by talking about the impending doom from having to file bankruptcy because they want to continue operations as an unprofitable, uncompetitive entity that pays its employees unrealistically high wages and promises unrealistic benefits.

vision
11-17-2008, 09:42 PM
I have to agree with the previous posts. Bailing out a company that had an unsustainable and dated business plan is not smart. I would prefer to see the money spent to help retrain the folks facing unemployment and help them find jobs in other sectors than spend it trying to place a band aid on a broken leg.

This recession is nothing that has not happened every 10 years for the last 5 decades. Proper management means you have a financial plan in place for these times. Blaming the credit crisis is simply diverting attention away from the underlying problem.

x-10ron
11-18-2008, 09:25 AM
How can we bail out the investment banks and let our auto commpany's die. They provide a service, they provide cars based of the demand. Is it there fault for falling behind the jap's, YES
Is it there fault allowing the UAW to run the show, YES. 13 MILLON jobs at stake. 300k in the auto workers, that's 12.7 millon insurance providers, small business owners, restaurants workers, local fire/police dept, city job's, home builder, teachers, doctors. Every job field will be effected, Where in the world can the usa find 13 millon jobs for these poeple that are going to be effected.
But lets give the money to the banks/ super rich ceo's. I'm outraged, I agree they need to be rock solid and need and new plan and more competative, but at what cost. Loan the money or we will all feel the effects of doing nothing. Give them 100 billon if thats what it takes, force the UAW to make consession. We can send money over sea to rebuild Iraq but we can spend our own money to save 13 millon job!!!!!!!

j2nh
11-18-2008, 10:46 AM
But lets give the money to the banks/ super rich ceo's. I'm outraged, I agree they need to be rock solid and need and new plan and more competative, but at what cost. Loan the money or we will all feel the effects of doing nothing. Give them 100 billon if thats what it takes, force the UAW to make consession. We can send money over sea to rebuild Iraq but we can spend our own money to save 13 millon job!!!!!!!

Everybody should be outraged. Some of the allegedly smartest people in the financial world screwed the American Taxpayer to the wall. Some of those people need to go to jail.
Big Three:
Here's the rub. You just played out the perfect scenario. Taxpayers make a loan to the big three and that gives them sufficient time to get their respective houses in order. Except that is not real. What is real is that the bill laid out in the Senate on Monday has everything EXCEPT any sort of concession from the UAW. These are THEIR jobs and if they are unwilling to make any sort of sacrifice to save THEIR jobs why should we?

fletch_n_me
11-18-2008, 11:06 AM
Having worked in the airline industry, I have had my pay cut by 20% at one time - it was what we had to do to ensure the survival of our company. I wanted to strangle Ron Gettelfinger, the UAW head, when he basically they would make no concessions. Essentially, you have to cut off the finger to save the hand in this case.

I have no sympathy for UAW. They are totally superfluous with the governmental controls we have in place. It has been their outlandish demands and ever increasing pressure that has led to lower quality, increased prices and very little consumer confidence. For some reason, people who work spot welders think they should get $60 per hour...I would leave my freaking office right now if that was the going rate.

I tried to buy American, I really did. I drove the Caddy CTS against a BMW 5 series - around the same price and it was NOT EVEN CLOSE.

For the record - Toyota is now the world's largest automaker.

http://www.forbes.com/2007/04/24/toyota-general-motors-markets-equity-cx_vk_0424markets05.html

RexDog1
11-18-2008, 11:07 AM
The government is getting bigger and bigger ………….. I am torn about this “bailout” It may be too late? And we might not have a chose? Allot of people got rich in the car industry and they have their hand out now?? And did not foresee where the industry was going?? Or where they should have gone back in the 80s? and now we need to bail them out?? Or their Plan??? My wife drives a GM car, I drive a GM car, and will this change the US buying habits? It better………………….:mad:

I went to a FEMA meeting last night, and I am thinking?? Hummmm the next Bailout will be the Insurance Company’s …………………… just a thought …………………….?????? :confused:

Chicago190
11-18-2008, 11:10 AM
How can we bail out the investment banks and let our auto commpany's die. They provide a service, they provide cars based of the demand. Is it there fault for falling behind the jap's, YES
Is it there fault allowing the UAW to run the show, YES. 13 MILLON jobs at stake. 300k in the auto workers, that's 12.7 millon insurance providers, small business owners, restaurants workers, local fire/police dept, city job's, home builder, teachers, doctors. Every job field will be effected, Where in the world can the usa find 13 millon jobs for these poeple that are going to be effected.
But lets give the money to the banks/ super rich ceo's. I'm outraged, I agree they need to be rock solid and need and new plan and more competative, but at what cost. Loan the money or we will all feel the effects of doing nothing. Give them 100 billon if thats what it takes, force the UAW to make consession. We can send money over sea to rebuild Iraq but we can spend our own money to save 13 millon job!!!!!!!

Those job numbers are unrealistic because a. parts suppliers will still need to supply parts to automakers. Delphi (largest auto parts supplier in the world, coincidentally also in bankruptcy for 3 years running) does and will continue to sell parts to Toyota, Honda, etc. People still need cars. Second, if GM files for Ch. 11 and reorganizes, the jobs that will remain are the ones that are necessary to have a profitable and viable company. The government can't just give money to the automakers and say, "Well, here you go. You're still bleeding cash at a phenomenal rate and sell a product that no one wants, but I think this loan will solve the problem." The loans to the banks were to keep the financial system afloat, for the most part the banks are reorganizing themselves through mergers, job cuts, etc. Add to the fact that they are loans that will most likely be repaid (unless the banks default, hopefully that won't happen). A government loan to GM will not be repaid because they WILL go bankrupt unless something changes.

The government should do things to save the domestic auto industry. Provide the Ch. 11 debtor in possession financing to the companies, create a warranty guarantee organization to ease the fears of consumers, accept some of the pension obligations through the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp., etc. Money alone will not keep these companies alive. We live in a capialist society, deal with it. Companies that can't compete either learn to, or they die.

x-10ron
11-18-2008, 12:47 PM
Since when does the blue collar worker not deserve and retirment plan?
Since when does the blue collar worker not deserve and fair wage?
The cost of living goes up, but the wages stay the the same.
blue collar workers need to provide for there family just the same as white collar workers.
Is it fare the the ceo make millions and uaw workers make 100k,
ceo's make an ave of 400 dollar to everyone 1 dollar of the blue collar.
is that fair? i believe that the uaw need to make consession, but the ceo's need to be held accountable, rick wagoner 16 million a year? what happened to performance based bonus?
Rick won't feel the pinch, the blue collar workers will.
the local cafe will, the local part dist will, the dealership employees will, 1400 dealers, 700000 employees. this is the lesser of 2 evils. just imagine that the powertrain warr on your new 100k x-star gone, because GM builds these 6.0 and 8.1 and 5.7 liter motors,
but i guess you can always look for toyota to fill the void!!!!
sorry mr x-star owner, we cant fix your boat because the guy who make the coolant hoses went out of business because they lost there main contracts with the big three.
Yes toyoto is chopping the the bit to fill the void, 90% foreign built with the final 10% built here the the states.
Let's out source more jobs. lets give away everything the blue collar worker has fought for, lets make the rich richer, Why pay america when we can send the jobs over seas, let becomes 100% depended on foreign cars just like we are on oil, that the american way, but hey, i herd theres an opening at macdonald's, maybe they got and opening for manager in training for 9.15/hr, wow.
I guess we should just lay down and let the jap's take over,
Maybe mickyd's will have a job for my kids when they finish high school, because the UAW workers don't deserve to send there kids to collage, guess they don't deserve to be able to retire with golden parachute like the ceo's of aig and golds/sachs, wamu, leighmen bro, chase and etc. that rights only for the rich, for the people who came afford to have 2 planes and 4 heli's and 10 homes, screw the uaw, who needs blue collar workers when we got honda/toyota.

ChicagoX55
11-18-2008, 01:41 PM
Read this, some of you may not be seeing all the angles.

http://www.uaw.org/auto/pdf/uawtalkpoints.pdf

lanier92prostar
11-18-2008, 01:44 PM
Since when does the blue collar worker not deserve and retirment plan?
Since when does the blue collar worker not deserve and fair wage?
The cost of living goes up, but the wages stay the the same.
blue collar workers need to provide for there family just the same as white collar workers.
Is it fare the the ceo make millions and uaw workers make 100k,
ceo's make an ave of 400 dollar to everyone 1 dollar of the blue collar.
is that fair? i believe that the uaw need to make consession, but the ceo's need to be held accountable, rick wagoner 16 million a year? what happened to performance based bonus?
Rick won't feel the pinch, the blue collar workers will.
the local cafe will, the local part dist will, the dealership employees will, 1400 dealers, 700000 employees. this is the lesser of 2 evils. just imagine that the powertrain warr on your new 100k x-star gone, because GM builds these 6.0 and 8.1 and 5.7 liter motors,
but i guess you can always look for toyota to fill the void!!!!
sorry mr x-star owner, we cant fix your boat because the guy who make the coolant hoses went out of business because they lost there main contracts with the big three.
Yes toyoto is chopping the the bit to fill the void, 90% foreign built with the final 10% built here the the states.
Let's out source more jobs. lets give away everything the blue collar worker has fought for, lets make the rich richer, Why pay america when we can send the jobs over seas, let becomes 100% depended on foreign cars just like we are on oil, that the american way, but hey, i herd theres an opening at macdonald's, maybe they got and opening for manager in training for 9.15/hr, wow.
I guess we should just lay down and let the jap's take over,
Maybe mickyd's will have a job for my kids when they finish high school, because the UAW workers don't deserve to send there kids to collage, guess they don't deserve to be able to retire with golden parachute like the ceo's of aig and golds/sachs, wamu, leighmen bro, chase and etc. that rights only for the rich, for the people who came afford to have 2 planes and 4 heli's and 10 homes, screw the uaw, who needs blue collar workers when we got honda/toyota.

In part, I get your point, but I disagree with the part of UAW workers deserving the money they get. I am a teacher, in the last 4 years, we have not gotten any type of raise that competes with the cost of living increases that have happened due to the economy. I feel sorry for the workers who have let the UAW control their lives when they lose their jobs because the Big 3 let the UAW control the contracts. I agree that the CEO's have to make concessions also, but the UAW needs to make concessions so these workers can have jobs to keep.

x-10ron
11-18-2008, 01:44 PM
Read this, some of you may not be seeing all the angles.

http://www.uaw.org/auto/pdf/uawtalkpoints.pdf

amen!!!!!
call your senators and congressmen and tell them act now!!!!!!!!!

x-10ron
11-18-2008, 01:50 PM
In part, I get your point, but I disagree with the part of UAW workers deserving the money they get. I am a teacher, in the last 4 years, we have not gotten any type of raise that competes with the cost of living increases that have happened due to the economy. I feel sorry for the workers who have let the UAW control their lives when they lose their jobs because the Big 3 let the UAW control the contracts. I agree that the CEO's have to make concessions also, but the UAW needs to make concessions so these workers can have jobs to keep.




I feel your pain brother, my brother and sister-in-law are teachers. I know what you guys go threw everyday, but believe it or not the auto industry will effect teachers, teachers are paid threw local taxes, with out jobs there are no taxes being paid, with out taxes there is no school board bugets, you do the math. you will be the first one asked to give up a pension/ take a pay cut, maybe loss your job because the county has to make cut backs, it all trickles down.

Hollywood
11-18-2008, 01:59 PM
x-10ron, maybe you should apply for the CEO position since you think you deserve it.

lanier92prostar
11-18-2008, 02:14 PM
I feel your pain brother, my brother and sister-in-law are teachers. I know what you guys go threw everyday, but believe it or not the auto industry will effect teachers, teachers are paid threw local taxes, with out jobs there are no taxes being paid, with out taxes there is no school board bugets, you do the math. you will be the first one asked to give up a pension/ take a pay cut, maybe loss your job because the county has to make cut backs, it all trickles down.

I see the government giving all these mismanaged corporations all this money to bail them out so they can give out their bonuses and their employees can get raises and then the same government tells me that I can't get a raise because they spent my money on some greedy corporation. A lot of the school systems in my area are losing money because of government initiated programs but the government isn't paying for the programs. It is just as bad in government jobs such as mine. The school district is building this fancy high school for all the rich kids to attend because the taxpayers whined because the existing high schools were 15 and 8 years old. Spend the money on educating our kids and maybe we won't have to go through this mess again.

x-10ron
11-18-2008, 02:15 PM
x-10ron, maybe you should apply for the CEO position since you think you deserve it.

Thank you the vote!!!!
you must be in the repo business, seeing there the only ones that are going to have a jobs
but if you want to take this to personal level let me know!!!!! i bet we can lock thread in seconds.

ttu
11-18-2008, 02:17 PM
Thank you the vote!!!!
you must be in the repo business, seeing there the only ones that are going to have a jobs
but if you want to take this to personal level let me know!!!!! i bet we can lock thread in seconds.


i am suprised this thread has lasted this long.:rolleyes:

Sodar
11-18-2008, 02:19 PM
It's plain and simple. No bailouts. Just let the chips lie where they fall. I do not feel like writing a dissertation, but I wanted to voice my stance.

x-10ron
11-18-2008, 02:20 PM
I see the government giving all these mismanaged corporations all this money to bail them out so they can give out their bonuses and their employees can get raises and then the same government tells me that I can't get a raise because they spent my money on some greedy corporation. It is just as bad in government jobs such as mine. The school district is building this fancy high school for all the rich kids to attend because the taxpayers whined because the existing high schools were 15 and 8 years old. Spend the money on educating our kids and maybe we won't have to go through this mess again.

My brother teaches in Dallas ga, I believe thats close to you by lanier, he tells me all the time about the school board district. theres a reason why are kids are falling behind, greed, mismanaged funds and corrupt school official.

lanier92prostar
11-18-2008, 02:20 PM
It's plain and simple. No bailouts. Just let the chips lie where they fall. I do not feel like writing a dissertation, but I wanted to voice my stance.

I agree........

Sodar
11-18-2008, 02:24 PM
i am suprised this thread has lasted this long.:rolleyes:

x2 .

My guess is this one and the Global Warming thread by Jorski will be gone by evening.

flipper
11-18-2008, 02:41 PM
x2 .

My guess is this one and the Global Warming thread by Jorski will be gone by evening.

Think it will last that long?:D

Sodar
11-18-2008, 02:42 PM
Depends when Atlfootr gets done washing windows! :D

Hollywood
11-18-2008, 02:43 PM
F the UAW!

flipper
11-18-2008, 02:45 PM
Agreed .