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boofer
07-04-2008, 01:12 AM
Hello,

The motor on our boat started dying when in idle. It would only happen when the gas was below 1/2 tank. The motor would always restart after a few seconds and ran strong when under way. From my reading it appeared to be a clogged fuel filter. I am not going to get into the details of the whole fuel filter vs fuel level discussion. Do a search and you will find plenty of reading material.

Although there are many posts about changing the fuel filter, there are no pictures. And a picture is definitely worth a thousand words. So, I took a few pictures a long the way in hopes that it will help those who are wanting to do the same. As I found, it was not entirely as one might think.

So, I ordered a new filter, new seal, and 12 new bolts. MC does not sell just the washers. The part numbers are 155-101 (fuel filter), 155-102 (gasket-fuel), and 155-127 (bolt module). I bought, but did not need, a fuel line removal tool. I was able to remove the fuel pump enough to replace the filter without having to remove the fuel line.

Here is a pic of the tools I needed/supplies I used.
http://carpron.com/multisite/d/233407-2/Picture+170.jpg

Here is a pic of the fuel pump "module." I had already disconnected the fuel pump wiring harness and disconnected the battery.
http://carpron.com/multisite/d/233410-2/Picture+171.jpg

sand2snow22
07-04-2008, 01:26 AM
Awesome, keep the pics coming!

boofer
07-04-2008, 01:59 AM
The only special tool that I actually needed was a 5/16" hex socket and a in-lb torque wrench.

I waited till we had only a small amount of gas in the tank (1/4 tank maybe). The less, the better.

Start by disconnecting the battery negative terminal. Next, disconnect the wiring connector. Now, remove the vent tube clamp and the vent tube. Okay, now remove the 12 bolts. I found it handy to have a bucket for the discarded parts.

Now, this was the part of the procedure that I was not prepared for. I had pictured a fuel pump with a filter on the bottom. The fuel pump is a kind of module and the "plastic" part actually slides up and down. Here is a picture.

http://carpron.com/multisite/d/233416-2/Picture+173.jpg

I pulled out this "module" and allowed it to drain for a few minutes. The filter has two clips on it and a small nipple that is attahced to a small black tube on the side not pictured. Removing the old filter was not as easy as it seems. It was on tight. I had to bend the clips and work it off. Make sure you keep the little black tube. When I started to install the new filter the little black tube would not line up with the notch it goes in. So, I compared the two filters and the nipple is in a slightly different position on the new filter. Here is a pic of how the nipples line up between the two filters.

http://carpron.com/multisite/d/233419-2/Picture+174.jpg

I did not have any choice but to install the small black tube and just leave it out of the notch. It fits tight on the nipple and I do not think it will be a problem. I bought the filter from the dealer. So, I used exactly what they would of used.

Just as the old filter was hard to remove, the new filter was equally hard to get on. Place the module back in the tank with a new seal. Line up the holes in the seal with the holes in the tank and the module. Mine did not line up perfectly. So, I partially installed a single bolt and then worked in a circle (installing the bolts only partially). I numbered each hole from 1-12. I tightened each bolt a little at a time in a certain order (12, 3, 6, 9, 1, 4, 7, 10, 2, 5, 8, 11). I finished the tightening with a torque wrench to 45in-lbs. Replace the vent hose and clamp. Reattach the wiring harness and the negative battery cable. All done.

I used my fake-a-lake for a quick test then followed up with a lake test. I did not add any gas since I needed it at a low fuel level. The motor only died once at the ramp when we were getting ready to put the boat on the trailer. I had gone to get the truck and the wife and kids were all in the front when it stalled. Otherwise, I did my dangest to recreate the problem without success (which was good). I credit the one stall with the boat being nose heavy with the wife and kids all in the front with less than a 1/4 tank of gas which resulted in the pump being "out of gas." The motor restarted and I had absolutely no problem getting it on the trailer (weighted towards stern with only me in the boat).

Is it fixed? I think so. Although I did not find any obvious clogging of the old filter and I could not see anything obvious in the tank. I think that I may of been the victim of ethanol. I was not aware that ethanol attracts water. And, it apparently does some other nasty crap that can clog a filter rather easily. The gas in our area all contains 10% ethanol. I know that MC and Indmar tell us to use fuel with no ethanol, but up to 10% ethanol is acceptable. I also found a website that the Indmar manual mentions that lists "acceptable" fuel retailers. They apparently test gasoline and only retailers that "pass" their tests are listed. I have not been using fuel from any of these retailers, but I plan to in the future. I am also going to use a fuel additive (Stabil, Star Tron) on every fill up.

boofer
07-04-2008, 02:06 AM
I almost forgot. Although I did not have to remove the fuel line to the motor, I was prepared to do so. For all of those unfamiliar with the Shrader valve, here is a picture of it (the black cap is already removed). It is just like a bicycle valve. You have to remove any pressure in the fuel line prior to removing the line from the fuel pump module. Depress the valve through a towel to catch the fuel. It only squirted a few drops.

http://carpron.com/multisite/d/233429-2/Picture+172a.JPG

rhsprostar
07-04-2008, 09:33 AM
Nice work. I will try to post my fuel pump replacement this weekend as the first part is exactly the same, and you have great pics. I had the same problem with the little black tube by the way. If you have any more issues with not starting or the motor dying i would check fuel pressure asap. My guess is that your fuel pump may be on the way out.

boofer
07-04-2008, 02:00 PM
rhsprostar,

It would be great if you could snap a few pics during your fuel pump replacement. This subject has been talked about in great detail, but no one till now has bothered to take any pictures. Pictures are definitely worth a thousand words.

I am going to see how things go with the new filter for now. I think we suffered all of the classic symptoms of a clogged fuel filter. The problem only occurred at idle with less than 1/2 tank of gas. But, since I cannot confirm beyond a reasonable doubt that it was the fuel filter, I will keep the thought of a bad fuel pump in the back of my mind.

Any advice on an inexpensive fuel pressure tool that I can attach and leave attached while running the engine at different throttle settings? I have rebuilt cars, but I have never had to check fuel pressure before. By the way, the manual does specify that the pressure should be between 53 and 58 psi. I read several posts and guys were saying 60psi which is close but higher than needed.

rhsprostar
07-04-2008, 02:31 PM
A regular fuel pressure guage that attaches to the schrader valve will do the job. BUT....you should always see 58 psi there as the fuel pressure regulator is on top of the module you took out. You can see from your picture the 58 marked on the top. So as long as the pump can supply enough flow the regulator keeps that constant at 58 psi.(I think)
The pump replacement just goes further from where you left off. Only a few more steps of disassembly of the plastic pieces to access the pump. You can see the leads, fuel line and pump in your pic.
I will try to post more this weekend but it is supposed to be nice out so it might be Monday! I want to try out my new Goode 9800sl!!

'02xrider
07-04-2008, 06:39 PM
I just changed the filter on my '02 after having a day out where toward the end of the day, the motor just shut down while at speed (still over a quarter tank). I managed to start and go several times to get back in. I immediately replaced the filter.

I have been out twice since then with no issues. Wednesday, as my wife was idling away from the dock waiting for me to back the trailer down, it died and would not restart. I am now looking at the fuel pump..$475 locally..ouch!! Of course it comes with the plastic float attached. I thought I saw on here where there was a fuel pump that was a direct replacement from an auto parts store but I can't seem to find the thread.

boofer
07-06-2008, 03:47 PM
Dang rhsprostar, you got good eyes. I cannot see that "58 psi" anywhere. I would gander that 58 psi is what the pump is suppose to supply. The 53-58 psi is Indmars requirement for the engine. I will probably check the pressure at some point. I was expecting to see more "garbage" in the filter that would of been the proverbial "smoking gun." EDIT: I see the black "58" on it.

'02xrider, I have read the same things about a direct off the shelf replacement and also about replacement parts for the pump, i.e. you do not have to replace the entire pump. I guess there are certain components that tend to go bad and you can replace those components if you have the smarts to do it.

Any suggestions on a good fuel pressure tool would be appreciated. If I buy one I would like to be able to use it with my cars (all Toyotas). And, am I correct that to monitor the pressure while underway will require that I run the tool through a crevice or something in the cushions? Or, is it okay to simply run the motor up while stationary (on the water) and not under load?

boofer
07-07-2008, 05:03 AM
Okay, I bought a fuel pressure tester today. The pressure at key-ON-engine-OFF was 58. At idle the needle oscillated a bunch, but the mean reading was 58-59 and oscillation was from 56-60. I ran the engine up to 2000rpms and the reading was the same. But, the motor died twice; once at idle and once at about 1500rpms. Each time I was able to get it restarted after a few seconds. The gas tank is about 1/4 full or slightly less. I filled up the tank and ran the tests again. I got the same results and the motor never died. So, I think that it is just the in-tank pump design. I read a post from JimN somewhere where he added up the various heights of the filter/pump assembly which set the minimum pickup height in the tank at approximately 4 inches. That's 4 inches of unusable fuel which just so happens to be right at 1/4 of a tank.

The only mention of a minimum gas level in the boat from the manual pertains to the breakin period. It says to not go under 1/4 of a tank of gas until it is known that there is not any contamination in the tank. This undoubtedly implies that it is okay to run below a 1/4 tank after the breakin and there should be no negative effects.

I found so many posts about failed fuel pumps. There are even several posts about them (MC only) at Wakeworld. What kills me is, if this is a known DEFECT, then why hasn't MC done anything about it? Telling me that I have 8 gallons of unusable fuel in my 33 gallon tank is pathetic!!! Heck, my car only has a 11 gallon tank. If 8 gallons were unusable, I could hardly go anywhere without filling up. Granted, marine components are required to meet a slightly different set of standards is acceptable. But, I tried to find posts on other boat manufacturers forums about fuel pump problems and they are virtually nonexistent. That tells me that MC has a bad design and needs to fix it. A problem here and there is typical, but one as prevalent as this one constitutes a fix and a recall.

Okay, I will settle down now. One thing that I have not ruled out is water in the gas tank. Is there a simple way to test for water in the gas tank?

bigmac
07-07-2008, 10:14 AM
Yes, it's (...insert your own word here...) that MasterCraft has persisted with this non-functional design for at least 6 years with no apparent improvement in the failure rate (AFAICT from posts here and on WakeWorld). They have said it's a superior way to deliver fuel, and I would agree that that is true in theory, but their implementation apparently results in 1/4 tank (for me that's 15 gallons) of unusable fuel. If I violate that, it's about a $500 penalty. They have apparently acknowledged this substandard design by (according to rumor) extending the warranty on the fuel pump to two years. I can only assume that cost-accounting has led them to the conclusion that it's cheaper to accept the warranty implications and the bad press than to design and implement a crash program to come up with a new fuel-delivery system.

JimN
07-07-2008, 10:28 AM
I don't remember ever seeing that the filter should be 4" above t he bottom, but I do remember mentioning that the filter has a 1/4" "foot" on the bottom that keeps the element above water that may accumulate in teh tank in normal situations, assuming the gas doesn't have water in it. I have said that fuel senders should be set so Empty isn't at the point where the tank is actually empty, but I wouldn't raise ht pump to that height.

rhsprostar
07-07-2008, 11:29 AM
The filter does sit on little nubs on the bottom of the tank that keep it up about 1/4 inch. You can't adjust the pickup height of the filter because by design it has to sit on the bottom of the tank. There is a spring in the plastic assembly that keeps the filter on the bottom even if the tank flexes. The only adjustment would be to the plastic straw which I beleive allows unfiltered fuel to enter the pickup at a set height.
If you changed the height of the straw it would allow fuel in (unfiltered) at a lower level. (I think)
As far as the fuel pump component of the fuel module it can be replaced by itself. I left the actual Napa box at the lake again with the part number but if you cross reference it with ACDelco part EP356 you will get what you need.
If you look at this thread:
http://www.tmcowners.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=24695
You will get some more info including a part number from ADvance Auto parts for a pump(part number E2044 about $85)
I used a Napa part and have had no problems for about 2 months now.
I will get it tonight and post the install tomorrow.
Sorry for the delay but the good news is that i found the pics on my wife's computer.

boofer
07-07-2008, 03:11 PM
JimN, forgive me if I misquoted you. I had been reading for many hours and the brain was turning to mush. But, you added up the 1/4" and the lip of the filter. and something else (tank design?). The measurement was maybe something more like 1.5-2". The gist of what you were saying though is that the design of the pump/filter will never pick up any fuel on the bottom 1-2".

rhoprostar, what kind of motor do you have? If I recall you checked with enginenut and confirmed that this pump is an acceptable replacement. I cannot wait to see the pics.

boofer
07-07-2008, 04:11 PM
Just a little update. I called Federal Mogul tech support.

The tech said that MC does not allow them to sell aftermarket components. He said that MC is unique in this aspect. FM are allowed to sell aftermarket components for cars and such (with permission from the manufacturers). He did say that it is a FM pump in the module and not another brand. One of the reasons that he did mention for replacing the entire module is the lines on the fuel pump. He said boats have burned up due to incorrect work being done. After thinking about this it really makes no sense. If something happens to a line connected to the fuel pump (breaks or tears), then all of the gas stays in the tank. I would gander that he was not entirely familiar with this module and may of been thinking about pumps that are not in the tank.

Now, here is the REALLY interesting thing. He said that I was the third person calling about the MC module TODAY. I really wonder about this situation. Does MC make any extra money from selling/installing this entire module as opposed to replacing just the pump? Granted, replacing the entire module is simpler than replacing the pump, but why replace the entire module if just the pump does not work? That's like replacing the whole motor on a car just because the dizzy went bad.

What would be really great is if someone who has done the replacement to keep the old pump and do some research. One guy posted that he was able to disassemble the pump and replace the "guts." That might be a little more than I would do, but grabbing all of the nomenclature off of the old pump would definitely be an asset. I am leary about using non-OEM parts for something like a boat. But, it appears that this ACDelco pump is working fine. I have not read anywhere that anyone who has replaced their pump with the ACDelco pump is having any trouble.

I know that manufacturers use other brands in their systems. I would not argue if FM was using an ACDelco pump in their modules and even renaming it to carry a FM part number. Dell does not build laptops. They buy them and stamp their name on them, as an example.

rhsprostar
07-08-2008, 03:10 PM
Funny, I called Federal Mogul as well, about 2 months ago with the same questions.
Same answers as you got.
I am going to try to get the pump replacement "How To" together tonight.
Boofer do you mind if i use some of your pics for the initial part of the removal? They are better than what I have.

boofer
07-08-2008, 03:58 PM
No problem.

Did you by any chance keep the old pump?

rhsprostar
07-08-2008, 04:04 PM
It's in the Napa box! I am not sure how difficult these things are to disassemble as I think they are sealed at the factory but if yopu want to give it a shot PM me your info and I can send it to you.

ncsone
07-08-2008, 04:21 PM
Can anyone (JimN?) explain the purpose of the short section (~4") of small diameter black hose that comes up from the top of the fuel filter outside of the pump assembly? It seems that if the fuel level dips below the top of that tube, the pump would be able to pull air into the pump. It also seems to me that it would be easier for the pump to pull air in than fuel. And, I think we all know that pumps are burning up because they are not getting enough fuel through them to cool.

Anyone have any thoughts on the purpose of that tube?

JimN
07-08-2008, 04:29 PM
What the tube does depends on exactly where it attaches. My guess is that, since the regulator is on the top of the assembly, it's for what used to be handled by the return line.

'02xrider
07-08-2008, 04:37 PM
I to am curious about the small black tube. I just installed a new assembly and noticed the tube on the new one was capped off and attached to the side of the plastic. The cap does not appear to be temporary either. It is clamped to the tube.

On the old assembly, it was not capped..I am confused.

ncsone
07-08-2008, 04:41 PM
The tube is a 4" piece of 1/8" plastic tubing that connects to a port on the top of the fuel filter. The tube runs vertically parallel the the entire fuel pump assembly. When the assembly is installed, the open, top portion of the tube sits about 5-6" off of the bottom of the tank. The bottom portion of the tube connects to the fuel filter and opens directly to the pump (filtered) side of the fuel filter.

Again, I am just not sure what the purpose of the tube could be other than to let unfiltered fuel into the pump when there is more than 6" of fuel in the tank.

'02xrider
07-08-2008, 05:07 PM
NCsone,

I would be inclined to think the same thing, but as I said, on the new assembly, the tube is capped off...

ncsone
07-08-2008, 05:18 PM
I will have to look into that. Just ordered/installed a new filter and it did not come with a new tube/cap.

hmmm.

boofer
07-08-2008, 05:20 PM
I think that the tube should be uncapped. I think ncsone is correct in his assessment. The tube may of been capped for shipping purposes. Otherwise, why have the tube if it is suppose to remain capped? I think that it is suppose to be uncapped.

'02xrider
07-08-2008, 05:33 PM
I am very curious about this now. As I said, it did not appear to be a temporary cap. It was crimped on..

boofer
07-08-2008, 05:34 PM
My new filter did not come with a tube. So, I reused the one that was on my old filter. The only odd thing was the fact that there is a groove on the outside of the module for the tube. But, the nipple on the new filter was in a different place and would not line up with the groove. You can see this in one of my pictures.

I gander that the tube allows fuel from higher in the tank to be filtered since the nipple is on the outside of the filter. Since I did not remove the entire module to replace the filter, I did not get a good look at how the pump is oriented in the module. So, I do not have a clue why it is there if the pump module is only suppose to filter fuel from lower in the tank as mentioned by others.

boofer
07-08-2008, 05:38 PM
Crimped on? Hmmmm. That sounds odd, unless it is meant as a cap during shipping and you are expected to replace it with the old tube. I might be tempted to give a dealer a call about that one. The guys at Charlotte MC are extremely helpful and might be able to give you the correct information. I believe that Joe is the tech or talk to Mike.

boofer
07-11-2008, 01:25 AM
I did some looking at other boat/engine fuel delivery system configurations. Here is a page out of the PCM manual. These particular PCM engines are used on most of the other wakeboard/ski boats except Malibu.

http://carpron.com/multisite/d/236036-2/Picture+176.jpg

"Fuel Control Cell (FCC) Fuel System
The Fuel Control Cell (FCC) eliminates vapor lock and air ingestion caused by fuel tank slosh, and provides the necessary filtration and water separation. The FCC system incorporates two (2) fuel pumps to provide an uninterrupted flow of fuel to your PCM marine engine. Fuel is fed into the FCC bowl by a low-pressure, high-volume electric fuel pump. This pump flows fuel at a volume much greater than the fuel flow rate required of the high-pressure pump and engine demands. The high pressure pump, mounted inside the FCC bowl, provides the necessary fuel pressure and volume to maintain proper engine performance. The FCC constantly has an ample supply of fuel to meet the idle, cruise and acceleration fuel requirements of the engine. The fuel pressure regulator may be located on the fuel rail or inside the FCC bowl, controls the fuel pressure and maintains a constant pressure across the fuel delivery system. Excess fuel, not used by the engine, returns to the FCC bowl. The fuel delivered to the engine by the FCC is filtered by a filter and water separator element, which surrounds the high pressure pump inside the FCC bowl. As indicated above, fuel enters the FCC bowl from two (2) locations, the low-pressure pump (initial input) and the fuel pressure regulator (unused, recirculating fuel). Fuel exits the FCC bowl at two (2) locations, the high-pressure output to the fuel injection system and all excess fuel in the FCC bowl is routed back to the tank via the return line."

Assuming the hose to the tank is mounted on the bottom, it is perfectly safe to assume that you can use most of of the fuel in the tank without any harm to the high pressure pump. I cannot say for sure but I think that if you were to run the tank/pump empty you can still run the chance of frying your pump. But, pop open the canister and replace the pump.

Just an example.

boofer
07-14-2008, 03:43 PM
Thinking about doing the pump change with an aftermarket pump. How are the wires connected on the inside of the module? Same goes for the fuel lines inside the module. How are they connected? I do not want to get started unless I know that I have everything that I need.

rhsprostar
07-14-2008, 09:32 PM
Thinking about doing the pump change with an aftermarket pump. How are the wires connected on the inside of the module? Same goes for the fuel lines inside the module. How are they connected? I do not want to get started unless I know that I have everything that I need.

The wires are simple spade connections that are sized according to polarity so that you can't reverse them. It's simply plug and play.
The fuel line is a different story.
The fuel line looks like a plastic shrink tubing of sorts. I had to pry it off with a pointed awl. The real difficulty was in reconnecting the new pump and the old line. I just couldn't get it to work properly so I cut the whole thing off and replaced it with a piece of high pressure fuel line. I used a couple of plastic connectors that i had around to secure it to the flange at both the top of the module and at the top of the pump. The only issue i could see was that the fuel line was thicker in it's sidewall than the thin plastic tube that was originally used. With the design of this system there is no return line to the tank from the motor as the fuel pressure regulator is on the top of the module.(with the 58 printed on it in your picture) So it looks like the excess fuel is redirected from the fuel pressure regulator back into the tank using an outlet that surrounds the inlet flange on the bottom of the regulator. I know it is hard to picture but i will try to do a diagram to illustrate.
Anyway you can't block the fuel return with the thicker fuel line, so you have to be careful to leave some extra space when you reclamp the top of the hose to the regulator side of the hookup.(Hope this makes sense)
Other than that it is the staright reverse of what you did to take the plastic assembly and filter apart.
I will see if I can get Coreldraw or something working to illustrate better tonight.

rhsprostar
07-14-2008, 10:09 PM
Here is the quick version of what i was trying to describe above.

boofer
07-14-2008, 10:25 PM
Thanks rhs. I have decided to go off the deep end and I ordered a new pump module from MC. It was only $418 :firejump: from MC of Charlotte. I plan on keeping the old module to do my "evaluation." Yes, I will not need your old pump. Many thanks for offering.

Granted, my fuel pressure is good. But, nevertheless, I just have this sneaky feeling that we are due for a complete fuel pump failure. The boat still died during my fuel pressure checks with the tank only approximately 1/4 of a tank. This problem started this year and is persisting.

I am going off of the deep end with my evaluation also. I would love to determine if there is a fix to the two problems: unusable fuel below 1/4 tank and fuel pump burnout. Worst case, I will at least determine/verify a safe alternative (possibly the AC Delco EP356) to use in lieu of the entire MC module.

I will do a write up on the fuel module replacement with pictures. I will do my best to work up a solution. So, expect to see posts about my endeavor in the near future.

boofer
07-14-2008, 10:30 PM
That is helpful rhs. I thought that I had a good idea what you meant and the picture verifies it. So, basically, the hose connecting the pump to the regulator was painfully attached to the old pump?

Since I did not look at my module very much when I did the filter change, does the bottom of the pump just sit open in the bottom of that plastic module?

boofer
07-14-2008, 10:34 PM
PS

For those contemplating replacing the fuel module. MC of Charlotte has this real nice matrix for determining which fuel module is for your boat.

http://207.170.215.108/awweblive/AwwebStore/OnlineDoc/Part%20numbers/FUEL%20MODULE%20MATRIX%2099-07.pdf (http://207.170.215.108/awweblive/AwwebStore/OnlineDoc/Part%20numbers/FUEL%20MODULE%20MATRIX%2099-07.pdf)

boofer
07-14-2008, 10:34 PM
PS

For those contemplating replacing the fuel module. MC of Charlotte has this real nice matrix for determining which fuel module is for your boat.

http://207.170.215.108/awweblive/AwwebStore/OnlineDoc/Part%20numbers/FUEL%20MODULE%20MATRIX%2099-07.pdf

rhsprostar
07-14-2008, 10:45 PM
That is helpful rhs. I thought that I had a good idea what you meant and the picture verifies it. So, basically, the hose connecting the pump to the regulator was painfully attached to the old pump?

Since I did not look at my module very much when I did the filter change, does the bottom of the pump just sit open in the bottom of that plastic module?

Boofer a write up would be great. I have been meaning to get one done but as i write this i am still at work trying to clean up a few things as its been crazy around here lately.
The hose wasn't that difficult to get off, its just getting it off without destroying it is the issue. If you know you are not going to reuse it, it takes about 10 seconds to cut off.
The bottom of the pump sits in a plastic circular housing that holds it in place. I will try to post a pic tonight when i get home.

boofer
07-14-2008, 10:57 PM
Awesome rhs. I enjoy doing these writeups. I can sit here and read for hours. Add a few pictures and the reading is decreased by 80%. A picture is definitely worth a thousand words.

I encourage everyone who is doing these maintenance jobs to take the time to take a few pictures a long the way. No big deal if you do not describe in excruciating detail what you did. Just give the rest of us an idea of what is going on.

boofer
07-14-2008, 11:03 PM
So rhs, does it appear that the pump draws fuel from the "pool" created by the filter and the plastic housing? Do you think that the little black hose that attaches to the filter is to allow unfiltered fuel in to this pool until the fuel gets below the top of it? If so, then the only way that fuel can get through to the pump after going below this black hose is through the filter. Thus, the only way for fuel to get to the pump is to "seep" through the filter. There is no active pumping or sucking of gas through the filter.

rhsprostar
07-14-2008, 11:45 PM
I took a close look at the old filter and from what i can see the little black straw allows UNfiltered fuel through when the tank is above the highest point. Below the top of the straw all the fuel goes through the filter. Strange design, why would you only filter the bottom 1/4of the tank? Is this why people say not to go below a 1/4 tank?
If this is the case you could either cut the straw lower to drop this level or remove it altogether and have the unfiltered point lowered even more.
My guess is that you may be correct about the "pool of fuel" inside the filter. If the filter becomes to plugged then at higher rpms thepump would not be able to suck enough fuel through that filter causing it to overheat. The straw allows this pool to be topped up should this happen???

rhsprostar
07-14-2008, 11:57 PM
Old carter fuel pump and the NAPA Canada replacement:

rhsprostar
07-15-2008, 12:12 AM
Here's the money shot. The inside of the plastic housing!

boofer
07-15-2008, 02:34 AM
Awesome rhs. I appreciate those photos. I bought a siphon pump today at the local auto parts store and for poops and grins asked them to see what came up for a AC Delco EP356. They gave me a referenced pump E2065 (the same as yours) for $73. By the way, what kind of boat/motor do you have? My fuel module does not have the springy thing. It just slides up and down.

But, like I said, I went ahead and ordered the full MC module. Maybe with some help from the fellow members we can come up with something to fix this flawed system.

From what you said earlier. I do believe that the "straw" is to allowed unfiltered fuel into the pump. This would jive with what many have said about unfiltered fuel being used till 1/2 tank. Now, once the level goes below the straw, the only way for fuel to enter the pool is through the filter. Well, here is one question, how fast can fuel pass through this filter? Also, does the excess fuel from the pressure regulator drop straight back into the pool? In other words, is enough fuel making it into this pool once the fuel level goes below 1/2 tank? At first the answer may be yes. The weight of the fuel at 1/2 tank is somewhat pushing fuel through the filter. But, as the level decreases, then so does the pressure. Now, let's say for a moment that you remove the fuel filter and go with totally unfiltered fuel (and suppose for a moment that you have 100% clean gas). Okay, you would be able to use below 1/4 tank of gas. BUT, the pump would still be exposed and thus not cooled (and fail). So, I really think that the problem lies with keeping this pool filled at all times and as far as I can think it would require a second pump similar to the PCM design.

If there was some way to add a low pressure pump to the system to keep the pool filled and allow this (low pressure) pump to draw from the bottom (or near bottom) of the tank, this would solve everything. Granted, you would still have to be careful about running the tank empty.

boofer
07-15-2008, 02:40 AM
By the way rhs, the fuel pump draws the same amount of fuel at any power setting. The pump I referenced says it is 90 psi. It is a one speed deal, i.e. it pumps out 90 psi anytime it is ON. The regulator decreases this pressure to 58 psi and the remainder goes back into the tank like you noticed. So, the motor will always get 58 psi unless the pump is putting out less.

pflcjl
07-15-2008, 08:05 AM
OK so the aftermarket AC Delco part number is EP356; Can anyone tell me what the AC Delco (or other) aftermarket part number is for the Fuel Filter......Thanks.....

JimN
07-15-2008, 10:42 AM
This site may have what you're looking for:

http://www.oehq.com/

rhsprostar
07-15-2008, 11:36 AM
By the way rhs, the fuel pump draws the same amount of fuel at any power setting. The pump I referenced says it is 90 psi. It is a one speed deal, i.e. it pumps out 90 psi anytime it is ON. The regulator decreases this pressure to 58 psi and the remainder goes back into the tank like you noticed. So, the motor will always get 58 psi unless the pump is putting out less.

Correct, as far as i can see that is how the system works without the return line.
The pump also puts out 45GPH which i verified with EngineNut is "more than enough" for my motor.
I have an 04 197 with the LQ9 motor.

rhsprostar
07-15-2008, 11:40 AM
OK so the aftermarket AC Delco part number is EP356; Can anyone tell me what the AC Delco (or other) aftermarket part number is for the Fuel Filter......Thanks.....

I think the filter is specific to Carter, so you have to go through a dealer.

rhsprostar
07-15-2008, 12:57 PM
Awesome rhs. I appreciate those photos. I bought a siphon pump today at the local auto parts store and for poops and grins asked them to see what came up for a AC Delco EP356. They gave me a referenced pump E2065 (the same as yours) for $73. By the way, what kind of boat/motor do you have? My fuel module does not have the springy thing. It just slides up and down.

But, like I said, I went ahead and ordered the full MC module. Maybe with some help from the fellow members we can come up with something to fix this flawed system.

From what you said earlier. I do believe that the "straw" is to allowed unfiltered fuel into the pump. This would jive with what many have said about unfiltered fuel being used till 1/2 tank. Now, once the level goes below the straw, the only way for fuel to enter the pool is through the filter. Well, here is one question, how fast can fuel pass through this filter? Also, does the excess fuel from the pressure regulator drop straight back into the pool? In other words, is enough fuel making it into this pool once the fuel level goes below 1/2 tank? At first the answer may be yes. The weight of the fuel at 1/2 tank is somewhat pushing fuel through the filter. But, as the level decreases, then so does the pressure. Now, let's say for a moment that you remove the fuel filter and go with totally unfiltered fuel (and suppose for a moment that you have 100% clean gas). Okay, you would be able to use below 1/4 tank of gas. BUT, the pump would still be exposed and thus not cooled (and fail). So, I really think that the problem lies with keeping this pool filled at all times and as far as I can think it would require a second pump similar to the PCM design.

If there was some way to add a low pressure pump to the system to keep the pool filled and allow this (low pressure) pump to draw from the bottom (or near bottom) of the tank, this would solve everything. Granted, you would still have to be careful about running the tank empty.

It looks like the returned fuel does not go back into the pool. After thinking about it, the big issue with letting the fuel level get low is in the fact that the pump is cooled by it being immersed in fuel. As the level drops it exposes the pump more and more and allows it to heat up causing failure. So it may be the module design not just a poor pump design that is the culprit here. Now it is possible that the pumps are just of poor quality, overheat easily and fail often. Will an aftermarket pump stand up better to a low fuel condition??? I guess only time will tell.

BuoyChaser
07-16-2008, 03:33 PM
Great pictures, should make replacing mine on my 2005 197 w/ MCX engine much easier!!!

KelBCx9
07-21-2008, 03:02 PM
On Saturday i commented to my wife that we just hit 600 hrs on my 03 X9 and within 5 minutes my boat stalled and would not start,after checking the fuel rail and no fuel coming out we paddled back to the lift. I did a search and found this thread and thought i would try the AC Delco EP 356 as it was cheaper than the NAPA one by $60. I double checked the rail before disconnecting the battery. It was 10 minutes out using a 3/16 HEX and fuel disconnectors.In the garage in a bucket and disassembled with my 15yr old . Back together and running in less than an hour. Will be using all this week until our lake is the site of the BC Summer Games Ski/Wakeboard site this weekend.
THANKS for all the great input.

rhsprostar
07-21-2008, 03:26 PM
On Saturday i commented to my wife that we just hit 600 hrs on my 03 X9 and within 5 minutes my boat stalled and would not start,after checking the fuel rail and no fuel coming out we paddled back to the lift. I did a search and found this thread and thought i would try the AC Delco EP 356 as it was cheaper than the NAPA one by $60. I double checked the rail before disconnecting the battery. It was 10 minutes out using a 3/16 HEX and fuel disconnectors.In the garage in a bucket and disassembled with my 15yr old . Back together and running in less than an hour. Will be using all this week until our lake is the site of the BC Summer Games Ski/Wakeboard site this weekend.
THANKS for all the great input.

Nice work, keep us posted about any issues etc. Did you check the specs on the ep356? GPH and pressure? Just curious because i used the Napa pump, and waswondering if they were identical.

KelBCx9
07-21-2008, 03:53 PM
No i figured if it cross referenced with the napa pump i would be ok. I went into this with the mindset that once the pump was out if it didn't match up to the old one i was going to have to replace it anyway.It looks the same as the one i replaced in my GMC with a 5.7. I will keep you posted.

ChrisG
07-21-2008, 07:13 PM
I'm in the process of putting my fuel pump assembly back together (after purchasing the AC Delco EP356) and have run into a little problem. I'm not sure which way the support flange and O-ring should fit back together. I took two pictures of them fitting both ways? Does anyone know which picture is correct?

KelBCx9
07-21-2008, 08:37 PM
I'm pretty sure the top is correct only the o-ring should go on first. You can see where the screws have marked the plastic.They hold down the pump.That is how i reassembled mine. You don't want the pump to move.

rhsprostar
07-21-2008, 08:51 PM
I did the install about 2 months ago and things are a little foggy but i think the top one is right. The o ring should go on first if i remember. What boat and mtor is it for? Year?

ChrisG
07-21-2008, 09:11 PM
Thanks guys. I think I figured it out. The o-ring does go on first...it just doesn't seem like a good fit...but then again, this whole set-up seems a bit odd. Anyhow, it's time to connect the wires. This seems like the most nerve racking step. Anytime I think of electrical and gasoline in the same sentence, it makes me nervous.

rhs - it's an 03 X9 with the Predator

rhsprostar
07-22-2008, 09:34 AM
Did you blow up?

ChrisG
07-22-2008, 01:26 PM
It worked like a charm. This aftermarket fuel pump seems to work better than the OEM one. Anyhow, the boat starts very easy now. With the old pump, it would crank over a few times before it actually started (when it started). Now, I barely turn the key and it starts right up. Thanks to everyone's help on this board, I was able to save $500 and do the job myself.

airwear
07-22-2008, 06:04 PM
Any guidance on when the fuel filter should be replaced? Is it solely based on if you are having problems, or is there a recommended # of hours as well??

It doesn't look like something I want to do unless I really need to.

ChrisG
07-22-2008, 07:55 PM
airware - I didn't replace the fuel filter (probably should have). Thanks to the people on this board, I was able to track down the fuel pump itself. I didn't read anywhere about an aftermarket fuel filter.

boofer
07-23-2008, 12:53 AM
airwear, it is recommended to replace the fuel filter once every 100 hours or yearly (per my manual).

5280Hawk
02-16-2011, 06:19 PM
So you have to go into the tank and pull that module every spring??

What a Pain! I still haven't found where i can get the filter either. Does DIM have them?

vision
02-16-2011, 07:16 PM
So you have to go into the tank and pull that module every spring??

What a Pain! I still haven't found where i can get the filter either. Does DIM have them?

While recommended in the manual, you will find that a significant number of MC owners and MC mechanics do not actually change the fuel filter at the bottom of the fuel pump every year. As many have said, change it when the pump dies. Others argue the pump will last longer if you change it. Obviously, how clean your gas stays and how low you run your tank will influence filter and pump longevity.

macattack
02-16-2011, 10:10 PM
So you have to go into the tank and pull that module every spring??

What a Pain! I still haven't found where i can get the filter either. Does DIM have them?

Yep, a pain, but it gets easier after the first time! I believe the only "filter" source is your local MC dealer; when you order the filter I would also suggest you get the rubber gasket that sits between the top of fuel module and fuel tank.

Thrall
02-17-2011, 11:09 AM
While recommended in the manual, you will find that a significant number of MC owners and MC mechanics do not actually change the fuel filter at the bottom of the fuel pump every year. As many have said, change it when the pump dies. Others argue the pump will last longer if you change it. Obviously, how clean your gas stays and how low you run your tank will influence filter and pump longevity.

A dealer I trust told me not to worry about the filter at 100hrs and basically not to change it at all as long as the fuel tank stays clean. Makes sense I suppose. Most of the automobile in-tank pump filter combos don't have a maint interval for the filter, and even if they did, 100hrs is nothing to put on a car engine. The average car at 100k miles has 2000-3000hrs on the engine. 20-30 fuel filters in 100k miles is waaaaay excessive unless you got a rusty old gas tank.

JimN
02-17-2011, 03:24 PM
A dealer I trust told me not to worry about the filter at 100hrs and basically not to change it at all as long as the fuel tank stays clean. Makes sense I suppose. Most of the automobile in-tank pump filter combos don't have a maint interval for the filter, and even if they did, 100hrs is nothing to put on a car engine. The average car at 100k miles has 2000-3000hrs on the engine. 20-30 fuel filters in 100k miles is waaaaay excessive unless you got a rusty old gas tank.

The difference between car/truck filters and boat filters is that a car or truck's tank is sealed and pressurized, unlike a boat tank that has a vent to the atmosphere. This introduces a lot of moisture to the tank and we've all seen stories from people who found that their gas was badly contaminated by water and phase separation. The reason the tanks aren't pressurized? Look at the Coast Guard for that.

Thrall
02-17-2011, 04:39 PM
The difference between car/truck filters and boat filters is that a car or truck's tank is sealed and pressurized, unlike a boat tank that has a vent to the atmosphere. This introduces a lot of moisture to the tank and we've all seen stories from people who found that their gas was badly contaminated by water and phase separation. The reason the tanks aren't pressurized? Look at the Coast Guard for that.

Makes sense, but the filter isn't a water separator, so if one starts out with a clean tank and presumably filtered fuel from a decent filling station, the filter should last much longer than 100hrs I'd think.

JimN
02-17-2011, 09:38 PM
Makes sense, but the filter isn't a water separator, so if one starts out with a clean tank and presumably filtered fuel from a decent filling station, the filter should last much longer than 100hrs I'd think.

Not a water separator specifically, but when phase separation occurs, it doesn't flow much of anything very well.

Jerseydave
02-17-2011, 10:38 PM
2005 X-star MCX with approx 175 hours

Last summer my boat ran great UNTIL I got down to 1/4 tank then it would die.

Back to the dock to fill up, ran great again until 1/4 tank and died again.

Remove the module, replaced the filter and ran great once again. I can fill the old filter with gas (holding it like a bowl) and the gas does not pass through the filter material. I believe the filter was my whole problem, so I would recommend changing it at least every 2 years.

Did I overheat the pump and shorten its life? Maybe.....I might just change the pump this year to avoid future problems. 200+ hours on the OE pump is probably all I'm going to get out of it. And I hate getting towed in.

Does anyone know if a new replacement module is better quality than they were back in 2005?

vision
02-17-2011, 10:54 PM
Does anyone know if a new replacement module is better quality than they were back in 2005?

I do not know. But, My 2005 went through 2 fuel pumps over 600 hours. My 2008 has 450 hours on original pump and filter. So I am hoping that maybe by 2008 the design improved? Probably fail on the next outing now that I posted this...

vision
05-26-2012, 10:55 PM
First, thanks again to Boofer and everyone who contributed to this thread. I was able to replace my fuel pump in about 60 minutes and get back out on the water.

Second, I answered my original question as to whether the pump improved in 2008. The 2008 fuel pump still sucks and looked identical to the one in my 2005. I have never let my gas go below 1/3 of a tank but the pump died yesterday. Oh well, at least I made it to 500 hours.

Jerseydave
05-27-2012, 01:01 AM
450 hours on the original fuel filter? That may be the reason for your shorter pump life?
I was told the fuel filter should be changed every 2 years, or more often in areas with no layup time (florida) where the boat gets more use annually.

Sorry to hear you jinxed yourself 3 months ago with that post.
These fuel pumps just don't seem to be tough enough, but then again other boat builders are most likely having pump issues too.

Millertime
09-02-2013, 03:10 PM
Hoping for some help. Just this past Saturday we had our boat out (2008 X2 350MCX), and after about 30min of normal operation as I idled down the engine died. After that it would not fire. I let it sit for about 10min and it would fire for about 1sec then die again. We have about 235hours and I am assuming its the fuel pump? I called the dealer and wont be able to get it in till first week in October. So thinking of tackling this myself, I have been reading the threads for about 3 hours now and have a few questions before I go and buy a new fuel pump module.
Can I test the fuel pump without a fuel pressure gauge?
My boat is out of water now can I test the pump without starting the engine?
Thanks in advance.

JimN
09-02-2013, 05:31 PM
Hoping for some help. Just this past Saturday we had our boat out (2008 X2 350MCX), and after about 30min of normal operation as I idled down the engine died. After that it would not fire. I let it sit for about 10min and it would fire for about 1sec then die again. We have about 235hours and I am assuming its the fuel pump? I called the dealer and wont be able to get it in till first week in October. So thinking of tackling this myself, I have been reading the threads for about 3 hours now and have a few questions before I go and buy a new fuel pump module.
Can I test the fuel pump without a fuel pressure gauge?
My boat is out of water now can I test the pump without starting the engine?
Thanks in advance.

You need a gauge and can't do a valid test without it. It also needs to be on the water, not on the trailer.

Millertime
09-02-2013, 05:52 PM
Thanks JimN. I will get a gauge. Can I test with boat on trailer, (5gallon pail and garden hose)? It would be quite a trip to get to water. When should I watch for a reading on the gauge? Key on, but not starting. Key turned and trying to start?

JimN
09-02-2013, 06:02 PM
Thanks JimN. I will get a gauge. Can I test with boat on trailer, (5gallon pail and garden hose)? It would be quite a trip to get to water. When should I watch for a reading on the gauge? Key on, but not starting. Key turned and trying to start?

If you listen carefully when the key is turned to ON, you should hear a few clicks. That's the System, Ignition, and Fuel Pump relays. Put your fingers on the Fuel pump relay and feel for a click when the key is turned on, then it should stop after three seconds. This is the priming sequence. If you feel nothing, insert a wire on the terminals marked 30 and 87a. If you still hear nothing, measure voltage at the pump's plug. If you see voltage and have a test light (the bulb-type, not the LED-type), make sure it lights up brightly. If not, the plug may have a problem (bad terminal(s)) or the pump is dead. Inspect the plug and receptacle for signs of melting plastic.

It needs to be under load when testing fuel pressure, but if the pump is dead, that's a moot point.

Make sure the check valve is replaced along with the pump.