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coz
03-06-2008, 08:15 AM
I saw this article in the news this morning, I dunno but I wonder after reading this if all the religeous history was based on hallucinating stoners.:confused:

JERUSALEM (AFP) - High on Mount Sinai, Moses was on psychedelic drugs when he heard God deliver the Ten Commandments, an Israeli researcher claimed in a study published this week.

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Such mind-altering substances formed an integral part of the religious rites of Israelites in biblical times, Benny Shanon, a professor of cognitive psychology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem wrote in the Time and Mind journal of philosophy.

"As far Moses on Mount Sinai is concerned, it was either a supernatural cosmic event, which I don't believe, or a legend, which I don't believe either, or finally, and this is very probable, an event that joined Moses and the people of Israel under the effect of narcotics," Shanon told Israeli public radio on Tuesday.

Moses was probably also on drugs when he saw the "burning bush," suggested Shanon, who said he himself has dabbled with such substances.

"The Bible says people see sounds, and that is a clasic phenomenon," he said citing the example of religious ceremonies in the Amazon in which drugs are used that induce people to "see music."

He mentioned his own experience when he used ayahuasca, a powerful psychotropic plant, during a religious ceremony in Brazil's Amazon forest in 1991. "I experienced visions that had spiritual-religious connotations," Shanon said.

He said the psychedelic effects of ayahuasca were comparable to those produced by concoctions based on bark of the acacia tree, that is frequently mentioned in the Bible.

"story link here"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080304/od_afp/israelreligionoffbeat;_ylt=ArtT2FLw9K5h6N7iEfdhkBm s0NUE

TMCNo1
03-06-2008, 09:03 AM
It must be true, cause we've read it on the internet! Thanks Al Gore for inventing the Internet, who was probably stoned too!

TX.X-30 fan
03-06-2008, 09:13 AM
[QUOTE=coz]I saw this article in the news this morning, I dunno but I wonder after reading this if all the religeous history was based on hallucinating stoners.:confused:




Only muhamad on his bunch of lunatics! 32104

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2008, 09:22 AM
maybe he had some Maui Wowee......

TMCNo1
03-06-2008, 09:29 AM
He may have been inhaling the smoke from the burning bush, I dunno!32105

mrprostar
03-06-2008, 09:31 AM
This kind of "study" is a shame.

RexDog1
03-06-2008, 09:34 AM
Did someone say “stoned” http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_1.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZSYYYYYYMNUS)

coz
03-06-2008, 09:38 AM
Did someone say “stoned” http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_1.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZSYYYYYYMNUS)


I knew this would get the attention of the Cali Crew. :D

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2008, 09:42 AM
This kind of "study" is a shame.
Why is that?

coz
03-06-2008, 09:50 AM
Why is that?

I agree! why is fact finding a shame? :confused: I was always told sometimes the truth hurts. :(

flipper
03-06-2008, 10:01 AM
Did someone say “stoned” http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_1.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZSYYYYYYMNUS)

That's funny.....

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2008, 10:04 AM
I agree! why is fact finding a shame? :confused: I was always told sometimes the truth hurts. :(

I think the truth is nobody knows for sure about anything that happened that long ago. record keeping was not accurate, it was archaic, and just not an effective way of keeping information and carrying it thru time.

LKNMC
03-06-2008, 10:08 AM
you have got to be kidding me

TMCNo1
03-06-2008, 10:11 AM
I think the truth is nobody knows for sure about anything that happened that long ago. record keeping was not accurate, it was archaic, and just not an effective way of keeping information and carrying it thru time.


What, did everyone's hard drives crash????????:confused: :D

wakeX2wake
03-06-2008, 10:38 AM
I wouldn't insult that guys intelligence by asking him if honestly believes what came out of his mouth... (sorry jacked that from somebody's signature on here... funny stuff applies great here)

I mean really what we have here is a stoner... who attends a few philosophy classes... and decides that all the great religious leaders of the bible were all crack heads like him b/c he has had similar experiences when he was messed up... GIVE ME A BREAK!!!

captain planet
03-06-2008, 10:49 AM
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2008, 10:52 AM
I wouldn't insult that guys intelligence by asking him if honestly believes what came out of his mouth... (sorry jacked that from somebody's signature on here... funny stuff applies great here)

I mean really what we have here is a stoner... who attends a few philosophy classes... and decides that all the great religious leaders of the bible were all crack heads like him b/c he has had similar experiences when he was messed up... GIVE ME A BREAK!!!
it could happen.


how do we really know?

wakeX2wake
03-06-2008, 10:59 AM
not saying it COULDN'T.... i just have a really hard time believing that thousands of years of religious beliefs and culture are based off some guys getting stoned all the time and having these great visions... i would like to think that at some point in all of the development of the Christian faith that somebody would have pulled the plug on that one... you kind of like someone did on David Koresh

coz
03-06-2008, 11:11 AM
not saying it COULDN'T.... i just have a really hard time believing that thousands of years of religious beliefs and culture are based off some guys getting stoned all the time and having these great visions... i would like to think that at some point in all of the development of the Christian faith that somebody would have pulled the plug on that one... you kind of like someone did on David Koresh


I'm not forming an opinion here after all this was done by an Israeli researcher (probably not raised a christian :confused: ) but these are heavy accusations that have been reported to the world so I think it will be up to the religeous community to prove he's full of shalom. :D

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2008, 11:12 AM
what about poor record keeping or embellishing of stories handed down over time?

I remember my dad telling me of lessons he did when he was a teacher. he would give one student a written story at one corner of a classroom and tell them to quiety repeat it to the student behind them and so on while he was leacturing about something else. when the story reached the other end of the classroom in 10 or 15 minutes time, he would ask that student to stand up and recite that story to the classroom. the student did, and when the student was finished, he asked the first student to read the original story to the class and it didnt even remotely resemble the passed on story. neat lesson. he did this numerous times with the same results. think that could have happend through thousands of years time?

wakeX2wake
03-06-2008, 11:18 AM
without a doubt it did... which is why it is important to keep everything in context and not focus on details of the story vs what we should take from stories and tales of ancient times... but i'm just saying i'm going to keep my faith in what the bible tells me vs some Isralei stoner w/ a degree (which are not that hard to come by)... through the test of time if something in BS it will come out and what Moses said has passed more tests than anything anyone here will say

TMCNo1
03-06-2008, 11:23 AM
what about poor record keeping or embellishing of stories handed down over time?

I remember my dad telling me of lessons he did when he was a teacher. he would give one student a written story at one corner of a classroom and tell them to quiety repeat it to the student behind them and so on while he was leacturing about something else. when the story reached the other end of the classroom in 10 or 15 minutes time, he would ask that student to stand up and recite that story to the classroom. the student did, and when the student was finished, he asked the first student to read the original story to the class and it didnt even remotely resemble the passed on story. neat lesson. he did this numerous times with the same results. think that could have happend through thousands of years time?


That happens here on Team Talk all the time!
Look what happened to this thread, http://www.tmcowners.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=21873 in just 4 days!

GreenSpirit Hydro
03-06-2008, 11:54 AM
I think you would have to be very naive to dismiss the idea that thousands of years ago wise men, prophets, sages, ext were using various plants and fungi's' to heighten their senses and communicate with their gods and higher powers. These pratices have been documented and were passed down for just as long from all parts of the world. I highly doubt we climbed down from the trees, stood upright and begin hypothesizing the world at large w/ out some mind altering aids.

TMCNo1
03-06-2008, 12:01 PM
National Geographic, Discovery Channel documentaries, among others, show present day natives using mind altering stuff for the giggles of it and as part of their culture. Or, maybe Tarzans mama and daddy had a dime bag on the plane that crashed and got the natives hooked!

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2008, 12:40 PM
I think you would have to be very naive to dismiss the idea that thousands of years ago wise men, prophets, sages, ext were using various plants and fungi's' to heighten their senses and communicate with their gods and higher powers. These pratices have been documented and were passed down for just as long from all parts of the world. I highly doubt we climbed down from the trees, stood upright and begin hypothesizing the world at large w/ out some mind altering aids.

Werd .

coz
03-06-2008, 12:51 PM
Or, maybe Tarzans mama and daddy had a dime bag on the plane that crashed and got the natives hooked!


Those two always had the best schtuff! :cool:

Jorski
03-06-2008, 01:14 PM
I'm not forming an opinion here after all this was done by an Israeli researcher (probably not raised a christian ) but these are heavy accusations that have been reported to the world so I think it will be up to the religeous community to prove he's full of shalom

Funny. Moses was jewish, so was Jesus. yet you put down the researchers opinion as flawed because he is also jewish. As I am sure you are aware, it is called the Judaio-Christian Bible for a reason. Listen, feel free to disagre with anyone's opinion regarding religion, just don't base your reaction to the message based upon the meesenger's particular religion.

Maristar210
03-06-2008, 01:22 PM
Funny. Moses was jewish, so was Jesus. yet you put down the researchers opinion as flawed because he is also jewish. As I am sure you are aware, it is called the Judaio-Christian Bible for a reason. Listen, feel free to disagre with anyone's opinion regarding religion, just don't base your reaction to the message based upon the meesenger's particular religion.


Oh Brother :D

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2008, 01:24 PM
HI Steve! :wavey:

Do you get stoned when you go looking for your lost brass hammer?

MC2000190
03-06-2008, 01:35 PM
Think about Pink Floyd and The Wizard of Oz Man!!!!!!!!! Crazy!!!!!!!!!!

coz
03-06-2008, 01:46 PM
Funny. Moses was jewish, so was Jesus. yet you put down the researchers opinion as flawed because he is also jewish. As I am sure you are aware, it is called the Judaio-Christian Bible for a reason. Listen, feel free to disagre with anyone's opinion regarding religion, just don't base your reaction to the message based upon the meesenger's particular religion.


I don't think you read what I said :confused: I don't have an opinion and didn't put down this researchers opinion or say anything was flawed because he's jewish. I don't give a darn if he's jewish, muslim or christian he says he found out this info so :woohoo: for him now the christians need to prove him wrong. :uglyhamme
Now I'm gonna go get stoned and do some research I'll be back with my findings :headbang:

wakeX2wake
03-06-2008, 01:52 PM
specualtion... there are a lot of things we'll never know or be able to prove right ro wrong... i speculate that Elvis came down on a space ship and helped the Egyptians build the pyramids... can't prove me wrong b/c there's no evidence that it did or didn't happen... same deal w/ Moses... I choose to believe that Moses followed the teachings or his faith and didn't get himself messes up before making any prophecy or passing down any guidelines that helped shape the religions he's influenced... that's more or less what i choose to believe on the subject i guess everyone is entitled to their own interpretation no matter how chemically enhanced their opinion is

Harvey
03-06-2008, 01:54 PM
not saying it COULDN'T.... i just have a really hard time believing that thousands of years of religious beliefs and culture are based off some guys getting stoned all the time and having these great visions... i would like to think that at some point in all of the development of the Christian faith that somebody would have pulled the plug on that one... you kind of like someone did on David Koresh

I guess I will stir the pot, let's call it food for thought. So, if I believe my religion (belief system) to be correct, by the nature of that belief I am forced to believe all the other religions (belief systems) are incorrect. Doesn't that leave the believer in a bit of a logical problem? If the reason I discount the validity of another religion is based on mind altering substances used thousands of years ago to come to it's modern day ideology then don't I have to accept that it's possible my beliefs could have been derived in a similar fashion? To add to this, ANY reason or fault I find with another belief system used to discount my belief in that system and reinforce my belief in my religion of choice, forces me to accept that my religion could contain a similar fault or reason thus negating my belief in it. An example would be that I find the Koran to be incorrect becuase it was written with outside influence, if that is possible then I am forced to accept that my Bible could have been tainted with outside influence.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2008, 01:56 PM
Think about Pink Floyd and The Wizard of Oz Man!!!!!!!!! Crazy!!!!!!!!!!
Got to keep the loonies on the path.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2008, 02:03 PM
so many religions and so little time. I cant study them all. how do we know which one is right? they all claim to be. Just like political candidates and used car salesman. they all claim to be the best and have superior "product" compared to the next guy. How do we KNOW which religion is correct? and which ones used drugs? I hope at least one of our planet's religions was sober.

Jorski
03-06-2008, 02:03 PM
The researcher's opinion seems to me to be just as plausible the existence of a mystic knob turner.;)

Trent 197
03-06-2008, 02:03 PM
without a doubt it did... which is why it is important to keep everything in context and not focus on details of the story vs what we should take from stories and tales of ancient times... but i'm just saying i'm going to keep my faith in what the bible tells me vs some Isralei stoner w/ a degree (which are not that hard to come by)... through the test of time if something in BS it will come out and what Moses said has passed more tests than anything anyone here will say



There are plenty of fallacies that have withstood the test of time. The misconception that the world was flat stood for a 1000 years before disproven. The "test of time" should not be the only gauge for truth.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2008, 02:04 PM
The researcher's opinion seems to me to be just as plausible the existence of a mystic knob turner.;)
but, how do we really know if he is wrong or right?

Maristar210
03-06-2008, 02:07 PM
I am the great OZ

Harvey
03-06-2008, 02:08 PM
If I only had a brain!

Jorski
03-06-2008, 02:09 PM
but, how do we really know if he is wrong or right?

We don't. But why drop a little sumpem sumpen and stare at a bush !

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2008, 02:09 PM
yea, your the great oz. How do I KNOW that for sure? are you stoned? am I stoned? I thought you said that this was top notch stuff.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2008, 02:09 PM
We don't. But why drop a little sumpem sumpen and stare at a bush !
are you trying to say Jesus Christ cant hit a curveball?

wakeX2wake
03-06-2008, 02:10 PM
I guess I will stir the pot, let's call it food for thought. So, if I believe my religion (belief system) to be correct, by the nature of that belief I am forced to believe all the other religions (belief systems) are incorrect. Doesn't that leave the believer in a bit of a logical problem? If the reason I discount the validity of another religion is based on mind altering substances used thousands of years ago to come to it's modern day ideology then don't I have to accept that it's possible my beliefs could have been derived in a similar fashion? To add to this, ANY reason or fault I find with another belief system used to discount my belief in that system and reinforce my belief in my religion of choice, forces me to accept that my religion could contain a similar fault or reason thus negating my belief in it. An example would be that I find the Koran to be incorrect becuase it was written with outside influence, if that is possible then I am forced to accept that my Bible could have been tainted with outside influence.

point well taken... and i wouldn't dare tell anyone what they should or shouldn't think... i just think it is fair that everyone be able to see the forrest for the trees... again why i'm no prophet by any stretch of the imagination... i just know that b/c some guy has come out of the wood work and makes a statement against the foundations of a given religious belief that people will automatically assume it to be factual b/c he's a said "expert" in his field... when what a person believes is completely up them and their (here's the word) faith... I cannot honestly believe through all the years and questions and battles over the origins of all the belief systems that we would just now be hearing about this... i mean there were whistle blowers in mobs back then too... "HEY THE GUY LEADING US JEWS OUT OF EXILE IS A STONER... MAYBE WE SHOULD GET BOB UP THERE AND LET HIM LEAD FOR A WHILE"... I'm thinking that a logical somewhat intelligent group of people would have been able to see through the crap if there any crap there... they did follow the guy through the desert for 40 yrs or something right?

Monte
03-06-2008, 02:11 PM
I am the great OZ

So you want UMP and three of his buddies to go kill the witch and bring back her broom:confused:

Maristar210
03-06-2008, 02:12 PM
"I hate those Illinois Nazi's"

Maristar210
03-06-2008, 02:12 PM
So you want UMP and three of his buddies to go kill the witch and bring back her broom:confused:

Is my ex around Monte?

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2008, 02:13 PM
they did follow the guy through the desert for 40 yrs or something right?
But how do we really know that? what if the people that recorded that bit of info were mistaken, or someone misheard them.... you get the point. how do we know that information is accurate? just as the info this guy is trying to say about Moses puffing the cheeba.....how do we know thats accurate?

Maristar210
03-06-2008, 02:13 PM
are you trying to say Jesus Christ cant hit a curveball?


No No it's a slider Jesus can't hit. Peter couldn't hit a curve ball worth a ****, remember?

Monte
03-06-2008, 02:14 PM
Is my ex around Monte?

ex brass hammer? sure, have it right here.. Bought it off some weirdo in a cape:rolleyes:

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2008, 02:14 PM
So you want UMP and three of his buddies to go kill the witch and bring back her broom:confused:
I just wanna get stoned and watch the movie again. that was great.

Maristar210
03-06-2008, 02:15 PM
ex brass hammer? sure, have it right here.. Bought it off some weirdo in a cape:rolleyes:


No ex wawawife Monte, I don't own a hammer :D

Monte
03-06-2008, 02:16 PM
I don't own a hammer :D

Not anymore... I do:rolleyes:

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2008, 02:17 PM
ENOUGH you two. back on topic. you cant thread jack like that.

Monte
03-06-2008, 02:17 PM
No ex wawawife Monte

Was she green and sport a very long crooked nose with a mole??

Maristar210
03-06-2008, 02:18 PM
So lets get this straight

I hate Illinois Nazi's

UMP likes puffing the Cheeba

Monte think my ex wife is a brass hammer

Jesus can't hit a slider but he can knock the **** out of a straight change

Peter can't hit a curve ball

and if the train doesn't make it by 8:00 Suzy will lose $.05 to Tommy and **** herself on the train.

Is that right?

6ballsisall
03-06-2008, 02:18 PM
:popcorn: :popcorn: :noface:

wakeX2wake
03-06-2008, 02:25 PM
But how do we really know that? what if the people that recorded that bit of info were mistaken, or someone misheard them.... you get the point. how do we know that information is accurate? just as the info this guy is trying to say about Moses puffing the cheeba.....how do we know thats accurate?

we don't... or i don't for sure it goes back to the part i said about to paying too much attention to the details and what we should take from the stories and parables... ok i'm done i like where these guys are going w/ this thread... the last time i talked this much about religion i was drunk out of my mind on a camping trip and someone started talking about it...

Trent 197
03-06-2008, 02:27 PM
point well taken... and i wouldn't dare tell anyone what they should or shouldn't think... i just think it is fair that everyone be able to see the forrest for the trees... again why i'm no prophet by any stretch of the imagination... i just know that b/c some guy has come out of the wood work and makes a statement against the foundations of a given religious belief that people will automatically assume it to be factual b/c he's a said "expert" in his field... when what a person believes is completely up them and their (here's the word) faith... I cannot honestly believe through all the years and questions and battles over the origins of all the belief systems that we would just now be hearing about this... i mean there were whistle blowers in mobs back then too... "HEY THE GUY LEADING US JEWS OUT OF EXILE IS A STONER... MAYBE WE SHOULD GET BOB UP THERE AND LET HIM LEAD FOR A WHILE"... I'm thinking that a logical somewhat intelligent group of people would have been able to see through the crap if there any crap there... they did follow the guy through the desert for 40 yrs or something right?


Come on Auburn, you can't base your arguements on whether you think that a group of people circa 3000 years ago would or would not follow one guy or the next for what reason. And I don't believe anyone would agree that this dude is the first to come up with this theory. I've been thinking about this for years. The facts are that the Catholic church ruled and oppressed the West from the downfall of the Roman Empire to the Enlightment, and during that time they could have concocted any idea that was advantageous to them or suppressed any idea that wasn't.

"Who controls the past, controls the future"
"Who controls the present, controls the past"

- Orwell, "1984"

wakeX2wake
03-06-2008, 02:35 PM
not aruging that the Catholic Church for 100s of years led people astray and made up their own brand of the Christian faith... again it's back to the fact that anyone... thankfully in the country... can believe what they want... and i interpret things in the as I see they were meant to be interpreted and that's why I don't necessarily feel the need to sit in church every Sunday and be spoon fed what I believe... there's not an explanation for everything... that's where you have to put your faith in something or someone else

Trent 197
03-06-2008, 02:38 PM
Well, I can agree with that.

flipper
03-06-2008, 02:39 PM
This needs to be made into a poll:

1. yes, moses toked

2. no, moses didn't toke

3. ump option.....I wonder if they had stuff as good as I get?

6ballsisall
03-06-2008, 02:40 PM
Tick, Tick,Tick, Tick...........:rolleyes:

wakeX2wake
03-06-2008, 02:42 PM
This needs to be made into a poll:

1. yes, moses toked

2. no, moses didn't toke

3. ump option.....I wonder if they had stuff as good as I get?

i've been missing the more intriguing question here apparently... talk about seeing the forrest for the trees

Sodar
03-06-2008, 02:43 PM
This is a little off topic, but does anyone know what hossier bob is drinking? UMP and I wanted to know...

TMCNo1
03-06-2008, 02:43 PM
I had a kidney stone one time, does that mean I was stoned too?

wakeX2wake
03-06-2008, 02:44 PM
This is a little off topic, but does anyone know what hossier bob is drinking? UMP and I wanted to know...

i don't know but i think i want some...

Maristar210
03-06-2008, 02:48 PM
So is it the nazi's? The damn Illinois nazi's?

Maristar210
03-06-2008, 02:53 PM
"Well I think that's enough about the fly by's"

"Gentlemen, you had a hell of a first day"

wakeX2wake
03-06-2008, 03:04 PM
i think i need a hug

flipper
03-06-2008, 03:11 PM
Here, have a few....



32125

wakeX2wake
03-06-2008, 03:13 PM
what would i do w/o teamtalk?... well i'd be bored as crap at work for one...

mrprostar
03-06-2008, 03:21 PM
Why is that?


Its a shame because its bogus. He has no credibility and no real facts. This could easily turn into another religious discussion that people here seem to get upset about, but some guy doing research on the history of narcotics does not mean he knows what Moses went through thousands and thousands of years ago.

captain planet
03-06-2008, 03:22 PM
are you trying to say Jesus Christ cant hit a curveball?
"Ahhh, Hey-sus...I like him very much, but he cannot help with curve-ball."

are you trying to say Jesus Christ cant hit a curveball

"Ahh, Harris. Don't turn this into a holy war."

"You better watch leaving that rum sitting around with this bunch."

"It is very bad to take Jo-bu's rum........VERY Bad."

"Hey bartender, Jo-bu needs a refill!"

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Maristar210
03-06-2008, 03:26 PM
"Ahhh, Hey-sus...I like him very much, but he cannot help with curve-ball."

are you trying to say Jesus Christ cant hit a curveball

"Ahh, Harris. Don't turn this into a holy war."

"You better watch leaving that rum sitting around with this bunch."

"It is very bad to take Jo-bu's rum........VERY Bad."

"Hey bartender, Jo-bu needs a refill!"

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:


Maybe we should sacrifice a live chicken?

Harvey
03-06-2008, 03:26 PM
i think i need a hug

This ultimately comes down to the fundamental difference between belief and knowledge. You can believe whatever the heck you want but if someone ever claims they know something about religion I am going to show them that they dont "know" anything they just believe it. There is a HUGE difference.

As far as this article goes, unless this guy has a cup of Moses' urine/blood to test for drugs then he will never KNOW that moses was stoned. Instead he can only believe it.

:twocents: I believe that it is possible for Moses to have been stoned, in fact it is probably even likely but in truth that matters not. The only thing that matters is that I believe in what I believe. And I believe that UMP has the best $%*t in three counties! :D

captain planet
03-06-2008, 03:27 PM
Maybe we should sacrifice a live chicken?
"I can't have people puking in the locker room before the game, I'll think of something." 8p

Harvey
03-06-2008, 03:28 PM
queue the bucket of fried chicken!!!

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2008, 03:30 PM
Its a shame because its bogus. He has no credibility and no real facts. This could easily turn into another religious discussion that people here seem to get upset about, but some guy doing research on the history of narcotics does not mean he knows what Moses went through thousands and thousands of years ago.
But this is just another example of things that we dont really know. We dont really know anything as a race of human beings. who knows what really happened in history?

one must question, for when we dont question we stop moving forward as a species.

Maristar210
03-06-2008, 03:30 PM
"Where you going meat?"

"Bout 90 feet"

coz
03-06-2008, 03:32 PM
i guess everyone is entitled to their own interpretation no matter how chemically enhanced their opinion is

So after sitting in my garage with my boat and bong doing research I was trip'n so hard I parted my pool to get to a burning bush in my yard then Noah and the gang were pulling me on my wakeboard behind the Ark and we were looking for Moses's 10 item honey do list :confused:
So ya never know, more research needed, have a nice day boys & girls. :D

wakeX2wake
03-06-2008, 03:32 PM
thank you... i guess i just took longer to get my point across... i'm ready to get off work and go get drank... can i say that on here

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2008, 03:33 PM
This ultimately comes down to the fundamental difference between belief and knowledge. You can believe whatever the heck you want but if someone ever claims they know something about religion I am going to show them that they dont "know" anything they just believe it. There is a HUGE difference.

As far as this article goes, unless this guy has a cup of Moses' urine/blood to test for drugs then he will never KNOW that moses was stoned. Instead he can only believe it.

:twocents: I believe that it is possible for Moses to have been stoned, in fact it is probably even likely but in truth that matters not. The only thing that matters is that I believe in what I believe. And I believe that UMP has the best $%*t in three counties! :D


Just like Airborne. some people believe it works to prevent the common cold. Science says it does not have any data to prove that.

so Religion is just a "placebo" for us as human beings then. a placebo for our souls. a generic reinforcment justifying our own beliefs no matter what they are.

Maristar210
03-06-2008, 03:34 PM
But this is just another example of things that we dont really know. We dont really know anything as a race of human beings. who knows what really happened in history?

one must question, for when we dont question we stop moving forward as a species.


How do you know you're really here right now? Maybe this is all a dream....

"Dude, did you hear that? That was my skull!!!!"

wakeX2wake
03-06-2008, 03:34 PM
So after sitting in my garage with my boat and bong doing research I was trip'n so hard I parted my pool to get to a burning bush in my yard then Noah and the gang were pulling me on my wakeboard behind the Ark and we were looking for Moses's 10 item honey do list :confused:
So ya never know, more research needed, have a nice day boys & girls. :D

LOL!!! i was wandering if anybody actually read that

RexDog1
03-06-2008, 03:37 PM
I am the great OZ



Hay I know that dude http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_7.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZSYYYYYYMNUS)

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2008, 03:41 PM
How do you know you're really here right now? Maybe this is all a dream....

"Dude, did you hear that? That was my skull!!!!"
See STeve, thats the real point. we dont know **** as a race. we really dont. we only really KNOW what we have proved with technology. we can philosophize and hypothesize all we want, but we have no proof of anything. nobody really knows where we came from or how the universe started. Religion is just a collection of beliefs from different social subdivisions. which one is right? which is real? there are many religions, but none have any proof of anything. they all believe their way is right, and the others are wrong. none of them have any real proof to back up their opinions. the one characteristic that sets us apart from all other living things on this planet is our ability to reason, and to question. other living things on this planet basically know 3 things, how to eat to survive, how to try to escape danger to stay alive, and how to procreate to send their species into the future. we are the only ones that posess any advance thought process.

Maristar210
03-06-2008, 03:42 PM
See STeve, thats the real point. we dont know **** as a race. we really dont. we only really KNOW what we have proved with technology. we can philosophize and hypothesize all we want, but we have no proof of anything. nobody really knows where we came from or how the universe started. Religion is just a collection of beliefs from different social subdivisions. which one is right? which is real? there are many religions, but none have any proof of anything. they all believe their way is right, and the others are wrong. none of them have any real proof to back up their opinions. the one characteristic that sets us apart from all other living things on this planet is our ability to reason, and to question. other living things on this planet basically know 3 things, how to eat to survive, how to try to escape danger to stay alive, and how to procreate to send their species into the future. we are the only ones that posess any advance thought process.

Chuck Norris knows. That ****er knows everything.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2008, 03:45 PM
Chuck Norris knows. That ****er knows everything.
Steve dont throw Chuck Norris into this. Not now. that could reinvent this whole thread if you know what I mean.

wakeX2wake
03-06-2008, 03:46 PM
exactly what we're all afraid of

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2008, 04:05 PM
Chuck Norris has his place in history, but not in this discussion. back to topic gents.

fintek9
03-06-2008, 04:08 PM
So you want UMP and three of his buddies to go kill the witch and bring back her broom:confused:You can have the broom but I want her monkeys.

captain planet
03-06-2008, 04:09 PM
"Where you going meat?"

"Bout 90 feet"
"kind of hard to get there when your shoes untied."

......

"That's my ex-fiance, but who's that guy she's with?"

"I don't know, he's not wearing a name-tag."

Monte
03-06-2008, 04:10 PM
You can have the broom but I want her monkeys.


Why:confused: :rolleyes:

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2008, 04:15 PM
"kind of hard to get there when your shoes untied."

......

"That's my ex-fiance, but who's that guy she's with?"

"I don't know, he's not wearing a name-tag."
"want me to drag him outside, kick the **** out of him for you?" - Rick Vaughn

Trent 197
03-06-2008, 04:24 PM
See STeve, thats the real point. we dont know **** as a race. we really dont. we only really KNOW what we have proved with technology. we can philosophize and hypothesize all we want, but we have no proof of anything. nobody really knows where we came from or how the universe started. Religion is just a collection of beliefs from different social subdivisions. which one is right? which is real? there are many religions, but none have any proof of anything. they all believe their way is right, and the others are wrong. none of them have any real proof to back up their opinions. the one characteristic that sets us apart from all other living things on this planet is our ability to reason, and to question. other living things on this planet basically know 3 things, how to eat to survive, how to try to escape danger to stay alive, and how to procreate to send their species into the future. we are the only ones that posess any advance thought process.


I think on some level all other animals "reason", though our ability to do so is boundless in comparison.

Maristar210
03-06-2008, 04:25 PM
Hello, everybody, Harry Doyle bidding
you a Wahoo welcome from beautiful
Municipal Stadium, where tonight
before a capacity crowd of 75,000
screaming featherheads, the braves
of the Cuyahoga will leave their
teepees in search of Cleveland's
first League Championship in over 30
years.

TMCNo1
03-06-2008, 04:28 PM
So after sitting in my garage with my boat and bong doing research I was trip'n so hard I parted my pool to get to a burning bush in my yard then Noah and the gang were pulling me on my wakeboard behind the Ark and we were looking for Moses's 10 item honey do list :confused:
So ya never know, more research needed, have a nice day boys & girls. :D


That's funny, gib me nuther toke!:D

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2008, 04:29 PM
I think on some level all other animals "reason", though our ability to do so is boundless in comparison.
yes, I see your point. I meant that no other animals can reason or question our existance like humans.

altough there is another thing that separates us from animals: Greed.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2008, 04:32 PM
Hello, everybody, Harry Doyle bidding
you a Wahoo welcome from beautiful
Municipal Stadium, where tonight
before a capacity crowd of 75,000
screaming featherheads, the braves
of the Cuyahoga will leave their
teepees in search of Cleveland's
first League Championship in over 30
years.

"I hate that ****** song." - Racheal Phelps

pq2
03-06-2008, 04:49 PM
UMP, you should talk with the Minister that I´ve being seeing for my confirmation (need the confirmation to get married). I will tell him to get in to TT to get this clear 8p

Trent 197
03-06-2008, 04:51 PM
yes, I see your point. I meant that no other animals can reason or question our existance like humans.

altough there is another thing that separates us from animals: Greed.


I knew you might say that. I had this same discussion with my brother a few months back. I think on some level animals can be greedy too. He disagrees. I think greed is some indirect human version of survival of the fittest. If some wolf pups will not let their sibling feed, are they greedy for their mother's milk? If one dog steals a toy away from another dog, is it greedy for that toy? If I don't wish to give handouts to the needy, I'm I greedy with my money?

flipper
03-06-2008, 04:55 PM
UMP, you should talk with the Minister that I´ve being seeing for my confirmation (need the confirmation to get married). I will tell him to get in to TT to get this clear 8p

Does he puff the cheeba?

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2008, 04:56 PM
UMP, you should talk with the Minister that I´ve being seeing for my confirmation (need the confirmation to get married). I will tell him to get in to TT to get this clear 8p
why does he know the answers? I mean really know them? can he back up what he says?

pq2
03-06-2008, 05:00 PM
dont ask me, I think the same way you do, but is funny that this thread has come up, while im in this things, and for sure im not going to arge with him, I respect what everyone thinks and believes because I like people to respect what I think and I believe.

captain planet
03-06-2008, 05:00 PM
Hello, everybody, Harry Doyle bidding
you a Wahoo welcome from beautiful
Municipal Stadium, where tonight
before a capacity crowd of 75,000
screaming featherheads, the braves
of the Cuyahoga will leave their
teepees in search of Cleveland's
first League Championship in over 30
years.
".....well tonight the Indians have wha...one hit?! One godd*** HIT!?"

"You can't say godd*** on the air."

"Oh it doesn't matter, nobody's listening anyway."

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2008, 05:17 PM
Does he puff the cheeba?
He better if he wants me to listen to him.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2008, 05:17 PM
dont ask me, I think the same way you do, but is funny that this thread has come up, while im in this things, and for sure im not going to arge with him, I respect what everyone thinks and believes because I like people to respect what I think and I believe.
Do you still look like Murdoch from the A team?

Bruce
03-06-2008, 05:28 PM
I don't think you read what I said :confused: I don't have an opinion and didn't put down this researchers opinion or say anything was flawed because he's jewish. I don't give a darn if he's jewish, muslim or christian he says he found out this info so :woohoo: for him now the christians need to prove him wrong. :uglyhamme
Now I'm gonna go get stoned and do some research I'll be back with my findings :headbang:
"Now the Christians have to prove him wrong" You can't be serious! We don't have to prove anything. This yo yo is welcome to think what he wishes. If he want's proof let him supply it!!!

Bruce
03-06-2008, 05:34 PM
I agree! why is fact finding a shame? :confused: I was always told sometimes the truth hurts. :(

"The truth" !!! I'm curious, What makes this the truth? As the good Colonel said " The truth! You can't handle the truth!"

pq2
03-06-2008, 05:40 PM
Do you still look like Murdoch from the A team?

I just need a blue hat

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2008, 05:51 PM
"The truth" !!! I'm curious, What makes this the truth? As the good Colonel said " The truth! You can't handle the truth!"
the GOOD colonel? how can he been "good" when he ordered the code red?

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2008, 05:52 PM
"Now the Christians have to prove him wrong" You can't be serious! We don't have to prove anything. This yo yo is welcome to think what he wishes. If he want's proof let him supply it!!!
thats a double standard. why should he have to prove something, where Christians do not?

shepherd
03-06-2008, 06:06 PM
You guys are totally missing the point. God put psychedelic drugs on this planet to provide a means of communication with Him. The Government doesn't want us to have access to these drugs because they would give us access to God. Therefore, the Government is obviously an evil instrument of Satan. :rolleyes: :noface:

(and UMP is the devil, who occasionally appears from the dark side to cause trouble ;) )

shepherd
03-06-2008, 06:06 PM
thats a double standard. why should he have to prove something, where Christians do not?

When you have FAITH, you don't need PROOF!

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2008, 06:08 PM
When you have FAITH, you don't need PROOF!
what if he has faith? then who is correct?

ALL religions have faith, but which one is "right" ????

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2008, 06:10 PM
You guys are totally missing the point. God put psychedelic drugs on this planet to provide a means of communication with Him. The Government doesn't want us to have access to these drugs because they would give us access to God. Therefore, the Government is obviously an evil instrument of Satan. :rolleyes: :noface:

(and UMP is the devil, who occasionally appears from the dark side to cause trouble ;) )

as the song says, "I have only come here seeking knowledge, things they would not teach me of in college."

just looking for answers shep. that's how I'm built.

shepherd
03-06-2008, 06:20 PM
as the song says, "I have only come here seeking knowledge, things they would not teach me of in college."

just looking for answers shep. that's how I'm built.

just messing with ya Sting! :D

Bruce
03-06-2008, 06:26 PM
the GOOD colonel? how can he been "good" when he ordered the code red?
Word games? You can do better than that!

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2008, 06:27 PM
just messing with ya Sting! :D

"I will listen hard to your tuition, you will see it come to its fruition."

Bruce
03-06-2008, 06:27 PM
thats a double standard. why should he have to prove something, where Christians do not?
Read it again. If I have to explain it you miss the point completely.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2008, 06:32 PM
Word games? You can do better than that!
he was bad.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-06-2008, 06:33 PM
Read it again. If I have to explain it you miss the point completely.
I guess you have to explain it then.

LakePirate
03-06-2008, 10:40 PM
Got to love the thoughts rummaging through this place.

Couple of logs to throw on the fire.

1) Had the Battle of Tours gone the other way we would all have little rugs in the trunks of our cabs.

2) To continue w/ this theme - The winners write the History books - see the war of northern aggression.

3) It is accepted that religion, from it's earliest days, has always been a method for man to explain the unexplainable. This goes from the early tribes in the middle east to the Greeks, Romans and Norsemen to the televangelists that litter the television on Sundays before the race.

Religious leaders are followed because they have access to what the masses want. They have also always kept things from their followers so that they maintain control. Is is so far fetched to believe that Moses figured out that he could eat those Smurf houses off that cow patty and would talk to God? All it would take is one follower to try the wrong mushroom and die to further entrench the belief that Moses was enlightened.

Keep on 'Shroomin

shepherd
03-06-2008, 11:07 PM
To continue w/ this theme - The winners write the History books - see the war of northern aggression.


The South started that war. Poor misguided fools... :rolleyes:

TMCNo1
03-07-2008, 06:19 AM
The South started that war. Poor misguided fools... :rolleyes:


And look what war does, the North whipped the South, but the South still has Florida and the USA whipped Japan and now we drive Toyotas., go figure, all the Northerners are in Florida driving Toyotas! I don't understand!:rolleyes:

tommcat
03-07-2008, 07:36 AM
personally i think the possibility that moses was high as a kite and was on a great trip makes more sense than any other theory. it's certainly more believable than whats in the bible.

tommcat
03-07-2008, 07:37 AM
funny how upset religious people get when another explanation is offered

TMCNo1
03-07-2008, 08:21 AM
funny how upset religious people get when another explanation is offered

Much like the threads on here on how to remove a raw waterpump impeller!:rolleyes: :D

TMCNo1
03-07-2008, 08:25 AM
personally i think the possibility that moses was high as a kite and was on a great trip makes more sense than any other theory. it's certainly more believable than whats in the bible.

Good point maybe, I would prefer to get stoned before trying to grease my steering cable, without reading the owners manual to see where it's suppose to be greased!:cool: :D

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-07-2008, 08:26 AM
personally i think the possibility that moses was high as a kite and was on a great trip makes more sense than any other theory. it's certainly more believable than whats in the bible.

well, Tommy Chong said that he played Black Sabbath at 78 speed and he saw God. so who knows.

shepherd
03-07-2008, 08:36 AM
well, Tommy Chong said that he played Black Sabbath at 78 speed and he saw God. so who knows.

But if you played an Elvis 45 at 33 speed, what would you see? :confused:

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-07-2008, 08:51 AM
But if you played an Elvis 45 at 33 speed, what would you see? :confused:
Tommy Chong.

TX.X-30 fan
03-07-2008, 09:15 AM
Great points here we have no need for religion. Lets keep steaming ahead on our present course. The removal of religion from our country is working splendidly wouldn't you agree boys?

Rampant drug abuse
Teen pregnancies
Soaring crime
Child abuse
Nonexisitant morality
School shootings daily

Wow I could go on and on, sh!t we got it all figured out lets keep rolling!


http://saynotogod.org/ Please support our cause!!!!!

Maristar210
03-07-2008, 09:19 AM
Great points here we have no need for religion. Lets keep steaming ahead on our present course. The removal of religion from our country is working splendidly wouldn't you agree boys?

Rampant drug abuse
Teen pregnancies
Soaring crime
Child abuse
Nonexisitant morality
School shootings daily

Wow I could go on and on, sh!t we got it all figured out lets keep rolling!


http://saynotogod.org/ Please support our cause!!!!!


Stewart, What are you doing trying to keep this thread on track.

I say damn the torpedos, full steam ahead with the THREADJACK

(I hate Illinois Nazi's)

TX.X-30 fan
03-07-2008, 09:30 AM
Stewart, What are you doing trying to keep this thread on track.

I say damn the torpedos, full steam ahead with the THREADJACK

(I hate Illinois Nazi's)




OK


32159

32160

coz
03-07-2008, 09:44 AM
Great points here we have no need for religion. Lets keep steaming ahead on our present course. The removal of religion from our country is working splendidly wouldn't you agree boys?

Rampant drug abuse
Teen pregnancies
Soaring crime
Child abuse
Nonexisitant morality
School shootings daily

Wow I could go on and on, sh!t we got it all figured out lets keep rolling!


http://saynotogod.org/ Please support our cause!!!!!

http://web.mac.com/saynotogod/iWeb/SayNoToGod.org/Home_files/MMOH.png
http://web.mac.com/saynotogod/iWeb/SayNoToGod.org/Home_files/inauguration-protest-athiests.png
http://web.mac.com/saynotogod/iWeb/SayNoToGod.org/Home_files/droppedImage.png

I didn't think it would come to this :confused:

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-07-2008, 09:47 AM
Steve, hating Illinois Nazi's isnt going to solve anything. we dont hate.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-07-2008, 09:48 AM
Great points here we have no need for religion. Lets keep steaming ahead on our present course. The removal of religion from our country is working splendidly wouldn't you agree boys?

Rampant drug abuse
Teen pregnancies
Soaring crime
Child abuse
Nonexisitant morality
School shootings daily

Wow I could go on and on, sh!t we got it all figured out lets keep rolling!


http://saynotogod.org/ Please support our cause!!!!!

what about the seperation of god and state? didnt they write that somewhere?

coz
03-07-2008, 09:50 AM
Steve, hating Illinois Nazi's isnt going to solve anything. we dont hate.

Wasn't love thy neighbor/mc owner in Moses's 10 commandments? :rolleyes:

captain planet
03-07-2008, 09:51 AM
Great points here we have no need for religion. Lets keep steaming ahead on our present course. The removal of religion from our country is working splendidly wouldn't you agree boys?

Rampant drug abuse
Teen pregnancies
Soaring crime
Child abuse
Nonexisitant morality
School shootings daily

Wow I could go on and on, sh!t we got it all figured out lets keep rolling!
http://saynotogod.org/ Please support our cause!!!!!

rolling rolling rolling, keep this thread rolling.....

Rampant drug abuse. todays teens and abusing more and more drugs from their parents medicine cabinets. Presumably these aren't just happening in religion free houses are they? I think we may want to take a little parental responsibility on this one.

Teen pregnancy. Uh, I would guess that there are just as many teens that are pregnant coming from homes where religion is present as from homes where religion isn't present.

Soaring crime. tough times make desperate people do desperate things, please see corporate outsourcing of our jobs.

Child abuse. Please refer to the catholic church and their priest handbook.

nonexistent morality. ????? don't know where your going with this one.

School shootings daily. ???? Well not exactly daily. Maybe semiannualy. This can be traced back to poor parenting. Maybe if Mom and Dad didn't BOTH have to work to support a family these days this would change. Please see corporate welfare for this solution.

rolling rolling rolling.......

(did I throw enough gas on this one?!?!)8p 8p

TMCNo1
03-07-2008, 09:52 AM
Wasn't love thy neighbor/mc owner in Moses's 10 commandments? :rolleyes:

I think it was, or at least it was the last time I got stoned!:rolleyes: :o

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-07-2008, 09:53 AM
Wasn't love thy neighbor/mc owner in Moses's 10 commandments? :rolleyes:
I have no idea. I was stoned when I read them. way stoned.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-07-2008, 09:54 AM
Mel Brooks said Moses orginally had 15 commandments, but dropped one of the tablets and it broke, so then they just went by the 10 instead.

coz
03-07-2008, 09:56 AM
I think it was, or at least it was the last time I got stoned!:rolleyes: :o

I'll be right back I need to step into my garage and do a little research so I can be in the same frame of mind as everyone else. :cool:

TMCNo1
03-07-2008, 09:58 AM
I'll be right back I need to step into my garage and do a little research so I can be in the same frame of mind as everyone else. :cool:
:uglyhamme :uglyhamme :uglyhamme Atta boy!

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-07-2008, 09:58 AM
Great points here we have no need for religion. Lets keep steaming ahead on our present course. The removal of religion from our country is working splendidly wouldn't you agree boys?

Rampant drug abuse
Teen pregnancies
Soaring crime
Child abuse
Nonexisitant morality
School shootings daily

Wow I could go on and on, sh!t we got it all figured out lets keep rolling!


http://saynotogod.org/ Please support our cause!!!!!

Are ALL homes with religion free of those nasty things? or just certain religions?

I mean do all christain, jewish, buddhist, scientology, native american spiritual, muslim, etc...... homes not have these problems? :confused:

what about devil worshipers? thats a religion too. is that bad? or do devil worshping homes have kids on the honor roll and free of pregnancies and drug abuse? :confused:

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-07-2008, 09:59 AM
I'll be right back I need to step into my garage and do a little research so I can be in the same frame of mind as everyone else. :cool:
save some for me.

TMCNo1
03-07-2008, 10:01 AM
I have no idea. I was stoned when I read them. way stoned.


After reading "thou shall not kill", I watched the "Andy Griffith Show" where Opie killed the mamma robin, and I was really trippin"!:rolleyes: :( :o

TX.X-30 fan
03-07-2008, 10:04 AM
what about the seperation of god and state? didnt they write that somewhere?




Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.



Not that I see?????

coz
03-07-2008, 10:06 AM
After reading "thou shall not kill", I watched the "Andy Griffith Show" where Opie killed the mamma robin, and I was really trippin"!:rolleyes: :( :o

I saw that one! Andy and Aunt B were very calm through this ordeal I cried for days :(

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-07-2008, 11:18 AM
I saw that one! Andy and Aunt B were very calm through this ordeal I cried for days :(
bad jag huh?

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-07-2008, 11:20 AM
Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.



Not that I see?????


so thats the only place it could have been written?

tommcat
03-07-2008, 11:33 AM
3) It is accepted that religion, from it's earliest days, has always been a method for man to explain the unexplainable.
or a way to control people.

captain planet
03-07-2008, 11:49 AM
or a way to control people.
I'll second that...

east tx skier
03-07-2008, 11:49 AM
what about the seperation of god and state? didnt they write that somewhere?


Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.



Not that I see?????


so thats the only place it could have been written?

I'm stepping in solely to say that the term "separation between Church and State" has been used by the Supreme Court in its interpretation of the establishment clause. As set forth below, they are borrowing the language from Thomas Jefferson's "Wall of Separation" letter. So, yes, UMP, it most certainly has been written elsewhere.

"The ‘establishment of religion’ clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever from they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect ‘a wall of separation between Church and State.’"

Everson v. Board of Ed. of Ewing Tp., 330 U.S. 1, 15-16, 67 S.Ct. 504, 511 - 512, 1392, 91 L.Ed. 711 (1947).

I'm off to read some boating topics.

Trent 197
03-07-2008, 11:50 AM
rolling rolling rolling, keep this thread rolling.....

Rampant drug abuse. todays teens and abusing more and more drugs from their parents medicine cabinets. Presumably these aren't just happening in religion free houses are they? I think we may want to take a little parental responsibility on this one.

Teen pregnancy. Uh, I would guess that there are just as many teens that are pregnant coming from homes where religion is present as from homes where religion isn't present.

Soaring crime. tough times make desperate people do desperate things, please see corporate outsourcing of our jobs.

Child abuse. Please refer to the catholic church and their priest handbook.

nonexistent morality. ????? don't know where your going with this one.

School shootings daily. ???? Well not exactly daily. Maybe semiannualy. This can be traced back to poor parenting. Maybe if Mom and Dad didn't BOTH have to work to support a family these days this would change. Please see corporate welfare for this solution.

rolling rolling rolling.......

(did I throw enough gas on this one?!?!)8p 8p



I agree with most of what you say, except the part about outsourcing "our" jobs. Why would any businessman pay the premiums imposed by our government (i.e. minimum wage) which undermine free trade and the law of supply and demand, when they could have their labor done cheaper elsewhere? Essentially, what you are suggesting is that we "give" people more money, at other peoples expense, to keep them from committing violent acts. That's coercion.

betsy&david Harrison
03-07-2008, 11:53 AM
Did the Mormon's believe in the 10 Commandments?

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-07-2008, 11:55 AM
Great points here we have no need for religion. Lets keep steaming ahead on our present course. The removal of religion from our country is working splendidly wouldn't you agree boys?

Rampant drug abuse
Teen pregnancies
Soaring crime
Child abuse
Nonexisitant morality
School shootings daily

Wow I could go on and on, sh!t we got it all figured out lets keep rolling!


http://saynotogod.org/ Please support our cause!!!!!

What about that guy that was a religious leader that got arrested near Las Vegas a while back? he was a religious leader, and he was arrested for a bunch of baaaaaaad things. what about that?

captain planet
03-07-2008, 11:55 AM
I agree with most of what you say, except the part about outsourcing "our" jobs. Why would any businessman pay the premiums imposed by our government (i.e. minimum wage) which undermine free trade and the law of supply and demand, when they could have their labor done cheaper elsewhere? Essentially, what you are suggesting is that we "give" people more money, at other peoples expense, to keep them from committing violent acts. That's coercion.
In most cases labor is sent elsewhere in order to pad the bottom line. If the jobs were kept here, the bottom line suffers a bit, but the people benefit. When the jobs are sent away the bottom line flourishes, but the people suffer. I think it would be better if the people benefit and the bottom line just isn't as big...but that's just my opinion.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-07-2008, 12:09 PM
Great points here we have no need for religion. Lets keep steaming ahead on our present course. The removal of religion from our country is working splendidly wouldn't you agree boys?

Rampant drug abuse
Teen pregnancies
Soaring crime
Child abuse
Nonexisitant morality
School shootings daily

Wow I could go on and on, sh!t we got it all figured out lets keep rolling!


http://saynotogod.org/ Please support our cause!!!!! Rermeber a few years ago when all that stuff came out in the news about those priests that were having sexual encounters with underage boys and girls? does that make it "ok" just because religion was involved? :rolleyes: I think not.

coz
03-07-2008, 12:10 PM
What about that guy that was a religious leader that got arrested near Las Vegas a while back? he was a religious leader, and he was arrested for a bunch of baaaaaaad things. what about that?

It wasn't just one religious leader busted with a prostitute or secretary or drug abuse. :mad: I will say this and wait for the backlash 8p but most of those televangalists are lying robbers and in the end you hear how sinful these so called religious leaders really are.

wakeX2wake
03-07-2008, 12:12 PM
that's why in my opinion people need to get their head out of their arses and read a book or two and decide what they think for themselves... ask for insight when you need to but think for yourself

Trent 197
03-07-2008, 12:14 PM
In most cases labor is sent elsewhere in order to pad the bottom line. If the jobs were kept here, the bottom line suffers a bit, but the people benefit. When the jobs are sent away the bottom line flourishes, but the people suffer. I think it would be better if the people benefit and the bottom line just isn't as big...but that's just my opinion.


What people benefit and at whose expense? The majority of laborers? What about the rights of the minority of businessmen? Who are we to "expropriate" the wealth they earned for the "common good" of everyone else? One more penny "expropriated" from businessman X could mean the difference in a life of pleasure and a life of drudgery.

captain planet
03-07-2008, 12:16 PM
What people benefit and at whose expense?
We the People benefit at the expense of the corporations.....as opposed to the current trend which is the corporations benefit at the expense of We the People. Corporations don't need to make billions and billions of dollars that gets shilled out the corporate elite. The corporations exist here because of the people therefore the people should be rewarded with jobs HERE in America.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-07-2008, 12:19 PM
It wasn't just one religious leader busted with a prostitute or secretary or drug abuse. :mad: I will say this and wait for the backlash 8p but most of those televangalists are lying robbers and in the end you hear how sinful these so called religious leaders really are.
TRU DAT .

Trent 197
03-07-2008, 12:27 PM
We the People benefit at the expense of the corporations.....as opposed to the current trend which is the corporations benefit at the expense of We the People. Corporations don't need to make billions and billions of dollars that gets shilled out the corporate elite. The corporations exist here because of the people therefore the people should be rewarded with jobs HERE in America.

I guess you didn't read what I wrote. "At the expense of the corporations" means "at the expense of the men who run them". What about their rights? Why is the "peoples" benefit more important than theirs? Who are we to say what is too much money for one man to make, and that above a certain limit that money should be "expropriated" to the undeserving "public".

captain planet
03-07-2008, 12:32 PM
I guess you didn't read what I wrote. "At the expense of the corporations" means "at the expense of the men who run them". What about their rights? Why is the "peoples" benefit more important than theirs? Who are we to say what is too much money for one man to make, and that above a certain limit that money should be "expropriated" to the undeserving "public".
The corporations exist BECAUSE of the People. We buy their goods, we MAKE their goods, we provide a place for them to do business, America. So why is it fair for a corporation to exist here, benefit from the market that is here, then turn around and stab the very thing that allows them to exist in the first place, the people? Is that so unreasonable? Not in my eyes. If you see it differently, so be it.

wakeX2wake
03-07-2008, 12:39 PM
The corporations exist BECAUSE of the People. We buy their goods, we MAKE their goods, we provide a place for them to do business, America. So why is it fair for a corporation to exist here, benefit from the market that is here, then turn around and stab the very thing that allows them to exist in the first place, the people? Is that so unreasonable? Not in my eyes. If you see it differently, so be it.
if people don't like the way someone does business you don't continue to fill their pockets... are you willing to pay more to make a point by not buying goods from someone else... if so then spread that word... you can get much more done that way

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-07-2008, 12:43 PM
I thought we were talking about Moses' drug problem and Illinois Nazi's.......

coz
03-07-2008, 12:45 PM
The corporations exist BECAUSE of the People. We buy their goods, we MAKE their goods, we provide a place for them to do business, America. So why is it fair for a corporation to exist here, benefit from the market that is here, then turn around and stab the very thing that allows them to exist in the first place, the people? Is that so unreasonable? Not in my eyes. If you see it differently, so be it.

Speaking of $$$$$$$, tommorow I'm gonna win the AZ powerball it's up to 200 million, I wont have to worry about Jewish Researchers, Moses, Corprate america or anything. :D Now back to our discussion. :D

flipper
03-07-2008, 12:46 PM
I thought we were talking about Moses' drug problem and Illinois Nazi's.......

Nobody said he had a problem....just that he was stoned.

kjohnson
03-07-2008, 12:46 PM
This thread has gotten out of hand.

Bruce
03-07-2008, 12:46 PM
I'm stepping in solely to say that the term "separation between Church and State" has been used by the Supreme Court in its interpretation of the establishment clause. As set forth below, they are borrowing the language from Thomas Jefferson's "Wall of Separation" letter. So, yes, UMP, it most certainly has been written elsewhere.

"The ‘establishment of religion’ clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever from they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect ‘a wall of separation between Church and State.’"

Everson v. Board of Ed. of Ewing Tp., 330 U.S. 1, 15-16, 67 S.Ct. 504, 511 - 512, 1392, 91 L.Ed. 711 (1947).

I'm off to read some boating topics.

How dare you interject fact and logic in to this !! You are really going to confuse the lberals and "well read" !!(Natl. Inquirer, Hustler etc being their source of info.)

Monte
03-07-2008, 12:49 PM
How dare you interject fact and logic in to this !! You are really going to confuse the lberals and "well read" !!(Natl. Inquirer, Hustler etc being their source of info.)

That is funny stuff right there:rolleyes:


UMP have you got any other ideas of publications we should be reading:confused:

captain planet
03-07-2008, 12:53 PM
if people don't like the way someone does business you don't continue to fill their pockets... are you willing to pay more to make a point by not buying goods from someone else... if so then spread that word... you can get much more done that way
I do. When I buy something I try as hard as I can to only buy things made here. But it has gotten to the point you almost can't anymore, which is feel has already been covered on another thread here before.

Your comments work in an idealistic situation, however in the real world, the corporations have gotten out of hand and have abused the system so badly that we have our current economic situation.

wakeX2wake
03-07-2008, 12:55 PM
I do. When I buy something I try as hard as I can to only buy things made here. But it has gotten to the point you almost can't anymore, which is feel has already been covered on another thread here before.

Your comments work in an idealistic situation, however in the real world, the corporations have gotten out of hand and have abused the system so badly that we have our current economic situation.

the simple fact remains that you and only you (w/ a slight exception of the government) controls your money and it's up to you what you do w/ it... if you can affect the way other spend theirs to help w/ you cause then good but it's all survival of the fittest in the end

trickskier
03-07-2008, 12:55 PM
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

betsy&david Harrison
03-07-2008, 12:59 PM
More on Moses being STONED on Mt. Sinai......

Ten Commandments....

not even the very religious follow them to the "T" and that is obvious in todays media world.

You are either on side of the tablets or the other... the front or the back!!

TMCNo1
03-07-2008, 12:59 PM
How dare you interject fact and logic in to this !! You are really going to confuse the lberals and "well read" !!(Natl. Inquirer, Hustler etc being their source of info.)


I'm now gonna have to go get stoned to see if it's bad enough to be a problem, then I'll have enough knowledge to know if I have a problem, then I can admit I have a problem to deal with the problem, if I have a problem.
Did they have rehab in Biblical Times, me and the gas dock attendant at Lake Wylie want to know?:confused: I think I'm onto something here!

TMCNo1
03-07-2008, 01:03 PM
I'm stepping in solely to say that the term "separation between Church and State" has been used by the Supreme Court in its interpretation of the establishment clause. As set forth below, they are borrowing the language from Thomas Jefferson's "Wall of Separation" letter. So, yes, UMP, it most certainly has been written elsewhere.

"The ‘establishment of religion’ clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever from they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect ‘a wall of separation between Church and State.’"

Everson v. Board of Ed. of Ewing Tp., 330 U.S. 1, 15-16, 67 S.Ct. 504, 511 - 512, 1392, 91 L.Ed. 711 (1947).

I'm off to read some boating topics.


How dare you get J.R. Ewing involved in this, with his being shot and all and Cliff Barnes wanting to take over his lube company and play welldriller with his wife, Sue Ellen!:confused: :rolleyes: :D

Jesus_Freak
03-07-2008, 01:06 PM
I love a free discussion of opinions, beliefs, and the search for truth. You guys are great! That is one of the reasons this board is a phenomenal resource.

Jesus always welcomed everyone to consider the facts. Skepticism was not born yesterday.

The great news is that most likely every human reading this thread will clearly know the "truth" within the next 80-100 years. Sit tight. ;)

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-07-2008, 01:11 PM
That is funny stuff right there:rolleyes:


UMP have you got any other ideas of publications we should be reading:confused:
Yep I do .

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-07-2008, 01:13 PM
I love a free discussion of opinions, beliefs, and the search for truth. You guys are great! That is one of the reasons this board is a phenomenal resource.

Jesus always welcomed everyone to consider the facts. Skepticism was not born yesterday.

The great news is that most likely every human reading this thread will clearly know the "truth" within the next 80-100 years. Sit tight. ;)
HOw do you KNOW that?

there is no REAL way to know.

edit/why does have to be in the next 80-100 years?

I think our civilization will destroy itself far before that time.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-07-2008, 01:18 PM
More on Moses being STONED on Mt. Sinai......

Ten Commandments....

not even the very religious follow them to the "T" and that is obvious in todays media world.

You are either on side of the tablets or the other... the front or the back!!

TRU DAT.

I love how people can justify certain bending of the rules for some things but not others.

It all boils down to people will believe what they want to believe. Wether it be UFO's, God, or whatever. they view it how they WANT it to be.

Harvey
03-07-2008, 01:21 PM
Wow this sucker got out of hand.

FOCUS

Point 1) This great country of ours was founded on the idea that you could believe what ever you wanted to. Freedom of religious belief is paramount; they were escaping forced religious belief. Embracing the diversity that is the United States is patriotic. To tell someone that their belief in something is wrong is, in this man's opinion, is to be un-American. I am in no way saying that I have to agree or even like the belief of another person but as an American I must give them the freedom to believe it. Something that makes that easier for me is what I was describing earlier. I have accepted that without empirical proof of my beliefs, they could be just as flawed and incorrect as the next persons. From that FACT I am ok with other people having their own beliefs even if there is empirical evidence that discounts it. And furthermore I make the choice not to impose my, possibly flawed, beliefs on them to sway them from their, possibly flawed, beliefs.


Point 2) Here is an attempt to enlighten the bigger question. It's called the unmoved mover argument (Aristotle).

1) There exists movement in the world.
2) Things that move were set into motion by something else.
3) If everything that moves was caused to move by something else, there would be an infinite chain of causes. This can't happen.
4) Thus, there must have been something that caused the first movement.
5) From 3, this first cause cannot itself have been moved.
6) From 4, there must be an unmoved mover.

This is probably the strongest argument for a supreme being, not a particular being, just an unmoved mover which Aristotle described as "perfectly beautiful, indivisible, and contemplating only the perfect contemplation: itself contemplating." For this argument to give empirical proof of the existence of a supreme being you would have to prove that there was a point at which nothing caused something then and only then you would have proof of the existence of the unmoved mover.

This logical argument alone is not enough to prove the existence of an unmoved mover (Supreme Being). Line 3 is flawed and has yet to be generally accepted as truth. As of yet there is no way to disprove (or prove) an infinite chain of causes. It is not something that we on the surface would like to accept but it is possible. This would mean that the universe has always existed and has a repeatable system to it that will continue forever.

I hope that stirred some thoughts, hopefully good ones.

Point 3) And the point about the War of Northern Aggression was right. Any given man will always look at the world from his own perspective even if that perspective is his perspective of the person’s perspective he is trying to write down. That means that whatever he rights down will not be an accurate account of events. His bias will always play a role. That is a fact. Ever do the exercise as a child where the teacher tells one student a sentence and has them pass it on whispering it to the next student and so on and so on and then the last student says the sentence aloud? The sentence is almost never the same sentence as when it started.

Point 4) I would also like to say that religion has nothing to do with our countries issues as previously mentioned. The problem lies in the lack of values with our citizens. It just so happens that religion can provide those values, however religion is not the only place to learn
values!

coz
03-07-2008, 01:21 PM
It all boils down to people will believe what they want to believe. Wether it be UFO's, God, or whatever. they view it how they WANT it to be.

TRU DAT. :D

coz
03-07-2008, 01:25 PM
Here is an attempt to enlighten the bigger question. It's called the unmoved mover argument (Aristotle).



Aristotle!? you don't even wanna know what I heard about him, that'll be tomorrows thread. :)

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-07-2008, 01:28 PM
"Howard Johnson is RIGHT about Olson Johnson being right!"

TMCNo1
03-07-2008, 01:28 PM
Oh No, "It's called the unmoved mover argument (Aristotle).",
now we have laxative in the mix, Prune Juice or Ex-Lax?

Jesus_Freak
03-07-2008, 01:29 PM
HOw do you KNOW that?

there is no REAL way to know.

edit/why does have to be in the next 80-100 years?

I think our civilization will destroy itself far before that time.

I just meant because we are MOST LIKELY all going to die in that time span. I said MOST LIKELY. I dont know jack.

Jesus_Freak
03-07-2008, 01:31 PM
Point 1) ... Point 4)

Completely beautiful. I have discussed point 2 before on other threads.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-07-2008, 01:32 PM
Wow this sucker got out of hand.

I dont think it has. nobody has gotten "out of hand"

everyone is discussing this in a calm cool manner. its healthy discussion. its not an arguement or a holy war. I am looking for interesting veiwpoints, and I love to question convention. its the engineer in me. Its something thats woven into our brains to ask "why?". as I said, thats what separates humans from other animals. that and the fact that we use deodorant.

I want to know why. its healthy and good for us to ask why. its is good for us to question our existance, and the world around us.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-07-2008, 01:34 PM
I just meant because we are MOST LIKELY all going to die in that time span. I said MOST LIKELY. I dont know jack.
WHY is it most likey? Is there some sort of "TV guide" of life that says we will all be dying then?

personally, I think I will be dead by then. I dont think I can make it to 135 yrs old even with modern medicine.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-07-2008, 01:35 PM
what about the "Big Bang" theory? or the "spontaneous generation" theory?

Harvey
03-07-2008, 01:37 PM
I dont think it has. nobody has gotten "out of hand"

everyone is discussing this in a calm cool manner. its healthy discussion. its not an arguement or a holy war. I am looking for interesting veiwpoints, and I love to question convention. its the engineer in me. Its something thats woven into our brains to ask "why?". as I said, thats what separates humans from other animals. that and the fact that we use deodorant.

I want to know why. its healthy and good for us to ask why. its is good for us to question our existance, and the world around us.

I agree with all of the above, I meant it is all over the place. Major league quotes to foundations of modern religious beliefs is a pretty broad perspective. Out of hand was probably not the best choice of words. How about "Wow this sucker is all over the place"? More fitting. "It's the why that drives us!"

Jesus_Freak
03-07-2008, 01:38 PM
WHY is it most likey? Is there some sort of "TV guide" of life that says we will all be dying then?

It is most likely that you are a nice guy and are just jerking my chain. :D

Harvey
03-07-2008, 01:40 PM
what about the "Big Bang" theory? or the "spontaneous generation" theory?

See here is an interesting thought about the big bang. What if there has been more than one big bang? What if the universe expands at a rate that is slowing down (which it is) and then it starts to reverse due to the pull of gravity and contract to one point then that pressure and force causes it to explode again, starting things all over again?

Jesus_Freak
03-07-2008, 01:42 PM
See here is an interesting thought about the big bang. What if there has been more than one big bang? What if the universe expands at a rate that is slowing down (which it is) and then it starts to reverse due to the pull of gravity and contract to one point then that pressure and force causes it to explode again, starting things all over again?

As long as these theories are considered in the context of your "point 2" above, then they are worthy of discussion. Specifically, do they avoid violating any physical laws, such as Newton's first.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-07-2008, 01:42 PM
It is most likely that you are a nice guy and are just jerking my chain. :D
I am a nice guy, but I am looking for view points. tell us yours. I am wanting to know WHY. No matter WHAT anyone's beliefs are, I want to know WHY? WHY do you believe that? WHY does the next guy believe something different? I want to know WHY people arrive at whatever it is they believe. I just want people to dig in and express WHY they feel the way they do. what makes them believe in what they believe in? blind Faith? education? what? why?

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-07-2008, 01:45 PM
As long as these theories are considered in the context of your "point 2" above, then they are worthy of discussion. Specifically, do they avoid violating any physical laws, such as Newton's first.
Why wouldnt they be worthy of discussion if they were NOT in the context of "point 2" ??????:confused: :confused:

Jesus_Freak
03-07-2008, 01:45 PM
I am a nice guy, but I am looking for view points. tell us yours. I am wanting to know WHY. No matter WHAT anyone's beliefs are, I want to know WHY? WHY do you believe that? WHY does the next guy believe something different? I want to know WHY people arrive at whatever it is they believe. I just want people to dig in and express WHY they feel the way they do. what makes them believe in what they believe in? blind Faith? education? what? why?

Are you seriously asking ME for MY views and HOW I arrived? Do you really care?

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-07-2008, 01:46 PM
Are you seriously asking ME for MY views and HOW I arrived? Do you really care?
I am asking everyone. this is a good discussion, and I want to know where people arrive at their beliefs, no matter what their beliefs are.

Jesus_Freak
03-07-2008, 01:47 PM
Why wouldnt they be worthy of discussion if they were NOT in the context of "point 2" ??????:confused: :confused:

Anything that violates known physical laws is of questionable worth. Didnt you say you are an engineer?

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-07-2008, 01:48 PM
Anything that violates known physical laws is of questionable worth. Didnt you say you are an engineer?
Yes I am, but I am also trying to think "outside the box" as many scientific or technical people can be bound to. I am trying to be open minded and consider all viewpoints. this converstaion is really starting to intruige me.

Harvey
03-07-2008, 01:49 PM
As long as these theories are considered in the context of your "point 2" above, then they are worthy of discussion. Specifically, do they avoid violating any physical laws, such as Newton's first.

I think what you are getting at is that they need to fit within the framework of existing physics. Which the big bang surely does. The problem you seem to be facing is that science is based on ideas (hypothesis's) and sometimes we come across evidence or proofs that cause us to have to alter or change those hypothesis's (ideas). It is science not faith. Ideas can be changed beliefs can't.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-07-2008, 01:52 PM
I think what you are getting at is that they need to fit within the framework of existing physics. Which the big bang surely does. The problem you seem to be facing is that science is based on ideas (hypothesis's) and sometimes we come across evidence or proofs that cause us to have to alter or change those hypothesis's (ideas). It is science not faith. Ideas can be changed beliefs can't.
and sometimes Hypothesis's are wrong. they are just "scientific guesses"

flipper
03-07-2008, 01:54 PM
I am a nice guy, but I am looking for view points. tell us yours. I am wanting to know WHY. No matter WHAT anyone's beliefs are, I want to know WHY? WHY do you believe that? WHY does the next guy believe something different? I want to know WHY people arrive at whatever it is they believe. I just want people to dig in and express WHY they feel the way they do. what makes them believe in what they believe in? blind Faith? education? what? why?

Have to agree with ya UMP, it is interesting to see how people think. Not so much into what people think, but why people think it, no matter what the subject is about.

TMCNo1
03-07-2008, 01:54 PM
Why? Because we love you, M I C K E Y M O U S E!

Jesus_Freak
03-07-2008, 01:55 PM
I am asking everyone. this is a good discussion, and I want to know where people arrive at their beliefs, no matter what their beliefs are.

Short version (since I am at work) if you care:

1. The universe had a/some "Designer(s)". That is science.
2. Of all of the explanations of the Designer, the Bible is the most diverse, consistent, and logical. (see previous posts for examples, dont have time here).
3. The Bible speaks of an ASTOUNDING love that Jesus offers all who breath, NO MATTER what he/she has done.
4. That door is wide open until we buy the farm.

It is sort of like Pascal's Wager, but that is not where the story ends.

Jesus_Freak
03-07-2008, 01:59 PM
I think what you are getting at is that they need to fit within the framework of existing physics. Which the big bang surely does. The problem you seem to be facing is that science is based on ideas (hypothesis's) and sometimes we come across evidence or proofs that cause us to have to alter or change those hypothesis's (ideas). It is science not faith. Ideas can be changed beliefs can't.

You propose that the big bang (motion caused by nothing) is "within the framework of existing physics"? Have you read a physics text lately?

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-07-2008, 02:03 PM
Short version (since I am at work) if you care:

1. The universe had a/some "Designer(s)". That is science.
2. Of all of the explanations of the Designer, the Bible is the most diverse, consistent, and logical. (see previous posts for examples, dont have time here).
3. The Bible speaks of an ASTOUNDING love that Jesus offers all who breath, NO MATTER what he/she has done.
4. That door is wide open until we buy the farm.

It is sort of like Pascal's Wager, but that is not where the story ends.

OK, I respect that.

I guess what I question is, what about other religions? I know you speak of Jesus' astounding love, but what about Jewish faith? they dont believe in Jesus. and what about every other faith that does not claim Jesus as their God? does Jesus love people who pray to other religious symbols or Gods? and I am just using the christian faith as an example, and what about Christian faith in respec to the others. do other "gods" or relgious symbols love christians and accept them as well?

see I am trying to understand all this.

Harvey
03-07-2008, 02:05 PM
You propose that the big bang (motion caused by nothing) is "within the framework of existing physics"? Have you read a physics text lately?

To my knowledge the Big Bang never answered what caused it to bang, just that it did. As far as all the physics I have studied is concerned it fits. Now to find a cause for the big bang that fits within the framework of hypothesized physics is something as yet accomplished.

(it has been a while since I studied physics formally, so if I am not up to date my apologies)

als2104
03-07-2008, 02:07 PM
I am asking everyone. this is a good discussion, and I want to know where people arrive at their beliefs, no matter what their beliefs are.

I'm Jewish, Orthodox actually born and raised, I keep Shabbat, Kosher, the whole 9 yards. IMHO, the key point is the disctinction thats been made between belief, based on faith, and knowledge, based on proof. I believe in G-d as the creator and orchestrator of the universe and I have faith that this is the right religion. Do I have factual proof? No. I know what my religous practices mean to me and how I see G-d's hand in every day life. The more I practice my faith, the more I see it as the correct one, the only way for me to live. I dont think its for everyone and I wouldnt accept anyone else to take on these beliefs without proof. I DONT NEED PROOF, I HAVE FAITH.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-07-2008, 02:08 PM
You propose that the big bang (motion caused by nothing) is "within the framework of existing physics"? Have you read a physics text lately?
I see his point JF.

its thinking outside the box. In the 13th century, did they have any idea of the possibility of the microchip? Science is something we know very little about. there is far more out there to learn, as we have proved. back when the first cave man beat another iwth a rock to gain supremecy, I dont think he envisioned the Hiroshiima bomb in our future. they had no clue about that stuff, just as we have NO clue of what yet is to be discovered in science. the "laws" of physics are only laws as we know them now at this point.

coz
03-07-2008, 02:09 PM
See here is an interesting thought about the big bang. What if there has been more than one big bang? What if the universe expands at a rate that is slowing down (which it is) and then it starts to reverse due to the pull of gravity and contract to one point then that pressure and force causes it to explode again, starting things all over again?

Can we take our MC's with us? or do we have to start all over again?:confused: ?

wakeX2wake
03-07-2008, 02:16 PM
Can we take our MC's with us? or do we have to start all over again?:confused: ?
i hope not i just started clearing the interest on mine!

Maristar210
03-07-2008, 02:21 PM
I hate those damn Illinois Nazi's..........

Maristar210
03-07-2008, 02:22 PM
When I start shaking the treat jar my dog begins to salivate

east tx skier
03-07-2008, 02:25 PM
How dare you interject fact and logic in to this !! You are really going to confuse the lberals and "well read" !!(Natl. Inquirer, Hustler etc being their source of info.)

Actually I injected mostly law and don't consider myself a conservative or a liberal. Again, I'm not injecting myself into this discussion. I was really just just answering UMP's question.

Harvey
03-07-2008, 02:27 PM
I see his point JF.

its thinking outside the box. In the 13th century, did they have any idea of the possibility of the microchip? Science is something we know very little about. there is far more out there to learn, as we have proved. back when the first cave man beat another iwth a rock to gain supremecy, I dont think he envisioned the Hiroshiima bomb in our future. they had no clue about that stuff, just as we have NO clue of what yet is to be discovered in science. the "laws" of physics are only laws as we know them now at this point.

<hammer hitting nail on head>

Science evolves and grows with knowledge of the universe. They once thought the world was flat when they had scientific proof it was not flat they changed the hypothesis.

Bruce
03-07-2008, 02:45 PM
Actually I injected mostly law and don't consider myself a conservative or a liberal. Again, I'm not injecting myself into this discussion. I was really just just answering UMP's question.
I hope you did not miss the sarcasim. I was paying you a compliment. I am not getting to deep into this either. By the way logic is not only part of the law it existed in the days of Hammurabi and before precedent.

east tx skier
03-07-2008, 02:49 PM
I hope you did not miss the sarcasim. I was paying you a compliment. I am not getting to deep into this either. By the way logic is not only part of the law it existed in the days of Hammurabi and before precedent.

Don't worry. It wasn't lost on me. I just didn't want anyone to think I had any political, social, economic or other label worthy affiliations. I carry no cards. :)

wakeX2wake
03-07-2008, 02:50 PM
isn't it great how we all get along in the end!?!?!?

wakeX2wake
03-07-2008, 02:50 PM
Next Round On Me!

RexDog1
03-07-2008, 02:52 PM
Ok the way I look at it is ……………….if I came home and told my wife8p that I got lost in the desert, talked to a Burning Bush, and parted the Red Sea…… and we have 10 new roles to live by…. she would say “ What the Heii have you been smoking” ?:rolleyes:

Just saying…………………………… have a good weekend all :D :wavey:

east tx skier
03-07-2008, 02:58 PM
Ok the way I look at it is ……………….if I came home and told my wife8p that I got lost in the desert, talked to a Burning Bush, and parted the Red Sea…… and we have 10 new roles to live by…. she would say “ What the Heii have you been smoking” ?

Just saying…………………………… have a good weekend all :D :wavey:

...at which point you'd giggle and head for the fridge. :cool:

flipper
03-07-2008, 03:02 PM
...at which point you'd giggle and head for the fridge. :cool:

Beat me to it:rolleyes:

ShamrockIV
03-07-2008, 03:08 PM
Moses stoned????
someone will smoke a turd in hell for that one!!

wakeX2wake
03-07-2008, 03:09 PM
...at which point you'd giggle and head for the fridge. :cool:
great stuff!!! i like this a lot better than working at work

shepherd
03-07-2008, 03:09 PM
Wow this sucker got out of hand.

FOCUS

Point 1) This great country of ours was founded on the idea that you could believe what ever you wanted to. Freedom of religious belief is paramount; they were escaping forced religious belief. Embracing the diversity that is the United States is patriotic. To tell someone that their belief in something is wrong is, in this man's opinion, is to be un-American. I am in no way saying that I have to agree or even like the belief of another person but as an American I must give them the freedom to believe it. Something that makes that easier for me is what I was describing earlier. I have accepted that without empirical proof of my beliefs, they could be just as flawed and incorrect as the next persons. From that FACT I am ok with other people having their own beliefs even if there is empirical evidence that discounts it. And furthermore I make the choice not to impose my, possibly flawed, beliefs on them to sway them from their, possibly flawed, beliefs.


Point 2) Here is an attempt to enlighten the bigger question. It's called the unmoved mover argument (Aristotle).

1) There exists movement in the world.
2) Things that move were set into motion by something else.
3) If everything that moves was caused to move by something else, there would be an infinite chain of causes. This can't happen.
4) Thus, there must have been something that caused the first movement.
5) From 3, this first cause cannot itself have been moved.
6) From 4, there must be an unmoved mover.

This is probably the strongest argument for a supreme being, not a particular being, just an unmoved mover which Aristotle described as "perfectly beautiful, indivisible, and contemplating only the perfect contemplation: itself contemplating." For this argument to give empirical proof of the existence of a supreme being you would have to prove that there was a point at which nothing caused something then and only then you would have proof of the existence of the unmoved mover.

This logical argument alone is not enough to prove the existence of an unmoved mover (Supreme Being). Line 3 is flawed and has yet to be generally accepted as truth. As of yet there is no way to disprove (or prove) an infinite chain of causes. It is not something that we on the surface would like to accept but it is possible. This would mean that the universe has always existed and has a repeatable system to it that will continue forever.

I hope that stirred some thoughts, hopefully good ones.

Point 3) And the point about the War of Northern Aggression was right. Any given man will always look at the world from his own perspective even if that perspective is his perspective of the person’s perspective he is trying to write down. That means that whatever he rights down will not be an accurate account of events. His bias will always play a role. That is a fact. Ever do the exercise as a child where the teacher tells one student a sentence and has them pass it on whispering it to the next student and so on and so on and then the last student says the sentence aloud? The sentence is almost never the same sentence as when it started.

Point 4) I would also like to say that religion has nothing to do with our countries issues as previously mentioned. The problem lies in the lack of values with our citizens. It just so happens that religion can provide those values, however religion is not the only place to learn
values!

Dude, I want to party with you. You should come to CSM. ;)

shepherd
03-07-2008, 03:13 PM
Since we're talking about religion, can somebody tell me what the f$#%$# this means??? :confused:

wakeX2wake
03-07-2008, 03:18 PM
I'm standing in my office clapping right now... yea the guy across the hall is starting to suspect that i did in fact have a mostly liquid lunch

Harvey
03-07-2008, 03:21 PM
Since we're talking about religion, can somebody tell me what the f$#%$# this means??? :confused:

Damn war of northern aggression! ;)

Dude, I want to party with you. You should come to CSM.

A philosophy degree can clear out a pub faster than running out of beer will. :)

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-07-2008, 03:22 PM
Moses stoned????
someone will smoke a turd in hell for that one!!
We dont know that for sure do we?

Harvey
03-07-2008, 03:28 PM
We dont know that for sure do we?

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!:D :D

KNOW/WILL DOES NOT EQUAL BELIEVE!!!

Norf-Cak-Jay
03-07-2008, 03:30 PM
this is not the first time I've heard about Moses being under the influence of Psych's during his journey up the mountain to get the ten commandments. Think about all the oxen and other livestock that must have been on the journey with them...think about the mana that the Bible said fell from the sky with the dew, now remember back to college running through cow pastures hunting for delicious mushrooms growing out of cow****...don't get me wrong...i believe God showed himself to Moses...Moses had a big job to do! But its within reason to think that Moses was a little out of his gourd when it all happened.

Harvey
03-07-2008, 03:32 PM
Let me fix this for you.

Moses stoned????
I believe someone will smoke a turd in hell for that one!!

shepherd
03-07-2008, 03:33 PM
So all those years, those poor suffering people were being led around the desert by some lost stoner???

wakeX2wake
03-07-2008, 03:34 PM
So all those years, those poor sufferinf people were being led around the desert by some lost stoner???
yep shep... here we go again... i'm out this go round

ShamrockIV
03-07-2008, 03:35 PM
Damn war of northern aggression!

amen bro!!! to qoute the famous poet Bocephus, " If the South would've won we'd had it made!!!!"

coz
03-07-2008, 03:38 PM
now remember back to college running through cow pastures hunting for delicious mushrooms growing out of cow****...don't get me wrong...i believe God showed himself to Moses...Moses had a big job to do! But its within reason to think that Moses was a little out of his gourd when it all happened.

We didn't have to run through the pastures to get our shrooms, Timmy Patterson had great deals right on the corner of my street, corner house :D

ShamrockIV
03-07-2008, 03:38 PM
dang coz u got a shroom house lol

coz
03-07-2008, 03:47 PM
dang coz u got a shroom house lol


This would have been in the 70's right around the time Moses was experimenting :D

shepherd
03-07-2008, 03:47 PM
yep shep... here we go again... i'm out this go round

Damn! I did it again.
Back to the real topic: If Robert E. Lee wasn't such a traitor and accepted the command of the United States Army, the Civil War wouldn't have lasted more than a year. :D

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-07-2008, 03:47 PM
So all those years, those poor suffering people were being led around the desert by some lost stoner???
We dont KNOW that for sure. maybe, maybe not.

flipper
03-07-2008, 03:48 PM
Damn! I did it again.
Back to the real topic: If Robert E. Lee wasn't such a traitor and accepted the command of the United States Army, the Civil War wouldn't have lasted more than a year. :D

He wasn't a traitor, he was stoned!!!:D

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-07-2008, 03:53 PM
amen bro!!! to qoute the famous poet Bocephus, " If the South would've won we'd had it made!!!!"

UH-OH.......

TX.X-30 fan
03-07-2008, 03:54 PM
rolling rolling rolling, keep this thread rolling.....

Rampant drug abuse. todays teens and abusing more and more drugs from their parents medicine cabinets. Presumably these aren't just happening in religion free houses are they? I think we may want to take a little parental responsibility on this one.

Teen pregnancy. Uh, I would guess that there are just as many teens that are pregnant coming from homes where religion is present as from homes where religion isn't present.

Soaring crime. tough times make desperate people do desperate things, please see corporate outsourcing of our jobs.

Child abuse. Please refer to the catholic church and their priest handbook.

nonexistent morality. ????? don't know where your going with this one.

School shootings daily. ???? Well not exactly daily. Maybe semiannualy. This can be traced back to poor parenting. Maybe if Mom and Dad didn't BOTH have to work to support a family these days this would change. Please see corporate welfare for this solution.

rolling rolling rolling.......

(did I throw enough gas on this one?!?!)8p 8p



Say what you will, its not hard to track the disintegration of our society as it began to remove religion from the public stage.

Like it or not this nation was founded on ONE NATION UNDER GOD.

CP you insult your own intelligence with those responses.


UMP how do you see to type with your head so far up your arse???? :confused: :confused:

Upper Michigan Prostar190
03-07-2008, 03:56 PM
He wasn't a traitor, he was stoned!!!:D
TRU DAT.

the south lost the war becuase they were all stoned like the Roman soldiers were in "History of the World part 1" dancing around the fields in a stoner haze.