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Upper Michigan Prostar190
02-13-2008, 01:50 PM
How dumb are people? we have the news on a TV at work and my boss puts various news shows on. the part that really gets me is.......how can people actually BELIEVE the BS that comes out of ANY political candidates mouths? :rolleyes: and I dont care what party, group, race, color, smell, social group, financial group they come from. they are all the SAME. republican, democrat, blah blah blah blah...... all just the same. just politicians. liars. poeople that dont hold good on promises. I mean really. lets talk about this. If people actually, in their heart and soul, believe that any of these slick talking used copy machine salesmen or saleswomen is REALLY going to follow thru on any of these promises they really need to wake up and smell the coffee. I am staring to think that the problem is not the politicians. its the public that believe in them. how can anyone honestly, I mean honestly believe they are really going to deliver? no matter who it is, or what party. this is not intended to be a politcal party thread. its about politics in general, all of them. no parties.

ever hear the saying "do me wrong once, shame on you.......do me wrong twice, shame on ME" ???

why cant the people of the US seem to get that thru their thick skulls? we have been promised the world, moon, and stars by EVERY politician, yet we still have growing problems in our country. we keep blaming the politicians for all the problems. hey, WE were the voters that elected them right? why are we bichin'??

I sit here and listen to this political crap day in and day out.......what they are going to do for us. yea, right..... rah rah rah ........keep blowing smoke up our arses please! we havent had enough yet. and then lets all cheer them on! yay! wooohooo!!!!! isnt it great what candidate X is going to do for us once elected? the country is going to be just fine then!! :rolleyes: I think shrinks have a word for this called denial........

As sad as this is, I get more interested in the useless Roger clemons steriod inquiry. :rolleyes:

Time to wake up and smell the coffee people.....

flipper
02-13-2008, 01:53 PM
The sad part is it's nothing new, and probably will never change

Monte
02-13-2008, 01:59 PM
I want to know who is going to stop this crazy export of US jobs... NONE of the candidates say a darn thing about it.. The mortgage crisis wouldn't be that bad.. If people had frickin JOBS... We ship out more jobs a day than we do products.. It is down right stupid............................................ ...

Upper Michigan Prostar190
02-13-2008, 02:03 PM
Monte............nobody is going to do a thing about it. Oh sure, they will all talk a big deal on it, but thats it.

thats what I am trying to tell you. Wake up!

TMCNo1
02-13-2008, 02:03 PM
UMP, I couldn't have said it better myself. I'm feed up with it.

Monte
02-13-2008, 02:08 PM
Monte............nobody is going to do a thing about it. Oh sure, they will all talk a big deal on it, but thats it.

thats what I am trying to tell you. Wake up!


Sad.... Really sad:mad:

SkiDog
02-13-2008, 02:08 PM
UMP, I couldn't have said it better myself. I'm feed up with it.
This Country of ours is going to Hell in a handbasket!:mad:

bigmac
02-13-2008, 02:09 PM
I want to know who is going to stop this crazy export of US jobs... NONE of the candidates say a darn thing about it.. The mortgage crisis wouldn't be that bad.. If people had frickin JOBS... We ship out more jobs a day than we do products.. It is down right stupid............................................ ...

Other than try to stimulate the economy and reverse the march toward economic recession, which all the candidates have addressed, what can politicians/elected officials do to stop the export of jobs overseas?

Upper Michigan Prostar190
02-13-2008, 02:10 PM
Sad.... Really sad:mad:
Truth......... Really truth.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
02-13-2008, 02:12 PM
Other than try to stimulate the economy and reverse the march toward economic recession, which all the candidates have addressed, what can politicians/elected officials do to stop the export of jobs overseas?
There are things they can do, but they wont.

why? I will answer you with the universal answer that I use to answer any question: Money.

The machine is tooo big to stop now. there is too much back scratching going on. nobody cares about anything but lining their own, or their friends pockets.

Greed: Get used to it people. its here to stay.

Slinkyredfoot
02-13-2008, 02:18 PM
There are things they can do, but they wont.

why? I will answer you with the universal answer that I use to answer any question: Money.

The machine is tooo big to stop now. there is too much back scratching going on. nobody cares about anything but lining their own, or their friends pockets.

Greed: Get used to it people. its here to stay.

I would also add "power" to the greed part....but then again I think these go hand in hand. At times I almost can't stomach the thought of even voting...it all makes me sick to my stomach...

A.I. Rider
02-13-2008, 02:20 PM
Just hit the nail on the head when you mentioned greed. We are a country that puts too much value on what we own, what we buy, what we should be able to buy, causing the quest for the almighty dollar to be greater than ever, in effect bringing morality and ethical judgement to decline. Political rhetoric is hitting an all time low, and people eat it up, wishing and counting on the idea that these polititians will better there lives for them. The country is polarizing itself right before our eyes. Now is the time to act to change it, and I do not mean but voting. People need to care about their neighbor, volunteer a bit, give something back......just my thoughts. This subject just kind of caught me today. Sorry for the short rant.

shepherd
02-13-2008, 02:27 PM
This Country of ours is going to Hell in a handbasket!:mad:

And it has been for the last 232 years. I bet in 1808, 1908, 1958, and 2008, people in this country have been saying the same thing - at least about our political system.

lanier92prostar
02-13-2008, 02:29 PM
The problem with getting a government who is By the people and For the people is that those people don't have enough MONEY to get elected. Like UMP said, It is all about the MONEY!

shepherd
02-13-2008, 02:34 PM
................

76S&S
02-13-2008, 02:41 PM
I agree with all of the above and would like to add.......

I'm not a southern bible beating redneck but............we have abandoned the foundation that this country was founded on, GOD. Seperation of Church and State has been misinterpreted and "we the people" (the middle class) are paying for it. I could go on and on but I hope you see my point.

And another thing..........what is the government doing getting in the middle of things like: steroids in sports or even the mortgage crisis.

If I were a profesional athlete and I chose to use steriods, that should be between me, my team and that orginazation, not Washington.

If I choose to borrow more than I can pay, that should be between me and my debtors.

enough rambling for now...

chudson
02-13-2008, 02:50 PM
Revolution!!!!

bigmac
02-13-2008, 02:54 PM
There are things they can do, but they wont.

Like what? You mean import tariffs? Passing legislation making outsourcing illegal? Laws to prevent US companies from relocating outside the US? Name some things that elected officials could do to keep the US job market going, but that they aren't doing because of greed...I want to see how well you've thought this out....;)

Monte
02-13-2008, 02:54 PM
Other than try to stimulate the economy and reverse the march toward economic recession, which all the candidates have addressed, what can politicians/elected officials do to stop the export of jobs overseas?

Get rid of NAFTA for starters. Tax the hell out of the companies that willingly eliminate US jobs for less expensive foreign employees(I don't know how, but do it). Pop wal-mart for violation of anti trust laws Because the result of their addition to any community is the shut down over 50% of all the small mom and pops in that area. Build the darn wall already so honest US workers can have those jobs that are being shoveled out to illegals. Drug test those on welfare. Place a high enough tax on imports to make it worthwhile again to buy American, and by all means.. stop taxing the hell out of everbodys income so Americans can afford to buy American..

Upper Michigan Prostar190
02-13-2008, 03:00 PM
Like what? You mean import tariffs? Passing legislation making outsourcing illegal? Laws to prevent US companies from relocating outside the US? Name some things that elected officials could do to keep the US job market going, but that they aren't doing because of greed...I want to see how well you've thought this out....;)
If I knew what could be done to stop it, I wouldnt be sitting here griping about it on a boating forum. I would be out there trying to change it. I dont have the answers. I just know that they CAN do things to change our country for the better, but they dont.

bigmac
02-13-2008, 03:01 PM
Get rid of NAFTA for starters. Tax the hell out of the companies that willingly eliminate US jobs for less expensive foreign employees(I don't know how, but do it). Pop wal-mart for violation of anti trust laws Because the result of their addition to any community is the shut down over 50% of all the small mom and pops in that area. Build the darn wall already so honest US workers can have those jobs that are being shoveled out to illegals. Drug test those on welfare. Place a high enough tax on imports to make it worthwhile again to buy American, and by all means.. stop taxing the hell out of everbodys income so Americans can afford to buy American..

Hoo boy....! In other words, proceed along the lines that supply and demand isn't a valid economic concept. How much do you think your next television, pair of dress pants, or automobile will cost if they do that?

shepherd
02-13-2008, 03:07 PM
I agree with all of the above and would like to add.......

I'm not a southern bible beating redneck but............we have abandoned the foundation that this country was founded on, GOD. Seperation of Church and State has been misinterpreted and "we the people" (the middle class) are paying for it. I could go on and on but I hope you see my point.

And another thing..........what is the government doing getting in the middle of things like: steroids in sports or even the mortgage crisis.

If I were a profesional athlete and I chose to use steriods, that should be between me, my team and that orginazation, not Washington.

If I choose to borrow more than I can pay, that should be between me and my debtors.

enough rambling for now...

Actually, I believe the foundation that this country was founded on was individual rights and freedom from oppression - not God. While I know the Founding Fathers were God-fearing men, I also believe one motivation for separation of church and state was to prevent the "Church's" influence on a man's choice on how he wants to live his life. But, I agree the separation of church and state has gone too far.

I also very much agree with the rest of your post, and let me add a few.

If I want to buy a pound of marijuana and smoke it (I don't), I should be able to.

If I want to burn the American flag (I don't), I should be able to.

If I want to drive without wearing a seatbelt (I don't), I should be able to.

If I want to marry 3 women (Oh lord, no, I don't!) or another man (ditto!) I should be able to.

Live and let live. Stay out of my life!

damaged442
02-13-2008, 03:08 PM
I was thinking about running for presidency, and when I do, I'm going to Venezuela to hang out with Hugo. I'm going to get him hammered and have him hook us up so we can pay 15 cents a gallon for gas too! Sorry Exxon Mobil, no 15 billion dollar profit this quarter for you!! Anyone else with me?? :headbang: :toast: :friday:

Upper Michigan Prostar190
02-13-2008, 03:13 PM
The over governing of our country is whats ruining it. laws, laws laws. just what we need. more laws. they seem to solve everything dont they? so effective they are.

shepherd
02-13-2008, 03:15 PM
I just finished reading a very interesting book about the Soviet Union. Joe Stalin thought he had the answers too. His "plan" turned out to be the greatest disaster in human history. The number of people this plan killed, in the cruelest ways, is unimaginable. And I thought the Nazis were bad! :(

My point is, there's a lot of people who think they have the answers. Thank God we have the checks and balances our system has. It's far, far, far from perfect, but show me someplace that does it better.

I agree with Bigmac.

Monte
02-13-2008, 03:15 PM
Hoo boy....! In other words, proceed along the lines that supply and demand isn't a valid economic concept. How much do you think your next television, pair of dress pants, or automobile will cost if they do that?

To be honest. If it would get the US jobs back, I'd pay it. It is absolutly rediculous. 10 years ago my community had 12 textile plants. Where did those nearly 10000 jobs go? China. PPG had nearly 2500 employees. They are down to 400. Where did those jobs go? China. Copeland has moved its operation from here 900 jobs to Mexico. All we have now are resturaunts and stores. Oh and Wal Mart. We have 99,000 residents in the county. Do the math.. At one time (not now) we had the highest unemploymet rate in the country. It hurts. Thank goodness Indian motorcycle and Chris Craft decided to set up shop here...

shepherd
02-13-2008, 03:16 PM
The over governing of our country is whats ruining it. laws, laws laws. just what we need. more laws. they seem to solve everything dont they? so effective they are.


I'll second the sarcasm in this post!

76S&S
02-13-2008, 03:24 PM
For those of us that may be a little older, you may remember when our parents and some of us tried "not" to buy anything with "Made in Japan" stamped on it.

I find myself attempting a similar thing for the words "Made in China" when appropriate. Hand tools for instance. I found myself in one of the larger home supply stores looking for an adjustable wrench (which I usually call a Crescent wrench). I could have bought their brand for say $15 (Made in China) but instead I paid roughly 2$ more and bought the Crescent brand which is made in the US.

This is not practical in all situations and we now live in a global economy. Just because I buy an American made truck, it may be assembled in Mexico (Ford). Just because I buy a Toyota truck doesn't mean it's foreign, they have an assembly plant in Texas.

Hell, now I'm confused............I guess I should buy a horse (raised in the US from documented US breeding stock and ride it to work....

ski_king
02-13-2008, 03:25 PM
UMP FOR PRESIDENT!

east tx skier
02-13-2008, 03:30 PM
UM FOR RESIDENT.

Sorry, my "P" key was apparently nonresponsive.

j2nh
02-13-2008, 03:37 PM
Hoo boy....! In other words, proceed along the lines that supply and demand isn't a valid economic concept. How much do you think your next television, pair of dress pants, or automobile will cost if they do that?

It's a good question and this is way out of my area but there has to be a way to equalize with is manufactured outside of this country under substandard health, safety and environmental concerns with what we make in this country under the strictest of regulations.
Pound for pound I would put the American worker up against anyone else in the world but when you throw in environmental controls, workers comp, and safety standards it tips the balance towards imports.

Little bitter about this we just lost our paper plant to overseas dumping.

shepherd
02-13-2008, 03:53 PM
For those of us that may be a little older, you may remember when our parents and some of us tried "not" to buy anything with "Made in Japan" stamped on it.

I find myself attempting a similar thing for the words "Made in China" when appropriate. Hand tools for instance. I found myself in one of the larger home supply stores looking for an adjustable wrench (which I usually call a Crescent wrench). I could have bought their brand for say $15 (Made in China) but instead I paid roughly 2$ more and bought the Crescent brand which is made in the US.

This is not practical in all situations and we now live in a global economy. Just because I buy an American made truck, it may be assembled in Mexico (Ford). Just because I buy a Toyota truck doesn't mean it's foreign, they have an assembly plant in Texas.

Hell, now I'm confused............I guess I should buy a horse (raised in the US from documented US breeding stock and ride it to work....

I'd pay the $2 extra too. As far as American vs. Foreign cars, even if the foreign-brand cars are built here, where do the profits go? And where are taxes on those profits paid? Even if they go to Japan, maybe Americans still come out ahead with the increase in jobs and local taxes paid by the carmakers. I'm as confused as 76SS. Seriously, I don't know. I think the last new vehicle I bought (a GM) was built in Canada. What the hell, I like Canadians. :)

bigmac
02-13-2008, 04:07 PM
I was thinking about running for presidency, and when I do, I'm going to Venezuela to hang out with Hugo. I'm going to get him hammered and have him hook us up so we can pay 15 cents a gallon for gas too! Sorry Exxon Mobil, no 15 billion dollar profit this quarter for you!! Anyone else with me?? :headbang: :toast: :friday:Ho ho...Venezuela's lack of refining capacity means that, if they were going to supply the US, the prices charged by Exxon would look like an incredible bargain by comparison.

Supply and demand. Supply and demand. Supply and demand. It's a global economy now. The US has priced itself out of the global market. Now WE are the only ones that can afford the stuff we still manufacture here, and that is an economic house of cards that has an increasingly limited viability and a large part of the reason even WE can still afford it is that so much of our manufacturing has gone to places where labor is so much cheaper. As near as I can tell, everyone on TT lusts after a big honkin' Duramax 5500 mega-cab with 30-inch duallies to haul their 3000# boat. I contend that no one here would be able to afford anything like such a vehicle if it weren't for GM's outsourcing.

Yes...establish those import tariffs, pass that protectionist legislation. Cut off that nose. Spite that face......

Bruce
02-13-2008, 04:08 PM
Want to know a major part of lost jobs, higher prices for made in America etc, etc. Can you say UNION!!!

bigmac
02-13-2008, 04:19 PM
Want to know a major part of lost jobs, higher prices for made in America etc, etc. Can you say UNION!!!High manufacturing costs in the US, the major part of which are high labor costs, have KILLED our balance of trade and sent MILLIONS of jobs overseas.

76S&S
02-13-2008, 04:23 PM
Want to know a major part of lost jobs, higher prices for made in America etc, etc. Can you say UNION!!!


I am sure there are those that will disagree with me but I feel that Unions have out lived their usefulness.

Not too long ago many Americans worked in unsafe conditions and for low wages. Then along came the unions and organized the workforce. If wages were too low, the employer was basically shut down when no one worked. If working conditions were unsafe they again walked off of the job.

Then the government stepped in, for a good reason, and we now have OSHA to monitor working conditions.

Wages, for the most part, have risen, especially compared to other countries.

So, I don't have much use for Unions anymore..

Upper Michigan Prostar190
02-13-2008, 04:34 PM
Eastie, shut up and go buy a BBE sonic maximizer like I told you to.

Ski king, thanks but you dont want me for prez. Trust me.

Monte
02-13-2008, 04:40 PM
Ho ho...Venezuela's lack of refining capacity means that, if they were going to supply the US, the prices charged by Exxon would look like an incredible bargain by comparison.

Supply and demand. Supply and demand. Supply and demand. It's a global economy now. The US has priced itself out of the global market. Now WE are the only ones that can afford the stuff we still manufacture here, and that is an economic house of cards that has an increasingly limited viability and a large part of the reason even WE can still afford it is that so much of our manufacturing has gone to places where labor is so much cheaper. As near as I can tell, everyone on TT lusts after a big honkin' Duramax 5500 mega-cab with 30-inch duallies to haul their 3000# boat. I contend that no one here would be able to afford anything like such a vehicle if it weren't for GM's outsourcing.

Yes...establish those import tariffs, pass that protectionist legislation. Cut off that nose. Spite that face......

Yes, it is a global economy now. And as you said WE are the only one who can afford OUR products. What do you think will happen if we regulated the prices of TV's and clothing being imported from other countries. Yes things would get expensive for a while, but in the long run. Demand for imports would go down so supply from other countries would go down. Demand for US built goods would go up so supply would have to increase. Thus THEY (other countries) have to shut plants down open them here in order to compete with our companies. That equals US jobs. Thus we can afford the higher prices we have to pay to keep jobs here.
The part that I don't get is we have flushed our own economy down the toilet due to nothing more than greed. We give failing executives HUGE severance packages and drop the benefits for the hard working employee's that successfilly BUILT the company. We send jobs overseas yet expect the economy to thrive. If a man is going to build a house he has to have a job. When the house is built he has to make payments on it he has to have a job. Thing is for that house to be built several tradesmen and their crew have to build that house. If the first man has no job. Neither does the tradesman or his crew. Then they become the second man who still has to pay the mortgage.
It is really hard to look at this nation and its entitlement mentality. We PAY able bodied people to stay home and watch Springer, then GIVE them an income tax refund.. What the hell?? they did no work they EARNED no income.

stuartmcnair
02-13-2008, 04:45 PM
Like what? You mean import tariffs? Passing legislation making outsourcing illegal? Laws to prevent US companies from relocating outside the US? Name some things that elected officials could do to keep the US job market going, but that they aren't doing because of greed...I want to see how well you've thought this out....;)

I'll bite. We discussed this at lunch today. I may be wrong so call me on it if I am because we could not figure this out. The US Government has a very screwy tax setup for international business that really kills US manufacturers. If General Motors sells a car in the US then they pay taxes on that revenue. If General Motors sells a car in Europe they pay European taxes AND US taxes. (yes, oversimplified). Now, if a German corporation sells a car in the US they pay US taxes but not German taxes. So the companies based in the US get hit twice. So, in the long run, jobs and manufacturing are moved overseas and US corporations relocate HQ to an island in the Bahamas to get away from the taxes.

Now I have not discussed this with a good friend of mine who is a big muckety-muck in the IRS in the International Business section so I am not sure but this was the consensus from the lunch group and we decided it sucked.

TMCNo1
02-13-2008, 05:22 PM
I'm gonna eat a meatloaf sandwich and some pickled eggs and blow the whole world up. Talk about the "Big Bang"!

Just think UMP, you might survive and become a moon!

bigmac
02-13-2008, 06:54 PM
Yes, it is a global economy now. And as you said WE are the only one who can afford OUR products. What do you think will happen if we regulated the prices of TV's and clothing being imported from other countries.
I think that all of those countries would enact retaliatory trade tarrifs as they have in the past, every time we've tried it. It would be an unmitigated economic disaster. The US would be a third-world nation in a matter of two decades instead of five.

Monte
02-13-2008, 06:59 PM
I think that all of those countries would enact retaliatory trade tarrifs as they have in the past, every time we've tried it. It would be an unmitigated economic disaster. The US would be a third-world nation in a matter of two decades instead of five.

Oh well, We are sunk.. So we're going to be a third world nation in 50 years??


Maybe then.. Illegal immigrants will leave..


Now I'm depressed

milkmania
02-13-2008, 09:24 PM
This Country of ours is going to Hell in a handbasket!:mad:

that was said during the Nixon Administration, the Ford Administration, the Carter Administration, the Reagan Administration, the first Bush Administration, the Clinton Administration, the second Bush Administration.

It was probably said before the Nixon administration and it will continute to be said about the upcoming administration.


:twocents:

phecksel
02-13-2008, 09:57 PM
I am sure there are those that will disagree with me but I feel that Unions have out lived their usefulness.

Not too long ago many Americans worked in unsafe conditions and for low wages. Then along came the unions and organized the workforce. If wages were too low, the employer was basically shut down when no one worked. If working conditions were unsafe they again walked off of the job.

Then the government stepped in, for a good reason, and we now have OSHA to monitor working conditions.

Wages, for the most part, have risen, especially compared to other countries.

So, I don't have much use for Unions anymore..

OSHA has turned into a toothless useless organization. There was a company in MI that had someone die in a press, and this was after OSHA had received several complaints and did nothing to resolve the concerns. No person in their right mind would expect workers to do what they were expecting people to do.

Friend of my wifes left her old employer three months ago to join a new company. Good wages, medical care, etc. During the 90 days probation, you work at a reduced wage and no medical. After 75 days, she received a glowing interim review. After 88 days she was unemployed, was told it's a right to work state and she could reapply in 60 days.

In several areas and especially in MI, you don't walk off the job you have no matter how unsafe, because you'll be unemployed. I've said here before, this is an extremely complex subject that will not be easy to solve, if it's even solvable. You can not tell me that any one person is worth tens of millions of dollars. I've watched some pretty highly paid management make some absolutely ridiculous decisions. Unions had a power that has largely gone away with the global environment. Problem is, those over paid union employees bought products they didn't need. We don't need MasterCrafts, hell we don't NEED a boat. MI sold a LOT of boats in the past years. I suspect the attendance at this boat show which has attracted hundreds of thousands of people in the past, will have a small turnout. MasterCraft employees may buy products that bring home your bacon.

bigmac
02-14-2008, 12:26 AM
Oh well, We are sunk.. So we're going to be a third world nation in 50 years??


Maybe then.. Illegal immigrants will leave..



Yup. They'll likely all be heading to China.

Monte
02-14-2008, 12:30 AM
Yup. They'll likely all be heading to China.

Hey! maybe I can become illegal over there:rolleyes:

lanier92prostar
02-14-2008, 12:31 AM
Then you would have to work for next to nothing illegal or legal!!

Monte
02-14-2008, 12:36 AM
Then you would have to work for next to nothing illegal or legal!!
Yeah, but the free healthcare.... They would give:rolleyes:

phecksel
02-14-2008, 01:08 PM
Yeah, but the free healthcare.... They would give:rolleyes:
yea, there free health care amounts to, "oh, you're sick, drink this hemlock".

stuartmcnair
02-14-2008, 01:30 PM
technically, it's not free health care. They charge the family for the cost of the bullet.