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DaveBF200
04-10-2008, 10:08 AM
Just curious if anyone would be interested in composite tracking fins. I do some consulting work with a company in the Charlotte area that has a composites business.

My thoughts are that the composite fin would be thinner with the same strength and therefore more efficient. Also they could be made with a break point in case you hit a submerged object. It would break the fin instead of tearing it out of the bottom of the boat. A friend of mine broke 2 on his Malibu last season.

I don't have a price estimate yet but I'm assuming it would be more than the $100 metal version.

Comments?

Ric
04-10-2008, 10:14 AM
welcome Dave

TMCNo1
04-10-2008, 10:20 AM
It may be something you would want to persue thru MC Engineering. Go to www.mastercraft.com (http://www.mastercraft.com) to "Contact us", give them some info to pass along to the right people so they can contact you about the idea and see what happens.

And, welocme to Team Talk!

coz
04-10-2008, 10:23 AM
Just curious if anyone would be interested in composite tracking fins. I do some consulting work with a company in the Charlotte area that has a composites business.

My thoughts are that the composite fin would be thinner with the same strength and therefore more efficient. Also they could be made with a break point in case you hit a submerged object. It would break the fin instead of tearing it out of the bottom of the boat. A friend of mine broke 2 on his Malibu last season.

I don't have a price estimate yet but I'm assuming it would be more than the $100 metal version.

Comments?

I think it's a good idea especially the break point to reduce damage from a bottom strike but composites have been around for a while and I would think it's probably been tried and if it was a good idea it would be used today. I dunno :confused: seems when you think you have a good idea it turns out it's already been tried, if it hasn't maybe your on to something. :D BTW If you find out it might work out give ma a call I have capitol to start a new business.

TRBenj
04-10-2008, 11:47 AM
I think its a terrific idea- Id love to see something like this made.

Im sure its been thought of before, and possibly even tried- but I bet there is a good reason its not commonly done today: COST. The existing cast examples probably cost peanuts to manufacture, and are proven. I imagine there are lots of applications that could be improved by using composites, but are not cost effective to implement.

If the design works, and theres any chance that there would be efficiency (read: speed) increases, Im all for it! These might look great while sitting on the lift or trailer, too.

coz
04-10-2008, 12:12 PM
These might look great while sitting on the lift or trailer, too.


Custom graphics tracking fins! :confused: What will they think of next? Hey! surfboards have them :confused: why not? :D

BrianM
04-10-2008, 12:51 PM
Carbon fiber tracking fins and rudder sure would sure look killer! Talk about bling. I like the idea.

3event
04-10-2008, 02:10 PM
Small possibility that steel is useful to take the hit rather than let the object contact the strut / shaft / prop first ?

IF the composite versions break away, the strut is next in line for a beating.

That seems unlikely, but .....

88 PS190
04-10-2008, 02:30 PM
What sort of composite is this?

How is the rigidity? The load is going to be mostly horizontal, many composites might have trouble being very thin in that dimension and not flexing horizontally.

Not all, I'm sure there are some increadible composites out there.

Marketwise, I doubt there are many people who would replace their old versions unless they were broken already. In most cases these are kind of a bugger to access under the engine for the bolts, corrosion/galling, and annoying to deal with. So for something with little percieved benefit (how much thinner for how much $)

But if they were incorporated on new boats people would probably stick with them if they performed alright.

Additionally I somewhat agree with 3Event, rather trash some skegs than the strut, shaft, prop, rudder.

Hard to really know how this sort of thing would be recieved. Other than the bling appeal of carbon, I wouldn't go through the hassle of replacing mine.

M-Funf
04-10-2008, 02:31 PM
Carbon fiber tracking fins and rudder sure would sure look killer! Talk about bling. I like the idea.

Sounds great! Like Brian said, don't forget the rudder

BrianM
04-10-2008, 02:39 PM
How awesome would the 2008 TT boat look with carbon fiber tracking fins and rudder with a polished stainless shaft and prop. Stealth BLING!

Jim@BAWS
04-10-2008, 02:54 PM
I know MC has looked at this idea. Some of the problem is strengh and vibration. MC has upgraded there fins the last couple of years.

Malibu is a different animal totally. There fins are held on by 4 small screws then glued on w/ 5200. Thats it ! They have a tendancy to come off quite a bit, then never really seal again because the screws have been torn out. MC through bolts the fins. Stronger and more precise

I would agree that an email to engineering may help. You have to follow up. Be ready with product to demostrate
That is why Gere Marie is ow the tower manufactuer FOLLOW UP FOLLOW UP FOLLOW UP

Jim@BAWS


Just curious if anyone would be interested in composite tracking fins. I do some consulting work with a company in the Charlotte area that has a composites business.

My thoughts are that the composite fin would be thinner with the same strength and therefore more efficient. Also they could be made with a break point in case you hit a submerged object. It would break the fin instead of tearing it out of the bottom of the boat. A friend of mine broke 2 on his Malibu last season.

I don't have a price estimate yet but I'm assuming it would be more than the $100 metal version.

Comments?

wakeX2wake
04-10-2008, 03:20 PM
i would be affraid of the composite material in the rudder due to the lighter weight would most likely make handling not as smooth... the composite fins makes sense... there also may be a weight issue there too... i would be more concerned about the wear on a composite material however... composite material tends to fatigue from the inside out through vibration and other outside stresses but the break away part doesn't sound bad... something like this i would think would need to have some serious testing over time... i would almost be affraid of doing an accelerated type testing on it due the the nature of composite material

Ric
04-10-2008, 03:32 PM
Sounds great! Like Brian said, don't forget the rudder and the prop !

TMCNo1
04-10-2008, 03:49 PM
and the prop !

And the fresh water strainer and bottom plug, loosing all that weight means more beer in the cooler, right?:rolleyes:

Chas
04-10-2008, 04:25 PM
Don't Moombas already come with plastic fins?

ProTour X9
04-10-2008, 06:27 PM
Don't Moombas already come with plastic fins?

I hear their hulls are plastic too!!;) :rolleyes:

TRBenj
04-10-2008, 06:31 PM
Malibu is a different animal totally. There fins are held on by 4 small screws then glued on w/ 5200. Thats it ! They have a tendancy to come off quite a bit, then never really seal again because the screws have been torn out. MC through bolts the fins. Stronger and more precise
Through bolting them is stronger, no doubt- but is that a good thing? If I were to hit something and tear a fin off, Id rather be looking at 4 small holes in the hull than one huge one. The repair would also be easier- and I imagine you run a much bigger risk of sinking the boat with a hole the size of a tracking fin in the hull! 4 screws and 5200 is PLENTY strong. I dont understand the precision comment.

Through bolting the drivetrain and steering components makes sense, as does lifting rings, cleats, etc. Tracking fins, not so much, IMO.

ProTour X9
04-10-2008, 07:16 PM
The best thing to do is not be in a situation where you're in 2ft of water.

jimmer2880
04-11-2008, 10:08 AM
The best thing to do is not be in a situation where you're in 2ft of water.

That sounds good. However, I often boat in ~6' of water on a river with a hard bottom. Every once-in-a-while (once every 5 or so years), a stump/root ball will roll it's way down the bottom of the river during high water. There have been a handful of occasions where friends of mine, who have spent 30 to 50 years on that part of the river hit a root ball (not the same one, since we mark them when we find them) that is only 6" below the water surface. Needless to say, they do some hard damage. Thank goodness that they are rare :eek:

wakeX2wake
04-11-2008, 10:12 AM
i'll just stick to not having the fins

Farmer Ted
04-11-2008, 11:30 AM
we use carbon fiber brakes on our planes, they do not like water, they carbon delaminates and blows up (puffs)

you have a good idea, but I'd be afraid that if the protective coating got fouled in any manner that they become saturated with water, delaminate and break

TRBenj
04-11-2008, 12:08 PM
we use carbon fiber brakes on our planes, they do not like water, they carbon delaminates and blows up (puffs)

you have a good idea, but I'd be afraid that if the protective coating got fouled in any manner that they become saturated with water, delaminate and break

If epoxy resin is used (like in the construction of the hull), thats waterproof. Id imagine that working with carbon fiber would be similar to working with fiberglass- but Im certainly no expert.

88 PS190
04-11-2008, 12:48 PM
Through bolting the drivetrain and steering components makes sense, as does lifting rings, cleats, etc. Tracking fins, not so much, IMO.

Issue here is where you place your priority on during engineering.

If you design these to break off easily instead of designing them to remain in precise alignment then what you are doing is making a boat that is designed to be abused but not perform at its peak.

Not that you cannot consider what occurs if you bottom the boat out, but really, if you are hitting the tracking fins on an MC hard enough to break the hull you are opperating in an area you have no business being in. At speeds that would damage the hull you are on plane, which means that these fins are not very deep in the water, depending on the boat probably less than a foot of depth on plane. Your prop and rudder, being more rearward on the hull are deeper, so if you hit the tracking fins you are going to hit the prop, strut, and rudder.

I'd rather have them stay put and be in alignment and rigid than be prepared to bottom my hull on something.

88 PS190
04-11-2008, 12:51 PM
we use carbon fiber brakes on our planes, they do not like water, they carbon delaminates and blows up (puffs)

Are carbon brakes even carbon fiber? I think they are more similar to compacted carbon plates.

Carbon fiber is held together with an epoxy which will have issues dissapating the temperature experienced in braking. Don't know if this applies to planes, but definately on cars, the carbon brakes systems aren't carbon fiber.

Jesus_Freak
04-11-2008, 01:45 PM
My thoughts are that the composite fin would be thinner with the same strength and therefore more efficient.

The relative amount of the total hull drag imposed by any metal fin inefficiences would be insignificant.


...I'd rather have them stay put and be in alignment and rigid than be prepared to bottom my hull on something....

Great point. Agreed.

EDIT: Narrow fin alignment is much more important than contouring in efficiency considerations.

CarlosCabanas
04-11-2008, 06:18 PM
we use carbon fiber brakes on our planes, they do not like water, they carbon delaminates and blows up (puffs)

you have a good idea, but I'd be afraid that if the protective coating got fouled in any manner that they become saturated with water, delaminate and break


High end white water kayaks for racing are made from carbon and kevlar with epoxy. Very strong, very light and very water proof.

Carlos

mpm32
04-14-2008, 01:53 PM
So are waterskis. ;)

Carlos,

For our honeymoon 13 years ago we went to Journey's End on Ambergris. Is it still there and how is it doing?

CarlosCabanas
04-14-2008, 08:21 PM
Still there!! I'm sure the island has changed a lot though.... coble stoned streets and all!!

Jim@BAWS
04-14-2008, 08:42 PM
Through bolting them is stronger, no doubt- but is that a good thing? If I were to hit something and tear a fin off, Id rather be looking at 4 small holes in the hull than one huge one. The repair would also be easier- and I imagine you run a much bigger risk of sinking the boat with a hole the size of a tracking fin in the hull! 4 screws and 5200 is PLENTY strong. I dont understand the precision comment.

Through bolting the drivetrain and steering components makes sense, as does lifting rings, cleats, etc. Tracking fins, not so much, IMO.

If by chance a BU was as thick as a MC the idea might work. I have HULL PLUGS that have been drilled out of a MC. Over twice as thick as a Malibu in the same area. Malibu has a outer and inner hull. There is a VOID between the bottom of the boat. (THE OUTSIDE) and the inner hull (basically the bildge). If a BU did have through bolted fins on the bottom and it hit something submerged...say GOOD BY BU. They have had the same issue with the Wedge. Instead of the so called WEAK LINK going the Wedge totally is torn off then... good bye BU.

MC has always through bolted the underwater gear. It has always been done that way. Why change when the results have always been positive.


Jim@BAWS

ProTour X9
04-14-2008, 09:05 PM
HULL PLUGS that have been drilled out of a MC. Jim@BAWS

Yeah Chris Wingo showed us that on the tour, pretty thick.

Lennyp04
04-14-2008, 09:38 PM
How awesome would the 2008 TT boat look with carbon fiber tracking fins and rudder with a polished stainless shaft and prop. Stealth BLING!


For real, The TT boats are so sick...My marina has 2 of them!!!!