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View Full Version : Why buy a 209, and not a Malibu LXi/Xti


LXIONE
05-04-2005, 04:25 PM
Hello everyone,
I'm interested in a new boat.
As a happy Malibu and previous MC owner this would be more easy last year.
I would have chosen for the 2004 Sunsetter Lxi.
Now things have changed. The new sunsetter is much bigger and heavier!!!!
I would like a family boat that is still great for skiing and some barefooting.
Over here, there is little change to test the boats.
Tell me what you like or dislike about the 209.
I already tested a MC 190 with the MCX engine.
It felt slower out of the hole than a Response Lxi with the Monsoon 340.
Will the 209 need the power slot to compensate this?

rodltg2
05-04-2005, 04:36 PM
i know the malibu response hole shot is better than any other . take a look at the 197 w/ powerslot and lq9. theres some power!

G-man
05-04-2005, 04:39 PM
I would look at the 197 w/powerslot also if your dealer is one of the good ones. I have been in several 209's that porposed at speed. They don't handle as well as the 197.

Stritt
05-04-2005, 04:59 PM
209 and porpoising should not be a problem now. I had a early 2003 209 and it porpoised pretty bad. The dealer put some hook into the rear and all was better. Later I heard that the molds were changed to include the hook during layup.

197 with 310 HP w/slot is not much off the pace with a 385HP slot. My buddy has a 02 TT with 310 slot, I barely beat him off the line, now mid power is a whole different story! Top speed for my 385 is around 48-49.

peason
05-04-2005, 05:16 PM
I have the basic 310 HP Predator in my 209 - it serves me just fine. I too like to Barefoot occasionally and it can porpoise at top end if you hit some rollers, but who cares especially when I am riding high out back. I also have the tower, which makes this an outstanding all around boat. There is a ton of room in the interior. You can get the MCX engine which I believe pumps out 350 HP.
There are a few others on the board with 209's - Dan C. would be a good reference too.

east tx skier
05-04-2005, 05:18 PM
Is 385 hp the highest MC offers? I'm no footer, but they tend to like the speed. 48 mph sounds like plenty, but I wouldn't know. One thing I've noticed about the M'Bus (or I should say read about them) is that they have rather high top ends.

peason
05-04-2005, 05:20 PM
I think my boat tops out at 43-44 - I weigh 225 and this is plenty of top end for me. I dont' do a lot of fancy things like 1-foot which I believe you need more speed.

AirJunky
05-04-2005, 05:22 PM
it can porpoise at top end if you hit some rollers, but who cares especially when I am riding high out back.
Kind of sucks when you are setting up to bust a big front flip, big jump & the rope goes slack in your hand.
Or even better, just do a big wake jump & the rope pulls you out the front!
Either way, it's a nice face plant, courtesy of a porpoising boat! :uglyhamme

east tx skier
05-04-2005, 05:29 PM
I've been made to understand that the Response has less wetted surface than our boats do, which supposedly accounts for the higher top end.

Not to hijack the thread too much, but is the advantage of more wetted surface strictly better tracking, or do you get a softer wake out of the equation. From the pictures, the wakes on the newer MC's appear to have a wider wake table than older boats like mine.

peason
05-04-2005, 05:37 PM
Kind of sucks when you are setting up to bust a big front flip, big jump & the rope goes slack in your hand.
Or even better, just do a big wake jump & the rope pulls you out the front!
Either way, it's a nice face plant, courtesy of a porpoising boat! :uglyhamme

AirJunky - are doing these tricks while barefooting? If the driver backs off the speed just a bit it helps - but I yell at my wife enough, I don't want to get a divorce over driving. She does a great job 99% of the time. Also- my boat is getting a new hull, so I hope I get the '05 mold!

SteveO
05-04-2005, 05:52 PM
LXI, Welcome to the board. You have some great points in your questions. While I am biased, the 209 is still AWSA 3 event approved, much like the 197 and the Response LXI. I seriously considered the Response last year when I was looking because of its good ski wake and the opportunity to drop the wedge and quickly increase the wake size for boarding. The major downside to the response was its ride in rough water and tight quarters. I ski the course and wakeboard and found the overall size of the 209 to be more family friendly than the LXI. I picked mine up used and the dealer had the hook added for the original owner. If you’re main purpose is footing and skiing the course, and the number of people in the boat is not a factor, the 197 or Response LXI may be better suited for your needs. On the other hand if your day involves early morning or late PM cuts on glass, with a day of running around on the lake (surfing, wakeboarding and floating- partying) you better not call to many friends or know them all really well. Good luck on your pending decision.

AirJunky
05-04-2005, 06:03 PM
AirJunky - are doing these tricks while barefooting? If the driver backs off the speed just a bit it helps - but I yell at my wife enough, I don't want to get a divorce over driving. She does a great job 99% of the time. Also- my boat is getting a new hull, so I hope I get the '05 mold!
No, I'm not doing these while footing, but I have pulled guys who do. Plus I pull foilers, boarders & hot dog skiers who do. And when the boat won't settle down, then the tower doesn't settle down, and the handle doesn't settle down. I have a buddy with a '96 Maristar & that thing is bad about porpoising all the time. To say all you have to do is slow down a bit to help is just compensating for a poor design. Plus a boarder is only going 21 or 22 mph anyway, slow down & he's gonna faceplant.

Jim@BAWS
05-04-2005, 06:15 PM
LXIONE,
You need to COMPARE apples to apples not apples to oranges !!!

Yes your LXI costs about 2500-3500 less. with the same profit margins applied, and the SAME options including trailer options. Your loss comes when you trade in or RESELL. A Mastercraft will hold 20-30% more of its value at that point than a MALIBU. That more than makes up the front end cost on the boat.

A Malibu Response is a FASTER boat than a PS197. Lighter, less wetted surface area, different hull design. Compare that as to how the 197 is designed to adhere to the water vs. sit on top of the water like a RESPONSE. We are not making speed boats here.. we make skiboats. It is ALOT of fun to have great hole shot... there are some reasons as to why a MC is a little slower.

Not only does the WEDGE create a TREMENDOUS amount
of stress on the stern, when you have a design on the hull that lifts it in the DIAMOND SV23 hull. the lifting forces vs. the downward pressure on the stern from the wedge. They work againist each other. What kind of MORON decided that is a good idea.

The 209 / X-9 is a great combo. Plenty of power to do whatever you want. It has a great slalom wake along with great wakeboarding wakes.

Do not be fooled. MC is a better product. Malibu has some nice features. Look in places you are not susposed to look. The bildge, under the gunnels. Look at the loose wiring unloomed, hollow stringers that hold water, non foam filled cavaities, no backing plates on the tower. Plastic floors. The list goes on and on. don't be fooled by smoke and mirrors.

Swayed by Mastercraft... yes but for good reasons. don't settle for second best!!!

Jim @ BAWS

east tx skier
05-04-2005, 06:22 PM
I just reread his post. I know it seems he owns a response, but it looks like he is asking for benefits of the PS209 over the Sunsetter. I could be wrong.

Jim, are there other reasons for more wetted surface on the newer boats apart from improved tracking?

MYMC
05-04-2005, 07:24 PM
East, the amount of wetted surface is a function of the overall boat design. To be completely honest top speed is being held back more now by the "hook" in the transom...yep 2001s are faster. Yes, our boat is much heavier than theirs…why? Full length floor liner, floatation foam, through bolts, backing plates, nuts, etc and so on. All this represents two different means to an end…a competition slalom boat. Their wake may be narrower; however, when was the last time you were fighting to get to 4 ball and had time to even think about the wake?

Is one right and one wrong? That depends on your own personal definitions as either is capable of world record performance. Better questions to ask may be does resale matter more than top speed? Or what will this boat run and drive like with 1000 hours on it? Those are the questions I asked and you can plainly see where I stand. I have owned and skied all of them including a Malibu, some may be better at some things but when it came to the total package MasterCraft did the job the best and the NADA value guide proves it year after year. (IMHO)

JDK
05-04-2005, 07:24 PM
What kind of MORON decided that is a good idea.
Jim @ BAWS

The kind that wants to throw a big wake without carrying 2000 lbs. of ballast in the boat. How much stress does this add to the hull as compared to the wedge pulling down on the transom?

AirJunky
05-04-2005, 07:38 PM
Not only does the WEDGE create a TREMENDOUS amount of stress on the stern, when you have a design on the hull that lifts it in the DIAMOND SV23 hull. the lifting forces vs. the downward pressure on the stern from the wedge. They work againist each other. What kind of MORON decided that is a good idea.

I know that was a rhetorical question, but I couldn't resist........ who kind of moron? The same kind of moron who designed the ballast system being used in the new X Series boats. Kinda funny how that works, huh.

Jim@BAWS
05-04-2005, 08:59 PM
No...the idea of the wedge great in thought is NOT all it is cracked up to be. Think about it for a second. The faster you go the MORE pressure is placed on a 1 by 1 foot area in the stern of the boat. A tearing shearing stress not even direct pressure.(A STERN THAT IS CHOPPER GUN AND SOME LAID GLASS) Your fuel effiency greatly dimishes. I have seen the WEDGE in use behind a WAKESETTER. Throughs a HUGE rooster tail. Anyone who is anyone in WAKEBOARDING does not use the WEDGE because it distorts the wake and makes it steeper. 400-800 lbs of LIQUID ballast displaced over a MUCH larger area places much less stress on our hull . A MC hull is built to much more exactling standards than a MALIBU. There is a TIGHT tolerance in the final weight of our boats before it becomes a MASTERCRAFT.

My choice of words may not be the best...But so many so-called firsts from MALIBU have been invented years ago by MC (EX: SWIVEL PYLON, TUNABLE/ADJUSTABLE RUDDER just to name 2)

ASK MYMC about the Response LX that came in on trade with 350 hours. My gosh thought it was made in 1982 by the way it was put together.

Jim@BAWS

east tx skier
05-04-2005, 09:07 PM
MyMC, interesting about the hook. I am still curious, not so much from a MC v. 'Bu standard, but a newer MC versus older MC standard. Was the larger vee/more wetted surface strictly for better tracking or are there other benefits to it. Just b/w 94 and 95, everything just seems bigger.

JDK
05-04-2005, 09:21 PM
But so many so-called firsts from MALIBU have been invented years ago by MC (EX: SWIVEL PYLON, TUNABLE/ADJUSTABLE RUDDER just to name 2)
Jim@BAWS

Funny that Malibu has the patent on the swivel pylon (1990)
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r=11&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s2=merced.ASCI.&OS=AC/merced&RS=AC/merced

east tx skier
05-04-2005, 09:34 PM
Now you guys know how I hate to be the center of attention. But to be fair ...

MasterCraft Pylon Patent (1988) (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN%2F4893577)

BriEOD
05-04-2005, 09:49 PM
Get em' Doug!

east tx skier
05-04-2005, 10:00 PM
Hey, you know I'm not trying to be like that. Just sort of hard not to notice when the link to the MC patent was listed in the patent for the 'Bu swivel.

MYMC
05-05-2005, 10:19 AM
East, your question about the hull and size is answered in this thread by accident (or defense I guess): http://www.tmcowners.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=2644

The real reason for the "size" and hull shape is more room...used to be the biggest compaint about any slalom boat was that it was cramped. Even set-up in tournament form (driver, judge and rope changer) things were tight.

If you take about 200 pounds out of our boat the footprint is much smaller. This has been proposed before (in house) but no one wants to give up the build standard we utilize (i.e. foam filled hull, full length floor liner etc..) so we are left with a heavier boat as compared to some in the market.

In regards to the hook vs. speed issue remember the hook is forcing the bow down by lifting the transom up...not the most efficient way but it did take a good boat and make it a world beater.

east tx skier
05-05-2005, 11:40 AM
Thanks, MyMC. I hope you don't feel you defending the boat to me. I wasn't saying anything negative about them. If all goes according to plan, I'll finally get to ski a newer hull of MC this year. It was just a curiosity on my part. The only time I'm running mine wide open anyway is to check prop specs or just open it up. I don't foot; I don't board. I just need the ski boat characteristics.

/edit. Now I understand the "defense" thing. Just wanted to make sure it wasn't me.

LXIONE
05-05-2005, 11:46 AM
Here are some figures: found on the company sites

MC 190 : 19'8'' , 91'' , 2620lbs
CC 196 : 19'6'' , 91'' , 2570lbs
Mal Response:20', 90'',2450lbs

CC 206 : 19'6.5'', 91'', 2975lbs
MC 197 : 19'8'' , 91'' , 2800lbs
Mal R Rlxi: 20.5' , 93.5'' , 2800lbs

Mal SS Lxi/Xti: 21'5'', 98'', 3300lbs
CC 216 : 21'7.5'' , 91'', 3050lbs
MC 209 : 20'11.5'', 96'', 2850lbs

tex
05-05-2005, 11:51 AM
Thanks, MyMC. I hope you don't feel you defending the boat to me. I wasn't saying anything negative about them. If all goes according to plan, I'll finally get to ski a newer hull of MC this year. It was just a curiosity on my part. The only time I'm running mine wide open anyway is to check prop specs or just open it up. I don't foot; I don't board. I just need the ski boat characteristics.

/edit. Now I understand the "defense" thing. Just wanted to make sure it wasn't me.

Doug-You don't flat stick the toolman when you got him on the toob?

east tx skier
05-05-2005, 11:52 AM
Uh, what!???!

tex
05-05-2005, 11:55 AM
Doug-You don't flat stick the toolman when you got him on the toob?
you know...give him the berries...wow I never realized how dirty the expressions for going wide open sound!

east tx skier
05-05-2005, 11:58 AM
Ah, no. Rumors of my (tubing) death have been greatly exagerated.

/Also, WOT is about 7 o'clock on my throttle.

tex
05-05-2005, 11:59 AM
Ah, no. Rumors of my (tubing) death have been greatly exagerated.

/Also, WOT is about 7 o'clock on my throttle.
As Sammy once said-"Check the hands of the clock..it's 8:05, it's time to rock!"

MYMC
05-05-2005, 01:58 PM
East, sorry I wasn't clear...I didn't mean "defending" it to you...I meant defending the size in the other post.

skisix@38
05-05-2005, 02:19 PM
LXIONE,
You need to COMPARE apples to apples not apples to oranges !!!

Yes your LXI costs about 2500-3500 less. with the same profit margins applied, and the SAME options including trailer options. Your loss comes when you trade in or RESELL. A Mastercraft will hold 20-30% more of its value at that point than a MALIBU. That more than makes up the front end cost on the boat.

A Malibu Response is a FASTER boat than a PS197. Lighter, less wetted surface area, different hull design. Compare that as to how the 197 is designed to adhere to the water vs. sit on top of the water like a RESPONSE. We are not making speed boats here.. we make skiboats. It is ALOT of fun to have great hole shot... there are some reasons as to why a MC is a little slower.

Not only does the WEDGE create a TREMENDOUS amount
of stress on the stern, when you have a design on the hull that lifts it in the DIAMOND SV23 hull. the lifting forces vs. the downward pressure on the stern from the wedge. They work againist each other. What kind of MORON decided that is a good idea.

The 209 / X-9 is a great combo. Plenty of power to do whatever you want. It has a great slalom wake along with great wakeboarding wakes.

Do not be fooled. MC is a better product. Malibu has some nice features. Look in places you are not susposed to look. The bildge, under the gunnels. Look at the loose wiring unloomed, hollow stringers that hold water, non foam filled cavaities, no backing plates on the tower. Plastic floors. The list goes on and on. don't be fooled by smoke and mirrors.

Swayed by Mastercraft... yes but for good reasons. don't settle for second best!!!

Jim @ BAWS


The OP is asking about the differences of the 209 to the Sunsetter. You respond with something about the 197 and the RLXi. I will recognize that both the 197 and RLXi are capable of pulling good skiers through world record runs and that both boats are more than most people need in terms of performance. Beyond that it's up to whoever is putting the $$ down to decide "better". Spout out your sales pitches to "sway" in you direction. I understand that but, when you are so adament and quick in your defense, it left me and I'm sure others wondering what there is that you're hiding.

1. a heavier boat doesn't mean it tracks better. It just means that it has more water to push out of the way.
2. resale has a lot more to do with the condition the boat is kept that the stickers on the side.

Jim, do you also posses a engineering degree in materials and hydrodynamics on the side to qualify you as to design of 'bu's wedge?

I owned a '94 PS190 until '03 and I loved the boat and I love my new boat. It's guys like Jim that give your board a bad rap and why others, like me, lurk out there but don't join in your discussion.

MYMC
05-05-2005, 03:58 PM
Jim may have been over zealous in making his point; however, after viewing the attached photos I believe anyone with reasonable eyesight would question the use of "the wedge"...

Further, NADA takes condition into account in regards to value (there are categories) and so does the market. I can prove that MasterCraft is number one in retained resale value both in NADA, ABOS and reported private sales...regardless if they are clean or dirty.

Why would you lurk instead of joining in? Your suggestion that somehow because Jim posted what he believes (obviously he believes in the product enough to sign his name on the line and be a dealer with all the personal guarantees that involves) is specious at best. He is entitled to his opinion and so are you…being over zealous or a MC dealer does not automatically preclude you from having an opinion so why would you and “others” be offended? What about giving credit to the guy for being forthright in whom he is? How many dealers or manufacturers lurk, post and troll these type boards under false pretenses? Please tell me you didn’t join just to flame a guy…

east tx skier
05-05-2005, 04:12 PM
... a heavier boat doesn't mean it tracks better. It just means that it has more water to push out of the way.


Skisix, first of all, welcome. Always glad to have another voice on the forum. To be fair to these guys, I was the one that suggested that the larger wetted surface might have been an effort to get the early 90s Prostars to track a little straighter. I posed that statement largely as a question though. It seemed logical to me that if more wetted surface required more in the manner of horsepower to push the boat through the water, that if logically followed that a skier pulling a lot harder than I do would be less likely to pull it off the center line. While that may be more of an issue of holding the course versus tracking or steerability, I apologize if by my statement, I created some confusion.

I am by no means an authority on the subject of hydrodynamics although I have some past experience as a pilot and am somewhat familiar with how forces act on an object. If anything, I'm simply very interested in how all these boats compare, not because I'm in the market for one, but just because I find it interesting. With that, I am also interested in they how and why of hull changes. That's what prompted my question.

So, although Jim said a lot of things, if I remember correctly, he didn't say that. That mistatement of fact or misdiscription, whichever it may be (if it be either), was my doing.

Again, welcome to the fray. :wavey:

rodltg2
05-05-2005, 04:17 PM
your a pilot ? what do you fly?

FrankSchwab
05-05-2005, 04:19 PM
MyMC -
The pictures would be a bit more compelling if picture #2 didn't show the rudder bent at about a 30 degree angle, suggesting that the boat ran into something. What I took away from them is that running into underwater obstructions with the wedge down is a bad idea, and probably worse for the boat than running into underwater obstructions without a wedge.

This doesn't really address Jim's comments about the forces on the boat in normal operations, which frankly sounded a little bit silly.

/frank

east tx skier
05-05-2005, 04:27 PM
your a pilot ? what do you fly?

Haven't flown in years, but flew Cessna 172s for about four years before I ran out of time and money, both of which needed to go to college with me. Lots of happy times spent in the air. My dad logged over 10,000 hours as a private pilot and spent more than 20 years behind the stick of a Jet Commander before he hung it up in the early 80s.

What about you. I caught some pilot-like expressions in another post of yours a few days ago.

rodltg2
05-05-2005, 05:03 PM
c172 . bought a '73 172 a few years ago talk about a money pit. just forked out 4000 for the annual. thinking i will sell at the end of summer.

skisix@38
05-05-2005, 05:07 PM
East Tx, I'm not confused about anything you have posted, you post concisely. Most all of your posts are of genuine interest and curiosity.

MyMC- come on, get real. You post some pictures of a boat that was the victim of a tradgic accident or severe stupidity and it's "malibu's" fault for designing something poorly? For every picture you have of a 'bu's/CC's misfortune, they have one of a MC's misfortune. Point being that if any of these boats runs into something underwater chances are pretty good that the boat will loose! It's got nothing to do with a poor design.

And yes, this post put me over the edge so, I did sign up because of it. I used to be a regular member on the old board. Then Jim totally slammed me for picking out my 'bu over a MC. One of his 16 criteria on why I should've bought a new 197 was because I could do "dips"(an exercise of lifting ones body weight) on the windshield frame! This was so absurd to me that I had to go out and try it, especially before the warranty ran out. Well, my windshield didn't fall down or give in any way, much to my relief(LOL).

To your point about NADA values, that only is a general guide and while that book may say one thing when you are trying to sell a MC against a 'bu in the same condition the buyer will onyl rarely make a purchase decision based on the stickers that run down the side- I've been there.

Then MYMC flammed me becuase one of the boards members wanted a pic of the RLXi and I posted a pic of mine. So you screamt like a little girl to the moderator and had the thread erased. Does that ring a bell for anyone who's been on here over a year?

east tx skier
05-05-2005, 05:10 PM
Skisix, I knew your handle sounded familiar!

east tx skier
05-05-2005, 05:12 PM
c172 . bought a '73 172 a few years ago talk about a money pit. just forked out 4000 for the annual. thinking i will sell at the end of summer.

Yeah, I was renting them at the time. I remember an early 80s quote on what it cost my old man's company to keep that jet fueled. I'm not going to repeat it here, but needless to say, it's not the most affordable hobby out there. But there are no others like it.

rodltg2
05-05-2005, 05:19 PM
probably not a popular belief on this board , but i dont care about resale as much as to buy something versus another. so what if after years of enjoyment you lose a few bucks. whats the real difference between an mc and malibu after a few years anyway. i think resale value is a weak criteria for a buying decision.

BriEOD
05-05-2005, 05:21 PM
Then MYMC flammed me becuase one of the boards members wanted a pic of the RLXi and I posted a pic of mine. So you screamt like a little girl to the moderator and had the thread erased. Does that ring a bell for anyone who's been on here over a year?

I remember that. Huh, I also seem to remember a hornets nest getting stired up when we talked about CC having a nice product, coincidence?

Skisix nice to see you again man? You back in the water for the season yet?

east tx skier
05-05-2005, 05:22 PM
I wasn't the most informed buyer when I picked mine up. But just to chime in, it didn't factor into my decision one bit. I didn't even think about it. I tend to keep my toys for a long time though.

east tx skier
05-05-2005, 05:23 PM
I remember that. Huh, I also seem to remember a hornets nest getting stired up when we talked about CC having a nice product, coincidence?


Uh, guilty. That was mine. Where's MarkP's little whack-a-mole .gif when I need it.

rodltg2
05-05-2005, 05:27 PM
[QUOTE=skisix@38]One of his 16 criteria on why I should've bought a new 197 was because I could do "dips"(an exercise of lifting ones body weight) on the windshield frame! QUOTE]

i would not suggest doing this on a 90 brendella. i had to remount my windshield twice.

east tx skier
05-05-2005, 05:29 PM
My 93 windshield isn't sagging much, yet, but I might not try this one. Not a bad feature for a walk through/step over though. Why is it that people always are grabbing at the windshield or the mirror when they're going from the bow to the middle or vice versa. Grab something else, please. That stuff ain't for grabbin'!

rodltg2
05-05-2005, 05:33 PM
3 biggest pet peeves people do on my boat:

1. grabbing the windshield or mount to get up.
2. sitting on the top of the drivers seat.
3. eating sunflower seads.

skisix@38
05-05-2005, 05:37 PM
Yep, I been skiing since Feb. and almost everyweekend! We are up to almost 60 degree water again, mother nature decided to hold winter in April this year.

Just so all youse guys(any gals on the board?) don't think I'm an opionated a$$hole, you could hide your team MC cards in the drawer for a minute and wonder over to themalibucrew and see for yourselves that I gave the new TT boat a positive review about two weeks ago. I haven't driven it yet but I skied it and I like the new reduction drive and think it looks great. The wakes are a little harder(not bigger) then the bu or CC(I ski those boats regularly) but that's splitting hairs(I start at 32 and went through 38). I look forward to pulls behind the new TT197.

east tx skier
05-05-2005, 05:46 PM
No worries, Greg. I just joined TMC yesterday. I haven't received my card yet. I've got a few posts on the others boards, too. Not quite as many as I do here though. ;)

MYMC
05-05-2005, 06:04 PM
It's got nothing to do with a poor design.

You must be right...that is why Malibu redesigned it last year with soft pins that shear instead of tearing the transom off the boat...my bad.

To your point about NADA values, that only is a general guide and while that book may say one thing when you are trying to sell a MC against a 'bu in the same condition the buyer will onyl (sic) rarely make a purchase decision based on the stickers that run down the side- I've been there.

Basically my point; however, it is the content that justifies the price not the decals. NADA may be a "general guide"; however, it is the "general guide" that every major lending institution uses when determining value and financing a used boat.

Then MYMC flamed (sic) me becuase (sic) one of the boards members wanted a pic of the RLXi and I posted a pic of mine. So you screamt (sic) like a little girl to the moderator and had the thread erased. Does that ring a bell for anyone who's been on here over a year?

So you took your ball and went home...

east tx skier
05-05-2005, 06:24 PM
I do believe Greg takes six balls before he goes home.

But if you believe that one, you might also believe that I'm in East Texas. :)

LakePirate
05-05-2005, 06:30 PM
.......... :D

east tx skier
05-05-2005, 06:35 PM
You guys better play nice. Brad's on his way over here!

BriEOD
05-05-2005, 06:37 PM
I do believe Greg takes six balls

Greg takes Hans where?

east tx skier
05-05-2005, 06:41 PM
I can't even type I'm laughing so hard. What's everyone's aversion to threadjacking. I can be fun if done properly. Plus, this thread has become a major asswhip.

MYMC
05-05-2005, 06:47 PM
http://keithmcd.com/pictures/jack_black_hobbit.png

It was the closest I could come to a "thread jack image"

east tx skier
05-05-2005, 06:59 PM
dig the new avatar. 'tis ex-cell-ent.

bradamerry
05-05-2005, 07:01 PM
What the He!! is the problem here guys... They all make nice boats, some think MC's are better and some like others brands. Don't make me get Farmer's shampoo out here, he is on his way over ;) !

MYMC
05-05-2005, 07:08 PM
Thanks East...I hate to ruin a good joke but what is yours or where did it come from...is it just some guy licking a bowling ball (funny no matter how you view it) just curious.

Leroy
05-05-2005, 09:41 PM
ETS, Which boat was that behind?

Ah, no. Rumors of my (tubing) death have been greatly exagerated. We all had a great time tubing at Toolman's wedding.

/Also, WOT is about 7 o'clock on my throttle.

bradamerry
05-05-2005, 09:44 PM
ETS, Which boat was that behind?
The Bayliner, I mean MC :eek: !!!

SDmc205
05-05-2005, 10:45 PM
If I'm not mistaken, the guy licking the bowling ball is from The Big Lebowski, a great movie. The character is Nick Turtorro (sp?) playing Jesus the latin/Italian freak of a bowler with the great line "nobody f**ks with Jesus." A great movie by the Coen Brothers that I recommend to everybody. John Goodman, Jeff Bridges, Steve Buscemi, Julianne Moore. An almost perfect cast and some great dialouge. (Of course if you do not like "adult" language you may not like the movie.

Jim@BAWS
05-05-2005, 11:23 PM
Mr 38,
If you are skiing the course at that line length my hat is off to you. My skiing background is totally different. I have owned a few NEW BU's myself and used them in a SHOW SKIING environment. Fun to drive, fast and nimble, but when the boats are put through the paces they just do not hold up. My personal boat was in for service and I needed a boat for a upcoming large show. A single TRIO (Basically a 2/1 pyramid) was being pulled by my boat. The PYLON ripped right out of the boat. I never bothered to look and see how it was mounted. Behind a hidden plate was a steel pylon wrapped in glass with a pin though it. Malibu was there the NEXT morning picking up the boat so no one could see it. Do I have pictures... no I do not. They make a good boat, it IS NOT what a Mastercraft is. As far a doing dips on your winshield. Hollow stantion tubes are no comparison to solid stainless steel. Your windshield does flex ours does not.

I am not here to fight with you. You came to a MC Owners site where dealers participate. All enthusiasts, all with differnent backgrounds. What did you expect? I come here to help a variety of people in there search. Just like when a customer comes into my shop who is a inexperineced or experineced buyer I educate them on our product usually after a hour or so of deprogamming and debriefing the Malibu claims of "OURS IS JUST AS GOOD". It is trully amazing to me how much CRAP is thrown against the wall. None of it sticks...and it is always a comparison to MC. They cannot sell on there own merits but must piggy back on MC sucess to sell there inferior product.

EX.
a) Mastercraft is forsale or has been bought NOT TRUE. Actually BU is forsale and the same investment group that is involved with MC's new saltwaters series if boats, looked at BU's books and could not figure out where or how they are making money. BU may have made a few more boats than us last year operating 2 plants. But MC at 80 MIL or so vs BU at 30-40 Mil...whose the leader?
b) Mastercraft uses a intank fuel pump...its dangerous.
No...MC uses a intank pump because MC is the only boat made that has US COAST GUARD approval to run a intank fuel pump NO ONE ELSE.
c) We us a space age floor in our boats. Mastercraft still uses fiberglass. HELL YA we do We DO not use a PLASTIC floor that is put together in peices. Just look at the most rescent WaterSki Mag with the HUGE Malibu section and look at the crazy photo of the floor 10-15 different pieces make 1 floor. BU can go ahead and lay claim to that one!.It bends and dings Why do you think the carpet delaminates. The floors dings from your heels when you jump in the boat.

I have torn into the boats from bow to stern. I have worked on them. I no how they are built. I hope that you are not another frustrated BU owner that has bought into the SMOKE and MIRRORS campaign that wishes he still had a Mastercraft after finding out THE TRUTH

Last week one of the VPs from BU visited the Gardens to see how the boats are holding up THEY ARE NOT.

1)One died at show center during a act and has not run since. Indmars Problem Maybe! 3 boats have been sent back. A 5 boat show was down to 2 a couple of weeks ago.
2) One had a strut tear out and wrap itself around a drive shaft
3) Another one the steering gave way and ended up on the Breakwater tires.
4) All the HYDRODAMPENING boxes have given way. They all leak like a sieve. Great way to add a drive shaft to a boat. Cut a hole in the bottom with a JIGSAW, leave exposed glass, ad a PLASTIC box seal it with some silcone all so you DO NOT have to align the motor with the shaft Another FIRST. Why NO HYDRO BOXES in V-DRIVES? Wonder Why???
5) One is cracking where the windshield meets the deck. All the BLING BLING vents are coming off because BU decided it was COOL to cut out a intregral part of the hull THE CORNERS they now have NO support. Another FIRST

I will stop now. I rest my case. Malibu is a GOOD boat MASTERCRAFT is better. Would LOVE to tear into them both when you are present. Maybe just maybe your eyes will open up and you will See the light
I DID !!!

Jim@BAWS... You know who I am Who are you ?

peason
05-05-2005, 11:39 PM
Jim, very good response. I know that MC makes a good boat, but you have pointed out several items that I did not know about - thanks for the lesson.

BriEOD
05-06-2005, 08:00 AM
Jim, no one can say you're not passionate about your work! Well said. Wow, MC has made $80M. That's good stuff. Out of curiositiy where does CC fall in comparisson?

SteveO
05-06-2005, 09:32 AM
Wow, I go away for a day and missed a good dog fight. You boys play nice. Obviously a passionate subject. At the end of the day, we all make decisions for various reasons. If someone buys something for a specific reason, i.e. feel of the wake at 38 off, good for them. It was their choice. If someone buys it for TAP's or a wedge, good for them. The subject is clearly a touchy one because the sport is something we LOVE to do. Remember it is a sport, so let's be good sportsman.

skisix@38
05-06-2005, 09:59 AM
Jim,
Bu sold a lot of boats last year and the year before that etc..... Somebody's think they build a really good boat. There are still '88 skiers and '94 echelons that are for sell, they probably even run and pull skiers. Point is that there are older bu's that haven't fallen apart, just like there are older MC and CC that still do the job they were designed to do. So, they are all good boats- go back to my first sentance in my first post and I said the same thing- I THINK THEY ARE ALL GOOD BOATS, I THINK MC IS A GOOD BOAT.

My point to you is that everyone else can accept that someone might want something other than a MC - why can't you? On a public forum you don't have to pitch your sales so aggresively. Sure it's a MC forum and I expect the folks on this site to lean toward MC but, it's still a public forum. Oh and all you have to do is click on my handle and it shows you who I am- I'm not hiding behind anything.

MYMC, yeah I guess I took my ball home- I can get yelled at, flammed or whatever a lot of different places. I come to the internet for entertainment and these sites because I love skiing and I love being around the great folks that ski- I don't care what stickers are on the side of the boat- just as long as it has gas and a rope.

What's the addage: "Don't wrestle with a pig- you'll get dirty and the pig likes it"

bradamerry
05-06-2005, 10:05 AM
skisix@38 :wavey: , why don't you come and join us at another thread dude. Go read the "Amen to this GUYS!!!" Thread. You need a good laugh.

tex
05-06-2005, 10:14 AM
Why would anyone want to do a dip on their windsheild. I'm saving my energy for skiing and that other thing that takes up energy...

Also Jim is right...want to see what a boat is made of. See how it holds up in a pro show. In every show that I skied in, they were taken care of and driven the piss out of. They all will break down-some alot more then others!

Ski-A-Rees
05-06-2005, 10:21 AM
Seriously, There are the same dog fights out there with Ford and Chevy. The only thing I can say is Ford and Chevy have both been around forever. As for Malibu, they are a few years behind Mastercraft. Think about this though, Mastercrafts are powered by both Ford and Chevy. You really can't say that one is better than the other when they both use some of the same stuff. As for me though, I ride with Mastercraft...

BrianM
05-06-2005, 10:31 AM
Jim, ... I don't care what stickers are on the side of the boat- just as long as it has gas and a rope.

What's the addage: "Don't wrestle with a pig- you'll get dirty and the pig likes it"

Ahmen! :D

And as Brad said come join in on some of the other discussions. This one is starting to stink. :uglyhamme

H2OGirl
05-06-2005, 10:58 AM
So have any of you noticed the guy who orginally posted the question looking for help and advise hasn't been back? I agree MC has a good boat, but I too board behind whatever is available, don't care what is on the side as long as it has a rope. I chose a MC, for the quality, but seriouly concidered the others too, they are more affordable and for some, being on the water having a good time with a descent boat is more important than breaking the bank on a boat. MC are good, but like anything there is room for impovement and they also break and have issues, look at me. I know my problem was not a MC design issue, it was human error, none the less I am not on the water. You people also attacted me at first when I had some issues with MC. Maybe we could all be a little nicer and the guests might not be so afaid to join.

MarkP
05-06-2005, 11:06 AM
H2oGirl

I’m glad to hear your back on the water already. Are you getting out this weekend. Looks like things are going to warm up a little. Cant wait to se some on the water shots and some bordin pics!!

Looks like I am getting out this weekend (first time this year):woohoo:

Ski-A-Rees
05-06-2005, 11:07 AM
Couldn't have been worded better!

u29460
05-06-2005, 11:38 AM
Second the motion….


I like chevy’s :D

You guys would LYAO :uglyhamme if you saw the boat my brothers and I had been skiing off of before we got our MC. We bought a pyramid pole for our Bayliner Cobra and we carved turns behind the bass boat for about 10 years. You wouldn’t believe how much it pleased the fisherman to see us wasting a perfectly good fishing boat on pulling turns. Well at least that is the opinion they conveyed to us through nonverbal communication methods.

east tx skier
05-06-2005, 11:56 AM
Thanks East...I hate to ruin a good joke but what is yours or where did it come from...is it just some guy licking a bowling ball (funny no matter how you view it) just curious.

It's from The Big Lebowski.

Just read SDMC205's post. Most gratuitous use of the F-word in the history of movies. Something like 457 times (give or take). You don't notice after the first 5 minutes though.

H20 Girl, you raise a very valid point. I've seen people post questions on the nautique forum, i.e., XStar versus 216. When people start attacking the Xstar and saying it is a POS or calling it MasterCrap, I just roll my eyes and move along to something else. Jim is definitely passionate about MC and I don't fault him for that. But his zeal can obviously rub some people the wrong way (see above). I don't think that's his intent, but it just works out that way sometimes. With no MC dealer around here, I see a lot of CCs on the water. I compliment their boats to them and the ones I know have a standing invitation to ride with me. I think the boat will speak for itself better than I could. Not really so much of an option on the internet though.

Jim, I thought the floors were aluminum. If they changed to glass, when did they change? Or is only the panel behind my motorbox aluminum (93).

MYMC
05-06-2005, 01:01 PM
Ok, I have a movie to rent this weekend.

I just watched Salma Hayek in some movie about something or another...I dont remember much after she walked on screen in the bikini :eek:

east tx skier
05-06-2005, 01:04 PM
Was it Dogma? Nice shots of Salma in that one.

Lebowski is, in my twisted view, my favorite Coen Bros. movies. Although I was also a huge fan of O Bro, The man who wasn't there, Intolerable Cruelty (My wife and I are apparently the only people who liked this one), and raising arizzona.

Pour yourself a White Russian or Bulldog before you fire up the DVD player. You'll be glad you did.

tex
05-06-2005, 01:07 PM
It's from The Big Lebowski.

Just read SDMC205's post. Most gratuitous use of the F-word in the history of movies. Something like 457 times (give or take). You don't notice after the first 5 minutes though.

H20 Girl, you raise a very valid point. I've seen people post questions on the nautique forum, i.e., XStar versus 216. When people start attacking the Xstar and saying it is a POS or calling it MasterCrap, I just roll my eyes and move along to something else. Jim is definitely passionate about MC and I don't fault him for that. But his zeal can obviously rub some people the wrong way (see above). I don't think that's his intent, but it just works out that way sometimes. With no MC dealer around here, I see a lot of CCs on the water. I compliment their boats to them and the ones I know have a standing invitation to ride with me. I think the boat will speak for itself better than I could. Not really so much of an option on the internet though.

Jim, I thought the floors were aluminum. If they changed to glass, when did they change? Or is only the panel behind my motorbox aluminum (93).

you want f-bombs-watch deadwood on hbo or rent raging bull!

i have a 197 and love it. i have skied behind lots of bu's. like mine better-see no threadjack!

MYMC
05-06-2005, 01:10 PM
Got it, a white russian it is.
I watched After Sunset, but Mr. Skin highly recomends Frida (2002)...I mean so I have heard, I would never utilize such a web site. ;)

LakePirate
05-06-2005, 01:10 PM
It's from The Big Lebowski.

Just read SDMC205's post. Most gratuitous use of the F-word in the history of movies. Something like 457 times (give or take). You don't notice after the first 5 minutes though.



I thought South Park bigger longer and uncut held the record for that.?

E.T.S have you seen the stuff about Big Lebowski reunions? Very Odd

Sorry for the threadjack but this one needed it.

aprgriggs
05-06-2005, 01:12 PM
I have a 2005 X9/209 with a MCX and I love it. Great wake and still enough room for the family. We are starting some barefooting but from what I have learned the MCX will produce enough power.

Also, the boat handles really well and has good storage space for a DD.

Good Luck....Get the MC

east tx skier
05-06-2005, 01:13 PM
You may be right. It made my day that that movie SP-BL&U, got an oscar nomination for music. Take that, Parents TV Council. Never heard of the reunions.

LakePirate
05-06-2005, 01:21 PM
Oh it is like trekkies, they dress up like Walter and Donnie and play games like throw the ringer




The Klye's mom is a beitch song cracks me up.

erkoehler
05-06-2005, 01:58 PM
I have a 2005 X9/209 with a MCX and I love it. Great wake and still enough room for the family. We are starting some barefooting but from what I have learned the MCX will produce enough power.

Also, the boat handles really well and has good storage space for a DD.

Good Luck....Get the MC


Don't worry about pulling footers. When we were out last weekend, alot of the guys footed behind the X9 and said that it was decent. The only problem they had was getting out of the wash in the beginning. But not to bad. Same engine, MCX 350.

east tx skier
05-06-2005, 05:18 PM
That's great. The Little Lebowski urban achievers, and proud we are of all of them.