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Witness140
11-09-2008, 03:13 AM
Has anyone found info related to the intracasies of Zero Off and Perfect Pass installs as far as VDIG boats go?

I'm very familiar with the ZO product and how it operates and is installed in an 08' 197 TT boat. I see ZO is an option in the 2009 lineup for the X-2, and I'm wondering if it is VDIG compatible?

I'm also wondering if there is a different version of ZO for the 2009 X boats - ie, a wakeboard edition. If so - does anyone know what the differences are between the wakeboard version and the 3 event version?

As far as PerfectPass goes, I understand that with VDIG in 09' PP Wakeboard Pro 6.5 is standard. PP is nice enough to have a VDIG tailored manual online, which I've read.

I have a Stargazer master module/harness/GPS sensor setup for my old 07' MCX dbw 197. Does the VDIG plug into the PP master module? Is it still a similar install? Can I install my StarGazer MM in a VDIG equipped X-2?

Thanks!

mclovin
11-09-2008, 11:47 AM
i have a 08 x14 w/v-dig pp mine is not holding accurate speed so i called pp to see about upgrading to stargazer(gps), they told me it is not compatable w/v-dig, iwould have to bypass it completely. start from scratch for (gps)setup.

JohnE
11-09-2008, 11:55 AM
i have a 08 x14 w/v-dig pp mine is not holding accurate speed so i called pp to see about upgrading to stargazer(gps), they told me it is not compatable w/v-dig, iwould have to bypass it completely. start from scratch for (gps)setup.

I have the same problem and was told the only option would be to go with a stand alone Zero Off system. Can't even go with a stand alone SG iirc. I don't understand why though.

Witness140
12-05-2008, 03:18 PM
I asked MC about this at Fanfare - didn't quite get all the info to figure it all out. I called PerfectPass today.

The PerfectPass Wakeboard Pro installed in the VDIG boat, specifically my X-2, is a "PerfectPass" system by origin. However, the VDIG system is Medallion's baby - and they are the ones that integrated Wakeboard Pro into VDIG, with the help of PerfectPass. The catch though....is that it isn't really a pure PP product. It still has PP's name on it, and the wakeboard pro's operation was created by them, but from a product support standpoint - it isn't their baby.

Is it a master module based system like past PP products? No. It is incorporated into the Medallion VDIG system internally. There is no ability to upgrade it, hook up a switch, a smart timer, or make it into anything but what comes with the boat. What you see is what you get - and that is why it is standard equipment on a VDIG boat - because it is a part of the Medallion VDIG.

Witness140
12-05-2008, 03:32 PM
Also - as far as speed control options in the X-2 for 2009 go......

There is an option for "zero off wakeboard." I contacted Jeremy (from ZO) to get some more info on ZO's integration into the boat.

ZO will not integrate into VDIG, as we already know. According to Jeremy:

A wakeboard system is significantly different from a 3 event system. All you can do on a wakeboard system is set the speed. There is no letter selection; there is no buoy timing, no jump settings.

So my next question was.....can I get the boat with the full system instead? Is it upgradable?

The head unit can be converted [at an additional charge], this is the price difference between the 2 systems. You will also need to purchase an extra antenna. Wakeboard systems only use one antenna.

So my next question, and I'm waiting for MC to call back - is if I were to order the full ZO system (which includes the basic wakeboard version) will the Medallion VDIG install still have the PP enabled? If it is an integral part of the Medallion software for VDIG, I'm guessing yes.

Mark from MC called this afternoon. My assumption was correct. If I went with the ZO option, I would have a dual system. I would have the VDIG wakeboard pro - complete with the push button activation, as well as a Zero-Off head unit (in lieu of a tach or speedo) with either ZO wakeboard or ZO 3 event, whichever I opted up to.

Witness140
12-05-2008, 05:53 PM
I have the same problem and was told the only option would be to go with a stand alone Zero Off system. Can't even go with a stand alone SG iirc. I don't understand why though.

The full explanation requires a little rewind to understand....

2005 - Indmar's MCX goes drive by wire in the 197. Perfect Pass develops a system that interfaces with the ECM/DBW system through the standard Indmar ECM.

2006 -The world of speed control is stable. DBW is prevalent in some more MC boats. PP 6.5ng is the norm, still with the Indmar ECM.

2007 - Zero Off appears on the scene - in bed with CC. A few 2007 Tournament Team 197's are out there with dual installs of PP6.5ng and Zero Off. These boats have an E-controls ECM instead of the standard Indmar ECM. ZO can only talk to the E-Controls ECM. PP finds a way to make their box talk to an E-Controls ECM for the side by side install. If both are turned on at once - ZO has priority. These few TT boats have the E-controls ECM with multiple plugs for PP and ZO. The PP master module and the ZO head unit talk directly to this ECM.

Early 2008 -The world of speed control and tournament skiing is about to be turned upside down by this ZO/PP deal. To make matters worse, ZO and PP are battling over the patent for the GPS differential speed control technology that makes ZO work. PP releases StarGazer. MC releases the 08' TT 197. All 100 boats will have dual installs via the same E-controls multiplug ECM. MC is not allowed to physically install the ZO head into the TT 197 dash, due to some sort of licensing or marketing agreement, probably due to the CC/ZO relationship. TT drivers must do the install themselves. No biggy, takes 5 minutes. Production MCX's still have the standard ECM that cannot talk to ZO. CC promo boats will mostly be ZO. Malibu is in the dark - without the ability to do a ZO install.

Summer 2008 - PP and ZO reach an agreement. ZO gets all OEM drive by wire speed control business starting with the 09' model year. Skiers are complaining about early versions of ZO. Diehard perfect pass skiers are flipped out because they can't even upgrade their boats to ZO to practice. The only time they see it is at tournaments or upgrade for 50-60K with a new DBW boat. StarGazer has it's own set of issues. The forums are alive with arguments and bad info.

July 2009 - MC ramps up for 2009 production. All OEM speed control installs for the 197 will be ZO in 2009. All 2009 Indmar ECM's will be E-Controls. PP works with Medallion to integrate wakeboard pro into the VDIG for the 09' model year. MC and ZO offer a huge rebate for those electing it in the 214 or 197.

So this leaves us with the answer to your question John. If you wanted to put a stand alone StarGazer system in your 214, it would not be capable of talking to the new E-Controls ECM. It is a stand-alone ECM that does not have the multi-port capability that the 2007 and 2008 TT boats had.

So how can PP work from within the VDIG? Simple - the wakeboard pro software that is in the VDIG resides in the Medallion MMDC. It is a 'middle-man' between the interface and the ECM. An interpreter of sorts. It is unfortunately an interpreter that will forever only know one language - wakeboard pro.

X-Aggie
12-06-2008, 03:34 PM
Wow I feel smarter after reading that post.

scramison
12-07-2008, 07:10 PM
How off were the PP for pre 2005?

I have been looking for a 2003-05 X-2 maybe a 2001-02 Xstar. The 2005 X-2 had drive by wire on the MCX? How much better will that be?

Witness140
12-07-2008, 07:42 PM
In 2005 the MCX in the 197 went DBW. I don't know if it did in the X-2 in that model year. I don't believe all models became DBW in the same model year.

Ole Miss Rebels
12-07-2008, 07:42 PM
my PP with gps calibration and tweaked settings as suggested by technical at PP holds speed within .1 to .2 in smooth water on my '08 XStar with L18. i can't imagine wanting/needing anything any more accurate than this for a wakeboard boat. also, i haven't found a rider who can slow my boat down by edging harder than the pp can compensate for. for three-event skiing, however, i suppose that pp could be less desirable than Zero Off or Stargazer. this is my third MC with PP Wakeboard Pro and i have been satisfied with all three systems.

Witness140
12-07-2008, 07:50 PM
My X-2 will occasionally be driven through the course. How often? I don't know. Probably not very often. The question was created when I wanted to install my smart timers in the new X-2. Old versions of Wakeboard Pro were able to be reset into the traditional 3 event mode. I was hoping I could accomplish this reset and plug in the smart timers. Then I would still have the real PP slalom pull and get course times.

I also already have a stargazer master module for an MCX out of my 197. I was wondering if I could upgrade what is in there to Stargazer because I already had it.

These were the reasons I started asking all the questions. If you want the boat to go 34.2 mph and don't want the 'real deal' pull - the recreational slalom mode in wakeboard pro is fine. If you want times and the real pull characteristics , based on everything I found out - you will need to go with the ZO option, and ask for the further upgrade to the 3 event version in lieu of ZO wakeboard.

I'm not sure if I will opt for the ZO 3 event in the new X-2 at this point. We'll see how it prices out. It will certainly be cheaper to do it now though.