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boofer
04-03-2008, 04:17 PM
Well, I am going to replace my impeller per my "to-do" list before hitting the water. I dread doing it since I have a little issue. My muffler sits right up against the impeller housing. Has anyone ever had this situation? If so, how did you go about dealing with it? Can the muffler be repositioned fairly easy so that I will only have to deal with this one time?

http://carpron.com/multisite/d/205022-2/Picture+142.jpg

And, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

School Skier
04-03-2008, 04:23 PM
What year and size boat is yours? I have a 97 190 and it's very simple to take out. I thought they were all up fron with easy access. I'm sure some one will have the same situation and will help you out, sorry I can't.

bigmac
04-03-2008, 04:37 PM
Yeh, that's certainly a brilliant design concept by MasterCraft.

Your muffler looks even closer than mine, and mine ain't no picnic. You could try this (below), but if you don't have enough clearance even for that, you may need to remove the SilentMaster muffler.

http://mccollister.info/rwpumpclearance.jpg

http://mccollister.info/rwpumpvisegrip.jpg

I might suggest that, if you do remove the muffler, you consider converting your exhaust to the direct baffled system that MC uses on 2007 and later, or the other option (and apparently cheaper) is to get rid of the SilentMaster and replace with a pair of direct inline mufflers (http://www.overtons.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?i=22582&pdesc=4_Ultimate_Ski_Boat_Bullet_Silencer_each&cname=Mufflers-/-Sound-Proofing&aID=23P&merchID=1009&r=view).
http://www.overtons.com/assets/images/products/medium/22582_M1.jpg

bigmac
04-03-2008, 04:40 PM
duplicate post

Esiegert
04-03-2008, 05:41 PM
You can also remove the RWP from the engine block. You'll need to remove the 3 allen head bolts that hold it to the flywheel and the allen head bolt that hols it to the bracket under the pump!!!

It is not the quickest way, but we have found that it takes approx the same time than fighting the impellor that close to the mufflers.

Good Luck!!!

magnum
04-03-2008, 05:51 PM
What model and engine is this own , I just got an 06X-Star with the 8.1 and was looking at it if I wanted to tackle the winterzation this fall and the waterpump is very close to the muffler also , guess that is why the dealers charge to big bucks to winterize

flipper
04-03-2008, 05:53 PM
Don't know if this will work for you, but looks like a similar set up with stuff in the way.....maybe shoot him a pm.

http://www.tmcowners.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=22478&highlight=impeller

WakePowell
04-03-2008, 06:06 PM
boofer - Your clearance is tight! I have an X-45 with the 8.1L and the Silent Master Muffler and it is difficult to change the impeller but nowhere near as tight as yours. It appears that you have to remove the muffler just to get at the impeller cover bolts.

rkmason
04-03-2008, 10:34 PM
You can also remove the RWP from the engine block. You'll need to remove the 3 allen head bolts that hold it to the flywheel and the allen head bolt that hols it to the bracket under the pump!!!

It is not the quickest way, but we have found that it takes approx the same time than fighting the impellor that close to the mufflers.

I'll vote for this approach. If you have to remove & replace something the RWP is easier and quicker than the muffler.

boofer
04-04-2008, 01:45 AM
bigmac, yours looks almost exactly the same accounting for the angle of my photo. Now, how do you negotiate that situation?

If I remove the entire pump will it just come free or does it need to move towords the muffler to come off?

bigmac
04-04-2008, 07:39 AM
bigmac, yours looks almost exactly the same accounting for the angle of my photo. Now, how do you negotiate that situation?

If I remove the entire pump will it just come free or does it need to move towords the muffler to come off?


I didn't remove the muffler or the pump. I used a small wrench to remove the brass bolts of the cover. I then bump the starter to loosen it a little. As in the picture, I then put a needle-nose Vise-Grip on the lower part of the impeller, with one jaw inside the spindle and the lower jaw against the rubber part of the hub. I then reach over the muffler from behind and pull straight back. Re-install is done from the side. I lube the thing up with some food-grade silicone or glycerine and twist it in. It doesn't matter what direction the rubber vanes go...they orient properly as soon as you hit the starter first time.

IMHO, you have to remove not just the middle, clipped-in panel, but also the rear-most panel (held in with one or two screws at the top). I do this from the right side of the engine. IIRC, there's an air-vent hose in the way from the left side.

Prostar Rich
04-04-2008, 09:59 AM
Have you ever thought of getting rid of the muffler all together? That design is terrible by MC to make what should be a simple maintence procedure into such a hassle. Is there any play in the muffler itself where it can be adjusted by positioning the hose on the elbows of the muffler differently?

Prostar Rich

bigmac
04-04-2008, 10:42 AM
Have you ever thought of getting rid of the muffler all together? That design is terrible by MC to make what should be a simple maintence procedure into such a hassle.

Prostar Rich

http://www.tmcowners.com/teamtalk/showpost.php?p=476112&postcount=3

mpwonka
04-06-2008, 01:12 AM
I had the same problem a few weeks back, I assume you have a v-drive ? if so I removed my storage panels and used a mirror and on heck of a uncomfortable postion to take the cover off then pulled my kill switch turned the motor over one time and the impeller poped right out, My dealer told me to use some kind of lube on the new impeller when I put it in, total repair time was less than 1 hour thanks to this site. The 4 bolts in the cover are brass so watch it when you put the cover back on , Hope this helped

JohnnyB
04-06-2008, 09:41 AM
Yeh, that's certainly a brilliant design concept by MasterCraft.

Your muffler looks even closer than mine, and mine ain't no picnic. You could try this (below), but if you don't have enough clearance even for that, you may need to remove the SilentMaster muffler.

http://mccollister.info/rwpumpclearance.jpg

http://mccollister.info/rwpumpvisegrip.jpg

I might suggest that, if you do remove the muffler, you consider converting your exhaust to the direct baffled system that MC uses on 2007 and later, or the other option (and apparently cheaper) is to get rid of the SilentMaster and replace with a pair of direct inline mufflers (http://www.overtons.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?i=22582&pdesc=4_Ultimate_Ski_Boat_Bullet_Silencer_each&cname=Mufflers-/-Sound-Proofing&aID=23P&merchID=1009&r=view).
http://www.overtons.com/assets/images/products/medium/22582_M1.jpg

Holy crap Mac....that looks like a royal PITA.....where's the picture of you standing on your head in the bilge/engine compartment??? You're talented!!!!

bigmac
04-06-2008, 12:36 PM
Holy crap Mac....that looks like a royal PITA.....where's the picture of you standing on your head in the bilge/engine compartment??? You're talented!!!!

It's not really that bad - at least compared to some other boat maintenance procedures on some other boats. This design by MasterCraft, however, does seem particularly...um..."unfortunate", especially for an item of routine maintenance. Especially irritating is that it could have been avoided by shortening the top 4-inch exhaust hoses that connect to the SilentMaster, and lengthening the lower ones thereby moving the thing up far enough be be out of the way. It would only take a couple of inches and you could get an impeller puller on it thereby making it a 10 minute job.

The whole thing is accessible from the same angle I took the picture. The rear-most access panel has to be removed (easy), and you have to lay on your side in the driver's side storage compartment. The problem is the angles. That position is OK for unbolting the cover, and for installing the new impeller, but there's no leverage for pulling the impeller straight back to get it out. My approach was to apply the Vise-Grips, stand up in the compartment and lean over, reach over and behind the SilentMaster and then I could pull straight back. I'm very leery of jiggling the pump off-axis for fear of crushing the pump seal, which seems to be rather delicate, from what I read. All the more reason to make sure the impeller body is as free as possible on the shaft. So I do bump the starter, and when installing the new impeller, I use a modest amount of Nev-R-Seeze on the shaft.

V-drive owners should take a look at the 2007 and later MasterCrafts. The elimination of the SilentMaster muffler makes all the difference for bilge access for this kind of thing.

boofer
04-06-2008, 02:58 PM
bigmac,

I appreciate all of your help. I am going to give it a go here in a few minutes.

I agree with you on your statements about how MC could let this happen to a component that is a part of routine maintenance.

I have not seen the 2007 or later boats and I would be curious if anyone can get us a pic. On a wild hair, is this newer muffler/silencer something that can be installed by the owner?

bigmac
04-06-2008, 04:04 PM
bigmac,

I appreciate all of your help. I am going to give it a go here in a few minutes.

I agree with you on your statements about how MC could let this happen to a component that is a part of routine maintenance.

I have not seen the 2007 or later boats and I would be curious if anyone can get us a pic. On a wild hair, is this newer muffler/silencer something that can be installed by the owner?MasterCraft now uses a baffled exhaust and it's inline, so each of the two exhaust hoses goes right from the manifold to the transom, therefore no big silencer sitting crosswise blocking access to all the stuff at that part of the engine. Reportedly, that new system can be retrofitted to older boats, but from a post awhile back from MYMC (http://www.tmcowners.com/teamtalk/showpost.php?p=216370&postcount=24), I infer that it's a little complicated. Consider PM'ing him to ask about cost and effort. The price he mentioned ($165 each) was from a couple of years ago. I'd be a little surprised if it's still that low, but maybe...

boofer
04-06-2008, 04:19 PM
Interesting bigmac. I emailed him earlier regarding my situation. I hope to hear back from him this week.

I just tried removing the entire impeller housing without any luck. It would not budge one bit. I removed the 3 allen bolts holding it to the flywheel and the one holing it to the bracket. After "staring" at it I believe that even if I were able to get it to budge it would not hace enough clearance to remove it.

So, right now I am looking at having to fvck with the muffler. Those hoses are extremely tight and I really do not feel comfortable jamming anything under the edges to loosen them. If I am correct, the muffler exterior is made of fiberglass and I could possibly punch a hole in it.

I might be able to remove 3 of the 4 screws holding the cover on the impeller and swing the cover up. But, I do not have enough clearance to get the impeller out and a new one back in.

I am really really curious about how a "good" boat is put together regarding this situation. I cannot fathom thinking that MC put all of these boats together like this. It is asinine.

boofer
04-06-2008, 05:52 PM
Just a quick update. I removed 3 of the 4 screws and managed to swing the cover out of the way. The 4th screw will not come out due to the muffler. But, my assumption about not having enough clearance to remove the impeller was correct. I took the new impeller and checked to see if I had clearance and it is nill. I am screwed. I have no choice but to reposition the muffler. I already tried moving one of the large hoses and it is next to impossible. I can barely slip a screwdriver under the edge to attempt to loosen it. I am real tempted to take it to a dealer and have them reposition the muffler for me. But, as many of you know, my relationship with my dealer is not the greatest.

Even if I could remove the muffler, I would need all new hoses to reposition it to a proper place.

I am so danged mad right now that MC did this. It is just plain freakin stupid. I paid over 40 grand for this boat and something like this is inexcusable. I am pretty sure that this is not covered under warranty.

I will run the current impeller till I can come up with an plan. It looks to be in great shape from what I can see through the inlet/outlet holes. I just want peace of mind.

bigmac
04-06-2008, 06:16 PM
As it appeared from your photo, your clearance is even less than mine, since, although tight, I was able to get all the brass bolts out and get the impeller in and out.

I hear you about the poor design. If I were in your shoes, as I came within millimeters of being, I'd certainly be mad enough to call MasterCraft's customer service. Maybe they can at least give you a clue as to how to get the silencer out more easily, but I do agree..the concept of selling a $40k boat where you have to remove the muffler to change as basic an inboard item as an impeller does indeed border on inexcusably poor engineering.

boofer
04-06-2008, 06:53 PM
bigmac,

I emailed Mike over at Charlotte again. I have asked him about the possibility of this being a defect in manufacturing. Despite the fact that my warranty is expired, maybe I can get some sympathy and a fix.

Now, if I could just get this muffler moved, I could at least get the impeller replaced and take my time on a more permanent fix. These hoses are wire reinforced and they will not budge. I am not sure if heating them will help. I do not have anything that I can think of to wrap around the hoses and try to turn/twist them.

I did find a post on this board that said MC has replacement inline mufflers. I am not referring to the newer system on 2007 and later boats. Apparently, these are meant to replace the horizontal (bigass) muffler we have should it ever fail. In other words, if I had a hole develop and took it to a dealer they would replace the single muffler with 2 inline mufflers. I have found these inline mufflers on several store sites, but I am wary of replacing anything like this with something "not from MC." I asked Mike in my email about these and if MC truly does have these.

bigmac
04-06-2008, 07:48 PM
Heck...Overtons has those (http://www.overtons.com/modperl/product/details.cgi?i=22582&pdesc=4_Ultimate_Ski_Boat_Bullet_Silencer_each&str=silencer&merchID=1008&r=view), as well as additional 4" wire-reinforced exhaust hose (http://www.overtons.com/modperl/product/search.cgi?str=exhaust+hose&x=0&y=0&r=search)...

West Marine has that stuff too.
(http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10001/65428/377%20710/0/muffler/Primary%20Search/mode%20matchallpartial/0/0?N=377%20710&Ne=0&Ntt=muffler&Ntk=Primary%20Search&Ntx=mode%20matchallpartial&Nao=0&Ns=0&keyword=muffler&isLTokenURL=true&storeNum=6&subdeptNum=68&classNum=69)

I'm skeptical that MasterCraft will own up, but it would be nice to see them acknowledge such a PITA design error and update your exhaust.

Jerseydave
04-06-2008, 08:30 PM
On my 2005 X-star MCX I have enough room to fit my thumb in between the top screw and the muffler. Maybe you could loosen the hose clamps on the manifold and slide the hoses down 1/2-1 inch, just enough to get a wrench on that top screw. Maybe there is enough rubber on that end of the hose to re-clamp it in that position so you don't have to go through this again. I wouldn't leave the muffler atually touching that screw anyway, in time it will vibrate enough to wear a hole in your muffler.

Worst case, shorten the lower hoses and get longer ones on the engine side to gain clearance. DON"T use heat on those rubber hoses, they might melt.

Engine Nut
04-06-2008, 10:08 PM
bigmac,

I emailed Mike over at Charlotte again. I have asked him about the possibility of this being a defect in manufacturing. Despite the fact that my warranty is expired, maybe I can get some sympathy and a fix.

Now, if I could just get this muffler moved, I could at least get the impeller replaced and take my time on a more permanent fix. These hoses are wire reinforced and they will not budge. I am not sure if heating them will help. I do not have anything that I can think of to wrap around the hoses and try to turn/twist them.

I did find a post on this board that said MC has replacement inline mufflers. I am not referring to the newer system on 2007 and later boats. Apparently, these are meant to replace the horizontal (bigass) muffler we have should it ever fail. In other words, if I had a hole develop and took it to a dealer they would replace the single muffler with 2 inline mufflers. I have found these inline mufflers on several store sites, but I am wary of replacing anything like this with something "not from MC." I asked Mike in my email about these and if MC truly does have these.

You might try removing the whole pump. There are only three socket head screws that hold the pump flange to the crankshaft pulley/harmonic balancer. That way you could R&R the impeller with the pump on your workbench and then replace the whole pump assembly.

boofer
04-06-2008, 11:13 PM
bigmac, I might just beboop over to West tomorrow. I want to make sure that I get the correct part.

I went ahead and got her dewinterized and started her up. Gotta love when it starts up after only a few turns of the starter.

Nut, I gave your recommendation a try earlier and the pump would not budge one bit. I removed the 3 screws on the flywheel and the one on the bracket. It is not touching the muffler but it is very close. I attempted to move the muffler, but the hoses are just too tough for me to loosen.

Now, I did see a few drops of water coming from the impeller cover. According to the manual (pathetic), it is not necessary to use a seal. My replacement impeller (MC), has a seal included. Of course, since I cannot remove the top screw on the cover, I cannot replace the seal. These screws were not very tight and, without having torque specifications, I do not really want to tighten them any more. Any thoughts?

93ProStar205
04-06-2008, 11:35 PM
Wow, this thread and pics made me feel a good bit better about my direct drive 205. . . I feel for you guys!

boofer
04-07-2008, 01:31 AM
Okay, after giving this whole situation some serious thought, I am leaning away from any sort of muffler replacement. Nothing is broke, just screwed up. I do not feel like paying hundreds of dollars and spending many hours/days of work to replace/modify a muffler so that I can, in the end, replace an impeller.

I decided that my best bet was to attempt (again) to remove the whole pump. I removed all 3 of the bolts holding it to the flywheel and the 1 bolt holding it to the bracket. I removed the 2 hoses. This puppy will not budge one bit. I tried tapping on it with a hammer, but I did not want to tap too hard for fear of breaking the rear seal or the pump itself. I am 99% sure that where the pump and the flywheel attach is completely flat. Am I correct? I mean even if the pump was somewhat stuck on to the flywheel, a few taps from a hammer should cause it to pop right off. The base of the raw water pump appears to be approximately 3/8" thick (I stuck a finger in a hole). I have sprayed it with WD40, but I am not hopeful that will help. If I can just get it to budge, I might be able to "angle" it out with the millimeters worth of clearance.

I have been reading dozens of posts related to the raw water pump and impellers. It appears that a few others have encountered this same problem in removing the pump, but no one ever answered them.

I am open to any and all suggestions. I am so damned disappointed that a seemingly simple procedure is becoming a major situation. PLEASE HELP!

In the end I fear that I will have to take it to a dealer to get the muffler adjusted. Due to my sterling relationship with my dealer, I will probably have to go to one several hours away. Did I mention how pissed I am? It keeps getting worse.

boofer
04-07-2008, 03:07 PM
I just talk to Mike at Charlotte. He said that he is 100% sure that MC would not warranty this because this is the way it is designed. He also said that removing the muffler to replace an impeller is standard procedure for them.

I am going to give it one more shot to remove at least the hoses from the manifold to the muffler in an attempt to gain myself at least an inch of additional clearance. I am hopeful that if I can get at least an inch that I can R/R the impeller.

He also told me that MC does NOT have a replacement inline muffler. Someone here on another post said that MC carries these and I trust Mike. So, MC does NOT carry inline mufflers. I am hesitant to replace my muffler with something else for 2 reasons. One, it is not factory and it could end up being worse/noisier than what I have. Two, my muffler works fine and replacing it would cost me hundreds, not to mention a lot of time.

So, let's go see what I can do to weasel these hoses off. Wish me luck.

Jerseydave
04-07-2008, 03:11 PM
I'm very surprised that you can't remove the hose clamps and shift or remover the muffler. Try taking the clamps off all the way, soak the ends of the hoses with soapy water and twist the hoses to break them free so you can remove the muffler. I would think this to be easier than removing the pump from the front of engine. (that's not the flywheel by the way, it's the harmonic balancer)

boofer
04-07-2008, 06:49 PM
njskier, Thanks. Although, I guess that technically it is the crankshaft pulley.

But, nonetheless, I was able to get the upper exhaust hoses to move. From there I was able to remove the upper portion of the muffler. I also removed the clamps to the lower portion of the muffler. I am not sure that made any difference, but it did allow me to move the muffler vertically. Here is a pic of the muffler in the state that allowed me much more room to change the impeller.

http://carpron.com/multisite/d/205423-2/Picture+144.jpg

Here is a pic of the clearance I achieved by removing these hoses from the manifolds.

http://carpron.com/multisite/d/205426-2/Picture+145.jpg

Removing the impeller was not too bad. I used a screwdriver to pry it a little then used locking pliers to work it the rest of the way out. I used some "personal lubricant" (water based, safe to use on rubber components) to ease the new impeller in with the vanes in the correct direction. And got her all back together. I will probably hook her up to the water just to make sure that I have no leaks.

So, all-in-all, this was a pain. But, removing the hose from the manifolds made a world of difference. It would be nice not to have to do this each time. But, since it will only happen once a year, I can live with it.

Sometime in the future I might look into using different sized pieces of hose to see if I can alter the position of the muffler enough to not have to remove the hoses, but that is number 10,437 on my to-do list. Now, I can concentrate on the lawn (it's a bit high since Spring showed up).

Jerseydave
04-07-2008, 08:27 PM
Glad everything worked out for you.................it would be a good idea to eventually change your hoses to allow for extra room.

emnesto
04-07-2008, 08:48 PM
bigmac - Earlier you said " It doesn't matter what direction the rubber vanes go...they orient properly as soon as you hit the starter first time". I know I goofed and installed mine the wrong direction. I was just about to reinstall correctly when I read your post. Anyone - what's your experience. Should I leave it go, or reinstall.

boofer
04-08-2008, 01:14 AM
emnesto, the manual actually instructs you to install the new impeller with the vanes in the "correct" direction. But, I have read numerous posts and almost all of them say it is not a factor. I tend to believe what these people have said is true. As soon as you crank the starter the vanes are going to orient themselves in the correct direction. I think you/we are safe. I found a raw water pump rebuild document. I have attached it. If you look at Fig.2, that is the correct orientation.

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