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BriEOD
08-05-2005, 11:55 AM
That's a new one on me.

sizzler
08-05-2005, 11:58 AM
I GOT IT....but then again i am talking joined up :cool: :D

MarkP
08-05-2005, 11:58 AM
That's a new one on me.
I’ll send it over to the acronym thread

Ric
08-18-2005, 05:56 PM
I am having hell now that I moved into 22off
Here is me yesterday as I backed off to 15 off to get a good pass and it was just plain ugly!
I am starting to think that either my boot or boots need to come forward a notch or I need to move the fin. (see how much I'm on the tail of the ski?) :confused: :mad: .
This is my pull out at the pregates

Ric
08-18-2005, 05:57 PM
This is my glide????

Ric
08-18-2005, 05:58 PM
This is my turn in for the gates
sorry for the quality, I copied them from a digital video file

John B
08-18-2005, 06:32 PM
Steve it is hard to tell from the pictures, but it looks like your front leg is stiff.
More knee bend.

rodltg2
08-18-2005, 07:17 PM
push your hip into the handle. that should help bring the ski down. when going from 15 to 22 its easy to forget to pull through the wakes since you get such a faster cross through. so make sure you do that as well.

jraben8
08-18-2005, 07:21 PM
That front leg does look almost straight to me in the first picture as well as the second. Get your knees in a more athletic position. Think of it as the back knee touching the back of the front knee. Then get your hip to the handle...

Ric
08-18-2005, 07:26 PM
Thanks guys, so I should NOT jack with the boots at all right now right?

6ballsisall
08-18-2005, 08:02 PM
This is my turn in for the gates
sorry for the quality, I copied them from a digital video file


bend them thar legs Ric and push down on your back foot and put weight on the ball of your rear foot and your front foot

Mag_Red
08-18-2005, 10:18 PM
OK fellas..........how's this one look???

André
08-18-2005, 10:23 PM
I would put a lawyer on that surgeon Mag,your head is too big!

John B
08-18-2005, 10:29 PM
OK fellas..........how's this one look???

I'm not to say anything. The last time I said something about your skiing you got mad at me.
Will then again, get that handle down, and smile
:D

Mag_Red
08-18-2005, 10:29 PM
I would put a lawyer on that surgeon Mag,your head is too big!I was thinking about this hot little gal I met that week-end..and what can I say????? :D Didn't know it showed :o

Mag_Red
08-18-2005, 10:30 PM
I'm not to say anything. The last time I said sothing about your skiing you got mad at me.
Will then again, get that handel down, and smile
:D :wavey:
Hey John! I was thinking the same thing about the damned handle. Does it look like I'm breakin less at the waist compared to last year??

John B
08-18-2005, 10:39 PM
It looks much better.If you get the handle down the pull will be more at your hips and not your back.
It will be easier not to brake at the waist,and it is not at hard on your back. :headbang:

MarkP
08-18-2005, 11:30 PM
It looks much better.If you get the handle down the pull will be more at your hips and not your back.
It will be easier not to brake at the waist,and it is not at hard on your back. :headbang:
John, What happened to your camera man?? Waitin on shots from this year.. What ski are you on now??

6ballsisall
08-18-2005, 11:32 PM
How about this one? Onside turn, camera woman didn't zoom in very good

6ballsisall
08-18-2005, 11:33 PM
Offside turn, little closer in

USC8791
08-19-2005, 12:34 AM
OK fellas..........how's this one look???

Da Plane, Da Plane!

erkoehler
08-19-2005, 12:38 AM
Pretty good water you got there JR :D

Ric
08-19-2005, 12:27 PM
I would put a lawyer on that surgeon Mag,your head is too big!
ever since he bought that fancy truck, yes.

rodltg2
08-19-2005, 12:48 PM
mag, looks like your fighten it, let your arms out. you wont be as tired and sore next time.

BriEOD
08-19-2005, 12:50 PM
Hey Rod when are we going to see some shots of you skiing behind that pretty blue boat?

rodltg2
08-19-2005, 12:52 PM
its tough for me to get pics because at the ski lake its only me and the driver. if i rip an open water set this weekend on the houseboat trip ill try and have someone take one.

BriEOD
08-19-2005, 12:53 PM
Cool dude!! :headbang:

Upper Michigan Prostar190
08-20-2005, 11:17 AM
Mag and JR, all those pics look good. Nice skiing! Just a side note, what skis are you both skiing on??? :confused:

6ballsisall
08-20-2005, 11:30 AM
Mag and JR, all those pics look good. Nice skiing! Just a side note, what skis are you both skiing on??? :confused:


Phantom Truth with Superfeet Bindings

John B
08-20-2005, 12:07 PM
Well guys here are some shots from 7/1/05.
Since then I have got a little better on my off side.
The problem that I was having was that I carrying to much speed at the ball. :mad:
I was braking at the waist bring my shoulders forward trying to slow the ski down.
That makes for some great OTF falls. :D

Here is the gate

John B
08-20-2005, 12:08 PM
Ball One :D

John B
08-20-2005, 12:09 PM
Ball Two :mad:

MarkP
08-20-2005, 04:01 PM
Great shots John!

I cant believe we had to ask for them this year..

Leroy
08-20-2005, 05:02 PM
Nice shots John! You look so relaxed! How much off?

Leroy
08-22-2005, 11:55 AM
OK, from last Thursday. The last pictures I received great advise, easier to hear and do once, harder to keep doing it consistently. :o I'm still working on form.

THink this is 15 off (maybe 22) and 30 MPH.

I know I need to keep on edge and pulling through the wake, other comments?

Mag_Red
08-22-2005, 12:41 PM
Mag and JR, all those pics look good. Nice skiing! Just a side note, what skis are you both skiing on??? :confused:Obrian Synchro (girlie ski) :D Skied a Mapple two week-ends ago...............It will be my next ski :worthy: Night and day difference.

John B
08-22-2005, 02:18 PM
OK, from last Thursday. The last pictures I received great advise, easier to hear and do once, harder to keep doing it consistently. :o I'm still working on form.

THink this is 15 off (maybe 22) and 30 MPH.

I know I need to keep on edge and pulling through the wake, other comments?

Leroy,
It is hard to tell in those pictures, but in the third picture it looks like your pulling early.
I was always told that and didn't know what it meant.
I would said, " I'm not pulling the boat is,tell the boat not to pull so soon".
Don't begin the pull until your ski passes under your rope. Don't re-grab the rope till passes under the rope. :D

John B
08-22-2005, 02:20 PM
Nice shots John! You look so relaxed! How much off?

I was at 15 off :o

Upper Michigan Prostar190
08-22-2005, 04:26 PM
Obrian Synchro (girlie ski) :D Skied a Mapple two week-ends ago...............It will be my next ski :worthy: Night and day difference.


WHy do you call it a "girlie ski" Mag??

:confused:

UMP

Mag_Red
08-22-2005, 04:47 PM
WHy do you call it a "girlie ski" Mag??

:confused:

UMPI've received some ribbing about my ski here..just thought I'd beat them to it this time :D I thnk it's becuase some one's wife here has one.

Leroy
08-22-2005, 04:56 PM
Well guess I'd better cross that one off my list.......of course unless it gets me skiing like Betsy or some of the other ladies on here maybe it is for me!

Upper Michigan Prostar190
08-22-2005, 05:33 PM
I have heard those Synchros are good skis. I have never tried one, but I seriously considered one. I ended up going with the Vengeance instead.

Mag_Red
08-22-2005, 05:39 PM
I have heard those Synchros are good skis. I have never tried one, but I seriously considered one. I ended up going with the Vengeance instead.It's a great ski especially for free skiing. It's a bit wider than the Seige or the Mapple, so it's a bit more forgiving.

Ric
08-22-2005, 06:13 PM
bend them thar legs Ric and push down on your back foot and put weight on the ball of your rear foot and your front foot
ok working on the bent knees is harder than I thought
I've mentioned before that I simply muscle out my passes and it's obvious when you guys point out my straightlegs. I worked on it again yesterday and bent knees create alot of speed I didn't realize I could generate. That's a good thing but now my timing is horrible. looks like andre is safe for a while yet!!!!! :purplaugh

Upper Michigan Prostar190
08-22-2005, 09:27 PM
It's a great ski especially for free skiing. It's a bit wider than the Seige or the Mapple, so it's a bit more forgiving.

I hear you Mag. thats why I bought the Vengeance, its a bit wider. I am not in the league to ski a System 8 or a Monza, so I got the Vengeance as its more geared for a progression ski that an intermediate skier can handle. It just seemed to fit my style and skill level. I am sure that the Triumph series that HO does would have suited me just fine too, but I wanted Animal Bindings, and a "higher end" type ski just to see the difference. The siege is a good ski, but its a bit unstable for me at times when I really get on it. it craps out on me through the wakes. I feel more solid on the HO. :twocents:

stevo137
08-23-2005, 09:39 PM
Man you guys are makin' me hungry for a course! :D

stevo137
08-23-2005, 10:44 PM
I've been working on different knee flex through the wakes.
It's always toughest through "the bump".

MarkP
08-23-2005, 10:52 PM
stevo137


What boat speed is that??

BriEOD
08-23-2005, 10:55 PM
That is not exactly glass either.

stevo137
08-23-2005, 10:56 PM
And this is an example of more rigid.
It seems to keep the ski down through both wakes and I feel more control and speed.
Let me know what you think.
Thanks.

stevo137
08-23-2005, 10:59 PM
stevo137


What boat speed is that??
I've been somewhere between 34 -36.
Mrs. is doing her best...

stevo137
08-23-2005, 11:05 PM
That is not exactly glass either.
Brian, I rarely get glass. The day that I stayed the night and was invited to join the guys at the course this is what it looked like at 7:00 am.
They decided it was too rough and sank the course.

BriEOD
08-23-2005, 11:10 PM
Awww man that stinks!! Is it a lake or a river? I have concluded that river are the best. Traffic moves both ways and trees keep the wind and in turn the chop down.

Mag_Red
08-23-2005, 11:12 PM
I've been working on different knee flex through the wakes.
It's always toughest through "the bump". What wake???? You want a bump????? Let me pull you behind my 209 some time :D

BriEOD
08-23-2005, 11:16 PM
Is it really that bad?

Mag_Red
08-23-2005, 11:18 PM
Is it really that bad? Not really at 21 off and 32 MPH. But I did get a pull behind an older Prostar two weeks ago and talk about no wake! :worthy:

6ballsisall
08-23-2005, 11:26 PM
Not really at 21 off and 32 MPH. But I did get a pull behind an older Prostar two weeks ago and talk about no wake! :worthy:

uhh....... you mean 22' off?

stevo137
08-23-2005, 11:26 PM
Not really at 21 off and 32 MPH. But I did get a pull behind an older Prostar two weeks ago and talk about no wake! :worthy:
Yes Mag, but you have a lot more space for slimmies! ;)

stevo137
08-23-2005, 11:28 PM
Awww man that stinks!! Is it a lake or a river? I have concluded that river are the best. Traffic moves both ways and trees keep the wind and in turn the chop down.
It's an 800 acre lake and extremely busy at times.

Mag_Red
08-23-2005, 11:33 PM
uhh....... you mean 22' off?yeah some thing like that 8p

Ric
08-23-2005, 11:34 PM
What wake???? You want a bump????? Let me pull you behind my 209 some time :D
git that ski on an edge and bend your knees! it's easy! :rolleyes:

Mag_Red
08-23-2005, 11:34 PM
Yes Mag, but you have a lot more space for slimmies! ;)Slimmed out this year :rolleyes: Hopefully next year will be better. :D Although my life has been drama free this Summer :purplaugh

6ballsisall
08-23-2005, 11:37 PM
Slimmed out this year :rolleyes: Hopefully next year will be better. :D Although my life has been drama free this Summer :purplaugh

Mag you just been working that insensitive side of you out right? Shoot with that Houseboat man you outta be rolling in the women! You just need to take it to 76 falls :purplaugh

Mag_Red
08-23-2005, 11:43 PM
git that ski on an edge and bend your knees! it's easy! :rolleyes:If they were bent any more they'd call me Tatoo :D http://www.tmcowners.com/photopost/data/500/The_Bump.jpg

stevo137
08-23-2005, 11:45 PM
Looks good Mag and that wake is not bad at all.

Mag_Red
08-23-2005, 11:47 PM
Looks good Mag and that wake is not bad at all.Coming from you I'll take that as a compliment :D I almost have that "Stevo...I'm going to muscle my way through the wake" look. :toast:

Ric
08-23-2005, 11:48 PM
If they were bent any more they'd call me Tatoo :D
lookin like wade cox out there maggy! do you stay on edge THRU the wake?

Mag_Red
08-23-2005, 11:50 PM
looks like wade cox out there maggy! do you stay on edge THRU the wake? Well hell yeah :D Need to get through that bump as fast as possible :purplaugh

6ballsisall
08-23-2005, 11:54 PM
Well hell yeah :D Need to get through that bump as fast as possible :purplaugh

lookin good Mag!! Your pulling pretty good there!!

Ric
08-23-2005, 11:56 PM
Well hell yeah :D Need to get through that bump as fast as possible :purplaugh
apparantly I have yet to figure out the bent knee stance
workinonit!

PornStar190
08-23-2005, 11:58 PM
lookin like wade cox out there maggy! do you stay on edge THRU the wake?

Hey Ric, have any advice on keeping on edge through the wake?
I always seem to go flat just prior to hitting the first lip and usually end up jumping through the wake.

TIA

PS190

parks_jr_55
08-24-2005, 12:13 AM
I think it was Stevo137 that told me this....But step on the gas pedal when you are going through the wake. It helped me ALOT.

stevo137
08-24-2005, 12:22 AM
I think it was Stevo137 that told me this....But step on the gas pedal when you are going through the wake. It helped me ALOT.

Floor it!
(35 off @ 34 mph). yee haa! :D

André
08-24-2005, 08:07 AM
Looking good Mag !
I would say you look more like Marcus Brown and his west coast technique,low hips and bent knees...

Mag_Red
08-24-2005, 08:59 AM
Looking good Mag !
I would say you look more like Marcus Brown and his west coast technique,low hips and bent knees...Thanks Andre' :headbang:

6ballsisall
08-24-2005, 09:01 AM
Thanks Andre' :headbang:

top of the morning to you Mag! :wavey:

Leroy
08-24-2005, 09:15 AM
Stevo; You are in front of the bubbles!



Floor it!
(35 off @ 34 mph). yee haa! :D

stevo137
10-02-2005, 01:16 PM
Skiing October 1st.
I know that I'm ready to grab a bit early but still nursing a sore right shoulder.
Could someone please photoshop me just clearing a slalom ball? :D

Leroy
10-02-2005, 01:54 PM
Here you go Stevo! Ripping it up!



:D I'll do better!

Farmer Ted
10-02-2005, 02:11 PM
Here's one....

Ric
06-05-2006, 05:31 PM
Ok I am extremely late and the knees look locked but JUST LOOK at that spray! yeeehaw

Kell
06-05-2006, 05:35 PM
Outstanding Ric!

MarkP
06-05-2006, 05:37 PM
About time someone woke this thread up!

Ric
06-05-2006, 06:38 PM
another...

the best way to take up slack at the ball is just lean back and pull your hands to your chin!! :rolleyes:

BuoyChaser
06-06-2006, 12:25 AM
try keeping your shoulders square to the boat, like Marcus Brown is talking about on his forum (makes total sense to me, now just need to practice behind the boat): http://p097.ezboard.com/fmarcusbrownfrm8.showMessage?topicID=7.topic

Once back on the handle you must continue to shift your weight in the direction you wish to travel...which is across to the shore you are approaching. If you executed the turn well and did very little rotation to get back to the handle you should already be in a good position to "slide sideways" towards the opposite shore. However, if you rotated to get back to the handle at the finish of the turn, you will then need to QUICKLY open back up to the boat (square your shoulders), and allow your center of mass to fall ahead of your feet. Old School/New School/West Coast....acceleration is all the same....the more you shift your weight in the direction you wish to go, the faster you will get there! Doesn't matter where the handle is or whatever..... But, I will say that having the handle by your knees isn't something I've ever coached, nor is it advantageous to slalom skiing. Unless you have gorilla arms that are disproportionately long, there should be no reason for the handle to be touching your knees.

All you must remember is that you want to try to be as light on the rope (and subsequently ski) and "feel" your weight shifting in the direction you want to go. The easiest way to do this is to open (square) your shoulders up to the boat. Let me know if this helps....

MB

Ric
06-06-2006, 12:40 AM
I think I can apply that chaser, thanks. I pretty much do everything wrong but I still go hard at it

what did ferris bueller say? "and I never had one lesson" haha

rodltg2
06-06-2006, 12:42 AM
ric , you need to ski that wider. at 15 you need to be really wide on the ball..

BuoyChaser
06-06-2006, 12:52 AM
bend those knees and let the ski turn itself around the ball, then you won't be ridin' the tail skiin' down course...should be easier on your back!!!

88 PS190
06-06-2006, 02:56 AM
Long lines ie 15 off feel harder to me than shorter lines since you have to work harder to achieve acceleration.

In my opinion its a difficult pass to learn.

shepherd
06-06-2006, 04:06 PM
try keeping your shoulders square to the boat,

What does it mean to keep your shoulders square to the boat. If I'm standing upright behind the boat and looking straight ahead at it, are my shoulders square then? Or is it when I'm standing behind the boat and looking directly to my right (or left) at the boat (i.e., the line of my shoulders are parallel to the boat path)?

I've always done it the second way, I guess that's "old school?"

BuoyChaser
06-06-2006, 04:20 PM
What does it mean to keep your shoulders square to the boat. If I'm standing upright behind the boat and looking straight ahead at it, are my shoulders square then? Or is it when I'm standing behind the boat and looking directly to my right (or left) at the boat (i.e., the line of my shoulders are parallel to the boat path)?

I've always done it the second way, I guess that's "old school?"
shoulders should only rotate slightly it's your hips that rotate around the buoys...check out Marcus video and his articles for a better explanation from the pro!!!just what i'm trying to work on, dropping my old school "windshield wiper" ridin' the heel turn..

88 PS190
06-06-2006, 05:24 PM
If you look at your picture your body is a rail. With your feet in line w/ your hips and head. In that posistion you lean against the boat and pull the line tight creating lots of load on the line, and therefore into your body. Notice also that your left shoulder is rotated in line with your hips, ie they're in the same plane.

That is solid 100% old school lean.

"squared"...

Stand next to a park bench in slalom stance with your knees up to the bench, and think about sitting down on it w/ your shoulders sitting square to the back of the bench... what must you do? Your hips will rotate forwards so that you can sit. In that posistion your shoulders and hips can end up facing square to the bench w/ your feet running perpendicular to the bench in slalom stance still.

Granted that over exaggerates the amount of rotation but its the idea.

As buoy chaser mentioned watche Marcus Brown's videos. He has one entitled one handed gate on his website, i think its around 15 minutes long, but it pays 10 fold if you sit and listen and understand, (watch it w/ a handle and a post nearby and its 100 fold). Also look at the video of the down hill skier, i think its Bode but i don't remember right now.

Either way you'll notice that as the downhill skier turns his body is constantly moving forwards on top of his skis, if he were to lean back on his ankles (essentially onto a back foot) and try to do the turn not on the balls of his feet the tails would ride in front of him and he'd fall.

Other thoughts. If you stand in slalom stance and lean against a slalom handle tied to a pull feel where you are. There should be approximately neutral force on your feet. If you are back foot heavy experiment w/ adding weight to your front foot while keeping your shoulders "square" or open to the post. You'll probably find your front knee will bend a bit more and your angle of your rear foot to your rear leg will become more acute.

Go back and look at Farmer Ted's edited picture of andy mapple. You'll notice that his shoulders don't go down that far to the water at the end of the corner, yet his hips have the ski loaded and ready to go.

BuoyChaser
06-06-2006, 05:34 PM
If you look at your picture your body is a rail. With your feet in line w/ your hips and head. In that posistion you lean against the boat and pull the line tight creating lots of load on the line, and therefore into your body. Notice also that your left shoulder is rotated in line with your hips, ie they're in the same plane.

That is solid 100% old school lean.

"squared"...

Stand next to a park bench in slalom stance with your knees up to the bench, and think about sitting down on it w/ your shoulders sitting square to the back of the bench... what must you do? Your hips will rotate forwards so that you can sit. In that posistion your shoulders and hips can end up facing square to the bench w/ your feet running perpendicular to the bench in slalom stance still.

Granted that over exaggerates the amount of rotation but its the idea.

As buoy chaser mentioned watche Marcus Brown's videos. He has one entitled one handed gate on his website, i think its around 15 minutes long, but it pays 10 fold if you sit and listen and understand, (watch it w/ a handle and a post nearby and its 100 fold). Also look at the video of the down hill skier, i think its Bode but i don't remember right now.

Either way you'll notice that as the downhill skier turns his body is constantly moving forwards on top of his skis, if he were to lean back on his ankles (essentially onto a back foot) and try to do the turn not on the balls of his feet the tails would ride in front of him and he'd fall.

Other thoughts. If you stand in slalom stance and lean against a slalom handle tied to a pull feel where you are. There should be approximately neutral force on your feet. If you are back foot heavy experiment w/ adding weight to your front foot while keeping your shoulders "square" or open to the post. You'll probably find your front knee will bend a bit more and your angle of your rear foot to your rear leg will become more acute.

Go back and look at Farmer Ted's edited picture of andy mapple. You'll notice that his shoulders don't go down that far to the water at the end of the corner, yet his hips have the ski loaded and ready to go.
great description of the park bench, got any pictures???

so are you to the side of the park bench or in front of the park bench like you normally would sit down???guess you lost me when you said your ski would be perpendicular to the park bench, don't you mean parallel...so through the course the park bench is always parallel to the ski course???

88 PS190
06-06-2006, 05:36 PM
I suppose i should keep myself to one idea of parallel and perpendicular. If you are sitting on a bench normally we'll call that perpendicular, so the ski would then be parrallel to the face of the bench.

Either way, stick your feet in slalom form w/ both legs up next to the bench and sit on it. And i'll be damned if you don't rotate your upper body squared to the bench and instead sit w/ your body straight and all Old school....

You don't even need to fully sit to demo this, most of the time people given the suggestion will rotate w/ their but a foot up.

BuoyChaser
06-06-2006, 06:02 PM
I suppose i should keep myself to one idea of parallel and perpendicular. If you are sitting on a bench normally we'll call that perpendicular, so the ski would then be parrallel to the face of the bench.

Either way, stick your feet in slalom form w/ both legs up next to the bench and sit on it. And i'll be damned if you don't rotate your upper body squared to the bench and instead sit w/ your body straight and all Old school....

You don't even need to fully sit to demo this, most of the time people given the suggestion will rotate w/ their but a foot up.
think i'm getting it, so just need to envision that sitting down motion behind the boat and after completing my turn...

thinking of rigging up a homemade device to practice this great movement...will get the wife to take a pic of me tonight practicing it off the pylon and using the rear bench seat...

88 PS190
06-06-2006, 07:06 PM
Keep this in mind, its not a "sit" down.

Ie. if your hips fall back you've defeated the whole purpose. Your butt needs to slide along a line towards where you want to go. If it drops back your ski goes off plane, the tip goes high and you go slow and miss the ball.

Its more an angular slide towards the front.

So don't sit into the rear bench seat, angulate towards it w/ the lower body which will free the upper body to be open to the boat, and it'll look like a downhill skier ripping through a turn.

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/writers/tim_layden/10/19/layden1019/p1_miller_1019.jpg

Good image of what i mean by not sitting back. His hips are actually to the side allowing his knees to bend, not back to get the bend out, which can be seen in the edges of the parabolic ski, which are fully loaded out to the tip.

If he'd been back those tips would be unloaded and he'd fall immediately.

I'll try to get some pictures of what i'm saying today also, not off a pylon since the boat is 5 hours away.

edited... hole is spelled whole...

88 PS190
06-06-2006, 07:13 PM
http://www.iwsfranking.com/skierinfo/info/infoimages/MarcusBROWNDubna2.jpg

marcus brown through the wakes, notice that his hips are forwards but are also rotated forwards, it doesn't appear that he is "sitting"

go and watch the video... everyone.

Ric
06-06-2006, 11:50 PM
ric , you need to ski that wider. at 15 you need to be really wide on the ball..
howcome it is that I find myself not skiing wide enough for 1,3,5 but can get wide and finish the turn at the ball on 2,4,6?

I have had hell with 15off 34 for a year now and barely run it and get into 22 and am good for 4 or 5 at 22off

maybe I should just start the season at 22off?

BuoyChaser
06-06-2006, 11:54 PM
howcome it is that I find myself not skiing wide enough for 1,3,5 but can get wide and finish the turn at the ball on 2,4,6?

I have had hell with 15off 34 for a year now and barely run it and get into 22 and am good for 4 or 5 at 22off

maybe I should just start the season at 22off?
there is such a big difference b/w 15' off and 22' think that is where we struggle...

shepherd
06-07-2006, 12:23 AM
http://www.iwsfranking.com/skierinfo/info/infoimages/MarcusBROWNDubna2.jpg

marcus brown through the wakes, notice that his hips are forwards but are also rotated forwards, it doesn't appear that he is "sitting"

go and watch the video... everyone.

OK, that's going to be my new screensaver at work so I can study that body position and work on it at the lake. :worthy: I hope Mr. Brown don't mind...
I may even try that new-fangled handle grip position - right hand down!

BuoyChaser
06-07-2006, 01:04 AM
OK, that's going to be my new screensaver at work so I can study that body position and work on it at the lake. :worthy: I hope Mr. Brown don't mind...
I may even try that new-fangled handle grip position - right hand down!
right hand down only if right footed...

88 PS190
06-07-2006, 03:53 AM
My opinion on line length and i mentioned this earlier as well.

At long line lengths, 0 and 15' off and even the 22' off pass there is a lot of line between you and the boat, this makes you feel like you should have extra time etc. to make your turns.... NOPE.

The boat goes the same speed the bouys are the same physical locations, your trajectory must be the same (minus the fact that you can ski the handle out to the ball) but you can get the handle out to the ball well into the 30' foot offs is it 38 the first that falls short? I forget at the moment... maybe once i can ski 38!...

Ok my point being. At long line lengths the rope has alot of stretch, due to a certain amount of stretch permitted per length of line. Additionally the boat has less effect over the skier ie. the max angle between the skier and the boat is much less on longer lines due to how you don't come up on the boat.

The effect of this in my opinion and i've heard others voice this as well, that it is hard to make good turns and good fluid cuts on the long line compared to a bit shorter.

Additionally, if you've never tried the wakes at '28 or more feet off, you don't know why you own a ski boat.

The wakes disappear, and when you're talking about learning to hold edge this is very important.

My recommendations (and don't start too hard since its early season... atleast in the north) lots of time free skiing, and run a '22 or '28 line (depending on speed the bump will be in a different area) Practice taking a good pull out, then either a turn or a two handed gate and try just holding the posistion you are in after the turn, work until you're skiing back to the handle and on edge. Then you can take it into the course and work on timing it properly for the gates and your speed division.

But if you've developed a solid form you should feel like a hot knife through butter... or like you're skiing on rails through the course... your pick.

shepherd
06-07-2006, 11:40 AM
right hand down only if right footed...

Right, that's me... goofy foot

starman205
06-07-2006, 12:00 PM
Can't seem to locate the AMrcus Brown online video. Will someone post the link??? :wavey:

88 PS190
06-07-2006, 12:28 PM
http://www.marcusbrown.net/video.html

BuoyChaser
06-07-2006, 12:57 PM
My opinion on line length and i mentioned this earlier as well.

At long line lengths, 0 and 15' off and even the 22' off pass there is a lot of line between you and the boat, this makes you feel like you should have extra time etc. to make your turns.... NOPE.

The boat goes the same speed the bouys are the same physical locations, your trajectory must be the same (minus the fact that you can ski the handle out to the ball) but you can get the handle out to the ball well into the 30' foot offs is it 38 the first that falls short? I forget at the moment... maybe once i can ski 38!...

Ok my point being. At long line lengths the rope has alot of stretch, due to a certain amount of stretch permitted per length of line. Additionally the boat has less effect over the skier ie. the max angle between the skier and the boat is much less on longer lines due to how you don't come up on the boat.

The effect of this in my opinion and i've heard others voice this as well, that it is hard to make good turns and good fluid cuts on the long line compared to a bit shorter.

Additionally, if you've never tried the wakes at '28 or more feet off, you don't know why you own a ski boat.

The wakes disappear, and when you're talking about learning to hold edge this is very important.

My recommendations (and don't start too hard since its early season... atleast in the north) lots of time free skiing, and run a '22 or '28 line (depending on speed the bump will be in a different area) Practice taking a good pull out, then either a turn or a two handed gate and try just holding the posistion you are in after the turn, work until you're skiing back to the handle and on edge. Then you can take it into the course and work on timing it properly for the gates and your speed division.

But if you've developed a solid form you should feel like a hot knife through butter... or like you're skiing on rails through the course... your pick.
i've never really had a total technical understanding of my form through the course...i've had a lot of people over the years give me suggestions, I've attended ski school and clinics recently with Hamrick & Rhoni, but everyone always has a different opinion and different things to work on...have a clinic saturday in Mass with Jamie Beauchesne

think for the first time in my life, the other night studying Marcus Brown video on the one-handed gate and reading his articles, I've come to understand from a technical point of view, what i'm SUPPOSED to be doing...not like before, keep your trailing arm in, pivot on the pylon, keep shoulders square, bend those knees, keep knees together, relax through the gates...what does that really mean, just destroys your mental game of skiing buoys...

but instead focusing on the pendulum and "center of mass" and doing the park bench squat to build power was GREAT LAST NIGHT...first time didn't have to work hard for buoys and felt consistent...still getting stood up and have trouble with strenghth of keeping knees bent, but got 4 at 22'off 36mph which is great this time of year!!!must have been going for the first time without my shorty, 10lbs lighter!!!

completely gives new enjoyment to the sport!!!so when is MasterCraft doing a cruise across america with the likes of Marcus Brown...carry on the great tradition that Liquid Force and others have done with wakeboarding!!!

rodltg2
06-07-2006, 01:01 PM
you can make a trip out here. he's skiis alot at a lake near by..

starman205
06-07-2006, 01:03 PM
88 PS190, Thanks for the link!!! :toast:

BuoyChaser
06-07-2006, 01:05 PM
you can make a trip out here. he's skiis alot at a lake near by..
that's a long trip for just a couple sets, but certainly would be well worth it...how far are you from bakersfield/la area, to make the drive up???

we've got some customers in around la area, and one up in Roseville...

rodltg2
06-07-2006, 01:19 PM
im about 4-5 hours from bakerfield and i can see roseville from my window..

BuoyChaser
06-07-2006, 01:23 PM
im about 4-5 hours from bakerfield and i can see roseville from my window..so is that an open invitation if i can justify a business trip???love doin' biz trips and gettin' ski sets in, so much more fun than just hitting the golf course...

rodltg2
06-07-2006, 01:29 PM
sure , come on out. i have 2 private sites to use. and if you want to ski with marcus let me know..only thing we run malibu and nautiques though...

BuoyChaser
06-07-2006, 01:58 PM
sure , come on out. i have 2 private sites to use. and if you want to ski with marcus let me know..only thing we run malibu and nautiques though...
love skiin' behind both, just don' love ownin' them, that's why i've got my DBW 197 MCX!!!waited 10yrs to buy a new one, because for the longest time all three were very equal due to skiability but the DBW has such a "slower" feel to it, due to it's consistency...

gotta love these skiin' connections...found more skiers the places i travel from on here...

shepherd
06-07-2006, 02:46 PM
From the Marcus Brown web page:
In the past, slalom skiing and coaching has entailed telling someone to "get their hips up and shoulders back"
That sure brings back memories of ski school where the instructor would always yell at us to "get your hips up!" That got to be kind of our motto on the river afterwards. I'll say that it did help me as a beginner get my ski on edge better for the pull through the wakes. But, I'm going to start concentrating on the center of mass idea like Marcus teaches.

I noticed in the Marcus videos that the skiers seem to lead with their hips when they transition from the turn into the pull (and keep their shoulders square to the boat). The way I've been doing it, I think I lead with my shoulders and kick my hip up toward the handle to get into the "old school" pull position when I'm coming out of the turn.

Man, this is going to take some work... old dog you know... :cool:

88 PS190
06-07-2006, 04:33 PM
Its exciting stuff.

Some things I'm trying currently.

Pull out drills. Marcus and west coast slalom are big on one handed gates. A large part of learning this is learning the quick short pull out w/o dropping your hips. So i've been starting by the wake, pulling out and practicing a one handed turn. With out worrying about the gates and such so that i'm getting the feel down. Avoid the following: Dropping the hips back, and generating slack line or slowing down to much before your turn.

Other things i've been working on, Getting in a new school stance and just riding my edges, its really quite enlightening and quite the work out. Getting in a good power stance with the new form instead of standing tall hips out. I was amazed at the burn in my quads... better than doing squats anyday...

Some of the most recent waterski mag's have had great articles in them. The marcus brown issue, the one w/ billy susi and the one w/ tarah benzel on the covers are al really informative on various issues of slalom skiing.

And i'd love to rip that Tick Tock like Trent Finlayson.

BuoyChaser
06-07-2006, 06:18 PM
I noticed in the Marcus videos that the skiers seem to lead with their hips when they transition from the turn into the pull (and keep their shoulders square to the boat). The way I've been doing it, I think I lead with my shoulders and kick my hip up toward the handle to get into the "old school" pull position when I'm coming out of the turn.

Man, this is going to take some work... old dog you know... :cool:
i started last night and was rough the first two passes, but then just started to click, envisioned myself sitting on that park bench...now just need to keep my knees bent in the turn, get so much speed across the wake almost fly across into a brake for the turn...

shepherd
06-07-2006, 06:36 PM
What's this "park bench" exercise? I haven't had time to read everything on MB's web site yet, but do you have a link or directions to it?

88 PS190
06-07-2006, 08:13 PM
shepherd just flip back a few pages on this thread, i described it.

Its just a visualization tool for what your center of gravity ie. hips are doing. And a way to show you where they should be going.

shepherd
06-08-2006, 12:25 AM
OK, got it. Thanks. I read it back then but didn't know what the he!! you were talking about. But after reading more and seeing the pictures, I know exactly what you mean. Once it sunk in to my dense brain... bing!.... great description 88.

Mag_Red
06-08-2006, 12:54 AM
OK, got it. Thanks. I read it back then but didn't know what the he!! you were talking about. But after reading more and seeing the pictures, I know exactly what you mean. Once it sunk in to my dense brain... bing!.... great description 88.I still don't get the park bench analogy :confused:

88 PS190
06-08-2006, 01:22 AM
Ok mag i'll try to set this up for you good and proper.

You find a bench, or a beam, or anything that comes up on your leg around 1.5 feet or so, like a bench would.

Now if you stand so that you are in slalom stance facing side ways to the bench, not away from it like if you were normally going to sit down.

So here you are w/ both of your legs against it. You couldn't just lean right and be on the bench. You'd just break your knees before you could sit down. So what do you do?

Give it a try, but you'll find that in order to park your butt the first instinct is to turn your shoulders. Now if you turn your shoulders you are "open".

This relates to the new school turn in the following ways.
1. Center of gravity has to slide FORWARDS, your hips never ever drop back they merely rotate and slide along a vector towards where you want to go.
2. Keeping your shoulders open to the boat, vs having them in line w/ your ski allows this motion.

How to relate this open rotated feel to skiing.

If you take a handle section looped around a tree, then grab hold of it and get into a lean there two possible ways you could end up.

Old school... Knees have slight bend but both point in line w/ toes, shoulders and hips would be in line with your toes as well and your body would be cranked over. Feel it in your hands? if you aren't wearing gloves it will hurt like doing pull ups, alot of weight alot of tension.

New school. As you allow your shoulders to face straight at the tree with your feet in the same place as they were for the old school lean you'll find that your hips can slide forwards from where they are, and as they do this you'll find your body gets into a lean posistion that is very strong, has good balance on your feet etc. And you'll notice that your hands don't get sore so quick, you could hold this posistion far longer with out tiring.

If you go back to my origional descriptions of this you'll see the pictures of marcus ripping it through the wakes, and the one of the alpine skier.

Look at the alpine skier how he appears to be sitting, but note that in reality his hips and upper body are square to where he's going, ie down hill but drifting towards where the turn wants him to be. The tips of his skis are loaded and he's very strong in that posistion.

The park bench is just a tool to start the expanation of what the feeling is. Its not a way to learn to be a better skier but its a way to start thinking about it.

If you're at your computer you could even do it w/ your chair just make sure you don't fall.

lemme know if you've got it mag red. otherwise i've got my webcam ready to shoot an explanation.

Mag_Red
06-08-2006, 01:48 AM
Got it now! :headbang: But feel free to make a video clip :D

88 PS190
06-08-2006, 02:07 AM
See that makes me wonder if you don't get it!!!

Its funny seeing people do it the first time, like standing next to them... Some people will do the oddest things. Flopping over, putting a hand down and placing part of their hip joint on the thing.

doesn't work for them I guess.

shepherd
06-08-2006, 12:41 PM
http://www.tmcowners.com/photopost/data/500/The_Bump.jpg

Mag,
Check out this picture of you from a few pages back. If kind of looks like you were almost doing what 88's talking about -- shoulders square/facing the boat, knees bent and getting ready to sit down on the bench! Probably need to move the center of mass forward though. I'll leave it to 88 to pick apart your position though :o

Mag_Red
06-08-2006, 12:53 PM
Mag,
Check out this picture of you from a few pages back. If kind of looks like you were almost doing what 88's talking about -- shoulders square/facing the boat, knees bent and getting ready to sit down on the bench! Probably need to move the center of mass forward though. I'll leave it to 88 to pick apart your position though :oI guess I've been doing that West Coast thing for a few years now.........I have always done the one handed gate.....just didn't know it was the new thing to do. I did try the bench thing this morning and definately see how you have to shift your wt forward to get to the seated position. Can't wait to get on the water and try it. Feel free to tear my form apart. :D

BuoyChaser
06-08-2006, 01:54 PM
Ok mag i'll try to set this up for you good and proper.

You find a bench, or a beam, or anything that comes up on your leg around 1.5 feet or so, like a bench would.

Now if you stand so that you are in slalom stance facing side ways to the bench, not away from it like if you were normally going to sit down.

So here you are w/ both of your legs against it. You couldn't just lean right and be on the bench. You'd just break your knees before you could sit down. So what do you do?

Give it a try, but you'll find that in order to park your butt the first instinct is to turn your shoulders. Now if you turn your shoulders you are "open".

This relates to the new school turn in the following ways.
1. Center of gravity has to slide FORWARDS, your hips never ever drop back they merely rotate and slide along a vector towards where you want to go.
2. Keeping your shoulders open to the boat, vs having them in line w/ your ski allows this motion.

How to relate this open rotated feel to skiing.

If you take a handle section looped around a tree, then grab hold of it and get into a lean there two possible ways you could end up.

Old school... Knees have slight bend but both point in line w/ toes, shoulders and hips would be in line with your toes as well and your body would be cranked over. Feel it in your hands? if you aren't wearing gloves it will hurt like doing pull ups, alot of weight alot of tension.

New school. As you allow your shoulders to face straight at the tree with your feet in the same place as they were for the old school lean you'll find that your hips can slide forwards from where they are, and as they do this you'll find your body gets into a lean posistion that is very strong, has good balance on your feet etc. And you'll notice that your hands don't get sore so quick, you could hold this posistion far longer with out tiring.

If you go back to my origional descriptions of this you'll see the pictures of marcus ripping it through the wakes, and the one of the alpine skier.

Look at the alpine skier how he appears to be sitting, but note that in reality his hips and upper body are square to where he's going, ie down hill but drifting towards where the turn wants him to be. The tips of his skis are loaded and he's very strong in that posistion.

The park bench is just a tool to start the expanation of what the feeling is. Its not a way to learn to be a better skier but its a way to start thinking about it.

If you're at your computer you could even do it w/ your chair just make sure you don't fall.

lemme know if you've got it mag red. otherwise i've got my webcam ready to shoot an explanation.
FAQ worthy

still would love to see the webcam at your computer chair with wheels!!! :headbang:

88 PS190
06-08-2006, 02:01 PM
luckily my computer chair does not have wheels... Or else i'd be in trouble.

Mag's got the form locked in pretty well it looks like, notice that his lower back into his butt is still straight and the bend is at his hip joints, which is not breaking at the waist.

What i was going to enquire about was the face he's making... Pained joy? I tried enlarging it so we could all take a peak, but its a bit grainy and low res as you enlarge it.

Mag_Red
06-08-2006, 02:06 PM
luckily my computer chair does not have wheels... Or else i'd be in trouble.

Mag's got the form locked in pretty well it looks like, notice that his lower back into his butt is still straight and the bend is at his hip joints, which is not breaking at the waist.

What i was going to enquire about was the face he's making... Pained joy? I tried enlarging it so we could all take a peak, but its a bit grainy and low res as you enlarge it. :rant: There'sno need to be making fun of my facial expressions :D I was smiling ;)

88 PS190
06-08-2006, 02:10 PM
its ok, if i can find it i've got a picture of me looking constipated somewhere here.

MarkP
06-08-2006, 03:28 PM
:rant: There'sno need to be making fun of my facial expressions :D I was smiling ;)
I would hate to see you Angry then.:o .

#47of100TeamMC
06-08-2006, 03:41 PM
I thought posting is a bad idea, but who can't use some criticism this early in the season...

Ok, the critical comments start... now.

88 PS190
06-08-2006, 03:42 PM
strong skier... old school lean, but powerful, from the picture its hard to tell if you are in a course and just rounded a ball...

Or free skiing, first instincts say you are narrow from the posistion of the froth and turn but i dunno from that pic.

What do you run in the course?

#47of100TeamMC
06-08-2006, 04:19 PM
strong skier... old school lean, but powerful, from the picture its hard to tell if you are in a course and just rounded a ball...

Or free skiing, first instincts say you are narrow from the posistion of the froth and turn but i dunno from that pic.

What do you run in the course?

This pic was free skiing 28off 32mph.

I just ran the course for the first time this memorial weekend. and ran 22 first time out 5 times in a row. all at 30mph. Next time I'll bump the speed and see where I end up.

rodltg2
06-08-2006, 04:48 PM
you're definately cranking it hard..
maybe start with back arm pressure to bring the handle down.second bend the rear knee forward while pushing the forward knee forward to get that ski tip down. and last get the hips up..

you can start at any length you want , but you may want think about trying 32mph at 15. once you get to 34.2 or 36 then start shortning. imho , starting at 22 may help develop bad habits such as short pulling..

in no expert but i over hear and wathc alot of skiing at the ski site

east tx skier
06-08-2006, 05:11 PM
Rod, when I'm behind the boat, I always get confused over which is the back arm (or down arm). In the picture, for his cut to 2 ball (let's say), is his back/down arm his left arm?

BuoyChaser
06-08-2006, 05:44 PM
Rod, when I'm behind the boat, I always get confused over which is the back arm (or down arm). In the picture, for his cut to 2 ball (let's say), is his back/down arm his left arm?
EAST - back arm would be his right arm, or the arm that isn't leading...giving the back pressure helps rotate the hips more and by keeping the shoulders square need as much back pressure and you can give out of the turn to the wake...

Brent
06-08-2006, 05:49 PM
The hips forward & knee's bent Can be had buy concentrating on keeping your elbow's touching your vest (well at least the hips forward part)!

The Back arm the is one furthest from the boat . The purpose of applying back arm pressure is to get you wide & early to the ball (best angle). back arm pressure is used after crossing the wakes & should not be confused with pulling long (it is keeping tension on the rope & trying to capitalize on the release from your pull to keep the ground gained in the course. Aleast that is the way I understand it!

BuoyChaser
06-08-2006, 06:02 PM
The hips forward & knee's bent Can be had buy concentrating on keeping your elbow's touching your vest (well at least the hips forward part)!

The Back arm the is one furthest from the boat . The purpose of applying back arm pressure is to get you wide & early to the ball (best angle). back arm pressure is used after crossing the wakes & should not be confused with pulling long (it is keeping tension on the rope & trying to capitalize on the release from your pull to keep the ground gained in the course. Aleast that is the way I understand it!
Brent - you're right, it would be Skier's LEFT ARM...

#47of100TeamMC
06-09-2006, 12:25 PM
so by talking "back arm pressue" basically just the majority of the tension is focus on the trailing arm? (right going to the left... and left going to the right?)


It's amazing how different you look on a picture than you feel while skiing, I feel i had adequate knee bend... but obviously by the pic and the comments I could definately stand to bend them quite a bit more.

Thanks guys! I need a good coach... or 7...:D

east tx skier
06-09-2006, 12:47 PM
EAST - back arm would be his right arm, or the arm that isn't leading...giving the back pressure helps rotate the hips more and by keeping the shoulders square need as much back pressure and you can give out of the turn to the wake...

Makes perfect sense. Thanks.

88 PS190
06-09-2006, 01:04 PM
You guys are confusing... I'll give you that.

ETS quoted bouychaser on the one that bouychaser then corrected himself on?

In the picture it is the Skier's LEFT arm as bouychaser corrected himself on. And it is the arm that if you got into an old school lean would be away from the boat.

Ric
06-09-2006, 01:10 PM
You guys are confusing... I'll give you that.

ETS quoted bouychaser on the one that bouychaser then corrected himself on?

In the picture it is the Skier's LEFT arm as bouychaser corrected himself on. And it is the arm that if you got into an old school lean would be away from the boat.

VERY confusing
so I now have the arm in the pic correct, what was it that I was supposed to do with that arm again?

tex
06-09-2006, 01:12 PM
This pic was free skiing 28off 32mph.

I just ran the course for the first time this memorial weekend. and ran 22 first time out 5 times in a row. all at 30mph. Next time I'll bump the speed and see where I end up.

1st time on the course and ran 22 5 times in a row. If that is true, we will be asking you for advice by the end of the summer! Great job! :toast:

MarkP
06-09-2006, 01:19 PM
VERY confusing
so I now have the arm in the pic correct, what was it that I was supposed to do with that arm again?
Left arm is on the left side! The right arm is on the right side!!! Keep them that way.

Ric
06-09-2006, 01:22 PM
hell that's easy :D

#47of100TeamMC
06-09-2006, 02:13 PM
1st time on the course and ran 22 5 times in a row. If that is true, we will be asking you for advice by the end of the summer! Great job! :toast:

The first set was 15'off and that was really simple I think I ran that 3 times... then next time in the water was 22' off and it was just before we were going to pull the course and head home... so I just stayed up until I either I fell or I couldn't hang on anymore... ended up being 5 times through and I said enough. BUT like was stated... I should have up'd the speed instead of shortening... but My brother was driving and he wanted to see shorter line length. so when I jumped in... the rope got shortened.

east tx skier
06-09-2006, 02:32 PM
You guys are confusing... I'll give you that.

ETS quoted bouychaser on the one that bouychaser then corrected himself on?

In the picture it is the Skier's LEFT arm as bouychaser corrected himself on. And it is the arm that if you got into an old school lean would be away from the boat.


So if my ski is pointing to the left (as if I'm heading for the two ball), then I want pressure on my left arm. That's what I initially thought, but then corrected myself and now presumably will again. Or was I right all along.

88 PS190
06-09-2006, 02:49 PM
That sounds correct ETxS if you were to pull on the other arm it'd feel all wrong, the back arm provides good resistance as it can be straight and back, and just hang there holding pressure w/o as much work.

BeavenX5
06-09-2006, 03:02 PM
This thread is such good reading. This is defenitely part of what make team talk so great.
I did not get much time in the water yet this year but here are 2 pics from last year. It was my first year in the course 31-32 MPH 15'off.
Any advices to improve my form?
I already got the handle grip thing from the other post and will change is as soon as tomorrow.
Thanks.

BeavenX5
06-09-2006, 03:03 PM
Here is another one from last year.

shepherd
06-10-2006, 12:18 AM
From the Marcus Brown web page:
In the past, slalom skiing and coaching has entailed telling someone to "get their hips up and shoulders back"
That sure brings back memories of ski school where the instructor would always yell at us to "get your hips up!" That got to be kind of our motto on the river afterwards. I'll say that it did help me as a beginner get my ski on edge better for the pull through the wakes. But, I'm going to start concentrating on the center of mass idea like Marcus teaches.

I noticed in the Marcus videos that the skiers seem to lead with their hips when they transition from the turn into the pull (and keep their shoulders square to the boat). The way I've been doing it, I think I lead with my shoulders and kick my hip up toward the handle to get into the "old school" pull position when I'm coming out of the turn.

Man, this is going to take some work... old dog you know... :cool:

1,000th post and what better way to celebrate than talk about my new skiing style :headbang:
Today I changed my grip and started skiing with shoulders square and thinking about my center of mass. It actually felt good, though my performance was set back a little. I think it will help a lot in the long run. Changing the grip wasn't as hard as I feared, but I've been practicing with the handle at home and in the office all week so it seemed natural to me.

Thanks for all the advice guys, especially buoychaser and 88 ps190.

I am now officially a "Devotee" :wavey:

88 PS190
06-10-2006, 03:55 AM
i think this thread pushed me above 1000 as well.

irony!

Ric
06-10-2006, 09:41 AM
ok let me ask again, shoulders "square" to the boat means an attempt to keep the shoulders parallel to the stern of the boat? or perpendicular? I am thinking that it's parallel but whaddo I know

shepherd
06-10-2006, 09:45 AM
ok let me ask again, shoulders "square" to the boat means an attempt to keep the shoulders parallel to the stern of the boat? or perpendicular? I am thinking that it's parallel but whaddo I know

Parallel to the stern of the boat, like you're standing behind the boat and facing it. If you're nipples were guns like the fembots had on Austin Powers, and you wanted to shoot the boat driver, your shoulders would have to be "square"... :)

Ric
06-10-2006, 09:48 AM
ok how do I do that and "keep the back arm back"? seems like to mimick marcus' pull in that pic, I'd need to keep my right arm back in order to keep my shoulders square, no?

88 PS190
06-10-2006, 11:17 AM
There are two issues here,

The turn, and then the edge.

In the turn there are things that people write or say such as countering etc. that relate to having the shoulders square to the boat. Through the wake crossing you don't need as exaggerated of a rotation, ie if you compare marcus who appears to have his back arm back compared to most other skiers you'll see that he's indeed more open to the boat, not that he is 100% open, he's just open enough to be efficient.

Ric
06-10-2006, 11:21 AM
ok cause at my desk chair I'm trying to envision having good outbound ski angle or crosscourse angle of the ski but still have shoulders square... It makes sense that the point is to get away from that old school lean (which I defninitely do)

I was working on getting wider for each ball at 15off on thursday nite and it seemed to help me alot

I guess I've gotten into a rut of pulling just enough to setup for the turn at 15off instead of trying to get wide. I am always late by midcourse because of it

André
06-10-2006, 11:26 AM
There are two issues here,

The turn, and then the edge.

In the turn there are things that people write or say such as countering etc. that relate to having the shoulders square to the boat. Through the wake crossing you don't need as exaggerated of a rotation, ie if you compare marcus who appears to have his back arm back compared to most other skiers you'll see that he's indeed more open to the boat, not that he is 100% open, he's just open enough to be efficient.
Can you post the link again for Marcus? My dial up squirrel is tired of spinning his wheel...Thanks!
I have been opening my shoulders more to the boat for the last 2 seasons and have found to be faster and more stable through the wakes.But initiating the turn with the hips is still a mystery to me...

Ric
06-10-2006, 12:06 PM
http://www.iwsfranking.com/skierinfo/info/infoimages/MarcusBROWNDubna2.jpg

marcus brown through the wakes, notice that his hips are forwards but are also rotated forwards, it doesn't appear that he is "sitting"

go and watch the video... everyone. @ .

88 PS190
06-10-2006, 12:38 PM
The shoulders are only a gateway to the hips. You cannot rotate your hips forwards and move your center of mass unless your upper body/shoulders rotate.

That's the reasoning behind the shoulders. beyond that its the hips we're talking about

moving the upper body w/o the lower does nothing.

Brent
06-10-2006, 02:32 PM
Check out Bruce's post! Talking about elbow's to the vest.

http://p079.ezboard.com/fslalomtweakersfrm8.showMessage?topicID=49.topic

BeavenX5
07-13-2007, 12:25 PM
Where did all the pictures from this thread go?

This was a very good thread that I would like to be able to go back to for reference...

Can TTADMIN Fix it or am I the only one that can't see the pictures anymore?

Flatwaterfooter
07-13-2007, 12:30 PM
I can see the pictures

BeavenX5
07-13-2007, 01:09 PM
??????????????? Yes I can see them also now ?????

Was I blind earlier, or was it simply that they didn't download completely?

Sorry for the confusion...:confused:

JC

randyb
07-26-2007, 01:23 AM
I was wondering where the picture were myself. I'm getting none of them.

shepherd
01-11-2008, 12:53 PM
Where did all the pictures from this thread go?

This was a very good thread that I would like to be able to go back to for reference...

Can TTADMIN Fix it or am I the only one that can't see the pictures anymore?

I can't see any pics either. Here's one I found while going through some old stuff. From last summer:

FIX MY FORM! :o

tex
01-11-2008, 01:09 PM
I can't see any pics either. Here's one I found while going through some old stuff. From last summer:

FIX MY FORM! :o
Hips up!.....

shepherd
01-11-2008, 01:14 PM
Don't you mean "bottoms up"??? :friday:

shepherd
01-11-2008, 02:51 PM
Hips up!.....

I know. Actually, I need to get the handle down!

BEND YOUR KNEES! BEND YOUR KNEES!

André
01-11-2008, 04:05 PM
I know. Actually, I need to get the handle down!

...and close to you after the second wake!
In his video,Mapple says something like..."The difference between a good skier and a great skier is how close to their body they can keep the handle after the second wake..."
Easier said then done!:)

shepherd
01-11-2008, 04:34 PM
That sounds like a good piece of advice. I'll try to think about that next time I go out. Thanks Andre.

mrprostar
10-06-2008, 09:06 AM
I got a lot better this year, but still need a lot of work. Don't be shy. Thanks in advance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwU10J9A8AI

88 PS190
10-06-2008, 01:49 PM
I got a lot better this year, but still need a lot of work. Don't be shy. Thanks in advance.

You aren't really holding an edge through the wakes. That's going to be the biggest thing to getting your skiing really moving. Because you don't edge straight through you end up pulling out after the wake and get slack in the turn at which point you pull your arms into you are pulling your arms into your chest then getting pulled forwards.

Because you are pulling after the wake it looks like your hardest edge is happening just before your turn, when in reality you should just be riding out the momentum and allowing it to carry you into the turn. Because you are pulling hardest just prior to your turn you are getting this slack which then pulls you forwards onto your front foot and off your edge. Cycle repeats.

What I would practice in that posistion is to pull out to the left far, further than you think necessary because that's probably how wide you should be. Set your edge, keep your hips up and don't pull your hands into your body, and ride that through the wakes, after the second wake keep the handle by your inside hip and you'll ride wide. After that cut keep turning, try for six turns.

If its hard to make the turns happen do that same drill from both sides. then work up the ability to link them together. But regardless avoid pulling after the second wake, its self defeating.

sk8salomon
10-06-2008, 10:28 PM
^good advice by 88PS190

you are not in the best "strong position" for slalom. I always keep an old handle in my truck so when i'm bored, i'll practice land drills. basically, get into your slalom position but relax your arms and let them straighten out. In the video, your body is in a "C" shape which is not good for wake crossing. as soon as your ski hits the wake, your upper body comes over the front of your ski. Try to think of this strong position as an "I" shape where one end is your ski and the other is your head.

Oh, BTW, you need a hitch ball or something to tie your handle to for the land drills.

C36
11-26-2008, 04:52 PM
Click here (http://www.mediafire.com/?ntg2yjnzymz) to view a sample video from the summer past (30 mph in 4 ball course). After watching this one (and others) a few times (after the boat was pulled out for the season) I began to think:
I am not pulling long enough (I should be pulling through and past the second wake); and


I need to increase the intensity (lower the handle to my waist).

Are these even close? All (constructive ;))comments are welcome. Thanks in advance.

UPDATE ON 2008 SEASON GOALS

Equipment goals :)
help reserect the course from the bottom of our lake CHECK
install speed control system on our boat - PP StarGazer Wakeboard Edition CHECK

Operational goals :)
get out to local slalom club here a few times in early summer CHECK
take a few more lessons CHECK

Course Goal :o
6 balls, 15 off @ 32 mph NOPE, PB = 2 balls, 15 off @ 30 mph (too many bad habits to overcome in one season I guess - but I'm working on it)

Brent
11-27-2008, 09:35 PM
As long as you have a big smile on your face after each set,you are doing OK in my books!:D

C36
11-28-2008, 04:26 PM
As long as you have a big smile on your face after each set,you are doing OK in my books!:D

Brent: Thanks for the comment. :) I tried to keep telling myself that, "just have fun with it" (especially toward the end of the summer). But I have to admit falling short of your goals can become frustrating at times (if you let it). I was just hoping someone might see something painfully obvious to them that I just haven't picked up yet. Thanks again for putting things in perspective.

Ryan
09-12-2009, 09:42 PM
Ok guys, I am at a point of frustration this season. I can't seem to get the ski out in front of me as fast as I can on my off side. I dug through and luckily found a pic where I think the problem is...right as/before I make the turn. I know I can do better to get my hips forward, maybe bend my knees a little more and that helps a little.

Right now I need one or two tricks to speed up the turn. About every third turn I get spray in the face which makes me think I'm doing a bit of a wheelie. I'm trying to learn the course, but I have trouble getting to ball 3 with enough efficiency to continue on the course. As it stands now, I barely make it to 3 with no hope of getting around in time since I'm coming around 2 so slow.

I've also been free skiing for a while to try new tricks and prevent frustration. Thoughts?

woftam
09-13-2009, 01:47 PM
You have a feel for the rhythm the course requires.
Ski outside of a course to improve your form while approximating the rhythm of course skiing.
Once you've gotten some of the bugs worked out, return to the course and see if you can put your improved form into practice.

sk8salomon
09-13-2009, 02:33 PM
Ryan,

From that picture it looks like you have too much weight on your back foot. Getting balanced on your ski is of course a little tougher on your offside. It is very common to either plow the ski with your back foot like you pictured or to go over the front of the ski due to breaking at the waist. Here's a pic of Jamie B where it shows a more balanced position past the 2nd wake as you set up for the turn. Getting spray in the face is probably from being rocked back on your ski too much. Being more centered or evenly balanced on your ski lets the ski find the sweet spot and carves turns much more fluid. Of course, it never hurts to let a more experienced person dial in your ski to help a frustrated offside turn. Believe me, we have all been there. I like to practice land drills with a handle and try to put more weight on my front foot. Good luck.

CantRepeat
09-15-2009, 11:02 AM
I have no form and too much slack line. :D

Jorski
09-15-2009, 11:06 AM
Hey Ryan,

It may be that your problem with your turns is that you are focussing on your turns.

Here is what I mean:

Often, when we free ski and are working on things we are concerned with "the big turn" or "how low we get our shoulder" or "how big is our spray" etc.

A good turn is the by product of a good pull - which creates the necessary speed; followed by a good pre-turn -on, ski on edge, skiing out wide etc.

Great turns will happen almost automatically when those things happen. A wise teacher once told me: "station wagon turns and Ferrari pulls"...it is sound advice.

You didn't post a picture of your pull behind the boat, but, that is usually the most under-developed skill among skiers who are struggling with their turns.

Drills that help are:

Pull outs, from either side of the wake, hips to handle and more of a whole body lean than a pull from the arms.

Rope tied to a tree or post...practice a strong body position. Shoulders level etc

Stop worrying about the turns, and try to generate speed across the wakes.

Use your eyes...look where you want to go! So many skiers look all over the place as opposed to other side.

Finally...good turn or bad turn...finish with you hips to the handle and make sure that you have finished the turn before pulling. If you start pulling before the ski finishes the turn (with the tip pointed towards the wake) you will lose angle and ski very narrow.


Most importantly...take lessons and take video of your skiing. Often it feels like we are doing something exactly as the instructor advised and yet when we see it on video, well, not so much.

mrprostar
09-06-2011, 10:55 AM
Its time to revive this threat after two years. I have posted here before and have received some great advice, now I need more. I dont have access to a course so I'm trying to make free skiing the most fun and still challenge myself to get the best course like turns and speed across the wake. This season I have improved significantly on speed across the wake but after watching some video of myself realized that my form still sucks. I ski at 28 off at 36 mph, just because its fun to go fast. I was working on my form this last weekend trying to get my body more parallel to the water and get my back closer to the water. I keep picturing the Marcus Brown picture from earlier in this thread as reference. Well I think I'm succeeding by my ski keeps coming out of the water as I cross the wake resulting in some very violent crashes. I'm getting tons of speed but as soon as the ski comes out of the water all the pressure I have on the ski makes me turn around and I hit the water like never before. I lost my ski each time this happened, which is really rare for me. What am I doing wrong to let my ski come out of the water? It seems logically that the more parallel I get the less I can keep my ski in the water. I have a PS 205 and the wake is pretty flat so I its not like I am hitting a ramp, but sometimes it feels like it.

ntidsl
09-06-2011, 11:25 AM
Hard to tell without video and or pic but you may want to soften your knees a bit...I always ski better when i am repeating in my head, knees bent, hips up, elbows at my side, look down course (even though I'm not on a course).

mrprostar
09-06-2011, 11:40 AM
Thanks for the help. This is where I'm hung up. Watching myself on video I have a good turn and great pull but going across the wake I ball up and loss my speed. I was trying to hold the pull position through the wakes instead of bracing for impact. I'm thinking I need to soften my knees and get the handle down?

ntidsl
09-06-2011, 12:00 PM
That's funny you mention. Iook my nephew out this weekend and he was bracing for impact and i told him to ignore the wake...its not there. I was wrong...dude...I thought I killed him. We weren't behind my boat and I forgot that.

I don't feel my wake at all...I don't even consider it...maybe lighten your load a bit in your boat when you ski. A flat ski will pop...a slicing ski will slice thru the wake. bend your knees and slice thru the wake...don't brace for impact..there will be none.

shepherd
09-07-2011, 06:24 PM
I agree with ntidsl. If you concentrate on good body position, and hold that position across the wakes, you shouldn't even notice the wake. You've probably read and heard it several times: shoulders back, hips up towards the handle, knees slightly bent, center elbows in... I almost never get tripped up at the wake as long as I maintain a reasonable skiing position. My wipeouts always seem to happen at the ball. The only time I ever crash at the wake is because I haven't been able to get into good position coming out of my turn and I hit the wake all out of shape (e.g., leaning too far forward, bent at the waist).

I've posted this link somewhere else. I think this guy gives a good description of proper body position (IMO). It helped me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzMBIVkQDMU

aswinter05
08-14-2012, 03:43 PM
Last post to this thread was 1 year ago??? It's time to bring this one back to life. There are too many intermediate skiers like myself out there that need some serious help with their form! :)

Just went out for a morning ski yesterday and took some video. I've been having a lot of trouble bending at the waist and the video shows it. I could use some help from you hot-shots out there. Keep in mind, this is only my second year skiing.

Also, I'm currently skiing an HO Triumph. Does it look like I should stick with that ski or could I move on to a more advanced ski? Thank you for the helpful insight!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYqSTjaX76w

TxsRiverRat
08-14-2012, 03:55 PM
Last post to this thread was 1 year ago??? It's time to bring this one back to life. There are too many intermediate skiers like myself out there that need some serious help with their form! :)

Just went out for a morning ski yesterday and took some video. I've been having a lot of trouble bending at the waist and the video shows it. I could use some help from you hot-shots out there. Keep in mind, this is only my second year skiing.

Also, I'm currently skiing an HO Triumph. Does it look like I should stick with that ski or could I move on to a more advanced ski? Thank you for the helpful insight!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYqSTjaX76w

1. Stay on that ski – you are not skiing beyond it’s limits

2. You are riding across the wake flat. You need to get it on edge.

3. Your arms are bent. Straighten them out. Put your handle to your hips and your hips to the handle.

4. On your offside cut, keep your knees pointed across and your shoulders twisted at the boat – look at the pylon as help. Yours eyes are directing your path... That means you’d be skiing TO the buoy, when you need to ski 20+ feet earlier, and you’re very narrow.

5. Get the knees more bent, so u have more weight on the front of the ski – you’re tail riding it.

Hope that helps

MC

russlars
08-14-2012, 05:08 PM
Last post to this thread was 1 year ago??? It's time to bring this one back to life. There are too many intermediate skiers like myself out there that need some serious help with their form! :)

Just went out for a morning ski yesterday and took some video. I've been having a lot of trouble bending at the waist and the video shows it. I could use some help from you hot-shots out there. Keep in mind, this is only my second year skiing.

Also, I'm currently skiing an HO Triumph. Does it look like I should stick with that ski or could I move on to a more advanced ski? Thank you for the helpful insight!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYqSTjaX76w
Invest in Perfect Pass so you won't have to give those hand signals for your ideal speed. It will be the best money spent on your boat.

aswinter05
08-14-2012, 05:49 PM
Invest in Perfect Pass so you won't have to give those hand signals for your ideal speed. It will be the best money spent on your boat.

Boat has perfect pass. Forgot to instruct my dad to turn it on while in neutral before my run :rolleyes:

aswinter05
08-16-2012, 10:20 AM
1. Stay on that ski – you are not skiing beyond it’s limits

2. You are riding across the wake flat. You need to get it on edge.

3. Your arms are bent. Straighten them out. Put your handle to your hips and your hips to the handle.

4. On your offside cut, keep your knees pointed across and your shoulders twisted at the boat – look at the pylon as help. Yours eyes are directing your path... That means you’d be skiing TO the buoy, when you need to ski 20+ feet earlier, and you’re very narrow.

5. Get the knees more bent, so u have more weight on the front of the ski – you’re tail riding it.

Hope that helps

MC

Thank you for the pointers. Should be heading out for another ski at some point this weekend. Hopefully I can get some more video as I try to improve upon those tips.

Anyone want to come out to Brookville Lake and teach my wife and I how to improve our form? lol I'll provide gas, dinner, and beer!!

mikeg205
08-16-2012, 10:56 AM
Darn you're so far away... +1 on the pointers you have... What I did to get myself on edge is to ski slower and just make rhythmic crosses thru the wake... pull yourself thru the wake like you do when outside the wake. This year I have been practicing pulling thru the wake.. my video below shows me putting the brakes on many times before getting to the wake.. you'll know when you do it right.. the acceleration will drive you out far enough catch a buoy...practice..practice.. I was out yesterday and now am 50% on not putting on the brakes as I approach the wake... I ski both an HO 2010 Triumph and a 2012 Coefficient X SL. Getting that rope down to the hips really helps when I do it. It feels great when you do it right..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EXA14nIh_M - 34mph 22off.

TxsRiverRat
08-16-2012, 11:38 AM
Darn you're so far away... +1 on the pointers you have... What I did to get myself on edge is to ski slower and just make rhythmic crosses thru the wake... pull yourself thru the wake like you do when outside the wake. This year I have been practicing pulling thru the wake.. my video below shows me putting the brakes on many times before getting to the wake.. you'll know when you do it right.. the acceleration will drive you out far enough catch a buoy...practice..practice.. I was out yesterday and now am 50% on not putting on the brakes as I approach the wake... I ski both an HO 2010 Triumph and a 2012 Coefficient X SL. Getting that rope down to the hips really helps when I do it. It feels great when you do it right..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EXA14nIh_M - 34mph 22off.

I'm no expert by any means, but how can you gain any consistency skiing on two different skis? I’d think that would be like using the same love making techniques on two different chicks... lol

So looking at your video, you also are very narrow and flat, and straight legged..

What I would ask you to try is to:

1. Pull out to the left and get as far up on the side of the boat as possible
2. As you get to that peak width, switch edges and cut the ski as perpendicular to the wake as you can
3. Do not let off that edge until you’ve crossed the 2nd wash on the right side of the wake
4. After you cross the 2nd wash, you switch edges again and start the preturn, then go back the other direction

I would also recommend that you lengthen the rope back out to 15 off, and slow the boat down to about 30 MPH. You need to be doing the work behind the boat and not relying on the speed of the boat to give you the feeling of speed. If you’re doing all of the above, you will be skiing faster at 30, then you currently are at 34.

Here is an early video I just uploaded of me in the course, before my elbow injury re-surfaced. I have some more that a buddy took subsequent to this, just not in my possession yet.

You can see that as wide as I was, I am still very narrow and the 22 and 28 passes would have been impossible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3byFawzFsw&sns=em

mikeg205
08-16-2012, 12:06 PM
Yup...yup...that's all the stuff I work on. I use the 2 skis for more time on the water. The Triumph is like riding a raft. As I get fatigued I can still ride and feel comfortable Triumph. I ride 22 off from coaching I am getting from a friend who rips it. Every time he makes his turns you can literally hear the water splash against his back leg.

This is my second full season slaloming finally 100% on deep water starts - last year I was still only 50% and wiping out on my back thru the wake. I am staying narrow for now to work on edge to edge turns. For example when I went out yesterday all I did was go from edge to edge from each side of the wake.

I get the form and the pull thru the wake and the few times I get it right.... and sail way wide to reach a bouy.....just not consistent yet...

If I only had more time to practice... :D darn work gets in the way.

Practice...practice....practice...drill...drill... drill and as much time on the water as possible....

Thanks... for the coaching..

TxsRiverRat
08-16-2012, 12:29 PM
No problem, happy to try n help.

I have the same boat as you, only a 93 model. Your boat, like mine, had a bump at 22 off. When I am on edge, the bump does not bother me, but if I come off my pull or go through narrow, that bump is punishing to say the least. Your boats wake is good at 15 off, sucks at 22 off, and get sweet again at 28 off. Nothing you can do about it.

But I still suggest for you to go back to 15 off, and work on a super wide left pull out and cut the wake “balls to the wall” as hard and fast as you can. Right now, it does not look like you are breaking free of the boat, so the boat is making the turn for you.

jamisonsbrodie
08-16-2012, 01:42 PM
No problem, happy to try n help.

, it does not look like you are breaking free of the boat, so the boat is making the turn for you.

Great tip! Don't be so hesitant on your turns and hold that turn. You are doing the dreaded double pump...Edging in, then standing up to cross the wake, then edging again which loads the rope at the wrong time. Get your shoulders back and hold that pull'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't be afraid of the wake, yours doesn't have much bite. I agree with Txs' slow the boat down. Practice leaning with your shoulders back by edging out hard and holding it all the way down the course/lake. Repeat on the other side. Work on getting your shoulders back and having more of a stacked position during this drill. Then try doing that same position by starting from a wide position and edge from side to side like a pendulum, pauseing at each point of max width.

mikeg205
08-16-2012, 03:15 PM
Thanks all for the tips... the body is willing and I think the mind...just need to practice practice practice... this will be a good week - out 3 times.... Balls to the wall - I like that...for some reason my kohones shrink as my acceleration increases..lol...

Having so much fun learning more...

Okay..I promise balls to the wall this Sunday..... No Fear!!! Hooohaaaa!!!! I will try to get someone to run some video....

ntidsl
08-28-2012, 12:19 PM
Not my best run my any means...breaking at hips...not enough angle but will say this was my 3rd long run of the am and I was just enjoying the nice morning...BUT...YOU HAVE TO LOVE MY WIFE FOR THE LACK OF POWERTURN...the reason I am posting. I will take any advice though!!!

Also 8 year old doing the vidoetaping!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FaeBjminoA&feature=g-upl

madcityskier
08-31-2012, 01:54 AM
Your turns are lost behind the flag and the pylon, my best advice right off the bat is to try to keep your shoulder from coming forward off the wake, and to try to initiate with your hips rather than your shoulders. Try dropping and turning your hips to start your pull out and transition rather than moving your upper body. This being said, you're at a level of skiing that will require the old school (shoulders low, look and leand, hips to the handle) and what I've been seeing more of lately (shoulders up, hips low to the wake). I've been working on getting the hips low to the water and letting my shoulders say up. Very unnatural for me, but I seem to be getting the angle with much less stress on my back. Definately watch those shoulders off the wake though. It's getting you forward and slowing your ski, which will cause you to be narrow and kill your angle out of the next turn.

ntidsl
08-31-2012, 11:52 AM
Thanks Mad...I noticed my shoulders...hopefully I'll get a set in this weekend, roll those shoulders back and get that handle in at my hips. Videotaping needs to happen weekly for me.