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shepherd
08-14-2008, 02:21 PM
Click here: Suzanna Gratia-Hupp: What the Second Amendment is REALLY For

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4069761537893819675&pr=goog-sl

Reelect Nobody

coz
08-14-2008, 02:33 PM
Click here: Suzanna Gratia-Hupp: What the Second Amendment is REALLY For

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4069761537893819675&pr=goog-sl

Reelect Nobody

:rant: I'm on her side 100%

ShamrockIV
08-14-2008, 02:34 PM
gun control is BS!!

look at history. guns and books are the first thing they take from you. that way you stay uneducated and unable to protect urself!!!

bigmac
08-14-2008, 02:41 PM
gun control is BS!!

look at history. guns and books are the first thing they take from you. that way you stay uneducated and unable to protect urself!!!


"Protect urself" from what? From when the commies come marching down the streets of our cities when they begin their invasion of the US?

Just playing devil's advocate here. I'm not in favor of banning firearms, although I am in favor of common sense in firearms ownership. More of the latter would decrease the chances of the former IMHO.

shepherd
08-14-2008, 02:44 PM
I just think she's hot.

flipper
08-14-2008, 02:44 PM
Gun control sucks.....in Cali at least. I'm not saying there shouldn't be any, just the way the do it, and the laws they have here are pretty stupid.

example, you can have a mini 14, but not an AR15, which is pretty much the same thing, just a different stock!

ShamrockIV
08-14-2008, 02:48 PM
"Protect urself" from what? From when the commies come marching down the streets of our cities when they begin their invasion of the US?

Just playing devil's advocate here. I'm not in favor of banning firearms, although I am in favor of common sense in firearms ownership. More of the latter would decrease the chances of the former IMHO.


i agree with the responsible gun ownership, but if you think the "commies" ala Red Dawn are coming after us you are mistaken. the internal threats are the ones you must be carefull of!!

thijs
08-14-2008, 02:48 PM
Wow, the part of he mother going to cradle her husband brought a tear to my eyes.

The fact is, it is easy to get guns. There is no way restrictions will keep guns out of a bad persons hands, it only keeps them out of the hand of those with something to protect.

Gun registry here in Canada has not stopped murder, registered guns kill too. It was merely a cash grab here. But the fact we have such strict laws leaves us law-abiding citizens unprotected. Meanwhile some Asian gang member here in Calgary is feeling free to take his gun and shoot others in broad daylight in public.

Let me carry mine with me. I am not a murderer.

ShamrockIV
08-14-2008, 02:51 PM
Gun control sucks.....in Cali at least. I'm not saying there shouldn't be any, just the way the do it, and the laws they have here are pretty stupid.

example, you can have a mini 14, but not an AR15, which is pretty much the same thing, just a different stock!

not quite the same thing but i get your point!!

as if a good old 870 shotgun would not as much damage if one wants to go postal!!

coz
08-14-2008, 02:57 PM
Gun control sucks.....in Cali at least. I'm not saying there shouldn't be any, just the way the do it, and the laws they have here are pretty stupid.

example, you can have a mini 14, but not an AR15, which is pretty much the same thing, just a different stock!


I have a mini-14 and I bought a folding stock from Turners Outdoorsman and when the cali laws went into effect back in the 90's my gun became illegal :mad: that dont mean I changed stock, I didn't :D
Now I'm here in AZ it's ok and if I wanted too I could walk around this state with my 45 in a holster, just can't go into stores, banks or schools and can't carry it concealed :D

TMCNo1
08-14-2008, 02:59 PM
I'm not in favor of gun control, cause when Atlfootr finds out he'll never be a moderator, he will hunt us all down and I want to protect myself.

shepherd
08-14-2008, 03:03 PM
I'm not in favor of gun control, cause when Atlfootr finds out he'll never be a moderator, he will hunt us all down and I want to protect myself.

And you never know when you're going to bump into Kid Rock at the Waffle House.

flipper
08-14-2008, 03:08 PM
not quite the same thing but i get your point!!

as if a good old 870 shotgun would not as much damage if one wants to go postal!!

exactly, not the exact same gun, but same round, semi auto with detachable mag. That's what I meant by pretty much the same gun. Here in cali, an AR 15 is okay, if it doesn't have a detachable mag. :confused:

BriEOD
08-14-2008, 03:13 PM
Sociological studies have suggested over and over again that gun control does not equate to lower crime rates (with or without firearms), nor lesser recidivism rates. Take England for example. They banned guns and the national crime rate went up.

Last time I checked drugs were illegal. It doesn't seem like people have trouble getting a hold of them.

Gonzo
08-14-2008, 03:25 PM
And you never know when you're going to bump into Kid Rock at the Waffle House.

Thats funny right there.

ShamrockIV
08-14-2008, 03:26 PM
exactly, not the exact same gun, but same round, semi auto with detachable mag. That's what I meant by pretty much the same gun. Here in cali, an AR 15 is okay, if it doesn't have a detachable mag. :confused:

what fun is that??????? lol

bigmac
08-14-2008, 03:27 PM
i agree with the responsible gun ownership, but if you think the "commies" ala Red Dawn are coming after us you are mistaken. the internal threats are the ones you must be carefull of!!
No. I think the concept of "Red Dawn" is ludicrous. As to internal threats that we have to defend ourselves from, please specify.

ShamrockIV
08-14-2008, 03:32 PM
No. I think the concept of "Red Dawn" is ludicrous. As to internal threats that we have to defend ourselves from, please specify.

read a book please.

i assume the germans, russians, italians, chinese, north koreans and all the other countries that have had some sort of totalitarian leadership thought they had no worries either!!

a gun is a tool. it is just as lethal as the person using it. kinda like a MC. i can kill alot of folks by not using my boat responsibly too now cant I??

ski_king
08-14-2008, 03:42 PM
Gun Control?
I see no problem with rifles, shotguns, muzzle loaders, etc. for hunting. I have a safe full of them myself.

On the other hand, I can't see why anybody would have a use for an assult rifle other than the military or police swat team.

My neighbor has a few and scares the crap out of me a couple of times a year when he gets drunk and gets them out and burns thru a few hundered rounds at 1 AM.


Also, remember guns don't kill people, bullets do, lets just outlaw bullets. Or give everyboody one like Barney Fife.

bigmac
08-14-2008, 03:45 PM
read a book please.

i assume the germans, russians, italians, chinese, north koreans and all the other countries that have had some sort of totalitarian leadership thought they had no worries either!!

a gun is a tool. it is just as lethal as the person using it. kinda like a MC. i can kill alot of folks by not using my boat responsibly too now cant I??

"Read a book"? Sheesh.:rolleyes:

So, you are worried about the US government imposing a totalitarian government in the same way that Nazi Germany did? And you think that owning a firearm is the key to preventing that from happening?

I'm really not trying to be argumentative. I'm not in favor of blanket gun control either. Your position isn't unusual however. I'm just trying to ascertain your level of paranoia. It did exceed my expectations.

Skipper
08-14-2008, 03:52 PM
There are two types of people in the world, threat and unknown. The sooner you eliminate the threat and control the unknown, the greater likelyhood that you will continue to live. Only reason I am still typing is because I am very good at doing that - skiing, not so good.

ShamrockIV
08-14-2008, 03:55 PM
"Read a book"? Sheesh.:rolleyes:

So, you are worried about the US government imposing a totalitarian government in the same way that Nazi Germany did? And you think that owning a firearm is the key to preventing that from happening?

I'm really not trying to be argumentative. I'm not in favor of blanket gun control either. Your position isn't unusual however. I'm just trying to ascertain your level of paranoia. It did exceed my expectations.

i am not as papranoid as u think. i am really just against gun control. i own guns and i always have and will as long as possible. i just would rather have one if i need it than to expect someone to come running if someone wants to harm my family or myself. plus where i live you never know what kinda snakes and d@ng coyotes or anything else you may need to blast!!!

but as for the gov coming in and taking over nah that os not really my concern!! ask me after NOV though and i may have a different outlook!!

ShamrockIV
08-14-2008, 03:56 PM
There are two types of people in the world, threat and unknown. The sooner you eliminate the threat and control the unknown, the greater likelyhood that you will continue to live. Only reason I am still typing is because I am very good at doing that - skiing, not so good.


true bill!!

2 groups us(friend) and them(foe)

ditto here on the watersports!! but i try like a little boy dog!!!

sand2snow22
08-14-2008, 03:59 PM
I heard UMP started a militia in the UP! Can anyone confirm?

shepherd
08-14-2008, 04:00 PM
"Read a book"? Sheesh.:rolleyes:

So, you are worried about the US government imposing a totalitarian government in the same way that Nazi Germany did? And you think that owning a firearm is the key to preventing that from happening?

I'm really not trying to be argumentative. I'm not in favor of blanket gun control either. Your position isn't unusual however. I'm just trying to ascertain your level of paranoia. It did exceed my expectations.

Speaking of totalitarian governments. If we got one, these guys could show up in your driveway! We need assault rifles to defend ourselves against them! ;)

Sham: "Ma'am, you have 10 minutes to grab your kids and belongings and evacuate these premises." :cool: <== notice the resemblance?

bigmac
08-14-2008, 04:03 PM
Speaking of totalitarian governments. If we got one, these guys could show up in your driveway! We need assault rifles to defend ourselves against them! ;)



For that very reason, I would like to see a constitutional amendment that guarantees us the right to keep and bear claymores.

ShamrockIV
08-14-2008, 04:05 PM
close shep!!!!

"Ma'am I am with the Government!!! We are here to help!!!!!!!"

Skipper
08-14-2008, 04:06 PM
It's all fun and games until some heavily armed,off kelter, snapper-head shows up (insert location here) and all you have to defend yourself with is your wit. Personally, I'll shoot the son*****!

ShamrockIV
08-14-2008, 04:09 PM
For that very reason, I would like to see a constitutional amendment that guarantees us the right to keep and bear claymores.

"claymore, claymore, claymore!!!!"

and I am the paranoid one??? :confused:

you want antipersonnel mines???? for home defense?? lol

"go back to sleep honey, that was just claymore #6 on the south side of the house!!" lol

by the way bigmac, if they legalize them let me know i will teach you to set them up!!

remember they are serious when they say "front toward enemy"

stuartmcnair
08-14-2008, 04:12 PM
I can give you an example of when you would need an "assault" rifle. When over twenty coyotes come onto your property and start chasing around one of your horses or get too close to your children playing outside. A thirty round magazine is just about right for that situation.

Now, I am not saying everyone will have that happen but when it does, I don't want to have to open a safe, remove a trigger lock and then load the magazine. All I want is to grab it, chamber the first and empty the last.

ShamrockIV
08-14-2008, 04:13 PM
It's all fun and games until some heavily armed,off kelter, snapper-head shows up (insert location here) and all you have to defend yourself with is your wit. Personally, I'll shoot the son*****!

amen bill hard to beat a 185 grain 45 acp!!!!!! usually stops all arguements!!!

we have had 2 people here in nashville get killed lately while trying to help someone that was getting robbed!! one was about 1 mile from my work in broad daylight!! helping innocent folks is alot easier when u are packing!!

shepherd
08-14-2008, 04:27 PM
close shep!!!!

"Ma'am I am with the Government!!! We are here to help!!!!!!!"

Oh yeah. Right!
:D:uglyhamme:uglyhamme:D

ShamrockIV
08-14-2008, 04:36 PM
Oh yeah. Right!
:D:uglyhamme:uglyhamme:D

doesn't that make u sleep better shep!!!!!

bigmac
08-14-2008, 04:45 PM
by the way bigmac, if they legalize them let me know i will teach you to set them up!!



I already know how to set them up. "Front toward enemy", right?

TMCNo1
08-14-2008, 04:46 PM
And you never know when you're going to bump into Kid Rock at the Waffle House.


Yea, those Waffle Houses are always in a high crime areas, you really need a gun to commit a crime, so it now comes full circle!:rolleyes::D

I'm gonna start going to Huddle House where Brooks and Dunn go with their MasterCraft after filming videos!:cool:

ShamrockIV
08-14-2008, 04:51 PM
I already know how to set them up. "Front toward enemy", right?


yep rule number 2 is always keep the clacker with u!!!!

JimN
08-14-2008, 05:14 PM
"although I am in favor of common sense in firearms ownership"

The sensible ones aren't the problem but they end up being hurt by the government's "solution". She's absolutely right- the 2nd Amendment was specifically so the People could be free to protect themselves from anyone who meant them harm, including the government. The problem with the current style of gun control is that it ignores the fact that if someone wants a gat, they're gonna find a way to get one, whether they have to wait, or not. The background check is nice, a waiting period is good if the person is a hot-head and is itching to shoot someone, but going to a bar in the city and asking around makes it awfully easy to find one.

Common sense would mean that the gun owner would get some training, so the bullets will tend to go to a specific target but they they spray around in the heat of a gun fight, it's obvious that training isn't a consideration for the gang-bangers, drug dealers and other dirtbags who'll shoot someone over a stolen watch or mean-mugging (both happened here in the past couple of months and six people were killed).

When a government takes the weapons from its people, the first thing that happens is an increase in crime. Why? Because the criminals know that the vast majority of people won't be armed. Willie Sutton was asked why he robbed banks and he replied, "Because that's where they keep the money". The old bumper sticker that said "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" is true, to a point. It assumes that ALL other people will turn their weapons in and I can't see that happening.

Gun control is futile, if they try to do it the way they have been. Too much leniency in releasing criminals when they were in for violent crimes is a huge problem and as far as I can tell, not a dam thing is being done about it, other than them killing someone and everyone else mopping up the blood. Wisconsin released a guy and in two days, he killed someone. It's very common and with our state and local government, unless I'm inside my home, I can't do much to protect myself.

chudson
08-14-2008, 05:36 PM
Was gonna put these in the misc. picture thread but I figured this was as good a place as any.
39026

39027
Everyone should own a gun, some should not be able to buy ammo though!!!:rolleyes:

wakeX2wake
08-14-2008, 05:39 PM
the only reason i want a gun is so i can shoot gas theives:cool:

chudson
08-14-2008, 05:48 PM
Here's a web site to check out..............

http://gunssavelives.com/

coz
08-14-2008, 05:56 PM
This is gun control :D

http://capnbob.us/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/head-shots.jpg

Handy Homeowner kit :D

http://capnbob.us/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/off2the-range.jpg

flipper
08-14-2008, 06:11 PM
I thought gun control was just a steady hand. :D :confused:

JimN
08-14-2008, 07:00 PM
Chris Rock had a good idea- anyone can get a gun but bullets cost $5000 each. Pop a cap in someone's azz and they try to run- "Ahem, I think you have something of mine!"

ted shred
08-14-2008, 07:27 PM
Right On !!! She told it like it is.

TX.X-30 fan
08-14-2008, 07:32 PM
I want sham on my side when they hit the beaches, you can recognize me I'm the one very close behind Sham. :D

bigmac toooooooo late for weapons for you:mad: they are just going to tax and regulate you to death. :D Minnesota the land of 10,000 taxes. 8p

bigmac
08-14-2008, 08:52 PM
bigmac toooooooo late for weapons for you:mad: they are just going to tax and regulate you to death. :D Minnesota the land of 10,000 taxes. 8pI have several handguns as well as a CCW. Not only are they not taxed, at least two of my pistols have been tax-deducted as necessary equipment for volunteer work I do for the county. I have checked, but the Sheriff's Dept. can't get me any claymores. I do have a modest little inventory of smoke grenades, artillary simulators and flash-bangs, and even a couple of surplus parachute flares. Can't remember why. They do have a certain entertainment value, however.

BriEOD
08-14-2008, 09:23 PM
I already know how to set them up. "Front toward enemy", right?

Gimmeee a call Mac and I'll tell you how to build one subsequent to a trip to your local Wal-Mart. ;)

Chief
08-14-2008, 10:21 PM
My wife won't let me have one. She looked worried when I was buying the machete for cutting sod.

I could have bought a real nice one for the price I just paid for the security system.

TX.X-30 fan
08-14-2008, 10:42 PM
testicle lock box?

trickskier
08-14-2008, 10:43 PM
My wife won't let me have one. She looked worried when I was buying the machete for cutting sod.

I could have bought a real nice one for the price I just paid for the security system.
Now there's a SMART woman!!!....................;)

Chief
08-14-2008, 10:47 PM
testicle lock box?

Yup...................

2000mcxstar
08-14-2008, 11:07 PM
If you really want one, anyone can get a gun, but if every other person is carrying, do you really think that they are going to pull it out to do you or someone else harm when everyone around simply has to pull it out, point and shoot?

2RLAKE
08-15-2008, 08:49 AM
gun control ... solid grib, exhale 50%, slow steady pull on the trigger ...

All for the right to own and i do have a concealed carry permit .... scared to death what one political presidential candidate really wants to do with gun control

ShamrockIV
08-15-2008, 09:11 AM
My wife won't let me have one

dang chief. does your wife have a nice jar on the mantle she keeps your junk in???

you had almost changed my perception of navy guys!!!

ShamrockIV
08-15-2008, 09:14 AM
If you really want one, anyone can get a gun, but if every other person is carrying, do you really think that they are going to pull it out to do you or someone else harm when everyone around simply has to pull it out, point and shoot?

as if anyone believes stats, but states that have concealed carry permits have a lower crime rate. thieves are more cautious when their victim might just have a stainless steel para ordanance c7 45acp with copper hollow points in it!!! just for example!!!

mlay
08-16-2008, 03:21 PM
When I finally decided to part ways with the military, I quickly obtained a carry concealed permit. Now that Ga has changed its laws I can carry many places I could not before. In that entire time I do not believe anyone I had contact with ever knew. That's the entire point behind "concealed". I think if more people wore them in plain view it would cut down on crime in a big way but either way I know my family and I are protected.

My favorite quote, " Guns kill people like spoons make Rosie O'Donel fat".

Just my two cents anways....

mlay
08-16-2008, 03:31 PM
Glue and bb's and your good to go. Kind of does away with the front-toward enemy idea but works. I've been out long enough to go through my stock on holidays but always good fun. (no modified Art Sim's there though, just clean fun).

I have several handguns as well as a CCW. Not only are they not taxed, at least two of my pistols have been tax-deducted as necessary equipment for volunteer work I do for the county. I have checked, but the Sheriff's Dept. can't get me any claymores. I do have a modest little inventory of smoke grenades, artillary simulators and flash-bangs, and even a couple of surplus parachute flares. Can't remember why. They do have a certain entertainment value, however.

JimN
08-16-2008, 03:49 PM
Spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9C3gpIwk_FQ

If we can get a whole orchestra of spoon players, will she just explode and go away?

bigmac
08-16-2008, 03:59 PM
Glue and bb's and your good to go. Kind of does away with the front-toward enemy idea but works. I've been out long enough to go through my stock on holidays but always good fun. (no modified Art Sim's there though, just clean fun).I popped a smoke grenade this past July 4th - a pretty calm day - pretty much clouded up the neighborhood. It did get the attention of the neighbors, but they were polite about it. They were less enthused about the artillery simulators in years past, however.

bigmac
08-19-2008, 02:03 PM
"although I am in favor of common sense in firearms ownership"

The sensible ones aren't the problem but they end up being hurt by the government's "solution". She's absolutely right- the 2nd Amendment was specifically so the People could be free to protect themselves from anyone who meant them harm, including the government. The problem with the current style of gun control is that it ignores the fact that if someone wants a gat, they're gonna find a way to get one, whether they have to wait, or not. The background check is nice, a waiting period is good if the person is a hot-head and is itching to shoot someone, but going to a bar in the city and asking around makes it awfully easy to find one.

Common sense would mean that the gun owner would get some training, so the bullets will tend to go to a specific target but they they spray around in the heat of a gun fight, it's obvious that training isn't a consideration for the gang-bangers, drug dealers and other dirtbags who'll shoot someone over a stolen watch or mean-mugging (both happened here in the past couple of months and six people were killed).

When a government takes the weapons from its people, the first thing that happens is an increase in crime. Why? Because the criminals know that the vast majority of people won't be armed. Willie Sutton was asked why he robbed banks and he replied, "Because that's where they keep the money". The old bumper sticker that said "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" is true, to a point. It assumes that ALL other people will turn their weapons in and I can't see that happening.

Gun control is futile, if they try to do it the way they have been. Too much leniency in releasing criminals when they were in for violent crimes is a huge problem and as far as I can tell, not a dam thing is being done about it, other than them killing someone and everyone else mopping up the blood. Wisconsin released a guy and in two days, he killed someone. It's very common and with our state and local government, unless I'm inside my home, I can't do much to protect myself.By "common sense in gun ownership" I mean gun owners understanding their responsibilities. I don't have a problem with responsible people owning guns, using them for self-protection. My problem is the dolts with children that keep a loaded handgun in their bedside table for self-protection. And those dolts make the paper on a daily basis. Or, the local guy around here 5 years ago that bought a handgun for "self-protection" and kept it in a locked box in his beside table. In the course of "protecting" his home one night, he shot and killed his 16 year old daughter who was sneaking back in having snuck out earlier.

Jesus_Freak
08-19-2008, 02:11 PM
...My problem is the dolts with children that keep a loaded handgun in their bedside table for self-protection. And those dolts make the paper on a daily basis.

Where do non-dolts with children keep their guns so that they are accessible at an "opportune" time?

bigmac
08-19-2008, 02:18 PM
Where do non-dolts with children keep their guns so that they are accessible at an "opportune" time?


I don't know. My level of paranoia is low enough that I've never felt the need to have a weapon immediately available while I'm sleeping in my own home. I have always perceived that my family is in MORE danger by having an unsecured weapon laying around and I believe statistics will back me up on that.

In the meantime, for those with children that DO believe that their life is in constant danger while they sleep, there are a variety of rapid-access safes and vaults on the market.

dummy
08-19-2008, 02:20 PM
I'm just preparing for when the dead really do turn into zombies. (Smith is empty by the way - I know my finger is on the trigger)

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd176/chinhazel/IMG_3171.jpg

Monte
08-19-2008, 02:21 PM
Git em grandma

Armed 85-year-old Woman Makes Intruder Call Cops

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/08/19/ap/strange/main4362460.shtml

coz
08-19-2008, 02:24 PM
I'm just preparing for when the dead really do turn into zombies. (Smith is empty by the way - I know my finger is on the trigger)

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd176/chinhazel/IMG_3171.jpg

Yeah! with those howitzers you definetly need hearing protection :D

Skipper
08-19-2008, 02:25 PM
Guns are like boats, man...just cause some joker is sporting a $50,000.00 ski boat...don't mean he can ski (much less - drive the boat). For that matter, guns are like cars - seen plenty of people who were TRAINED and LISCENSED to operate motor vehicles...but they really suck at driving.

The bad guys have their guns. They always will, regardless of how radically liberal our laws become in the future. Good guys need their guns too.

VOLFAN
08-19-2008, 02:29 PM
Where do non-dolts with children keep their guns so that they are accessible at an "opportune" time?


www.gunvault.com

They have some nice safe's there that fits nicely on your nightstand.

Jesus_Freak
08-19-2008, 02:29 PM
I don't know. My level of paranoia is low enough that I've never felt the need to have a weapon immediately available while I'm sleeping in my own home. I have always perceived that my family is in MORE danger by having an unsecured weapon laying around and I believe statistics will back me up on that.

In the meantime, for those with children that DO believe that their life is in constant danger while they sleep, there are a variety of rapid-access safes and vaults on the market.

Great points. In addition, I would propose that statistics, probabilities, and perceptions all become meaningless the instant the unexpected occurs.

Very sad about the guy and his 16YO.

coz
08-19-2008, 02:29 PM
Good guys need their guns too.

Yup! here's my choice :D

http://www.gunshopfinder.com/springfield/PX9151L.jpg

A nicely tuned SA 45

bigmac
08-19-2008, 02:30 PM
The bad guys have their guns. They always will, regardless of how radically liberal our laws become in the future. Good guys need their guns too.


No problem with that, as long as those good guys are clear on their responsibilities, when and how use them, and how to keep them safe.

Jesus_Freak
08-19-2008, 02:31 PM
Guns are like boats...

If I could find one that could pull me through the course, it would be so much cheaper.

Skipper
08-19-2008, 03:20 PM
If I could find one that could pull me through the course, it would be so much cheaper.

I have pulled too hard going through the gate and felt like I got shot out of a cannon.

flipper
08-19-2008, 03:32 PM
Guns are like boats, man...just cause some joker is sporting a $50,000.00 ski boat...don't mean he can ski (much less - drive the boat). For that matter, guns are like cars - seen plenty of people who were TRAINED and LISCENSED to operate motor vehicles...but they really suck at driving.

The bad guys have their guns. They always will, regardless of how radically liberal our laws become in the future. Good guys need their guns too.

They don't let you have a gun do they Bill?:confused: I mean, you even said you're not allowed in public on your own.:D

Skipper
08-19-2008, 03:40 PM
They don't let you have a gun do they Bill?:confused: I mean, you even said you're not allowed in public on your own.:D



39226


This is what I carry stateside. Never shot anybody that didn't really deserve it.;)

flipper
08-19-2008, 03:43 PM
:uglyhamme:uglyhamme

That's all that matters:rolleyes:

VOLFAN
08-19-2008, 04:13 PM
Three important phrases to remember

1. You are financially responsible for the bullet, no matter where it goes. NO BOND OR INSURANCE POLICY COVERS AND INTENTIONAL ACT.
2. Shoot only to stop or neutralize the threat.
3. DEADLY FORCE CAN BE USED ONLY WHEN YOU OR ANOTHER PERSON ARE IN IMMINENT (within a short period of time; threatening; on the verge of happening; impending) DANGER OF DEATH OR SERIOUS BODILY INJURY.



Two part test for when to shoot
Before pulling the trigger, you must ask yourself:
1. DOES THE PERPETRATOR HAVE THE IMMEDIATE ACCESS AND MEANS TO KILL OR SERIOUSLY INJURY ME?
2. HAS MY LEVEL OF FEAR RISEN TO THE POINT THAT ANOTHER PERSON IN MY SITUATION WOULD REASONABLY BELIEVE THAT IT IS NECESSARY TO PROTECT AGAINST IMMINENT DEATH OR SERIOUS BODILY INJURY?


Other important point to remember

1. You must be in a reasonably probability of danger – as opposed to a mere possibility of danger – for the threat of death to seriously bodily injury to be “imminent.”
2. NEVER shoot to kill, injure or scare. Shoot ONLY to stop the threat.
3. Shoot until the threat ends. Once the threat ends, stop shooting immediately.
4. A person is NEVER justified in using deadly force to prevent or terminate another’s trespass onto real estate or theft of personal property
5. Possession of a handgun carry permit does not give you any police power.


A good website to check out is www.legallyarmed.com

VOLFAN
08-19-2008, 04:15 PM
The never shoot to scare is the hard one for me! Some of those dumb @$$ people on jet skies and wally's tempt me from time to time....

TX.X-30 fan
08-19-2008, 04:29 PM
A person is NEVER justified in using deadly force to prevent or terminate another’s trespass onto real estate or theft of personal property



I believe this is untrue here in Tx. Good stuff volfan thanks.

Scot
08-19-2008, 04:30 PM
For any man or women that has a family that relies on them for their well being.... Godbless the sheepdog....

On Sheep, Sheepdogs, and Wolves
By Dave Grossman

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: "Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another.

Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million.

Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there that will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."...

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.

Let me expand on this old soldier's excellent model of the sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs. We know that the sheep live in denial, which is what makes them sheep. They do not want to believe that there is evil in the world. They can accept the fact that fires can happen, which is why they want fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire alarms and fire exits throughout their kids' schools.

But many of them are outraged at the idea of putting an armed police officer in their kid's school. Our children are thousands of times more likely to be killed or seriously injured by school violence than fire, but the sheep's only response to the possibility of violence is denial. The idea of someone coming to kill or harm their child is just too hard, and so they chose the path of denial.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, cannot and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheepdog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa."

Until the wolf shows up! Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.

The students, the victims, at Columbine High School were big, tough high school students, and under ordinary circumstances they would not have had the time of day for a police officer. They were not bad kids; they just had nothing to say to a cop. When the school was under attack, however, and SWAT teams were clearing the rooms and hallways, the officers had to physically peel those clinging, sobbing kids off of them. This is how the little lambs feel about their sheepdog when the wolf is at the door.

Look at what happened after September 11, 2001 when the wolf pounded hard on the door. Remember how America, more than ever before, felt differently about their law enforcement officers and military personnel? Remember how many times you heard the word hero?

Understand that there is nothing morally superior about being a sheepdog; it is just what you choose to be. Also understand that a sheepdog is a funny critter: He is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle. That is, the young sheepdogs yearn for a righteous battle. The old sheepdogs are a little older and wiser, but they move to the sound of the guns when needed right along with the young ones.

Here is how the sheep and the sheepdog think differently. The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day. After the attacks on September 11, 2001, most of the sheep, that is, most citizens in America said, "Thank God I wasn't on one of those planes." The sheepdogs, the warriors, said, "Dear God, I wish I could have been on one of those planes. Maybe I could have made a difference." When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.

There is nothing morally superior about the sheepdog, the warrior, but he does have one real advantage. Only one. And that is that he is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population.

There was research conducted a few years ago with individuals convicted of violent crimes. These cons were in prison for serious, predatory crimes of violence: assaults, murders and killing law enforcement officers. The vast majority said that they specifically targeted victims by body language: slumped walk, passive behavior and lack of awareness. They chose their victims like big cats do in Africa, when they select one out of the herd that is least able to protect itself.

Some people may be destined to be sheep and others might be genetically primed to be wolves or sheepdogs. But I believe that most people can choose which one they want to be, and I'm proud to say that more and more Americans are choosing to become sheepdogs.

Seven months after the attack on September 11, 2001, Todd Beamer was honored in his hometown of Cranbury, New Jersey. Todd, as you recall, was the man on Flight 93 over Pennsylvania who called on his cell phone to alert an operator from United Airlines about the hijacking. When he learned of the other three passenger planes that had been used as weapons, Todd dropped his phone and uttered the words, "Let's roll," which authorities believe was a signal to the other passengers to confront the terrorist hijackers. In one hour, a transformation occurred among the passengers - athletes, business people and parents. -- From sheep to sheepdogs and together they fought the wolves, ultimately saving an unknown number of lives on the ground.

"Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?"

"There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men." - Edmund Burke

Here is the point I like to emphasize; especially to the thousands of police officers and soldiers I speak to each year. In nature the sheep, real sheep, are born as sheep. Sheepdogs are born that way, and so are wolves. They didn't have a choice. But you are not a critter. As a human being, you can be whatever you want to be. It is a conscious, moral decision.

If you want to be a sheep, then you can be a sheep and that is okay, but you must understand the price you pay. When the wolf comes, you and your loved ones are going to die if there is not a sheepdog there to protect you. If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust, or love. But if you want to be a sheepdog and walk the warrior's path, then you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door.

For example, many officers carry their weapons in church. They are well concealed in ankle holsters, shoulder holsters or inside-the-belt holsters tucked into the small of their backs. Anytime you go to some form of religious service, there is a very good chance that a police officer in your congregation is carrying. You will never know if there is such an individual in your place of worship, until the wolf appears to massacre you and your loved ones.

I was training a group of police officers in Texas, and during the break, one officer asked his friend if he carried his weapon in church. The other cop replied, "I will never be caught without my gun in church." I asked why he felt so strongly about this, and he told me about a cop he knew who was at a church massacre in Ft. Worth, Texas in 1999. In that incident, a mentally deranged individual came into the church and opened fire, gunning down fourteen people. He said that officer believed he could have saved every life that day if he had been carrying his gun. His own son was shot, and all he could do was throw himself on the boy's body and wait to die. That cop looked me in the eye and said, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself after that?"

Some individuals would be horrified if they knew this police officer was carrying a weapon in church. They might call him paranoid and would probably scorn him. Yet these same individuals would be enraged and would call for "heads to roll" if they found out that the airbags in their cars were defective, or that the fire extinguisher and fire sprinklers in their kids' school did not work. They can accept the fact that fires and traffic accidents can happen and that there must be safeguards against them.

Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have any idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones were attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"

It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up.

Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear, helplessness, and horror at your moment of truth.

Gavin de Becker puts it like this in "Fear Less," his superb post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling."

Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level.

And so the warrior must strive to confront denial in all aspects of his life, and prepare himself for the day when evil comes.

If you are warrior who is legally authorized to carry a weapon and you step outside without that weapon, then you become a sheep, pretending that the bad man will not come today. No one can be "on" 24/7, for a lifetime. Everyone needs down time. But if you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself... "Baa."

This business of being a sheep or a sheep dog is not a yes-no dichotomy. It is not an all-or-nothing, either-or choice. It is a matter of degrees, a continuum. On one end is an abject, head-in-the-sand-sheep and on the other end is the ultimate warrior. Few people exist completely on one end or the other. Most of us live somewhere in between. Since 9-11 almost everyone in America took a step up that continuum, away from denial. The sheep took a few steps toward accepting and appreciating their warriors, and the warriors started taking their job more seriously. The degree to which you move up that continuum, away from sheephood and denial, is the degree to which you and your loved ones will survive, physically and psychologically, at your moment of truth.

mlay
08-19-2008, 04:34 PM
Butte , Montana November 5, 2007

Two illegal aliens, Ralphel Resindez, 23, and Enrico Garza, 26,
probably believed they would easily overpower home-alone 11 year old Patricia
Harrington after her father had left their two-story home.

It seems the two crooks never learned two things: they were in Montana
and Patricia had been a clay shooting champion since she was nine.

Patricia was in her upstairs room when the two men broke through the
front door of the house. She quickly ran to her father's room and grabbed his 12
gauge Mossberg 500 shotgun.

Resindez was the first to get up to the second floor only to be the
first to catch a near point blank blast of buckshot from the 11-year-old's knee
crouch aim. He suffered fatal wounds to his abdomen and genitals.

When Garza ran to the foot of the stairs, he took a blast to the left
shoulder and staggered out into the street where he bled to death before medical
help could arrive.

It was found out later that Resindez was armed with a stolen 45
caliber handgun he took from another home invasion robbery. That victim,
50-year-old David Burien, was not so lucky. He died from stab wounds to the
chest .

Ever wonder why good stuff never makes NBC, CBS, PBS, MSNBC, CNN, or
ABC news........an 11 year old girl, properly trained, defended her home, and
herself......against two murderous, illegal immigrants.......and she wins, she
is still alive.

Now that is Gun Control !

Thought for the day:

Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a
drug dealer an 'unlicensed pharmacist'

VOLFAN
08-19-2008, 05:01 PM
A person is NEVER justified in using deadly force to prevent or terminate another’s trespass onto real estate or theft of personal property



I believe this is untrue here in Tx. Good stuff volfan thanks.

You are probably correct on that being different in TX.

bigmac
08-19-2008, 05:03 PM
Butte , Montana November 5, 2007

Two illegal aliens, Ralphel Resindez, 23, and Enrico Garza, 26,
probably believed they would easily overpower home-alone 11 year old Patricia
Harrington after her father had left their two-story home........

Nice story. But did you read the one I posted about the local 16 year old girl whose father thought she was an intruder and he shot and killed her as she was sneaking back into the house one night? You won't read that story in The American Rifleman.

flipper
08-19-2008, 05:06 PM
Nice story. But did you read the one I posted about the local 16 year old girl whose father thought she was an intruder and he shot and killed her as she was sneaking back into the house one night? You won't read that story in The American Rifleman.

Was that the one where the father was a cop?

bigmac
08-19-2008, 05:15 PM
Was that the one where the father was a cop?
No, the one I was talking about happened locally about 5 years ago. The one you're thinking of wasn't fatal to the daughter.

http://www.pantagraph.com/articles/2007/05/31/***/doc465d944e45f79700754832.txt

VOLFAN
08-19-2008, 05:21 PM
nice read mlay

I probably wouldn’t feel the need to carry on my person or keep one in my home, but from past experiences and being involved with law enforcement I have had my life threatened in the past by people that I have arrested and family members of people that I arrested. Therefore I feel the need to protect myself and my family from anyone that might decide to retaliate against me or my family.

CBergerson
08-19-2008, 05:33 PM
Butte , Montana November 5, 2007

Two illegal aliens, Ralphel Resindez, 23, and Enrico Garza, 26,
probably believed they would easily overpower home-alone 11 year old Patricia
Harrington after her father had left their two-story home.

It seems the two crooks never learned two things: they were in Montana
and Patricia had been a clay shooting champion since she was nine.

Patricia was in her upstairs room when the two men broke through the
front door of the house. She quickly ran to her father's room and grabbed his 12
gauge Mossberg 500 shotgun.

Resindez was the first to get up to the second floor only to be the
first to catch a near point blank blast of buckshot from the 11-year-old's knee
crouch aim. He suffered fatal wounds to his abdomen and genitals.

When Garza ran to the foot of the stairs, he took a blast to the left
shoulder and staggered out into the street where he bled to death before medical
help could arrive.

It was found out later that Resindez was armed with a stolen 45
caliber handgun he took from another home invasion robbery. That victim,
50-year-old David Burien, was not so lucky. He died from stab wounds to the
chest .

Ever wonder why good stuff never makes NBC, CBS, PBS, MSNBC, CNN, or
ABC news........an 11 year old girl, properly trained, defended her home, and
herself......against two murderous, illegal immigrants.......and she wins, she
is still alive.

Now that is Gun Control !

Thought for the day:

Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a
drug dealer an 'unlicensed pharmacist'


If this is a true story, where is the link to it?

Typical misinformation. http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/homeinvasion.asp

TX.X-30 fan
08-19-2008, 05:45 PM
Concealed carry has been very successful where it has been tried. A few anecdotal gun accidents really don't accurately show how gun ownership and concealed carry have helped and deterred some forms of violence. IMHO.

TX.X-30 fan
08-19-2008, 05:50 PM
http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/homeinvasion.asp

Skipper
08-20-2008, 01:07 PM
For any man or women that has a family that relies on them for their well being.... Godbless the sheepdog.....

Had the fortunate opportunity to hear LTC Grossman speak before my most recent deployment to the ungalay. I wish the sheep could hear him speak.

My wife (of 22 years) hates that I carry a cocked and locked model 1911 everywhere that I am allowed. My response to her is the same for all those who share her dismay for the sheepdog - "your lips are moving, but all I can hear is baaah, baaah, baaah."

TX.X-30 fan
08-20-2008, 08:31 PM
all I can hear is baaah, baaah, baaah."






Damn you must be over at skidogs with chief. :D:D

2RLAKE
08-20-2008, 08:52 PM
angry bill ... agree with your thoughts and thank you for protecting our freedom to not only carry firearms, but mostly to be able to have this conversation!

jeverett
08-23-2008, 01:56 PM
Gun control is putting the second bullit in the first hole!:)

CBergerson
08-23-2008, 02:37 PM
Had the fortunate opportunity to hear LTC Grossman speak before my most recent deployment to the ungalay. I wish the sheep could hear him speak.

My wife (of 22 years) hates that I carry a cocked and locked model 1911 everywhere that I am allowed. My response to her is the same for all those who share her dismay for the sheepdog - "your lips are moving, but all I can hear is baaah, baaah, baaah."

Anyone that feels the need to brag about carrying around a loaded gun has, in my opinion, already disqualified themselves as being mentally competent to carry said gun.

And, before you start calling me names, I might as well mention that I love guns and hunting and agree with the 2nd amendment. I hunt deer and pheasants and own a shotgun and a couple of rifles. I owned a handgun for a while that I kept in a locked safe under our bed. It made my wife feel more nervous than safe, and I always worried about the kids getting into it, so I sold it.

To carry around a loaded gun in public, unless as a requirement for your job, is just nuts. Unless you are highly trained, which you might indeed be, you are just looking for trouble. The chances that you accidentally or mistakenly shoot someone are far greater than the chance that you actually end up protecting yourself and/or your family from danger.

TX.X-30 fan
08-23-2008, 02:49 PM
Anyone that feels the need to brag about carrying around a loaded gun has, in my opinion, already disqualified themselves as being mentally competent to carry said gun.

And, before you start calling me names, I might as well mention that I love guns and hunting and agree with the 2nd amendment. I hunt deer and pheasants and own a shotgun and a couple of rifles. I owned a handgun for a while that I kept in a locked safe under our bed. It made my wife feel more nervous than safe, and I always worried about the kids getting into it, so I sold it.

To carry around a loaded gun in public, unless as a requirement for your job, is just nuts. Unless you are highly trained, which you might indeed be, you are just looking for trouble. The chances that you accidentally or mistakenly shoot someone are far greater than the chance that you actually end up protecting yourself and/or your family from danger.






No offence chad the facts on concealed carry contradict what you say. It has been very successful everywhere it has been tried. I much prefer law abiding citizens be armed, because the criminals will be.


Your favorite wacko right winger. :D

CBergerson
08-23-2008, 03:36 PM
No offence chad the facts on concealed carry contradict what you say. It has been very successful everywhere it has been tried. I much prefer law abiding citizens be armed, because the criminals will be.


Your favorite wacko right winger. :D

I agree with you that it could be or probably even is a successful deterrent to crime. But, by carrying around a gun, you take the risk of misusing it. What if you shot at a mugger that was truly threatening you with bodily harm, but hit an innocent bystander in the background?

I respect his right to carry a gun. I don't respect his attitude about it. If there gets to be too many macho hot-heads packing heat, then we will devolve back into the days of the old west!!

I wouldn't trust myself to make the split-second decision. Shoot first and ask questions later might make a good movie, but in real life could be a big problem.

bigmac
08-23-2008, 03:45 PM
I agree with you that it could be or probably even is a successful deterrent to crime. But, by carrying around a gun, you take the risk of misusing it. What if you shot at a mugger that was truly threatening you with bodily harm, but hit an innocent bystander in the background?

I respect his right to carry a gun. I don't respect his attitude about it. If there gets to be too many macho hot-heads packing heat, then we will devolve back into the days of the old west!!

I wouldn't trust myself to make the split-second decision. Shoot first and ask questions later might make a good movie, but in real life could be a big problem.
You're not alone in expressing those fears. They were commonly predicted as these looser CCW permit laws were introduced state-by-state. However, those dire predictions haven't materialized as more and more states change those carry laws to "shall issue". It hasn't been carnage in the streets.

Now, one could argue that because there IS a retail market for handguns the result is that there are more guns out there and therefore more potential for bad people to get their hands on them. I think that's a valid argument.

I'm sure it depends on where one lives. Around here, only the most paranoid would carry a weapon with them. Characterizing those who choose not to as "sheep" is pretty silly, and IMHO does indeed say a lot about "Angry Bill". And statistically it's true...a gun in the home for "self defense" is more likely to injure or kill a friend or family member than a potential malefactor.

atlfootr
08-23-2008, 04:08 PM
Wow!

This woman's lived a life time ... NO WONDER SHE FEELS THE WAY SHE DOES.



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TX.X-30 fan
08-23-2008, 06:55 PM
Chad both you and bigmac make good points. Chad it is a personal decision, if you feel uncomfortable then by all means a handgun for protection is not for you. I have no need as bigmac stated where I live to carry a gun daily. Where I used to live was a very nice area near Houston and there were many brutal robberies in driveways, only a matter of time before someone gets killed in my opinion. The new laws in Texas I have no need really to even get a license to carry a gun. It states I can carry a concealed weapon when I travel and makes no distinction about distance. I can carry a loaded shotgun in my front seat if I choose, say what you will but I doubt anyone armed as suck has to worry about a car-jacking.

As crime escalates I see no way for some to protect themselves other than being armed. I have great respect for police professionals, many are good friends, they can't protect everyone and mostly just react after the fact.

I believe the thieves think twice in my state before they enter an occupied dwelling, it is a very useful deterrent and many in law enforcement like the fact that some responsible people are armed.

bridomine99
08-23-2008, 11:57 PM
I could spend all night on this one, but I'm going to keep it short.

1. Scot, great post, one of the best I have ever read
2. Criminals who are using guns do not care if the gun is legal or not. Let’s be realistic, if I'm out shooting people do you think I really care if the gun is legal, I'm a murder for god's sake.
3. There are many practical uses for an "assault rifle". A M4 type AR-15 was the first gun I bought, and if there is one thing that rivals taking the MC out it is going to the range for some target shooting. Yes target shooting. Now the next thing the anti gunners would say is why would you need to use a gun like that to shoot targets, my response is the same reason I like to take a 330hp Mastercraft to go out skiing.
4. Regarding the comment about “protecting yourself’ and that it is not necessary. IF and I stress the IF all hell broke loose and citizens needed to take up arms to defend their families while order was restored (Katrina ring a bell); it is critical that citizens have the means to defend themselves.
5. Regarding the Red Dawn comments…you think there is an insurgency in Iraq…can you imagine how difficult it would be for anyone to occupy the USA? There would be guys like you and I hiding out around every corner, forest, building, etc, etc from MN to TX. Look me in the face and tell me you don’t believe that this would not cross the minds of an opposing force.

BriEOD
08-24-2008, 10:27 AM
Other important point to remember

1. You must be in a reasonably probability of danger – as opposed to a mere possibility of danger – for the threat of death to seriously bodily injury to be “imminent.”
2. NEVER shoot to kill, injure or scare. Shoot ONLY to stop the threat.
3. Shoot until the threat ends. Once the threat ends, stop shooting immediately.
4. A person is NEVER justified in using deadly force to prevent or terminate another’s trespass onto real estate or theft of personal property
5. Possession of a handgun carry permit does not give you any police power.




No offense Volfan, but I'm shaking my head at some of this. I've been through the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center and had hours and hours of 4th Amendment (search and seizure--to shoot someone is a seizure) and Use of Force Training. Per my agencies directives and HR 218 I can carry anywhere anytime, including an aircraft.

Shoot until the threat is neutralized...never shoot to kill--are you nuts? I can show you lots of videos of law enforcement using deadly force and shooting someone with one round only to have the perpatrator continue the attack. Thats right, one to the chest and they are still engaging the LEO. There is no law which says you can only shoot one round at a person versus the entire magazine. You continue to fire until the threat is over. If you felt you were authorized to use deadly force, by using the entire magazine, then do it. Then hand cuff or bind them.

Probability vs. possibility? If you can clearly articulate why you felt your life, or anothers, was in danger you have a green light to use deadly force...period. Maybe the guy/gal pulls a fake rubber knife on you but at the time you think it is real and you engage only to find out later the knife was rubber. Well, at the time you felt your life was in danger--good shoot.

How about things like the Castle Doctrine. In Florida and many other states (MN comes to mind), you have the right to use deadly force outside of your home in the face of a threat construed as deadly. This extends the perimeter of your property to include your body.

Personally, I'm not an advocate for every Tom, Dick and Harry wandering the streets with heat. But, I have no problem with pro-gun laws and think education is the key. Carrying firearms in public is a huge responsibility which shouldn't be taken lightly. This thread further solidfies to me that most people DO NOT possess a clear understanding of when and how to use deadly force.

TMCNo1
08-24-2008, 10:48 AM
No offense Volfan, but I'm shaking my head at some of this. I've been through the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center and had hours and hours of 4th Amendment (search and seizure--to shoot someone is a seizure) and Use of Force Training. Per my agencies directives and HR 218 I can carry anywhere anytime, including an aircraft.

Shoot until the threat is neutralized...never shoot to kill--are you nuts? I can show you lots of videos of law enforcement using deadly force and shooting someone with one round only to have the perpatrator continue the attack. Thats right, one to the chest and they are still engaging the LEO. There is no law which says you can only shoot one round at a person versus the entire magazine. You continue to fire until the threat is over. If you felt you were authorized to use deadly force, by using the entire magazine, then do it. Then hand cuff or bind them.



Probability vs. possibility? If you can clearly articulate why you felt your life, or anothers, was in danger you have a green light to use deadly force...period. Maybe the guy/gal pulls a fake rubber knife on you but at the time you think it is real and you engage only to find out later the knife was rubber. Well, at the time you felt your life was in danger--good shoot.

How about things like the Castle Doctrine. In Florida and many other states (MN comes to mind), you have the right to use deadly force outside of your home in the face of a threat construed as deadly. This extends the perimeter of your property to include your body.

Personally, I'm not an advocate for every Tom, Dick and Harry wandering the streets with heat. But, I have no problem with pro-gun laws and think education is the key. Carrying firearms in public is a huge responsibility which shouldn't be taken lightly. This thread further solidfies to me that most people DO NOT possess a clear understanding of when and how to use deadly force.

Very well stated Brian!

bigmac
08-24-2008, 11:05 AM
I agree completely that education is important. I think the laws as written these days are not bad. The problem is that too many gun owners don't take the responsibilities and education seriously enough. One other thing that has been repeatedly reported when carry laws are libralized is a huge rush to get permits, only to find one year later that fewer than 10% are actually carrying weapons with them. The concern that I have is that that often implies that they've put the weapon in a drawer somewhere, out of mind, and aren't practicing with it. It suggests that these people have purchased a pistol with the unfortunate idea that just having it will protect them.

As to "shooting to kill" vs "shooting to stop"...firing a weapon "until the threat is neutralized" is commonly taught at civilian "schools" like Gunsite as well as many law enforcement training academies. However, in practical terms, this is mostly a semantics thing and I suspect that's what Volfan was referring to. Shooting to "stop" should not be confused with shooting to "wound". The common teaching in venues I'm familiar with, and endorsed by my local County Attorney, is that when being interviewed post-shooting, the LEO (or civilian) will be best served by stating that they were shooting to neutralize the threat, not to intentionally kill the perpetrator (or "actor" as we sometimes say). Yes, LEOs and civilians are taught to shoot repeatedly at center of mass, and yes, if done correctly that will be fatal. But shooting with the expressed intent to kill someone is connotatively problematic for a lot of the public and many Grand Juries, and it's often more palatable to those entities if no hint of anger is injected into the interview. IOW, it sounds better to say, "I was in fear for my life and/or the lives of others so I fired my weapon repeatedly at the subject's center of mass until the threat was removed". As opposed to, "the guy was threatening me, so I decided to kill him". Same mechanism, same intent, same result, but stated in such a way that it's easier to handle in the aftermath.

mlay
08-24-2008, 11:44 AM
No offense Volfan, but I'm shaking my head at some of this. I've been through the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center and had hours and hours of 4th Amendment (search and seizure--to shoot someone is a seizure) and Use of Force Training. Per my agencies directives and HR 218 I can carry anywhere anytime, including an aircraft.

Shoot until the threat is neutralized...never shoot to kill--are you nuts? I can show you lots of videos of law enforcement using deadly force and shooting someone with one round only to have the perpatrator continue the attack. Thats right, one to the chest and they are still engaging the LEO. There is no law which says you can only shoot one round at a person versus the entire magazine. You continue to fire until the threat is over. If you felt you were authorized to use deadly force, by using the entire magazine, then do it. Then hand cuff or bind them.

Probability vs. possibility? If you can clearly articulate why you felt your life, or anothers, was in danger you have a green light to use deadly force...period. Maybe the guy/gal pulls a fake rubber knife on you but at the time you think it is real and you engage only to find out later the knife was rubber. Well, at the time you felt your life was in danger--good shoot.

How about things like the Castle Doctrine. In Florida and many other states (MN comes to mind), you have the right to use deadly force outside of your home in the face of a threat construed as deadly. This extends the perimeter of your property to include your body.

Personally, I'm not an advocate for every Tom, Dick and Harry wandering the streets with heat. But, I have no problem with pro-gun laws and think education is the key. Carrying firearms in public is a huge responsibility which shouldn't be taken lightly. This thread further solidfies to me that most people DO NOT possess a clear understanding of when and how to use deadly force.
Two to the chest and one to the head.
Anyone having to second guess themselves should not be carrying. It is a very serious responsibility and not to be taken lightly. I could go on and on about varying opinions but the bottom line is be trained, be responsible, and take responsibility for your actions. If your justified in your actions, and you and your family are safe, the rest is all mute points.

JimN
08-24-2008, 12:19 PM
Law abiding people owning guns is a deterrent to criminals, to a point. If the gun is visible, there's always someone else nearby who can be exploited. People leave their guns at home, even if they're legally able to carry and this is a good opportunity for someone to steal a gun during a break-in, which adds more arms to the illegal arsenal. That's a problem and it happens all the time.

I think education should be mandatory for first-time gun owners unless they can prove that they are already trained. Problem is, too many feel this is an invasion of privacy. A lot of people want a gun immediately after being a victim of a crime, or knowing someone who was. This is the who reason for the waiting period and it's a good idea so cooler heads can prevail. These are the people who freeze up when push comes to shove and usually fail to do what they planned- protect themselves and/or family & friends. I also think a thorough personality profile is needed, regardless of how much people hate telling their little secrets. A hothead with gun training is no good. Neither is a gun owner who is depressed, bipolar, schitzophrenic, addicted to something or generally hopeless.

"Two to the chest and one to the head."

That's great. Is anyone standing behind the target? I sure as he!! don't want to be.

One thing I seriously doubt many new gun owners consider is "How do I live with having killed/maimed/paralyzed someone?". Justifying it is one thing, living with it is another.

I sure wish I could only use one hand to count the people I knew who committed suicide with a gun.

bigmac
08-24-2008, 01:11 PM
Headshots are a rather problematic concept, especially for the civilian/casual firearms owner. They are increasingly emphasized in some circles in these days with more worldwide attention on the need for rapid incapacitation (suicide bombers are the most commonly cited example of the need for this). "Two to the chest, one to the head" may be OK for someone on their last day of training at Gunsite Ranch, but IMHO those are pretty perishable skills, and I shudder at the thought of someone who doesn't practice trying for a headshot in a life-or-death encounter. Far better, IMHO, for those folks to go for the center of mass and "shoot well and shoot often".

I confess I am more a proponent of Massad Ayoob than Jeff Cooper. Mas' general concept at LF-1 (which I did several years ago) is that carrying a firearm imbues you with the responsibility of avoiding having to use it, and his teaching is what left me with my concept of semantic phraseology "shoot to stop the threat" to investigating officers and DAs afterward. He does a lot of teaching on managing the legal aftermath. In fact, if you take his course, he will testify for you free of charge in the event of a (righteous) shooting incident. Jeff Cooper's general emphasis is shooting skill and tactics and his general concept is that it's "better to be judged by twelve than to be carried by six". Ayoob's training is more civilian oriented, Cooper's less so. As such, I highly recommend Massad's book In the Gravest Extreme (http://www.amazon.com/Gravest-Extreme-Firearm-Personal-Protection/dp/0936279001) to any civilian who owns a firearm for personal protection. It's a little dated these days relative to current firearm laws, but still very applicable. Also good is his book (also a little out-of-date) The Truth About Self Protection (http://www.amazon.com/Truth-About-Self-Protection/dp/0936279133/ref=pd_sim_b_2)

mlay
08-24-2008, 02:18 PM
I agree with most on here. I have carried concealed for many many years and thank God I have never had to use or even reveal my firearm. 99% of the time my family does not even know I am carrying...that's the point of it being concealed. The point is, for most "two to the chest one to the head", may not be the best solution. Again if someone is standing behind the target, use some common sense, a skilled hunter also does not fire a shot unless he can positively identify not only that target but the field behind it also. However, if you decide to carry legally it comes with great responsibility. I pray every night that I never have to use it, on the other hand I am trained, well seasoned, and keep up to date on my skills and ability and responsibility. If needed I have no problem taking the head shot. Views are right and left but when it comes down to it you take the action you believe is best for you and your family. No matter what course of action you take you must take responsibility for those actions. Then again as mentioned on this thread before, when it comes to legality its all in the wording on justifying those actions.
I have the highest respect than for those of our military and law enforcement but even the best cannot be everywhere at all times and to be frank you have a resonsibility to yourself and family that you will also have to live with if you ignore what you know is right.

TX.X-30 fan
08-24-2008, 02:31 PM
Great post that really sums up what is important.

TX.X-30 fan
08-24-2008, 02:50 PM
Along the same lines I have an armadillo tearing up my back yard. So I finally see the little basterd Friday night bout 12:30 and all I have close is a 380 which I thought at the time would not be that damned loud WRONG. That thing sounded like a howitzer at 12;30 so do I need some type of homemade silencer or just a different weapon.

And yes after my failed assassination attempt I slipped back inside and dimmed the lights. :D

JimN
08-24-2008, 02:59 PM
Any gun is loud when it's the only one being fired.

TX.X-30 fan
08-24-2008, 03:09 PM
Great point JimN.

bigmac
08-24-2008, 03:09 PM
Along the same lines I have an armadillo tearing up my back yard. So I finally see the little basterd Friday night bout 12:30 and all I have close is a 380 which I thought at the time would not be that damned loud WRONG. That thing sounded like a howitzer at 12;30 so do I need some type of homemade silencer or just a different weapon.

And yes after my failed assassination attempt I slipped back inside and dimmed the lights. :D

My experience with armadillos is that you don't need to kill him. If you wait long enough, he'll get hit and killed by a car on some Texas highway. Shooting him now is only hastening the inevitable.

TX.X-30 fan
08-24-2008, 03:23 PM
My experience with armadillos is that you don't need to kill him. If you wait long enough, he'll get hit and killed by a car on some Texas highway. Shooting him now is only hastening the inevitable.




While true my Texas 419 tiff does not deserve this abuse. I know in this age of political correctness and misguided animal rights this may sound barbaric but I believe my little rodent friend needs a hasty trip to meet his maker. ;)

CBergerson
08-24-2008, 03:27 PM
Along the same lines I have an armadillo tearing up my back yard. So I finally see the little basterd Friday night bout 12:30 and all I have close is a 380 which I thought at the time would not be that damned loud WRONG. That thing sounded like a howitzer at 12;30 so do I need some type of homemade silencer or just a different weapon.

And yes after my failed assassination attempt I slipped back inside and dimmed the lights. :D

I use a .22 caliber rifle with birdshot to dispatch the chipmunks in my yard. It doesn't make a very loud noise and I don't have to worry about where a bullet is going. Heck, you even have to shoot some of the tougher ones a second time!! :D

I live just outside of the city limits, so I have neighbors but they are not right next door to me. I asked one neighbor if he had ever heard the shots. He said that he hears a pop every once in a while, but wasn't sure what it was.

TX.X-30 fan
08-24-2008, 03:40 PM
Good idea Chad I'm not sure that would penetrate my little friends armor suit.

And yes I expected better from my liberal buddy. Poor little chipmunks what would Alvin and the boys think. :D

bigmac
08-24-2008, 03:44 PM
I borrowed a buddy's Beeman R1 airgun for muskrats last spring. What an astonishing piece of workmanship that is. Absolutely dead accurate out to about 50 feet. And very quiet. That's the route I'd go for yard critters, but those @#$%^& muskrats must have learned the range of shotguns and air rifles, so in the best tradition of arms escalation, I went to my good old .22 rifle with .22 shorts. Better range than the Beeman, acceptable accuracy, pretty quiet, no ricochet across the lake. If and when I need to escalate further, I've still got .22 long and .22 Long Rifle to go.

ShamrockIV
08-24-2008, 03:49 PM
i like a barrett .50 bmg for critters. oh wait sorry i was having a flashback!!

CBergerson
08-24-2008, 03:50 PM
Good idea Chad I'm not sure that would penetrate my little friends armor suit.

And yes I expected better from my liberal buddy. Poor little chipmunks what would Alvin and the boys think. :D

Ha Ha!! I just watched that movie with my kids. I don't think they made the connection, but I sure felt bad. I try not to do the dirty work right in front of them, but they know what is going on. They both will come and tell me if they spot one out in the yard.

I used to leave the chipmunks alone until last year when I caught one in the garage looking over my boat as a potential residence. I chased him away a couple of times, but he kept coming back!!

TX.X-30 fan
08-24-2008, 03:58 PM
What are the downsides of muskrats??

ProTour X9
08-24-2008, 04:05 PM
What are the downsides of muskrats??

They'll chew your water trampoline to threads, pontoon hoses, build nests under your dock, etc etc. Not that I'd ever shoot one;):rolleyes:

TX.X-30 fan
08-24-2008, 04:07 PM
Ha Ha!! I just watched that movie with my kids. I don't think they made the connection, but I sure felt bad. I try not to do the dirty work right in front of them, but they know what is going on. They both will come and tell me if they spot one out in the yard.
I used to leave the chipmunks alone until last year when I caught one in the garage looking over my boat as a potential residence. I chased him away a couple of times, but he kept coming back!!




No mastercraft chipmunk hotel, I agree that one for sure has to be eliminated. :D


Other than that are they destructive little dudes?


May have two budding young conservatives there. Chad. :D

bigmac
08-24-2008, 04:32 PM
What are the downsides of muskrats??In addition to chewing on boats and water equipment, they burrow into the banks and undermine them. Plus, they're ugly. Not as ugly as armadillos (what is?) but nevertheless...

My only experience with Texas armadillos is fleeting...a brief glimpse as they disappear under my tires. We have armadillos here in Minnesota too, only we call them "raccoons", and sometimes "porcupines". They all appear to serve the same purpose - roadkill.

TX.X-30 fan
08-24-2008, 04:42 PM
They can also be a fashion accessory.



39417

TMCNo1
08-24-2008, 06:25 PM
They can also be a fashion accessory.



39417

Dang, I just blew a hole in my monitor!

mlay
08-24-2008, 06:48 PM
Nice, elusive little critters aren't they.

Dang, I just blew a hole in my monitor!

ProTour X9
08-24-2008, 07:04 PM
Plus, they're ugly. Not as ugly as armadillos (what is?) but nevertheless...

My only experience with Texas armadillos is fleeting...a brief glimpse as they disappear under my tires. We have armadillos here in Minnesota too, only we call them "raccoons", and sometimes "porcupines". They all appear to serve the same purpose - roadkill.

Ugly?? They can't afford make-up.8p:D

Raccoons and Porkypines is good eatin':rolleyes::D

TMCNo1
08-24-2008, 08:02 PM
Possum Stew, a real taste treat, Possum Stew can't be beat!:rolleyes:

BriEOD
08-24-2008, 08:08 PM
Good idea Chad I'm not sure that would penetrate my little friends armor suit.

And yes I expected better from my liberal buddy. Poor little chipmunks what would Alvin and the boys think. :D

As a kid I recall my dad shooting an armadillo with a spear gun he used for scuba diving--deadly and silent. ;)

JimN
08-24-2008, 08:24 PM
Wanna kill an armadillo?

L.A.W.S.

TMCNo1
08-24-2008, 08:30 PM
Road Kill Cafe, "Ya can't beat our meat"!39423

JimN
08-24-2008, 08:52 PM
A local band had a song called 'Road Animal Stew', in the '70s.

TX.X-30 fan
08-24-2008, 09:01 PM
As a kid I recall my dad shooting an armadillo with a spear gun he used for scuba diving--deadly and silent. ;)



I must admit I have not considered that. You make a good point. :D

mlay
08-24-2008, 09:20 PM
Try a potato gun....however it does leave one helluva bang but the kids get a kick out of it. Probably loud enough to scare that critter off your property but if silent is what you are after I like the speargun suggestion. Howitzer about sums up the sound of the potato gun though...fun but we only do that when the neighbors are in on it.

Along the same lines I have an armadillo tearing up my back yard. So I finally see the little basterd Friday night bout 12:30 and all I have close is a 380 which I thought at the time would not be that damned loud WRONG. That thing sounded like a howitzer at 12;30 so do I need some type of homemade silencer or just a different weapon.

And yes after my failed assassination attempt I slipped back inside and dimmed the lights. :D

flipper
08-24-2008, 10:29 PM
Rotten bananas, and worms full of rat poison....or bait a trap with these and take it for a nice country ride.

http://www.aaanimalcontrol.com/blog/armadillobait.html

coz
08-24-2008, 11:23 PM
.........and worms full of rat poison....



How on earth do you get the rat poison inside the worms???:confused: when I go fishing I'm not even sure if I'm hooking head or tail on those squirley little things, they have mouths??? :confused: hmmmm???? :confused: gonna have to research this one :banana:

JimN
08-24-2008, 11:40 PM
There's a wide band on a worm that's closer to the head. Also, if you watch one, it wants to move forward, not backward. The end that seems to be searching is the head, although if you cut one in half, the two ends will crawl away.

Signed, Cliff Claven

flipper
08-25-2008, 11:44 AM
[QUOTE=coz;532566]How on earth do you get the rat poison inside the worms???:confused: when I go fishing I'm not even sure if I'm hooking head or tail on those squirley little things, they have mouths??? :confused: hmmmm???? :confused: gonna have to research this one :QUOTE]

I guess it's going to be a while until we see coz again.:D

bigmac
08-25-2008, 12:39 PM
There's a wide band on a worm that's closer to the head. Also, if you watch one, it wants to move forward, not backward. The end that seems to be searching is the head, although if you cut one in half, the two ends will crawl away.

Signed, Cliff Claven

Dear Cliffy:

The wide band you are referring to is called the clitellum.

http://www.urbanext.uiuc.edu/worms/images/anatomy/anatomy1.gif

http://www.urbanext.uiuc.edu/worms/images/anatomy/clitellum.gif

TMCNo1
08-25-2008, 01:17 PM
TMI, TMI!:rolleyes::D

TMCNo1
08-25-2008, 01:56 PM
Question, if there's such a thing as Tourist Season, why can't we shoot them?:eek3::rolleyes::D

flipper
08-25-2008, 02:29 PM
You can just have to do it right

coz
08-25-2008, 04:47 PM
[QUOTE=coz;532566]How on earth do you get the rat poison inside the worms??? when I go fishing I'm not even sure if I'm hooking head or tail on those squirley little things, they have mouths??? hmmmm???? gonna have to research this one :QUOTE]

I guess it's going to be a while until we see coz again.:D

Almost finished with the research, George came by so now were gonna go dig for some????:confused: what were we talking about again???:confused:
http://earthhopenetwork.net/bush%20art/stoned_bush_bong.jpg

VOLFAN
08-26-2008, 09:55 AM
One reason why not to vote for the Obama bin Biden ticket....

Skipper
08-26-2008, 09:58 AM
QUOTE=ChadBergerson;532250]Anyone that feels the need to brag about carrying around a loaded gun has, in my opinion, already disqualified themselves as being mentally competent to carry said gun.[/QUOTE]

Oooh...Chad, please stop, you're hurting my feelings. :cry:

You snivelling little hypocrite, I would hazard a guess that discharging a firearm in the front yard of a residential neighborhood is a violation of the law, not to mention reckless or at least wanton disregard for the safety of anybody who may be within the surface danger zone of your 22 caliber rifle. ;)

bigmac
08-26-2008, 10:10 AM
I don't see the hypocrisy. I do see a difference in mindset between using a .22 rifle with bird shot (outside of city limits) for varmint control on one's own property and struttin' down the street 24/7 with a cocked and locked .45 in one's belt.

Skipper
08-26-2008, 10:57 AM
I expected you to chime in defense of Chad based on your previous post.

I'll try to help you to understand. I submit that there is a tremendous difference between a person trained and licsensed to carry a concealed firearm, who has more than twenty years professional training and experience with firearms and combat experience, who is well aware of the operation, capabilities, and limitations of his personal weapon... who keeps that weapon where it is readily accessible in the event that a lethal threat situation is presented; but aside from nearly twenty thousand rounds of practice fire a year never displays, points, threatens or fires that weapon in public. This compared to some schmuck that recklessly, and in direct violation of the law, snaps off rounds at chipmunks in a residential neighborhood.

If you are not capable of discerning the difference then you are in denial.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
08-26-2008, 11:43 AM
anyone see the new Sig Sauer I got??


It rules.


Custom Shop in Reverse two tone.

CBergerson
08-26-2008, 11:44 AM
QUOTE=ChadBergerson;532250]Anyone that feels the need to brag about carrying around a loaded gun has, in my opinion, already disqualified themselves as being mentally competent to carry said gun.

Oooh...Chad, please stop, you're hurting my feelings. :cry:

You snivelling little hypocrite, I would hazard a guess that discharging a firearm in the front yard of a residential neighborhood is a violation of the law, not to mention reckless or at least wanton disregard for the safety of anybody who may be within the surface danger zone of your 22 caliber rifle. ;)[/QUOTE]

It's not my front yard, it is the back yard. I live outside of the city limits, which was stated in the post. My nearest neighbor is at least 500 feet away. The range of birdshot must be all of 20 yards, if even that. You should pay attention before going into a rage.

Your angry reaction just reinforces the point of my original post.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
08-26-2008, 11:50 AM
why didnt someone tell me there was an interesting thread over here?

6ballsisall
08-26-2008, 11:51 AM
why didnt someone tell me there was an interesting thread over here?

Get your fun in UMP. I give this thread less than 24 hours. :popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

Does anyone know what Hoosier Bob is drinking? Lakey and UMP wanna know.

CBergerson
08-26-2008, 11:53 AM
One reason why not to vote for the Obama bin Biden ticket....

None of these are true. It is just desperate propaganda from a party that has nothing to offer other than lies and fear.

Our country has a lot more problems to take care of than to worry about something that will never happen anyways. It would be political suicide to too strongly address the gun issue.

Maristar210
08-26-2008, 11:57 AM
Hi Chad.


Barak Obama was out jogging one morning along the parkway when he
tripped, fell over the bridge railing and landed in the creek
below.
;
Before the Secret Service guys could get to him, 3 kids who were
fishing pulled him out of the water. He was so grateful he offered the
kids whatever they wanted.

The first kid said, 'I want to go to Disneyland '

Barak said, 'No problem, I'll take you there on my special Senator's
airplane.'

The second kid said, 'I want a new pair of Nike Air Jordan shoes'.

Barak said, 'I'll get them for you and even have Michael Jordan sign
them!'


The third kid said, ' I want a motorized wheelchair with a built in TV
and stereo headset!'

Barak was a little perplexed by this and said,
'But you don't look like you're handicapped.'

The kid said, 'I will be after my dad finds out I saved your *** from drowning

Maristar210
08-26-2008, 12:00 PM
I must admit my neighbor has an OBAMA sign in her front yard and the tire tracks leading to and from that very sign in her yard are that of my GMC pickup truck.


Hi Chad :D

Do you go by hanging chad or just Chad?

CBergerson
08-26-2008, 12:02 PM
Hi Chad.




This same joke was posted earlier today in the jokes thread. It is simply a variation of an old one where you plug in any politician's name. What does it have to do with this discussion?

Maristar210
08-26-2008, 12:04 PM
This same joke was posted earlier today in the jokes thread. It is simply a variation of an old one where you plug in any politician's name. What does it have to do with this discussion?

Nothing, that's what.

(can't you tell I am just messing with you?)

Sodar
08-26-2008, 12:07 PM
Thread closed.