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SoCalBrew
04-15-2008, 11:22 AM
I just found out that all gas pumps in california are required to have ethanol in them - at least out here in Southern California any. There is an article in today's LA times that talks about boat owners having their fiberglass gas tanks eaten through by the Ethanol.

Does anyone know about this? And how it relates to our MC's?

Here is the article link: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-boat15apr15,0,2271802.story

Tom

Upper Michigan Prostar190
04-15-2008, 11:27 AM
I teak oil my gas tank, so I am protected. I have nothing to worry about.

SoCalBrew
04-15-2008, 11:28 AM
I teak oil my gas tank, so I am protected. I have nothing to worry about.

Teak Oil? Is that a serious response? Never heard of it...

Sodar
04-15-2008, 11:30 AM
All new model tanks are not fiberglass, so there is not an issue. To be honest I have seen very few fiberglass tanks. The article is correct though, the ethonal can soften and weaken the tanks.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
04-15-2008, 11:33 AM
Teak Oil? Is that a serious response? Never heard of it...

There is someone you should talk to.

Sodar
04-15-2008, 11:35 AM
There is someone you should talk to.

I think YOU need to talk to someone!

SoCalBrew
04-15-2008, 11:35 AM
All new model tanks are not fiberglass, so there is not an issue. To be honest I have seen very few fiberglass tanks. The article is correct though, the ethonal can soften and weaken the tanks.


That is a relief to hear about the new MC's... my older one (1990 Pro Star) may be susceptible though... Curious if by just using a stabilizer, I would minimize the "softening" effects?

Sodar
04-15-2008, 11:39 AM
That is a relief to hear about the new MC's... my older one (1990 Pro Star) may be susceptible though... Curious if by just using a stabilizer, I would minimize the "softening" effects?

Chances are you are safe with that boat too. In 90, I am sure they use either aluminum or spun poly. You can take a quick peak for releif.

The only fiberglass tank I have seen recently was in a 1979 Boston Whaler.... maybe 70's era boats used fiberglass? :confused:

SoCalBrew
04-15-2008, 11:40 AM
There is someone you should talk to.

Hi UMP, I appreciate all input... but, I get the sense that what you are posting may not be helpful in this case.

I actually... genuinely am concerned about this issue, since I live in California, and have two MC's, an '06 X-15 and a '90 PS190.

If you have a solution, or opinion about my situation that is truly helpful - or with good intentions, I really appreciate it. However, if your intentions are simply make light of the situation, or bring humor to this forum, I would appreciate it if you do it in another thread.

Thank you - Tom

TMCNo1
04-15-2008, 11:41 AM
I just found out that all gas pumps in california are required to have ethanol in them - at least out here in Southern California any. There is an article in today's LA times that talks about boat owners having their fiberglass gas tanks eaten through by the Ethanol.

Does anyone know about this? And how it relates to our MC's?

Here is the article link: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-boat15apr15,0,2271802.story

Tom

This should get interesting by the report. Please keep us up to date on the situation.

SoCalBrew
04-15-2008, 11:43 AM
Chances are you are safe with that boat too. In 90, I am sure they use either aluminum or spun poly. You can take a quick peak for releif.

The only fiberglass tank I have seen recently was in a 1979 Boston Whaler.... maybe 70's era boats used fiberglass? :confused:

I just peaked into it... it looks about as plastic as you can get... assuming that is what you mean by poly? It is white, and somewhat (only very slightly) transparent.

I appreciate your input.

Tom

Sodar
04-15-2008, 11:44 AM
I just peaked into it... it looks about as plastic as you can get... assuming that is what you mean by poly? It is white, and somewhat (only very slightly) transparent.

I appreciate your input.

Tom

PM at ya Tom! I gots some questions for ya on another topic!

SoCalBrew
04-15-2008, 11:45 AM
This should get interesting by the report. Please keep us up to date on the situation.

I am checking in with my local dealer as well (Champion) to see if there have been ANY repercussions at all. I would hope that they would be aware.

coz
04-15-2008, 11:45 AM
I just found out that all gas pumps in california are required to have ethanol in them - at least out here in Southern California any. There is an article in today's LA times that talks about boat owners having their fiberglass gas tanks eaten through by the Ethanol.

Does anyone know about this? And how it relates to our MC's?

Here is the article link: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-boat15apr15,0,2271802.story

Tom

One more way for cali to rape it's residents :rolleyes: get out while you still can. :D

SoCalBrew
04-15-2008, 11:58 AM
One more way for cali to rape it's residents :rolleyes: get out while you still can. :D

Ha!!! totally agreed! Just bought another house in another state... and I'd be lying if I said these types of issues had nothing to do with it!!!

Tom

SoCalBrew
04-15-2008, 12:01 PM
One more way for cali to rape it's residents :rolleyes: get out while you still can. :D

Take it you are out here too??

coz
04-15-2008, 12:01 PM
Ha!!! totally agreed! Just bought another house in another state... and I'd be lying if I said these types of issues had nothing to do with it!!!

Tom

Congrats on the new place Tom, I left Cali for Arizona in 2006 and it was one of the best things I've ever done. :D

SkiDog
04-15-2008, 12:12 PM
PM at ya Tom! I gots some questions for ya on another topic!

Oh hell, Sodar ModMan is at it again!:D

bigmac
04-15-2008, 12:13 PM
In Minnesota, all on-road vehicles have to use E10 too, so that's about all that's available at the pumps anymore. Some stations still sell non-oxygenated premium at the pump for boats and motorcycles only, but that's getting more rare. I fuel my boat from my own storage tank, which is kept full by a local oil company that delivers non-oxygenated premium directly to me every few weeks. I've been expecting a call from those guys any time to tell me that they aren't going to carry 91 octane no-ethanol fuel any more, but so far it hasn't happened, and they just told me they'll be stocking it for this summer, at least.

Not that I have any particular worries about using E10 in my boat - it's just that as long as they're delivering it to me, they might as well deliver non-oxygenated premium.

east tx skier
04-15-2008, 12:16 PM
One other concern with ethanol is water in your fuel attracted by the ethanol. For longer layups in humid environments, a drying agent might be worth considering.

SoCalBrew
04-15-2008, 12:27 PM
One other concern with ethanol is water in your fuel attracted by the ethanol. For longer layups in humid environments, a drying agent might be worth considering.

Yah, that is a big concern... was told that if I had to store a boat for over a month, that I needed to put a fuel stabilizer in.

bigmac
04-15-2008, 01:00 PM
One other concern with ethanol is water in your fuel attracted by the ethanol. For longer layups in humid environments, a drying agent might be worth considering.Ethanol's hygroscopic tendencies are offset in large part by its significantly increased ability to keep that water in suspension. Phase separation, which is the danger of water in fuel, is FAR more likely to occur with gasoline alone, given the same amount of water.

Bottom line - it's pretty much a wash. Alcohol attracts water a fair amount but holds a lot of it in suspension. Gasoline doesn't attract water as much, but can't keep nearly as much of it in suspension.

bigmac
04-15-2008, 01:03 PM
Yah, that is a big concern... was told that if I had to store a boat for over a month, that I needed to put a fuel stabilizer in.That's not really related to water in fuel, it's related to the relatively rapid oxidation of gasoline. Gas stabilizers are primarily anti-oxidants.

Maristar210
04-15-2008, 01:12 PM
Hi UMP, I appreciate all input... but, I get the sense that what you are posting may not be helpful in this case.

I actually... genuinely am concerned about this issue, since I live in California, and have two MC's, an '06 X-15 and a '90 PS190.

If you have a solution, or opinion about my situation that is truly helpful - or with good intentions, I really appreciate it. However, if your intentions are simply make light of the situation, or bring humor to this forum, I would appreciate it if you do it in another thread.

Thank you - Tom


Perhaps you should read your own tag line sir. Who the hell do you think you are telling someone they cannot post in your thread. Gimme a break. Oh wait your from commifornia, that explains it :rolleyes:

Jesus_Freak
04-15-2008, 01:22 PM
Ethanol's hygroscopic tendencies are offset in large part by its significantly increased ability to keep that water in suspension. Phase separation, which is the danger of water in fuel, is FAR more likely to occur with gasoline alone, given the same amount of water.

Bottom line - it's pretty much a wash. Alcohol attracts water a fair amount but holds a lot of it in suspension. Gasoline doesn't attract water as much, but can't keep nearly as much of it in suspension.

Great points as always. Thanks. However, I think we are looking for "soluble" here and not "in suspension". The polarity of the ethanol, along with the H-bonding of the water, work together to make the water miscible on a molecular level. "In suspension" implies that the water agglomerates into droplets, and due to ethanol's viscosity, it is held there against the force of gravity. The former is the more accurate picture. Same result (better mixed/less phase separation), but a different fundamental reason.

Gonzo
04-15-2008, 01:32 PM
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

SoCalBrew
04-15-2008, 01:42 PM
Perhaps you should read your own tag line sir. Who the hell do you think you are telling someone they cannot post in your thread. Gimme a break. Oh wait your from commifornia, that explains it :rolleyes:


I would have to say that calling someone a name such as... commifornia, would be more closed minded then simply asking someone to refraining from posting off-topic comments in a particular thread that I started. Who do I think I am... no one important, just someone looking for a little insight to a specific problem I was concerned about. I also was the person that started this thread, and I politely asked if we could keep this on-topic. Nothing more, nothing less. Give you a break? Ok... can you provide some insight that would be helpful?

SoCalBrew
04-15-2008, 01:45 PM
Great points as always. Thanks. However, I think we are looking for "soluble" here and not "in suspension". The polarity of the ethanol, along with the H-bonding of the water, work together to make the water miscible on a molecular level. "In suspension" implies that the water agglomerates into droplets, and due to ethanol's viscosity, it is held there against the force of gravity. The former is the more accurate picture. Same result (better mixed/less phase separation), but a different fundamental reason.


In the end, is Ethonal adversely effecting the operation of our engines? Or is it simply a storage/duration issue. I know that MTBE had a negative impact on the environment, but, it also did not seem to have the storage/duration issues.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
04-15-2008, 01:56 PM
Perhaps you should read your own tag line sir. Who the hell do you think you are telling someone they cannot post in your thread. Gimme a break. Oh wait your from commifornia, that explains it :rolleyes:

UH-OH..........

Sodar
04-15-2008, 02:00 PM
Easy Boys! No need to get all worked up here!

Perhaps UMP can refrain from threadjacking a thread until at LEAST 1 reply has been made! :rolleyes:

wakeX2wake
04-15-2008, 02:16 PM
i would imagine that ethanol has a significantly different combustion heats and expansion factors which would concern me that it would in fact cause undue wear on an engine... kind of like how you're not suppsed to change oil types or grades of gasoline... seems like when you did get a dose of ethanol in there w/ the ethane your combustion temp would change causing an amount of added heat stress to the engine, seals, etc... wether or not the difference is measurable i don't know... but it doesn't surprise me that Cali is trying to be the first to do this on the "go green" bandwagon even if it does mean increased expense to the environment from having to create more replacement engine parts

6ballsisall
04-15-2008, 02:21 PM
I was wondering if anyone knew what Hoosier Bob was drinking? Lakey and UMP wanted to know.........

jraben8
04-15-2008, 02:29 PM
I did hear from a neighbor in the fuel business that ethanol was really bad for all of the seals in engines. To the point that he has seen cases where 6 months of it sitting int the motor for it to ruin lawnmower and trimmer motors. Granted ours are aren't the same but I do notice more of a smell in the boat now after this winter than I had in previous years since it hasn't been aired out in a while.

east tx skier
04-15-2008, 02:30 PM
That's not really related to water in fuel, it's related to the relatively rapid oxidation of gasoline. Gas stabilizers are primarily anti-oxidants.

There is now a marine version of Sta-Bil that is geared toward dealing with the ethanol issues. Haven't used it myself yet, but possibly worth a look.

peason
04-15-2008, 02:31 PM
I too live in Minnesota and use 10% ethanol blend in my 2002 - 209. According to wha I have read it should not be a problem. However, when I store the boat over the winter I fill it with a non-oxygenated gas that does not have ethanol. As BigMac said it is getting hard to find this fuel in Minnesota -which like California is on the bandwagon and loves ethanol. We have a lot of ethanol plants in this state and from what I can tell we are the leader in offering 85% ethanol blends to the public with most gas stations that offer E85.

snork
04-15-2008, 02:52 PM
Does President Bush have a big interest in corn now :confused:

wakeX2wake
04-15-2008, 02:59 PM
the governator schwarzenegger does now i hear

M-Funf
04-15-2008, 03:02 PM
get out while you still can. :D

You first...If I'm not there in 5, go ahead without me...:rolleyes:

jbfootin
04-15-2008, 03:05 PM
In WI it is hard to find gas with out ethanol also. It is not just a cali thing. I know in cars the milage drops slightly, and the up side is it is cheaper....which at $3.40/gal is hard to believe we are seeing the $ benifit...:mad:

Most tanks since the early 80s are roto-molded tanks. Should be save.

loeweb
04-15-2008, 03:24 PM
I teak oil my gas tank, so I am protected. I have nothing to worry about.

I thought teak oil was supposed to be used on the fiberglass swim deck, not in the gas tank silly:D :D :D

Maristar210
04-15-2008, 03:34 PM
I would have to say that calling someone a name such as... commifornia, would be more closed minded then simply asking someone to refraining from posting off-topic comments in a particular thread that I started. Who do I think I am... no one important, just someone looking for a little insight to a specific problem I was concerned about. I also was the person that started this thread, and I politely asked if we could keep this on-topic. Nothing more, nothing less. Give you a break? Ok... can you provide some insight that would be helpful?

Every thread in here gets threadjacked. It is going to happen whether you like it or not. Your response does nothing more than add fuel to the fire and portrays you as arrogant.

To answer your question: No, I don't think Ethanol is killing our boats.
I think it's a question you already know the answer to...:rolleyes:

bigmac
04-15-2008, 03:58 PM
Great points as always. Thanks. However, I think we are looking for "soluble" here and not "in suspension". The polarity of the ethanol, along with the H-bonding of the water, work together to make the water miscible on a molecular level. "In suspension" implies that the water agglomerates into droplets, and due to ethanol's viscosity, it is held there against the force of gravity. The former is the more accurate picture. Same result (better mixed/less phase separation), but a different fundamental reason.


Good point, and I agree.

bigmac
04-15-2008, 04:07 PM
In the end, is Ethonal adversely effecting the operation of our engines? Or is it simply a storage/duration issue. I know that MTBE had a negative impact on the environment, but, it also did not seem to have the storage/duration issues.In the end...no. The two big problems with ethanol have traditionally been its detergent properties and its solvent properties. In the early days of "gasohol" there were a lot of problems as a)ethanol dissolved some fuel system components and b)scrubbed dirt and debris from the fuel tanks.

As ethanol in gasoline became more common, vehicle manufacturers changed those components to matierials that are resistant to the solvent action of ethanol. Additionally, as new vehicles entered the market, vehicles that had never been run on anything except ethanol, they had no accumulated dirt or crud in the fuel system to be scrubbed.

Bottom line, your boat, certainly your 06 and almost certainly your 92, will do just fine with E10. I wouldn't go any higher than that, however.

Chas
04-15-2008, 04:15 PM
Bottom line, your boat,... will do just fine with E10. I wouldn't go any higher than that, however.

What if there becomes no other choice? Would you then need to upgrade seals and hoses, and perhaps clean out the tank? Do you think a few years of E10 would clean the tank enough that no other gunk gets loose if they go to a higher percentage?

How about adding an extra filter in line - perhaps one with a spin-on element that could be changed on the lake?

I'm asking because I live in CA and foresee the percentage climbing over the coming years. This state seems to delight in doing things which take all the joy out of owning older cars/boat or other fun things.

I do own an older S&S with an updated 351, but I don't know how new it is and I worry that it might not do well with higher than 10% white ligtnin' in it's tank.

Input?

bigmac
04-15-2008, 05:14 PM
What if there becomes no other choice? Would you then need to upgrade seals and hoses, and perhaps clean out the tank? Do you think a few years of E10 would clean the tank enough that no other gunk gets loose if they go to a higher percentage?

How about adding an extra filter in line - perhaps one with a spin-on element that could be changed on the lake?

I'm asking because I live in CA and foresee the percentage climbing over the coming years. This state seems to delight in doing things which take all the joy out of owning older cars/boat or other fun things.

I do own an older S&S with an updated 351, but I don't know how new it is and I worry that it might not do well with higher than 10% white ligtnin' in it's tank.

Input? Once the tank is clean, it's clean. Going from E10 to E15 (or whatever California decides) won't make and difference relative to crap in the fuel system - there wont' be any. The concept is illustrated by today's dual-fuel vehicles, which can switch from E10 to E85 without any such problem

I don't know about hoses and seals on legacy boats. My guess is the materials used these days are basically resistant to alcohol as a solvent, and the concentration of alcohol doesn't really matter.

wakeX2wake
04-15-2008, 05:25 PM
to me it sounds like everything would have to be retrofitted... b/c what it sounds like right now is they're selling you a mixed fuel... which means that will shorten the life of a normal engine... sounds like somebody took some major bucks to get that "green" movement approved... sorry i find it a little hard to swallow that humans (who only INHABIT not cover w/ their cars or factories... i'm talking areas covered by cities, towns, and communities is roughly 1/8th OF THE EARTH'S ENTIRE SURFACE!!!!!!!) can change the climate of the ENTIRE WORLD... sorry don't buy it... my theory is... if we had an "ice age" why can't we have a "hot-as-hell age"?... going green is the new sexy thing to do though

wakeX2wake
04-15-2008, 05:25 PM
^^^^^ i totally jumped up on my soapbox just then and didn't mean to

jbfootin
04-15-2008, 05:48 PM
if we had an "ice age" why can't we have a "hot-as-hell age"?...
I really like this theory...it may even help us add to the swim suit thread:D

bkblaida
04-15-2008, 07:38 PM
We have 3 auto's and the MC. Over the years (from 1997 to present) All have gone back and forth from regular gas to gas with alcohol. All 3 vehicles have over 90,000 miles and the MC has betwen 400-500 hours. No adverse affect and we plan to drive them for several more years. From the early 90's fittings, seals etc have been engineered to handle alternative fuels. This is not an issue to lose sleep over.

Converting our food to fuel is worth losing sleep over.

johkur
04-15-2008, 08:18 PM
A few main impacts of ethanol:
1) Some very old tanks will have their resin 'melt' from the ethanol, you get a tar in your engine, and its a mess. Ethanol has been in the gas for a while now though, so I think you'd know if you have a susceptible tank by now.
2) Before ethanol was used, MTBE was used. MTBE was water soluble though, and so although it was good for reducing air pollution, rain or using it near water caused it to be absorbed in the water and it is a carcinogen. But if you mix MTBE gas and ethanol gas and leave it in your tank, it produces water. People in Long Island were the first wave of people that winterized their boats without realizing they had a mix of MTBE and ethanol gas, and the time plus the mixture was a disaster about 3 years ago. Use up all your MTBE gas before filling with ethanol gas. And keep your tank filled with ethanol gas versus leaving alot of air in the tank, especially when storing the boat.
3) Ethanol gas loses its octane quicker than MTBE gas did. So if you need 91, buy 93, etc, if you want to avoid having too low an octane after storing or not using the gas for a while.

Good info at boatus if you google boatus ethanol MTBE, hits such as http://my.boatus.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=56486&PN=1

johkur
04-15-2008, 08:19 PM
A few main impacts of ethanol:
1) Some very old tanks will have their resin 'melt' from the ethanol, you get a tar in your engine, and its a mess. Ethanol has been in the gas for a while now though, so I think you'd know if you have a susceptible tank by now.
2) Before ethanol was used, MTBE was used. MTBE was water soluble though, and so although it was good for reducing air pollution, rain or using it near water caused it to be absorbed in the water and it is a carcinogen. But if you mix MTBE gas and ethanol gas and leave it in your tank, it produces water. People in Long Island were the first wave of people that winterized their boats without realizing they had a mix of MTBE and ethanol gas, and the time plus the mixture was a disaster about 3 years ago. Use up all your MTBE gas before filling with ethanol gas. And keep your tank filled with ethanol gas versus leaving alot of air in the tank, especially when storing the boat.
3) Ethanol gas loses its octane quicker than MTBE gas did. So if you need 91, buy 93, etc, if you want to avoid having too low an octane after storing or not using the gas for a while.

Good info at boatus if you google boatus ethanol MTBE, hits such as http://my.boatus.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=56486&PN=1

johkur
04-15-2008, 08:19 PM
<duplicate post>

johkur
04-15-2008, 08:19 PM
<duplicate post>

bigmac
04-15-2008, 09:22 PM
A few main impacts of ethanol:
1) Some very old tanks will have their resin 'melt' from the ethanol, you get a tar in your engine, and its a mess. Ethanol has been in the gas for a while now though, so I think you'd know if you have a susceptible tank by now.
2) Before ethanol was used, MTBE was used. MTBE was water soluble though, and so although it was good for reducing air pollution, rain or using it near water caused it to be absorbed in the water and it is a carcinogen. But if you mix MTBE gas and ethanol gas and leave it in your tank, it produces water. People in Long Island were the first wave of people that winterized their boats without realizing they had a mix of MTBE and ethanol gas, and the time plus the mixture was a disaster about 3 years ago. Use up all your MTBE gas before filling with ethanol gas. And keep your tank filled with ethanol gas versus leaving alot of air in the tank, especially when storing the boat.
3) Ethanol gas loses its octane quicker than MTBE gas did. So if you need 91, buy 93, etc, if you want to avoid having too low an octane after storing or not using the gas for a while.

Good info at boatus if you google boatus ethanol MTBE, hits such as http://my.boatus.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=56486&PN=1

You really know how to make a point!


/

TX.X-30 fan
04-15-2008, 09:39 PM
Converting our food to fuel is worth losing sleep over.




Best post in the thread!


sOcAlbReW Please don't consider this post an affront to your thread superiority, No offence was intended. :o

Chas
04-15-2008, 10:04 PM
Now, if we want to discuss the relative costs of alternative fuels and fuel additives, we could 'jack this thread for pages.

Right now, grain-derived fuels, even bio diesel fuels are far more expensive to produce. Set the cost aside for a moment - they create more bad fumes and emissions to produce than they save by being used. Even the electric cars on our roads today create more deadly emissions in the creation and transmission of the power used to charge the batteries they carry. And those batteries in most cases are made of highly toxic substances which require very careful and expensive recycling at the end of their very limited life cycle. Add up all the costs, and the net is very expensive. Add up all the emissions and the net is an eco-disaster.

I say stick with fossil fuels, find the best way to wring every HP out of each ounce of fuel, and let's focus on things which actually have a hope of producing some change in the world.

Or not.

Lennyp04
04-15-2008, 10:23 PM
I have a question. Is it so bad to buy the same octane gas that's on the lake but buy it at a gas stationon land and save nearly a dollar a gallon.

Is that so bad?

loeweb
04-15-2008, 10:49 PM
I have a question. Is it so bad to buy the same octane gas that's on the lake but buy it at a gas stationon land and save nearly a dollar a gallon.

Is that so bad?

That would depend on who it is BAD for. BAD for consumer yes. BAD for lake station NO!

Lennyp04
04-15-2008, 10:51 PM
Bad for gas tank/motor?

bigmac
04-16-2008, 08:54 AM
I have a question. Is it so bad to buy the same octane gas that's on the lake but buy it at a gas stationon land and save nearly a dollar a gallon.

Is that so bad?


The main reasons marina gas usually costs more than gas station gas are usually related to smaller quantities delivered, supply and demand, higher costs (usually no self-serve option), local fees and taxes that are often imposed on marinas because they are in a more sensitive environment (on the water).

bigmac
04-16-2008, 08:55 AM
Bad for gas tank/motor?
Not in modern marine engines. Indmar states that 10% ethanol fuel is OK to use in engines since at least 1994.


/

jbfootin
04-16-2008, 09:43 AM
Converting our food to fuel is worth losing sleep over.
I remember seeing an article which stated that they can make ethanol from any organic waste. It does not have to be corn. It could be things such as orange peels, bean vines etc. that is a waste product of food processing plants making OJ or canned vegies. Also stated how cheap it is to produce. They are "market pricing" and making a killing now. They should have an ethanol plant by every canning factory in my opinion.

JimN
04-16-2008, 10:56 AM
Sure, it's possible to make ethanol from a lot of things, but it's not necessarily practical. Even using corn is a bad way to make it and we'll be seeing a lot of high prices on things we wouldn't normally think should be affected by ramped up ethanol production. Ranchers are killing their cattle because of increased feed costs, cheaper corn is being planted for sale to ethanol instead of human consumption, be it for sweet corn or all of the high fructose corn syrup that sweetens just about every food item in this country.

Brazil has become independent of outside oil sources because they make ethanol from switch grass and sugar cane, both of which are better choices as ethanol sources. The way the US is doing it, more BTU are required to make it than it yields as a fuel.

Our problem is that physics is on the side of the US motto- 'Bigger is better'. Being in a tiny car is much more hazardous than being in a large one when involved in a collision. OTOH, a small vehicle is more nimble and could potentially avoid a crash if the driver isn't eating lunch, burning a grit and texting on their cell phone, all at the same time.

bigmac
04-16-2008, 11:51 AM
Can someone tell me how to replace the impeller in my boat?

Likely, yes. However, in the interest of not confusing UMP, I'd recommend you post this as a separate new thread. Alternatively, a search here on this forum, probably best using the keyword "impeller" will likely provide you with the answers to your question not covered in your owner's manual and in the Team Talk FAQ.

I'd also suggest that answering your question would be facilitated by knowing what kind of boat your have.

Maristar210
04-16-2008, 11:53 AM
Likely, yes. However, in the interest of not confusing UMP, I'd recommend you post this as a separate new thread. Alternatively, a search here on this forum, probably best using the keyword "impeller" will likely provide you with the answers to your question not covered in your owner's manual and in the Team Talk FAQ.

I'd also suggest that answering your question would be facilitated by knowing what kind of boat your have.


BigMac is on his game today, as usual.

Jeffie???

pkskier
04-16-2008, 11:58 AM
I don't know how other states work but in Texas it is the 5 major metro areas and their ajoining counties that have gas with ethanol and in the rest of the state it is regular gas. In the DFW area you are talking about Dallas, Tarrant, Collin, Denton, Parker, Johnson, Ellis, Kaufman and Rockwall counties. Outside of those counties there should be no ethanol. As far as the gas tank is concerned my '87 has a plastic tank so the '90 should be safe.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
04-16-2008, 12:34 PM
BigMac is on his game today, as usual.

Jeffie???
I heard Jeff was getting a new bote......but I'm not sure. :confused:

east tx skier
04-16-2008, 12:47 PM
I don't know how other states work but in Texas it is the 5 major metro areas and their ajoining counties that have gas with ethanol and in the rest of the state it is regular gas. In the DFW area you are talking about Dallas, Tarrant, Collin, Denton, Parker, Johnson, Ellis, Kaufman and Rockwall counties. Outside of those counties there should be no ethanol. As far as the gas tank is concerned my '87 has a plastic tank so the '90 should be safe.

I can speak for my non metro adjacent Texas county. There's 10% ethanol everywhere here. Started seeing the stickers around January.

Jesus_Freak
04-16-2008, 01:07 PM
....sorry i find it a little hard to swallow that humans (who only INHABIT not cover w/ their cars or factories... i'm talking areas covered by cities, towns, and communities is roughly 1/8th OF THE EARTH'S ENTIRE SURFACE!!!!!!!) can change the climate of the ENTIRE WORLD... sorry don't buy it...

Agreed. There are at least three factors that play a stronger role than our measly human existence: solar wind cycles (caused by circulatory shifts in sun's boiling/burning gases, aka magnetohydrodynamics), earth's internal magna circulatory patterns (somewhat similar to what is happening in the sun), and the most prevalent greenhouse gas of them all....ready....water vapor. We influence none of these. I am afraid we think too highly of ourselves...

JimN
04-16-2008, 02:43 PM
I think we need to watch our step, just on principal- humans are way too self-absorbed to think too far ahead. The loudest mouthes about global warming tend to want to save everything and everyone and also seen very hypocritical, to me. Calling someone from the "other" political party 'elitist' and then going to their vacation home with a gated drive, tennis courts, movie producers and actors on speed dial and designer clothes, talking about how they thing the rich should pay more taxes while avoiding them the same way everyone else does is just a case of the pot calling the kettle 'black'. Algore flies around the world making hundreds of thousands of dollars and getting everyone to drink his Kool-Aid du jour, plopping his big BS-ing carbon footprint all over the place, and then buys carbon credits from a company owned by him and/or his family.

I don't seem to hear much about the rain forests being cut down anymore. Did wailing about that go out of fashion? Must have. If we want to get rid of carbon dioxide, we need more trees. They scrub carbon from C02 (they don't actually produce 02) pretty well and if we all bring that topic back, maybe we wouldn't have so much cheap South American beef for the fast food industry but we wouldn't be such a bloated country, either.

Anyone catch the National Geo show a few nights ago, about the rising level in the oceans? Interesting points, like maybe the warm currents (Gulf Stream and others) are what really control our climate and that when we have:

High solar activity
High amounts of greenhouse gases
less snow cover,

the average temperatures rise, melting more snow and ice. This causes more evaporation and the extra water vapor precipitates wherever the conditions are right. Now, California is getting rain, when they did have long dry periods. This past winter was a bumper year for snow in many places, particularly the mountains in the US. These conveniently feed the rivers that provide water to the Desert Southwest, which should raise the water levels in the lakes. Here in MKE, we had 96" of snow, well above the 74" average. That may have an effect on the lake level here, too but now that the regional governors have made it possible for outlying areas to get water from Lake Michigan, it won't last long.

The increased snow cover increases the duration of sunlight reflection, which keeps the ground from absorbing the heat and radiating it. This lowers the temperature a bit. The polar ice caps melting lowers the average temperature of the oceans and when that cooler water mixes with the Gulf Stream, that too has less of a warming effect on the climate.

Then, we have solar activity. Historical records indicate that the global temperature follows the sun's activity. Solar wind is electromagnetic, and this has an effect on the earth's core, which contains high amounts of iron. Above a certain temperature, it's not polarized but still responds to magnetism.

Edited to add:

Blah, blah, blah.

Maybe, if we had less blowhards spewing hot air,.....

6ballsisall
04-16-2008, 03:08 PM
I heard Jeff was getting a new bote......but I'm not sure. :confused:


Yes, yes indeed.........

SoCalBrew
04-17-2008, 04:54 AM
Now, if we want to discuss the relative costs of alternative fuels and fuel additives, we could 'jack this thread for pages.

Right now, grain-derived fuels, even bio diesel fuels are far more expensive to produce. Set the cost aside for a moment - they create more bad fumes and emissions to produce than they save by being used. Even the electric cars on our roads today create more deadly emissions in the creation and transmission of the power used to charge the batteries they carry. And those batteries in most cases are made of highly toxic substances which require very careful and expensive recycling at the end of their very limited life cycle. Add up all the costs, and the net is very expensive. Add up all the emissions and the net is an eco-disaster.

I say stick with fossil fuels, find the best way to wring every HP out of each ounce of fuel, and let's focus on things which actually have a hope of producing some change in the world.

Or not.

This is a good point... the kicker with the fossil fuels is now the availability and the "other" cost factors in getting it. But, this is WAY deeper than I was originally thinking about here.

"Who Killed the Electric Car" is a really interesting documentary related to all of these issues. I highly recommend it... just as something to think about.

--

I was originally more interested in the immediate impact (on the boat and engine) of putting newer fuels, and fuel mixtures in older boats... and from the responses, I am concluding that for the most part, there isn't really any.

Thanks for all the insight.

SoCalBrew
04-17-2008, 04:59 AM
To answer your question: No, I don't think Ethanol is killing our boats.
I think it's a question you already know the answer to...

I was fairly confident that it (Ethanol) would not negatively impact my new boat ('06), but, was genuinely concerned about my older one ('90)... so, I had a feeling that a lot of people here would have a take... I appreciate your input, and yes, I have come to the same conclusion.

gigem75
04-17-2008, 08:52 AM
Just about all the gas you buy anywhere in the US has at least 10 percent ethanol in it. All it does is cause beer prices to go up.

chudson
04-17-2008, 09:17 AM
I use ethanol blend in my boat, cars, trucks, mowers, tractors and never had problems with it and my boat is an "81". As for "using corn to make fuel instead of food" corn is being dumped on the ground at grain elevators all over the midwest because there's so much corn and no storage for it. If people are starving it's because there's not enough money given to feed them not because corn is being used to make fuel!!! Then if the thought of using ethanol (home grown by American Farmers) bothers you make the effort to by your gas from oil bought from over seas, they need the money.................

Indoor ski resort in Dubai

33779
33780

sure hope he doesn't get snow up his..................whatever!!!

JimN
04-17-2008, 09:47 AM
If there's so much corn being dumped on the ground, it's because whoever is dumping it isn't trying to sell it. Even if it's not fresh, they could still use it for ethanol and I doubt that if it was well known so much corn was available, someone would buy it for the right price. That would beat wasting it.

Apparently, there's not enough communication between coops, plants for making ethanol and other agencies. Is it that nobody wants to make the first move or they just don't want to bother trying to help?

chudson
04-17-2008, 11:30 AM
The Coops are a business, if they were not trying to sell it they'd go belly-up. There's so much corn coming in out of the fields the ethanol plants have plenty of corn to produce ethanol with. If the ethanol producers does not know that so much corn is available they have fell asleep at the wheel and they'd be going belly-up too. And you tell me what the right price is for selling corn at now? And as for communication the ethanol plants are right down the road from the grain elevators if not sitting right next to them. The point I was trying to make is that it seems when ever "ethanol" is brought up it's always rumors tearing it down and I hear that food supply is going to be hurt or some guys neighor tells him his seals will dry up from using it or your fuel lines will be eaten up by ethanol, I mean come on. Like I said I have an "81" MC and have always used ethanol blended fuel and have never had any problems. It's a good product use it!!!

bigmac
04-17-2008, 11:51 AM
Over the years, I've done a lot of reading about the chemistry of ethanol production. What I've found is that the chemistry and physics of ethanol are straightforward. The politics, however, are amusing in the extreme. Both sides of the issue put out such an incredible load of horse manure on the subject that I'd suggest that it's impossible for any of us ordinary people to separate fact from fantasy on the whole issue.

Bottom line -- no matter which side of the issue you take, your opponents can bombard you with a huge volume of data that contradicts you.

JimN
04-17-2008, 11:55 AM
OK, compare the mileage on an E85 vehicle using gas and ethanol. Gas provides more than ethanol, using less fuel/mile.

http://www.uwsp.edu/cnr/wcee/keep/mod1/whatis/energyresourcetables.htm

According to this link, an ethanol plant receives $5.67 for the ethanol produced by one bushel, at a yield of 3 gal/bushel. That comes to $1.89/gal from the producer. Add the transport, wholesale and retail markups, and it really isn't that economical.

(http://www.agbioforum.missouri.edu/v10n1/v10n1a02-elobeid.htm)

While it's not a great substitute, it does stretch each gallon of gas, which helps us to not be completely reliant on foreign oil. Now that Brazil found a huge reserve, maybe we can play nice with them and have a new source. We need to learn more from them about making ethanol, anyway. They ramped up their ethanol production and are not slaves to any other nation's whims, as far as oil prices and supply.

east tx skier
04-17-2008, 11:56 AM
Just about all the gas you buy anywhere in the US has at least 10 percent ethanol in it. All it does is cause beer prices to go up.

Very true. Barley crops are giving way. Grain prices are up significantly. The hop shortage hasn't helped either. But at least that aspect is improving.

Jim, look into producing ethanol from giant salvinia. That stuff propogates quickly, is a total nuisance, and must be detroyed and burned in our cars for the cheap.

JimN
04-17-2008, 12:01 PM
"The politics, however, are amusing in the extreme"

I find it very disturbing, personally. Any party that does everything it can to shut down anything that is in the best interest of the country, based on the fact that they A) don't stand to gain prestige from it, B) are the other political party and C) stand to make more money with their way, should be hauled off.

This morning, I heard a clip of Hillary saying that she wishes the Republican party would stay home because thy messed things up so badly. Nice- she calls people 'elitist' and wants a one party government. What should we call her now, Lady Mao?

JimN
04-17-2008, 12:06 PM
Fear and greed will be the death of us all.

wakeX2wake
04-17-2008, 12:08 PM
i've said it once and i'll say it again... if Hillary doesn't have enough about her to walk away from a cheating husband she doesn't have what it takes to lead this country... she does not stand for what this country stands for and was built on... the principle that we're going to do what's in our best interest and if you mess w/ us there will be reprocutions... put hillary in the driver's seat after 9/11.. what happens?... the hurt people get socialized welfare and we all look over our shoulders for when and what's coming next?... don't go to iraq... doin't go to iraq... SHUT UP you're not worried about going into a tall building or getting on an ariplane today are you?... i'm certainly not b/c we've got the bastards on the run...
ok i'm done w/ that uncalled for outburst

wakeX2wake
04-17-2008, 12:13 PM
as far as the gas prices go... that's the beauty of the american free market economy... the money goes to the person who sells the most and people are going to go w/ the best solution... ex Blu-Ray Discs... two "equal" competitors w/ similar products the better format won out (or is winning out)... the same will go w/ fuel sources...

remember... we have the EPA to thank for most of it... we have enough oil under U.S. soil to estimated supply the entire U.S. for somewhere int he neighborhood of 1000 years (give or take a couple of hundred)... yet we're unable to tap it so until the EPA comes off of some of the wilderness in Alaska we're going to keep paying taxes on products that are priced at whatever the oil moguls in the middle east decide we will pay for it

JimN
04-17-2008, 12:15 PM
A survey recently came out that showed only 44% think she's honest. I know surveys can show whatever the surveyor wants, but regardless, that's not a good number.

She considers "the rich" as anyone who makes over $250K/yr and Obama considers that to be anyone making over $70K. Both make more than that and say they can relate to the common person. His lack of experience in government and the fact that she and Bill have made over $109M in the last 8 years (but apparently aren't rich) really bother me. He wants to change everything and wants those who have, to give some of it to those who need. That's a basic tenet of Communism.

JimN
04-17-2008, 12:24 PM
"the money goes to the person who sells the most and people are going to go w/ the best solution... ex Blu-Ray Discs... two "equal" competitors w/ similar products the better format won out (or is winning out)... the same will go w/ fuel sources..."

Blu-Ray and VHS won because of the same "market force"- the porn industry. Look at the timeline for VHS and Beta- once Big Porn stated that they were no longer using Beta, Sony made the hard decision to pull the plug, even though VHS and Beta were about equal, worldwide at the time. The best solution would have been Beta, because of the higher video quality and less stress on the tape but. VHS allowed 8 hours on one tape. Ever seen the video quality of an 8 hour VHS tape? It's terrible. For that matter, a T-120 was crap, too. At the highest speed, VHS was still worse than Beta at it's slowest speed.

The side with more money wins out, not the "best solution".

As for all of that oil under US soil- how much money/barrel will it cost to extract? If it's more than what we're paying now, it's not economically feasible. The EPA has some good points, mainly that we can't spoil the whole planet. They don't tend to be very objective, though.

bigmac
04-17-2008, 01:10 PM
OK, compare the mileage on an E85 vehicle using gas and ethanol. Gas provides more than ethanol, using less fuel/mile.

http://www.uwsp.edu/cnr/wcee/keep/mod1/whatis/energyresourcetables.htm

According to this link, an ethanol plant receives $5.67 for the ethanol produced by one bushel, at a yield of 3 gal/bushel. That comes to $1.89/gal from the producer. Add the transport, wholesale and retail markups, and it really isn't that economical.

(http://www.agbioforum.missouri.edu/v10n1/v10n1a02-elobeid.htm)

While it's not a great substitute, it does stretch each gallon of gas, which helps us to not be completely reliant on foreign oil. Now that Brazil found a huge reserve, maybe we can play nice with them and have a new source. We need to learn more from them about making ethanol, anyway. They ramped up their ethanol production and are not slaves to any other nation's whims, as far as oil prices and supply.


All fine, except IMHO the validity of those numbers is a very slippery thing, and their accuracy depends entirely on who published them. I suspect that someone willing to do the search could find a totally different set of numbers that contradict those.

Not saying' you're trying to put one over one us, but I'm pretty suspicious of the politics of the issue.

SoCalBrew
04-17-2008, 02:27 PM
Bottom line -- no matter which side of the issue you take, your opponents can bombard you with a huge volume of data that contradicts you.


This is SSSOO true. True for just about ANYTHING in life.

TMCNo1
04-17-2008, 04:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmac
Bottom line -- no matter which side of the issue you take, your opponents can bombard you with a huge volume of data that contradicts you.


And with all that is said, my cup runneth over!

gigem75
04-17-2008, 04:24 PM
I'd like to see a photo of all this extra corn going to waste. With the price at an all time high i'm not buying it.

gigem75
04-17-2008, 04:49 PM
" Hillary doesn't have enough about her to walk away from a cheating husband" OH so you mean kinda like the founding fathers who were screwing their slave women?

TMCNo1
04-17-2008, 04:59 PM
" Hillary doesn't have enough about her to walk away from a cheating husband" OH so you mean kinda like the founding fathers who were screwing their slave women?

If George Washington slept in all the beds they said he did, no wonder he's the "Father of Our Country"!!!!!!!!!!!:rolleyes: :D

SoCalBrew
04-18-2008, 12:14 AM
I'd like to see a photo of all this extra corn going to waste. With the price at an all time high i'm not buying it.

Interestingly... it is wheat that has skyrocketed in price the most.

JimN
04-21-2008, 11:50 AM
"Not saying' you're trying to put one over one us, but I'm pretty suspicious of the politics of the issue."

If the market is supposed to handle this, politics should stay out, but that can't happen if someone in a senate or congressional district stands to make a lot of money because of it and can potentially grease that senator or congressman's palm for some kind of favor.

Why would i try to put one over on anyone? I just read this stuff and when it makes sense, post it if it's pertinent. Problem is, as one of the hosts of a local morning radio show says, "90% of everything is crap" and as such, it's hard to know what's true unless direct contact with people in that industry is available. Dumping tons of grain on the ground does not sound plausible. if the price had bottomed out and it cost more to transport it than to dump it, maybe, but huge mounds of corn (or whatever) will not go unnoticed for long. With corn at such high prices, it doesn't sound like a wise move to intentionally throw that much money away.

I don't know of anyone who would turn down more for what they sell, or a pay raise. That just doesn't sound like The American Way.

Maristar210
04-21-2008, 11:55 AM
Well in that case should I buy a 1500HD DaDiesel?

6ballsisall
04-21-2008, 11:56 AM
Well in that case should I buy a 1500HD DaDiesel?


Absolutely. Pure genius thinking Mari.

JimN
04-21-2008, 11:58 AM
DaDiesel? Is that from the UP?

betsy&david Harrison
04-21-2008, 03:48 PM
We are thinking of changing our boats to BioDiesel.. all the boats on the lake... to protect the fish you know. Go Green!

6ballsisall
04-21-2008, 03:52 PM
We are thinking of changing our boats to BioDiesel.. all the boats on the lake... to protect the fish you know. Go Green!

When in California.......

betsy&david Harrison
04-21-2008, 03:54 PM
you know we lead the way in the ecology department... good ol Comi-Cali's.. I love it here

Ric
04-21-2008, 06:22 PM
Well in that case should I buy a 1500HD DaDiesel? you can't get a 1500HD diesel. Silly Mary.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
04-21-2008, 06:33 PM
you cant get a 1500HD at all.

Maristar210
04-21-2008, 09:24 PM
Silly Rabitt the HD hasn't been offered since early '07 and never with a Do-Clack-Clak Diselieel

Cloaked
04-21-2008, 10:02 PM
you cant get a 1500HD at all.



Skinny has one. :D

Upper Michigan Prostar190
04-21-2008, 10:21 PM
Maybe he can sell it to Ric. :confused:

johkur
04-30-2008, 06:48 PM
There is now a lawsuit, possibly a class action lawsuit, against the oil companies that were selling ethanol without clear warning that it eats older fiberglass resins and can ultimately damage engines, etc.
http://www.boattest.com/Resources/view_news.aspx?NewsID=895
I am only posting this because the thread is about ethanol damage, it may not have any relevance to Mastercrafts at all, but like the article mentions, if you have an older boat and are wondering, boat manufacturers should be able to qualify their resins and tanks for you to let you know if you might have an issue or not.

TonyB
04-30-2008, 07:10 PM
Perhaps you should read your own tag line sir. Who the hell do you think you are telling someone they cannot post in your thread. Gimme a break. Oh wait your from commifornia, that explains it :rolleyes:

Please don't take this the wrong way, but...Did somebody drop a turd in your punch bowl?

While guilty of having posted a flippant response or two, I generally try to wait until there have been a good number of genuine posts. Perhaps he is unaware of UMP's legacy here.

And if I read it correctly, it was a request.

Have a nice day.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
04-30-2008, 08:52 PM
I am like Kent Dorfman.

Maristar210
05-01-2008, 08:49 AM
Please don't take this the wrong way, but...Did somebody drop a turd in your punch bowl?

While guilty of having posted a flippant response or two, I generally try to wait until there have been a good number of genuine posts. Perhaps he is unaware of UMP's legacy here.

And if I read it correctly, it was a request.

Have a nice day.


I hear ya. and aaaahh No, they did not.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
05-01-2008, 08:58 AM
I gaurd my ethanol.

pilot02
05-01-2008, 09:35 AM
Not sure if others are having problems but I can say that my local BP station has been going through h_ll this past week since they forced ethanol into the mid and premium grades.. The filters on his pumps are clogging up and having to be changed multiple times a day. The station itself has been around a while so it could be fuel lines from the tanks deteriorating as a result of the ethanol mix but sure makes you wonder....

bigmac
05-01-2008, 10:01 AM
Not sure if others are having problems but I can say that my local BP station has been going through h_ll this past week since they forced ethanol into the mid and premium grades.. The filters on his pumps are clogging up and having to be changed multiple times a day. The station itself has been around a while so it could be fuel lines from the tanks deteriorating as a result of the ethanol mix but sure makes you wonder....


This is common when gas stations switch over to ethanol-containing gasoline. Ethanol will act as a solvent and detergent and scrub up a lot of gunk that's been sitting in the tank, thereby clogging the pump filters. It won't be an ongoing problem for them because eventually the tanks will be scrubbed clean, but there definitely can be problems in the short run.

Personally, I wouldn't buy my gas from a station that's having those kinds of changeover problems. Some of that crap, and maybe some phase-separated water, may very well end up in YOUR gas tank.

Maristar210
05-01-2008, 10:24 AM
This is common when gas stations switch over to ethanol-containing gasoline. Ethanol will act as a solvent and detergent and scrub up a lot of gunk that's been sitting in the tank, thereby clogging the pump filters. It won't be an ongoing problem for them because eventually the tanks will be scrubbed clean, but there definitely can be problems in the short run.

Personally, I wouldn't buy my gas from a station that's having those kinds of changeover problems. Some of that crap, and maybe some phase-separated water, may very well end up in YOUR gas tank.


Interesting - I never knew...

bigmac
05-01-2008, 10:59 AM
This is interesting....


Iowa lawmaker says hiding ethanol content would help sales


The Associated Press - 02/15/2008


DES MOINES, Iowa -- An Iowa legislative leader has an idea for increasing use of ethanol -- don't tell motorists they're buying it.

Senate President Jack Kibbie said a bill he introduced would improve sales by allowing stations to remove labels showing the fuel contains ethanol.

The change would apply only to E10, which includes 10 percent ethanol. Stations would decide whether to remove the E10 stickers.

Kibbie, D-Emmetsburg, said E10 accounts for 73 percent of gasoline sales in Iowa, and that percentage hasn't changed in the past few years. If motorists weren't told of the ethanol content, Kibbie said more out-of-state drivers would buy the fuel.

He said Kansas made a similar change and ethanol sales increased.

"Sometimes, people driving through Iowa on the interstates, who don't know as much about ethanol as we do, see those stickers and say, 'I don't want any of that stuff!' So they put in high octane fuel that costs 10 cents a gallon more," Kibbie said.

Kibbie's proposal has been approved by a Senate committee, but industry representatives didn't seems as supportive.

Dawn Carlson, president of Petroleum Marketers and Convenience Stores of Iowa, predicted that most of the 1,500 retailers in the group would keep the stickers.

"We're not sure why (Kibbie) is doing this. We didn't ask for it," Carlson said. "We think it will confuse consumers. People have a right to know what they are buying. For whatever reason, 25 percent of consumers are choosing not to buy ethanol, even if it means paying a dime more a gallon for 87 octane."

Even if Kibbie's proposal becomes law, Tara Deering-Hansen, a spokeswoman for Kum & Go convenience stores, said the chain would leave the stickers on.

"We believe our customers want to know this information," Deering-Hansen said.

The attorney general's office hasn't taken a position on the bill, said Bill Brauch, director of the agency's consumer protection division.

Brauch noted, however, that some older cars and high-performance vehicles shouldn't burn ethanol. He said his office would tell motorists with such vehicles to buy fuel only at stations that retain the labels or to inquire with station employees.

Monte Shaw, executive director of the Iowa Renewable Fuels Association, said his group isn't pushing for the law but that some members support the change.

SoCalBrew
05-01-2008, 01:13 PM
This is common when gas stations switch over to ethanol-containing gasoline. Ethanol will act as a solvent and detergent and scrub up a lot of gunk that's been sitting in the tank, thereby clogging the pump filters. It won't be an ongoing problem for them because eventually the tanks will be scrubbed clean, but there definitely can be problems in the short run.

Personally, I wouldn't buy my gas from a station that's having those kinds of changeover problems. Some of that crap, and maybe some phase-separated water, may very well end up in YOUR gas tank.

Wow... and I wonder if there is a way to know when a station has recently switched over... other then keeping an eye on it (a particular station) yourself... you might never know... and might never know if you're getting dislodged crap put into YOUR system... so, based on that article from Des Moines... it makes sense that people are paying the 10¢ more a gallon.

BTW UMP - I didn't mean for this to turn into a big deal... I DO appreciate your humor here. :)

Sodar
05-01-2008, 01:25 PM
BTW UMP - I didn't mean for this to turn into a big deal... I DO appreciate your humor here. :)

I don't .

bigmac
05-01-2008, 01:30 PM
I wasn't really aware that there were still states changing over. When I moved to Minnesota, it had already pretty much changed over to ethanol, and that was actually mandated a few years ago. And I grew up in Nebraska and all the stations there changed over in the late 70's. I do recall this was a big problem back then, not only for the crap pumped out of the gas station tanks, but the same detergent action on the cars' gas tanks clogging automobile fuel filters, not to mention the large number of cars (MOST cars) back then that didn't really have all of their fuel system components made of materials that were resistant to the solvent action of ethanol.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
05-01-2008, 02:04 PM
I don't .

Cameron hates my guts. I am the sole reason he went to mod school.