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View Full Version : Universal Health Care -- A bad idea


shepherd
10-08-2007, 03:13 PM
I may be irresponsible posting this. I don't believe most of the stuff circulating around via emails and on the web. But I was wondering if our Canadian brothers can corroborate any of it. Is this BS?

The following email was forwarded to me:

A email buddy sent this to me. She got it from a friend of hers who has this buddy in Canada and his thoughts about their health care plan up there. I thought it was a good read about the Canadian health care plan. My thoughts are if you get the government involved with fixing things we could be in for some rough times.

I am forwarding this email I received from a buddy in Canada. Please take the time to read it so you can do whatever you wish....research, verify, etc., but please read it

I saw on the news up here in Canada where Hillary Clinton introduced her new health care plan. Something similar to what we have in Canada. I also heard that Michael Moore was raving about the health care up here in Canada in his latest movie. As your friend and someone who lives with the Canada health care plan I thought I would give you some facts about this great medical plan that we have in Canada.

First of all:

1) The health care plan in Canada is not free. We pay a premium every month of $96. for Shirley and I to be covered. Sounds great eh. What they don't tell you is how much we pay in taxes to keep the health care system afloat. I am personally in the 55% tax bracket. Yes 55% of my earnings go to taxes. A large portion of that and I am not sure of the exact amount goes directly to health care our #1 expense.

2) I would not classify what we have as health care plan, it is more like a health diagnosis system. You can get into to see a doctor quick enough so he can tell you "yes indeed you are sick or you need an operation" but now the challenge becomes getting treated or operated on. We have waiting lists out the ying yang some as much as 2 years down the road.

3) Rather than fix what is wrong with you the usual tactic in Canada is to prescribe drugs. Have a pain here is a drug to take- not what is causing the pain and why. No time for checking you out because it is more important to move as many patients thru as possible each hour for Government re-imbursement

4) Many Canadians do not have a family Doctor.

5) Don't require emergency treatment as you may wait for hours in the emergency room waiting for treatment.

6) Shirley's dad cut his hand on a power saw a few weeks back and it required that his hand be put in a splint - to our surprise we had to pay $125. for a splint because it is not covered under health care plus we have to pay $60. for each visit for him to check it out each week.

7) Shirley's cousin was diagnosed with a heart blockage. Put on a waiting list . Died before he could get treatment.

8) Government allots so many operations per year. When that is done no more operations, unless you go to your local newspaper and plead your case and embarrass the government then money suddenly appears.

9)The Government takes great pride in telling us how much more they are increasing the funding for health care but waiting lists never get shorter. Government just keeps throwing money at the problem but it never goes away. But they are good at finding new ways to tax us, but they don't call it a tax anymore it is now a user fee.

10) A friend needs an operation for a blockage in her leg but because she is a smoker they will not do it. Despite paying into the health care system all these years. My friend is 65 years old. Now there is talk that maybe we should not treat fat and obese people either because they are a drain on the health care system. Let me see now, what we want in Canada is a health care system for healthy people only That should reduce our health care costs.

11) Forget getting a second opinion, what you see is what you get.

12) I can spend what money I have left after taxes on booze, cigarettes, junk food and anything else that could kill me but I am not allowed by law to spend my money on getting an operation I need because that would be jumping the queue. I must wait my turn except if I am a hockey player or athlete then I can get looked at right away. Go figger. Where else in the world can you spend money to kill yourself but not allowed to spend money to get healthy.

13) Oh did I mention that immigrants are covered automatically at tax payer expense having never contributed a dollar to the system and pay no premiums.

14) Oh yeh we now give free needles to drug users to try and keep them healthy. Wouldn't want a sickly druggie breaking into your house and stealing your things. But people with diabetes who pay into the health care system have to pay for their needles because it is not covered but the health care system.

I send this out not looking for sympathy but as the election looms in the states you will be hearing more and more about universal health care down there and the advocates will be pointing to Canada. I just want to make sure that you hear the truth about health care up here and have some food for thought and informed questions to ask when broached with this subject.

Step wisely and don't make the same mistakes we have.

Monte
10-08-2007, 03:23 PM
Shep.. I have to think some of that is true.. Health insurance is a "fun" thing without gov't involvement.. If uncle sam gets involved... let's just say F.U.B.A.R


BTW don't WE wind up insuring folks who have never paid into the system?

André
10-08-2007, 05:16 PM
I may be irresponsible posting this. I don't believe most of the stuff circulating around via emails and on the web. But I was wondering if our Canadian brothers can corroborate any of it. Is this BS?

The following email was forwarded to me:

A email buddy sent this to me. She got it from a friend of hers who has this buddy in Canada and his thoughts about their health care plan up there. I thought it was a good read about the Canadian health care plan. My thoughts are if you get the government involved with fixing things we could be in for some rough times.

I am forwarding this email I received from a buddy in Canada. Please take the time to read it so you can do whatever you wish....research, verify, etc., but please read it

I saw on the news up here in Canada where Hillary Clinton introduced her new health care plan. Something similar to what we have in Canada. I also heard that Michael Moore was raving about the health care up here in Canada in his latest movie. As your friend and someone who lives with the Canada health care plan I thought I would give you some facts about this great medical plan that we have in Canada.

First of all:

1) The health care plan in Canada is not free. We pay a premium every month of $96. for Shirley and I to be covered. Sounds great eh. What they don't tell you is how much we pay in taxes to keep the health care system afloat. I am personally in the 55% tax bracket. Yes 55% of my earnings go to taxes. A large portion of that and I am not sure of the exact amount goes directly to health care our #1 expense.

2) I would not classify what we have as health care plan, it is more like a health diagnosis system. You can get into to see a doctor quick enough so he can tell you "yes indeed you are sick or you need an operation" but now the challenge becomes getting treated or operated on. We have waiting lists out the ying yang some as much as 2 years down the road.

3) Rather than fix what is wrong with you the usual tactic in Canada is to prescribe drugs. Have a pain here is a drug to take- not what is causing the pain and why. No time for checking you out because it is more important to move as many patients thru as possible each hour for Government re-imbursement

4) Many Canadians do not have a family Doctor.

5) Don't require emergency treatment as you may wait for hours in the emergency room waiting for treatment.

6) Shirley's dad cut his hand on a power saw a few weeks back and it required that his hand be put in a splint - to our surprise we had to pay $125. for a splint because it is not covered under health care plus we have to pay $60. for each visit for him to check it out each week.

7) Shirley's cousin was diagnosed with a heart blockage. Put on a waiting list . Died before he could get treatment.

8) Government allots so many operations per year. When that is done no more operations, unless you go to your local newspaper and plead your case and embarrass the government then money suddenly appears.

9)The Government takes great pride in telling us how much more they are increasing the funding for health care but waiting lists never get shorter. Government just keeps throwing money at the problem but it never goes away. But they are good at finding new ways to tax us, but they don't call it a tax anymore it is now a user fee.

10) A friend needs an operation for a blockage in her leg but because she is a smoker they will not do it. Despite paying into the health care system all these years. My friend is 65 years old. Now there is talk that maybe we should not treat fat and obese people either because they are a drain on the health care system. Let me see now, what we want in Canada is a health care system for healthy people only That should reduce our health care costs.

11) Forget getting a second opinion, what you see is what you get.

12) I can spend what money I have left after taxes on booze, cigarettes, junk food and anything else that could kill me but I am not allowed by law to spend my money on getting an operation I need because that would be jumping the queue. I must wait my turn except if I am a hockey player or athlete then I can get looked at right away. Go figger. Where else in the world can you spend money to kill yourself but not allowed to spend money to get healthy.

13) Oh did I mention that immigrants are covered automatically at tax payer expense having never contributed a dollar to the system and pay no premiums.

14) Oh yeh we now give free needles to drug users to try and keep them healthy. Wouldn't want a sickly druggie breaking into your house and stealing your things. But people with diabetes who pay into the health care system have to pay for their needles because it is not covered but the health care system.

I send this out not looking for sympathy but as the election looms in the states you will be hearing more and more about universal health care down there and the advocates will be pointing to Canada. I just want to make sure that you hear the truth about health care up here and have some food for thought and informed questions to ask when broached with this subject.

Step wisely and don't make the same mistakes we have.



#1 ;Not true in Québec.No premium other then your taxes.
#2;Waiting list are a problems for some surgery but not all of them.Populations is getting older and our best surgeons are all going to the US...
#3; Not true.Doctors here are as professionnals as anywhere in the US and practice the same way.
#4 ; True.But a lot of others options for everyday health problems...
#5 ; Peoples get treated depending on the emergengy they have.Don't expect a broken finger to be attend before the guy with a heart attack.
#6 ;Not true in Québec
#7 ;Not true in Québec
#8 ;They do have a certain amount of operating room available after that not sure how it works but again nobody will let you die.
#9 ; Same political bull**** as everywhere.No user fees here.
#10 ;Not true in Québec.
#11;Not true in Québec.
#12 ; True! But slowly changing.
#13 ;Yep!
#14 ;Junkies get needles from shelters and place like that not from the governement here.

My dad had surgery for an anevrism 10 days ago.The surgery was suppose to last about 4 hrs and it lasted almost 8.My father's lungs had problems with that long under the respirator so he had to keep the tubes that feeds air to his lungs and he was heavily sedated and is in intensives cares since then.
About 30 to 40 peoples are in intensive cares unit where he is.EACH ONE has his|her personnal nurse 24\7
He had to wait about 2 months for a surgery slot.
We French Canadian peoples are quick to criticize our systems but in my recent experience with my father surgery,I can say that our system is not perfect but not that bad either.
And according to Michael Moore,seems that the US system is not perfect either.

Bruce
10-08-2007, 06:43 PM
I was enjoying what seemed to be very objective responses.
Then you had to go and use Michael Moore as a reference. BLEW IT!

TX.X-30 fan
10-08-2007, 07:46 PM
#1 ;And according to Michael Moore, seems that the US system is not perfect either.




Thanks for taking the time to share your 1st hand experiences and knowledge of socialized medicine Canadian style. :)

Oh' and as far Michael Moore is concerned, he is an IDIOT and ya'll can have him back. :D

We will take shania Twain though. ;)





28273

shepherd
10-08-2007, 08:17 PM
#1 ;Not true in Québec.No premium other then your taxes.
#2;Waiting list are a problems for some surgery but not all of them.Populations is getting older and our best surgeons are all going to the US...
#3; Not true.Doctors here are as professionnals as anywhere in the US and practice the same way.
#4 ; True.But a lot of others options for everyday health problems...
#5 ; Peoples get treated depending on the emergengy they have.Don't expect a broken finger to be attend before the guy with a heart attack.
#6 ;Not true in Québec
#7 ;Not true in Québec
#8 ;They do have a certain amount of operating room available after that not sure how it works but again nobody will let you die.
#9 ; Same political bull**** as everywhere.No user fees here.
#10 ;Not true in Québec.
#11;Not true in Québec.
#12 ; True! But slowly changing.
#13 ;Yep!
#14 ;Junkies get needles from shelters and place like that not from the governement here.

My dad had surgery for an anevrism 10 days ago.The surgery was suppose to last about 4 hrs and it lasted almost 8.My father's lungs had problems with that long under the respirator so he had to keep the tubes that feeds air to his lungs and he was heavily sedated and is in intensives cares since then.
About 30 to 40 peoples are in intensive cares unit where he is.EACH ONE has his|her personnal nurse 24\7
He had to wait about 2 months for a surgery slot.
We French Canadian peoples are quick to criticize our systems but in my recent experience with my father surgery,I can say that our system is not perfect but not that bad either.
And according to Michael Moore,seems that the US system is not perfect either.

Thanks for your response Andre. Obviously, this email -- and a lot of other crap forwarded all over the internet via email -- is more political propaganda bs that feeds on people's gullibility rather than report the truth.

Wouldn't it be nice if people thought for themselves and checked the facts before jumping on the bandwagon and forwarding crap like this to everybody else? Whenever I get an email like that, that ends with "send this to all your friends!", I hit the "delete" button. :cool:

André
10-08-2007, 08:44 PM
Thanks for your response Andre. Obviously, this email -- and a lot of other crap forwarded all over the internet via email -- is more political propaganda bs that feeds on people's gullibility rather than report the truth.

Wouldn't it be nice if people thought for themselves and checked the facts before jumping on the bandwagon and forwarding crap like this to everybody else? Whenever I get an email like that, that ends with "send this to all your friends!", I hit the "delete" button. :cool:
You could have different answers from peoples from other provinces as health care is provincial programs.
Sorry about the Michael Moore comment.This guy really seems to really tick you off...;)

Leroy
10-08-2007, 09:10 PM
Or posting on TeamTalk! :eek: :D


Thanks for your response Andre. Obviously, this email -- and a lot of other crap forwarded all over the internet via email -- is more political propaganda bs that feeds on people's gullibility rather than report the truth.

Wouldn't it be nice if people thought for themselves and checked the facts before jumping on the bandwagon and forwarding crap like this to everybody else? Whenever I get an email like that, that ends with "send this to all your friends!", I hit the "delete" button. :cool:

shepherd
10-08-2007, 10:42 PM
Or posting on TeamTalk! :eek: :D

Touche'!

See, I can speak French

(but see my disclaimer, very first sentence of this thread... yeah I know... no excuse :rolleyes: )

Plus, I posted it on here asking people if they could verify it. I didn't email it to anybody or just posted it here saying "See there? :eek: Don't vote for Hillary!"

Leroy
10-08-2007, 10:55 PM
:D We loved the health care system when we lived in Belgium even though we were not included in the free system. Must be getting near the end of the season!

TX.X-30 fan
10-14-2007, 06:35 PM
Where did Hillary 08 go????? I personally thought it was a civil discourse.:confused: Guess there are some closet Hillaryites in high places.

What the heck, Ive had some great times in my life. Have to feel for the little ones though.

wade95
10-15-2007, 08:21 AM
Socialized medicine=Socialism!!!

Do not vote for Billary. The gov't pokes their noses in our business to much as it is!

tex
10-15-2007, 09:27 AM
Come to Texas and I'll take care of your health.

bigmac
10-15-2007, 09:44 AM
Come to Texas and I'll take care of your health.Silicone poisoning is not that big a health care issue...

JDK
10-15-2007, 12:08 PM
Another Canadian opinion - from Saskatchewan
1) Not true
2) There are some waiting lists, and this is an area in need of improvement in some cases. Then again, you hear of lots of cases where people are exceptionally pleased with the treatment they receive.
3) Not true
4) Have they tried to get one???
5) Depends on the emergency. I'd like to see the stats relating to how many people die in a Canadian emergency room vs. a US emergency room due to slow treatment. Andre put it well with the broken finger example.
6) Too bad. Did he have to pay to see the doctor?
7) Sorry, but how long did this fellow have to wait?
8) Not true
9) Tell me that private health care insurance premiums haven't increased by the same amount ..... or more in this same time frame.
10) Not true here if the facts are as stated.
11) Absolutely not true.
12) Not true. There are clinics that provide service for $$$. Usually these clinics are very specialized and very good at what they do.....this is why they have patients from around the world (eyes, hernias and a few others come to mind)
13) Yeah, I guess this is why it's called universal health care.
14) Not true here, but there are many US cities that this same thing happens.

Shepherd pretty much nailed it with his comment about people needing to find out facts.

bigmac
10-15-2007, 12:21 PM
My only experience with the Canadian health care system is from doctors I know that have emmigrated to the US, and from patients that come across the border to these northern tier states to get their health care, or at least timely diagnostic workups. That (admittedly rather skewed) experience has left me with the very clear opinion that that particular health care system would NEVER be acceptable to the people of the US. Granted, we need to keep looking, but I'm pretty confident we can stop looking northward.

Muttley
10-15-2007, 01:11 PM
Personally I like thet fact that when my daughter broke her leg skateboarding it didn't cost me $10,000. When we had our kids, no bill for $3000, no problem getting beds. Yes, there maybe waits in emergency rooms, but only for non-life threatening injuries. When my son and I went down on my motorcycle, there were scrapes and bruises. We waited about an hour, but again, it didn't cost us anything except for the painkiller prescription. If that had been the US, we would have had a bill into the thousands.

True, the system isn't perfect. No system is perfect. Too many people take advantage which creates stupid blanket rules that ruin it for the majority. Regarding #14, although there are Needle Exchanges here in Vancouver that have government grants, that has nothing to do with health care.

I just read in People Magazine where there are Americans paying $400 a month in health insurance, and they're still not getting the coverage when they get sick. That's not Michael Moore talking.

After a friend of mine from Washington got a bill for $8000 after losing his pinky finger, I think I'll take our system over yours anyday. He didn't even get to keep his finger.

bigmac
10-15-2007, 01:37 PM
I just read in People Magazine where there are Americans paying $400 a month in health insurance, and they're still not getting the coverage when they get sick. That's not Michael Moore talking.

After a friend of mine from Washington got a bill for $8000 after losing his pinky finger, I think I'll take our system over yours anyday. He didn't even get to keep his finger.PLENTY of horrifying anecdotes from both sides of the border (although admittedly not from as important a journal as People Magazine:rolleyes:) .

Anecdotes prove nothing, mean nothing. I've got a TON of 'em, being this close to the Canadian border, but relating them only obscures the argument. So I'll refrain...even though this IS the internet.

JimN
10-15-2007, 02:56 PM
If someone has insurance here, they need to read the fine print. Ahead of time, preferably. What will and will not be paid is stated clearly. Not enough people read all of that and when it comes time to give it a workout, they think they got screwed. Deductible and co-payments are specified, too. If someone doesn't read their policy and expect everything to be paid, that's their problem.

$400/month isn't for a family. I know people who pay over $1000/month and still have a high deductible. Where you are has a direct bearing on how much the premiums are.

Muttley- ask him if he has insurance. If not, he shouldn't complain. If he lost his finger due to someone else's negligence, they pay and if he has no insurance, he has to go after them. If he did it on his own, he shouldn't expect someone else to cover it and if he is insured, he needs to read his policy. If someone goes in for treatment and says they don't have insurance, they usually don't pay the same amount as the bill to the insurance co.

Nobody should expect the US to provide us with free insurance. That would be ridiculous. First, nothing is free, especially medical care. Second, this isn't a Socialist country. Third, people need to read their policy to educate themselves about what it or isn't covered, and at what cost to the policyholder.

Personally, I think insurance companies would save a lot by helping out on preventive medicine, like stop smoking programs/patches, gum, etc and diet planning for people with certain conditions. If someone is truly obese, make it mandatory that they go to a health club and lose weight, monitored by someone at the club. No weight loss/attendance, no pay/increased deductible. Non-compliant so many times, they get dumped.

We just had a guy sentenced for his ninth DUI. What BS! He's being sentenced to 9 months and a $3500 fine. He'll do it again. He needs treatment, NOW! He needs mandatory compliance but he won't get it. Many diabetics are overweight/obese. For some, their diet and weight are directly responsible for this but are they made to change this? Urged, maybe. If they don't, their coverage should change, IMO.

Yeah, many people are busy but going for a workout beats the he!! out of having a big gripper in the recliner with a big bowl of chips and dip in their lap. The stats for how much time is spent, by Americans, watching TV are staggering.

Brent
10-15-2007, 07:00 PM
Leading cause of bankruptcy in the U.S. are Medical Bill's, you would be hard pressed to find someone going into bankruptcy from the Canadian Medical system.

My father Died in August from cancer & the system treated him with dignity, suppling him with palliative radiation as well home visits. He also had a Quadruple bypass surgery last December. In the States My step mother would be bankrupt & homeless now.

The Canadian System is plagued by mismanegement but on whole I'll take it over the American system.

JimN
10-15-2007, 08:31 PM
"In the States My step mother would be bankrupt & homeless now."

Not if she has a good insurance plan. They do exist and not everyone who has a castrophic illness goes broke. My mom had a cerebral aneurysm burst in Dec '97. They operated and had her hooked up to a ventilator until we decided to remove it. I don't remember hearing about anything other than the deductible being paid out of pocket. My dad had a stroke in Jan '01 and while they didn't operate, his care and stay in the nursing home was covered until he passed. Same thing- only the deductible was paid. They haven't changed insurance plans that much since then- it's a matter of being aware of what is and isn't included. Also, protecting your assets in case of a long recovery.

Brent
10-15-2007, 08:59 PM
I found these stats

"Illness and medical bills caused half of the 1,458,000 personal bankruptcies in 2001, according to a study published by the journal Health Affairs.

The study estimates that medical bankruptcies affect about 2 million Americans annually -- counting debtors and their dependents, including about 700,000 children.

Surprisingly, most of those bankrupted by illness had health insurance. More than three-quarters were insured at the start of the bankrupting illness. However, 38 percent had lost coverage at least temporarily by the time they filed for bankruptcy.

Most of the medical bankruptcy filers were middle class; 56 percent owned a home and the same number had attended college. In many cases, illness forced breadwinners to take time off from work -- losing income and job-based health insurance precisely when families needed it most."


Here the link to the rest of the Article.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/bankruptcy_study.html

Maristar210
10-15-2007, 09:25 PM
This one is headed the same direction as the Hillary thread..... tick tock

JimN
10-15-2007, 09:31 PM
Here's another aspect- I wonder how many of the people who filed were already heavily in debt when they got sick.

Leroy
10-15-2007, 09:44 PM
We lived two years in Belgium and really liked the system there. As an ex-pat we did not qualify for everything for free, but the care was great, doctors were great, and prices were cheaper for everything and we were paying cash and submitting to our US insurance company.

I'll also say as a fully insured US citizen my US health care has been great, doctors great, I'm alive because of great doctors (if anyone wants to hear My Story).

It's the out of work, uninsured that are the problem and as a society that reaches a certain level of maturity we should take care of those less fortunate.

Everyone play nice on this thread it had a shaky start to begin with......

Leroy
10-15-2007, 09:46 PM
Steve you are getting pretty good at this!

This one is headed the same direction as the Hillary thread..... tick tock

JimN
10-15-2007, 10:09 PM
"It's the out of work, uninsured that are the problem and as a society that reaches a certain level of maturity we should take care of those less fortunate."

Part of the willingness of people taking care of those who are less fortunate has to do with, "Why are they less fortunate?" Is it because they truly can't function in society, have some disability that keeps them from being able, mentally or physically, do they not believe they should have to pay? Are they the type that will try to scam and operate outside of any system they encounter? Are they hooked on drugs/booze? Are they destitute and homeless? Are they here illegally? I think these are all valid topics when it comes to national health care. There are additional questions that will be considered by others, too.

Who pays for this, and how much? Is it a fixed fee for all? Is it based on income? Is there a difference by region, like where care is already more expensive? How do we charge the elderly, on fixed, minimal income, especially when they never thought they would live as long as they have?

I don't have much problem with taking care of those who can't take care of themselves, I have a problem with helping those who won't.

Leroy
10-15-2007, 10:35 PM
It really is about how mature our country is. A mature country instills values in people from an early age. We are still deficient ...but we should start moving in that direction.

A good guy that gets laid off and then sick should not end up destitute and layoffs are happening to everyone now.

Of course, there will always be some people take advantage of the system.

shepherd
10-15-2007, 10:36 PM
Everyone play nice on this thread it had a shaky start to begin with......

You got that right! :o

Leroy
10-15-2007, 10:50 PM
I hope I can make it to CSM and meet ya!

You got that right! :o

TX.X-30 fan
10-16-2007, 12:37 AM
It really is about how mature our country is. A mature country instills values in people from an early age. We are still deficient ...but we should start moving in that direction.

A good guy that gets laid off and then sick should not end up destitute and layoffs are happening to everyone now.

Of course, there will always be some people take advantage of the system.



How in the world could we install values at an early age in this country now.:confused: How about allowing those scarryyyyyy 10 commandments back in the public arena. We are not deficient in this society except for the fact that we have allowed socialists and atheists to control our public discourse.

This is not very hard to track, start when the ACLU started removing GOD from this country and you will see the decline of the family, morality and a general malaise that has gripped our once proud nation.

A mature country instills values? Where exactly in Europe do we look to find values? that is a ridiculous statement in my oppinion.

I do realize us Americans are a stupid lot of folks, but this argument does not pass the smell test IMHO.

Brent
10-16-2007, 06:37 AM
Instead of labeling people & Ideas , why don't you judge each person & Idea on it's own merit, Maybe ask yourself WWJD? I hope for your sake that a major illness does not leave you in the hands of your insurance company.

I have no problem with people in the medical field making a profit while helping people but the profits appear to have taken a seat in front of the patients well being . The Insurance companies & hospitals are making huge profits with little consideration for ethics or common sense.


Socialism in it's ideal form is everyone getting together to make sure people don't fall through the cracks, the trick is to have enough checks & balances to make sure it does not fail or get misused.

Moderator

If you delete a post could you inform the poster about what made it unworthy ,so the can adjust & learn what works.:)

Ric
10-16-2007, 11:04 AM
Where did Hillary 08 go????? I personally thought it was a civil discourse.:confused: Guess there are some closet Hillaryites in high places.

What the heck, Ive had some great times in my life. Have to feel for the little ones though. hope eastie truly copied my sentiments prior to the thread being deleted8p

Ric
10-16-2007, 11:06 AM
Socialism in it's ideal form is everyone getting together to make sure people don't fall through the cracks, the trick is to have enough checks & balances to make sure it does not fail or get misused.




In team production, shirking is rational behavior

Bruce
10-16-2007, 11:09 AM
We are a democracy and we will stay a democracy. If socialism works for you so be it. You aren't going to sell it to this citizen.

I SEE A LONG LINE OF FOLKS WAITING TO GET INTO THE USA. I DON'T SEE A LINE TO GET OUT1

bigmac
10-16-2007, 11:51 AM
Democracy and socialism aren't mutually exclusive. Many representatives in government today (about 1/2 of them) are pretty certain that we as a country are becoming increasingly socialistic. We can have universal health care - it just depends on how we, as a democratic system of government, decide to spend our money, and where we decide to get it from.

Ric
10-16-2007, 12:27 PM
We are a democracy and we will stay a democracy. If socialism works for you so be it. You aren't going to sell it to this citizen.

I SEE A LONG LINE OF FOLKS WAITING TO GET INTO THE USA. I DON'T SEE A LINE TO GET OUT1

I like your courage in your convictions here bruce, but for clarity, we are not a democracy, but rather a representative republic.

I know you knew that, but I thought I'd say for the sake of the canadians:o

Bruce
10-16-2007, 12:45 PM
I like your courage in your convictions here bruce, but for clarity, we are not a democracy, but rather a representative republic.

I know you knew that, but I thought I'd say for the sake of the canadians:o

Point well taken! Thank you. The Marine Corps did teach me to aim before I shot. Just forgot for a sec.

Bruce
10-16-2007, 12:51 PM
Democracy and socialism aren't mutually exclusive. Many representatives in government today (about 1/2 of them) are pretty certain that we as a country are becoming increasingly socialistic. We can have universal health care - it just depends on how we, as a democratic system of government, decide to spend our money, and where we decide to get it from.

Yes about 1/2 in Washington are liberals. Are socialism and liberalism "mutually exclusive." Just asking.

Muttley
10-16-2007, 01:42 PM
PLENTY of horrifying anecdotes from both sides of the border (although admittedly not from as important a journal as People Magazine:rolleyes:) .

Anecdotes prove nothing, mean nothing. I've got a TON of 'em, being this close to the Canadian border, but relating them only obscures the argument. So I'll refrain...even though this IS the internet.

I take it you not in favour of the Canadian system. That's fine. You don't like anecdotes. That's fine to. So what should use to argue my point if I can't relate by personal experience?

Personally I think that since this is a boating forum, our chances of solving the health care issue is pretty minimal. It seemed hardly worth the time and effort to put forth a six page report citing references and websites, so I used personal experience which most Americans don't have.

Rather than just denouncing the "People Magazine" reference, perhaps you could shed a little light on how your system (or lack thereof) Is better?

shepherd
10-16-2007, 01:57 PM
Rather than just denouncing the "People Magazine" reference, perhaps you could shed a little light on how your system (or lack thereof) Is better?

Here Mac, let me handle this: We have these guys!

bigmac
10-16-2007, 02:11 PM
I take it you not in favour of the Canadian system. That's fine. You don't like anecdotes. That's fine to. So what should use to argue my point if I can't relate by personal experience?

Personally I think that since this is a boating forum, our chances of solving the health care issue is pretty minimal. It seemed hardly worth the time and effort to put forth a six page report citing references and websites, so I used personal experience which most Americans don't have.

Rather than just denouncing the "People Magazine" reference, perhaps you could shed a little light on how your system (or lack thereof) Is better? By all means, relate your anecdotal experience. Implying that it's proof of system-wide superiority just won't fly, however. It's just YOUR experience. I can relate anecdotes about how GOOD the US system is, and just as many about how bad it is. They prove nothing.

What I said was that the US system needs work - I didn't say it was better than Canada's. It is, however, based on anecdotes I've personally heard from Canadian doctors and patients, clear to me that the Canadian system is not a model that will work in the US. I'm not saying that the US system is better, I'm saying that the Canadian system has weaknesses that make unlikely to be workable in the US. And I say that based on ANECDOTES, not formal studies or surveys either in People Magazine or in the National Enquirer. So therefore, you can take my position as I take yours...just one man's opinion. And you know what they say about opinions....

shepherd
10-16-2007, 02:19 PM
And these guys!

bigmac
10-16-2007, 02:28 PM
And these guys!
Those television shows only prove that our doctors are better than their doctors....anyway you forgot...

http://timstvshowcase.com/welby0.jpg

shepherd
10-16-2007, 03:06 PM
Those television shows only prove that our doctors are better than their doctors...


So are our nurses!

TX.X-30 fan
10-16-2007, 08:25 PM
The Canadian system will fail over time, not tomorrow but there will be less and less incentive for doctors, nurses, hospitals to remain where there in no profit incentive. There will be fewer new drugs, fewer new therapies, fewer new cures. Its already starting to happen in Canada and the UK with high risk pregnancies. there is not the training or staff for the woman who have these conditions in your countries. To counter that the US has the best neo-natal care in the world? Why in that?

My youngest son was born through an emergency c-section at 41/2 lbs and then dropped to mid-3's. he spent 3 weeks in intensive care got a lung infection and is now a thriving pain in the rump.:D

The point of this was not about my son, this was all accomplished in a small hospital in a bedroom community in Houston. Never life-flighted to Texas children's because this hospital had what they needed. And what they had was state of the art equipment, nurses and doctors.

Canada may have similar health care at this point but that is not going to last. Nothing in life is free, and who ever thought it should be anyway.

For those who think that government does such a good job at everything, let say we implement national boat care and its FREE. Who here is going to take their "baby" Down and wait in line for 6hrs to drop their boat off with this government agency and trust that it will be taken care of. :rolleyes:

Answer: NOT ONE OF US WOULD!!!! Yet under her plan it would be mandatory!!

Have to just ask yourself, self am I willing to trust my health care to Hiiary Clinton. I would love to hear an argument from someone that would. :confused:

jpattigr
10-17-2007, 12:56 AM
Interesting subject as a group of us just had this discussion,

1. I think the e-mail that started this is mostly false, for one thing the max Tax Bracket here in Alberta is 39.5% on High Income (29% Federal and a flat 10.5% Provincial) not 55% anywhere in Canada
2. Most readers of TT most likely have excellent health insurance, if you can afford the boat I would hope the insurance. If you have a great plan in the USA, you will have equal and maybe quicker health care then most Canadians. 40 million USA folk have no insurance and have poor health care, 0 Canadians have no insurance. Most Canadians are proud of this.
3. Canadians have longer average lives then Americans and most global studies give the Canadian Health care system the edge as the main reason.
4. I have read on this Forum about folks selling their boats to pay health bills, remember the fund rising for Terry Winter's wife?? She had little insurance and it cost them huge. Did she receive the best possible care? In Canada she would have have the same access to doctors as anyone else and Canada is a world leadr in cancer care. My mother has been a Cancer winner for over 17 years and has surgery (laser) every three months to control it, no cost for my 83 year old mom ever.
5. That same Mom fell and broke her Hip this past Monday and will be out of the hospital next week and a Rehab center, excellent care and all covered.
6. My Sister lived in Dallas for 20 years as her husband was a Doctor, he had a massive heart attack 10 years ago and then all the insurance companies found ways to drop his coverage in Texas, they had to move back to Canada for health care as the US system almost bankrupted them. Ironic isn't it.

There is no perfect system and if your knee is a little sore, you will wait, if you have a heart attack, cancer, a stroke etc. there is no other country I would want to be in.

My daughter (11 years old then) 2 years ago, was found to have a large tumor in her abdominal area and it was thought to be cancer. (WORST day of my life!!) It was confirmed on Wednesday evening at about 7pm, she was out of Surgery before lunch on Thursday and the operation was done by a team specialists that specialize in that area of research.

This summer my daughter pulled 3 balls in the Slalom course and did a 360 on top of the wake well wakesurfing!!

It is not a bad system overall and we still own our boat,:D

jpattigr
10-17-2007, 01:06 AM
TX

On Neo Natal care the USA is very good but it is interesting the USA ranked 40th out of 217 countries in 2006 on the Infant Mortality rate.
USA 6.37 deaths per 1000 babies born
Canada 4.63 By the way

Also, you mentioned about going bankrupt, no country in the world has a higher cost per patient then the USA, health care per person in USA is more then double the second place country. That may be a system that no one will be able to afford??

Brent
10-17-2007, 08:20 AM
J pat

In Quebec the highest tax rate is 55% (no oil here),tax's vary from province to province

As the Baby boomer start to really retire both The U.S. & Canadian systems are going to have to make big changes to deal with the onslaught .I hope we have user fee's up to $1000 a year here & the rest is covered by medicare . Pay Family doctors directly instead of having it go through the government! My problem is Insurance Companies making huge profits on everyone else's backs .

Ric
10-17-2007, 08:55 AM
TX

On Neo Natal care the USA is very good but it is interesting the USA ranked 40th out of 217 countries in 2006 on the Infant Mortality rate.
USA 6.37 deaths per 1000 babies born
Canada 4.63 By the way

Also, you mentioned about going bankrupt, no country in the world has a higher cost per patient then the USA, health care per person in USA is more then double the second place country. That may be a system that no one will be able to afford?? ya but how many things can you think of that the US would not be at or near the highest cost in the world?

jpattigr
10-17-2007, 09:53 AM
I checked by googling PQ tax rates and for 2007 the max combined for PQ is 48.2% and that is for income over $125,000. Still very high but not 55% any more!
Good news however the Throne speech yesterday introduced more tax cuts across the board!!:D

Jorski
10-17-2007, 01:42 PM
htthttp://cthealth.server101.com/the_case_for_universal_health_care_in_the_united_s tates.htmp://

The Case For Single Payer, Universal Health Care For The United States

Outline of Talk Given To The Association of State Green Parties, Moodus, Connecticut on June 4, 1999

By John R. Battista, M.D. and Justine McCabe, Ph.D.



Why doesn’t the United States have universal health care as a right of citizenship? The United States is the only industrialized nation that does not guarantee access to health care as a right of citizenship. 28 industrialized nations have single payer universal health care systems, while 1 (Germany) has a multipayer universal health care system like President Clinton proposed for the United States.


Myth One: The United States has the best health care system in the world.

Fact One: The United States ranks 23rd in infant mortality, down from 12th in 1960 and 21st in 1990

Fact Two: The United States ranks 20th in life expectancy for women down from 1st in 1945 and 13th in 1960


Fact Three: The United States ranks 21st in life expectancy for men down from 1st in 1945 and 17th in 1960.


Fact Four: The United States ranks between 50th and 100th in immunizations depending on the immunization. Overall US is 67th, right behind Botswana


Fact Five: Outcome studies on a variety of diseases, such as coronary artery disease, and renal failure show the United States to rank below Canada and a wide variety of industrialized nations.


Conclusion: The United States ranks poorly relative to other industrialized nations in health care despite having the best trained health care providers and the best medical infrastructure of any industrialized nation


Myth Two: Universal Health Care Would Be Too Expensive

Fact One: The United States spends at least 40% more per capita on health care than any other industrialized country with universal health care


Fact Two: Federal studies by the Congressional Budget Office and the General Accounting office show that single payer universal health care would save 100 to 200 Billion dollars per year despite covering all the uninsured and increasing health care benefits.


Fact Three: State studies by Massachusetts and Connecticut have shown that single payer universal health care would save 1 to 2 Billion dollars per year from the total medical expenses in those states despite covering all the uninsured and increasing health care benefits


Fact Four: The costs of health care in Canada as a % of GNP, which were identical to the United States when Canada changed to a single payer, universal health care system in 1971, have increased at a rate much lower than the United States, despite the US economy being much stronger than Canada’s.


Conclusion: Single payer universal health care costs would be lower than the current US system due to lower administrative costs. The United States spends 50 to 100% more on administration than single payer systems. By lowering these administrative costs the United States would have the ability to provide universal health care, without managed care, increase benefits and still save money


Myth Three: Universal Health Care Would Deprive Citizens of Needed Services

Fact One: Studies reveal that citizens in universal health care systems have more doctor visits and more hospital days than in the US


Fact Two: Around 30% of Americans have problem accessing health care due to payment problems or access to care, far more than any other industrialized country. About 17% of our population is without health insurance. About 75% of ill uninsured people have trouble accessing/paying for health care.


Fact Three: Comparisons of Difficulties Accessing Care Are Shown To Be Greater In The US Than Canada (see graph)


Fact Four: Access to health care is directly related to income and race in the United States. As a result the poor and minorities have poorer health than the wealthy and the whites.


Fact Five: There would be no lines under a universal health care system in the United States because we have about a 30% oversupply of medical equipment and surgeons, whereas demand would increase about 15%


Conclusion: The US denies access to health care based on the ability to pay. Under a universal health care system all would access care. There would be no lines as in other industrialized countries due to the oversupply in our providers and infrastructure, and the willingness/ability of the United States to spend more on health care than other industrialized nations.

Myth Four: Universal Health Care Would Result In Government Control And Intrusion Into Health Care Resulting In Loss Of Freedom Of Choice

Fact One: There would be free choice of health care providers under a single payer universal health care system, unlike our current managed care system in which people are forced to see providers on the insurer’s panel to obtain medical benefits


Fact Two: There would be no management of care under a single payer, universal health care system unlike the current managed care system which mandates insurer preapproval for services thus undercutting patient confidentiality and taking health care decisions away from the health care provider and consumer


Fact Three: Although health care providers fees would be set as they are currently in 90% of cases, providers would have a means of negotiating fees unlike the current managed care system in which they are set in corporate board rooms with profits, not patient care, in mind


Fact Four: Taxes, fees and benefits would be decided by the insurer which would be under the control of a diverse board representing consumers, providers, business and government. It would not be a government controlled system, although the government would have to approve the taxes. The system would be run by a public trust, not the government.


Conclusion: Single payer, universal health care administered by a state public health system would be much more democratic and much less intrusive than our current system. Consumers and providers would have a voice in determining benefits, rates and taxes. Problems with free choice, confidentiality and medical decision making would be resolved


Myth Five: Universal Health Care Is Socialized Medicine And Would Be Unacceptable To The Public

Fact One: Single payer universal health care is not socialized medicine. It is health care payment system, not a health care delivery system. Health care providers would be in fee for service practice, and would not be employees of the government, which would be socialized medicine. Single payer health care is not socialized medicine, any more than the public funding of education is socialized education, or the public funding of the defense industry is socialized defense.


Fact Two: Repeated national and state polls have shown that between 60 and 75% of Americans would like a universal health care system (see The Harris Poll #78, October 20, 2005)


Conclusion: Single payer, universal health care is not socialized medicine and would be preferred by the majority of the citizens of this country


Myth Six: The Problems With The US Health Care System Are Being Solved and Are Best Solved By Private Corporate Managed Care Medicine because they are the most efficient

Fact One: Private for profit corporation are the lease efficient deliverer of health care. They spend between 20 and 30% of premiums on administration and profits. The public sector is the most efficient. Medicare spends 3% on administration.


Fact Two: The same procedure in the same hospital the year after conversion from not-for profit to for-profit costs in between 20 to 35% more


Fact Three: Health care costs in the United States grew more in the United States under managed care in 1990 to 1996 than any other industrialized nation with single payer universal health care


Fact Four: The quality of health care in the US has deteriorated under managed care. Access problems have increased. The number of uninsured has dramatically increased (increase of 10 million to 43.4 million from 1989 to 1996, increase of 2.4% from 1989 to 1996- 16% in 1996 and increasing each year).


Fact Five: The level of satisfaction with the US health care system is the lowest of any industrialized nation.


Fact Six: 80% of citizens and 71% of doctors believe that managed care has caused quality of care to be compromised


Conclusion: For profit, managed care can not solve the US health care problems because health care is not a commodity that people shop for, and quality of care must always be compromised when the motivating factor for corporations is to save money through denial of care and decreasing provider costs. In addition managed care has introduced problems of patient confidentiality and disrupted the continuity of care through having limited provider networks.

Overall Answer to the questions Why doesn’t the US have single payer universal health care when single payer universal health care is the most efficient, most democratic and most equitable means to deliver health care? Why does the United States remain wedded to an inefficient, autocratic and immoral system that makes health care accessible to the wealthy and not the poor when a vast majority of citizens want it to be a right of citizenship?
Conclusion: Corporations are able to buy politicians through our campaign finance system and control the media to convince people that corporate health care is democratic, represents freedom, and is the most efficient system for delivering health care

Ric
10-17-2007, 01:52 PM
I checked by googling PQ tax rates and for 2007 the max combined for PQ is 48.2% and that is for income over $125,000. Still very high but not 55% any more!
Good news however the Throne speech yesterday introduced more tax cuts across the board!!:D maybe you gots some of dim suppy-siders up dare

Ric
10-17-2007, 01:56 PM
Conclusion: For profit, managed care can not solve the US health care problems because health care is not a commodity that people shop for, and quality of care must always be compromised when the motivating factor for corporations is to save money through denial of care and decreasing provider costs. In addition managed care has introduced problems of patient confidentiality and disrupted the continuity of care through having limited provider networks.

Overall Answer to the questions Why doesn’t the US have single payer universal health care when single payer universal health care is the most efficient, most democratic and most equitable means to deliver health care? Why does the United States remain wedded to an inefficient, autocratic and immoral system that makes health care accessible to the wealthy and not the poor when a vast majority of citizens want it to be a right of citizenship?
Conclusion: Corporations are able to buy politicians through our campaign finance system and control the media to convince people that corporate health care is democratic, represents freedom, and is the most efficient system for delivering health care

the "overall answer" is: :drumroll:

Goverments are inefficient by nature.

Bruce
10-17-2007, 03:35 PM
Having plowed thru the laborious stats presented by our Canadian neighbors I offer the following: Having a working knowledge of statistics (i.e. mean, mode, median, quartiles, standard deviation etc.) I submit that ALL INDIANS WALK SINGLE FILE. Proof-The one I saw did!
Get my drift!

bigmac
10-17-2007, 05:55 PM
OK...without actually cutting and pasting an entire article, here are some links that "prove" that the Canadian health care system is bad.....;)

(When I first googled "Canadian Health Care System waiting time", I got an unmanageable number of hits...:)

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4618

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa184.html

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa184.html

http://forums.intpcentral.com/archive/index.php/t-2298.html

http://forums.intpcentral.com/archive/index.php/t-2298.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/healthcare/

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hcs-sss/qual/acces/wait-attente/index_e.html

Anyway, you get the idea. Somehow, I get a :rolleyes: sort of feeling when I see a Canadian criticizing the US health care system by cutting an pasting an article from the Internet. Not that the US health care system doesn't need work -- it does. Canada just isn't the model we want to use IMHO.

TX.X-30 fan
10-17-2007, 05:56 PM
J pat

In Quebec the highest tax rate is 55% (no oil here),tax's vary from province to province

As the Baby boomer start to really retire both The U.S. & Canadian systems are going to have to make big changes to deal with the onslaught .I hope we have user fee's up to $1000 a year here & the rest is covered by medicare . Pay Family doctors directly instead of having it go through the government! My problem is Insurance Companies making huge profits on everyone else's backs .



Sure we have problems, so does everywhere. I like the Idea of paying the doctor for an office visit, then its over, no ins. no govt. Then for anything else we purchase on our own like the old days a major medical policy. It would act as catastrophic coverage. I have no intention of paying for peoples health care that abuse the system or are just to lazy to get covered.

We have basic differences in our countries. Our founding fathers wanted a very limited federal govt. This was to insure Americans would remain free from govt intervention and onerous laws or taxation. I would not want to live in a country that taxed a family makin125k what 48+ %. That's not only ridiculous its down right immoral. Think I'm cool with Jesus on that one.


As soon as socialist societies move toward more capitalistic policies they prosper, just the way it works.

Not to offend any Canadians, but America or for that matter the Kurds don't need any lessons on compassion.


Like I said we just believe people should be free to live their lives without the mommy state holding our hands.


Hey here is a novel idea how about the Canadians start paying their fair share to protect Norht America???

Hell then we would have more money for our horrid health care system. :D

Brent
10-17-2007, 07:46 PM
To tell the truth the only country we need to protect ourselves from is the U.S.A! We are your biggest oil supplier & we have more water & natural resources then you do ,I see an invasion in the near future . We have weapons of mass destruction , like beer & pizza.

The land of the free? The U.S. has more people per-capita in prison then anywhere else in the world & it keeps growing. If Money was invested into improving health care & other important social issues you would not need all those police , court houses & prisons.

BTW did you know that less then !% of Americans have more money then the bottom 99% combined? Maybe an adjustment in your tax system is due?
:D :D :D :D

Brent
10-17-2007, 07:58 PM
I forgot this

Québec (QC)
combined federal & provincial tax rates net of federal tax abatement
2007 Taxable Income Tax
Rate 2006 Taxable Income Tax
Rate
first $29,290 28.94% first $28,710 28.73%
over $29,290 up to $37,178 32.94% over $28,710 up to $36,378 32.73%
over $37,178 up to $58,595 38.37% over $36,378 up to $57,430 38.37%
over $58,595 up to $74,357 42.37% over $57,430 up to $72,756 42.37%
over $74,357 up to $120,887 45.71% over $72,756 up to $118,285 45.71%
over $120,887 48.22% over $118,285 48.22%

shepherd
10-17-2007, 08:09 PM
To tell the truth the only country we need to protect ourselves from is the U.S.A! We are your biggest oil supplier & we have more water & natural resources then you do ,I see an invasion in the near future . :D

Watch out guys! We're starting to get pissed off at you smug Canadians and your "superior" health care system!

(Oh, and your so-called "musicians")

TX.X-30 fan
10-17-2007, 08:23 PM
To tell the truth the only country we need to protect ourselves from is the U.S.A! We are your biggest oil supplier & we have more water & natural resources then you do ,I see an invasion in the near future . We have weapons of mass destruction , like beer & pizza.

The land of the free? The U.S. has more people per-capita in prison then anywhere else in the world & it keeps growing. If Money was invested into improving health care & other important social issues you would not need all those police , court houses & prisons.

BTW did you know that less then !% of Americans have more money then the bottom 99% combined? Maybe an adjustment in your tax system is due?



Wow got those little canadiani panties all in a wad there brent.

Keep this under your hat but I have heard from reliable sources the there in a huge increase of HIV in the canadiani moose population.

JUS SAYIN??? :D

Hey I have a great deal on some canadiani military:rolleyes: rifles' never fired and only dropped once. 8p

André
10-17-2007, 08:28 PM
Hey I have a great deal on some canadiani military:rolleyes: rifles' never fired and only dropped once. 8p
Won't get in your game but i find this one a bit offending for our troops in Kandahar.Lots of them got killed recently.Doing their best i guess...

TX.X-30 fan
10-17-2007, 08:52 PM
Won't get in your game but i find this one a bit offending for our troops in Kandahar.Lots of them got killed recently.Doing their best i guess...



No intention to offend you or any other reasonable Canadians, we are a proud people in this country, and I am sure Canadians are a proud people. There in no sane reason for people to come on this site and bash the system that gave us the boat we all enjoy.

I did not start this thread, but seems damned arrogant to me for a few Canadians to try to educate a 47 yr. old American citizen about what is all wrong about my country.

Andre I always enjoy your posts, sorry if I have offended you. No offence was ever meant towards your brave soldiers.


Do Canadians not benefit from the US ? I personally know we benift from Canada, as it should be. Lumber I have used for years has come from Canadian forests and is some of the best there is.

Have a good evening Andre, hey we still on for that house/wife/gf swap. :D

Brent
10-17-2007, 08:54 PM
I'm not pissed, but I am astounded by "Good Christians" closing their minds to options that could both save them $$ & help the less fortunate at the same time. What really got me going on this was all the labeling & stereo typing going on "Democrats" "Hillaryites" A little too smug for my tastes.

Judging by TX.Xs New avatar I'm thinkin he's a mite miffed.:rolleyes:

JimN
10-17-2007, 08:57 PM
"The land of the free? The U.S. has more people per-capita in prison then anywhere else in the world & it keeps growing"

That's a BS statement and you know it! Those people weren't just walking down the street and arrested, or had the troopers bust into their homes and drag them away, they broke laws. Sometimes, several laws and in many cases, it was far from the first time. What does Canada do with repeat offenders, drug dealers, rapists and murderers?

While we're talking about illegal, what would you do with 12 million illegal residents in Canada? Just by being there, your population would approach 50 million because of the addition of over 25% of your existing population. Or, in relative terms, what would happen if there were 1.25 million people in Canada who weren't supposed to be there but were using all kinds of services and because they don't make much money and weren't registered, weren't paying taxes? What impact would that have on housing, hospitals, police force workload, food supply and traffic?

JimN
10-17-2007, 09:06 PM
"We have weapons of mass destruction , like beer & pizza."

What about donuts? We like those, too.

"BTW did you know that less then !% of Americans have more money then the bottom 99% combined? Maybe an adjustment in your tax system is due?"

Did you know that over 1000 Microsoft employees became millionaires after they went big? There are probably 20 stocks that put the same number of people as the 1% you referred to in that bracket. Or, maybe that 1% works harder and knows what to do with their money. In case you didn't realize, the top 10% pay over 50% of the taxes here. The problem is that too many in the low brackets didn't finish high school and probably never will, which means that they will always be on the bottom level unless they A) get a large settlement, B) win the lottery, C) do something brilliant, in spite of their lack of education or D) work their butt off and save, instead of spending every waking moment hammered.

TX.X-30 fan
10-17-2007, 09:12 PM
I'm not pissed, but I am astounded by "Good Christians" closing their minds to options that could both save them $$ & help the less fortunate at the same time. What really got me going on this was all the labeling & stereo typing going on "Democrats" "Hillaryites" A little too smug for my tastes.

Judging by TX.Xs New avatar I'm thinkin he's a mite miffed.:rolleyes:



Never claimed to be a "good christian", simply stated Jesus would not agree with 55% taxation on his disciples?


Come clean brent, is it Bikini cut, or Thong.:confused: :confused:

Bikini



Or my favorite:


Thong. :D

PendO
10-17-2007, 10:07 PM
I wish there was some form of "universal" healthcare ... but there will always be people with more money wanting to jump ahead of the "regular" guy (or meth addict) ... I think universal healthcare would be about as acceptable to americans as every person driving the same auotomoble (based on family size) ... instead, we all buy different cars based largely on our income ... and if you cannot afford a car and/or car insurance ... you end up having to ride the bus ... as far as healthcare, it is simmilar in that you get what you can afford ... however, there is no "bus ride" for those who can almost afford it, rather, you are screwed unless you are completely indigent and then you "may" get it for free from the state... there needs to be better access to the middle class for health insurance, but the middle class needs to make financial sacrifices in order to afford insurance and not feel that they are "entitled" to it ... I have employees who actually would rather have their hourly pay increased and do away with their medical/dental insurance, however, we do not give them the option ... instead of people biching about how expensive medical insurance is, perhaps they should reduce their housing expenses (smaller house), reduce some of their bills (cable & cell phone), and avoid a new car payment ... the problem, for many, is that they feel they are entitled to all of this and "cheap" insurance ... still, I think all americans should have access to free care just as federal & state prisoners have access to free care, there is no reason that an inmate should have better access to care IMO.

JimN
10-17-2007, 10:40 PM
According to the percentages, you show too many overlaps.

A person grossing $118,285 nets about $20K more than someone who grosses $72,756. Why bother making that much more?

Do you have additional taxes, paid to each province or is everything paid to the Canadian government and doled out, based on need and population?

shepherd
10-17-2007, 10:42 PM
I may be irresponsible posting this.

Yep, I take full responsibility. :rolleyes:

OK, quit bashing the Canadians. They're good people... even that UMP character! :D

TX.X-30 fan
10-17-2007, 10:47 PM
I wish there was some form of "universal" healthcare ... but there will always be people with more money wanting to jump ahead of the "regular" guy (or meth addict) ... I think universal healthcare would be about as acceptable to americans as every person driving the same auotomoble (based on family size) ... instead, we all buy different cars based largely on our income ... and if you cannot afford a car and/or car insurance ... you end up having to ride the bus ... as far as healthcare, it is simmilar in that you get what you can afford ... however, there is no "bus ride" for those who can almost afford it, rather, you are screwed unless you are completely indigent and then you "may" get it for free from the state... there needs to be better access to the middle class for health insurance, but the middle class needs to make financial sacrifices in order to afford insurance and not feel that they are "entitled" to it ... I have employees who actually would rather have their hourly pay increased and do away with their medical/dental insurance, however, we do not give them the option ... instead of people biching about how expensive medical insurance is, perhaps they should reduce their housing expenses (smaller house), reduce some of their bills (cable & cell phone), and avoid a new car payment ... the problem, for many, is that they feel they are entitled to all of this and "cheap" insurance ... still, I think all americans should have access to free care just as federal & state prisoners have access to free care, there is no reason that an inmate should have better access to care IMO.



That is very well stated pendO, not that I agree with all, but there was personal responsibility there and care for those less fortunate. I do not believe all Americans should get free health care. Nothing that we get free is appreciated. The stuff we appreciate are the things that we work for. This is not an American concept, its what we humans are about. It is about that feeling you have when you complete a difficult task after many hours of hard work, and stand back and see what you have accomplished.

We should instill this and other values in our young, no downside I can see.

Why as a society would we want to grant the exact same benefits to a "meth addict" that we grant to our hard working citizens. Yes do we have programs to help these people, absolutely we do. we do have these in place now, but we can't force people to take advantage of what is already there for them.


I see no advantage to expanding the "mommy state".

Brent
10-17-2007, 10:55 PM
We pay separately to our Federal & Provincial governments , the Provincial rates differ from Province to Province (Quebec has the highest rate).All Canadians also pay 6% fed sales as well as provincial sales tax , in Quebec it is 7% & added on top of the federal tax (tax on tax).

We are Taxed up the ying yang & are by no means perfect. :(

TX.X-30 fan
10-17-2007, 11:24 PM
We pay separately to our Federal & Provincial governments , the Provincial rates differ from Province to Province (Quebec has the highest rate).All Canadians also pay 6% fed sales as well as provincial sales tax , in Quebec it is 7% & added on top of the federal tax (tax on tax).

We are Taxed up the ying yang & are by no means perfect. :(






28496



...............ok but I'm the darker hand there because of my sweet tan. :D

Brent
10-18-2007, 06:32 AM
"I see no advantage to expanding the "mommy state".[/QUOTE]


3 main things are driving up the price of health care in the U.S. Insurance companies, lawyers & Pharmaceutical companies all of which are making obscene profits to the detriment of system. On the whole the front line Doctors & nurses are not the problem .

Some times Mommy coming by to let the kid know what their limits are is a good thing.


In Canada our fastest increasing expense is pharmaceuticals .


My hand is getting whiter every day.

You are correct most Canadians take health care for granted & consider it a right & get upset if they are asked to pay anything.

bigmac
10-18-2007, 08:21 AM
3 main things are driving up the price of health care in the U.S. Insurance companies, lawyers & Pharmaceutical companies all of which are making obscene profits to the detriment of system. On the whole the front line Doctors & nurses are not the problem .



I don't disagree that those three things are significant components of rising health care costs, but they're not the "main" things. Increasing technology and just plain increased system utilization are probably the main driving force.

Example: Appendicitis. It used to be that that diagnosis was made based on clinical exam and a few simple lab tests. A doctor pushed and prodded on the belly and looked at the white blood cell count and those things determined whether or not the patient's next stop was the OR. The accepted false positive rate (in the US and Canada) in that situation was 25% - IOW about 25% of those people who went to the OR for appendicitis were found NOT to have appendicitis. NOW, the standard of care is to obtain a CT scan first. That test has increased the diagnostic accuracy to about 95%, sparing a lot of people an unnecessary operation. That's great, but that CT scan costs about $800. Good for the patients, but expensive to the health care system. And that's just one operation in a wide gamut. CT scanning, MRI, Ultrasound, HIDA scanning, coronary artery calcium scoring...a dizzying array of new technology (expensive new technology) that markedly improves diagnostic accuracy, but adds a huge cost to health care and as technology advances just over the last 5 years, better and better such tools have become available. Pulse oximetry during an operation has provided a huge increase in OR patient safety of anesthesia...but those things cost money. And, that appendectomy operation (and many other operations) is now done laparoscopically. Good for the patients because we're talking 2 or 3 1/4 inch incisions instead of one big one, which results in less pain and earlier return to normal activity - appendectomies and gallbladder operations (for example) are outpatient operations now. A surgeon from 20 years ago wouldn't even recognize today's operating room. But the laparoscopic equipment necessary to do those operations adds about 25% to the cost of the operation. It's very expensive technology. It's not like buying a set of hemostats that will last 25 years - think of the advances in digital video technology over the last 5 years....that laparoscopic equipment becomes obsolete rapidly and needs to be replaced with newer, better, more accurate equipment. That costs money. Where does that money come from? Would those patients be willing to NOT avail themselves of better technology to save money? Even save a LOT of money? Should we step back to medical care of 20 years ago just because it's cheaper? How does the medical profession, or goverrnments tell people that the system just can't afford medical care that's the state-of-the-art?

The other aspect of health care cost is more obvious...more and more people using the medical system as the baby boomers hit middle age. A good example is total joint replacement. That's expensive stuff and the increase in people needing to replace their crippling degenerating joints is staggering. Do we tell them they'll just have to be in pain and limp around because those operations are just too expensive?

The answer to that question is different in Canada than it is in the US. Rationing of health care is the only way to keep costs down. Rather than spending money to sprinkle MRI scanners (for example) around the country, if we limit the number of scanners and make people get on a waiting list to get their scan, we can keep costs down. Likewise coronary artery bypass, total joint replacement, even hernias. We tell people they'll just have to live with their problem until we can find a slot for them to get their operation based on the number of such slots that our limited resources can afford.

It is just not as simple an equation as people think, but the choices are the classic interdependant tripod -- 1) high-quality health care, 2) convenient, no waiting list health care 3) cheap health care. But you can only have two of the three choices. The US system has evolved into choices 1 and 2. The Canadian system (and most other single-payer systems) has evolved into choices 1 and 3. Both systems are under pressure to be more like the other. IMHO, Americans better get used to having their health care rationed, or costs will keep going up. It's the only solution.

JimN
10-18-2007, 09:40 AM
"We are Taxed up the ying yang"

That's the crux of the biscuit, right there. People complain about how bad the health care system is here and in the next breath say that they don't want a tax hike to make it better. If the government is going to institute a national health care system, that's the only way it's going to happen. The health care industry won't do anything about their high prices on their own, neither will the pharmaceutical companies. Insurance companies are definitely not there to break even (I don't know of a "not-for-profit" insurance company) and sloppy medical practices are costing people's lives, along with increasing malpractice insurance costs. Add the annual settlements due to lawsuits and I would guess that the actual cost of medical treatment is about half of what we pay.

If the government gets involved, it's gonna turn into the Post Office or DMV. Slow, inefficient, less people who GARA about people who need treatment and care more about how many more years they have to "endure" before they can retire.

We can't have it both ways, but the Federal government needs to get their collective heads out of their butts and stop spending time and money on bills that don't serve the greater good, or the general public.

Jorski
10-18-2007, 10:30 AM
According to the percentages, you show too many overlaps.
A person grossing $118,285 nets about $20K more than someone who grosses $72,756. Why bother making that much more?

Jimn, the Canadian tax rates that were mentioned are marginal tax rates. You get taxed on earnings at the rates in each bracket. For example, you are barely taxed on the first 20,000, then higher on the next $20,000 etc. There is not one single case where you net less when you earn more.

A couple of other points. Anyone that quotes "data" supplied by the Cato Institute should know that they are simply providing Larry Kudlow like infomercial for the Republican belief system.

Finally, if you think that governments are inefficient, can you honestly support the HMO system in the U.S. ? It is a disaster. To say nothing of people who lose jobs in the U.S. when they or their family members are sick, and the cannot afford/qualify for private insurance afterward due to a "pre-existing condition".

Ric
10-18-2007, 10:41 AM
To tell the truth the only country we need to protect ourselves from is the U.S.A! We are your biggest oil supplier & we have more water & natural resources then you do ,I see an invasion in the near future . We have weapons of mass destruction , like beer & pizza.

The land of the free? The U.S. has more people per-capita in prison then anywhere else in the world & it keeps growing. If Money was invested into improving health care & other important social issues you would not need all those police , court houses & prisons.

BTW did you know that less then !% of Americans have more money then the bottom 99% combined? Maybe an adjustment in your tax system is due?
:D :D :D :D BOMB CANADA!!! what a novel idea Brent. Yes, I'd also like you to post the percentage of current tax burden based on the percentages you posted. ... maybe those 99% need to pay more?

bigmac
10-18-2007, 11:30 AM
Finally, if you think that governments are inefficient, can you honestly support the HMO system in the U.S. ? It is a disaster. The HMO system and the Veteran's Administration hospital system are two examples of how a single-payer health care system would work out in the US. Both are perceived as awful by the majority of Americans that use them. That perception isn't necessarily based on the true quality of the care provided. It's based on the fact that both of those systems rely on rationing of health care to be financially viable.

Jorski
10-18-2007, 11:42 AM
Perhaps it is based upon their experiences within those systems.

Ric
10-18-2007, 12:14 PM
all you people did today was weaken a nation

Bruce
10-18-2007, 12:25 PM
Jorski we don't use Cato. We go to your reliable sources such as "move on .org or Michale Moore!

bigmac
10-18-2007, 12:35 PM
Perhaps it is based upon their experiences within those systems.

Of course it is.

The problem is what they perceive as poor quality care may in reality simply be inconvenient care. The guy that comes in with a painful groin hernia that is told that he can't get it fixed for 3 months considers that to be poor-quality care...when in reality there is no adverse effect on his health. His hernia isn't dangerous, just painful. So when we look at statistics, we see that deaths from hernias are the same in both the HMO single-payer model and the 3rd party payer model. But the guy who has Blue Cross, or even Medicaid/Medical Assistance, got his hernia repaired in 3 days instead of 3 months. Looks great statistically - HMO has the same death rate and is a lot cheaper, but patient satisfaction and perceived quality is better for the guy who got the more prompt service.

TX.X-30 fan
10-18-2007, 12:45 PM
all you people did today was weaken a nation




???? Set the pipe down before you burn your fingers!!:D

Jorski
10-18-2007, 02:03 PM
Of course it is.

The problem is what they perceive as poor quality care may in reality simply be inconvenient care. The guy that comes in with a painful groin hernia that is told that he can't get it fixed for 3 months considers that to be poor-quality care...when in reality there is no adverse effect on his health. His hernia isn't dangerous, just painful. So when we look at statistics, we see that deaths from hernias are the same in both the HMO single-payer model and the 3rd party payer model. But the guy who has Blue Cross, or even Medicaid/Medical Assistance, got his hernia repaired in 3 days instead of 3 months. Looks great statistically - HMO has the same death rate and is a lot cheaper, but patient satisfaction and perceived quality is better for the guy who got the more prompt service.


Bigmac,

The very same argument could be made for Canadian health care. The main point is we spend as a nation a great deal less than the U.S. on health care (so does everyone) and there is not a significant difference in the outcome.

True, if you are wealthy in the U.S. and you truck up to the Mayo Clinic you may get superior care. Not likely the case for an uninsured, or medicaid patient.

I would argue that the median levels of health care are quite comparable; but that the range of delivery (from bottom of the range to top) is much wider in the U.S. - on both ends.

It just comes down to whether or not one believes that medical care is an externality imperfectly served by the market place. I'm not saying that a single payer system is perfect, no system is. I just happen to believe that the rest of the industrialized world has it right in this case.

In Canada, we tend to guard healthcare as a right, much like how the Americans reguard free speach. Just beware all of the purely bogus mis-characterizations thrown around about the Canadian system. Trust me if you truly need attention in Canada - you get it.

Bruce
10-18-2007, 02:19 PM
Is anyone here giving proper weight to pain? It seems that the opinion here is if it don't kill you, you can wait! That is BS on either side of the border.

bigmac
10-18-2007, 03:32 PM
Bigmac,

The very same argument could be made for Canadian health care. The main point is we spend as a nation a great deal less than the U.S. on health care (so does everyone) and there is not a significant difference in the outcome.



That's not the measure that being taken relative to satisfaction with the Canadian health care system. Yes, it costs less, yes the quality is at least equivalent, but I'm telling you that the guy that's having a lot of pain from GERD, or from his hernia, or from his cardiac angina and is told that has to wait in line and that that problem will be addressed in a few months...that guy ain't happy. BUT, if we look at the OUTCOMES, they're equivalent. No argument there.

Americans do indeed pay a premium for their health care. At least part of what they get for those increased costs is the fact that their local hospital in their little town of 5000 people has a CT scanner and MRI scanner. If they come in with blinding headaches, they don't have to wait 6 weeks to get their MRI and drive 250 miles to get it. They can likely get their major operation there too, not have to wait in line, not have to drive hundreds of miles to a major city hospital. They're paying that extra money for convenience and accessibility, not quality. Believe me, Americans are used to that. They won't give it up easily.

bigmac
10-18-2007, 03:34 PM
Is anyone here giving proper weight to pain? It seems that the opinion here is if it don't kill you, you can wait! That is BS on either side of the border.

Indeed. Pain is irrelevant. If it's not going to kill you, you can wait. But...the OUTCOMES, the statistical measure of success, will be equivalent.

JimN
10-18-2007, 04:07 PM
First, I didn't say the net was less after grossing more, I was pointing out that for someone who either busts their butt, knows something others don't or can do things others can't and makes the $118xxx gross, compared with someone who makes $72xxx, the net is only about $22K higher, when the gross difference is over $44K more. That's a big hit just for being smarter, doing more or doing things that are rare/difficult. That should be rewarded.

There's never going to be a universally accepted formula for taxing people. Nobody I know will volunteer to be taxed more than they are. OTOH, it has to come from somewhere and the only ways I know of that governments receive money is through seizure or taxation. I also know that there are few entities that are as wasteful as government agencies and programs.

I never said I support HMOs, either. I would rather choose where to go and who's going to treat me.

"A couple of other points. Anyone that quotes "data" supplied by the Cato Institute should know that they are simply providing Larry Kudlow like infomercial for the Republican belief system."

When did I do that? I wasn't quoting the Cato Institute, I was going by the data I have read all over.

Brent
10-18-2007, 05:32 PM
May I suggest that if you are American & live close to the Canadian Border & you are worried your health insurance may be limited go to a Canadian hospital & your insurance provider would be happy to pay what the Canadian system charges & the Canadian side would be happy to be charging the premium over what the system pays ! Everyone wins!!!!!!!!!:D


The argument about accessibly with MRI's in small towns sound great if you have good insurance., otherwise I beg to differ.

Bruce
10-18-2007, 05:39 PM
Indeed. Pain is irrelevant. If it's not going to kill you, you can wait. But...the OUTCOMES, the statistical measure of success, will be equivalent.

Again I say BS. Is making a patient pain free not a measure of success? If pain is irrelevant I sure don" want you operating on me because you might wish not to use anesthesia as a cost saving measure. The next time I am loading a trauma patient in the back of a med unit and they are screaming their heads off I'll just say chill out your pain won't kill you it is IRRELEVANT!

Monte
10-18-2007, 05:41 PM
May I suggest that if you are American & live close to the Canadian Border & you are worried your health insurance may be limited go to a Canadian hospital & your insurance provider would be happy to pay what the Canadian system charges & the Canadian side would be happy to be charging the premium over what the system pays ! Everyone wins!!!!!!!!!:D


The argument about accessibly with MRI's in small towns sound great if you have good insurance., otherwise I beg to differ.

Sorry, Out of network;)



AND Treatment cannot be refused in the US....


That is why there is such a problem with costs for US medical care.. half the people don't pay anyway.. If the bills get too high the patient files bankruptcy.. The medical facilities wind up having to charge the paying customers/ ins cos more to make ends meet. Just a little more subsidising for the responsible people in the country..

Don't get me started on medicaid.......

bigmac
10-18-2007, 05:45 PM
Again I say BS. Is making a patient pain free not a measure of success? If pain is irrelevant I sure don" want you operating on me because you might wish not to use anesthesia as a cost saving measure. The next time I am loading a trauma patient in the back of a med unit and they are screaming their heads off I'll just say chill out your pain won't kill you it is IRRELEVANT!

Give me a break. I'm addressing the Canadian view, not mine. When they trot out their outcome statistics, those outcomes do not address how much discomfort the patient had nor how long they had to wait with that discomfort before the issue was addressed.

sheesh

bigmac
10-18-2007, 05:49 PM
The argument about accessibly with MRI's in small towns sound great if you have good insurance., otherwise I beg to differ.You can beg to differ all you want, but until you can tell us how many MRI's you've ordered in a small town in the US (and it had better be at least ONE), you have zero credibility on the issue. You're just spouting your opinion. And you know what they say about opinions.

Moderator4
10-18-2007, 06:15 PM
This thread is worthless without pictures!

Bruce
10-18-2007, 06:17 PM
Give me a break. I'm addressing the Canadian view, not mine. When they trot out their outcome statistics, those outcomes do not address how much discomfort the patient had nor how long they had to wait with that discomfort before the issue was addressed.

sheesh
I am certainly glad to know this was not your view. I am 99.9% in accord with your post as a rule. I respect your opinion and you broad knowledge. I am glad that was not sacrificed with one comment. However, you were responding to my post. Tell me how I was to know you were addressing the Canadian view.

sheesh!

TX.X-30 fan
10-18-2007, 08:24 PM
This thread is worthless without pictures!



To steal a line from Tex "Classic". :D

TX.X-30 fan
10-18-2007, 08:31 PM
Youse guy's like them taxes up there Eh? :D








28513

bigmac
10-18-2007, 09:27 PM
I am certainly glad to know this was not your view. I am 99.9% in accord with your post as a rule. I respect your opinion and you broad knowledge. I am glad that was not sacrificed with one comment. However, you were responding to my post. Tell me how I was to know you were addressing the Canadian view.

sheesh!


My posts #88 above is in reference to my post #87 and it was not my intent that #88 stand alone. That relationship was clear in my mind, but apparently I should have stated it more clearly. I apologize for the lack of amplification and the resultant confusion.

Brent
10-18-2007, 10:15 PM
Youse guy's like them taxes up there Eh? :D








28513


I think we have tax's on those to!;)

Bruce
10-18-2007, 11:52 PM
My posts #88 above is in reference to my post #87 and it was not my intent that #88 stand alone. That relationship was clear in my mind, but apparently I should have stated it more clearly. I apologize for the lack of amplification and the resultant confusion.

Apology not only accepted but greatly appreciated. I am pleased that you are the person I believed you to be. In my wildest imagination I could not believe that statement could be coming from you as a person or physican.
As to the Canadian position, that dog won't hunt down here. As I said earlier foks are lining up to get into the USA. I don't see a line to get out! God bless America!

jpattigr
10-18-2007, 11:56 PM
I guess the hornets nest is wide open, and i my be guilty a bit!!

Couple of points,

TAXES, Brent lives in Quebec and they are the highest taxes in all of Canada by far, Quebec would be the furthest "left" of all the provinces. I live in Alberta and we enjoy the lowest taxes in Canada and the max rate for both Federal and provincal combined is 39% on money earned over $120K ands much less below that. Alberta also has no provincal sales tax where Brent pays an extra 7% on retail purchases.
A friend of mine moved from Alberta to North Carolina and his total tax bill was much higher in NC when he factored property taxes, income taxes sales taxes etc. Our property taxes are very low, I live on 4 acres near Calgary and my house is worth about 1.2 m and my taxes are $3300 a year which I think is very good.

PRIVATE VS PUBLIC health, Canada is moving to private care in many areas, if I want an MRI (just because) I can go to a private clinic in morning and have it done right away, I will pay out of pocket. If my knee is sore and I don't want to wait I can pay for surgery and have it done any time I like. I can now pay extra insurance for this type of care. I also can drive over the border to the fine country of America (I am a fan of your fine country by the way!!) and walk into any hospital and purchase some fine health care.
However, in my 43 years, I have yet to need to do any of those things for myself or anyone in my family, the current system has worked for me and we are all healthy at this time.

FREE Health care does not exist any where in the world, we all pay one way or another, the issue is the quality of care and access for all.

THANKS ANDRE, For defending our troops that have been overseas in Afghanistan fighting to bring Bin Laden down, last time I checked it was Bin Laden that caused 9/11 and no justice has been served. Many Canadians have died over there trying very hard, we are very proud of our troops that are fighting beside our allies to bring peace and freedom!

I would say, lastly that if I had to start a new country from ground up and had to pick between 2 imperfect health systems, I would defiantly pick the Canadian system. HOWEVER there many other things that I would pick from the USA over Canada, I love your highway system!!

PS Please keep in mind that no 2 countries in the world are as closely aligned. We do more trade between our countries then any other 2 in the world! That is a fact, USA trades more with Canada then China, Japan or any other nation.

All the best to all, and I hope none of us need to use any health care system!!

jpattigr
10-19-2007, 12:01 AM
We were both posting at the same time and after I read your comment thought you should know that over 1 million Americans inquired about emigrating to Canada after your last election. Canada's goverment offices were swamped with calls!

America is not the only country that the world wants into!

TX.X-30 fan
10-19-2007, 05:15 AM
We were both posting at the same time and after I read your comment thought you should know that over 1 million Americans inquired about emigrating to Canada after your last election. Canada's goverment offices were swamped with calls!

America is not the only country that the world wants into!




I hope they all did. :D

Brent
10-19-2007, 07:58 AM
I guess the hornets nest is wide open, and i my be guilty a bit!!

Couple of points,

TAXES, Brent lives in Quebec and they are the highest taxes in all of Canada by far, Quebec would be the furthest "left" of all the provinces. I live in Alberta and we enjoy the lowest taxes in Canada and the max rate for both Federal and provincal combined is 39% on money earned over $120K ands much less below that. Alberta also has no provincal sales tax where Brent pays an extra 7% on retail purchases.
A friend of mine moved from Alberta to North Carolina and his total tax bill was much higher in NC when he factored property taxes, income taxes sales taxes etc. Our property taxes are very low, I live on 4 acres near Calgary and my house is worth about 1.2 m and my taxes are $3300 a year which I think is very good.

PRIVATE VS PUBLIC health, Canada is moving to private care in many areas, if I want an MRI (just because) I can go to a private clinic in morning and have it done right away, I will pay out of pocket. If my knee is sore and I don't want to wait I can pay for surgery and have it done any time I like. I can now pay extra insurance for this type of care. I also can drive over the border to the fine country of America (I am a fan of your fine country by the way!!) and walk into any hospital and purchase some fine health care.
However, in my 43 years, I have yet to need to do any of those things for myself or anyone in my family, the current system has worked for me and we are all healthy at this time.

FREE Health care does not exist any where in the world, we all pay one way or another, the issue is the quality of care and access for all.

THANKS ANDRE, For defending our troops that have been overseas in Afghanistan fighting to bring Bin Laden down, last time I checked it was Bin Laden that caused 9/11 and no justice has been served. Many Canadians have died over there trying very hard, we are very proud of our troops that are fighting beside our allies to bring peace and freedom!

I would say, lastly that if I had to start a new country from ground up and had to pick between 2 imperfect health systems, I would defiantly pick the Canadian system. HOWEVER there many other things that I would pick from the USA over Canada, I love your highway system!!

PS Please keep in mind that no 2 countries in the world are as closely aligned. We do more trade between our countries then any other 2 in the world! That is a fact, USA trades more with Canada then China, Japan or any other nation.

All the best to all, and I hope none of us need to use any health care system!!

I second your sentiments.

In the U.S. as in Canada the population is pretty much split down the middle in terms of political leanings & both sides should be able to express their opinions freely.

Our heath care systems are pretty much even in terms of end results for patients ,the difference here is everyone has access & we still pay much less overall in the end.

bdecker
10-19-2007, 08:06 AM
I hope they all did. :D

Hmmm, weren't there a couple celebrities, like a Mr Baldwin who said they were leaving based on the results of the last election... I guess they haven't been able to sell their Long Island estates yet... maybe there is an issue with shipping the Bentley...

bdecker
10-19-2007, 08:24 AM
Our heath care systems are pretty much even in terms of end results for patients ,the difference here is everyone has access & we still pay much less overall in the end.[/QUOTE]

Frankly I don't study the statistics enough to comment intelligently on your statement, but my experience suggests that it isn't true...

My best friend is Canadian. We were both injured in the summer of 2004. Mine was a ligament tear (waterskiing of course), his was a much more serious injury in the leg. I went to the best surgeon I could find in Boston, and exactly one month later was on my way to recovery. He endured several surgeries by the admitting ER doc who, based on the system structure, sticks with the case unless you get your case accepted by a specialist. He spent well over a year on the waiting list for an appointment with the specialist, and when he finally got there, the procedure was no longer viable. To say the results would have been different in the US is pure speculation, but given the same conditions in the US (employed, insured, etc), he would have at least been able to get a second opinion.

bdecker
10-19-2007, 08:27 AM
Our heath care systems are pretty much even in terms of end results for patients ,the difference here is everyone has access & we still pay much less overall in the end.

Frankly I don't study the statistics enough to comment intelligently on your statement, but my experience suggests that it isn't true...

My best friend is Canadian. We were both injured in the summer of 2004. Mine was a ligament tear (waterskiing of course), his was a much more serious injury in the leg. I went to the best surgeon I could find in Boston, and exactly one month later was on my way to recovery. He endured several surgeries by the admitting ER doc who, based on the system structure, sticks with the case unless you get your case accepted by a specialist. He spent well over a year on the waiting list for an appointment with the specialist, and when he finally got there, the procedure was no longer viable. To say the results would have been different in the US is pure speculation, but given the same conditions in the US (employed, insured, etc), he would have at least been able to get a second opinion.[/QUOTE]

Monte
10-19-2007, 08:28 AM
Quite a can of worms you opened up here Shep:rolleyes: Good job:cool: :rolleyes:

JimN
10-19-2007, 09:27 AM
"Hmmm, weren't there a couple celebrities, like a Mr Baldwin who said they were leaving based on the results of the last election... I guess they haven't been able to sell their Long Island estates yet... maybe there is an issue with shipping the Bentley.."

Actually, it was Alex and Kim, Barbra Streisand and James Brolin, plus others and it was the 2000 election. Lyin' sacks o' garbage!

Thinking back, I think that maybe it would have been worth getting a bunch of people together and forcing them to live up to their threats. They would never leave- they know how good they have it here.

shepherd
10-19-2007, 09:39 AM
Quite a can of worms you opened up here Shep:rolleyes: Good job:cool: :rolleyes:

Thanks! We almost started a war but it looks like peace has returned once again to the land.



Now if we can get that hockey crap off our TVs...


:D

jpattigr
10-19-2007, 10:09 AM
Yeah,

Your right about Hockey, it moves way too fast, takes way too much skill and has way too much going on!!

Down south you should stick to the Tractor Pulls, Bowling and Nascar (turn left, turn left)

LOL, :D

jpattigr
10-19-2007, 10:14 AM
By the way, it was after 2004 election that Canada was flooded with calls about moving north by regular folks that did not support GW.

I am not saying we wanted these folks either, but they did call!!

I do believe that we are all very lucky to live here in North America on either side of the border with no fences!!

We have way more in common then different!! :rolleyes:

jpattigr
10-19-2007, 10:21 AM
My wife has some knee issues, (wearing out and old injury's) and has gone to several different surgeons for options. She is getting surgery to clean it up in a couple of weeks and is hoping for the best!! It was interesting that once she saw a sports doctor at the university that he understood her desires to be able to continue skiing (water and snow!) for the rest of her life and that a middle aged women can do these things!!
We can go to as many doctors / Surgeons as we want. You are not assigned a doctor, you pick who and where you want to go and can change at any time.
You did mention in all fairness that his injury was much more serious and we all know what knees are like.
Just thought you should know that we all have choices just the same.

Ric
10-19-2007, 11:27 AM
By the way, it was after 2004 election that Canada was flooded with calls about moving north by regular folks that did not support GW.

I am not saying we wanted these folks either, but they did call!!

I do believe that we are all very lucky to live here in North America on either side of the border with no fences!!

We have way more in common then different!! :rolleyes: I thought all those people said all that after the 2000 election?????? anyway I am still waiting for them to go. Have an influx of liberal Americans rushing to Canada do you?:rolleyes:

shepherd
10-19-2007, 11:50 AM
I know an old couple - old friends of my father - who sold their cherry farm in the Traverse City, MI area and moved to New Brunswick. I'm sure the main reasons they did it were that they were too old to continue farming and the wife was originally from that area. But one reason they gave for the move is that they hated George Bush!

I'm sure they got millions for that property. If it was me, I'd have taken that money south to the beach! :)

btw, I voted for the guy twice and I'm not really too happy with him either. But there's no way I'm moving to Canada. The summers are too short and I hear their health care system sucks.

Bruce
10-19-2007, 12:27 PM
We were both posting at the same time and after I read your comment thought you should know that over 1 million Americans inquired about emigrating to Canada after your last election. Canada's goverment offices were swamped with calls!

America is not the only country that the world wants into!

Let's see: a bunch of liberals lose an election so they they wish to pick up their toys and run. Every time there is draft to defend this great country a bunch of cowards wish to flee the country. Guess where they wish to go. "Oh Canada----" As you know our lady liberty opens our door to the tired, the poor---. Perhaps Canada should adopt a slogan that says "send us you malcontents, your cowards,--" I think they would fit right in. Many of them already have.

TX.X-30 fan
10-19-2007, 12:49 PM
I know an old couple - old friends of my father - who sold their cherry farm in the Traverse City, MI area and moved to New Brunswick. I'm sure the main reasons they did it were that they were too old to continue farming and the wife was originally from that area. But one reason they gave for the move is that they hated George Bush!

I'm sure they got millions for that property. If it was me, I'd have taken that money south to the beach! :)

btw, I voted for the guy twice and I'm not really too happy with him either. But there's no way I'm moving to Canada. The summers are too short and I hear their health care system sucks.


Never say die Eh Shep. :D

JimN
10-19-2007, 01:22 PM
Why are people poking Canadians in the eyes with sticks? It's probably the closest in their way of life, compared to the US. If someone wants to go, they can go. Unless someone is typically American, I would even think Quebec would want them (I hear the French Canadians hate people who speak English and it doesn't matter is they speak it well, or not).

That old couple can hate Bush all they want but their standard of living is better than if Gore or Kerry would have been elected- they would probably have lost quite a few tax bennies by now and we would all be paying for things that were defeated in Congress. I'm pretty sure Gore and Kerry wanted to jack up the capital gains taxes on business and real estate sales. They would have lost quite a bit, although what they got was a lot more than they had into it and will be more than they'll ever spend (unless they develop bad gambling habits or just pizz it away), if they were there for any length of time. People of that age generally don't spend like a drunken sailor on leave ("I can't leave now, I think she really likes me!").

JimN
10-19-2007, 01:33 PM
One thing that baffles me is how poor people hate rich people. It's pure envy of the wealth and money, but jealousy is really an ugly emotion. The thing about all of the money and things is that it's available to everyone. The main reason a lot of people will never have all of those things is that they didn't finish school and even that isn't an absolute reason for not being able to get rich. There are plenty of rich people who never finished school, the ones who will never get it are the ones who couldn't make a good decision if there was a gun to their head. Not having good parents is a huge factor but again, that's not an absolute, either. Not born here and don't speak English as the first language? No problem. Plenty of foreign-born people have come here and become very wealthy- one of my physics profs, included.

It's all here for everyone to achieve. If they work hard, make some good connections and think about what their actions will produce, it's possible. If they insist on doing crack, meth and other drugs, start boozing when they're young (or later, it really doesn't matter) and think life will be just peachy if they leave school at the tender age of 15 because they made a long list of other bad decisions, it's very unlikely. Money is money and things are just things- it's more about what someone does with it after they get it. Being an incredibly rich A-hole is a waste of oxygen and food.

Too many have lost all hope of having a decent life, never mind being rich.

PendO
10-19-2007, 02:13 PM
I'm not sure why or how this became a thread about usa vs. canada ... living so damn close to BC I can tell you that the people up there are awesome ... I was skiing up there (snow) many years ago and I got in a pretty good wreck (broke my nose) ... the ski patrol guy (@ Whitewater) was awesome, mind-you, I'm bleeding pretty damn bad and he doesn't even worry about putting on gloves or anything to start helping me out ... every time I cross the border into canada I feel welcomed and every time I come back to the states I get grilled ... plus if not for canada our local WHL team would have like 3 players ... so thanks Canada for your hockey players, beer, ski mountains (and ski patrolers) ... now I am off to take my 2 girls to the doc for a checkup and even with insurance it will probably cost me 100 bucks ... also, since the canadian dollar is worth as much or more, I think that my leftover canadian coins should start to work in the candy machines now?

shepherd
10-19-2007, 02:24 PM
I hope nobody takes any of my comments on this thread seriously. I've got nothing against Canadians. Heck, my mother's family is from up there (Michigan ;) ) so we're practically family!





(I still don't like hockey though)

Monte
10-19-2007, 02:59 PM
I hope nobody takes any of my comments on this thread seriously. I've got nothing against Canadians. Heck, my mother's family is from up there (Michigan ) so we're practically family!





(I still don't like hockey though)

We DID take them seriously:mad: Look what you started:mad: How could we forgive ourselves if Canada looked down on us:rolleyes: :D

jpattigr
10-19-2007, 03:43 PM
I work in the ski Biz up here in Canada, so thanks for the great plugs for our hills!!
You will have to come at Lake Louise, Kicking horse and Fernie some day!
I have yet to ski Whitewater but I here it is awesome for the snow and backcountry!
I have 2 cat ski trips planned for this winter and can't wait!
WHL hockey is awesome, those kids work their butts off! Go Hitmen!!

TX.X-30 fan
10-29-2007, 07:39 PM
Long waiting lists, substandard treatment, increasing threat from hospital superbugs

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: October 28, 2007
1:00 a.m. Eastern



© 2007 WorldNetDaily.com


Filmmaker Michael Moore praises the UK's National Health Service as a model for the U.S. in his latest film, "Sicko," but record numbers of British citizens have apparently not seen the movie and are going abroad and paying out of their own pockets to obtain better health care.

More than 70,000 Britons will have treatment abroad this year, the London Sunday Telegraph reported, a number that is forecast to rise to 200,000 by 2010.

In the first survey of its kind in the UK, Britons said long waits for treatment by the NHS and fears of the growing hospital-infection crisis were the primary reasons they chose to seek medical care elsewhere.

India is the most popular destination for surgery, followed by Hungary, Turkey, Germany, Malaysia, Poland and Spain. According to the survey conducted by Treatment Abroad, "health tourists" from the UK travel to 48 countries.

(Story continues below)


The NHS is coming under increased criticism for its failure to provide health care. Cases of the superbug Clostridium difficile have increased 500 percent in the last 10 years and are expected to climb above the 55,000 cases reported in 2006.

Long waiting periods for surgery have imposed a de facto rationing system on medical treatment. Last month, a British man was told he did not qualify for a simple surgery because he was a smoker.

Costs for the NHS have risen due to increased bureaucracy that prevents nurses from seeing patients and increased compensation to general practitioners that have seen their earnings rise over 50 percent in the last three years.

Health tourists are courted on the Internet by foreign doctors and hospitals that offer consultations online or with agents in the UK. Cost of a heart-bypass operation in India, including the flight and hotel, are less than half what the same would cost at a private British hospital. The shortage of dentists in Britain is being met by dentists in Hungary.

"The confidence that the public has in NHS hospitals has been shattered by the growth of hospital infections and this government's failure to make a real commitment to tackling it," said Katherine Murphy, of the Patients' Association. "People are simply frightened of going to NHS hospitals, so I am not surprised the numbers going abroad are increasing so rapidly. My fear is that most people can't afford to have private treatment – whether in this country or abroad."

In the survey, almost all of those who obtained treatment abroad said they would do it again.


And what's not been a widely reported is that France and Canada are doing the same?????

Welcome to govt. run health care. (Hillary Care). ;)



28750



28751


:D :D

shepherd
10-29-2007, 08:07 PM
Just wouldn't let it die, would you? :rolleyes:

:D

TX.X-30 fan
10-29-2007, 08:35 PM
Just wouldn't let it die, would you? :rolleyes:

:D




Just up for some Canada bashing tonight, what can I say??? :D

Ric
10-31-2007, 04:27 PM
what happened to the gay republican thread?

captain planet
10-31-2007, 04:40 PM
all you people did today was weaken a nation
A Few Good Men.....

oops, wrong thread!:rolleyes: