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View Full Version : $500 tow and no spark - LTR 330hp Quick Help!


dummy
08-01-2008, 03:00 AM
I could really use a solid from Jim N or somebody out there who really knows these boats. Been having some starting troubles with my '00 LTR 330hp Maristar. Last 2 times out engine would crank but not fire. Would only do it intermittently and not enough to really trouble me. I attributed it to low battery from tuing the stereo and my kids raising/lowering the engine cover a hundred times in the driveway.

This was day 1 of our family vacation here at Havasu. Today on the lake we shut it down after at least a solid hour of problem-free running and it wouldn't start. Had 3 hours to play with it while we waited for Sea Tow and had some tools along, so was able to rule out a few things. For starters, it's got fuel. Pump primes and pressureized fuel shoots out the schraeder valve. Don't know the exact pressure because my fuel gauge's rubber O-ring is at the bottom of the lake. :rolleyes: Tried jumping the battery - first with a PWC and then with the tow boat. Nada.

Battery is at 12.4-12.6v normal and between 10.4-11.5v cranking on my multi-meter. Before the no start the Volt gauge was right at/around 14v. Connections/grounds on alternator and back of engine are good and solid w/ no cracked terminals or pulled wires. All sensor connections on CPS, computer, etc are on and tight. The CPS sensors are as close to the reluctor as they can get and the plugs obviously are in the right sensors because it's been running.

Pulled the plugs and they're okay. Bypassed the kill switch and same deal - cranks good and strong but no start. Pulled a spark plug and grounded it to the engine and no spark (I had the cover open for about 2 hours by now but it still freaked me out a bit trying this). There's a 50A circuit breaker on the MEFI 3 computer bracket, but otherwise I can't find any fuses on the engine anywhere. There's also a 10-prong connector on the back of the engine that wasn't connected - hasn't been since I bought the boat a few months ago. The connector half on the port side has only 2 wires in it and the connector half from the other side has about 6 wires in it (mostly orange), black, maybe white/black). No idea what this plug does or why it's disconnected.

What's my next step? CPS sensors? Coils? Is there a way to pull codes on this system? Stick a road flare in the bilge and walk away? (just kidding). I'd appreciate and could really use some more info on this while I'm out here. I'd like to get on my wakeboard!

Chief
08-01-2008, 06:46 AM
I could really use a solid from Jim N or somebody out there who really knows these boats. Been having some starting troubles with my '00 LTR 330hp Maristar. Last 2 times out engine would crank but not fire. Would only do it intermittently and not enough to really trouble me. I attributed it to low battery from tuing the stereo and my kids raising/lowering the engine cover a hundred times in the driveway.

This was day 1 of our family vacation here at Havasu. Today on the lake we shut it down after at least a solid hour of problem-free running and it wouldn't start. Had 3 hours to play with it while we waited for Sea Tow and had some tools along, so was able to rule out a few things. For starters, it's got fuel. Pump primes and pressureized fuel shoots out the schraeder valve. Don't know the exact pressure because my fuel gauge's rubber O-ring is at the bottom of the lake. :rolleyes: Tried jumping the battery - first with a PWC and then with the tow boat. Nada.

Battery is at 12.4-12.6v normal and between 10.4-11.5v cranking on my multi-meter. Before the no start the Volt gauge was right at/around 14v. Connections/grounds on alternator and back of engine are good and solid w/ no cracked terminals or pulled wires. All sensor connections on CPS, computer, etc are on and tight. The CPS sensors are as close to the reluctor as they can get and the plugs obviously are in the right sensors because it's been running.

Pulled the plugs and they're okay. Bypassed the kill switch and same deal - cranks good and strong but no start. Pulled a spark plug and grounded it to the engine and no spark (I had the cover open for about 2 hours by now but it still freaked me out a bit trying this). There's a 50A circuit breaker on the MEFI 3 computer bracket, but otherwise I can't find any fuses on the engine anywhere. There's also a 10-prong connector on the back of the engine that wasn't connected - hasn't been since I bought the boat a few months ago. The connector half on the port side has only 2 wires in it and the connector half from the other side has about 6 wires in it (mostly orange), black, maybe white/black). No idea what this plug does or why it's disconnected.

What's my next step? CPS sensors? Coils? Is there a way to pull codes on this system? Stick a road flare in the bilge and walk away? (just kidding). I'd appreciate and could really use some more info on this while I'm out here. I'd like to get on my wakeboard!

It would be hard to believe that all eight coil packs went bad at once, now a cam shaft positon and crank shaft positon sensor will kill the whole engine. Also if the brain for the coils has went bad that could do it also. Check the sensors around the crank shaft, see if they are rusted.

Also how was the oil pressure? The LTR has a brass oil pump gear that can wear out and cause problems. It's on the end of the shaft were the distributor would normally be.
Your best bet to get back on the water may be to find a dealer.

dummy
08-01-2008, 12:21 PM
Thanks much for the schematic. I guess I'm finding a dealer in town who can look at it. Not much else I can do.

I did pull the idler gear shaft out this morning to check the oil pump drive gear 'cause my pressure seemed to bouce around (I think it's the sending unit or the gauge). The gear on the shaft is steel - not bronze or melonized. I'm hoping my camshaft is one of the ones with the iron dist. drive gear pressed on it. Seems to be some tooth wear. I'll worry about that once I get the thing running.

Sodar
08-01-2008, 12:37 PM
Try out Absolute or Savage Marine. They should have I computer to hook up and read the codes.

If not, MC of Arizona is about 2 hours away in Phoenix. Call them ahead of time, as they are normally VERY backed up.

Good Luck!

JimN
08-01-2008, 12:46 PM
If you have a meter, set it to DC Volts and look on the IC module under the coil packs for a purple/white wire. When you crank, you should see 1-2V.

Did your tach move when you cranked?

dummy
08-01-2008, 01:34 PM
Honestly, didn't notice if tach moved. I already pulled the crank position sensors. Tips are a tad rusty. I was gonna try to find some replacements, but I'll clean them off and stick 'em back in to check the tach and the voltage on that purple/white coil pack wire.

Thanks for the tips, guys. Really appreciate it. If it's a no go I guess we'll just hop on our friend's boat and I'll deal with it when I get home.

Sodar
08-01-2008, 01:36 PM
Where were you that the tow cost $500?

JimN
08-01-2008, 01:45 PM
If you mean that the surface closest to the crank was a bit rusty, that should matter unless it's really bad. Now, you need to get the spec for the correct distance from them to the crank.

Don't just assume it's one thing without testing something. They could look like crapo and still work fine.

Also, you need to make sure the sensors are in the correct position. If they're reversed, it won't fire, either, because the sequence of the square wave will indicate that it's cranking backward.

dummy
08-02-2008, 03:42 AM
Sodar - Thanks for the tips. I may try Absolute. Was out about a mile up river from Cattail. Exaggerated a bit - tow was $395 and I bought the $119 membership to Sea Tow just in case. Insurance only covers $600, so one more tow like that and I'm out of juice.

Jim N- Sensore were just slightly rusty. I cleaned 'em and put them back in. No real way I can see to change the sensor spacing off the reluctor since they mount down into the bracket. Unless you can add spacers under the CPS sensors. But since it ran so well before I don't know if it needs that. Also know the sensor wiring is correct since it was running right before it died.

Put a multi meter on the purple/white wire you mention and had my buddy crank. Only read .1 volt while my buddy cranked the engine over. Made sure it was set to the right scale by measuring battery voltage (12.4v). I did test it with the sensor unplugged. Didn't really want to pierce the purple/white wire with the meter probe. Should I have tested it with the connector hooked up? Oh, and the tach needle isn't moving when the engine is cranking.

JimN
08-02-2008, 01:11 PM
12.4V is low. Crank it and see what it drops to. Make sure the battery terminals are clean and tight. At rest, it should have been in the 13.3V-13.6V range.

The purple/white wire needs to be tested with the CPS connected. They're what supply the signal to the IC module to tell it that it's cranking. If the PCS isn't connected, the tach can't move, either. Watch that when the plugs are inserted.

To test the purple/white with the plug in place, use a stick pin, inserted between the light green silicone rubber seal and the wire, feeling for metal (the terminal inside). Ground the black lead and put the red probe on the pin while it cranks.

dummy
08-03-2008, 02:15 AM
Thanks much for taking the time to post suggestions, Jim. Tested voltage on the purple/white wire with it connected and it's 4.8v time after time. Triple checked my stick pin placement and it's definitely on the correct wire with the pin inserted just as you suggest.

Battery and cables are new heavy gauge, so that's all new. I did check connection tightness when I was dead in the water. Battery voltage is low at rest because of repeated cranking attempts. Voltage drops to about 11.1-11.6 while cranking. I tried jumping it with the Sea Tow boat and left the meter hooked up to check cranking voltage. Was around mid-high 11s or thereabouts. I picked up a Perko dual battery switch today at West Marine. Adding dual batteries has been on my list of things to do just for peace of mind, but I'm doubtful this is a battery problem since it didn't start when jumped. Would love to be wrong, though. A $200 battery sounds a lot better than some of the alternatives.

dummy
08-04-2008, 03:57 PM
Welp, back home. Pulled a brand new Optima Blue Top out of one of my Jeeps and stuck it in the boat. Does the same thing - cranks over like a champ but no spark, no fire. Checked fuel again - plenty. Checked all connections on the ignition switch and they're good. Checked all the grounds on the engine and under the dash - good. Found and checked all the fuses and circuit breakers - good. Bypassed the kill switch one more time for good measure and hit it with the multi-meter to check voltage - good.

At this point I'm just killing time until the service department of California Skier or On The Edge Watersports opens up down here in San Diego area. Both are closed until Tues.

Here's the connector I found on the back of the engine block that was unplugged. Half of it was stuffed under the MEFI 3 bracket down by the tranny and the other half was hanging on the side above the starter. Anybody know what it's for? It's been disconnected since I bought the boat and I've had a couple trouble-free trips without it hooked up. Just wondering what it does.

chico
08-04-2008, 07:23 PM
thats your data link connector ,you plug the scanner into it.

JimN
08-04-2008, 10:38 PM
As chico said, it's the data link connector.

Does your check engine light work? It should go on when you turn the key ON. When was the boat worked on last? What did they do? Call and ask them if you don't know if they would have needed to access data or check codes.

Bend a paper clip into a sharp U shape and insert it into the A and B terminals on the connector that has the female terminals. Turn the key to ON and watch the check engine light flash. It should flash once, short pause, then twice with a longer pause. This stands for 12 and this should be repeated three times before showing any codes. If it only flashes 12 with no other numbers, it has no stored codes. If it flashes anything else, write the numbers down. It can flash 14, 15, 21, 22, 33. 34, 51, 42, 43, 44, 51 or 52. Once it indicates any codes, it will flash 12 three more times.

dummy
08-04-2008, 11:02 PM
will check codes tonight when home. Bought the boat from up in San Fran. Boat had 100 hour service done at 100hrs, then the guy I bought it from had another 100hr service done after he bought it with 120 hrs or so. I got it with 136hrs and it has 149 on it now.

Check engine light comes on with key and alarm sounds before starting.

I take it the boat is normally run with the diagnostic terminals connected? Thanks for the help guys. Still hoping to avoid a spendy service visit if possible.

JimN
08-04-2008, 11:06 PM
Do the paper clip code read and report back here.

Plymouth Family Guy
08-04-2008, 11:12 PM
Dummy,

First let me say that I am no mechanic, nor am I very technical. I'm an accountant - I'm great with numbers and finance!

Anyway, something similar happened to my 2002 Maristar 210 with the 330 HP engine last summer. The boat would run great. Then all of sudden it wouldn't start. Sometimes when you waited a few minutes bobbing in the water you could crank it again and it would start right up. Sometimes it would take longer before it would finally start up.

I took it to the dealer to diagnose. After running the engine for a long time they were finally able to recreate my problem. A bad electrical harness connector caused the fuel pump to shut off. The mechanic figured that maybe the connector heated up during use, shorted out and then would either cool off or get giggled and get re-connected. Attached is a picture of the old harness. The mechanic spliced in a new one and the boat has been running great ever since. I kept the old connector as a memento of my frustation and lost time on the lake.

Like I said earlier, I'm no mechanic so the problem I had last summer could be nothing close to what you are experiencing now, but I thought I would throw out my two cents. Good luck in your diagnosis.

dummy
08-05-2008, 02:02 AM
Well, damn. Had high hopes a code would pop up and give me an answer but it just flashed 12 repeatedly. I gave up counting at around the 70th "12". Shows you how stubborn I can be.

Gotta head up to the office tomorrow, but I'll try to pull apart every electrical connector in the stinkin' boat and lube 'em with some dielectric grease just for good measure before I head out. Man, I really don't want it to be a $800-$1000 computer, but I'm thinking that may be the culprit. I'll keep posting what I dig up as I get to it.

Chief
08-05-2008, 07:20 AM
Well, damn. Had high hopes a code would pop up and give me an answer but it just flashed 12 repeatedly. I gave up counting at around the 70th "12". Shows you how stubborn I can be.

Gotta head up to the office tomorrow, but I'll try to pull apart every electrical connector in the stinkin' boat and lube 'em with some dielectric grease just for good measure before I head out. Man, I really don't want it to be a $800-$1000 computer, but I'm thinking that may be the culprit. I'll keep posting what I dig up as I get to it.

ECM on my old LTR went bad, but it was making the engine run in a "maintenance mode" so it had to be replaced. Checking the connectors may be a good idea since I remember the harness on mine had no slack in it and it would be easy for a hard jolt to pull the harness and maybe cause a pin to lose contact.

You have some patience bro.

dummy
08-05-2008, 01:11 PM
You have some patience bro.

Nah, just too dumb to know better!

Removed all the electrical connectors, put some dielectric grease in the female bores, and wiggled each terminal to make sure the wiring felt solid. Did fuel first, then ECU, then engine sensors, and finally CPS sensors. Tried to start the engine in between each group so I'd know which one was the culprit if it started. Still no start - just cranking.

Swapped the CPS connector wires just for good measure and tried again - nothing. Put 'em back the way they were - nothing. Connected diagnostic connector - nothing. Disconnected diagnostic connector - nothing. Tried to read codes again - flashes 12 repeatedly until hell freezes over. (by nothing I mean it just cranks over the way it's been doing)

I guess I've gotta take it in so they can hook a scanner up to the diagnostic port and see what's doing. Hopefully they can squeeze me in before the end of the season!

I'll report back with any findings.

By the way, any ideas on why the purple/white wire going to the ignition coils is getting 4.8v instead of the 1-2v it's supposed to have? That tell anybody anything. I mean, other than my electrical system is fubar?

Thanks again for all the suggestions. Hope this isn't boring anybody.

dummy
08-05-2008, 09:58 PM
Boat can't be seen by either local dealer until Saturday, but I'll be away on a business trip, so it's gonna be end of next week. Crap.

Spoke with Bruce at On The Ede Watersports in El Cajon, CA and he suggested double checking the CPS wiring connectors, so I'll do that sometime tomorrow. Says 50% of the no-spark LTR problems he sees are because of that shorter bottom wire getting pulled and the connection failing. Guess I'll open up each and every weatherpack connector I can get to and will check the connections and make sure there are no wires grounding or pulled out. Also gonna yank the ECM and check for damaged pins.

dummy
08-06-2008, 09:02 PM
Pulled the CPS weatherpack connectors apart and the crimped wire connectors were nice and tight. No cracks. Put 'em back on, tried to start, swapped 'em, tried to start, swapped 'em back. Just cranking.

Pulled the ECM connections off and opened them up. Didn't pull the connectors from the harness 'cause I didn't want to mess them up, but they all appeared okay from the outside. Pulled the ECM and the pins are clean and undamaged. This is written on the back. My boat is an '00, but I'm sure the factory was using up whatever was on the shelf.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd176/chinhazel/IMG_1377.jpg

I remember reading a post on checking voltage at the CPS sensors, so I'll go find that again and will check out my sensor voltage. Still, the voltage at the purple/white wire going to the coil packs is 4.8v instead of the 1-2v Jim N says it should be, so who knows what's going on.

Gonna be another week before the boat is seen. Just gonna keep tinkering with it until then.

JimN
08-07-2008, 01:19 AM
I'll look in the manual, or EngineNut should know this. The 1-2V will definitely be the right voltage but I will verify the LTR's correct reading.

dummy
08-07-2008, 01:26 AM
Thanks, Jim. You're a helluva help.

Ric
08-07-2008, 02:22 PM
so where is the project now?

dummy
08-07-2008, 04:34 PM
Physically, it's sitting in my driveway. Diagnostically, who knows? The nanny has today off, so until my wife gets home this afternoon I can't get out there to check it out.

Gonna check the CPS sensors. According to one of Engine Nut's old posts they should "have an output of .8 to 1.4 volts each" at cranking speed.

I'm also gonna double check the fuel pressure at the rail. I only got a moment to check it out on the lake. My fitting that connects the pressure gauge to the rubber hose got damaged in the tool bag and before I could get a pressure reading it started pissing fuel all over the engine compartment. I took it off to tighten it up, but while holding it over the side of the boat to keep the fuel drips from getting on the carpet the rubber O-ring and Schraeder valve depresser fell out and sank. I've been going on the assumption the pump is good since it kicks on with the key and since there seems to be plenty of pressure when the Schraeder valve on the fuel rail is depressed.

At this point any possibility is better than a new ECU, so I'll try everything before the boat goes to the dealer next week.

Ric
08-07-2008, 05:47 PM
I doubt it's fuel related. I mean I think you said that all along has been no spark.

dummy
08-08-2008, 07:51 PM
Well, bummer. Nabbed a new fuel pressure gauge and the pressure shoots straight to 40-42psi with key on and maintains that pressure while cranking.

That leaves ECM, coil packs, or CPS sensors. Was hoping putting my '67 Falcon in the Avitar would gimme a little of JimN's mojo and that sucker would fire right up. Guess I'm gonna go pull that voodoo doll out of the closet and try to find a live chicken to sacrifice instead. :-)

dummy
09-02-2008, 08:13 PM
Little update: Dropped it off at my dealer about 3 weeks ago. They're swamped, so it was a week before they could see it. Had to drop by 2 weeks ago to grab the kids' life vests out of it for Havasu and they said their tech spent a day diagnosing and couldn't figure anything out, so they "put in a call to Mastercraft."

Left it at that until today. Called and they're still messing around with it, not able to figure anything out. No clues as to what's wrong yet.

Now, couple questions because I'm a new boat owner and all:

First, is this normal? I realize it's peak season and all, but I would've thought they could've figured something out by now.
Second: Please tell me I'm not paying $100/hr while they doink around trying stuff I've already ruled out. They told me not to worry, but they never actually said they charge by the problem and not by the hours worked.

Note - I'm not complaining about my dealer, although I know I make it sound that way. They're super-nice on the phone and are keeping the boat indoors. I'm not even in that much of a rush to get it back since I can always hop on my buddy's boat. I think I'm just impatient to know what's wrong.

JimN
09-02-2008, 09:17 PM
If I had a boat sitting for two weeks at my place, I would have sent the ECM to Indmar to have it checked out. But, that's just me.

I don't think MC pays much more than a couple of hours for any electrical troubleshooting and to be honest, it should be about that much time, even if the harness needs to be checked for opens/shorts.

You don't have spark, right? There aren't that many possible causes for this and they're all on the motor.

Did they say what was looked at, so far?

I just remembered something- the 2000 V Drive was the first year they placed the ECM at the top of the motor where a gap in the sun deck could allow water to drip/splash onto it. The large plugs that connect to the ECM (J1 and J2) didn't always have the green silicone rubber plugs in the open holes, so water could get in and through electrolysis, pins 1 & 2 would go away. This means the ECM is not coming back because the pins aren't replaceable.

All of the newer V Drive boats have a metal cover for the ECM and if yours doesn't have this, it needs one. Have the dealer look at the pins of the ECM. One will allow it to power up but the other is for most of the other functions that need positive voltage.

dummy
09-02-2008, 11:11 PM
Thanks Jim! Honestly, wish you were my tech guy out here!

You're correct. My boat doesn't have the metal cover for the ECM. I already checked all the pins on the ECM and they looked fine, but I'll mention it to my dealer. I realize the pins could be corroded inside the ECM even if they look fine from the outside. I wanna say my plugs have the green silicone gaskets/plugs, but I'll have them double check. It's been almost a month since I've laid eyes on anything under there.

I bet they won't put the cover on, but no biggie if not. I'll fab up a little aluminum cover for it when I get the boat back. Give me a chance to play with my new TIG welder.

JimN
09-02-2008, 11:50 PM
If you look at the J plug, it will have a Red B+ next to a Black ground wire. That's where the problem occurred because voltage was present on the Red and the moisture allowed a minute anout of current to flow. You have to open the plastic cover on the plug to see if the green plugs are missing, or not. Call MC and tell them that your boat never had the cover installed. Also, make sure yours has the correct Checksum for that model and year.

California Skier?

dummy
09-03-2008, 12:10 AM
Yeah, I did open up the plugs, plus most of the other weatherpack connectors. Just wanted to make sure all the connections were good (not corroded or wires pulled out of the terminals).

I run a MEFI 3 computer on my '53 Willys. Just ran to the garage to look at the plugs in it, so at least I know for sure what they look like. Now that I know for sure what you're talking about, I'm not certain anymore about there being any green plugs in there when I had them opened up. Here's hoping. :rolleyes:

Yes, California Skier. It's funny - I tell them to check the things you suggest and their answer is always the same: "How do you know this!" :D

I'll make the calls tomorrow.

JimN
09-03-2008, 12:29 AM
That was their response when I talked to them about my cousin's '94 Prostar. They put 3 or 4 starters in it, 2 or 3 batteries and still couldn't get it to crank reliably. This was about the time Chuck was thinking about getting out of the business, like '98, or so. I went out to CA for the holidays and while I stayed at her house, I cobbled some tools together and spent a couple of hours checking it out and I didn't have any more problems with it (God, I hate not having my stuff with me but I don't think they would have let me on the plane with all of it).

I think Bob was pretty annoyed about half way through the call.

How far are you from Canyon Lake?

erkoehler
09-03-2008, 12:36 AM
Jim, we are having a grand opening this weekend.......you coming down to check out the new place?

JimN
09-03-2008, 12:44 AM
I'll see what I can do. I don't think I have too much going on.

erkoehler
09-03-2008, 12:45 AM
I can line up a few work orders if you want????

erkoehler
09-03-2008, 12:45 AM
Sorry about the thread jack......

dummy
09-03-2008, 01:22 AM
How far are you from Canyon Lake?

'Bout 40 miles south in Escondido. The other dealership in San Diego, On The Edge Watersports, has closed all but its service department. I spoke with them a few times and they seemed to know what they were talking about, but it was hard to get my calls returned. I never heard back from them when I left a message to schedule an appointment, so I took it to Cal. Skier.

My diesel is still under warranty, but otherwise I do all my own vehicle repairs myself, so it's sometimes a little frustrating relying on others to fix your junk. I'm pretty impatient when something is unfinished.

dummy
09-05-2008, 04:48 PM
For anybody following, I finally got the call from the dealership this afternoon. Diagnosis: Ignition Control Module. $1,300 for the part, 1.5hrs for install, .5 hr for diagnosis.

Not the cheapie CPS sensors I'd been crossing my fingers for, but at least I know what's doing.

ShamrockIV
09-05-2008, 04:51 PM
For anybody following, I finally got the call from the dealership this afternoon. Diagnosis: Ignition Control Module. $1,300 for the part, 1.5hrs for install, .5 hr for diagnosis.

Not the cheapie CPS sensors I'd been crossing my fingers for, but at least I know what's doing.


d@mn bro!!!!!

total cost???

2k?

JimN
09-05-2008, 05:21 PM
You'll be getting the old part back, right?

$1300 for just the IC module? Why? That's more than a new ECM.

flipper
09-05-2008, 05:25 PM
Ouch!!!!!!!!!

Sodar
09-05-2008, 05:45 PM
Good Luck !

JimN
09-05-2008, 05:49 PM
If they haven't done the replacement, have them stop working on it. If they're so sure it's the IC module, they're charging an awful lot for a part that retails for $777 and change.

There are two different modules- a Delco part and a Motorola. Get the part number from yours and google it. Do a local search for the part and an online search.

This link is gonna leave a mark for someone.

http://www.trademotion.com/partlocator/index.cfm?action=getJointLocator&siteid=214638&chapter=&Sectionids=3,2413&groupid=2424&subgroupid=4354&componentid=0&make=5&model=Deville&year=1996&graphicID=BA94255&callout=1&catalogid=2&displayCatalogid=0

flipper
09-05-2008, 06:35 PM
I was thinking the same thing, even if you have to go to another non dealer shop to have it installed.

dummy
09-05-2008, 06:38 PM
Ah crap. I NEVER let myself get taken in the automotive world. Figures I'm a chump with the boat. :mad:

Thanks all. Been up on the roof doing some solar panel work and came down to read this. Called the dealer but they're in the middle of the replacement. Told her about the price discrepency and she's "checking into it" when her parts guy is back from lunch. I thought it seemed spendy. Guess at that price it'd better include the coil packs and everything, huh? Jim, thanks for the link. The $513.27 price they list that part for is like salt in an open wound, but it should be good ammo for the fight that's bound to be coming.

I'll keep this post updated as I hear stuff. Hey, at the very least it should be entertaining drama, right? :rolleyes:

JimN
09-05-2008, 07:22 PM
If the coil packs work, there's no reason to replace them unless they're included in the $1300 (they have separate part numbers, so I would assume they aren't).

I havae a major problem with excessive markup on parts. Happy customers will provide far more profit that overcharging on parts. Get what the market will bear but holy crap! If your market will bear prices like this, I'm moving and opening my own shop.

dummy
09-05-2008, 07:33 PM
Okay. Just got the whole story. That price is for the entire thing - ICM, coils, bracket - the works.

Apparently they can't get just the ICM from Indmar anymore, so they'd have to order it from Tennessee and it would be $40 for shipping, plus a week for it to arrive. They also said there's a chance of damaging the new ICM if one of the coil packs is/does go bad.

They buy the new ignition setup for $987 (or something like that) and are knocking a couple hundred off the $1300 price. They're also giving me my old one back. I'll hang on to it for spare coils or I'll fix it and put it in one of my Jeeps. I've got a 5.7L Hemi on a stand in the garage that's gonna use a crank trigger ignition and it may come in handy.

I think in the end it's a few hundred more than I was planning on, but isn't it always? Still a little chapped, but at least I understand their side of it better than when I was assuming they were marking the part up nearly 50%. At least I'll get my boat back. Time to call my condo reservation lady in Havasu!

dummy
09-17-2008, 02:04 PM
Little update. My dealer called last Friday (Sept. 5) to tell me about their diagnosis mentioned the the threads above. Told them to go ahead and fix it. They swapped out the entire ignition. Then I didn't hear from them again. Called this past Friday (Sept. 12) to see what was going on since I hadn't heard from them. Girl told me she'd have the tech call me on my cell phone to explain what was going on. No call. Finally, I called them today (Sept 17) and talked with the service manager.

Apparently it's still not getting spark and the Ohms aren't right. I couldn't get any more details than that (tech wasn't on the phone) but I assume they're talking about that purple and white wire going into the coil packs that is getting 4.8V instead of the 1-2V Jim N says it should be getting. They called Mastercraft and Indmar who recommended checking the CPS sensors. ***!!!!! Wouldn't they check those before swapping in a $1300 ignition system? I told them I could have fixed the boat myself by just throwing new parts at it. To be honest, this isn't the level of service I was expecting as a Mastercraft owner. I know my boat is an '00, but come on!

At this point I'm convinced the folks at California Skier in Lake Elsinore can't find their *** with both hands, a map, and a team of Sherpas. How realistic is it for me to demand they put my original parts back on and I just get my boat the hell out of there? What will they be able to charge me for? I'll be pissed if I've got to pay for the labor on their failed attempts or any parts they've put on thus far, but I've completely lost confidence in these clowns. They've had my boat nearly 5 weeks with nothing to show for it.

On a related note, can anybody recommend a good Mastercraft or Indmar dealer down here in So. Cal? I'm in Escondido in N. San Diego, but I'll tow the boat a couple hours for a good dealer. My buddy owns a Moomba with an Indmar power plant and he's really happy with his dealer's service. Kinda like taking your Benz to the Kia dealer, but at this point.... Any thoughts?

x-10ron
09-17-2008, 03:26 PM
take it to the kia dealer (moomboob dealer), sometime all's it takes is a fresh set of eye's. good luck.

JimN
09-17-2008, 06:21 PM
Re: the 1-2V I mentioned- I thought I also said something about digging my LTR manual out to verify, which I haven't been able to find.

Are they using the manual for this? If they are, it should have been diagnosed in about an hour.

You want to contact MC about how it is/isn't going. How far are you from Corona? Indmar has a facility there.

If what they replaced didn't fix it, I would talk to Chuck. Matter of fact, I would call Chuck before anything else happens.

dummy
09-17-2008, 06:32 PM
They said on the phone they were "using the manual" or "going by the manual." I was in the truck while talking to him, so I couldn't take notes or even hear all that well.

Corona is just a hop up the road. My office is in Beverly Hills 126-miles door-to-door from my house, so I don't really mind a drive.

I'll do a search for who Chuck is and will give him a call.

Sodar
09-17-2008, 06:43 PM
Chuck Sacks is the owner of Cali Skier. I do not think he has much involvement in it other than walking to the bank from what I have heard from others.

JimN
09-17-2008, 06:47 PM
He was the owner of California Skier. I haven't heard if that has changed but I would be barking up some trees if they can't find the cause of a no-spark issue. There just aren't that many causes, as I said before.

The ECM sees 12V on some of the pins, gets cranking info from the CPS, gets input from the sensors and when the RPM goes over 300RPM, it knows that the motor isn't cranking anymore, it's running. If the fuses are all good and the harness/terminals are all OK, it should be running.

You have two CPS, correct? Did they try swapping them to see if it will fire? If they're reversed, the ECM will think it's cranking backward. Ask if they reversed them before subbing the IC module and coil packs.

dummy
09-17-2008, 06:54 PM
I swapped the CPS sensors before I brought it in there, then swapped them back in their original position. From what I gathered they just got to the CPS sensors, so I doubt they messed with it before swapping the ICM.

I don't want to speculate, though. I'll call and will see if they can give me a rundown of what they've done so far. I'll post back if for no other reason than comedic/dramatic value.

dummy
09-17-2008, 07:13 PM
Now they think it's the harness (it's the only thing they haven't tried yet). I told them if they mess with the harness and the boat starts with the new ICM then I want them to put my old ICM back in to make sure it's still good.

I guess a short in the harness would sort of explain why that purple/white wire was picking up some extra voltage, no? Kicker is I told them about that wire voltage anomaly when I first dropped it off and have mentioned it every time I've spoken with them so far. :rolleyes:

JimN
09-17-2008, 07:24 PM
I wish I found this kind of thing funny. We had one group who just couldn't get their boat to run at Advanced On-water Diagnostics and they tried everything. The guys at Alan's shop had made sure all of the boats would crank but not fire and if we diagnosed a bad part for the right reasons, we would get a replacement and continue. If we gave the wrong reason for replacing a part, like saying it looked old and nasty, they would say that it was back-ordered or out of stock. Anyway, they tried everything and it turned out to the the CPS in hte wrong order.

The moral is that the cause is sometimes very simple. One bad terminal, a broken wire, a fuse that looks good but isn't, etc.

Did they sub the ECM yet? Remember the problem I mentioned can happen with little visible indication, too. If they have an ECM like yours, all they would need to do it copy the checksum for its program and make sure they have all of the correct programs so it can be re-programmed after subbing it.

dummy
09-17-2008, 07:40 PM
I don't know about subbing out the ECM. I asked Rich (the service manager) to get with the tech and give me a rundown of what they've tried so far. I doubt they'll get to it, but at least I asked.

The real kicker is I dropped it off with them so I wouldn't have to worry about all this stuff. I'm frustrated, but not mad. It's just a pain in my arse keeping on top of them and moving things along. I get the sense if I didn't call and make a nuisance of myself then it'd be sitting there until Christmas.

JimN
09-17-2008, 09:43 PM
"I get the sense if I didn't call and make a nuisance of myself then it'd be sitting there until Christmas."

Oh, you're just being optimistic, aren't you?

If their service department is really slammed because of the other dealer, I sympathise but ultimately, it's their responsibility to get everything done, correctly and as quickly as possible, especially since the boating season isn't over. Too bad this didn't happen at the end of the season.

dummy
10-15-2008, 09:46 PM
Just to close this little saga - after 2 months and 1 day the boat is finally home. Brought it back yesterday.

Final diagnosis was Ignition Control Module and both CPS sensors. Total was $1780 and change.

I did e-mail Mastercraft about my experiences with this dealer and received a reply from customer service, but I guess I won't go into that now.

Gotta say, next time my boat needs someting that I don't have the time to handle myself I'll take the advice I got from one of the members here via PM and drive my boat to Vegas.

JimN
10-15-2008, 10:34 PM
I used to hear good things about MC of Arizona, in PHX, too.

Jbaba
08-15-2011, 01:41 PM
I am a new owner of a used 2001 x30 w/330LTR... What was the symptom of your problem as well as the final fix? My MC left me stranded after running for about an hour, no radio, no starting..dead although bilge and lights worked. I replaced the ignition/key switch which seemed to work fine when running it on the driveway using the engine flush for about 20 minutes shutting off and starting again. took it to the lake and once again after an hour of cruising, I shut off the engine to float and listen to tunes and no radio, no ignition, no start..."dead in the water"

Jbaba
08-15-2011, 01:43 PM
I like your pic of the Les Paul and 59 Bassman... I also have an ambertop quilted LP standard and a 59 Bassman..

JimN
08-15-2011, 09:53 PM
I like your pic of the Les Paul and 59 Bassman... I also have an ambertop quilted LP standard and a 59 Bassman..

Thanks- it's actually a '58 Bassman chassis in the '59 reissue cabinet and speakers. I bought the chassis over 30 years ago and the rest was long gone, unfortunately. The amp is mine but the LP is owned by Greg Koch. That was in the studio the day he recorded the tracks for the Tom Wheeler book called 'The Soul Of Tone- the First 60 Years of Fender Amplifiers'.

dummy
08-16-2011, 09:57 AM
I am a new owner of a used 2001 x30 w/330LTR... What was the symptom of your problem as well as the final fix? My MC left me stranded after running for about an hour, no radio, no starting..dead although bilge and lights worked. I replaced the ignition/key switch which seemed to work fine when running it on the driveway using the engine flush for about 20 minutes shutting off and starting again. took it to the lake and once again after an hour of cruising, I shut off the engine to float and listen to tunes and no radio, no ignition, no start..."dead in the water"

Sounds like you may be popping a circuit breaker. There are a couple on the engine hear the computer (near the ski pylon). Also, check and clean your battery connections. That'd be my first step in the diagnosis. It's a long read, but go through all the post in this thread. JimN and others give some very, very good diagnostic tests to perform on an LTR with a no-start issue. Stuff like crank position sensors, checking for codes, etc.

My symptoms weren't the same as yours. For mine, everything worked, but the boat wouldn't fire. The engine would crank over, all the lights, bilge, radio, etc were fine. It'd just keep cranking over and not fire.


In my case, a new ignition control module was the fix. My dealership replaced the entire assembly, including new coil packs. If I had more time (and a little more experience at the time with these marine systems) I could've just bought a standard GM auto ignition control module from a variety of aftermarket sources and transferred my coil packs over myself for a substantial savings.

Anyway, that seemed to be the fix. My boat has run flawlessly ever since.

My only issue now is my gauges intermittently go out, but once again - it's common to these boats. I've checked my grounds and unplugged my oil pressure gauge (the first gauge to start malfunctioning) but now they're all out. I'll eventually replace all my stepper gauges and, if necessary, the computer. All the info is here about the gauges as well if yours ever develops that problem.

Jbaba
08-20-2011, 01:05 PM
Thanks for the tips.... I am taking my x30 in to Mastercraft of Arizona this week... I need some piece of mind.

Jbaba
08-30-2011, 01:04 AM
I got my X30 back on Saturday, the 50amp breaker was tripped but with no evidence of any shorts or bad connections. Had the breaker replaced anyways, took the boat out and ran it steady for over two hours with no issues. Possibly a weak breaker? We shall see.....

JimN
08-30-2011, 11:26 AM
Voltage drop due to loose/dirty connections causes contacts to get hot. In a breaker, this means the bi-metal can become more susceptible to "popping" before it's really necessary.