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View Full Version : Where to put a second battery in a 2005 X-2?


boofer
04-03-2008, 01:30 AM
Hello. I am considering putting a second battery in our 2005 X-2 due to a stereo upgrade. This is not a "how to wire a second battery" question. Diesel did an excellent writeup on this issue. I am just curious about where to put this second battery. The factory placement for the current battery is under the observers seat. I prefer not to do any sort of "destructive" installation, i.e. I do not want to permanently alter the boat in any way should I ever consider selling it in a stock condition (doubtful, but never say never). I am running low on storage space after my ballast upgrade and heater install (rear lockers are full, center is full, under bow seats are full, no room under the dash). I would prefer to keep the remainder of the area surrounding the current battery free since it is the most easily accessible area for gear.

Having said all of this, I am entertaining any and all suggestions.

boofer
04-03-2008, 03:56 PM
I just looked at the boat. I really do not see any obviously places to lacte a second battery. I might could put one on the other side of the small partition that separates the port side under seat area with the area under the observers seat. I would not have any reservations about cutting the holes necessary to run the short length of battery cable through this small partition (it could be easily replaced). But, I am not sure about how I would be able to secure the battery in this area.

Although I would prefer not to do anything "destructive," it would be nice to install another battery right next to the current one. Has anyone done this?

Like my initial post. I am willing to listen to any suggestions.

Monte
04-03-2008, 04:02 PM
Most auto parts stores sell battery trays. Basiclly it is a plastic tray with two long screws bent at one end like hooks, and a rubber crossmember that crosses the top of the battery. It will come with a wingnuts to hook the battery down..

I just reread my post and it is very confusing. Go to autozone and look for a battery tray..

boofer
04-03-2008, 04:24 PM
I know what you are referring to Monte. How exactly do these mount to the vehicle though?

What I really need is input as to where to locate the battery. But, any input is welcome. Thanks Monte.

2000XPSD
04-03-2008, 08:09 PM
i'm in the middle of installing a second battery in a 04 X2. The oem bat is under the observers seat in a box that is cut into the floor...probably the same as yours. I just bought a tray from the store and am going to bolt it to the floor in front of the oem bat. In between i'm going to mount the solenoid. The amps are mounted right there also so all the wire runs will be short. I think this spot is perfect as it doesn't really rob storage space since it's tucked forward of the oem bat and also all the cables are right there. Keep in mind 1 gauge bat wire is not cheap if your going to install it far away from the oem

Monte
04-03-2008, 08:46 PM
I know what you are referring to Monte. How exactly do these mount to the vehicle though?

What I really need is input as to where to locate the battery. But, any input is welcome. Thanks Monte.

You would have to bolt it down.

From your previous post I was under the impression you had alreday decided on the location of the extra battery..

boofer
04-03-2008, 11:55 PM
Has anyone seen this before? I think that it is on Diesel's boat. I found the pic over on mymastercraft.com.

http://carpron.com/multisite/d/205096-1/dsc004677bk.jpg

This would be nice and clean. It still takes up space but I would be willing to bet it utilizes the current hold-down system.

The only thing that I notice in the pic is that he used regular batteries without the additional posts. I am sure that he has a reason and it would not be a huge deal to use Marines batteries instead.

2000XPSD
04-04-2008, 08:30 AM
if i get some time this weekend i should be able to finish my install...if so i'll get you a picture

remember to check your alt and make sure it's not the little 50 or so amp'r. If so you'll have to bump it up along with the wire. And also remember you have to run a new wire back to the new battery for the solenoid. I had a post in the maintenance forum on how i did it but if you need a picture of the harness i cut into let me know.

boofer
04-04-2008, 03:22 PM
2000XPSD, I do need to check the alternator. I will browse for your post and let you know if I need you to post the pic.

Just curious, is it ok to use a smaller battery for just the stereo? I know that most of the stuff that I have read recommends using like sized batteries. But, the second battery will be primarily for the stereo and a backup to the primary battery. I plan on using the relay to combine the batteries (batteries isolated till the key is set to ON).

When I bought the boat they had to replace the battery since it was dead. The battery box that came with the boat was only half the size of the stock battery and had a cover. Does anyone know what kind of battery came with these boats? I am just curious because it must of been almost half the height of a "regular" battery.

2000XPSD
04-04-2008, 06:15 PM
i'm using group 24's...as far as i know that was oem.

if you pull the side cover off the engine and stick your head in there you'll see a black tag on the alt with the amps. while you're in there see what alt bracket you have too...http://www.tmcowners.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=16676&highlight=alternator+bracket

Half the size box??? what the hell battery did they give you a 904?

boofer
04-05-2008, 02:11 AM
The battery must of been only about 5-6 inches tall (all other dimensions the same as a reg. battery). This is the way it came from the factory. I never saw the battery before they replaced it. The dealer had it swapped out while I was doing something else.

I will check the alt. soon.

boofer
04-08-2008, 01:03 AM
My alternator is rated at 95amps. So, I think that I am good to go with the alternator.

boofer
04-12-2008, 02:31 PM
I honestly think that they may of installed something like an Odyssey 925 battery.

Has anyone ever considered installing a "larger" battery in lieu of adding a second battery?

I am at a quandary. I think that we could get by with a single battery considering our listening habits. But, I cannot help wanting the added security of a second battery.

I would love to see other peoples second battery installation pictures. Diesel's home made box is awesome, but I am not sure that I can pull that off. No disrespect Diesel. I am just trying to get a big picture before I dive into this thing.

Any thoughts on using our Optima for the stereo and a Odyssey 925 (mounted in a bracket under the amplifier on the same piece of King Starboard as the amplifier) seem reasonable?

http://www.odysseybatteries.com/images/billet/hd925sm_fl.jpg

JimN
04-12-2008, 05:12 PM
It's generally better to have a separate battery if you run a lot of accessories because, if they draw enough to kill it, you can still go home.

For any high power stereo, you need to make sure there's a fuse or breaker within 12" of the battery + terminal. If you run more than one amp, use a non-fused distribution block. I don't know of any amps that don't have fuses on them and non-fused amps would be the only reason to use a block with fuses.

boofer
04-13-2008, 12:41 AM
Thanks JimN. You bring up an interesting point. The amp that I am considering is fused, yet it recommends installing a separate fuse no further than 10" from the positive battery terminal. Is the extra fuse really necessary? Is the additional fuse a holdover from the days of nonfused amplifiers?

JimN
04-13-2008, 12:51 AM
Ideally, the fuse should be 6" from the terminal, but sometimes that's not possible.

Think about what would happen if the positive battery cable was shorted to ground, either to the motor or the negative cable, somewhere between the battery post and the amp's fuse. Your battery will have anywhere from 500 to 1000 CCA (Cold Cranking Amps) and when you consider that you can melt a wrench if it comes in contact with both terminals, your cable's insulation doesn't have a chance of surviving. Neither do you and the boat.

The fuse at the battery is to keep the boat from burning if a short occurs. The one on the amp is to save the amp, nothing else.

If you look closely to Diesel's battery photo, you'll see a fuse holder on the cable that is routed to the left of the + terminal, behind the battery.

boofer
04-13-2008, 01:09 AM
Excellent explanation JimN. I appreciate the information.

boofer
04-13-2008, 03:16 AM
Can someone please verify that I have labeled the wiring at the battery correctly. I just want to make sure that I am not "assuming" anything. I can track down a single wire with an automobile electrical diagram. But, since these boats do not have the same types of manuals I want to doublecheck.

http://carpron.com/multisite/d/206306-2/Picture+134a.JPG

JimN
04-13-2008, 11:58 AM
I have some questions-

1) Is that the only battery in the boat?
2) What is the maximum current the amp(s) will draw? Add the fuses up and use that as your basis, then if you plan to add more later, double the gauge of the cables (both positive and negative).
3) What is the thinner red and black power wires for?
4) If you have two batteries, how are you isolating them so one can't discharge the other?

Use a soldering gun (or heavy duty tinning iron) to solder the ring terminals on the cables. Corrosion will have much less chance of causing the connection to deteriorate over time. Yes, I know- they're already in the boat but you won't have to track any weird problems down later if you do this. It is a boat, after all.

boofer
04-14-2008, 12:32 AM
JimN,

The stereo and electrical system are all stock: 4 component speakers, 10" subwoofer, JLAudio 4300 amplifier, 95amp alternator, 1 battery.

The smaller wires are for the amplifier.

I plan on using an isolator for a second battery. I am eyeing a 200amp model (Stinger branded).

A rough estimate of the power I intend on using for the stereo is 930 watts. It might actually be lower since the 4 stock component speakers are wired 2 to a channel (the single 10" sub is bridged). If I am correct the wiring of 2 4ohm speakers to a single channel shows the amp a total of an 8ohm resistance. If that is correct, then my total wattage required will be less than 930watts.

What I wanted to know regarding my picture is if I am correct in the identification of the wires.

JimN
04-14-2008, 12:46 AM
If you're going to be anywhere near 930W, is that actual max output? That little wire isn't going to be close to what the battery and amp need. Using Ohm's Law, P=IxE (Current x Voltage), and if you can actually average 12V at idle (with the stereo cranked, that's not likely), 930W=Ix12, or 77.5A and that's assuming 100% efficiency, which will never happen. Assuming that you want some current to run the accessories and motor, 95A doesn't sound like it'll be enough, does it? I'd be looking at something in the range of 135A or more. Also, 1/0 battery cable may be more like it for the amps.

You might want to consider one of the Stinger batteries, too. They're about the smallest for the capacity and the lead is more pure, so the ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance) is lower than most and that lets it dump more current in a given amount of time, which is good for peak demand.

boofer
04-14-2008, 01:12 AM
Thanks for the information JimN. This is all still in the planning stages. I hope to have a good solid plan before I begin so that the actual installation will go much smoother.

I am extremely doubtful that we will ever max out the stereo system. We are a family of 4 and rarely see anything even close to half volume. Typically we hang around 1/3 volume while anchored. We do not play the stereo very loud while riding so we can still communicate, lol. I think that 95amps will handle the demand.

1/0 for the amps seems a little big. All of the information that I have gathered so far recommend nothing smaller than 4ga. Much of this information comes directly from the manufacturers' documentation. I think that I am going to use 1/0 for the battery to battery connections. But, I do need to check the stock amplifier wiring. It might actually be 6 or 8ga.

But, am I correct on the connections on my picture?

boofer
04-14-2008, 01:12 AM
Thanks for the information JimN. This is all still in the planning stages. I hope to have a good solid plan before I begin so that the actual installation will go much smoother.

I am extremely doubtful that we will ever max out the stereo system. We are a family of 4 and rarely see anything even close to half volume. Typically we hang around 1/3 volume while anchored. We do not play the stereo very loud while riding so we can still communicate, lol. I think that 95amps will handle the demand.

1/0 for the amps seems a little big. All of the information that I have gathered so far recommend nothing smaller than 4ga. Much of this information comes directly from the manufacturers' documentation. I think that I am going to use 1/0 for the battery to battery connections. But, I do need to check the stock amplifier wiring. It might actually be 6 or 8ga.

But, am I correct on the connections on my picture?

JimN
04-14-2008, 01:24 AM
4AWG is good for 60A at 16'. If the current exceeds that, the cable heats up and the voltage drops. Voltage drop increases current, if the same power level is achieved (again, P=IxE), and this creates a vicious cycle. The cable gets hot, voltage drops, current increases and the amp gets hot. Hot amps don't usually last very long and for the cost of heavier cable, your system will work better, and longer.

Where will the second battery be, in relation to the main one? I would try to keep them as close to each other as possible, in order to keep the cable routing as simple as possible.

boofer
04-14-2008, 01:48 AM
The second battery will be as close as I can mount it next to the current battery.

Just a wild hair. Is it possible to measure the total current draw at any point in time when the engine is running?

JimN
04-14-2008, 09:17 AM
Most multi-meters go to about 10A, so this would require a clamp style meter. Normally, an ammeter goes in series with the load. You may see a peak but it won't be particularly accurate, other than for an average reading.

boofer
04-15-2008, 01:09 AM
Thanks JimN. I did a little reading last night over on the WakeWorld forum. It appears that there are a lot of variables to consider with regards to upgrading the alternator. It seemed to become fairly obvious that for a somewhat basic stereo comprised of 4 in-boat speakers, a single sub, a set of tower speakers, and 2 amplifiers, that it was recommended that one have a 100apm alternator (mine is 95amps). It only appeared that those using these 140amp alternator had these sound systems that cost almost as much as the boat. It was also almost 50/50 on whether or not people were installing a second battery with an "average" system. But, regardless of the type of stereo one has I am convinced that having a second battery is a must.

Before I do anything I will draw up a picture with specifics for people to look at and criticize for me. As I mentioned somewhere before, I am only in the planning stages for now. I haven't purchased a thing. I am kind of anal about this stuff. When I did my ballast and my heater, I had a really good plan to start with which made things go much more smoothly.

Would someone please confirm or correct me about the wires on the battery (reference the above picture).

JimN
04-15-2008, 10:00 AM
When I make a recommendation on something like this, it's based on having done car audio for a long time and having seen failures from inadequate voltage/current supply. Melted fuse holders, terminals on amps, plastic holders for distribution blocks, wire insulation, solder joints inside amps, vehicle fires, repeated distributor failures and repeatedly blowing speakers are all common problems. Current draw causes voltage to drop, increasing current (P=IxE). Heavy charging causes the plates in a battery to heat up, evaporating the electrolyte, even in a "zero maintenance" battery. It also heats up the alternator, causing the bearings to fail, burn-through in the windings and damage to the rectifier. Expensive gauge sets and microprocessors fail due to dirty power and spikes, accessories/motors do some really weird things and all it takes to keep it from happening is a second battery, a heavy-duty alternator and some extra power cable. Put a voltmeter on the battery terminals and watch it move (downward, usually) when a stereo is cranked and the motor is running. If it drops, the alternator can't keep up. It now takes about 50A just for the boat's electrical system- they put a 95A alternator in because they add amps from the factory and know people will add accessories. It doesn't take much to exceed the alternator's capacity and if it melts, warranty will not cover it because it was caused by excessive load.

The places where I did/managed the installations had a lifetime warranty on their work and if it had been done wrong, we would never have had the time to do new jobs because of all of the failures. The system doesn't need to cost as much as the boat to need adequate power supply- they all need this and the two most important connections in any electric device are the power and ground.

The only thing that might reduce the need for upgrading the power supply is having a limit on how high the volume control goes and dialing the amp's sensitivity down (it's not a gain control). This limits power output and current draw. The problem is that there's a difference between saying this will happen and actually doing it.

Diesel
04-15-2008, 11:02 AM
Thanks JimN. I did a little reading last night over on the WakeWorld forum. It appears that there are a lot of variables to consider with regards to upgrading the alternator. It seemed to become fairly obvious that for a somewhat basic stereo comprised of 4 in-boat speakers, a single sub, a set of tower speakers, and 2 amplifiers, that it was recommended that one have a 100apm alternator (mine is 95amps). It only appeared that those using these 140amp alternator had these sound systems that cost almost as much as the boat. It was also almost 50/50 on whether or not people were installing a second battery with an "average" system. But, regardless of the type of stereo one has I am convinced that having a second battery is a must.

Before I do anything I will draw up a picture with specifics for people to look at and criticize for me. As I mentioned somewhere before, I am only in the planning stages for now. I haven't purchased a thing. I am kind of anal about this stuff. When I did my ballast and my heater, I had a really good plan to start with which made things go much more smoothly.

Would someone please confirm or correct me about the wires on the battery (reference the above picture).

Your alternator and factory wiring is completely adequate for what you are doing.

If it makes you feel better I can pull close to 175amps at full crank on my stereo and I am using the factory alternator and three batteries (05 MCX). Granted the system will only play for an hour or so at high volumes but the batteries refresh quickly once we start it up.

Leave everything hooked up the same as it is on the current battery. Buy a second battery (or replace both with matching batteries) add it to the starting battery per my diagram. Then just make sure all the stereo stuff is hooked up to the secondary battery. My head unit is the only draw on starting battery when the engine is off. I did this for simplicity and the draw from the head unit is negligible.

Diesel
04-15-2008, 11:05 AM
Would someone please confirm or correct me about the wires on the battery (reference the above picture).

No, you are wrong. The 2ga wire hooks directly to the starter which is wired directly to the alternator.....it's the engine harness. The smaller wire which connects to the circuit breaker is for the rest of the boat and connects to a binding post up under the dash.....it's the body harness. Just keep them hooked up exactly as they are now an you will be fine.

JimN
04-15-2008, 11:19 AM
Where is the 2ga cable?

Diesel
04-15-2008, 12:33 PM
Where is the 2ga cable?

The one labeled "starter" in the picture posted.

JimN
04-15-2008, 02:10 PM
Thanks- I didn't see it since it's hidden by the battery handle.

boofer
04-17-2008, 12:30 PM
Diesel,

Did you use a fuse dist. block between the battery and the amps?

Any thoughts on this isolator.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10001/269768/377%20710/0/blue%20sea/Primary%20Search/mode%20matchallpartial/0/0?N=377%20710&Ne=0&Ntt=blue%20sea&Ntk=Primary%20Search&Ntx=mode%20matchallpartial&Nao=0&Ns=0&keyword=blue%20sea&isLTokenURL=true&storeNum=5002&subdeptNum=9&classNum=119

JimN
04-17-2008, 01:08 PM
How were you thinking of connecting 1/0 cable to an amplifier? For the low cost, a dist block makes it very easy.

boofer
04-17-2008, 04:26 PM
Well Jim, I thought about peeling a few strands out of the wire for the amps. Just kidding. I am just making sure that I cover all of my bases and that I do not assume anything.

What do you think about that isolator? Without wiring in another switch, the only capability that I will not have with that isolator is the ability to use the second battery to augment the first battery for starting. But, I really do not see me ever having to do this under normal conditions. The main battery would be for engine/boat use only. I am also buying a jump start "box" since my last one bit the dust. In addition this is a marine specific isolator. It is waterproof and ignition safe (not that either of those are really factors in the planned location).