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Jerseydave
01-19-2008, 09:44 AM
Now it looks like the Chinese are trying to import cars into the U.S.

After tainted dog food and lead-painted toys, how many americans will be buying these cars? As if our automotive industry isn't hurting enough, do we really need this? I heard the state of Michigan and its economy is not well at all, maybe it's time we start buying american again. Yes the Japanese and Germans build great cars (I'm guilty of owning one) but should we give in to the Chinese and Koreans too?

Hyundai has made a big impact in the car industry as well as the construction equipment industry too. I'm sure this has hurt Cat and Deere. All in the name of price, I guess.

Comments?

bigmac
01-19-2008, 10:04 AM
Now it looks like the Chinese are trying to import cars into the U.S.

After tainted dog food and lead-painted toys, how many americans will be buying these cars? As if our automotive industry isn't hurting enough, do we really need this? I heard the state of Michigan and its economy is not well at all, maybe it's time we start buying american again. Yes the Japanese and Germans build great cars (I'm guilty of owning one) but should we give in to the Chinese and Koreans too?

Hyundai has made a big impact in the car industry as well as the construction equipment industry too. I'm sure this has hurt Cat and Deere. All in the name of price, I guess.

Comments?
In this global economy, what do you propose we could do about it? Embargo Chinese cars? Impose tariffs? We already have a killer trade deficit, what happens when the Chinese inevitably retaliate by doing the same for US goods that we're trying to export to them? Bad news. Trade protection doesn't work, has bitten us on the *** many times over the last 100 years.

The only thing that's going to protect the US auto industry from this type of competition in the coming years is to become more competitive on price. In that regard, the closer General Motors' labor costs get to Chinese labor costs, the better GM will do here and abroad.

Same argument for the US electronics and textile industries (what there is left of them).

j2nh
01-19-2008, 10:22 AM
In this global economy, what do you propose we could do about it? Embargo Chinese cars? Impose tariffs? We already have a killer trade deficit, what happens when the Chinese inevitably retaliate by doing the same for US goods that we're trying to export to them? Bad news. Trade protection doesn't work, has bitten us on the *** many times over the last 100 years.

The only thing that's going to protect the US auto industry from this type of competition in the coming years is to become more competitive on price. In that regard, the closer General Motors' labor costs get to Chinese labor costs, the better GM will do here and abroad.

Same argument for the US electronics and textile industries (what there is left of them).

But how do you compete against a Chinese auto manufacturer that:
Does not offer health insurance to its employees.
Does not pay its employees anything close to a decent wage.
Operates in a system that does not have unemployment insurance, which creates an "I cannot lose my job" mentality.
Operates with minimum safety standards.
Operates with minimum environmental controls.

I am all for free trade but the traders need to be on equal footing. Sorry, until China decides it want's to be part of the modern world and treat its workers and the environment with some respect they can keep their cars, paper, lead filled toys, and antifreeze filled medicine in Beijing.

TheOneandOnly
01-19-2008, 10:30 AM
But how do you compete against a Chinese auto manufacturer that:
Does not offer health insurance to its employees.
Does not pay its employees anything close to a decent wage.
Operates in a system that does not have unemployment insurance, which creates an "I cannot lose my job" mentality.
Operates with minimum safety standards.
Operates with minimum environmental controls.

I am all for free trade but the traders need to be on equal footing. Sorry, until China decides it want's to be part of the modern world and treat its workers and the environment with some respect they can keep their cars, paper, lead filled toys, and antifreeze filled medicine in Beijing.


ahhh men brotha

bigmac
01-19-2008, 11:19 AM
I am all for free trade but the traders need to be on equal footing. Sorry, until China decides it want's to be part of the modern world and treat its workers and the environment with some respect they can keep their cars, paper, lead filled toys, and antifreeze filled medicine in Beijing.

Yeah that would be great, and likely someday (20-30 years) that will be true as the "global market" becomes truly global, but we can't force that to happen - those demands will have to come from the Chinese labor force. In the meantime, the labor cost disparity will remain, and the problem of trade balance remains - people will buy cheaper goods, companies will have their electronics assembled and garments sewn where the labor is cheaper. It may not be fair, but it's reality.

This problem of the US not being able to compete well in the global economy isn't new....it's just starting to really come to a boil these days. Fact is, we've priced ourselves out of the global market because of our high labor costs. Americans as a group are about the only people in the world that can afford the goods that Americans manufacture.

fskof
01-19-2008, 11:30 AM
The Chinese have been trying to import there car to the US and Europe for the last 10 years. Not one of there cars has been able to pass any of the crash and safty test. As of right now they are great at copying car designs but they dont understand the Engineering of safty into there products. But once they figure that out look out world China will be taking over which wont be good for the world!

If you search the web you can find videos of crash tests of chinese cars and see what the results are after a sinple 25 mph crash test!

92 190 PS
01-19-2008, 11:38 AM
ahhh men brotha

As an employee of a company that was the first in 30+ years to win a suit against the Asians for illegal trade I couldn't agree more (US Trade Commission found Injury for Unfair Trade). On top of all the regulations and employment abuse there is the Chinese government writing checks every time they import our product (paper) to the US. Subsidies because the Chinese government built all of these world class paper machines years before the demand for paper in China caught up. Somehow it becomes our problem especially on the West Coast where it's easy to get imports to the US...

So let me get this straight.....We're supposed to compete with Asian manufactures owned in part by the Chinese government, that have their new state of the art machines built and paid for by the Chinese government, with minimal or no environmental regulations, government subsidies and poor employment laws? Oh ya and they log all of their wood without any regard for the environment.....While US paper companies have taken major strides to protect our natural resources to the nth degree (rightfully so)....

Bottom line I'll take my 4000+ US labor force and on a FAIR playing field we'll kick their ar$$e$ all the way back to Asia 2x over. And we'll do it in an environmentally friendly and sustainable way for generations of American's to come.....

My 2 cents....

Hammer
01-19-2008, 11:42 AM
BUY AMERICAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know its hard to do, but the results will be worth it.

jakethebt
01-19-2008, 12:25 PM
"In this global economy, what do you propose we could do about it? Embargo Chinese cars? Impose tariffs? We already have a killer trade deficit, what happens when the Chinese inevitably retaliate by doing the same for US goods that we're trying to export to them? "

Hmmm... Let’s see. Yes. Yes. And oh no! What does China import from the US? Raw materials to build junk to send back to us. If we stopped exporting raw materials to China, our US made products would be cheaper because the US companies would not have to compete with China.

I use to work for a major auto parts supplier as an engineer. After about 10 years of 3rd world countries making our parts they were ready to start designing them. Bye bye job!

It is difficult to determine what is American now with Honda/Toyota building so many cars here and GM/Ford building so many in Canada/Mexico. However one thing to consider is that at least they all have some integrity. Paying their employees good wages, health care as noted above, etc. China is still a communist country treating their people very badly. They also have no issues with stealing ideas or copying designs.

If you look closely, it is not too hard to buy American and it is not that much more expensive. How would you feel if some Chinese boat company purchased a brand new X-star, copied the design and started selling “their” version for $25k new? Oh and by the way, MC’s price will go up on their X-star by $2k and a 4 week delay on all orders because they have to compete for new engines with MasterChina. Start buying cars from China and you will increase the problems for the US car makers by more than just them loosing a single car sale.

CarlosCabanas
01-19-2008, 01:00 PM
"In this global economy, what do you propose we could do about it? Embargo Chinese cars? Impose tariffs? We already have a killer trade deficit, what happens when the Chinese inevitably retaliate by doing the same for US goods that we're trying to export to them? "

Hmmm... Let’s see. Yes. Yes. And oh no! What does China import from the US? Raw materials to build junk to send back to us. If we stopped exporting raw materials to China, our US made products would be cheaper because the US companies would not have to compete with China.

I use to work for a major auto parts supplier as an engineer. After about 10 years of 3rd world countries making our parts they were ready to start designing them. Bye bye job!

It is difficult to determine what is American now with Honda/Toyota building so many cars here and GM/Ford building so many in Canada/Mexico. However one thing to consider is that at least they all have some integrity. Paying their employees good wages, health care as noted above, etc. China is still a communist country treating their people very badly. They also have no issues with stealing ideas or copying designs.

If you look closely, it is not too hard to buy American and it is not that much more expensive. How would you feel if some Chinese boat company purchased a brand new X-star, copied the design and started selling “their” version for $25k new? Oh and by the way, MC’s price will go up on their X-star by $2k and a 4 week delay on all orders because they have to compete for new engines with MasterChina. Start buying cars from China and you will increase the problems for the US car makers by more than just them loosing a single car sale.

Well said!! Buy locally!!

tex
01-19-2008, 01:17 PM
No, I beleive they are a Boston band.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cars

Farmer Ted
01-19-2008, 01:19 PM
But how do you compete against a Chinese auto manufacturer that:
Does not offer health insurance to its employees.
Does not pay its employees anything close to a decent wage.
Operates in a system that does not have unemployment insurance, which creates an "I cannot lose my job" mentality.
Operates with minimum safety standards.
Operates with minimum environmental controls.

I am all for free trade but the traders need to be on equal footing. Sorry, until China decides it want's to be part of the modern world and treat its workers and the environment with some respect they can keep their cars, paper, lead filled toys, and antifreeze filled medicine in Beijing.



If America wants to be competitive, Unions need to go, there are no incentives to be inovative or cost effective as long as workers can hide behind a Union.

Here's an example;

I can remove a panel with 40 screws in about 10 minutes (using a speed handle)

A union guy gets 3.5 hours to remove the same panel (using a high speed)

He really should only get 3.3 hours, but because the "standard" is 12 fasteners an hour but since we only deal in .5 hour increments (another union rule) we have to round to the nearest half hour

So tell me how effective and competitive the union again?

TheOneandOnly
01-19-2008, 01:34 PM
This reminds me of our business, there are 2 huge companies in our market, we have been at it for the last 5yrs, when we go to bid for the government contracts we can kill the others since we are cheaper, smaller company and just as good.

As oil/gas goes higher, everything else goes higher, people can not afford the daily essentials as such look for the cheapest possible item, which will always be china.

Should we ever go into battle with them all they have to do is taint our medicine which would kill and/or sicken millions, think about how much we get from them, I hear 50% of our medicine comes from them... makes me sic

BUY AMERICAN!!!!

Farmer Ted
01-19-2008, 01:56 PM
This reminds me of our business, there are 2 huge companies in our market, we have been at it for the last 5yrs, when we go to bid for the government contracts we can kill the others since we are cheaper, smaller company and just as good.

As oil/gas goes higher, everything else goes higher, people can not afford the daily essentials as such look for the cheapest possible item, which will always be china.

Should we ever go into battle with them all they have to do is taint our medicine which would kill and/or sicken millions, think about how much we get from them, I hear 50% of our medicine comes from them... makes me sic

BUY AMERICAN!!!!


I was listening to talk radio the other day when I was in Iowa and the topic of the day was wages. A guy called in and mentioned that if he sends a crew to do a job in Minnesota the same job in Iowa would be 1/3 cheaper due to the garanteed wage in MN.

What's up with that? Is there a law in MN that people have to get a certain wage?

I only caught the last part of the call and didn't get the info from the start of the call.

Leroy
01-19-2008, 02:02 PM
Did you know many of the problem toys were resold by US companies. Mattel being one of the larger companies with this problem.

China is outsourcing manufacturing of products already to lower cost places like Vietnam.

It will probably take 10 years for China to be an effective competitor in the US car market. GM needs to keep the pressure up to sell their cars there. Given the wealth created in China, Caddy's and high end Euro cars are hot there. For GM to sell one Caddy in China is worth 10 Geely's sold here.....

Taiwan is 15-20 years ahead of China's economy and all you see on the road there is big black BMW's and Mercedes.

We also need to keep the pressure on China for intellectual property thief.

corey
01-19-2008, 02:05 PM
I dont know of any guarunteed wage laws in MN aside from the Federal Minimum Wage. What type of business was this guy in?

If he is subcontracting work and the average wage in MN is higher he would have to pay workers more than in an area with a slightly lower average wage, but thats a supply and demand issue not a wage law issue.

TheOneandOnly
01-19-2008, 02:08 PM
No law other than minimum wage that im aware of. Look to California, they pay ppl at Mcd's 10.00 an hour here in MN its 7.50.

Its all comes down to cost of living, same house here in MN is 300k, go to cali pay 700k. We can pay someone for a job here in MN 50k salary a year, same job in NYC is 90k a year...

However china is what were talking about 20 cents an hour for a employee, boy if we could pay that to our employees we'd be fillthy rich.

Lennyp04
01-19-2008, 02:34 PM
while were on the subject of foreign cars, what about the Tata from India. Its only $2500. I think its also only made of plastic

Maristar210
01-19-2008, 02:41 PM
You know why the Chinese kick our ***?

OSHA
EPA
DEQ
Workman's Compensation

Somewhere there is a group of idiots collecting a paycheck for making sure each business owner in the US spends thousands each year in senseless regulatory compliance.

Want an example: In a 55 person shop I have to spend $2500 per year to track hearing loss in my guys. Each employee has to be tested. You aren't actually required to do anything about it, but you have to track it.

I can show repeated examples of this in the Great Lakes State :rolleyes:

flipper
01-19-2008, 02:42 PM
But how do you compete against a Chinese auto manufacturer that:
Does not offer health insurance to its employees.
Does not pay its employees anything close to a decent wage.
Operates in a system that does not have unemployment insurance, which creates an "I cannot lose my job" mentality.
Operates with minimum safety standards.
Operates with minimum environmental controls.

I am all for free trade but the traders need to be on equal footing. Sorry, until China decides it want's to be part of the modern world and treat its workers and the environment with some respect they can keep their cars, paper, lead filled toys, and antifreeze filled medicine in Beijing.
I'm with ya on that!!!

Farmer Ted
01-19-2008, 02:42 PM
I dont know of any guarunteed wage laws in MN aside from the Federal Minimum Wage. What type of business was this guy in?

If he is subcontracting work and the average wage in MN is higher he would have to pay workers more than in an area with a slightly lower average wage, but thats a supply and demand issue not a wage law issue.


I really don't know, like I said, I didn't catch the beginning of the conversation, it may have been a contract awarded through the state for some sort of construction.

tph
01-19-2008, 04:09 PM
Even the Hyperlite wakeboard I just bought was made in China

bigmac
01-19-2008, 06:16 PM
I was listening to talk radio the other day when I was in Iowa and the topic of the day was wages. A guy called in and mentioned that if he sends a crew to do a job in Minnesota the same job in Iowa would be 1/3 cheaper due to the garanteed wage in MN.

What's up with that? Is there a law in MN that people have to get a certain wage?

He might be required to hire union subcontractors in Minnesota, but not in Iowa. That jacks the price up considerably.

Chief
01-19-2008, 06:25 PM
Why not: Every damn thing else is made there. I would rather by from Japan, at least they are on our side. F the Chinese!

flipper
01-19-2008, 06:30 PM
Why not: Every damn thing else is made there. I would rather by from Japan, at least they are on our side. F the Chinese!
Agree with that too!!!

flipper
01-19-2008, 07:04 PM
I see people talking about different ways to keep up with their prices. It brings up all kinds of questions for me though.

1. Who wants to work for next to nothing like they do?
2. Who wants to sleep on the dirt floor of their hut like they do?
3. Who wants to eat a rice bowl three meals a day like they do?
4. Who wants the over all quality of life, that the factory workers over in China have?

Assuming that all of the answers are "not me" for everybody, then how can anybody say make labor cheaper here, and treat Americans here the way that they treat their people over there? Who wants to be that person working in the factory?

TX.X-30 fan
01-19-2008, 08:06 PM
What does GM spend in "total Wages" including benefits?? Gm Is not even in the car business anymore. They should offer some catastrophic health care, a 401k with some matching and that is it. GM would then own the planet and never have another layoff. All the unions have done is prematurely end the careers of thousands of hard working men and women in the auto industry.

Workin' 4 Toys
01-19-2008, 08:13 PM
I am not going to say what I REALLY think (for reasons I am not going to explain). But I have a comment on these chinese cars. Have you ever been in a Kia? What's the difference between this and that? One hit= Dead...
I have heard the name has changed some. The company at one point was Chery. Now it's something else I think.
I have also heard these cars will be sold under the Chrysler umbrella. And that was back when it was DaimlerChrysler and Chrysler has since been sold back to an US owned investment group. So this has yet to be proven..

On the same note: How about the cars from India for $2500.00...Who would buy those?? Probably the same folks that would buy a G.E.M. car (look it up if you don't know what it is) or a "Scooter" by any manufacturer... I ask, Could it be any less safe for the road?