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Footin
11-22-2007, 12:08 PM
We are going to hit a few stores on Black Friday looking at Plasma's and I have a few questions:

The one we like is a Panansonic 42 with 720 res/picture. Is it really worth it to pay 500.00 more for the 1080?

I DO NOT have digital cable (and will not get it), and I don't think the 720 vs 1080 will be noticeable in my house because of this. Am I correct in my assumption.

JBaker
11-22-2007, 12:46 PM
I am assuming you mean paying $500.00 more for a 1080p. You can probably get away with the 720p/1080i. This is especially true because you are looking at a 42". The difference in quality becomes increasingly more important the larger the screen size.

Unless by chance you have or are planning to pick up a HD-DVD or Blu-Ray disc player, save the gas money!

JimN
11-22-2007, 12:48 PM
On a 42", I wouldn't worry about 1080 unless you plan to get a Blu-Ray or HD DVD. Provided with a good, clean signal, 720 looks great.

Remember- one thing that happens on Black Friday is "bait and switch". Many retailers will have "leader" items that are in very short supply and "they won't be at the same price next time they're in stock" but they'll be more than happy to "set you up" with a comparable model that's actually "better" than the one they advertised.

I went to one store and looked at laptops yesterday. They told me about the one that will be on sale tomorrow and I asked how many they'll be getting. He said they get six of them and no more. The one on display "was being configured for someone and they didn't come back for it", which meant that I couldn't even see it in action for the simplest things.

I walked and if you can't get what you want, at the price you want to pay, wait. If you're looking for deals, the week after Christmas is one of the best times to buy. Tomorrow is the busiest shopping day of the year and the month between Thanksgiving and Christmas are where most retailers make their annual profits (on average).

tex
11-22-2007, 01:12 PM
If you are not hanging it on the wall-Buy DLP

TX.X-30 fan
11-22-2007, 01:16 PM
We are going to hit a few stores on Black Friday looking at Plasma's and I have a few questions:

The one we like is a Panansonic 42 with 720 res/picture. Is it really worth it to pay 500.00 more for the 1080?

DO NIOT have digital cable (and will not get it), and I don't think the 720 vs 1080 will be noticeable in my house because of this. Am I correct in my assumption.




I think if all you are getting with your cable is 480 or 520i what would it matter??? Jim or JBaker may know more. ;)

I do think you would like HD if you ever decide to go that way with cable or Direct tv.

TX.X-30 fan
11-22-2007, 01:17 PM
If you are not hanging it on the wall-Buy DLP




I have never heard you speak of this dlp before????? :D :D :rolleyes:

tex
11-22-2007, 01:30 PM
I have never heard you speak of this dlp before????? :D :D :rolleyes:
It's what all the cool kids are into these days!

TheOneandOnly
11-22-2007, 01:45 PM
get the 1080p, ive had both 720p & 1080p. Even with a standard input sig of 480 the internal upscalein of the signal is siginificantly better on our sony 1080p tv. And very noticeable, then again depends on brand and the components they use inside. Ive found sony to be the best with LCD's, plus they last signif longer.

Keep in mind that 1080p dvd players are coming down in price, direct tv is now offering 70+ hD channels with the goal to have all 150 channels HD 1080i. My vote 1080P all the way no questions asked...

floridamastercraft
11-22-2007, 02:33 PM
I went though the same thing this week.... I was looking at 42 plasma or LCD's than 720 or 1080.... It was for the bedroom so I ended up getting the Panansonic 42" (TH42PX75U) 720p it was on sale better than black friday with 30 day price match... I got if for $748 from Brandsmart and in today's ad its 798 and circuit city 999.... I'm happy with it for the bedroom...

Andyg
11-22-2007, 03:28 PM
I agree with Jimn. Unless you have a blue ray disc player there is really no point in getting a 1080p tv. I seriously doubt that any cable, over the air, or dish network will be broadcasting any programs in 1080p in the next several years as it takes up so much bandwith on their networks. Not to mention I would be suprised if there is a $500 worth of difference in picture quality. All four of my tvs are 720p/1080i and I love the picture quality of the HD programming.

osmonet
11-22-2007, 03:42 PM
If you are on a budget, take a look at Costco. They have a black friday 50 inch 1080i (720P) Vizio Plasma tv for $999.00 for black friday. Just a warning, if you dont have digital cable or HD programming, the picture quality of anything bigger than a 37" looks pretty bad.

My $.02

JimN
11-22-2007, 03:46 PM
1080i is basically indistinguishable from 1080p in most cases. The one time is when the video is generated directly to the TV from a computer or disc that is set up for those two resolutions, with output from a device that can faithfully send it to the display. From any other resolution, it's basically a mathematical conversion to get the picture to fit in a certain amount of space.

Here's a couple of links on the topic: www.hometheatermag.com/gearworks/1106gear/index.html and a slightly older article,
www.hometheatermag.com/hookmeup/1106hook/

zxmarc
11-22-2007, 05:35 PM
after 3 weeks of shopping i just picked up a panasonic 42` p77u. I looked at both DLP and plasma... both 1080p to match picture quality of the 1080p plasma i had to go 1080p 120 hertz in DLP, even with 1080p the picture was not as nice...
i had the 2 sony's side by side (the 60 herts on vs 120 hertz) and the difference is very noticable, especialy when the camera pans to one side and the action to the other, like in alot of sports, even with regular tv signal.
If you are going to watch sports you best put a little more money now, imo even a plasma with 720 is better than a DLP 1080p running 60hertzs.
Then sony 120 hertz vs plasma 1080 and they were pretty close, the plasma being a little more fluid.

so my 2 cents is .... if you go DLP get the 120 hertz.
Or spend a lot less and get a plasma.

BTW mine has a anti glare screen and is set up in the living room upstairs... no problem with glare whatsoever. ( i had a lot of clerks tell me that i need to watch a plasma in the dark... also screen burn in is no longer a problem .

here is a link to a site you might enjoy
http://www.plasmatvbuyingguide.com/

good luck
and take your time...

Footin
11-22-2007, 10:37 PM
Thanks for all the advice. I think we are going to look at the picture quality tomorrow. As far as the 'bait and switch" I will walk if they don't have it, I don't need a new tv, just want a bigger one.

KevenAtWakeUSF
11-23-2007, 12:09 PM
The panasonics you guys are talking about are AWESOME TV'S! I have both the 42 and 50 inch versions in 720p and I love them!

ivectoryou
11-23-2007, 02:41 PM
If you are not hanging it on the wall-Buy DLP

Could you please explain why. We are going to buy a new t.v. for Christmas and I'm just starting my research. We have digital cable and a fairly dark room to watch t.v. in. We are only about 6 ft. from the screen when sitting on the couch (skinny room). Is it possible to have too big of a screen while sitting that close?

Mainly, I want to know what D.L.P. is and why you think it's better than plasma if we aren't going to hang it on the wall.

Thanks and Happy Holidays.

Go Ducks! Beat the Bruins (and thanks U.S.C. for winning last night).

tex
11-23-2007, 03:25 PM
www.dlp.com
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/dlp.htm

Good stuff. Better picture quality and no burn in. This is important if you plan to play games on it!

Plus the Brand Manager for TI and DLP is very hot!

JimN
11-23-2007, 03:53 PM
ivectoryou- from 6', look at them from the same distance in the stores. At 6', you'll see every flaw in the picture. LCDs have "pixel creep" or "dot crawl" on action scenes, DLPs have a "rainbow" that can show on the edges of some things. Plasma has some issue with "burn-in" but some models have a white balance setting that can counter the effects of this. From 6', you'll also be able to see the "mask" on the screen. Ideally, you want to be outside of the range where you can see any if this "mask". Basically, it's the same kind of thing you see on a TV tube when you're close-up.

At this range, an LCD will probably give the "cleanest" picture, with regard to the screen itself. There's no perfect display but look at it from the distance you'll see it at home and don't let the sales people set the Color, Sharpness, Brightness, etc for you. Start with those settings in the middle positions and go from there. On all displays, setting these really high shortens the bulb/screen life considerably.

tex
11-23-2007, 04:06 PM
Don't trust the sales person too much. They sometimes have a bonus tied to which tv they sale.

JimN
11-23-2007, 04:32 PM
"Don't trust the sales person too much. They sometimes have a bonus tied to which tv they sale."

The flip side of this is that if anyone finds a sales person they can and do trust, make sure to always go to that person. They'll call back when they say they will (usually), let you know when specials are coming up and may give better prices than what's shown on the tags, even when there's no special sale gong on. There's usually some wiggle room in the price, anyway, so find someone who doesn't act like a "typical used car salesman".

They're usually paid based on profit, and while spiffs may be on certain models, being an informed customer is the best policy. There's no reason to hate a good salesperson. It's not a fun job, especially the way consumers grind on price alone. If they sell their azz off and do it right, they should be rewarded. Just being spiffed doesn't make it a bad product, it may just be last year's model and at some point, it's going to be a year old, anyway. If it comes with a full warranty, it's not necessarily a bad deal.

One thing I would add to buying recommendations for TVs- if it's expensive and could have a problem in less than 5 years, buy the extended warranty. For a couple of hundred dollars, replacing a screen or some main component in a plasma display will save you from paying $800- $1500 for one part.

Footin
11-23-2007, 04:39 PM
Went this morning to get the 42" Panasonic for 899.99 and they were already sold out. We will continue to look now and after Christmas.

ivectoryou
11-23-2007, 06:37 PM
Thanks!

Dan

www.dlp.com
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/dlp.htm

Good stuff. Better picture quality and no burn in. This is important if you plan to play games on it!

Plus the Brand Manager for TI and DLP is very hot!

ivectoryou
11-23-2007, 06:39 PM
JimN,

Thanks for the info. I just got home and measured the distance and it's closer to a 9ft. viewing distance. I'm thinking that I should not exceed 42" at that close of a distance.

Thanks again,

Dan

zxmarc
11-23-2007, 07:38 PM
QUOTE
`One thing I would add to buying recommendations for TVs- if it's expensive and could have a problem in less than 5 years, buy the extended warranty. For a couple of hundred dollars, replacing a screen or some main component in a plasma display will save you from paying $800- $1500 for one part.`


panasonic's have a 2% return rate, average repair cost 400.00, this is for both dlp and plasma... look up any consumer help site and they all say NOT to get separate insurance. If you get a good make (pioneer,panasonic, sony) don't spend money on added insurance. look up site, they say that for most electronic product we purchase. I don't see why i would pay $300.00 insurance on a $800.00 tv that will be replacable for $300.00 in 4 years....


also burn in is no longer a problem on good quality plasma... this was not the case 5 years ago.

zxmarc
11-23-2007, 07:41 PM
i've been told the ideal distance for watching is twice the screen size.

TX.X-30 fan
11-23-2007, 08:00 PM
i've been told the ideal distance for watching is twice the screen size.



This might help............ http://www.myhometheater.homestead.com/viewingdistancecalculator.html


We sit 12' from a 92" Stewart/firehawk.

phecksel
11-23-2007, 09:12 PM
What about projectors?

JimN
11-23-2007, 09:32 PM
"panasonic's have a 2% return rate, average repair cost 400.00, this is for both dlp and plasma... look up any consumer help site and they all say NOT to get separate insurance. If you get a good make (pioneer,panasonic, sony) don't spend money on added insurance. look up site, they say that for most electronic product we purchase. I don't see why i would pay $300.00 insurance on a $800.00 tv that will be replacable for $300.00 in 4 years...."

zxmarc- I sell and install A/V systems, home theater and voice data. I have sold this kind of equipment for 29 years. I have read what Consumer reports says and in some cases, like white goods, tires and some other things, I think they're accurate. In consumer electronics, I sometimes disagree strongly. 2% is twice what the defect rate was and return rate is not the correct stat to be concerned with. People return things for a lot of reasons beside defects. I don't care about anything other than defects and if this is actually the defect rate, it's bad. 1% has always been the goal.

Where did you get the $400 average repair rate? That can't possibly involve a control module or screen and I have seen parts costs for these and most are a lot more than that. When we look at an $800 plasma, it's not an $800 plasma, it's usually a $1200 plasma. There's a difference. To be honest, an $800 is not going to be the best and on that, I would agree that an extended warranty is not cost effective. What would you recommend for a person who wants a 60" plasma? That's not going to be $800. Is it worthwhile then? I think it is. I don't like the "everything is disposable" mentality. I think there's a lot wrong with it and the people who believe it. Yes, there's a point where it's just not worth spending anything to repair it but what do you do with all of the dead TVs?

JimN
11-23-2007, 10:03 PM
TX.X-30 fan- "We sit 12' from a 92" Stewart/firehawk."

But the distance from the projector to the screen, added to the viewing distance matters and it's not direct-view, like a plasma, LCD or CRT. The screen diffuses the light and softens the image of the pixels, mask or whatever the specific system uses to separate the colors/fields. 12' is a good viewing distance for a lot of displays.

Re: 2x screen size- not a bad rule of thumb but it looks more real if you can't see any of the mask.

Footin
11-23-2007, 10:11 PM
Just saw another store has a 42" 720 Sharp on sale for 799 and a 46" 1080 Sharp for 1299. Might go look tomorrow.

crdickey
11-23-2007, 10:11 PM
Here is the spot where you can learn anything you need to know about flat screens. http://www.plasmatvbuyingguide.com/index.html

They have excellent reviews of all the best units made. Panasonic is the bench mark the whole industry uses to build to. Plazma burn in is a thing of the past on all the top line models from NEC, Panasonic and Pioneer.

Buy the best resolution you can afford because digital TV and the HD signals are going to be the only thing available shortly. If you have not seen a ball game in HD you don't know what you're missing. I have a Panasonic unit that looks so life like it's amazing. We just finished watching the DVD Planet Earth, WOW is all I can say!

1080p is the best there is currently, and DirecTV is pushing out 75+ channels of 1080i. Projection, DLP & LCD are good but Plazma is worth the upgrade, especially in a brightly lit room. Our living room is 75% windows and unless the sun is shining directly on the screen the picture pops off the screen. I've got a 42" in my living room right now and will be picking up a 50" to take its place and put the 42" on the patio. I'll buy it on line, just like the 42", and it will be delivered to my door and still save money verses going to my local electronics store.

Try these three links and see for yourself.

http://www.dtvcity.com/
http://www.plasmadepot.com/
http://www.dtvexpress.com/

lav
11-23-2007, 11:05 PM
If you are not hanging it on the wall-Buy DLP
just picked this one up tonighttp://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Toshiba-65-DLP-Rear-Projection-HDTV-65HM167/sem/rpsm/oid/177533/catOid/-12870/rpem/ccd/productDetail.doht this is my 2nd one 50" sammy will go to garage now

lav
11-23-2007, 11:06 PM
sorry dont know why it didnt hyperlink try again http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Toshiba-65-DLP-Rear-Projection-HDTV-65HM167/sem/rpsm/oid/177533/catOid/-12870/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

TX.X-30 fan
11-24-2007, 12:42 AM
When did plasma correct the burn-in problem?? From what I read on the forums its still the biggest problem. As far as light output what is higher that LCD?? I read most theater magazines and I have not read the advances that you speak of with plasma. Looked into it but unless its for a dedicated home theater I found the down side was too much for my tastes.

zxmarc
11-24-2007, 12:43 AM
zxmarc- I sell and install A/V systems, home theater and voice data. I have sold this kind of equipment for 29 years. I have read what Consumer reports says and in some cases, like white goods, tires and some other things, I think they're accurate. In consumer electronics, I sometimes disagree strongly. 2% is twice what the defect rate was and return rate is not the correct stat to be concerned with. People return things for a lot of reasons beside defects. I don't care about anything other than defects and if this is actually the defect rate, it's bad. 1% has always been the goal.

JimN
i understand that you are against not getting added insurance, but i beleive that consumer reports are not biased and lookout for the consumer.
So if the rate is 1% and average repair is not $400 but say... $800, i have one chance in 100 that i have to spend $800 to get the tv repaired... or pay $300 and get insurance. So i pay $300 to not have $800 repair.thats a $500 gamble on a 100 to 1. not shure i want to do that.
The insurance company.... on the other hand collect 100 X $300.00
thats $30,000, and from that amount they pay ONE repair at average $800.00 even if it was $3000.00 thats still $27000 profit.... now THATS a gamble i would take.
So how much does the store/retailer getfor selling one of these `insurances`


If i purchased a plasma 4 years ago and spent $4000.00 how much would the extra insurance have cost me? i'm shure more than the price to replace the tv, as the prices have gone down considerably.
All the electronic appliances i ever purchased have never let me down, at least not in the first 3 years of use...

We purchased a fridge and stove last month and after the clerk showed us all the models we took the one that he said were the best and highest quality... funny he was angry we did not take added insurance, even if we purchased one of the better makes, imo he makes more on selling insurance than on the product itself... Same as the big powerbar and $200.00 hdmi that i did not get with the tv but purchased elsewhere on sale for 50% off.

I searched for the link about the $400.00 average but can't find it, it was a newspaper article in the begining of november. Are you saying that no part on the tv is less than $400. i'm shure that a lot of repairs are under that... and some must be higher.
For a `60 inch plasma i would recomend taking insurance... but we are taking a $800 tv here not a $8000 one. But If i'm buying a kia i might not have enough left over for extras like added insurance, but if i get a porsche whats a few thousand more...

In my case it was either a cheap plasma with 3 years added insurance or a good one with none... should a good tv not last longer than one half it's price????

QUOTE
`I don't like the "everything is disposable" mentality. I think there's a lot wrong with it and the people who believe it. Yes, there's a point where it's just not worth spending anything to repair it but what do you do with all of the dead TVs?`

I think it,s more technology that drive this mentality, and the companies that push the product... Why is it when i go and buy a ink cartridges for a printer there is always a printer for sale including both cartridges for less than replacing the cartriges in my year old printer? What will we do with all the printers? I'm shure this situation put a lot of printer repairmen out of buisness and it is not very ecologicly sound.

I don't beleive in disposable mentality if thats what you are implying, however i do beleive in spending my hard earned money in a responsible fashion and spending money on a repair that will get a few years more out of a item that would have cost a little more to replace and last ten years is just not good managment.

JimN
11-24-2007, 12:52 AM
I just saw the 5 plasma shootout and can tell you right now that they never went into the service mode on the Pioneer, which is where the White Balance is and if they expect any set to show "its true colors' with minimal setup, they're not doing their job. Most brands have a "technician mode" and this is where the real tweaks can be made. Also, the Pioneer PDP-433CMX is a commercial unit, which doesn't come with a video input card, but is shipped here as a computer monitor. There are several video cards available for it, directly from Pioneer and from Key Digital and both brands have inputs that include composite, S-Video, Component and HDMI. It even has a timer for maintenance functions like white balance, when used as a commercial display for digital signage. If the text is stationary (extreme situations), burn-in is still a possibility if it's on for long periods, regardless of what is now told to customers by retailers. This would only be an issue in a residential case where the person drinks themself into a coma on a regular basis.

zxmarc
11-24-2007, 12:56 AM
When did plasma correct the burn-in problem?? From what I read on the forums its still the biggest problem. As far as light output what is higher that LCD?? I read most theater magazines and I have not read the advances that you speak of with plasma. Looked into it but unless its for a dedicated home theater I found the down side was too much for my tastes.

here info on burn-in ( not a real problem at all it seems)

Burn-in: You may have heard that plasma has a couple of drawbacks. One such downside is burn-in, which occurs when an image--such as a stock ticker, a network logo, or letterbox bars--gets etched permanently onto the screen because it sits in one place too long. In our experience, the danger of burn-in has been greatly exaggerated, and people with normal viewing habits have nothing to worry about. The potential for burn-in is greatest during the first 100 or so hours of use, during which time you should keep contrast low (less than 50 percent) and avoid showing static images or letterbox bars on the screen for hours at a time. After this initial phase, plasma should be as durable as any television technology. Many models also have burn-in-reduction features, such as screensavers and pixel orbiting, or settings to treat burn-in once it occurs, such as causing the screen to go all white.

this is taken from here
http://www.cnet.com/4520-7874_1-5108443-2.html#plasmavslcd?tag=ms

they also talk about life span, another false downside. And compare plasma to LCD's

JimN
11-24-2007, 01:09 AM
zxmarc- not all extended warranties are actual insurance. Some, like the ones that are sold by the larger chains are actually like a big slush fund, with seed money deposited by them, to satisfy the regulations. They determine a retail price and after a certain point, they will be taking in a lot more than they pay for all of the services provided for, by the fund. This type tends to cost the consumer less than the warranties sold by outside companies. They usually include all in-home service, which can be an issue after the factory warranty is over.

Ultimately, it's up to the buyer, as to whether they want to pay for it. I've had to deal with PO'd customers who were told that their 1-2 year old plasma TV was going to need $1500 worth of service and it's not a part of my life that needs repeating.

I try not to sell $800 plasma sets and have the customer buy it if that's all they need. I have no problem installing it for them, though and I'll do everything else that's needed for the system. I can't make any money on them and if there's a service situation during the warranty period, I'll end up losing money because they don't pay anyone to remove it from the mount, drive to the service shop, pick it up and re-install it. The customer won't want to pay for that, either. That's one of the reasons FireDog charges a minimum of $165 to install a 37" set, plus parts. With a wall mount, it's usually about $300 plus tax.

To get back to the $400 average service bill- I haven't seen bills that low for servicing plasma and LCD displays. I don't know where they got those prices, unless it's what Panasonic pays to service them, which is very different from the retail charge. Being inundated with warranty service jobs is a good way to lose money unless it's a regional repair center for the manufacturer- they don't pay a shop their normal rate for labor and there's no way to make anything on the parts.

tex
11-24-2007, 11:29 AM
I've never seen the rainbow effect on out DLP. The wife has been working with them forever and still hasn't been able to see it. She says you she get the new LED if you can. She also says that if you can get a killer deal on a non-LED one you should take it. Don't let the bulb scare you off. We have never replaced ours and we watch a lot of TV!

Andyg
11-24-2007, 11:59 AM
I've never seen the rainbow effect on out DLP. The wife has been working with them forever and still hasn't been able to see it. She says you she get the new LED if you can. She also says that if you can get a killer deal on a non-LED one you should take it. Don't let the bulb scare you off. We have never replaced ours and we watch a lot of TV!

I wonder if DLP bulb manufacturers will start making replacement LED bulbs for those of us that have the old fashion style bulb. That is if you can even replace them with an LED. I wish my two TVs had hour meters on them as I have replaced the bulb in one tv twice in about 28 months.

tex
11-24-2007, 02:00 PM
From what I understand, you cannot retrofit the led to the older bulb type. If you have replaced your bulb that often, I would complain to who you bought your TV from. I hear a lot of the places are selling bulbs at discounted rates.

Footin
06-28-2008, 06:23 PM
Finally pulled trigger on a new tv, we bought a 46" Samsung LCD 1080.

Very happy with it so far. At 1,400 it was worth it to upgrade from 720 to 1080.

TMCNo1
06-28-2008, 07:47 PM
I tried to buy a Plazma TV one time with my blood donor card!

Ric
06-30-2008, 02:28 PM
well footin, my 10 year old sony finally died. It "popped" about a month and a half ago according to my wife and we honestly have not missed it much. It was a 35" sony trinitron and I doubt it's worth repair. The thing is heavy as hell and I don't really want to ponder moving it either!

Where did you get the deal on the samsung? Hell I think I paid nearly 2k for the sony way back when...

Footin
06-30-2008, 06:33 PM
I got it at HHGreg, it replaced my 32 Sony Trinitron.

HHGreg will deal on price, espically when you pull hunderds out of your pocket.

TX.X-30 fan
06-30-2008, 06:46 PM
Mitsubishi lcd's look amazing but are a little more pricy. 46" 2,500 52 3,400 There is a reason they cost more.

TX.X-30 fan
06-30-2008, 06:49 PM
well footin, my 10 year old sony finally died. It "popped" about a month and a half ago according to my wife and we honestly have not missed it much. It was a 35" sony trinitron and I doubt it's worth repair. The thing is heavy as hell and I don't really want to ponder moving it either!

Where did you get the deal on the samsung? Hell I think I paid nearly 2k for the sony way back when...




Did the remote look like this?? 8p


37098

CBergerson
06-30-2008, 07:26 PM
Mitsubishi lcd's look amazing but are a little more pricy. 46" 2,500 52 3,400 There is a reason they cost more.

You can't go wrong with Mitsubishi. My last two have been the 52 inch DLP and a 57 inch DLP with 1080p. The picture is amazing and I have never had any problems at all.

TX.X-30 fan
06-30-2008, 07:38 PM
You can't go wrong with Mitsubishi. My last two have been the 52 inch DLP and a 57 inch DLP with 1080p. The picture is amazing and I have never had any problems at all.




37104 37104


I think we just agreed. :D