PDA

View Full Version : Fuel Pump 101


Pages : [1] 2

boofer
08-11-2008, 12:01 AM
Okay, I am starting this post to help educate ourselves and possibly get to the bottom of the MC fuel pump problem. I have included a gazillion pictures. So, please bear with me.

Is there a problem with the MC fuel delivery system? I think so. An unofficial poll on another website showed that MC has a 4 to 1 failure rate compared with other ski/wakeboard boats. Visit the other boat manufacturers forums and type in "fuel pump" and you will get only a handful (if that many) results. Do the same search on this forum and you will be reading for hours. In an email reply to my questioning the problem, the representative said, "Federal Mogul did make a pump body change to help with recurring pump failures and high warranty claims." "Recurring pump failures" and "high warranty claims?" Sounds like a problem to me!

MC did extend the warranty from one year to two for the fuel pump. And, they added a "warning" to the manual of NEW boats about running with less than 1/4 of a tank. Any sane person will tell you that this does not fix the problem. IMO, MC should of engineered a fix and done a 100% recall. It is the only fair thing to do for the 1,000's of people who paid top dollar for the best.

Okay, so let me get started with the pictures. The pictures are more or less to help those who have never seen a fuel pump module in detail. The entire process of removing the module and taking it apart was a learning experience. I have posted quite a few times regarding this fuel pump issue and I have been wrong in some assumptions. But, I am learning.

Well, here is the fuel pump module from the outside.
NOTE: the 12 bolts that mount the pump to the tank should be torque to 49 inch pounds (thanks JimN for the info).
http://carpron.com/multisite/d/241769-2/Picture+171.jpg

Remove the 12 bolts, the vent hose, and the wiring harness and it comes out like this.
http://carpron.com/multisite/d/241776-2/Picture+173.jpg

I removed the fuel line to the motor with a special tool. This allows the module to come completely out.

Remove the 3 screws on the metal sleeve and this is what you see on the inside.
http://carpron.com/multisite/d/246504-2/Picture+215.jpg

The fuel pump is held in by a plastic support at the bottom of the module. The smooth black fuel hose is quite rigid and in my module it was kinked (quite a bit IMO).

Here is the underside of the top portion with the hose already removed. The clamp on this hose is a one-time usage clamp.
http://carpron.com/multisite/d/246507-2/Picture+216.jpg

boofer
08-11-2008, 12:12 AM
The round thing on the top of the module is the regulator. The pump sends fuel to the regulator at a certain pressure. The regulator decreases the pressure to match what the motor requires. This means that there is more fuel going to the regulator than is needed by the motor. Any excess fuel is squirt back into the tank.
http://carpron.com/multisite/d/246510-2/Picture+217.jpg

A clear view of the pump inside the module.
http://carpron.com/multisite/d/246513-2/Picture+218.jpg

Remove the 4 screws holding in the pump bracket and here is the pump (culprit?).
http://carpron.com/multisite/d/246516-2/Picture+219.jpg

Nice QC (quality control). Look at the rubber bushing. Geezus!
http://carpron.com/multisite/d/246519-2/Picture+220.jpg

boofer
08-11-2008, 12:19 AM
The bottom of the module.
http://carpron.com/multisite/d/246522-2/Picture+221.jpg

The black hose on my pump was quite twisted and kinked. It is hard to see from this photo. But, my hose is kinked enough to reduce the allowable flow of fuel at least 30%.
http://carpron.com/multisite/d/246538-2/Picture+226.jpg

Add a little more bend and you get NO flow.
http://carpron.com/multisite/d/246541-2/Picture+227.jpg

The pump.
http://carpron.com/multisite/d/246532-2/Picture+224.jpg


The nomenclature on the pump is not a serial number or anything like that. It is a manufacturers number and cannot be crossreferenced (I tried).

boofer
08-11-2008, 12:28 AM
Now here is the bottom of the module. It has a circular disk on the bottom.
http://carpron.com/multisite/d/246547-2/Picture+229.jpg

I am not sure why it is there. It is buoyant and has the 3 channels that you can see. When it is "up" the pump can draw fuel. When it is down fuel cannot be drawn by the pump.

Here is a picture of the picture of the top of this disk. The small rubber tab in the middle goes into the small hole at the bottom of the module.
http://carpron.com/multisite/d/241831-2/Picture+209.jpg

Here is a side view of the small disk. This is actually from the new module and it is shaped differently than the old one. The old one does not have the 2 different diameters.
http://carpron.com/multisite/d/241834-2/Picture+210.jpg

boofer
08-11-2008, 12:42 AM
The bottom of the module without the small disk.
http://carpron.com/multisite/d/241794-2/Picture+194.jpg

Now, some observations. The new module has a corrugated clear hose to the regulator.
http://carpron.com/multisite/d/241785-2/Picture+188.jpg

It retains its shape even when bent. But, somewhere on this board, I read a post (with pictures) from a new owner who had these types of hoses burst. I haven't the time to look it up.

The small black bypass hose on the outside does not line up with the groove made for it. You can even see a mark where it should be. What is up with this? Piss poor QC in my book.
http://carpron.com/multisite/d/241779-2/Picture+181.jpg

I tested the small disk. It is buoyant. Almost like a piece of cork or wood.

I was very curious about the filter and how quickly fuel will pass through it. I poured some gas in a pan and placed the filter in the gas. The filter filled up quickly. So, there is virtually no restriction to the flow of gas through this filter. I had originally thought that the 10 micron filter was too restrictive. Not true. The only problem (if you want to call it one) with the filter is that due to its shape, it cannot draw gas from lower than the bottom lip.

A so so picture of the filter.
http://carpron.com/multisite/d/241782-2/Picture+182.jpg

boofer
08-11-2008, 01:20 AM
So, what is the problem with this design? I really do not know.

1. Gas flows through the filter fine. No poblems here.

2. I submerged the module with the small disk installed and it did take an inch or so of gas to "unplug" the hole (which leads to the pump). I would really like to know the purpose of this small disk. Problem? Possibly.

3. The kinked fuel line to the regulator. It was definitely kinked more than it should be. It would be creating a fairly significant restriction to the flow from the pump. Would this "back" pressure harm the pump? I do believe that it does.

4. The pump itself. I am almost certain that it is a poorly designed pump.

In my reading, it appears that this rotary vane style pump had too small of tolerances and prone to failure. Read this from Carter. http://www.carterfueldelivery.com/fuelpumps/pdf/training/CarterFTS9.pdf I would really like to know if GM issued a recall regarding these pumps. If so, then I think that we should get the same recall.

I emailed MC and inquired about fuel pump failures. The first replay sent to me basically said that MC was not aware of any fuel pump problems. I replied with disagreement stating the unofficial poll I ran and the multitude of posts on their own website. Their reply stated that there was a design problem with the Carter pumps. It also said that they (MC) was working with 2 pump suppliers "to reduce the failure rates, and durability regarding low fuel situations." Apparently these 2 suppliers are Carter with their turbine style pumps and these Milinium pumps. I have asked if my new module contains one of the new pumps. I have not yet received a reply.

I am upset that MC is not being more proactive with this situation. And, apparently the situation has been around for many years. I opted for MC over the other boats because I was willing to dig for the cash to have the best. I would not trade my boat for anything. But, I feel somewhat let down. Instead of getting the engineers off of their butts, MC has done what they can to skirt the issue.

I am going to visit a Federated auto parts store hopefully this week. I went to 3 major auto parts stores and no one could get a cross referenced pump to replace the Carter one. The fellow I spoke to at Federated said he wanted to help me out. He has 18 years in the business and has had his own dealings with hard to find parts. As many of you might know, a call to Carter/Federal Mogul will get you nothing. MC has forbid them to give out any details/specs with regards to these fuel system modules.

Okay, for now my brain is fried. I got 2 nasal douches out on the water today and my eyes are starting to hurt from looking at this computer screen. Please feel free to chime in. I will update as soon as I get by Federated and if I hear anything else from MC.

bigmac
08-11-2008, 08:11 AM
Fuel pump failures in later-model MasterCrafts are a pretty well-known phenomenon across the industry, and especially on this discussion forum. As a "victim" myself, I congratulate you on taking this on and appreciate the photographic step-by-step.

I recall that GM had problems with their in-tank fuel pumps years ago, but I don't know the specific problem. I assume they use Carter pumps. I've owned GM trucks for many years and I've never heard of any recalls - at least not for any vehicle I've owned. I did have a trouble code on a previous truck that was read as failure to maintain pressure, and I was told it was due to a leaking internal valve. I tightened the gas cap, had them clear the code, and basically ignored the problem. It never recurred in 30,000 additional miles.

Having dissected your fuel pump, what is your opinion of the oft-proposed mechanism of failure that fuel is only filtered below 1/4 tank and that if/when the filter plugs up, failure to pump cooling fuel is the reason for failure? Were you able to detect such an arrangement?

BearCreek
08-11-2008, 10:41 AM
Great, job Boofer. I would have to say that a big part of the problem is the cheap plastic fuel line between the pump and module. This is very clear because, that seems to be the only thing they changed. WOW!!! That new line looks like a even bigger problem, waiting to happen, you would have thuaght they would have spent the extra money to do it right. When I replaced my hose I think it totaled approx. $3.00 bucks. Two hose clamps and about 8" of high preasure fuel line. I just made a small loop and connected it to fuel pump then regulator, and it has plenty of room to move with out kinking.

I would suggest anyone told they need a new module as I was. They should first look at replacing that line. My MC dealer said the pump runs but no preasure, pumps bad $450.00. Sound familiar? Actually, I would replace that line before it causes you problems. I have a $740.00 tow bill, because that stupid little hose.

After looking at the link to the GM fuel pump issue, it appears to me that the wireing harness is to blame not used on MC. If you close at the picture of the new GM module you will see a thick black fuel line in their module, HHHMMM very intersting.

BearCreek
08-11-2008, 10:50 AM
boofer, have you tested your old pump.

DanC
08-11-2008, 11:22 AM
Outstanding post Boofer, thanks.
So what about this floating disk? Sounds like it is designed to only allow the pump to run if there is enough fuel to pick up? So is this mechanism failing, allowing the pump to run when the tank is empty, thus running dry and burning up?

BearCreek
08-11-2008, 11:35 AM
Befor I ever had a fuel pump problem I had ran my boat on empty many times to the point were I actually ran out of gas at least three times. I actually had to put a gallon in just to get to the gas station. I have a short trip from my marinia and were I ride with a gas station on the way, so when I read all this buisness about not running under a 1/4 tank I was curious as to why that is.
Then I seen that it only applied to the newer MC's. After closer inspection, I noticed the new MC's only have one line from the module to the motor and mine has two, supply and return. When my boat is below a quarter tank and I turn my key on the pump primes the lines and dumps back in to the canister. While running it, it continues to fill the canister above the tank fuel level, because the pump rate is faster then the fuel will excape from the bottom of the filter. If you have ever pulled your model you see that the fuel dosen't exit the canister to quickly. This keeps my canister full which submerges the pump in fuel to keep it cool. Since In the new MC's you don't have a return line, I would suspect that the pump will continue to pull only the fuel through the filter, in low fuel situations, leaving the pump exposed, without the fuel in the canister it has a less cooling property's surrounding the pump, hense over heating. NOt sure but something someone should look in to.
Maybe someone with the singal line setup can try and run their boat at a half tank and pull their regulator off the top of the module to see if the canister is full. On my boat I was at a 1/4 tank and the fuel almost overflowed out of the whole on top the module (were the regulator was).

ChrisG
08-11-2008, 02:49 PM
boofer...excellent post. Very nice pictures. I actually just replaced my fuel pump a few weeks ago (pump only). I can honestly say I wouldn't have been able to complete the job correctly with out the help from everyone on this board.

rhsprostar
08-11-2008, 02:59 PM
Boofer
Keep up the good work!

boofer
08-11-2008, 03:14 PM
Bigmac, I am pretty certain that the filter is not restricting the flow of fuel at any level. I poured gas into a pan to about 3 inches deep. I placed the filter in the pan and it immediately filled up with gas. I was expecting to see it trickle in, but that was not the case. The level of the gas inside the filter equaled the level of gas on the outside of the filter within milliseconds. So, the filter does not restrict fuel. By the way, this is the replacement filter I used on my old module only a few months ago prior to replacing the whole fuel module. The new module came with a new filter.

I am really puzzled though by this small black disk. I cannot see any useful purpose. I basically used the same pan of gas. I slowly sunk the bottom of the module in the pan of gas (without the pump so that I could see the gas). Gas would not populate the small area at the bottom of the module until the module was all the way in the gas. I cannot recall now if I had the filter attached. I do not think that it was attached since I was trying to see what effect this disk has on flow to the pump. Basically the disk floats. When there is sufficient gas to float it, it will unplug the hole allowing fuel to go to the pump. If it is not floating the hole is closed and fuel will not get to the pump. Plus, I would gander that the pump is able to somewhat pull this small "valve" open when it is running. But, that would make it a restriction. I cannot really say one way or the other what the purpose of this disk is. It would keep air out of the pump at low fuel levels. But, regardless, air in the pump or no fuel available to the pump equals overheat.

Bear, it is the fuel that goes through the pump that cools the pump. The fuel on the outside can aide in cooling, but the pump is designed to be actively cooled by the flow of fuel through the pump.

I am 50/50 with that "newer" fuel hose form the pump to the regulator. The old hose was definitely "substantial," but it did have the noticeable kink. The new hose is much stiffer than it looks. And it flexes well. I wonder if the corrugation helps reduce the flow to the regulator and eases the job of the regulator without creating any backpressure. But, one of the board members posted his problems with the dual pump (Milinium?) setup on his boat. Here is the link to his post. http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=23709&highlight=fuel+hose

Remember, the Carter brochure is just that; a brochure. The electrical issue (melted contacts) was experienced by a board member. He posted pictures just recently. But, I did learn that the pump was too restrictive and easily clogged which led to the high failure rate. I believe that I found this while researching the GM problems with the Carter pumps and the MC representative echoed the same information to me in the email. The pump was redesigned to be less restrictive and more tolerant of debris. When I say "debris," we are talking microscopic.

What I see for now is a poorly designed pump. It was replaced in GM motors. So, why not do it in ours? I am still awaiting a reply to my question as to whether or not my new module came with the newer turbine style pump. If not, then I must really question MC's policies. They apparently thought there was enough of a problem to use a different pump(s) on newer boats. If they are not actively trying to get these newer pumps in older boats (replacement modules with the newer pumps) then I must call foul.

PeterN
08-19-2008, 08:10 PM
Kudos Boofer, great post !!!

I own a 2006 X-45 with an L-18 engine. Last week I had to change my fuel pump the second time (same happened last summer during a storm 8p ). Let's say, I am somehow experienced replacing the fuel pump.

Because my MC is out of warranty, I tried to find out if I can get this tiny fuel pump somewhere without replacing the whole kit (and being charged with 600 EUR, roughly 900 USD).

I was lucky, the MEAT & DORIA 76201 is exactly the fuel pump I needed, bought in a standard car parts shop in Salò (Lake Garda, Italy) for small money. Obviously this pump is standard in Fiat automobiles.


So what about this floating disk? Sounds like it is designed to only allow the pump to run if there is enough fuel to pick up?

This "floating disk" is a valve, holding back fuel in the plastic container, even if the fuel tank is almost empty.

My analysis: both pumps has been burned due to lack of cooling or bad manufacturing quality. I never ever ran my boat below 1/4 tank. This "floating disk" valve might be the key for all problems. If this valve is not floating properly, the container reservoir will not be filled properly with enough fuel, the pump run out of fuel and cooling.

FlatBoard
08-20-2008, 02:53 PM
Great follow up on the fuel pump Boofer!! I have a new pump still in the box from MC, and will be returning to my boat next week to install.. Thanks to your thread I am able to handle this myself thus saving me a fortune on labor and a ton of gas not having to tow to the shop. I will print the pictures for an intallation guide and pull apart the old pump to see if it has any of the issues discussed here.

You have a VIP privaleges any time you are in Lake Cumberland!! Just look me up and I will spring for free rides and beverages. :D:D

boofer
08-21-2008, 09:36 PM
PeterN,

I must caution you about using an aftermarket pump. Just because it may fit does not mean that it is able to meet the demands of your motor. Please be careful!!!

FlatBoard,

Thanks for the kudos. I hope the install goes well for you. Just be real careful with the 12 bolts that go on the module. It took me several minutes to ease each bolt in correctly. Despite the fact that the tank was empty, the bolt holes did not align perfectly. I will take you up on your offer if I find my way to your neck of the woods.

boofer
08-21-2008, 10:07 PM
Okay boys and girls, this is getting a little deep.

I finally received a reply from MC. They said that the pump in my old module and in my new module should be the newer turbine style pump. They said that the change was made in the '02-'03 time frame.

So, is it a turbine style pump? I have emailed Carter/Federal Mogul and politely requested that they tell me how to determine if a pump is the turbine pump. I know from calling them that they have an agreement with MC to not reveal any detailed specifications. I am hoping that they will comply with my request since I can simply dismantle this pump and verify which kind of pump it is.

Now, if both pumps are the turbine style pumps, we are back to square one. I have been to the Federated store and spoke with the fellow I mentioned a while back. He has ordered a pump that he believes will work. I am going to try to get by there tomorrow and see what he has. When I showed him the complete fuel module he recognized it minus the top plate which is specific to our boats. He even showed me the filter in his catalog. But, he was unable to draw a specific cross reference based on any of the nomenclature on the pump or the module. The "71-342S" which is on the top plate mimics Carter part numbers (7x-xxx). I am also going to ask him if he can tell if my old pump is a turbine style pump.

I am not feeling any good vibes right now. I honestly think that both the old pump and the new pump are NOT the turbine style pumps. In the back of my mind I am thinking CALS. If it gets to that point, then at least maybe we can finally get some concrete answers and possibly a REAL fix.

PeterN
08-22-2008, 07:03 AM
PeterN,

I must caution you about using an aftermarket pump. Just because it may fit does not mean that it is able to meet the demands of your motor. Please be careful!!!


Thanks boofer for the warning, but the only thing a fuel pump does, is pumping fuel - with a specific operation pressure. The MEAT & DORIA pump delivers 3.8 bar (= 55.114 PSI at sea level), which exactly meets the L-18 specs between 53 and 58 PSI. The worst case can be that the pump is not working anymore - this happened twice in 8 month with the genuine Carter pump :cool:

rhsprostar
08-22-2008, 09:10 AM
PeterN
How did you ever cross reference that pump!? Good work. WHat is the GPH? or LPH? That would be your only other concern regarding capacity other than pressure.
;)

PeterN
08-22-2008, 07:03 PM
How did you ever cross reference that pump!?

Hmmmm... I went into a car accessories shop in Salò, Italy (http://maps.google.com/?q=Sal%C3%B2+Brescia,+Lombardy,+Italy&ie=UTF8&hl=en&cd=2&geocode=0,45.607004,10.522309&z=13) (I stay here usually in summer) and tried to find a similar fuel pump in their cataloque.

WHat is the GPH? or LPH?
Honestly: I don't know. But I can't feel a difference in operating, performance or consumption. And last not least: my V8 doesn't sound like a Fiat :)

sinister_designs
08-22-2008, 07:38 PM
GPH = gallons per hour
LPH = litres per hour

it is a very important thing for a engine as starving it of fuel by way of pressure or flow will cause detonation and ultimately engine failure.
Be very careful PeterN.

JimN
08-22-2008, 08:21 PM
Also, a high pressure pump won't necessarily push high volume and vise-versa.

woody
08-22-2008, 08:53 PM
Thank you for taking on the mantel of 'MC fuel pumps ain't great', ours ran out of warantee a while ago and now is an expensive habit.

This is highly interesting seeing as our 2005 X2 averages 400 - 600 hours before burning out another fuel pump because apparently some of our less attentive club drivers are 'naughty' and let the fuel level drop below 1/4 tank..............

If that were really true of "fuel pumps'' my 400 000 mile Volvo estate would have had a lot of fuel pumps as I do not fill up until almost empty.

If someone really gets to the bottom of this, I would love to know so that we can re-enter the discussion with Mastercraft Great Britain without having to use rude words.
As a Process Engineer in the oil industry that designs the plants that provide the gas/petrol/lpg that runs our boats, being fobbed off "you do not know what you are talking about" is irksome.

I am not posting this in a derogatroy manner - but as a statement of fact that I as a dedicate multi-mastercraft owner believe the firm should be taking in hand and resolving to ensure its status as number one.

woody
08-22-2008, 09:23 PM
LPH versus GHP, err there's around 4.54 litres per gallon, erm if that's an imperaial gallon, but as we're an american site it's around 3.5 litres per american gallon I think.

Reason for the difference in between imperail and american gallons is something to do with a tea party in boston perhaps....maybe my elders and betters can correct me.

JimN
08-22-2008, 10:08 PM
"The metric system is the tool of the devil! My car gets forty rods to the hogshead and that's the way I likes it."

PeterN
08-23-2008, 02:04 PM
GPH = gallons per hour
LPH = litres per hour

it is a very important thing for a engine as starving it of fuel by way of pressure or flow will cause detonation and ultimately engine failure.
Be very careful PeterN.


Hmmmm??? If the pressure is right, in corollary the flow must be right as well. I checked the pressure on this little valve and it had constantly between 3.8 and 3.9 bar (55 PSI) - no matter what rpm or load.

I'll try to find out the flow rate of the MEAT & DORIA pump. What are the GPH/LPH specs for the L-18 ?

boofer
09-13-2008, 05:39 PM
Well, I haven't had the time to return to the Federated shop since I got busy with work and "think" I might of fractured a few ribs wakeboarding 3 weeks ago (yeah, it still hurts).

I forgot to ask this guy at Federated about the small disk at the bottom of the module. Does anyone know why it is there? The flow of gas into the bottom portion of the module was definitely restricted by this disk. The module had to be submersed deeper in gas before gas would flow into the area that supplies the pump.

Despite being sidetracked, I will do my best to get us some good information and maybe a fix.

JimN
09-13-2008, 05:41 PM
It shouldn't restrict- it's like a check valve that lifts when gas flows into the pump and drops down when the gas tries to flow out again.

JimN
09-13-2008, 05:43 PM
Woody- "Apologies any accidental use of sarcasm, cynicism or confusion."

Oy! What's that supposed to mean?

JimN
09-13-2008, 05:44 PM
The flow rate I read was 1 pint in 20 seconds.


Speaking of pints, Doug- how's that beer coming?

Chicago190
09-13-2008, 06:16 PM
Maybe I'm crazy, but why doesn't Mastercraft just go back to the old external fuel pumps that seem to be bulletproof?

JimN
09-13-2008, 07:06 PM
Because the newer motors need more pressure than the older ones and that requires the pump to push the fuel. The Coast Guard has a lot to say about how fuel is pumped in a boat..

bigmac
09-13-2008, 07:28 PM
The point of contention is that there are at least two other boat brands that use Indmar engines, yet don't seem to have problems with either inadequate fuel pressure or repeatedly failing fuel pumps.

JimN
09-13-2008, 07:32 PM
I would guess that the fuel mapping takes that into account, but I also don't know if/why an alternative hasn't been explored.

Chicago190
09-14-2008, 12:01 AM
Because the newer motors need more pressure than the older ones and that requires the pump to push the fuel. The Coast Guard has a lot to say about how fuel is pumped in a boat..

The LT1 motors needed just as much fuel pressure and had no problems with external pumps. I can understand the Coast Guard part though.

bigmac
09-14-2008, 09:09 AM
The concept of in-tank fuel pumps is attractive, and if they worked reliably then MasterCraft should be applauded for bringing it to boating. Unfortunately, they DON'T work reliably, at least if one assumes that postings here in this MC-specific website are reflective of the general run of MasterCraft owners.

Looks like a case of an excellent engineering concept with poor implementation. Unfortunately, there is no definitive information on WHY they fail, and it's especially unfortunate that MasterCraft has not been forthcoming on defining the problem for its customers, nor have they offered any assurance that they are even AWARE of the problem, let alone working hard to find a way to fix it.

JimN
09-14-2008, 11:29 AM
PeterN said he measured 55PSI on his pump and the LT-1 external pump put out 30, 40 at the most. 15-25 psi makes a lot of difference. With higher power, the pulse width can be controlled more accurately, not that they're doing tremendously fine adjustments, but once the 02 sensor came in, it could tweak the fuel delivery more than without the 02 sensor.

Chicago190
09-14-2008, 12:41 PM
I know both Weldon and Aeromotive make external pumps that can supply fuel for 1000 HP cars running in excess of 70 PSI of fuel pressure, and if anything they are more reliable than running 2 or 3 internal pumps like other people do. I don't see how the application would be different on a boat.

bigmac
09-14-2008, 01:04 PM
I know both Weldon and Aeromotive make external pumps that can supply fuel for 1000 HP cars running in excess of 70 PSI of fuel pressure, and if anything they are more reliable than running 2 or 3 internal pumps like other people do. I don't see how the application would be different on a boat.

You don't see it, but obviously the USCG does.

Not trying to excuse MasterCraft. Their unreliable fuel systems should have been addressed years ago. I'm sure it's hard getting a fuel system approved, but just because it's hard doesn't excuse the fact that MasterCraft in-tank fuel pumps fail with a regularity that appears to be well outside the norm.

JimN
09-14-2008, 02:02 PM
They still need fuel at the inlet. I really think this is where the problem lies here. I think the size and shape of the tank is what causes this issue. 5 gallons across 48" is not a lot of volume, when the boat is under hard acceleration goes to the wrong part of the tank. If you want a pump that's mounted over the front of the tank to pick up any fuel, accelerating and sloshing fuel to the back, plus raising the bow- not a chance in he!! of that working.

Chicago190
09-14-2008, 04:31 PM
They still need fuel at the inlet. I really think this is where the problem lies here. I think the size and shape of the tank is what causes this issue. 5 gallons across 48" is not a lot of volume, when the boat is under hard acceleration goes to the wrong part of the tank. If you want a pump that's mounted over the front of the tank to pick up any fuel, accelerating and sloshing fuel to the back, plus raising the bow- not a chance in he!! of that working.

Yeah the fuel sloshing crossed my mind as well. I figured since they were able to do it in the past and supply enough fuel to a 330 HP motor, along with the fact that I have seen many cars at the track getting the nose higher than any boat at take off.

In regards to the Coast Guard thing. I find it interesting that they seem to have done a 180 on fuel pump regulations. The only info I could find was from 2002 and the fuel pumps were required to be within 12 inches of the engine http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2002/julqtr/pdf/33cfr183.570.pdf

bigmac
09-14-2008, 04:39 PM
In regards to the Coast Guard thing. I find it interesting that they seem to have done a 180 on fuel pump regulations. The only info I could find was from 2002 and the fuel pumps were required to be within 12 inches of the engine http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2002/julqtr/pdf/33cfr183.570.pdf

I prefer to think that compliance with Coast Guard requirements is the reason MC's fuel pump arrangement is so problematic. The alternative is to believe that MasterCraft a) doesn't know it's a problem or b) knows it's a problem but figures it's cheaper to ignore it rather than redesign the system. After all...it's only on a 1 year warranty (maybe 2, according to recent rumors).

JimN
09-14-2008, 07:19 PM
The fuel sloshing should only be a problem if the acceleration is sustained for longer than the reserve chamber's capacity can run the engine. As far as the pump being within 12" of the motor, that's why the old pumps were on there in the first place, because the CG apparently didn't understand how it's possible to stop the fuel flow if there's a breach in the fuel line if it's between the pump and motor.

I have an idea of how this problem could be eliminated completely, but I don't have a boat like the ones that are affected to use as a test subject. Sucks to be me, eh?

tcmercil
07-20-2009, 09:24 AM
The pump replacement wasn't a problem at all, but what about the hose? I pulled the old flexible line out and replaced it with new 1/4" black tubing with stainless hose clamps, problem is - it appears to kink towards the top of it?

Can you order the flexible 1/4 to 5/16 hose that was on there - or what have others done?

NeilM
07-31-2009, 10:50 PM
anybody know where the pictures went?

NeilM
07-31-2009, 10:51 PM
my fuel pump just quit.....

TX.X-30 fan
08-01-2009, 02:36 PM
anybody know where the pictures went?




I still see them but I stayed at a holiday inn express last night. :D


Easy fix Neil, keep this thread bumped and ask a question if ya need some help.

NeilM
08-02-2009, 02:21 AM
Thanks TX X-30. I guess I forgot how slow the wifi out at the vacation place really is. The pictures finally showed up.

Thanks to Boofer and others, I replaced the pump itself with a Delphi FE 0237 from NAPA ($220), and I'm back in business.

Once again, TeamTalk came through. Thanks everyone!

bigmac
08-02-2009, 08:27 AM
The pump replacement wasn't a problem at all, but what about the hose? I pulled the old flexible line out and replaced it with new 1/4" black tubing with stainless hose clamps, problem is - it appears to kink towards the top of it?

Can you order the flexible 1/4 to 5/16 hose that was on there - or what have others done?

Yes, the hose is a problem. Replacing it with standard 1/4 inch fuel hose is apparently a bad idea since there isn't any 1/4 inch fuel line that is suitable for submersion in gasoline. Looks like you have to re-use the hose that's in there, like TX X-30 did.

That part (hose) isn't available from MasterCraft since their repair paradigm is to just replace the entire $441 module, hose and all. The module mfgr, (Carter) has gone to that corrugated non-kinking hose on their new pumps, but no one has been able to find a source for that.

The two mfgrs of submersible fuel line are Delphi and Gates, neither of which makes the stuff in 1/4 inch size.

Anyway, nice find on the pump - yet another replacement model to be added to the other three we know of. I note that this FE0237 pump is readily available from multiple sources, although it appears to be quite a bit more expensive than the others.

Glad you're back on the water, although you need to be careful about the longevity of the hose that you replaced. According to most sources, it will only last somewhere between a week and one year before it deteriorates and either leaks or pops off the fittings.

boofer
08-04-2009, 01:47 AM
I'm back. I finally went to the Federated auto parts store. After some discussion and looking through the catalog, he came up with his best replacement based upon the Carter pump. He recommended a Carter P74117. The P74117 is used in a Ford Mustang (not sure what year). This pump is identical to the Carter pump that I removed from my boat with respect to appearance. The only difference is the electrical contacts. They did not have the extra piece (circled in red) that was on my original pump.

http://carpron.com/multisite/d/362229-2/Picture+224a.JPG

IN this picture you can see where the electrical contact (green line) would be without the extra piece.

http://carpron.com/multisite/d/362232-2/Picture+226a.JPG

I do not have an idea why the extra piece is there. This one is beyond me. It seems to distance the contacts further away from the hose or hose clamp. The P74117 (and I would gander any other replacement: EP 356, etc) does not have this extra piece. Why? Are automotive fuel pump electrical connectors somehow shielded?

Unfortunately, I did not leave the store with a warm fuzzy. I cannot say with any certainty that this is a direct replacement for the MC pump. I am just about convinced that any pump as long as it meets the specifications required for the motor and fits, is a valid replacement. From my reading and interpretations of the USCG regulations, there are no regulations or restrictions on in-tank fuel delivery systems. Read http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/boatbuilder/fuel/fuel.htm.

I wish that I had a definitive answer as to a replacement. I apologize for not doing what I had hoped to do.

Now, other things I have thought about.

The fuel line from the pump to the regulator has been discussed quite a bit now. I think that bigmac has said time and time again DO NOT USE FUEL INJECTION HOSE. The in tank fuel hoses are completely different from the external hoses. But, the correct hose does not come in the correct size. I measured my regulator fitting and the pump fitting. The regulator fitting is 1/4". The pump fitting is 5/16". The hose is 1/4" ID. I think they merely stretched (forced) the 1/4" hose onto the 5/16" pump fitting. I did not pay enough attention to the clear hose that is on my new module. I would almost be willing to bet that the regulator fitting was changed to 5/16". If so, then the Gates submersible fuel hose would be correct. I have also noticed the clear corrugated hose on several different automotive fuel pump modules. I am trying to "gather" information about who makes it. I would not recommend reusing the original hose. As you noticed in my pictures, it is quite stiff and had a noticeable "pinch" in it. The clear hose on my new module was stiff but much more flexible. (I wish I had of measured the fittings)

Just some other thoughts.

I wondered about the small disk at the bottom of the module. It is to keep fuel from flowing back into the tank when the pump is off. When the pump is on, the disk rises to allow fuel to pass into the pump. Fuel fills the module via the regulator (excess of 58 psi). When the pump stops, the disk falls and keeps the module full of fuel.

I honestly think there are two problems with the MC design. 1) The Carter pump is defective. Carter has bulletins on their web site pertaining to the design flaw. MC, in an email to me, admitted they had problems with Carter pumps. 2) The in tank system cannot keep the pump module supplied with gas 100% of the time. Car fuel tanks are shaped differently and have baffles. The pump sits in the relative bottom of the tank and the baffles aid in decreasing slosh at low fuel levels.

Take a look at this PCM fuel delivery system. Go to page 40. http://www.pcmengines.com/pdfs/manuals/owners/L510010-08.pdf They also have a small video of the system on their web page (http://www.pcmengines.com/).

I honestly think that MC screwed up. I think that MC should admit the problem, engineer a fix, and implement the fix at no cost to the owner.

wheeler
08-18-2009, 03:09 PM
I went to Crow Burlingame and they crossed referenced the AC Delco EP356 with a Carter P74122.

Not sure if there is any difference. Although the Carter is $85.00 and the AC Delco is $130 or so....

I am installing the AC Delco

wheeler
08-19-2009, 11:02 AM
I am now having the fuel line problem. Tried to re-use the existing fuel line and it is a bugger. it is now kinked and not worth using. I am trying to locate a line.

has anyone found a solution to the fuel line. Tygon makes weede eater, chainsaw type of lines athat are submersed in fuel at all times, but not sure about the pressure rating of it.

www.tygon.com I think it is made by primeline.

F-4040-A

any thoughts?

tcmercil
08-19-2009, 12:27 PM
This has been the only thing that I have found that "may" work... and also the only place that I was able to find a purchase on-line

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=7510&product%5Fid=7945

still curious about the long term durability though

JimN
08-19-2009, 12:52 PM
I am now having the fule line problem. Tried to re-use the existing fuel line and it is a bugger. it is now kinked and not worth using. I am trying to locate a line.

has anyone found a solution to the fuel line. Tygon makes weede eater, chainsaw type of lines athat are submersed in fuel at all times, but not sure about the pressure rating of it.

www.tygon.com I think it is made by primeline.

F-4040-A

any thoughts?

I would contact MC and find out what the actual line is, other than knowing that it's Teflon with a braided stainless sleeve and fire resistant fiberglass/rubber jacket. It needs to be Coast Guard approved, too.

bigmac
08-19-2009, 01:25 PM
This has been the only thing that I have found that "may" work... and also the only place that I was able to find a purchase on-line

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=USPlastic&category%5Fname=7510&product%5Fid=7945

still curious about the long term durability though
What we need to find is hose that will sustain at least the 60 psi that the pump reportedly puts out, and is flouropolymer-coated on both the inside and outside such as the Gates stuff that NAPA sells, but at 5/16 is too small to fit reliably on the 1/4 inch regulator barb. Or, we're looking for such tubing that is is entirely made of that flouropolymer such as the stock tubing that comes on these pump modules, including that corrugated stuff. For reference, the usual example of a flouropolymer is PTFE, commonly known as Teflon or Gore-Tex. So, when I search for PTFE fuel tubing, I get a couple of potentially useful hits - places that sell in retail quanitities rather than as OEM large-quantity mfgrs.

Most promising is from Hosecraft - but the only PTFE hose they sell in 1/4 inch I.D. sizes is stainless steel-braided. Look here

http://www.hosecraftusa.com/model.php?id=233

Those are higher pressure hoses than we need, and I'm not sure how or if they would slip over a 5/16 barb such as is on the fuel pump. But if they did, should work just fine.

Ideally, what we would want is what's called a "convoluted" PTFE fuel line (that's the corrugated stuff) in 1/4 inch ID without the braid. PTFE tubing of .030 or thicker would appear to have plenty of resistance to bursting at the pressures we need, and they would still be flexible enough to make the bend.

bigmac
08-19-2009, 01:40 PM
I would contact MC and find out what the actual line is, other than knowing that it's Teflon with a braided stainless sleeve and fire resistant fiberglass/rubber jacket. It needs to be Coast Guard approved, too.

I doubt MasterCraft even has a clue. I'm pretty sure they just OEM spec'd the fuel pump module, apparently from Carter, as a complete unit and MC's role is to just plop them into the tanks. The trick is to find the OEM sources of the submersible fuel line that Carter uses, but my guess is that we won't find that source. Another option would be to get the tubing from Carter, but that just circles us around to the original problem of getting Carter (Federal-Mogul) to supply us end-users with an individual component of their device. Seems to me that Boofer tried that with the pump and they wouldn't tell.

As to USCG approval....I'd be satisfied to know that it's safe. I don't envision seeing the USCG on our lake anytime soon checking in-tank fuel lines, and the DNR...well, they might recognize a fire extinguisher most of the time, but they aren't going to be looking in my fuel tank. I suppose there'd be some liability if my boat exploded and hurt someone, but that going to be just as true of the AD Delco or Airtex fuel pump replacement as it is the tubing it uses. I'm sure the Airtex pumps aren't USCG approved, but I also suspect those OEM Carter pumps aren't either. My guess...they approved the whole module as a design, not its individual components.

JimN
08-19-2009, 03:39 PM
I doubt MasterCraft even has a clue. I'm pretty sure they just OEM spec'd the fuel pump module, apparently from Carter, as a complete unit and MC's role is to just plop them into the tanks. The trick is to find the OEM sources of the submersible fuel line that Carter uses, but my guess is that we won't find that source. Another option would be to get the tubing from Carter, but that just circles us around to the original problem of getting Carter (Federal-Mogul) to supply us end-users with an individual component of their device. Seems to me that Boofer tried that with the pump and they wouldn't tell.

As to USCG approval....I'd be satisfied to know that it's safe. I don't envision seeing the USCG on our lake anytime soon checking in-tank fuel lines, and the DNR...well, they might recognize a fire extinguisher most of the time, but they aren't going to be looking in my fuel tank. I suppose there'd be some liability if my boat exploded and hurt someone, but that going to be just as true of the AD Delco or Airtex fuel pump replacement as it is the tubing it uses. I'm sure the Airtex pumps aren't USCG approved, but I also suspect those OEM Carter pumps aren't either. My guess...they approved the whole module as a design, not its individual components.

Alan spec'd the fuel lines- they weren't an off the shelf item. The CG didn't want to allow in-tank pumps at all until Alan told them that he had been testing it for three years prior to his going to Washington DC to deal with them. They move about as fast as government normally does and they don't like change.

If the convoluted line isn't smooth on the inside, I would expect the turbulence to cause problems.

As far as the liability- if a boat owner replaces the fuel line, they're on the hook but if it's OEM, the manufacturer is, obviously, or not. Personally, I would try to go with the OEM part for the fuel line.

wheeler
08-19-2009, 04:36 PM
I was actually talking about the flexible hose that is within the fuel pump module that M/C wants $500+/- for.

I would like to say that my local freindly MC dealership was kind enough to give me (2) used modules, both had the flexible hoses, so I was able to salvage one and install my new AC Delco EP 356 pump to it and it works like a charm. I strongly feel that this flexible corrugated line will be re-useable. So, I can replace a $90 fuel pump for the next (5) years if necessary and still be in the black.

Thanks to James at MC boats of Ark.!!

bigmac
08-19-2009, 07:51 PM
If the convoluted line isn't smooth on the inside, I would expect the turbulence to cause problems.

The line in the current fuel pump modules is convoluted. I would imagine the regulator solves any turbulence issues.



As far as the liability- if a boat owner replaces the fuel line, they're on the hook but if it's OEM, the manufacturer is, obviously, or not. Personally, I would try to go with the OEM part for the fuel line.

I suspect the liability problem is going to be more applicable to pump replacement than fuel line replacement, but I likewise suspect it's a low-risk deal from a liability standpoint. A failure of the line in the tank is just going to make the boat stop, not explode.

Anyway, those same liability issues are the reason I think it would be highly unlikely, EXTREMELY unlikely, that MasterCraft would sell us that tubing even if they had any. I suppose someone could give Federal-Mogul a call, but Boofer did, and they wouldn't even tell him the model number of the pump, let alone sell him one. So, I think component-level repair is going to be limited to what we can cobble together from the aftermarket.

JimN
08-19-2009, 08:05 PM
The line in the current fuel pump modules is convoluted. I would imagine the regulator solves any turbulence issues.





I suspect the liability problem is going to be more applicable to pump replacement than fuel line replacement, but I likewise suspect it's a low-risk deal from a liability standpoint. A failure of the line in the tank is just going to make the boat stop, not explode.

Anyway, those same liability issues are the reason I think it would be highly unlikely, EXTREMELY unlikely, that MasterCraft would sell us that tubing even if they had any. I suppose someone could give Federal-Mogul a call, but Boofer did, and they wouldn't even tell him the model number of the pump, let alone sell him one. So, I think component-level repair is going to be limited to what we can cobble together from the aftermarket.

I thought the kinked fuel line and convoluted tube was after the pump, not inside the tank, so that covers any pressure issues.

bigmac
08-19-2009, 08:12 PM
I thought the kinked fuel line and convoluted tube was after the pump, not inside the tank, so that covers any pressure issues.


In the tank in the fuel pump module, between the actual pump and the regulator.

JimN
08-19-2009, 08:18 PM
I know the piece you're referring to but when I read that the metal clip was damaged and wouldn't let go, I thought it was the one on the line from the pump to the motor- I didn't see it as the internal line. I read about the 5/16" and 1/2" retainer separators but the clip in the photo isn't reusable, so I didn't even think it was this piece.

JimN
08-19-2009, 08:24 PM
I think the best thing to do when looking for this kind of tubing is print the photo and use the photo online when asking if it's available. It looks very much like what is used in chemical transfer.

bigmac
08-19-2009, 08:45 PM
It looks very much like what is used in chemical transfer.

It is. PTFE with high burst pressure. Completely impervious to permeation. PTFE or some other similar flouropolymer is what is used to coat the 30R10 submersible fuel line that we can only get in 5/16 or larger. This stuff is better in that it is entirely extruded PTFE, not just coated, and it's actually quite a bit less expensive than the 30R10. The convoluted stuff is nice in that it won't kink.

The problem I see is that these are obviously built-to-length pieces in that they have non-convoluted ends on them for slipping them over a barb. So, even though there are sources of bulk convoluted PTFE tubing, that won't help us in getting them attached to the barbs. Looks like that piece of tubing has to be bought as a unit, which means finding a retail source for one-offs. Finding that source...well, that's the problem. Most custom applications use the standard 30R10 fuel line from Gates or Delco. My guess is that the fuel pump module OEM mfgr (Carter, Airtex, etc) order these pieces custom made in bulk. It seems odd that they would sell the fuel pumps themselves in the aftermarket, but not these hoses. Of course, even if they did, it looks like 1/4 inch ends on them is unlikely since virtually all fuel vehicle fuel fittings appear to be 5/16 unlike the MC fuel pressure regulator, which is 1/4.

Sigh....

André
08-19-2009, 09:05 PM
It is. PTFE with high burst pressure. Completely impervious to permeation. PTFE or some other similar flouropolymer is what is used to coat the 30R10 submersible fuel line that we can only get in 5/16 or larger. This stuff is better in that it is entirely extruded PTFE, not just coated, and it's actually quite a bit less expensive than the 30R10. The convoluted stuff is nice in that it won't kink.

The problem I see is that these are obviously built-to-length pieces in that they have non-convoluted ends on them for slipping them over a barb. So, even though there are sources of bulk convoluted PTFE tubing, that won't help us in getting them attached to the barbs. Looks like that piece of tubing has to be bought as a unit, which means finding a retail source for one-offs. Finding that source...well, that's the problem. Most custom applications use the standard 30R10 fuel line from Gates or Delco. My guess is that the fuel pump module OEM mfgr (Carter, Airtex, etc) order these pieces custom made in bulk. It seems odd that they would sell the fuel pumps themselves in the aftermarket, but not these hoses. Of course, even if they did, it looks like 1/4 inch ends on them is unlikely since virtually all fuel vehicle fuel fittings appear to be 5/16 unlike the MC fuel pressure regulator, which is 1/4.

Sigh....

Friend's 06 has been running with a transmission oil hose for the last 20 hrs,3 weeks...
Should explose soon!!!;)

sk8salomon
08-19-2009, 09:28 PM
wow, i had no idea there was such a problem. mine has the dual pump setup and it looks like the same sleeve size as the pictures. i wonder if that would be a smart upgrade?

bigmac
08-20-2009, 12:55 AM
wow, i had no idea there was such a problem. mine has the dual pump setup and it looks like the same sleeve size as the pictures. i wonder if that would be a smart upgrade?

Not sure it's possible, anyway it's at least $441 for a new MasterCraft module, probably more for the dual pump setup.

And...weren't you the one with the hoses that kept blowing out in your tank?

sk8salomon
08-20-2009, 05:32 AM
Not sure it's possible, anyway it's at least $441 for a new MasterCraft module, probably more for the dual pump setup.

And...weren't you the one with the hoses that kept blowing out in your tank?

good memory!

bigmac
08-20-2009, 07:11 AM
good memory!

What was the ultimate resolution of that problem? How did you get it solved? Was it just faulty hoses X 2 or something about the twin Moeller pumps?

Do you know if that twin-pump setup made its way into the rest of the MC lineup in 2008? Or was is just limited to the 2007 TT like your boat?

dooger
08-20-2009, 07:25 AM
I am in the auto parts/scrap metal bidness. There is/are companies rebuilding certain fuel pump modules for automobile light truck applications. Do a search for rebuilt fuel pump modules. see if any rebuilders names come up. If so perhaps they can supply the intake fuel pump hose. Also I do run across these fuel pumps from time to time; I can try to scavange the fuel lines from the pumps. I am hesitant to put this out there, don't really want my a$$ hanging in the wind just in case the "feces hits the oscillator". But i will keep an eye out and see what i can find

bigmac
08-20-2009, 07:35 AM
Good tip. I'll be interested to see if these rebuilders a) have those hoses available, and b) have that hose with 1/4 inch ID ends.

Looks like the big player in rebuilding these modules is Universal Manufacturing in Algona, Iowa.

bigmac
08-20-2009, 08:23 AM
Friend's 06 has been running with a transmission oil hose for the last 20 hrs,3 weeks...
Should explose soon!!!;)


I agree - failure is likely to be imminent. On the Japanese performance car discussion forums, they report failures of such highly permeable hose anywhere from 2 weeks to one year.

On the positive side, when it does fail, all he'll have to do is remove the disintegrated hose pieces and put a new one on. Hose change can be another addition to his maintenance list, like changing the impeller.

wheeler
08-20-2009, 09:46 AM
All of this is a shame really. If anyone can actually come up with the hoses we are in business. I have (2), but I am keeping those puppies for future pump replacements.

I will see if I can get my local M/C to salvage as many of the hose as possible and I may can hand some out.

tick tock.....

sk8salomon
08-20-2009, 08:47 PM
What was the ultimate resolution of that problem? How did you get it solved? Was it just faulty hoses X 2 or something about the twin Moeller pumps?

Do you know if that twin-pump setup made its way into the rest of the MC lineup in 2008? Or was is just limited to the 2007 TT like your boat?

actually, it had nothing to do with the pumps. the ecu had some kind of malfunction where it was increasing fuel pressure for some unknown reason and blowing the hoses. the dealer had to hook up diagnostics computer to it to figure it out. since my boat didn't come from the factory with ZO, the ecu had to be swapped out for an '08 one. long story short, new fuel pumps, reset any ecu problems, cross fingers and thank my warranty.

boofer
08-24-2009, 02:00 AM
Wheeler, are the ends of your (used) hoses different sizes? Are they 5/16" on one end and 1/4" on the other? If they are both 5/16", then I would say that FM has gone to a 5/16" fitting on the regulators.

I did some looking around for these corrugated in tank fuel lines. I ran across a company who sold these modules for cars and in the picture they were using this same corrugated in tank fuel line. I contacted them about the specifications and if I could purchase them. They said that they buy these lines for use in the modules and could not sell them separately. They would not tell me who manufactured them either.

I doubt that the USCG certifies any specific part of the fuel system. From the USCG regulations regarding fuel systems, I can only gather that they require engine driven pumps be within 12" of the engine and have a redundancy in case of failure and safeguards to prevent fuel leakage in the event of a failure. There is nothing specific regarding in-tank fuel delivery systems.

I am in agreement that any modification that you make to your boat is done at your own risk. But, I am just about convinced that this module is nothing more than an automotive module with the regulator installed on it per MC's request. My cars do not use these modules. But, while looking through the catalogs at the Federated store, I see that this configuration is very common. I would assume that if you own a car with one of these modules that you would have to buy the module and not the pump.

Since FM builds these modules they adapted the module to have the regulator attached on the top. The fuel line is just one part of the whole module and simply a component they purchase from someone else. The old black fuel line I am willing to bet was 1/4" all the way through and stretched to accommodate the 5/16" barb.

Until MC decides they screwed up and offers a free fix (NCIH), then Wheeler may have the next best thing; call our local MC dealers and get these fuel lines.

wheeler
08-24-2009, 09:55 AM
Boofer,

I was given (3) old modules to pick apart and use the spare parts as needed. (2) of the modules had the hoses that I needed. My old hose was the black, hard, rigid hose that would kink.

To answer your question, the hoses that were given to me were black, corrugated and had one end larger than the other. I have also seen posts of clear hose.....mine are black.

I am assuming one end to be 1/4" and the other to be 5/16". I believe this was attained by either heating one end to get it to flare over the 5/16" barb by either putting that end in boiling water for a while or using a heat gun.

-or-

It was made from a supplyer that way..... :confused:

Personally the hose looked to have the same size ends and was modifeid after the fact to fit over the 5/16" bar...I may be wrong, I have been wrong once or twice before....

wheeler
08-24-2009, 10:01 AM
By the way.....

This weekend was the first weekend out on the lake with the new AC Delco EP356 pump installed. No problems, run like a champ!!!

For those who have future problems, here is what I have found out...

Crow Burlingame is the place to call for reference numbers

AC Delco EP356 cross references with a Carter P74122
It also cross references with an Airtech E2044 or an E2065 (not sure what the difference is between the (2) Airtech's).

Anyhow, if you feel more comfortable installing a Carter theres you number.....My GM mechanic said he would not touch a Carter with a 10 ft. pole....

pflcjl
08-30-2009, 08:21 AM
I replaced mine this week with the Delco EP356. I would like to replace the hose with a corrugated style hose, does anyone know where I can find one?? Thanks...

bigmac
08-30-2009, 08:47 AM
Still no apparent retail source for any kind of fuel line that will work in this application, other than the concept that Wheeler mentioned about salvaging the stuff from dead fuel pump modules (apparently there are a lot of those out there). Unless you can get your hands on a salvage pump, you're pretty much stuck with re-using the fuel line that you have. Note that only the later model fuel pump modules (sometime after 2005) use the convoluted non-kinking line.

I did speak with someone at Midwest Manufacturing, an (automotive) fuel pump module re-builder. They tell me their distributor for convoluted in-tank fuel line is Power Signal Group. Tele. 800-722-5273. From looking at PSG website, my guess is that they get the fuel line from Delphi.

boofer
08-30-2009, 11:36 PM
Good info wheeler. I noticed pictures in the other fuel pump thread where it definitely appears that they use a 1/4" hose and "spread" it to fit a 5/16" fitting.

f16driver
09-06-2009, 10:41 AM
Boofer,
Great job. Recently I had to do several pump swaps on my 03 PS 197 while trying to diagnos a stalling problem. I always thought that the fuel pressure regulator was the round module on top of the pump assembly but now I'm confused because I recently purchased a aftermarket fuel pressure regulator for my LQ-9 that sits on the fuel rail on top of my motor. So all of a sudden I'm not convinced that the round module is a pressure regulator, either that or my boat has 2 separate regulators.

F16driver
03 PS 197 w LQ-9
Fredericksburg Va

wheeler
09-07-2009, 03:21 PM
The round module at the top is the fuel pressure regulator (1/4" barb). There is a hose that runs from it to a fule pump (5/16" barb) that sits at the bottom of your fule pump apperatus.

mbeach
10-28-2009, 11:57 AM
what happened to boofer's pics for this thread??

johny123
10-31-2009, 09:21 AM
that's exactly what i was wondering.... great info but the pics would be a big help

can anyone/a mod re add them?

bigmac
10-31-2009, 10:20 AM
that's exactly what i was wondering.... great info but the pics would be a big help

can anyone/a mod re add them?

The disappearance isn't related to Team Talk. Those were linked images, and they no longer exist on the hosting site (carpron.com), therefore they can't be re-added by anyone except Boofer. Only solution would be to PM him about it ... maybe he could re-post them on another hosting site and re-establish them in this thread with new links. It would be kind of a big job.

kingwoodlee
11-03-2009, 10:44 AM
FYI, I had to have the fuel pump changed on my 05 suburban and when I went to pick it up, I asked to look at the bad unit. Well, it had the same black corrugated type fuel line that everyone has been looking for on this thread. I am not sure if it is the same diameter as the one on my Mastercraft fuel pump, but I pulled it off, and plan on keeping it just in case I might need it. BTW-already replaced my fuel pump with a ford mustang pump and all is well.

rds4830
11-14-2009, 06:05 PM
I was told by a dealer that fuel only goes through the filter when the fuel is below 1/4 of a tank. above that it bypasses the filter.

TOO-TALL
04-11-2010, 11:31 PM
What special tool do you need to remove the fuel line from the pump to the motor?

PeterN
04-12-2010, 01:58 AM
This 'special tool' is required to release the fuel line; however, it is relatively cheap and can be obtained at your local parts store. It is used like a quick-disconnect to undo the fuel line.
I am German and I don't know the correct name of that tool in english.

To give you an idea, I attached a pic with a set of those removing clips. Good luck.

TOO-TALL
04-12-2010, 08:08 PM
After reading this thread again.
You guys are saying all I need to do is remove the canister in the tank take it apart and replace the pump module with one I can buy at the local auto parts store for around 80 dollars.
MC wants almost 500 for the comlpete canister.
The pump module replacement sounds to good to be true.

Who on hear has replaced just there module? And how long have you been running the new module.
Does the module just plug in?

My biggest concern is going threw all this work to replace the module then 3-4 weeks down the road have problems.

TOO-TALL
04-12-2010, 08:39 PM
Also in the very first pic you have one fuel line(orange) I have two going to the top of my pump.

CruisinGA
04-12-2010, 08:58 PM
Also in the very first pic you have one fuel line(orange) I have two going to the top of my pump.

Older models such as ours have a fuel return line, the newer ones don't. Seemingly doesn't affect which pump is used.

Did you get my PM?

TOO-TALL
04-12-2010, 10:23 PM
Thanks for the reply.


PM sent

TOO-TALL
04-12-2010, 11:35 PM
Took out the complete unit tonight.
Found the special tool at autozone.

Thanks for the great write up

TOO-TALL
04-13-2010, 01:21 PM
Also when I remove the unit there was alot of gas still in the tank maybe 1/3 of a tank

CruisinGA
04-13-2010, 01:45 PM
Too-Tall's thread got me planning for what seems like an eventuality when my fuel pump goes out.

Got a pump ordered, and was thinking about the in-tank hose from the pump to the top of the in tank assembly, don't want to reinstall a likely already kinked hose.

I remembered a friend recently modified the fuel cell for his rock crawler and asked him where he got his in-take hose from. He steered me here-

http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/html/kits.html

If you look at that page you'll notice they have three options-

A "flexy" hose that looks like the hose on the newer models.
http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/pics/flexhose.jpg

A "Chrylser Spec" hose and a J30R10 spec hose. The Chrysler spec is what they use in their tanks, but is not quite up to the SAE J30R10 spec hose which is considerably more expensive.

http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/pics/fuelhose.jpg
I plan on having some of the flexy hose on hand, just need to look back in this thread and see which length would work best.

Hope this helps those needing replacement hose when they install a new pump module.

TOO-TALL
04-13-2010, 02:55 PM
Thanks for posting the flex hose info.
I was loking closer at my pump today and it has the flex hose on it.


CruisinGA:
Which pump did you buy?

TOO-TALL
04-13-2010, 02:58 PM
.

Thanks to Boofer and others, I replaced the pump itself with a Delphi FE 0237 from NAPA ($220), and I'm back in business.



Just the info I was looking for.
I was just going to post and ask who had changed out there pump and how has it worked so far.

Thrall
04-13-2010, 03:16 PM
Just the info I was looking for.
I was just going to post and ask who had changed out there pump and how has it worked so far.

The Napa pump I bought was p/n 74122 and only about 1/2 the price. (Versus the Delphi FE0237 Neil M got from Napa) Looks the same as the pics I've seen on here although I can't confirm it will work in the 06 as I don't need to pull it apart, just got a spare for good luck in case it craps out on the lake.

TOO-TALL
04-15-2010, 07:11 PM
Last night I installed the new fuel pump.
I went with the Delphi FE 0237 bought it at auto zone for 95.00.
I wanted to have the boat by this weekend.
It was real easy to change out took about an hour.
Reinstalled the complete unit pulled the boat out and hooked up the fake a lake...had my fingers crossed turned the key and didn't hear the pump kick on.... oh no I thought(I guess I was used to my old pump you could really hear the old one)this new pump is so quiet.I had to feel the top of the unit to make sure it was on..it was.
Turned the key to start and the boat fired right up.From idle to 3500 rpm she runs good.
I will have to do a water test but, so far it looks good


I have to thank Boofer for the great write up.Without this thread I don't think I could have done it.

CruisinGA
04-16-2010, 10:51 AM
Good stuff.

I assume you re-used your in-tank hose? It was the flex style, right?

TOO-TALL
04-16-2010, 05:06 PM
YES...and Yes..

Also this is the 3rd fuel pump in this boat.Boat only has 800 hrs...***!!!!
Two buy previous owner and one now.

André
04-16-2010, 05:26 PM
YES...and Yes..

Also this is the 3rd fuel pump in this boat.Boat only has 800 hrs...***!!!!
Two buy previous owner and one now.

Just curious.Were the previous replacement from the MC dealer or also from autozone and likes??

93Prostar190
04-16-2010, 05:40 PM
Hey fuel pump guys ..... not trying to threadjack ... just a small detour .... any one out there with the X14/214 platform have a failure yet?

I have a 2008 214 with the MCX and with our weird fuel tank shape, I almost feel like it is an attempt to make the fuel pump less prone to get fuel starved. Just wanted to gather some thoughts.


I do realize the X14/214 platform has not been around a long time so that is a factor. It is also probably a factor that all of the fuel guage senders on this platform tend to make you think you have less gas than you do .... so that must be a protective feature for the fuel pump as well .... I have worked with my dealer and I have tested 3 senders for them and all of them read close to "E" when a visual inspection reveals just under a half tank .... a fill up and counting the gallons going in confirms that.

Just wondering ....

TOO-TALL
04-16-2010, 08:48 PM
Just curious.Were the previous replacement from the MC dealer or also from autozone and likes??


Pump 1 and 2 were from MC.
This one that I just installed(#3) is from Auto zone.We'll see how long it lasts.

CruisinGA
04-23-2010, 11:05 AM
Rockauto.com is having a closeout sale on the Carter P74122 replacement pumps.

Just got a spare for $39, $47 shipped. Looks like it comes with some in-tank hose and hose clamps etc.

They have 6 left at this price.

venetrex
05-17-2010, 07:21 AM
Had my pump crap out on my 2007 x2 MCX. Maybe why I was getting a check engine the day before. Anyways I replaced the pump, filter, but mine also had a sock, I used an autozone sock. a little different, but it fit in there. Do the older models have this sock too??? I had a black flex hose in the module and the pump is quieter than the original, also came with the small hose clamp needed. Took me about 45 min to get out and 30 min to put back in. Runs like a champ now.
This thread was great thanks.

hcoog17
05-23-2010, 10:43 AM
I just replaced my fuel pump on 2006 X-30 (MCX) thanks to this thread. I went with the Advance Auto parts E2044. It was $81. I followed the photos and step by step instructions. You guys are a great help.

I decided to reuse the existing hose. It was fairly rigid but was not kinked anywhere. I thought this would a better alternative than using an R9 type hose. I checked at napa, and they called Gates. Gates said they did not make the R10 in 1/4.

I have searched this site for EVERYTHING, since this is my first MC. Just wanted to say Thanks!

Brad

GreenX2
06-01-2010, 10:52 AM
Took my 2004 X-2 350 MCX about 4 hours away from home for a Memorial Day trip when my fuel pump decided to crap out on me the first day of a three day weekend. This couldn't have happen at a worse time.

I pulled the assembly apart and took the fuel pump to Advanced Auto. Hoping they could cross reference the Carter number? They couldn't cross the numbers so I got the phone out and got on team talk and found the Airtex part number and told him the number I needed. Thanks to this board and an Iphone I was back on the water in no time. Total labor time was about an hour w/o travel time.

Airtex part #E2044 $81.99 + tax

butter cutter
06-02-2010, 11:14 PM
I have read all this post and and a few others. I had my fuel pump act up this past Monday.:mad: I've got a 2005 TT 197. After reading the post I wrote down all the fuel pump part numbers and off to the parts store I went. :) While at the parts store looking at the fuel pumps the PSI output on all the pumps referenced in this post their output was anywhere from 80 to 95 PSI. From talking to a couple different Mastercraft mechanics they stated that this was to much pressure. I would to hear from other Mastercraft owners that have installed these pumps on their boats to see if installing a higher PSI pump has caused any other motor problems (blown o rings, put to much fuel into the cylinder and scorched the piston, etc.)?:confused: Thanks for the help!

93Prostar190
06-03-2010, 07:28 AM
I have read all this post and and a few others. I had my fuel pump act up this past Monday.:mad: I've got a 2005 TT 197. After reading the post I wrote down all the fuel pump part numbers and off to the parts store I went. :) While at the parts store looking at the fuel pumps the PSI output on all the pumps referenced in this post their output was anywhere from 80 to 95 PSI. From talking to a couple different Mastercraft mechanics they stated that this was to much pressure. I would to hear from other Mastercraft owners that have installed these pumps on their boats to see if installing a higher PSI pump has caused any other motor problems (blown o rings, put to much fuel into the cylinder and scorched the piston, etc.)?:confused: Thanks for the help!

curious what other people reply, but the role of the pressure regulator is to help conform the the pressure to something that works for the injectors/fuel rail etc.

Most fuel injection fuel pumps that are in tank (even going back to Bosch CIS) systems would create "too much" pressure which was controlled via a fuel pressure regulator.

80-95 sounds like it is within spec, but someone more knowledgeable than me may answer.

roybrown
06-04-2010, 04:12 PM
Did anyone ever figure out what pump could be used to replace the bad one without buying the entire unit? My X45 went dead in the water last weekend after about 10 minutes on the water. Made for a real crappy memorial day weekend. I ordered a new pump but would like to see if I can fix the one I have so there is a spare later on down the road.

Any suggestions would be great.

skipete
06-07-2010, 02:52 PM
great thread. I have had a few recurring issues with my fuel system. LQ9 engine. First a problem was the fuel pump would not go on, turned out the relay was bad, next the relays kept burning out, turned out the relay harness was bad, now i finally burned out the pump, of course on the holiday weekend, on a sunday of course. Well, a buddy of mine had a fuel pump from his 02 nautique, same as the one in the unit now. Replaced the pump only, took about 20 minutes, reused the plastic hose, i used some small plastic hose clamps. Boat ran fine for @ week or so, then the relay harness failed again. Got a paper clip to bend the tab in the harness, so that it would make good contact, and im running again.
My next task is to get a spare pump and hose, and then replace the harness plug that continually fails. Love the boat '04 197, hate the little problems that reoccur.

CruisinGA
06-07-2010, 03:10 PM
Did anyone ever figure out what pump could be used to replace the bad one without buying the entire unit? My X45 went dead in the water last weekend after about 10 minutes on the water. Made for a real crappy memorial day weekend. I ordered a new pump but would like to see if I can fix the one I have so there is a spare later on down the road.

Any suggestions would be great.

??? Look in this thread. Several part numbers from different manufacturers.



Here a previous post, in this thread, with a part number and supplier. On sale too!

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showpost.php?p=674504&postcount=107

Chief
06-08-2010, 07:02 PM
??? Look in this thread. Several part numbers from different manufacturers.



Here a previous post, in this thread, with a part number and supplier. On sale too!

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showpost.php?p=674504&postcount=107


Think it would work in a 06 X2?

CruisinGA
06-08-2010, 07:17 PM
From what I've read, it doesn't sound like MC has changed the in-tank module aside from the fuel line since it was introduced, so I would think it fits.

Hopefully someone knows for sure.

Chief
06-08-2010, 07:20 PM
From what I've read, it doesn't sound like MC has changed the in-tank module aside from the fuel line since it was introduced, so I would think it fits.

Hopefully someone knows for sure.

I guess for the price it's not too much of a loss if it doesn't.

marvinhogan
06-20-2010, 10:39 PM
Thanks for posting this information. I replace my fuel pump after reading this. It was easy. BTW, the Napa number is below. Aslo the fuel line disconnect tool can be purchased at Napa.

Fuel pump replacement number Napa P74118 (60 PSI) $120.

Mastercraft 2006 X30

bran7869
06-28-2010, 10:55 AM
I replaced my pump with the airtech pump. When I took it out, it took a few seconds for it to crank while turning it over but I thought that would be normal for the system to prime up. Once it started it ran perfectly but now when I turn the boat off the fuel system is not holding its pressure. So every time I turn the boat off then try to crank it back up it takes sometimes 4-5 min to get it to start. I never had this problem before hand. I'm assuming I have a bad check valve somewhere allowing the system to loose pressure when the key is turned off. Does anyone know if the pump itself has a check-valve in it or is it in the regulator on the module? Again, I never had this problem before I lost the fuel pump so I'm assuming maybe I got a faulty fuel pump.

2006 X-Star

bran7869
07-02-2010, 02:03 PM
I removed the fuel module from the tank. I tried to blow through the barb on the regulator with the it still assembled and could blow air through it. That told me I had a leak between the regulator and the fuel pump itself. When I disassembled the module, I inspected the hose between the regulator and the fuel pump for any tear or slice, etc. I removed the fuel pump and closely compared it with the original carter pump. On the air tech the barb is different. It has a 5/16 nipple at the end of the barb but below that it has a shoulder about a 1/4 in long and a 1/4 in outside diameter. (The Carter pump was 5/16 all the way down the barb.) When I installed the pump this is where I clamped the hose down. To fix the problem I added another clamp to the hose to have two clamping points. One directly over the 5/16 OD and one over the 1/4 OD shoulder. This alleviated the problem. So if you go with the Airtech E2044 from Autozone for $90.00 be cautious when installing the hose onto the barb. I have an MCX in a 2006 X-Star. According to my fuel pressure guage at Idle I'm running 69 psi, now when I turn the key off the pressure drops to about 60 psi instead of 0. This thread saved me about $400 or more in just parts.

wetfoot100
07-02-2010, 02:18 PM
Thank you very much for this thread. I have an 07 X1 that just had a fuel pump go out this week. Right now I am still under warranty so I let the dealer fix it, but this information is very useful for when I do get off warranty.

rocket71
07-05-2010, 04:03 PM
Thanks to everyone who has gone before me on this fuel pump issue. I just bought an X-2 from a dealer and BAM, 4 hours into my new ride the fuel pump went out. I replaced the pump with the suggestions from this post and am back on the water within 1 day.

Props to the dealer, Bay Area Watersports for offering to overnight me one at cost. I couldn't wait and got it fixed on my own.

cbryan70
07-05-2010, 05:15 PM
you installed the whole fuel pump from MC or bought a fuel pump at the store? Or baws just sent you the $100 dollar part?

rocket71
07-09-2010, 09:28 AM
I got a fuel pump from the parts store.

BigBarney
07-09-2010, 05:03 PM
My contribution:

http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/html/kits.html

Scroll down and you will see the 8" flex hose for $3

BigBarney
07-09-2010, 05:16 PM
Just got off the phone with Indmar. 2003 LQ9 pressure at the rail is 50psi.

Sodar
07-09-2010, 05:20 PM
Is the 8" what is needed?

BigBarney
07-09-2010, 05:44 PM
It is for my module of an '03 x30

Sodar
07-09-2010, 05:46 PM
I think all the modules are the same. They are "expandable" for different size tanks.

BigBarney
07-09-2010, 05:51 PM
I was able to get my "slinky" fuel line off relatively intact. Measured it right at 8". I work for an ACDelco distributor. Got all kinds of EP fuel pumps on my desk right now. Alot of them are very close to the ep356. Logged a call with my GM contact to get psi specs for them. Went down to our defect bank and searched through some fuel tank modules. Pleanty of slinky lines. But don't think I can get one off without damage.

This is the 4th year in a row I will be replacing my pump. Bought 2 modules in the past. but after reading all this info, I will be rebuilding mine. Either Delco or Waldro.

TOO-TALL
07-09-2010, 11:22 PM
Since replacing the pump has anyone had a problem of useing too much fuel??
I put in a new pump in about two months ago.Bought it at autozone and it seems like my boat is useing alot more gas now.
I would think the regulator would control how much fuel is being used..

Sodar
07-10-2010, 09:59 AM
Wouldn't that be impossible, as if it was using more fuel, the ECU would throw a code about the boat running too rich? Has performance changed?

JimN
07-10-2010, 10:34 AM
Wouldn't that be impossible, as if it was using more fuel, the ECU would throw a code about the boat running too rich? Has performance changed?

I'm not sure rich exhaust throws a code but if it has an 02 sensor, it would use that to monitor the exhaust and adjust the injector pulse width. Higher pressure could increase consumption if the pulse width remains the same as pre-pump replacement but it could also be that the old pump's pressure was so low that it seemed normal and now that it's where it should be, it seems like it's dumping fuel.

That's the problem with not doing more than parts replacement as the only form of diagnostics. The first test should be fuel pressure. If that's adequate, the pump stays and if not, the original part (or one with the same pressure and flow rate) goes in.

TOO-TALL
07-10-2010, 12:15 PM
Has performance changed?

No performance is still good.Idles fine,runs strong.

TOO-TALL
07-10-2010, 12:19 PM
I'm not sure rich exhaust throws a code but if it has an 02 sensor, it would use that to monitor the exhaust and adjust the injector pulse width. Higher pressure could increase consumption if the pulse width remains the same as pre-pump replacement but it could also be that the old pump's pressure was so low that it seemed normal and now that it's where it should be, it seems like it's dumping fuel.

That's the problem with not doing more than parts replacement as the only form of diagnostics. The first test should be fuel pressure. If that's adequate, the pump stays and if not, the original part (or one with the same pressure and flow rate) goes in.


Maybe my old pump's pressure was low.....
Could a person smell the boat running "rich" like in the exhaust?

JimN
07-10-2010, 02:30 PM
Maybe my old pump's pressure was low.....
Could a person smell the boat running "rich" like in the exhaust?

Fuel/air ratio of 14.7:1 is what works best for performance and economy, generally. If you had less fuel pressure with the old pump, two things happen. First, the amount of fuel delivered decreases and second, the gas doesn't atomize as well as it should. This leads to incomplete combustion and bad economy. You should have smelled gas in the exhaust. If it's running rich now, you should smell that, too and in both cases, you may have had black deposits on the transom. If it's running the way it should, you may smell a bit of gas when it's running hard and under load but when cruising, it shouldn't smell like much of anything.

"Here's a new fuel pump" isn't very specific. Which pump? What's the average pressure and flow rate? What is the min/max pressure? What is the regulated pressure? These are all factors that need to be considered when designing the system and it's no less important when replacing the original pump. The pump failures are due to the ethanol/water, not because the OEM part is a bad pump. When it was spec'd for the boats in '99, we didn't have all of the crap in the fuel that we do now and it all makes a difference.

BigBarney
07-10-2010, 05:13 PM
I agree all the crap in the fuel does effect things. But there would be a hell of alot more people chiming in with pump failure issues WITH all manufacturers. Not sure if a poll has been taken, but I believe the majority of failures noted on this forum are '01 - '05.

The pump design/operation may play into things, but I think it is more module design / placement. I went through 15 - 20 ACDelco modules (MU numbers) yesterday. NONE of them are designed like my '03. They don't have the outer module tracking along the inner with screws! The filter sock is on the outside. Three spring loaded supports are used instead of screws.

I am anal about running my bought with a gas tank level 1/2 or better. Everytime I fill up my 60 gallon tank, it is usually 25 gallons or close to it. I think as the level in the tank falls, my module is hanging on those screws and starving the pump. Other people probably have ran the tank too low and burnt the pump up. I haven't.

FWIW - my brother-in-law's '03 Malibu has 3 times the hours as mine. Close to 1200. Never a pump failure. And he has ran his boat out of gas 3 times. I know. I towed him to the marina.

JimN
07-10-2010, 05:22 PM
I agree all the crap in the fuel does effect things. But there would be a hell of alot more people chiming in with pump failure issues WITH all manufacturers. Not sure if a poll has been taken, but I believe the majority of failures noted on this forum are '01 - '05.

The pump design/operation may play into things, but I think it is more module design / placement. I went through 15 - 20 ACDelco modules (MU numbers) yesterday. NONE of them are designed like my '03. They don't have the outer module tracking along the inner with screws! The filter sock is on the outside. Three spring loaded supports are used instead of screws.

I am anal about running my bought with a gas tank level 1/2 or better. Everytime I fill up my 60 gallon tank, it is usually 25 gallons or close to it. I think as the level in the tank falls, my module is hanging on those screws and starving the pump. Other people probably have ran the tank too low and burnt the pump up. I haven't.

FWIW - my brother-in-law's '03 Malibu has 3 times the hours as mine. Close to 1200. Never a pump failure. And he has ran his boat out of gas 3 times. I know. I towed him to the marina.

How many manufacturers have their pump in the tank? It's a different part, completely.

Get the part number from the BIL's boat, just for grins. If he has a carb, never mind- that doesn't even apply to this thread because it needs very little fuel pressure. If the boats you're familiar with and are referring to don't have fuel injection, they don't apply, either.

BigBarney
07-10-2010, 06:07 PM
His boat is fuel injected. Don't really know if his pump is internal or not. But your first statement hit the nail on the head. The pump in the tank is the problem.

BigBarney
07-10-2010, 06:28 PM
Hell, I just called him. Then I called his dealer. External 2 stage fuel pump. 1 stage for high volume/low pressure. The other stage for low volume/high pressure. Said benefit over single stage is consistent performance. Imagine that!

Single stage pump are most efficient when pumping near their rated specs. 2 stage pumps doesn't care how much fuel is needed. They have a stage for low throttle and high throttle.

So, who's first in rigging an external pump system???

BigBarney
07-10-2010, 07:59 PM
One more thing. You can goto the acdelco parts website and look at the applications the ep356 fits. No vehicle listed later than 1997. Lebaron, Lancer, Topaz, B2300 truck. My point is this pump probably was not made for high flow fuel injected V8 engines.

Gonna try and find the pump that fits the Cadillac Escalade with the NorthStar (my lq9 engine). Will also look at the corevette. Probably would not hurt to catalog a Chevy/GMC truck with the big V8. Will keep you posted.

JimN
07-10-2010, 09:36 PM
His boat is fuel injected. Don't really know if his pump is internal or not. But your first statement hit the nail on the head. The pump in the tank is the problem.

How would you develop the needed fuel pressure?

The problem is the ethanol and the other crap that goes along with buying gas at a marina that may not filter the gas well. Clean, unadulterated gas works great with these pumps and if ethanol is in the gas, these pumps work fine in cars.

JimN
07-10-2010, 09:39 PM
One more thing. You can goto the acdelco parts website and look at the applications the ep356 fits. No vehicle listed later than 1997. Lebaron, Lancer, Topaz, B2300 truck. My point is this pump probably was not made for high flow fuel injected V8 engines.

Gonna try and find the pump that fits the Cadillac Escalade with the NorthStar (my lq9 engine). Will also look at the corevette. Probably would not hurt to catalog a Chevy/GMC truck with the big V8. Will keep you posted.

The pump-in-tank system was developed with ONLY V8 motors and was used by the developers for three years before they even got Coast Guard approval to test it. There's no reason to use anything else since MC doesn't use anything but these. If this system had failed during development, it would have been changed or scrapped.

BigBarney
07-10-2010, 10:27 PM
Agreed that the module coming in our boats was developed FOR our boats. But if the crap Carter pump in the module is replaced by another pump, people should realize that just because the pump size specs are the same, the pump operation specs may be different.

The Delco ep356 that people are sticking in their boats may not be up to par, since it was designed to fit mostly 4 and 6 cyclinder engines. And non high performance engines at that.

And I don't care how much testing was done on this system design, it says alot that a GM engine is in our boats, but MC more than likely took the low bidder, Carter/Federal Mogul, and stuck their fuel delivery system in the tank.

BigBarney
07-10-2010, 10:41 PM
To spec the correct pump, people can also look in theit owner's manual or pull it up online. I know mine, 2003, has the different engines offered and the operating psi. Also has the fuel flow rate.

Looks like every engine in 2003 had a flow rate of 1 pint per 20 seconds (except the big boy motor). That equates to roughly 90 liters per hour. But the psi specs are different for the fuel pumps.

That is where we need to be careful when replacing the pump.

BigBarney
07-12-2010, 02:38 PM
Update:

Talked with a tech at GM this morning. Also went to one of our best accounts to confirm.

The ep356 has a maximum operating psi of 27-37
Flow rate is 25+ gph

So for the 5.7l v-8's, it should not be a prblem.

Unfortunately, for my LQ9 engine, it will not work. Not enough working psi.

BigBarney
07-12-2010, 05:08 PM
Unother update:

You 5.7 engine guys are lucky!

2 delco fuel pumps will fit your module. As stated in prior posts, the delco ep356 will work (has compatible psi and flow rate specs). In my quest for the proper fuel pump for my lq9, I came across another delco pump. An ep369. Has same specs as the 356. But the exterior design is almost identical to the carter from my boat. Both made by walbro (stamped on pump body).

Pic below (l to r - ep369, my carter pump, ep356)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v282/rvskodak/compare.jpg

Sodar
07-12-2010, 05:13 PM
Cool that you are getting so much detail out of this!

Have you purchased and received your hose yet? I am curious if I should pick one up...

BigBarney
07-12-2010, 05:34 PM
Have not ordered it yet. Still waiting on identifying the proper pump. Afraid that the inlet size may be different.

Interestingly enough, spent a good hour today talking to my GM contact about fuel pumps. Asked him about the hose. He said that the primary reason for the "slinky" hose was not so much to mitigate kinking, but to reduce the pump vibration from being felt. As the newer engines came out demanding higher psi and flow rate requirements, the pumps were made with larger gearing and faster revolution to keep up.

The hose is kind of like a vibration isolator. And once you put them on, it is almost impossible to get off. Destroyed 6 delco MU tank modules this morning. Good thing they were defects!

I have had some success. Carter part# for a pump that fits 2002 Escalade V8 with the 364ci 6 liter is P74832M. But not having any luck crossing to Delco. Also found a Bosch module #67317. I'll keep looking.

BigBarney
07-12-2010, 05:45 PM
Also, first page of this post refers to the poor design of the Carter pump. It is rotary vane and is not a very good design for today's engines (2000'ish and newer).

The ep356 and ep369 are G rotor. Won't bore you with details. But they can withstand more abuse (dirty fuel, starvation) than the rotary vane. Relatively big metal gears that, according to my GM contact, are tested up to 3 minutes withour fuel and last.

Matt 230vrs
07-17-2010, 01:17 PM
I have a 2001 Maristar VRS with the MX LTR 5.7l

My fuel pump is bad and I have followed the post but have ordered the ACDelco EP 356 and the new pump is 1" shorter than the original.

Does anyone know the correct Fuel pump for the Maristar?

tooslownova
07-22-2010, 11:22 AM
I just replaced my fuel pump - 04 Xstar. Read all the threads, ended up buy it at Napa for $112. Thanks for all the info that everyone provided.
If you think you're having issues with your pump, it's very easy to test it by turning on your key, then depressing the valve on your fuel rail on the engine. if there is no gas pressure there, it's the pump. After replacing the pump, I could only get up to 11PSI and it needs to be around 58. Took the pump back out to troubleshoot and got back through it.....and noticed two things:
1. the canister was dry, no gas in it. When I took the first one out, it has about 2 cups of gas in it. So when I put it back in the second time, I poured about 2 cups back in the top before putting it back in. I.E. priming it. However, it's supposed to pull gas from the bottom up so is this really necessary??? Can't answer that but seems logical that a pump needs to be primed before use, but I didn't read that in any of the threads.
2. in looking at the bottom of the fuel pump, there is a small hole on the side. There is also a gasket that goes on the bottom of the pump. make sure the hole is not covered up and i put the pump in so that the hole is aimed towards (what appears to be) a channel that goes to the uptake hole on the fuel filter. Kind of hard to explain so if you have issues, feel free to shoot me an email and maybe I can help.

I've not put a load on the boat yet, just had it run on the lift for 5 minutes and everything seemed to work fine. Only time will tell.

Thanks again for the posts, it's nice to have some help with you local *&%*$3@** dealer won't talk/help on these issues because they want to sell you a $500 unit.

epnault
08-03-2010, 09:35 AM
Hi Guys -
Sorry to hear about your fuel pump problems. I had so many problems with in the tank fuel pumps on my GM truck and suburban I became a certified fuel pump mechanic;). It is the worst kind of problem in my opinion and I am sad to learn my new (used) boat will most likely give me the same headaches I had with my vehicles. Being stranded on a roadway might be better than being stranded on a lake.

OK, so I want to be prepared. I read a bunch of stuff on the site including fuel pump 101. Can someone tell me what aftermarket pump and what length (8" or 12") of the intenal flexible hose is needed for the 2002 Pro Star 209 with 5.7L 310hp? Also, my fuel lines are crimped/banded on with a non-reusable clamp. Does the auto parts store sell a clamp remover, clamps, and tool?

BigBarney
08-04-2010, 05:39 PM
delco ep356 flow rate. received from parent company of Walbro.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v282/rvskodak/5CA209.jpg

Wake2004
08-05-2010, 02:12 PM
So I also had the fuel pump fail this past weekend. The only pump the we could cross reference that was also available in the small town I was in was a Bosch 69118. Everything went well except the flex li e kinked when I reinstalled to the pump into the tank. I ended up using the fuel line that came with the pump. She fired up right away after the fuel line change.

Questions
Bosch makes many claims on and in the box that this pump will outperform the OE pump (hope so). Is this the proper pump?

Since I am not using the flex line do you see any issues with the line that came with the pump? To get it to fit correctly onto the smaller nipple on the module I just cut a 1/2" of the old line and slipped it onto the nipple then installed the new line on top of that, made a nice snug fit.

I never ran the tank under 1/2 tank but I am the second owner for the last 30 hours of a total of 331 hours. The way I see it if the tank is left lower than near full the cup that contains the fuel pump can not refill with fuel so the pump would not have any fuel on it to cool itself. So I do not think even 1/2 tank would be ok. Has anyone thought of drilling holes in the cup just above the cup so that fuel could enter at lower tank levels?

FYI, 2004 PS205V with MCX

whitey69
08-08-2010, 10:39 PM
Just installed NAPA Pump with no problems. Dealer told me they had no luck in doing this and a new module($600 cdn) was the way BS. I didnt need the fuel line just reused the existing one. cut the stainless clamp with a wire cutter. The only parts I replaced were the pump ($110 cdn) and the clamp (50 cents).

brucemac
08-10-2010, 04:07 PM
thanks for all the info in this thread. ordered up the 8in flex hose and a couple stainless clamps from APE just in case i need them.

http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/pics/flexhose.jpg

am still on the fence with regards to which pump, but i suppose am leaning towards the airtex 2044 from amazon.com along with the cheapy fuel line disconnect tool.

anybody want to talk me out of that model for the delco/walbro?

lakedude
08-11-2010, 02:56 AM
First post...

2001 X-9 Owner, stock 310 hp engine.

My story is about the same as many. Ran low or possibly out of gas Sunday, August 8th, 2010. Filled up with gas but no start on Monday. Hoping for quick fix we called the boat dealer and were told that the fuel pump was most likely toast and that a new one was roughly $400 plus labor.

One friend found this forum where we discovered that you don't need the whole assembly, just the little pump inside.

Took the old pump out but O'Rielly's could not cross the part. We phoned a friend and he told us to get a pump for a 1992 Ford Tempo??? Bought a Bestest BE2065 pump, some bulk gasket material and some gas line removal tools (didn't know what size so I bought the a whole set for about $11) all for about $105 total. Installing was very easy and straight forward, except the darn kink prone black hose. It fits on really, really tight. It took us over an hour to get that hose on. We tried lube and tools and heat (heat seems to make it worse, like heat shrink). Eventually we finally got it far enough and called it good.

The Bestest is very similar but not exactly the same as the stock Carver.

Anyhow it is all put back together and working fine but I'm worried that the pressure might not be right. Info on these pumps is annoyingly hard to come by. I read somewhere that multi-port pumps are typically around 60psi and that throttle body pumps are down around 15 to 20psi. The X-9 definitely has throttle body injection, you can see the twin injectors working if you take the air cleaner off. Anybody know what pressure pump I should be running?

Found this on eBay (dang thing is only $20):


Part Number: BE2065

CROSS REFERENCE:

AIRTEX REF # E2065 - E2001

BOSH: F 000 TE1 665
CARTER: P74123, P74124, P74104, P74118
DELPHI: V22 2788 23
FIAT: 46411584
FORD: F0AZ-9H307C(99'P299), F69Z 9H307AA, E99Z9H307A, F17Z9H307B, F21Z9H307L, F29Z9H307A, F39Z9H307A

PRESSURE: 3BAR

FLOW: 95L/H

Thrall
08-11-2010, 12:00 PM
Just installed NAPA Pump with no problems. Dealer told me they had no luck in doing this and a new module($600 cdn) was the way BS. I didnt need the fuel line just reused the existing one. cut the stainless clamp with a wire cutter. The only parts I replaced were the pump ($110 cdn) and the clamp (50 cents).

That's the problem, dealers, repair shops out to fark you.
Took my truck, 07 Dodge Diesel in yesterday, steering box had locked up, no time to fix it myself. Found the box and PS pump online at Napa across the street from the shop. Told the shop those were the parts I wanted, $200 for both, lifetime warranty. Shop calls me and says they can't do it, those parts are only for a gas motor truck, need the pump and box from Dodge dlr, $900! Had to tell them I'd yank my truck from their shop if they didn't go across the street to Napa, get the parts and stab them in my truck!

jwmiller
08-11-2010, 12:06 PM
That's the problem, dealers, repair shops out to fark you.
Took my truck, 07 Dodge Diesel in yesterday, steering box had locked up, no time to fix it myself. Found the box and PS pump online at Napa across the street from the shop. Told the shop those were the parts I wanted, $200 for both, lifetime warranty. Shop calls me and says they can't do it, those parts are only for a gas motor truck, need the pump and box from Dodge dlr, $900! Had to tell them I'd yank my truck from their shop if they didn't go across the street to Napa, get the parts and stab them in my truck!

Now you just have to convince them that it won't take $700 of labor:D

JimN
08-11-2010, 12:12 PM
First post...

2001 X-9 Owner, stock 310 hp engine.

My story is about the same as many. Ran low or possibly out of gas Sunday, August 8th, 2010. Filled up with gas but no start on Monday. Hoping for quick fix we called the boat dealer and were told that the fuel pump was most likely toast and that a new one was roughly $400 plus labor.

One friend found this forum where we discovered that you don't need the whole assembly, just the little pump inside.

Took the old pump out but O'Rielly's could not cross the part. We phoned a friend and he told us to get a pump for a 1992 Ford Tempo??? Bought a Bestest BE2065 pump, some bulk gasket material and some gas line removal tools (didn't know what size so I bought the a whole set for about $11) all for about $105 total. Installing was very easy and straight forward, except the darn kink prone black hose. It fits on really, really tight. It took us over an hour to get that hose on. We tried lube and tools and heat (heat seems to make it worse, like heat shrink). Eventually we finally got it far enough and called it good.

The Bestest is very similar but not exactly the same as the stock Carver.

Anyhow it is all put back together and working fine but I'm worried that the pressure might not be right. Info on these pumps is annoyingly hard to come by. I read somewhere that multi-port pumps are typically around 60psi and that throttle body pumps are down around 15 to 20psi. The X-9 definitely has throttle body injection, you can see the twin injectors working if you take the air cleaner off. Anybody know what pressure pump I should be running?

Found this on eBay (dang thing is only $20):


Part Number: BE2065

CROSS REFERENCE:

AIRTEX REF # E2065 - E2001

BOSH: F 000 TE1 665
CARTER: P74123, P74124, P74104, P74118
DELPHI: V22 2788 23
FIAT: 46411584
FORD: F0AZ-9H307C(99'P299), F69Z 9H307AA, E99Z9H307A, F17Z9H307B, F21Z9H307L, F29Z9H307A, F39Z9H307A

PRESSURE: 3BAR

FLOW: 95L/H

So, you're saying that yours worked for 9 years and went out because the tank was low this time? Really?

lakedude
08-11-2010, 06:34 PM
So, you're saying that yours worked for 9 years and went out because the tank was low this time? Really?
It is quite a coincidence that we ran low/out of fuel and then the pump would not work, don't you think? I normally don't let the tank get that low, and I'll not let it get low again for sure.

If mine was the only case you might say that the fuel pump went out and that is why it seemed like we were out of gas but the since many others have had similar issues and since the fuel gauge was around "E" it is a pretty safe bet that we ran low or out of fuel and that running low/out caused the pump to burn up.

Unfortunately we filled up (thinking the boat would run) so I never checked to see if the tank was truly empty. Also the gas pump limited me to $75 so you can't tell how low it was from how much gas it took to fill, since it didn't get completely full.

My car is 10 years old and has a lot more hours on it than the boat, do you think I should be worried about the fuel pump in the car?

2manytoys
08-15-2010, 01:07 PM
04 x2 with mcx .......idled around watching a compitition....then quick run back to the dock. Ran fine but died at the dock. I can hear the fuel pump whirring at key on..but not as loud as it used to. Checked the fuel rail and no pressure. I assume its the pump but kinda confused at all of the different part numbers being thrown around. Can someone with the same setup steer me in the right direction

Wake2004
08-15-2010, 01:51 PM
I used the Bosch 69118, the most popular seems to be the airtex 2044 if you take these models to your local parts store they should be able to cross reference to something that they have instock.

Rice
08-16-2010, 02:08 AM
Hi guys, unfortunately I too am now having to replace my fuel pump in my '03 X30. I ordered the Airtex E2044 pump and threw it in this weekend. At first, everything was great. The boat started right up, idles great, and can even rev the engine just fine when in neutral. However, under load (either guning it or getting up to full speed too quickly) the engine sputters and dies out. If I accelerate slowly to top speed, it runs great. If i keep it under 2500 RPMs, everything works great as well. Also, after getting it to sputter, if I cruise at min speed it eventually chokes and dies out. At this point, it will not start back up. If I let it sit for about 5 mins, it then starts right back up as if nothing was wrong.

I double and tripple checked my seal around the regulator and I am fairly confident that it is not leaking here. I have not had a chance to get a fuel pressure gauge to validate the 58psi but wanted to check here to see if others have had these types of issues.

We are having some pretty spectacular weather here in Seattle this week and my friends are getting restless:) Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Wake2004
08-16-2010, 03:50 AM
Hi guys, unfortunately I too am now having to replace my fuel pump in my '03 X30. I ordered the Airtex E2044 pump and threw it in this weekend. At first, everything was great. The boat started right up, idles great, and can even rev the engine just fine when in neutral. However, under load (either guning it or getting up to full speed too quickly) the engine sputters and dies out. If I accelerate slowly to top speed, it runs great. If i keep it under 2500 RPMs, everything works great as well. Also, after getting it to sputter, if I cruise at min speed it eventually chokes and dies out. At this point, it will not start back up. If I let it sit for about 5 mins, it then starts right back up as if nothing was wrong.

I double and tripple checked my seal around the regulator and I am fairly confident that it is not leaking here. I have not had a chance to get a fuel pressure gauge to validate the 58psi but wanted to check here to see if others have had these types of issues.

We are having some pretty spectacular weather here in Seattle this week and my friends are getting restless:) Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Check for a kink in the fuel line from the pump to the regulator.

Rice
08-16-2010, 11:28 AM
Definitely no kinks there. I replaced the original hose with regular fuel line hose (I know it is not rated for in-tank-use but I need something that will last for a while until we can figure out the right hose). Other suggestions?

brucemac
08-16-2010, 05:13 PM
rice sorry to hear that. do you have the old hose you could try or did it get destroyed on the install?

i ordered up the 8in flex hose from apeusa.com along with 3 stainless clamps (1 extra in case i need it on the regulator side)

http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/pics/flexhose.jpg

hopefully you get it figured out. i just ordered the last E2044 (last one in stock anyway) from amazon.com to take on my houseboat trip next week.

my bet is it's the hose and or the seal at one of the barbs. did you try using more than one clamp on the regulator side?

2manytoys
08-19-2010, 02:25 PM
Thanks to all the great guys and previous post on here. I just replaced my fuel pump with the aerotex 2044.. was able to use a heat gun and heat the end of the black hose going into the pump itself and it slid right off and onto the new pump.. then reclamped it... reinstalled into boat and i now have pressure on the rail and it cranked right up.. will take it to the lake for a test run and report back.

Morningrun
08-22-2010, 06:08 PM
Hey guys, I was bitten by the fuel pump issue today.... Been looking at the threads concerning the possible aftermarket replacements. I have a Prostar with the L-18 (per thread, requiring 53-58 PSI) With all the numbers provided... which pump works for the L-18? The number on my module reads: Carter 71-330S CGB 98-002-2 Any help is appreciated. Thanks, Chris

rhsprostar
08-22-2010, 07:58 PM
Brucemac, did you order these plastic tubes? Do they fit? I am going to order up a few this week to try them.......


rice sorry to hear that. do you have the old hose you could try or did it get destroyed on the install?

i ordered up the 8in flex hose from apeusa.com along with 3 stainless clamps (1 extra in case i need it on the regulator side)

http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/pics/flexhose.jpg

hopefully you get it figured out. i just ordered the last E2044 (last one in stock anyway) from amazon.com to take on my houseboat trip next week.

my bet is it's the hose and or the seal at one of the barbs. did you try using more than one clamp on the regulator side?

Wake2004
08-23-2010, 02:35 PM
Here is some additional information that some might feel helpful:

1. I made this plate out of 1/8' aluminum to block off the tank while I was working on the fuel module. This is now stored in the tool kit in the boat so that if I need to replace the pump while on the water I can put the plate on to keep fuel from spilling out of the tank.
2. I found this nylon 5/16" fuel line hose at Napa part #730-5613 it comes in a 10' roll for around $15. I tried some other lines that seemed to kink too easily, this line will still kink as it took me 2 tries to get it in but it does seem to be more robust and since it is packaged in a roll it already has some bend to it.
3. I suggest cutting a 12" section of hose, this seems to be just enough to still be able to fit into the module. To flare the end to fit onto the pump side you can either boil the hose in water for 10min. or use a heat gun, after it is hot slide the tip of needle nose pliers into it and expand the pliers to create the flare.
4. The trick to not kink the hose while installing it into the module is to create the loop before you slide the pump and hose assembly into the cup of the module. If you try to create the loop after the pump is already installed you are more likely to kink the hose.
5. I tested this setup this past weekend fuel pressure held solid at 571/2 psi at all RPMs. Solid performance. I still need to find a new seal for my pump head, hopefully I will come across an old module before next season.

I cannot guarantee that this nylon hose is the correct stuff and if anyone would like to add to this I would appreciate it. I also have the APE hose on order and will keep it as back up once I get it.

rhsprostar
08-23-2010, 02:54 PM
Wake2004...nice work. I hope you will never need that plate again as the aftermarket pumps we are putting into the modules are hopefuly of a much better quality and design than the ones from Carter.
I am very curious about the hose from APE. Did you order the longer one? Please keep us posted as I wanted to order this myself this week. My aftermarket fuel pump has been in for over two years with a regular piece of fuel line between the regulator and pump. I am worried that the hose is breaking down in the tank although I do not have an issue....yet.

Jerseydave
08-23-2010, 05:51 PM
Wow, incredible thread! It raises a few questions in my mind:

1) Is anyone at MC realizing how many owners are having pump failures?

2) What is MC doing about it, besides selling us replacement fuel pump modules....and have they been updated with a better quality pump or the same low quality ones from years ago?
(It's my understanding that dealers have to change your module, not just the pump. Liability reason I think)

I changed my fuel filter after having trouble when I reached 1/3 tank of fuel. Since then the boat runs fine, but I will not allow my tank to go below 1/2 full. So my 53 gal tank is basically a 26 gal tank...run the boat for 5 hours then re-fuel.

Should I buy a spare pump, or module, or wait for a service bulletin from MC?

djkslc
08-23-2010, 06:07 PM
Latest fuel pump potential failure. The key is turned on, you can hear the pump prime and then it starts right up and the pump keeps priming - never turned off. The boat ran fine, but I replaced it figuring that it will burn up at some point. Ran fine on a fake lake in the driveway, will test it at the lake this weekend. Not too hard of a job.

CruisinGA
08-23-2010, 06:17 PM
Should I buy a spare pump, or module, or wait for a service bulletin from MC?

Buy a spare pump! I got mine for about $50!

Wake2004
08-23-2010, 09:10 PM
Wake2004...nice work. I hope you will never need that plate again as the aftermarket pumps we are putting into the modules are hopefuly of a much better quality and design than the ones from Carter.
I am very curious about the hose from APE. Did you order the longer one? Please keep us posted as I wanted to order this myself this week. My aftermarket fuel pump has been in for over two years with a regular piece of fuel line between the regulator and pump. I am worried that the hose is breaking down in the tank although I do not have an issue....yet.

Yea I hope that I will not ever need that plate but I have seen enough people here post that they have gone though several of these pumps also.

I ordered the 8" hose from APE I think it will be plenty long. With the small tank that is in my 205v I do not think the long hose would fit.

sixysixss
08-27-2010, 01:16 PM
Is everyone re-using the crimp style clamps on the hose, or replacing them with stainless screw type clamps?

Jerseydave
08-29-2010, 12:55 PM
Unother update:

You 5.7 engine guys are lucky!

2 delco fuel pumps will fit your module. As stated in prior posts, the delco ep356 will work (has compatible psi and flow rate specs). In my quest for the proper fuel pump for my lq9, I came across another delco pump. An ep369. Has same specs as the 356. But the exterior design is almost identical to the carter from my boat. Both made by walbro (stamped on pump body).

Pic below (l to r - ep369, my carter pump, ep356)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v282/rvskodak/compare.jpg

Question, on my '05 MCX engine, would the wise pump choice be the ep369? I think I need at least 50-53 psi. (my parts dealer has that pump available for $113)
I'm looking to buy one now so I have a spare ready to go in case my pump fails someday.

Wake2004
08-29-2010, 10:05 PM
Is everyone re-using the crimp style clamps on the hose, or replacing them with stainless screw type clamps?

I used the crimp style clamps as I could not find small enough screw type.

rhsprostar
08-30-2010, 02:40 PM
Yea I hope that I will not ever need that plate but I have seen enough people here post that they have gone though several of these pumps also.

I ordered the 8" hose from APE I think it will be plenty long. With the small tank that is in my 205v I do not think the long hose would fit.

I may be mistaken BUT i think that I have not heard of ANY failures of the pumps that have been replaced by aftermarket pumps.....
There have been many repeated failures of people who have replaced the entire fuel module (to the tune of about $500) with the mastercraft/carter part......

ntidsl
08-30-2010, 02:58 PM
I'm a month into my airtex 2065 on my mcx and not an issue...very happy. I have my airtex 2044 as a spare in my glove box along with the correct allen key.

CruisinGA
08-30-2010, 05:18 PM
What's the difference between the two pumps?

brucemac
09-03-2010, 01:37 PM
Brucemac, did you order these plastic tubes? Do they fit? I am going to order up a few this week to try them.......

yes, i ordered the 8in'er along a few stainless clamps and then the airtex 2044 and fuel line disconnect tool from amazon. i have not had to use it yet, so can't comment on whether the fuel line from APE will fit or not, but it should. i just wanted to have a repair kit in the boat for roadtrips.

tcharoni
09-04-2010, 12:30 AM
I just got burned on a houseboat trip to shasta where my 2002 MC Prostar 209 quit working.......fuel pump. It ruined the whole trip of a lifetime. The boat ran perfect up until that very moment. I ran the tank down on purpose prior to the trip so I wouldn't have to tow all that weight around.......bad move? I just got a new pump installed. The part was $673. Did I get ripped? I have replaced the shower pump, heater core, fuel pump, steering cable, and only have 196 hours on the boat. Maybe the Nautique was the way to go???

Thanks for the awesome post Boofer. I learned a lot.

brucemac
09-04-2010, 05:29 AM
nautique clearly! ;)

tcharoni
09-04-2010, 12:20 PM
Is it just me, or is it complete BS that we have to find a place to store extra parts in our boats so that not if, but when they fall apart we can fix them. Maybe MC should design a spare parts locker in the boat to accomodate this. The boats are great, but they cheap out on all the components to save money.....even though we pay a premium for the MC name!

TX.X-30 fan
09-04-2010, 12:59 PM
I just got burned on a houseboat trip to shasta where my 2002 MC Prostar 209 quit working.......fuel pump. It ruined the whole trip of a lifetime. The boat ran perfect up until that very moment. I ran the tank down on purpose prior to the trip so I wouldn't have to tow all that weight around.......bad move? I just got a new pump installed. The part was $673. Did I get ripped? I have replaced the shower pump, heater core, fuel pump, steering cable, and only have 196 hours on the boat. Maybe the Nautique was the way to go???

Thanks for the awesome post Boofer. I learned a lot.




The pump is 100 or less and takes about an hour and 2 beers so I say yes you took it dry on that repair.

Sorry about the trip but I bet a parts store within driving distance would have had a pump.

TX.X-30 fan
09-04-2010, 01:02 PM
Is it just me, or is it complete BS that we have to find a place to store extra parts in our boats so that not if, but when they fall apart we can fix them. Maybe MC should design a spare parts locker in the boat to accomodate this. The boats are great, but they cheap out on all the components to save money.....even though we pay a premium for the MC name!




You should have gotten a Malibu, great second post though.................:rolleyes:

JimN
09-04-2010, 01:15 PM
I just got burned on a houseboat trip to shasta where my 2002 MC Prostar 209 quit working.......fuel pump. It ruined the whole trip of a lifetime. The boat ran perfect up until that very moment. I ran the tank down on purpose prior to the trip so I wouldn't have to tow all that weight around.......bad move? I just got a new pump installed. The part was $673. Did I get ripped? I have replaced the shower pump, heater core, fuel pump, steering cable, and only have 196 hours on the boat. Maybe the Nautique was the way to go???

Thanks for the awesome post Boofer. I learned a lot.

Unless you had to start/stop and pull it uphill all the way, there was nothing to be gained by draining the tank. If you ran it dry, it's not MC's fault that the pump died- they warn against this in the manual and car manuals say the same thing since the MC pump IS a car fuel pump.

"Cheap out on all the parts"? Make a list and look at all of the other boats, so you can see how many are used by other manufacturers.

FYI- when a boat sits for most of its life, parts go bad. Cars are the same and when they sit at the dealer for a long time, they experience "lot rot", which is when parts go bad for no apparent reason. 196 hours in 8 years is almost worth renting a boat instead of buying. Assuming the somewhat typical average Memorial Day to Labor Day season of 13 weeks, it hasn't gotten even 2 hours per week of use. They're made to be used, not to sit. How old was the gas when you started it the first time this year? Old gas, bad gas and gas that has water in it kills fuel pumps and it doesn't matter what kind.

Wake2004
09-04-2010, 10:52 PM
For the record it seems that all manufactures that use a intank fuel module have this problem. I stopped by the local BU dealer here in CO because they are a incredible dealer. The head tech said that they have the same problem with fuel pumps as they use the same Carter pump, which as previously stated they are the only pump coast gaurd approved (as I am told). I spent some time on some other forums to see if the problem existed and it seems they all have their issues if it is not an intank pump then they seem to have vapor lock issues and cannot restart a hot engine. With Mastercraft selling so many boats I think the problem arises more often here due to quantity of boats out there. Just my thoughts.

bfinley
09-06-2010, 01:08 AM
I have a 2006 X2 with the MCX Motor. I'd like to buy a pump to keep in my toolkit. Which of these pumps is most appropriate, I've seen all three of them mentioned in this thread:

AC Delco EP369: http://www.amazon.com/ACDelco-EP369-Fuel-Pump/dp/B000C9QXPU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1283747246&sr=8-1

Bosch 69118: http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-69118-Original-Equipment-Replacement/dp/B0027Z98ZE/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I37IPZ4FYRZ01S&colid=D8EN8H75M8KA

Airtex E2065 http://www.amazon.com/Airtex-E2065-Electric-Fuel-Pump/dp/B000C1HK2I/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I2X4E99DPNGBJS&colid=D8EN8H75M8KA

Do I need to buy hose and clamps, or will the stuff in these kits (like the Bosch one) be OK??

Wake2004
09-06-2010, 01:26 PM
I have a 2006 X2 with the MCX Motor. I'd like to buy a pump to keep in my toolkit. Which of these pumps is most appropriate, I've seen all three of them mentioned in this thread:

AC Delco EP369: http://www.amazon.com/ACDelco-EP369-Fuel-Pump/dp/B000C9QXPU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1283747246&sr=8-1

Bosch 69118: http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-69118-Original-Equipment-Replacement/dp/B0027Z98ZE/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I37IPZ4FYRZ01S&colid=D8EN8H75M8KA

Airtex E2065 http://www.amazon.com/Airtex-E2065-Electric-Fuel-Pump/dp/B000C1HK2I/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I2X4E99DPNGBJS&colid=D8EN8H75M8KA

Do I need to buy hose and clamps, or will the stuff in these kits (like the Bosch one) be OK??


I can only speak for the Bosch as it works for my boat but you do need to purchase a hose either the one from napa or one from APE as you are very likely to damage the existing hose.

TOO-TALL
09-07-2010, 05:54 PM
I have a 2006 X2 with the MCX Motor. I'd like to buy a pump to keep in my toolkit. Which of these pumps is most appropriate, I've seen all three of them mentioned in this thread:

AC Delco EP369: http://www.amazon.com/ACDelco-EP369-Fuel-Pump/dp/B000C9QXPU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1283747246&sr=8-1

Bosch 69118: http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-69118-Original-Equipment-Replacement/dp/B0027Z98ZE/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I37IPZ4FYRZ01S&colid=D8EN8H75M8KA

Airtex E2065 http://www.amazon.com/Airtex-E2065-Electric-Fuel-Pump/dp/B000C1HK2I/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I2X4E99DPNGBJS&colid=D8EN8H75M8KA

Do I need to buy hose and clamps, or will the stuff in these kits (like the Bosch one) be OK??


I've got 90 hrs on the Airtex...so far so good.

brucemac
09-10-2010, 04:54 PM
too-tall did you do the 2065? i see that more and more, but i bought the 2044 (as a backup) that will still work won't it for the MCX?

TOO-TALL
09-10-2010, 09:51 PM
I installed the 2044....It works fine.

sheahunter
09-13-2010, 10:48 AM
Hi, I have gone through several fuel pumps on my 06 197 and my 03 x5. What a PIMYA and a horrible example of MC not caring about the customer. While I now have the E2044 in my glove box;
I have just found on EBAY the following Carter pump.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CARTER-FEDERAL-MASTERCRAFT-RETURNLESS-BOAT-FUEL-PUMP-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem2c54965229QQitemZ19039 7698601QQptZBoatQ5fPartsQ5fAccessoriesQ5fGear

JimN
09-13-2010, 11:54 AM
Hi, I have gone through several fuel pumps on my 06 197 and my 03 x5. What a PIMYA and a horrible example of MC not caring about the customer. While I now have the E2044 in my glove box;
I have just found on EBAY the following Carter pump.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CARTER-FEDERAL-MASTERCRAFT-RETURNLESS-BOAT-FUEL-PUMP-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem2c54965229QQitemZ19039 7698601QQptZBoatQ5fPartsQ5fAccessoriesQ5fGear

How many times does someone need to post that a manufacturer can't just haul off and change the fuel pump and that the Coast Guard has to approve it before some of get the point? What have you done in an attempt to work out something with MC? If all you did was come here and biatch about it, then the answer is "Nothing".

sheahunter
09-14-2010, 01:47 PM
How many times does someone need to post that a manufacturer can't just haul off and change the fuel pump and that the Coast Guard has to approve it before some of get the point? What have you done in an attempt to work out something with MC? If all you did was come here and biatch about it, then the answer is "Nothing".

Wow, all I did was give my experience. And some really good advice for finding a great price on the approved MC pump. You have no idea what I have done with MC. I had extensive discussions with senior management. The only way MC could respond is by extending the warranty to cover the 2 pumps I have gone through in 2 years, which they kindly told me "no way".

JimN
09-14-2010, 05:11 PM
Wow, all I did was give my experience. And some really good advice for finding a great price on the approved MC pump. You have no idea what I have done with MC. I had extensive discussions with senior management. The only way MC could respond is by extending the warranty to cover the 2 pumps I have gone through in 2 years, which they kindly told me "no way".

You're right- I have no idea what lengths you have gone to with MC but when you post "What a PIMYA and a horrible example of MC not caring about the customer.", it's preaching to the choir. We've heard it before but you could have included more info in the post I responded to. We don't read minds here- at least I don't.

Did they tell you what they have found to be the cause of the pumps failing? What is the difference between the Carter replacement and the OEM?

wjpbrand
10-04-2010, 01:07 PM
The three screws that were removed as shown in the pic. Were they tight? My white casing is loose and able to move up and down on the metal bracket. Should it be able to do this or should it be screwed tight to the housing?

Wake2004
10-04-2010, 04:31 PM
Should be able to slide the cup up and down (screws are tight but they have a spacer in them to allow the movement).

boofer
10-05-2010, 05:14 AM
Been a while since I have been here. Looks like some advancement in effort to figure out alternatives. I am just curious if anyone has used this "flexy" clear/corrugated hose. What is the inside diameter of the ends?

smoketu
10-05-2010, 07:51 AM
Been a while since I have been here. Looks like some advancement in effort to figure out alternatives. I am just curious if anyone has used this "flexy" clear/corrugated hose. What is the inside diameter of the ends?

I'm assuming you are talking about the one from APEusa.com. It is 5/16 on both ends. I retrofitted a piece of the old black hose inside of the end that connects to the pump and used a s.s. hose clamp to hold. That's been about 25 hours or so with no issues, sorry no pics of install.

amcmac
08-01-2011, 04:49 PM
Thanks to all for this thread, it helped so much in replacing my fuel pump. I replaced my fuel pump last week and i'm now at the lake for a week. So far the boat runs great except for starting. Everytime I leave the boat sit for a few minutes, when I go to start it, the engine cranks for several seconds before it starts. Before it would start everytime by bumping the key. It seems like the fuel needs to be pumped from the tank or something. When I replaced the pump I was getting 58 psi. I did notice I forgot to put the cap back on the fuel rail schradder valve. It is at home in the garage and I'll put it back on when I get home. However, I don't think that should cause a problem. Any suggestions?

JimN
08-01-2011, 05:08 PM
Thanks to all for this thread, it helped so much in replacing my fuel pump. I replaced my fuel pump last week and i'm now at the lake for a week. So far the boat runs great except for starting. Everytime I leave the boat sit for a few minutes, when I go to start it, the engine cranks for several seconds before it starts. Before it would start everytime by bumping the key. It seems like the fuel needs to be pumped from the tank or something. When I replaced the pump I was getting 58 psi. I did notice I forgot to put the cap back on the fuel rail schradder valve. It is at home in the garage and I'll put it back on when I get home. However, I don't think that should cause a problem. Any suggestions?

How old is the filter? Have you ever taken a fuel sample?

The valve is more of a safety issue- if it's bumped while pressurized,.....

amcmac
08-01-2011, 05:21 PM
How old is the filter? Have you ever taken a fuel sample?

The valve is more of a safety issue- if it's bumped while pressurized,.....

Replaced the filter when I did the pump. Never have taken a sample but I just filed the tank on the way to the lake.

bmargol
08-08-2011, 05:09 PM
Mine looks similar but has 2 copper rod springs going around it and no metal sleeves. 05 197 MCX.
The top of the metal plate says Carter #71-341S
This should be the same right?
Thanks
Bruce:)

Imawreck
09-05-2011, 09:20 PM
Hey guys,
Yup...I'm another with a likely fuel supply issue. My question is this: When all you are reporting your fuel pump was the culprit...did your pump "run" but not build the necessary pressure? Mine runs as soon as the key is turned far enough...the motor turns over but won't run, and then the pump continues to run for about 3 sec. after turning the key off. I would take the $75 route to cure without question but in the process of trying to pry off the bag filter inside the assembly (because it looked completely clogged and I wanted to check it out) I accidentially sliced the bag with the small screwdriver I was using. Anyway...now I have two problems: 1) need to get a new pump which I "think" is the root of my troubles 2) I have to find where I can get one of these filterbags with the appropriate design and correct size connector ring! Any suggestions? The AutoZone place I stopped at had no filter with a similar design :( Am I screwed and need to buy the entire OEM replacement unit? If MC won't sell the pump independent, I doubt I'll be able to get my hands on the filter. Any help is appreciated. Thanks!

mcxfan
09-06-2011, 01:32 PM
Hey everyone,
I too just had my fuel pump fail. I have an 06' X2 (MCX) with 349hrs. I went to Autozone and bought the Airtex 2065 and installed it last night. The boat did not start at first so I made sure the electrical connection on the top of the unit was seated properly. Once I did that I got pressure at the fuel rail and she started right up. Now I need to test her out on the water. More to come after testing......
BTW, keep up on the discussions. I can't tell you how many times I come to the Teamtalk Board for info before even looking at my manual or calling the dealer. Thanks Teamtalkers!!!!!!

Honkity Hank
05-03-2012, 04:49 PM
I am getting ready to replace the fuel pump in my 2000 LTR 330 (prostar 205). I have the delco pump, some new fuel lines, and a new filter. Is there anything else that should be replaced or serviced while I am at it? I did not see (but frankly did not search for it either) an external fuel filter or a gas/water separator somewhere?

I will post some pictures and do a write up for posterity (assuming all goes well)

JimN
05-03-2012, 04:55 PM
I am getting ready to replace the fuel pump in my 2000 LTR 330 (prostar 205). I have the delco pump, some new fuel lines, and a new filter. Is there anything else that should be replaced or serviced while I am at it? I did not see (but frankly did not search for it either) an external fuel filter or a gas/water separator somewhere?

I will post some pictures and do a write up for posterity (assuming all goes well)

Unless the lines are actually damaged, you don't need to replace them. The filter is at the bottom of the pump.

Honkity Hank
05-03-2012, 05:01 PM
Yes the plan is to reuse the existing fuel line in the tank, I got a replacement in case I bugger it up. The lines external to the tank will not be touched. I got a new filter and it came with a new tank gasket, so should be good to go there. If no other filters then this should be fairly straight forward.

agarabaghi
05-06-2012, 10:59 AM
installed the fuel pump in the old module and the boat fired up. Ran it through about 1/2 a tank yesterday no issues.

One thing ive noticed is that i dont hear the pump prime anymore. Maybe the new pump is just quieter

beatle78
06-19-2012, 03:18 PM
Hi guys,

Long time, I know. Don't wouldn't start after the winter. 0 PSI on fuel rail. I have a Carter CGB 98-002. Will this be a drop in replacement? It is a 98-002-03

http://greatlakesskipper.com/product/37_263-boat-engines-engine-parts-and-accessories-misc-motor-supplies/2844-carter-federal-mogul-carter-federal-mastercraft-71-343s-boat-fuel-pump-system-98-002-3.html

ntidsl
06-19-2012, 03:26 PM
I'm a month into my airtex 2065 on my mcx and not an issue...very happy. I have my airtex 2044 as a spare in my glove box along with the correct allen key.

Looks like I'm at almost 2 years for my replacement gents...running better everyday at 500 hours now!!!

Never even took the boat out of the water to change it out.

And what has MC done to fix the situation...well for one, they pay for this forum everyday!!! And I'm glad they do...way more info that you would ever get from a dealer or a manual all in one easy to search forum with very little jargon!

ntidsl
06-19-2012, 03:27 PM
Hi guys,

Long time, I know. Don't wouldn't start after the winter. 0 PSI on fuel rail. I have a Carter CGB 98-002. Will this be a drop in replacement? It is a 98-002-03

http://greatlakesskipper.com/product/37_263-boat-engines-engine-parts-and-accessories-misc-motor-supplies/2844-carter-federal-mogul-carter-federal-mastercraft-71-343s-boat-fuel-pump-system-98-002-3.html

Gosh it sure looks like!
Nice find!

beatle78
06-19-2012, 03:35 PM
p.s. I have an '01 205V w/ LTR motor.

JLMax16
07-25-2012, 01:32 AM
So I replaced my fuel pump back in '09 through Mastercraft ($650 later! PLUS labor!) They replaced that entire fuel sending unit. Boat ran great up until the end of last season. Was cruising back to the launch ramp @ 30MPH and suddenly had a huge drop in power, RPM's jumping all around. A few seconds later it stopped. Figured it was due to almost being out of fuel. I've taken it out twice since then, had a little bit of the erratic RPM's, but this last trip it was WAY worse. Couldn't even pull a wakeboarder faster than 10MPH do to lack of power. Would those symptoms lead you guys to believe my fuel pump is going out? The last time it died, it went out all at once. Another issue I've been having is hot starting, cold starts are no problem. If I run the engine up to temp, shut off, then come back to start it 10min later and it will turn over but only start if WOT. Related issue?

In an unrelated issue, if I get up to 4k RPM's (35MPH) the boat bounces up and down uncontrollably like I'm riding in rough water, but I'm actually on flat water. Any ideas? Thanks.

JLMax16
07-25-2012, 01:48 AM
This may be a dumb question, but is there a OBD-II port somewhere? Check codes?

JimN
07-25-2012, 07:36 AM
This may be a dumb question, but is there a OBD-II port somewhere? Check codes?

Yours is OBDI- OBDII started in '06. The port is at the rear of the engine and is black & gray.

JimN
07-25-2012, 07:37 AM
So I replaced my fuel pump back in '09 through Mastercraft ($650 later! PLUS labor!) They replaced that entire fuel sending unit. Boat ran great up until the end of last season. Was cruising back to the launch ramp @ 30MPH and suddenly had a huge drop in power, RPM's jumping all around. A few seconds later it stopped. Figured it was due to almost being out of fuel. I've taken it out twice since then, had a little bit of the erratic RPM's, but this last trip it was WAY worse. Couldn't even pull a wakeboarder faster than 10MPH do to lack of power. Would those symptoms lead you guys to believe my fuel pump is going out? The last time it died, it went out all at once. Another issue I've been having is hot starting, cold starts are no problem. If I run the engine up to temp, shut off, then come back to start it 10min later and it will turn over but only start if WOT. Related issue?

In an unrelated issue, if I get up to 4k RPM's (35MPH) the boat bounces up and down uncontrollably like I'm riding in rough water, but I'm actually on flat water. Any ideas? Thanks.

You didn't change the TPS, did you?

Since the fuel line has a Shrader valve, I don't know why anyone has to guess. CHECK THE FUEL PRESSURE.

BallBushing
07-25-2012, 10:41 AM
Check your transmission cooler for debris. Mine was clogged with weeds and it caused the rpm's to jump around then finally stop the engine. Got progressively worse prior to cleaning.

JLMax16
07-31-2012, 08:22 PM
Yours is OBDI- OBDII started in '06. The port is at the rear of the engine and is black & gray.
Do you think it would give me any codes if I took it in to get it read?

You didn't change the TPS, did you?

Since the fuel line has a Shrader valve, I don't know why anyone has to guess. CHECK THE FUEL PRESSURE.
I don't know what a TPS is. I've been out of town since I posted this, when I get back I plan on checking the fuel pressure. I was just hoping to avoid buying a $40 gauge to use for 2.5 seconds.

Check your transmission cooler for debris. Mine was clogged with weeds and it caused the rpm's to jump around then finally stop the engine. Got progressively worse prior to cleaning.
Where would I find the transmission cooler? Is it connected with the water intake that cools the motor? Also, I have the Orca closed cooling system if that changes anything. I drain the tranny fluid every season. But what you described sounds a lot like what I have going on. Though it does it as soon as I get on the gas, even with the tranny cold, would that make a difference?

I'm good with cars, trucks, dirt bikes, quads and fire engines. Boats are new to me, thanks for dealing with my learning curve.

JimN
07-31-2012, 08:42 PM
Do you think it would give me any codes if I took it in to get it read?


I don't know what a TPS is. I've been out of town since I posted this, when I get back I plan on checking the fuel pressure. I was just hoping to avoid buying a $40 gauge to use for 2.5 seconds.


Where would I find the transmission cooler? Is it connected with the water intake that cools the motor? Also, I have the Orca closed cooling system if that changes anything. I drain the tranny fluid every season. But what you described sounds a lot like what I have going on. Though it does it as soon as I get on the gas, even with the tranny cold, would that make a difference?

I'm good with cars, trucks, dirt bikes, quads and fire engines. Boats are new to me, thanks for dealing with my learning curve.

There's no way for anyone here to know if it will show any codes.

TPS is the Throttle Position Sensor and if the original was replaced with one for the LT-1. it would show 100% throttle position when your throttle plate is closed, and closed when your plate is wide open. 100% throttle position is how you would clear a flooded RFI engine- it stops the injectors from firing because the ECM is programmed to do that.

The oil cooler is between the hull fitting for raw water and the engine and has two oil lines that go to the transmission. The transmission being cold doesn't matter- it's the engine temperature that matters. If the oil cooler is clogged, having closed cooling doesn't really matter because the heat exchanger needs to be cooled in order to remove heat from the stored coolant.

If you know fuel injection in cars, you shouldn't have a problem with a boat like this- it has a car/truck engine. Some of the methods and settings are a bit different, but the principles are the same.

Here's a basic breakdown of EFI-

The throttle position sensor obviously tells the ECM where the throttle is and this is not only used for idle speed and fuel delivery on hard acceleration, it's also for letting the ECM know that it should stop fuel delivery on hard deceleration. If it fails completely, the ECM defaults to 12% throttle position and throws a code.

The MAP sensor acts as a vacuum gauge for the ECM- if the vacuum is high (closed throttle plate), less gas is needed and if the vacuum is low, more is needed. It tells the ECM the barometric pressure when the key is turned to ON, too.

IAC- Idle Air Control motor- it sets the idle speed when the throttle plate is closed, according to the ECM programming. It follows the throttle's movement- if it opens a lot, the IAC opens to make the transition from one RPM to another smoother (removes stumble). This can still work but if the throttle follower doesn't work correctly, the engine stumbles.

The TPS, MAP sensor and ECT (Engine Coolant Temperature) sensors tell the ECM how much fuel to deliver under all conditions.

BTW- it takes a lot longer than 2.5 seconds to check the fuel pressure. Key ON fuel pressure is NOT what you need to look for. It's only one of the things to look at, but fuel pressure at idle, 2K RPM and WOT need to be checked, too. Pressure at key ON tells absolutely nothing about how well the pressure is maintained when it's running at high speed.

Some auto parts stores loan tools, including fuel pressure gauges. You don't need to buy one, but it's a good tool to have.

JLMax16
08-01-2012, 12:13 AM
I've never changed the TPS. I did however change the ECT sensor last year and also the MAP sensor (this one is connected to the intake manifold right?). So if my fuel pressure checks out ok, then I should look into the TPS. My engine will idle up fine, it's only when it's under load that it dips out. Will I have to take the boat out with the fuel pressure gauge to get an accurate reading?

JimN
08-01-2012, 04:08 AM
I've never changed the TPS. I did however change the ECT sensor last year and also the MAP sensor (this one is connected to the intake manifold right?). So if my fuel pressure checks out ok, then I should look into the TPS. My engine will idle up fine, it's only when it's under load that it dips out. Will I have to take the boat out with the fuel pressure gauge to get an accurate reading?

The engine needs to be under load when the pressure is tested- that means in the water, in gear, at speed. This doesn't work on the trailer or at the dock.

Why did you replace the MAP sensor and ECT? If the temperature gauge didn't regster correctly, you would have needed to check the sender with one wire and that has nothing to do with the temperature reading the ECM sees.

Don't just throw parts at it- it only wastes time & money and adds to the frustration.

TommyRado
08-02-2012, 07:53 PM
Hats off to you Boofer. My X30 LQ9 continued to start/stop/start stop on my wife and her girlie friends last Sunday. So I hit the threads and found your detailed instructions on how to replace the module. I'm happy to say all is good and it took only 1.5 hours to do. I dropped into the lake today and had a great smooth running LQ9 again. Thanks for the detail it made tackling this so much easier and my confidence was there.

JLMax16
08-03-2012, 12:34 AM
The engine needs to be under load when the pressure is tested- that means in the water, in gear, at speed. This doesn't work on the trailer or at the dock.

Why did you replace the MAP sensor and ECT? If the temperature gauge didn't regster correctly, you would have needed to check the sender with one wire and that has nothing to do with the temperature reading the ECM sees.

Don't just throw parts at it- it only wastes time & money and adds to the frustration.

I replaced those because I was having issues with the engine (when warmed up) would only start at WOT. All the research I did led to the replacing the ECT. I replaced the MAP because it seemed to be full of oil when I took it out of the intake manifold. I don't have much in the way of tools and I've been avoiding taking it to a dealer and dropping $1000. Both of those parts I got from O'Reilly's, looking up the motor I went with a mid 90's Chevy truck.

JLMax16
08-25-2012, 01:02 AM
After checking codes on my '02 X-9 I found that the TPS sensor was faulty. After replacing that the boat runs great! BUT I'm still having warm start issues, where I have to be at WOT to start the boat. I also had an issue of the boat running at 2500RPM for 30 seconds, then dropping to 1300RPM for a few seconds, then jumping back up to 2500, I related this problem to being at 1/4 tank and the angle of the boat being such that it would slosh the fuel away from the module and when the RPM would drop it would flatten out and refill the fuel module. I'm going to test the fuel pressure tomorrow to see what I get.

Anybody here have issues with the Carter 71-332S pump??

JimN
08-25-2012, 07:34 AM
After checking codes on my '02 X-9 I found that the TPS sensor was faulty. After replacing that the boat runs great! BUT I'm still having warm start issues, where I have to be at WOT to start the boat. I also had an issue of the boat running at 2500RPM for 30 seconds, then dropping to 1300RPM for a few seconds, then jumping back up to 2500, I related this problem to being at 1/4 tank and the angle of the boat being such that it would slosh the fuel away from the module and when the RPM would drop it would flatten out and refill the fuel module. I'm going to test the fuel pressure tomorrow to see what I get.

Anybody here have issues with the Carter 71-332S pump??

If you have to be at WOT to start, it's not your pump. The ECM is programmed to not deliver any fuel at WOT while cranking and it knows the engine is cranking (as opposed to being in Run Mode) because of the RPM- <300 RPM is Crank Mode and >300 RPM is Run Mode.

The RPM issues make it seem like an IAC problem, not a sensor. If the pump is beong starved, the impeller will fail, the ECM won't raise the RPM to make it run better. What angle is the boat when this happens and why is it at an angle- when you're putting it in or taking it out of the water?

JLMax16
08-25-2012, 01:39 PM
Tested fuel pressure today. 40psi at the rail before start and while running.

The warm start issue I have is while lying flat in the water.

The other issue I was describing is separate from the warm start... this issue I have while the boat is in the water and running at 2500RPM and 10MPH, and the bow is way up in the air. After I topped off the tank the RPM dropping issue went away. Which is making me think I need to replace the fuel filter, because a full tank bypasses the filter?

Checked the IAC, seems to adjust fine. Tested it turning the key on, and it seems to move back and forth easily.

mtajpa
08-25-2012, 04:50 PM
You may have water in your tank if the bow is up the water which is heavier than gas will move to the rear of the tank and to the pump. Try to get a fuel sample with the bow as high as you can get it maybe on the trailer with the front jacked up on a block or something. Also be sure your flame arrestor is clean.

CantRepeat
05-29-2013, 10:42 AM
Did anyone get a measurement on the flexi hose?

http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/html/kits.html

They have 3 different lengths available.

edit

For $15 I just ordered all 3 of them.

/edit

GoneBoatN
05-29-2013, 11:13 AM
Did anyone get a measurement on the flexi hose?

http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/html/kits.html

They have 3 different lengths available.

edit

For $15 I just ordered all 3 of them.

/edit

I had a leak where the regulator attaches to the top of the fuel pump assembly where the gasket seals it as it passes through the top plate. Since I knew my extended warranty was going to replace the whole assembly I decided to remove it and examine the components.

The fuel line in mine was 9 inches.

Skitiger
05-29-2013, 11:31 AM
I have a 2002 Prostar 209 (509 hrs). I am having occasional engine cutouts (never stalls completely) and suspect the fuel pump after reading these forums. At the end of last season I tried to squeeze one last run in and ran out of gas. I cut the engine off immediately but suspect the damage was already done. I have ordered the Airtex E2065 and plan on doing a pre-emptive replacement in a couple of weeks.

This thread is great and I appreciate all the information here! Anything else I should be thinking about that I am not? I won't be going below 1/4 tank anymore :}

CantRepeat
05-29-2013, 11:36 AM
I had a leak where the regulator attaches to the top of the fuel pump assembly where the gasket seals it as it passes through the top plate. Since I knew my extended warranty was going to replace the whole assembly I decided to remove it and examine the components.

The fuel line in mine was 9 inches.

Thanks for the info.

jamica joe
05-31-2013, 01:01 PM
OK, I have a 2000 -- 205V with approx. 500 hours. This past weekend I experienced the first issue with my fuel pump. This was the first outing of 2013... The boat cranked like a champ on the trailer and I had one of the guys idle around the cove while I pulled the trailer out. By the time I got back to the lake, the boat had died and would not re-cank. I pulled the boat out and on the way home I dropped it off with my mechanic. It cranked the first time for him and then died with no re-start. It would do the same after waiting several hours. He hooked the pump directly to a battery and it pumped like a champ. He made a call to Rambo in Birmingham, and talked to their guru (Les??) and he said that we would need to replace a "collar" that goes around the pump. Per Rambo this seemed to fix 95% of similar issues.

Anyone know WTH he is talking about?

Thanks,

Joe

jamica joe
05-31-2013, 02:26 PM
bump...

CruisinGA
05-31-2013, 03:10 PM
Sounds like a relay or wiring to me.

JimN
05-31-2013, 10:07 PM
OK, I have a 2000 -- 205V with approx. 500 hours. This past weekend I experienced the first issue with my fuel pump. This was the first outing of 2013... The boat cranked like a champ on the trailer and I had one of the guys idle around the cove while I pulled the trailer out. By the time I got back to the lake, the boat had died and would not re-cank. I pulled the boat out and on the way home I dropped it off with my mechanic. It cranked the first time for him and then died with no re-start. It would do the same after waiting several hours. He hooked the pump directly to a battery and it pumped like a champ. He made a call to Rambo in Birmingham, and talked to their guru (Les??) and he said that we would need to replace a "collar" that goes around the pump. Per Rambo this seemed to fix 95% of similar issues.

Anyone know WTH he is talking about?

Thanks,
Joe



Define 'crank'. If you mean it wouldn't start, say "it wouldn't start". 'Crank' means the starter won't cause the engine to rotate. It's a case of semantics, but the terminology matters.

If the pump worked when the harness was bypassed, look at the plug and see if it seems to have melted plastic. If it does, you'll need to replace the plug. Do it right- solder the wires and use self-sealing heat shrink tubing. If you do it any other way, the chance of having a problem with the connections is extremely high. Most auto parts stores sell this replacement plug- you'll need to give them the part number.

Prostar20599
06-01-2013, 12:25 PM
Thank u thank u thank u! I have been tryn to figure out y my psi isn't right and couldn't find the regulator thank u!

Prostar20599
06-01-2013, 12:37 PM
So many people were saying the canister on the top was a ck valve

jamica joe
06-03-2013, 11:24 AM
Define 'crank'. If you mean it wouldn't start, say "it wouldn't start". 'Crank' means the starter won't cause the engine to rotate. It's a case of semantics, but the terminology matters.

If the pump worked when the harness was bypassed, look at the plug and see if it seems to have melted plastic. If it does, you'll need to replace the plug. Do it right- solder the wires and use self-sealing heat shrink tubing. If you do it any other way, the chance of having a problem with the connections is extremely high. Most auto parts stores sell this replacement plug- you'll need to give them the part number.
Sorry for the terminology issues... The boat started, and then died and would not re-start (it did turn over). While in the shop the same thing would happen -- the engine would start, die and then would not start. Wait a while and the same process would occur.

Tha Rambo folks recommended a replacement "collar" (sorry I don't have a better defination or part reference) for the fuel pump.

I'll now send him the suggestions you made.

R0CKETMAN
06-30-2013, 07:15 PM
'04 Maristar 230 MCX 315 hours

Had zero pressure at rail so I installed the Airtex 2044. Dry dock test starts right up and idles fine. 53psi at rail. Water test tomorrow.

Thanks to those who contributed to this thread

Hrkdrivr
07-09-2013, 10:05 PM
Asked on another thread, but does anyone know the Airtex/Walbro/AC Delco/Bosch pump part number for an L-18 engine? I picked up an Airtex E2065 at Advance Auto and was wondering if it's correct/close. I found number on another thread and seized on it...

The other Airtex I've seen mentioned is the E2044. from what I can find, both are rated at 45 GPH (free flow) but the 2065 is 90-95 PSI while the 2044 is 90-100 PSI. It doesn't seem like the pressure difference should matter, especially since the regulator drops the pressure down to ~55 psi.

thekubiaks
07-14-2013, 08:22 AM
2006 X1, 190 hours TT. First run of the season, full fuel tank. After one hour of running, idling into the dock and fuel pump failed. Dealer replaced fuel pump for $540. He said that the pump Mastercraft sent him is a newer improved design. I think I will do some more reading of this thread to see what the most recommended brand of fuel pump is and, buy a spare for the boat. I'm new to Mastercraft and am surprised by all of the issues with this brand (fuel pumps, leather interior stitching, etc) I thought buying a boat of this caliber would eliminate my having to worry about paddling in every time I leave the dock.

gotjag941
07-14-2013, 08:47 AM
Your thinking is flawed ALL boats have issues some bigger than others but still issues

bigmac
07-14-2013, 09:18 AM
Your thinking is flawed ALL boats have issues some bigger than others but still issues

Completely true. Some companies, however, do a better job than others of supporting their customers who suffer these manufacturer's defects.