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furevo
04-26-2005, 12:50 PM
There are a few areas on the fiberglass floor of my '83 S&S that seemed to have raised up. They are somewhat springy. I'm thinking that since the carpet is currently off, I should fill the voids and add a layer of fiberglass to strengthen it. I thought about drilling a couple of holes and pouring in expanding foam. Then I'd trim off the foam overflow and glass over it (but, I'm afraid the expansion of the foam may actually push the voids up even more). I also have an idea to drill and fill with epoxy & let it cure under a heavy weight, but I'm not sure how well it would adhere to the existing factory foam.

any ideas - has anyone addressed this?

martini
04-26-2005, 12:58 PM
What you are seeing is the floor separating from the stringer system, it has essentially de-laminated from the hull. The only real cure is to cut out the existing area that has separated and either lay more fiberglass and epoxy to create another floor or patch. You could also use plywood and seal it properly with fiberglass and epoxy. I would steer away from just filling the voids with foam or expoxy because you wouldn't have really fixed your problem.

wesgardner
04-26-2005, 01:04 PM
Hey furevo,

I'm not up on what's under the floor of an S&S. However, I can talk all day on the miracles and how to's and whatif's of epoxy...be careful of filling voids as too much epoxy can create heat...

If it were mine, I'd want to know WHY it raised up and what's under there. Just my opine....

You can add a bit of stiffness by adding glass cloth set in epoxy to the surface, this will lock in moisture build up under the floor (if that's what's happening) and within the plywood itself and COULD increase your problem...

I'd get some opinions/knowledge on what's under there first, then propose a "cure".


Wes

furevo
04-26-2005, 01:29 PM
What you are seeing is the floor separating from the stringer system, it has essentially de-laminated from the hull. The only real cure is to cut out the existing area that has separated and either lay more fiberglass and epoxy to create another floor or patch. You could also use plywood and seal it properly with fiberglass and epoxy. I would steer away from just filling the voids with foam or expoxy because you wouldn't have really fixed your problem.

I thought that may be what has happened.
What do you think if I drilled a line of holes in the floor section along the tops of the stringers, injected epoxy and screwed the floor to the stringers with counter sunk stainless steel screws, then glassed over?
I want to fix it, but I don't really want to tear the whole thing apart.

ski_king
04-26-2005, 01:32 PM
I was wondering if water made its way into that area and then froze over the winter, lifting the floor?
If there is water there, you may want to get it out..... but how?

sfitzgerald351
04-26-2005, 01:40 PM
Hmmmm.... Now I'm really curious. I've got two spots on my S&S that do the same thing. They are symmetric on either side of boat, located roughly in between the motor box and side of the boat, but located just to the rear of the motor box (hopefully that made sense). Where is your floor springy?

Since it was the same on both sides I've never really worried about it. I did discover that I had some water infiltrate the hull and main stringers through some unsealed screw holes. I did my best to drain one year and sealed up the holes and haven't seen any damage yet. That was 3 years ago and the boat sees 0 degree temps in the winter. Until the boat gets a complete restoration I figured I would just take care of it as best I can and keep it running well and looking sharp. Like you, I don't see the point of digging into the structure yet (especially since I don't have a garage).

martini
04-26-2005, 01:54 PM
This is a common occurance on these boats as mine did the exact same thing. Floor separated from stringers in or about that area. I had my entire floor cut out and replaced it with plywood and of course fiberglass and expoxy to seal it. If your going to go through the trouble of drilling multiple holes and expoxing, it would seriously be easier to cut out the problems areas and lay a new FLAT floor/patch down and bond it correctly to stringer system. All you need is some sort of cutting wheel/saw set at the correct depth and go at it. Measure your newly created hole and cut out new flooring material and bond away. At least that way you will know how wet it is under there, if at all, and you won't have to worry about it being done right.

Brn85ss
04-26-2005, 01:57 PM
I think every s&s i've ever looked at has a little bit of floor lift on the enclosed sides of the floor including mine.The floor on mine isn't springy yet but i'm sure in time it will be.I would bet some of the guys who bought their boats new and still have them don't have any floor problems.I'm just going to leave mine and enjoy the boat and worry about it some time in the future when it's ready for a complete tear down.

furevo
04-26-2005, 02:34 PM
Hmmmm.... Now I'm really curious. I've got two spots on my S&S that do the same thing. They are symmetric on either side of boat, located roughly in between the motor box and side of the boat, but located just to the rear of the motor box (hopefully that made sense). Where is your floor springy?

Since it was the same on both sides I've never really worried about it. I did discover that I had some water infiltrate the hull and main stringers through some unsealed screw holes. I did my best to drain one year and sealed up the holes and haven't seen any damage yet. That was 3 years ago and the boat sees 0 degree temps in the winter. Until the boat gets a complete restoration I figured I would just take care of it as best I can and keep it running well and looking sharp. Like you, I don't see the point of digging into the structure yet (especially since I don't have a garage).

That's one spot where it's springy, the other is on the sides perpendicular to the front of the motor box. This area looks like that's where the foam was injected. There are a couple of 1 1/2 inch (+/-) dia circles on the floor that are probably patched injector holes.

What did you do to drain the inside of the hull? I afraid there may be water trapped in between.

furevo
04-26-2005, 02:39 PM
I was wondering if water made its way into that area and then froze over the winter, lifting the floor?
If there is water there, you may want to get it out..... but how?
I don't think the boat was ever in an area that gets much freezing - pretty mild winters out here. I'm thinking the adhesive just plum broke down (delaminated). But I wonder if there is water inside. How do you get it out?

sfitzgerald351
04-26-2005, 02:45 PM
I simply enlarged the screw holes where the water went in (the brackets that hold the exhaust hose to the stingers) and then drilled a couple of more at the bottom of the stringer directly below. Then I let it drain for a few days and hit is with an electric fan/heater to attempt to evaporate the water out. Not much came out. Maybe a cup between both sides. I also put some air pressure on the top hole and that helped as well. Then I patched with Marine-Tex, which is apparently designed for small patches. On the bottom of the hull where water had seeped in from the holes used to mount the bilge pump I drilled a couple of 1/8" holes along the centerline from underneath and let drain for a few days, then raised the nose and let drain again, then lowered and let drain again. Then used some West System 5200 caulk and more Marine-Tex to patch up the holes. Probably not the best way to do it, but I haven't seen water seeping through and haven't had any cracking, etc... you'd expect from water freezing so I'm going to leave it...

dmgroh
04-27-2005, 01:17 PM
I'm new to this forum, so apologies if my protocol is not perfect. I have an '84 S&S with exactly the same problem...spongy deck on both sides of the motor and both sides of the stuffing box. I cut a 6"x6" inspection hole just behind the helm seat halfway between the outer hull and the motor mount. Foam was injected by the factory. It is now waterlogged.

10 years ago, I also drilled 3/8" holes at the lower edge of the side compartments in the bilge at the rear and also just under the dash. Small amounts of water drained out. I even had an overhead winch to raise the bow about 6' above the stern to accelerate the drainage. I also only retrieved about a cup of water. I let it air dry (So Calif during the Santa Ana's---for the rest of the world, extremely low humidity...probably like 10%) for over a week. Obviously, I did not really solve the problem. I long suspected I had water infiltration in the sealed portion of my bilge. Yesterday, I confirmed it.

I intend to open the entire deck starting from the helm seat rearward on both sides & tear out all that foam. Depending on what I find regarding structure and design will dictate the repair.

Question: Has anyone opened up their hull? From what little I can see so far, the foam is about 5" wide and runs fore/aft sandwiched by black plastic something or other that also runs fore/aft. What would really help is a cross-section of the hull just rearward of the pylon and again near the stuffing box. Can the factory help with pictures or advice?

BTW, the flooring is fiberglass, about 1/16" thick, probably epoxied to the main stringers holding the motor as well as epoxied to the outer hull. It appears to be merely glued to the black plastic fore/aft tubes(?) mentioned earlier in this post.

I would absolutely not drill holes in the floor and fill it with foam. You are not solving anything, and making the bubble in the floor permanent.

I have worked with fiberglass all my life and feel just as competent (probably more so) than any dealer. I will document, with photos, my findings, but would really like to know what it looks like under that deck before I cut out larger portions. email me at DMGroh@comcast.net or call me at 800-231-2338. I intend to keep this boat another 20-25 years, so I am only going to do this repair once.

tph
04-27-2005, 01:52 PM
I have worked with fiberglass all my life and feel just as competent (probably more so) than any dealer. I will document, with photos, my findings, but would really like to know what it looks like under that deck before I cut out larger portions. email me at DMGroh@comcast.net or call me at 800-231-2338. I intend to keep this boat another 20-25 years, so I am only going to do this repair once.

Does this help:

sfitzgerald351
04-27-2005, 04:07 PM
Wow... I'd love to see the pictures of the restoration, since it sounds like we all have the same problem.

Now my question is: does it really matter? So what if the foam is waterlogged a bit? It's a bit of extra weight to haul around, but I'm assuming the foam absorbs any expansion due to the water freezing and I don't have any cracks in the hull or anywhere else I can see. So do we really need to chase this 'probleml?

ski_king
04-27-2005, 04:32 PM
This thread almost make me glad I got the last year with wood stringers and floor. Mine is still solid.

sfitzgerald351
04-27-2005, 04:38 PM
But how do you know you don't have water in your foam... leading to wood rot? I'd be very worried about rot if I had wood stringers, but with fiberglass it seems that the water really doesn't matter. I recall that several folks on here have replaced the wood stringers on their boats. But I don't know that we've seen it on any with the fiberglass stringers. I'm interested in what people's opinions will be.

dmgroh
04-27-2005, 04:45 PM
TPH: Yes, it helped a lot. Any more diagrams?? The black plastic thing I described is actually fiberglass, about 1/16" or less, and it appears to serve the same function as the wavy paper found in the middle of corrugated cardboard.

TPH: guess it depends. Where is the water coming from? How much is the foam saturated? Did it freeze and separate the deck flooring from the (black fiberglass) stringers...don't know-doesn't seem like much of a structural support item, but just want to learn a lot more before the surgery.

For what it's worth, the foam only appears to be soaked on the top (not the bottom..??), and anyway, how does the water get into these apparently sealed areas; there are no bolt holes or cracks in the glass deck, so what gives?

furevo
04-27-2005, 07:46 PM
TPH: Yes, it helped a lot. Any more diagrams?? The black plastic thing I described is actually fiberglass, about 1/16" or less, and it appears to serve the same function as the wavy paper found in the middle of corrugated cardboard.

TPH: guess it depends. Where is the water coming from? How much is the foam saturated? Did it freeze and separate the deck flooring from the (black fiberglass) stringers...don't know-doesn't seem like much of a structural support item, but just want to learn a lot more before the surgery.

For what it's worth, the foam only appears to be soaked on the top (not the bottom..??), and anyway, how does the water get into these apparently sealed areas; there are no bolt holes or cracks in the glass deck, so what gives?
Here's the original cutaway I used to show my 'glue and screw' plan.
Looking forward to seeing your project. Thanks

erkoehler
04-27-2005, 07:49 PM
Those are great cutaway photos!

tph
04-27-2005, 11:00 PM
I have a picture of an actual boat cut in half. But, it doesn't provide any more info than the drawing above. I think the water probably enters the "closed" areas through the screw holes in the floor (seat bases, center panels etc.) and any place that screws are used on the stringers in the bilge (i.e hold downs, for the fuel line and wiring harness)

dmgroh
04-27-2005, 11:10 PM
Here's the first look at what's under the spongy floor. I'm attaching a photo, but if it's not here; my incompetence.

Martini-you're probably correct about taking up a large floor panel. The adhesive that holds it to the stringer ("black plastic thing" in my earlier post) is history, so the panel comes up easily.

Furevo-my exploratory surgery verifies that it is exactly like your diagram....got any more??

TPH-I think I may be using your system of epoxing the existing floor to the stringers and holding it down with stainless screws.

I dug out the foam from 2 of the valleys to see what was underneath. The foam in the valley furthest away from the motor seems like it has never seen water, but it is also expanded slightly above the stringer height which push up on the floor. Freezing water makes sense, this does not.

The 2 screwdrivers are aligned over the "ridge" portion of the stringer. Looking at Furevo's diagram, it is actually an upside down "W". Anyway, I drilled a couple of 3/8" holes into the top of each ridge spaced about 1 foot apart. Found ton of water in ridge nearest motor, but only 1 hole. Other hole in that same ridge, but 1 foot nearer the bow was bone dry??? Outside ridge was also dry.

Question for anybody. Is the discoloration of the foam an indication of water?

Don't have a firm guess on the source of the water, but am forming ideas for a fix. Remove large floor panels, remove wet foam where necessary, give expanded foam a haircut to bring it back down to height of stringer, and epoxy the oem floor back in place using ss screws.

I'm open to ideas, criticsm, whatever....just want to get it fixed right.

Oops...the file is too large. I'll post this and come back later if I can get the file fixed.

dmgroh
04-27-2005, 11:20 PM
Here's another attempt at the photo

tph
04-28-2005, 01:42 AM
The discoloration probably is from water. Are the discolored areas near the drivers seat base mounting holes? I thought the foam was "closed cell" and didn't absorb water.

wesgardner
04-28-2005, 08:46 AM
I assume water CANNOT get into these areas from the sides? The floor/deck must be bonded to the inside of the hull...correct?

Water's pretty tenacious stuff...it'll find a way maybe way up at the bow or way back at the stern where you can't see, but I think others have mentioned, isn't the foam closed cell?.

I think the repair using the original floor/deck is sound (as long as it's a good layup) and then bond everything to everything using epoxy, not polyester. You can get good deals on quantities of epoxy and coloidal silica, microballoons, microshperes, etc. at RAKA Marine (they have a web site) and all things 'glass.

dmgroh, I assume you've worked in epoxy before?

Good luck

Wes

dmgroh
04-28-2005, 10:09 AM
Wesgardner: yes. Thanks for the tip on the sources. Elaborate with address, phone, etc on your next post.

I also assumed that the foam was water proof/resistant. However, I can literally squeeze a piece of this old foam between my fingers and water will come out...just like a sponge. If you merely touch the surface lightly, your finger will come off dry. It holds water! So I don't see the need to go out and buy a ballast tank/bladder when M/C already gave us one! I wonder if they'll update their advertising?

wesgardner
04-28-2005, 11:14 AM
Hey All,

www.raka.com for epoxy...System 3 and of course WEST System should all be considered as well...when I built my last boat, I used raka for all my needs and they came thru without a hitch...good folks...

dmgroh - are you removing and replacing the foam? I hear you on the "built in" ballast...

Wes

furevo
04-28-2005, 01:01 PM
dmgroh -
Thanks for the photo - keep us posted on the progress.
- sorry, but I don't have anymore factory diagrams. I copied that one from another post on this site.
I think I'm in the same boat as you (no pun intended), I'm just not sure that I have the skill or time to remove the floor and replace the foam. And then how would you remove the foam from the areas under the 'WW' shaped stringers?
I'd be interested in any ideas you come up with.
Thanks, tom

sfitzgerald351
04-28-2005, 01:02 PM
Very interesting. Thanks for the photo. Take some more as you do the work.

As for me... since you've got the same problem, but my floor seems to be in much better condition then what you described I'm not going to rush to pull up my floor. I know I have water in the foam in places, but since it doesn't seem to hurt anything I'm not going to worry about it unless someone convinces me otherwise.

dmgroh
04-28-2005, 01:14 PM
Here's more pics. Using Furevo's diagram, I will describe as follows; there are 3 "valleys" running fore/aft along with 2 "ridges". Looking at the photos, it appears that the foam was injected from the top during manufacture. For those who don't want to lift the floor, those injection holes are in each ridge (I'll give exact dimensions in a later post) and vary from 2" to 4" in diameter. It looks like their positioning was kinda sloppy in that they are not uniform in size or placement.

Using the pylon bracket as a reference, the forward set of holes are 24 to 26" back from the centerline of the pylon. The aft holes are 64-66" back. This now explains why we have symetrical bubbles in the floor on both sides. I then did probes looking for moisture. Again using the pylon, I probed each valley and ridge (drilled holes) at 1 foot intervals.

The water is very apparent all these injection sites and concentrated toward the center or toward the keel; the outer valley was dry. In 24 hours, after digging out that small section (see first photo), water is pooling...maybe 2-3 ounces.

Look at the underside of the floor panels. I am guessing that the floor thickness is maybe 1/16" and appears adequate, assuming it is supported by that somewhat rigid foam. However, in the floor panels where the injection holes are, the floor is VERY thin...seems like only 1 or 2 layers of glass. Also, looking at the foam in the valleys, it was not cutoff even with the top of the stringers. I am thinking that they laid in the stringers, using adhesive to the hull and then glued the floor to the top of the stringers. My oem adhesive is cracking and crumbling, but still need some effort to clean the top (ridge) of the stringer. After gluing the floor, they drilled large holes to then fill the voids.

I'm telling you all this because if you try to screw the floor down to the stringers directly over those injection holes, you will be screwing into foam.

I still don't know how the water got in there, but the concentration around those injection holes and absence everywhere else (have not looked in the bow area...more than I can handle right now!) are pretty strong markers.....but for what?

Photo problems again, will post soon.

dmgroh
04-28-2005, 01:15 PM
Here's the photo's-can't help if they are not right side up.

dmgroh
04-28-2005, 01:20 PM
I'm going to post just one of the photos and see how it looks. The white area on the underside is the adhesive used by the factory.

dmgroh
04-28-2005, 01:21 PM
Ok, now I see how this computer stuff works. Here's the other photo.

sfitzgerald351
04-28-2005, 01:29 PM
Neat. I'm saving these photos for future reference..,

dmgroh
04-28-2005, 01:30 PM
Now, to help the guys that don't want to lift the floor. Does anybody know a method for drying out the foam, perhaps using some sort of probe? Based on my boat, the water is not everywhere, and I suppose small holes could be drilled to locate the concentrations. Any ideas for removing the water thru a small hole? I thought of a vacuum pump; similar to the method for evacuating an air conditioning system--the hull and stringers seem strong enough to withstand the force, but again, HOW is the water getting into those areas?

Also, I purposely looked under the holes drilled in the floor for the helm seat, as well as the support on the passenger (port side) side. There was no water...absolutely dry where you would expect a leak to be!

C'mon guys, don't be bashful. Even if you think it might be kooky, put up a considered opinion. I sure haven't figured it out!

tph
04-28-2005, 02:23 PM
C'mon guys, don't be bashful. Even if you think it might be kooky, put up a considered opinion. I sure haven't figured it out!

The swim platform bracket holes are below the floor level under the waterline. Is the concentration of water greater near the stern?

wesgardner
04-28-2005, 02:46 PM
Hey All,

Don't know how helpful this is but....Cleats leak, windshields leak, handrails leak, attachment of the rear seat leaks, if the “tabbing” (that’s where they join the floor/deck to the inside of the hull) is not continuous, water will get behind that, my dashboard,windshield,glove compartment is a unit that’s screwed to the floor/deck – that’ll leak…has the boat ever been partially submerged, perhaps water from the bilge spaces has “jumped” over into the supposed “sealed” compartments….one thing I’ve learned over several years and several thousand open ocean miles in boats from 6 to 60 feet is – fiberglass boats leak….

Wes

sfitzgerald351
04-28-2005, 04:14 PM
The swim platform bracket holes are below the floor level under the waterline. Is the concentration of water greater near the stern?

Hmmm. I had some pretty big leaks through the bracket holes when I bought my boat. But I seem to recall being able to get a box wrench onto the nuts under the gas tank to tighten the brackets, which makes me think that the brackets are not screwed into the floor area that has the stringers. Mine leaked BIG time so it's definitely something to double check though.

dmgroh
04-28-2005, 06:56 PM
That all makes sense, but my foam at the rear, under the seat, up against the motor mounts is dry. The four areas of concentration are those injection holes. Rest of the boat is (surprisingly) dry.

The good news is that that whole damn boat is not soaked like I initially feared. The parts that are (my boat, at least) are really not that bad. Just can't make sense of why the water is there and not where it is supposed to be. My current estimation is that there may be 2-3 gallons at most, possibly as little as 1 gallon. I have removed a couple of 1-foot foam sections from the valley and 1 from the ridge (enlarge the injection hole) all the way down to the hull bottom. All were heavy with water. I'm going to leave them open to see how much water seeps into those cavities.

Again, for those who have not opened the floor, you probably don't have to if you can live with a little water in there. Fixing the bubble in the floor may work as TPH describes in his earlier post.

I'm now debating whether to (1) dry it out, refoam and reseal, or (2) put in some simple drain system, then reseal.

Also, the five vertical bolts that hold the angle-iron to the engine stringers are bolts (not lag bolts), and are threaded into another piece of angle-iron underneath (no nuts) exactly like the diagram.

Here's a pic of my boat on a dive trip off Catalina....and to think this all started with simply putting in new carpet.

sfitzgerald351
04-28-2005, 08:01 PM
You took your old MC to Catalina?!!! Wow... you've got some balls. Our older machines don't handle the chop so well. How was your arse after that trip?

JEREMY79
04-28-2005, 08:08 PM
balls, dude, balls

furevo
04-28-2005, 08:33 PM
Wow - I'm impressed - Catalina? I ***** about white caps on the lake & you're out there in ocean swells -

I'm closely watching your project & look forward to more updates - my original 'band-aid' plan is looking better and better.

Is the crossmember attached the same way as the engine stringers (machined bolts vs. lags)? - I've gotta pull the crossmember and there's ruuuussst.

dmgroh
04-29-2005, 10:56 AM
Thanks for the compliment on Catalina, but if you've been off the coast of So. Calif, it's really pretty calm. It's typical to see rowboats fishing a mile or so off the mouth of the harbor. Now, trying to run Barnegat Inlet in New Jersey....not a chance! Anyway, you can't really run faster than maybe 15mph (and it keeps the bow high)...it's impossible/stupid to go fast with these boats in any kind of choppy seas...light or otherwise.

Martini - When you opened your floor, did you find any water, if so, where? and how much? I believe you indicated replacing the original fiberglass floor with plywood. How is it holding up. BTW, it took all of 20 minutes to make the cuts and pull up those 2 large sections, and twice that time to suit up (jump suit & respirator) and clean off. 3 days later and I am still itching from the fiberglass.

My boat is continuining to drain, some areas are only showing a trace of water, but 1 area - injection hole behind driver seat - is producing the most. I have taken about a quart out so far. I am testing the water to see if it is salt, lake or rainwater. My boat has not seen saltwater in 7-8 years, so maybe the test can narrow down the potential source. I will let it drain for perhaps a week and use the time to dream up a solution if any.

dmgroh
04-29-2005, 11:07 AM
Forgot your original question. The crossmember (pylon support, I assume) on my boat appears to be galvanized and is held in by lag screws, but I only pulled 1 out to look. From the way it is designed, all the load is transmitted to the hull by the indentation in the stringer, not the bolts themselves. I will probably pull those lags out, inject some form of sealer in the holes, then re-install.

I'm also thinking about pulling out the bolts that hold the angle-iron motor mount to the stringer, coating with anti-seize and re-installing while I have access. My motor mounts are rusted pretty bad, and if I have to pull this motor in the future, it may entail pulling the motor and everything it's attached to.

Has anyone replaced their motor mounts yet? Where would you get them?

tph
04-29-2005, 11:22 AM
Hmmm. I had some pretty big leaks through the bracket holes when I bought my boat. But I seem to recall being able to get a box wrench onto the nuts under the gas tank to tighten the brackets, which makes me think that the brackets are not screwed into the floor area that has the stringers. Mine leaked BIG time so it's definitely something to double check though.

The floor level meets the transom directly on an '83. There is no "back side" access to the platform bracket mounting area from inside the boat. That's why MC used lag bolts. Is there a drop off to hull level on the '84? If not, how did you gain access to nuts on the inside of the transom.

martini
04-29-2005, 11:31 AM
Similar water infiltration, mostly in the back and behind the driver's seat. The previous owner beat the hell out of this boat. The plywood is glassed to the stringers, all the original foam was removed and new foam laid in(not injected in, the foam was poured in to cure and then when it expanded trimed to the right level). Plywood laid on top of the stringers and glassed in. It is rock solid. I have tried to eliminate all water infilitration by expoxing threaded studs(actually just a threaded bolt turned upside down) where screws would have been. When I put the engine cradle back in I injected 3M 5200 I believe(the more permenant silicon) into the screw holes and bolted it down. I did the same with the bilge pump. I have a picture of this somewhere. So, in essence, there are no screw holes anywhere in my hull and as far as I can tell no more water infilitration. I did this for 2 reasons, water infiltration and I knew that I would be removing/replacing these panels, lines, etc. alot. Both front and rear floor panels have attaching points like this, the driver and passenger seat bases are like this now, foot rest and gas tank as well.

I filled all the screw holes in the bilge with expoxy and no lines are secured in the bilge to the hull. They are routed and zip tied off in such a way that allows it not to require being fastened to the side.

If you are constantly messing around with screws, the holes they mount in get bigger, thus making you get a bigger screw and making the hole even larger. You know it is rediculous that boat manufacturers secure interior structures and systems like this, they take a completely watertight vessel and drill millions of holes in it to mount things.

Probably more than what you wanted to know.

sfitzgerald351
04-29-2005, 05:15 PM
The floor level meets the transom directly on an '83. There is no "back side" access to the platform bracket mounting area from inside the boat. That's why MC used lag bolts. Is there a drop off to hull level on the '84? If not, how did you gain access to nuts on the inside of the transom.

I'm really trying to recall what we did. I recall swamping the back of my boat at the ramp (it's so steep the bilge vent at the rear can go underwater if I don't get up the trailer in the first shot!) and had about 30 gallons of water in it that I watched drain out from the bolts on the brackets. And I recall trying to squeeze my hand back behind the gas tank to get at the nuts. Maybe it was just the center support? Though I think I do have access to the back of the brackets since I thought about putting some reinforecment on the transom there since it seems a little soft. I'd go look, but my boat is still wrapped up.

martini
04-29-2005, 05:22 PM
The holes are not accessible from the inside the boat on an 84 either. The only brackets you have access to, if you removed the tank, are the lifting eyes. Nothing else. The platform is lagged and bolted similar to the engine cradle. No inside access, unless you cut the floor out.

sfitzgerald351
04-29-2005, 09:20 PM
Ahhhh.... now I remember. I also had to tighten the eyes. That must have been what I was trying to get at. Still, a ton of water came out of them.

furevo
05-03-2005, 05:37 PM
dmgroh -

how's the project coming?

dmgroh
05-03-2005, 09:26 PM
Getting there...not as fast as I used to be. I expect to close it up this weekend. The water test came back salt. Good news in that it is probably not a continuing problem. Back in Calif, the boat was docked in a saltwater slip all the time. Makes me wonder if it partially submerged at one point and somebody "forgot" to tell me. I'll take some more photos and provide measurements of those stringers when I'm done so the other guys can fasten down the floor without lifting it first.

furevo
05-03-2005, 11:26 PM
Getting there...not as fast as I used to be. I expect to close it up this weekend. The water test came back salt. Good news in that it is probably not a continuing problem. Back in Calif, the boat was docked in a saltwater slip all the time. Makes me wonder if it partially submerged at one point and somebody "forgot" to tell me. I'll take some more photos and provide measurements of those stringers when I'm done so the other guys can fasten down the floor without lifting it first.
That would be great - thank you!!

wesgardner
05-04-2005, 09:15 AM
Hey All,

Athough my boat's somewhat different, this spring I refastened the four brackets for my swim platform. The screws had been left to go astray prolly thru wear and overtightening - anyway this is what I did - remove brackets, cleaned mating surfaces with acetone, redrilled the screw holes out much larger, cleaned the holes and then filled them with thickened epoxy - let set up for a couple of days, redrilled to the correct size, used 5200 (it's urethane adhesive/caulk) to bed the brackets and refastened - they will not be coming off or moving for a very long time....

I know I couldn't get to the back side of the outboard ones but maybe the inner two were accessable form under the fuel tank - since MC didn't originally use bolts, I assumed the fill-with-epoxy method is as strong (usually stronger) than the original. (I have great faith in epoxy as I've built several hulls with NO fasteners at all) - well maybe one or two until the epoxy set...my swim platform is also held on by extensions of the handrails - I think somewhat "unique" to that vintage Maristar...


Wes

wesgardner
05-04-2005, 09:18 AM
Here's a stern shot...the brackets are inverted alu. channel so you really can't see much, but there are four evenly spaced across the stern...


Wes

furevo
05-04-2005, 12:53 PM
very unique - nice design - blends in well

dmgroh
05-06-2005, 01:32 PM
Here's a summary of what I've learned and what I would do differently.

Look at this "stringer" photo, as well as the previous photos, and the diagram that TPH & Fuevo furnished. I believe that the factory glued in the premade stringer (upside W), and then glued the premade floor to the top of the stringer. The adhesive is brittle now, but is similar to typical flooring glue (they used a notched trowel to apply).

Here's where it gets ugly. After the floor is down, they go back and drill five 3" holes on each side (2 locations per side) thru the floor (2 go thru the stringers as well). Picture the grill ornament of an Audi. They inject the foam into these holes, and then patch these holes with some glass cloth after topping off the hole with the adhesive. The thickness of the patch is paper thin compared to the floor, which looks like (to give you a reference) the same thickness as the passenger seat base.

Not only is the patch thin, but it lays on top of the glob of filled-in glue which has foam for support, not the stringers. Now you can see why that part of the floor is spongy. One my patches was actually delaminating from the floor.

I think that you could lift the carpet and just using a finger, determine where your floor has problem areas. Possible methods for correcting would be cutting out just the patch area and rebuilding it to a proper thickness. You could also just drill holes about 2-3" apart and inject foam, then cover.

While you are cutting/drilling, I would test probe for moisture, possibly digging out a section down to the hull and see if water accumulates. I was relieved to only remove about 1 gallon total. Based on what you find, make a decision as to whether to dig further. In addition, I would also make an exhaustive effort to seal up all holes in the hull/bilge as someone previously detailed.

To help with locating the stringers as well as the pretty obvious injection sites, here's a photo. The wood shows where the part of the upside W touches the floor, and the steel shows the location and arrangement of the injection holes.

Measurements(inches): Use the center line of the pylon pole for the front, and the prop shaft for the rear. Each stringer has about a 3" width where it contacts the floor.

C/line of the starboard stringers are (Front)18.5 and 26.0; Rear 19.5 and 26.5.

C/line of the port stringers are (F) 20.5 and 27.5; (R) 20 and 27.

You might note that the pylon is not centered in the boat.

Pylon: (Warning-this may offend some of you fanatics) Someone queried about replacing the pylon. About 10 years ago, I bought a 10' length of 2" galvanized fence post (3/16" thick or better) to use for the trailer guides. I had a small section left over and starting putzing with it. Yes, that's an old trailer ball, held in with epoxy (2 logs of putty, use equal parts white & black...). To fit the boat, I used a small piece of electrical conduit that fits over the post.

I was amazed at the strength of this. I am 200# and slalom, digging in hard. If someone gave me a factory pylon, I'm not sure I would walk across the street for it.

dmgroh
05-06-2005, 01:33 PM
Here's the pylon

MarkP
05-14-2005, 11:18 PM
Here's the pylon
Very innovative. Now um goin to have to ask for an interior shot of the completed project :headbang:

furevo
05-23-2005, 12:55 PM
That's great - thanks for the measurements - I just got my pylon repaired and a new aluminum crossmember was manufactured. Now I'm going to secure the floor and recarpet.