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tones03
09-24-2007, 08:55 AM
This isnt good. :mad:


http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070924/UPDATE/709240402

"GM, UAW still talking as 11 a.m. strike deadline approaches

Sharon Terlep / The Detroit News

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General Motors Corp. and the United Auto Workers negotiated through the night on Sunday and were still in talks this morning, hours before the union's 11 a.m. strike deadline.

The UAW told its locals late Sunday that it will strike if a deal isn't reached this morning.

Ten days have passed since the UAW's contract with GM expired, and though the two sides have been negotiating every day since, they have been unable to agree on a deal. Bargaining has continued on an hour-by-hour extension.

In a letter e-mailed Sunday to local union presidents and chairpersons, UAW president Ron Gettelfinger said GM isn't making satisfactory commitments on U.S. investments and that other key issues remain unresolved.

"We thought we would be able to accomplish this no later than this weekend, but our efforts have been to no avail," he said in the letter. "While we have made progress in many areas, GM has failed to address major concerns.

"Unless you hear otherwise from your International Union and Local Union leadership, you should consider yourself on strike at 11:00 a.m."

There hasn't been a strike at GM since the UAW walked out in Flint in 1998.

As of late Sunday, bargainers were still discussing pensions, GM's U.S. investments and outsourcing, along with retiree health care, sources familiar with the negotiations said.

A company-financed, union-run trust to pay for retiree medical expenses is expected to be the core of a new contract, with GM and the UAW agreeing last week on a framework for the trust, known as a voluntary employees' beneficiary association. Financial agreements related to the VEBA also were a topic of weekend talks.

After months of virtual silence surrounding negotiations, the UAW on Sunday began to air its complaints.

The union released statements from Gettlefinger and UAW Vice President Cal Rapson in which the leaders expressed their displeasure and listed recent cases in which the union has worked with the company to help GM downsize and cut costs.

Among those instances is the 2005 health care deal in which the union agreed to take over a larger share of medical expenses and last year's massive buyout program that helped GM shed 34,000 hourly workers.

"This is our reward," said Rapson, the union's lead negotiator with GM, "a complete failure by GM to address the reasonable needs and concerns of our members. Instead, in 2007, company executives continued to award themselves bonuses while demanding that our members accept a reduced standard of living."

GM officials said the company is still working to resolve the issue without a strike.

"We are fully committed to working with the UAW to develop solutions together," GM spokesman Dan Flores said. "We will continue focusing our efforts to reach an agreement as soon as possible."

You think there would be a better way to solve this then striking...

tones03
09-24-2007, 11:07 AM
Just after 11, i havent heard anything, glad I am not at a plant.

milkmania
09-24-2007, 11:22 AM
59 GM plants are now on strike

bigmac
09-24-2007, 11:42 AM
How many different ways can industrial America and its workforce shoot itself in the foot?

Monte
09-24-2007, 11:56 AM
How many different ways can industrial America and its workforce shoot itself in the foot?

You got that right!

I don't understand why with all of the jobs going overseas and south anybody with a current job would think that is a good idea??

Maristar210
09-24-2007, 12:00 PM
The union balloon is pissing air daily. I am a Plant Manager of a Union Shop and their effectiviting has dwindled.

When is it that bad moustache boy (Gettlefinger) is going to understand that an assembly technician should not make 75k? Some of teh things he says I cannot believe he says with a straight face.

Milk do you have those UAW membership decline levels??

tones03
09-24-2007, 12:14 PM
Just drove through some picket lines. They have been planning on this for a while and waiting for it. Not a good thing, not much good can come of this.

Maristar210
09-24-2007, 12:19 PM
It going to be cold very soon, I hope they enjoy the picket lines 8p 8p

1boarder
09-24-2007, 12:21 PM
I work in a different field, but we have roughly 650 union workers and 90 sallaried workers and our contract expired in June.

Unions won't be happy till no one has an industry job, as we continue to price ourselves out of the market and companies go oversees.

I can't believe their union wants gm to guarantee that they will have a job in the future. If I remember correctly, isn't there a large group of people from gm drawing a paycheck after the plant got shutdown due to poor negotiating from gm a while ago.

tones03
09-24-2007, 12:49 PM
If I remember correctly, isn't there a large group of people from gm drawing a paycheck after the plant got shutdown due to poor negotiating from gm a while ago.

Yeah but it isnt such a big deal now. They would have gone in the jobs bank but during the buy outs, most of those people took them and left or were relocated.

tones03
09-24-2007, 01:08 PM
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2007/09/gm-strike.html

GM has been stock piling vehicles just in case this happened. So you can still go out and buy GM!

jeverett
09-24-2007, 03:47 PM
As if the Big three weren't hurting enough. This should make for some interesting times in America. Sorry for those that are caught in the middle, but I agree with Big Mac that this is just one more nail in the coffin for Industry. Why make it here when you can make it cheaper somewhere else.

River Rat
09-24-2007, 05:21 PM
This is going to get messy but here it goes



The chemical plant I work in had a strong union for many years and it has been good for us salary folks. Kept our wages up, and good benefits coming our way. NO we donít make 75k base pay but with our OT we can live a good life. Now 5 years ago the company broke the union, they got prepared, drove them out on strike, and then starved them back in. I canít complain too much because it was my job to help. After 3 years things started going down hill. Everyone that has been hired the last 2 years has not had the benefit of a retirement, everyone that will be hired after Jan. 1st will not get a retirement or medical 0. We are now some of the lowest paid employees in the area. But if you look at our company financial report every year the big dogs are raking in millions and it keeps getting bigger every year. It appears that they are taking money out of our pocket and putting it in theirs. Where do you think the money will come from when the working hands are to broke to buy the new cars that they build. I guess they will have to just sell them to Plant Managers and Rock Stars. Yes Unions have problems but they also have benefits as well. These people have families and wishing them out in the cold is chitty, even for a plant manager.

I know nothing of the issues facing these guys and these comments are based only on my experience in my little corner of the world



And that is all I have to say about that

Upper Michigan Prostar190
09-24-2007, 06:20 PM
I still want to be a rock star.

tones03
09-24-2007, 06:25 PM
"Party like a Rock Star" :)

tones03
09-24-2007, 06:27 PM
So those people that dont think GM is an american company and all that stuff, 73,000 workers in 30 states are striking. If this last long MI wont be the only state deeply affected by this.

bigmac
09-24-2007, 06:40 PM
Toyota is the biggest beneficiary of this strike. The higher the price of GM vehicles, the more Toyotas will get sold.

Everyone go look in your closets. See if you can find an item of clothing that was sewn here in the USA....

tones03
09-24-2007, 06:50 PM
Mac, I think Ford and Chrysler are, most likely what ever deal they reach will go to Ford and Chrysler too. They get the benefit of GM's strike with out any of the pain. Toyota will win out too though.

I have found 3 shirts that are made in USA.

Footin
09-24-2007, 07:38 PM
River Rat, I can agree with some of what you say; however one of the main reasons for this strike is "that GM will not gaurentee factory jobs will stay in the US" The union wants a promise that no other american worker, union or not, will EVER receive from their employer.

Maristar210
09-24-2007, 08:28 PM
This is going to get messy but here it goes



The chemical plant I work in had a strong union for many years and it has been good for us salary folks. Kept our wages up, and good benefits coming our way. NO we donít make 75k base pay but with our OT we can live a good life. Now 5 years ago the company broke the union, they got prepared, drove them out on strike, and then starved them back in. I canít complain too much because it was my job to help. After 3 years things started going down hill. Everyone that has been hired the last 2 years has not had the benefit of a retirement, everyone that will be hired after Jan. 1st will not get a retirement or medical 0. We are now some of the lowest paid employees in the area. But if you look at our company financial report every year the big dogs are raking in millions and it keeps getting bigger every year. It appears that they are taking money out of our pocket and putting it in theirs. Where do you think the money will come from when the working hands are to broke to buy the new cars that they build. I guess they will have to just sell them to Plant Managers and Rock Stars. Yes Unions have problems but they also have benefits as well. These people have families and wishing them out in the cold is chitty, even for a plant manager.

I know nothing of the issues facing these guys and these comments are based only on my experience in my little corner of the world



And that is all I have to say about that

I respect your position and I respect your post. My off the cuff to me comments about the cold were the two sides might be in for a battle but I doubt it.

Let me ask you: During contract negotiations ( I am in now for 2008) Has your life ever been threatened? Have you had people throw roofing nails in your driveway where your children play over 10cents per hour? Anyone ever spit in your face simply because they believe what the local office feeds them without simple deduction? Have you ever had a business agent shake his fist in your face because you ask them to bear a portion of the skyrocketing health care coats?

**** no you haven't. You want it just like it was before when times were good, you earned a great living and never busted your *** one day (at least in our case, I don't know you and I 'm speaking in general terms)

The fact of the matter is most of these UAW guys are not very well educated, have little or no skills and and are scared to death. I don't blame them. I have a stack of applications in my office from people who are assemblers with no high school diploma and 25 years at Electrolux. What do you think they want for a starting wage? 15-19 per hour with essentially zero skills.

You can say what you want but when you pay a guy $19 per hour to place a platic rack in a refrigerator you are either a ticking time bomb or you are nieve. In either case you are soon to be unemployed.

My negativity is based upn the above ans the fact that many of these people still walk in my door, don't look you in the eye, don't speak well and STILL EXPECT TO START TOMORROW.

Let your conscience be your guide if you feel like you are earning a good living for a good days pay then so be it. But if you are making 50-75K for putting a bolt in a tapped hole then you had beeter be saving your nickels.

Lastly, I think your position may be different than that in the state of Michigan. Buncha greedy ****ers up here....

KY Larry
09-24-2007, 08:49 PM
I AM Union. I am worried. We will never be able to compete with other countries in this *global economy*. They do not follow the same EPA rules.... they do not have near the *hurdles* that we MUST follow in USA to manufacture the same product.

Yes, it is confusing to see/hear of an un-educated man make a high wage for a repetitious job that wears on your body... day after day, after day. Don't knock a guy until you've *walked in his shoes*.

So 10 or 20 years from now, when your kids/grandkids don't have the opportunities to make a decent living, thank the lopsided *FAIR Trade* for sending all our money overseas.

Buy made in USA whenever you can. Is anyone on this forum considering buying the Toyota boats?? Scary. Very Scary. They are killing USA economy by our greed.

When a company turns profits, all we union workers want is our share of the profits. The strike at GM... we are "giving" this time. The media does not share that. Everyone assumes we are bargaining for more. This time we are giving back. We just want to be fair and not give back everything.

Last comment:
It is sad to see so many posts against american workers and for other countries. I'll bet your the people that I see American flag stickers on your KIA's, Toyota's, etc. If you are so proud of America, support her.

JBaker
09-24-2007, 09:12 PM
Toyota is the biggest beneficiary of this strike. The higher the price of GM vehicles, the more Toyotas will get sold.

Like Toyota needs any help:noface:

michael freeman
09-24-2007, 09:28 PM
I buy American products when it is a better product for a reasonable price, NOT because it is American. If we don't produce a better product, charity is not going to save us. I drive a GMC truck because I think it is the best truck for me, I bought my X-30 because I thought it was the best boat.

The same argument was made when machines replaced the farm workers. The solution is to teach our children to drive, make, or manage the machines, not to force the farm owner to use your labor.

Second the farm owner is risking a lot more to make his money, they should reap the bigger reward. For a farm worker to demand the same benefits, bonus, etc., is not realistic. The farmer bought the land, the equipment, and created the farm. They are rewarded for that hard work.

FYI, I am not a plant manager. I earn my income because I put myself through college and learned the skills that make me marketable. I have worked seasonal jobs, mowed lawns, fast food, security, and I make my money now by using my mind to make better machines to replace the past with the future. I suggest you teach your children that hard work is not bad, but if you don't invest in yourself, you may not have the future you want.

Jim@BAWS
09-24-2007, 09:30 PM
"When a company turns profits, all we union workers want is our share of the profits"

What do you do if there is NO PROFIT...still demand? Workers are no the one taking the risks. 9-5 is all they have to worry about 9-5!!! Unions have there place. Employees deserve protection. Business owners carry ALL the risk. If an employee is a good one keep um and pay um. This BS about deserving EXTRA pay just because they FEEL they derserve it is PURE BS. $75 K for putting nuts on bolts is redicolous. If GM and all the big three really paid some of those workers what they are REALLY worth the price of cars would drop by a 1/3rd

KY Larry
09-24-2007, 10:18 PM
75K for putting on nuts and bolts??

This is not accurate. Although salary compensation is good, 75K can ONLY be made if a worker trades his time for labor in the way of a LOT of Overtime. How can he make so much? Because the product he is building is selling. Even with a lot of OT, 75K is not accurate.

Our management get WELL DESERVED bonuses. Can we have a slice of the pie, or are we just bodies that have not been replaced by robots yet?
Overseas, and labor not protected by unions, are simply fired and replaced with another body to wear out.

We are people. People that you cannot do without. You cannot make your profits without us. You cannot sell them in other countries. They are too high, correct?? Let us make a little, and we will support and grow the US economy. The middle class is the backbone of America.

tones03
09-24-2007, 10:50 PM
I respect your position and I respect your post. My off the cuff to me comments about the cold were the two sides might be in for a battle but I doubt it.

Let me ask you: During contract negotiations ( I am in now for 2008) Has your life ever been threatened? Have you had people throw roofing nails in your driveway where your children play over 10cents per hour? Anyone ever spit in your face simply because they believe what the local office feeds them without simple deduction? Have you ever had a business agent shake his fist in your face because you ask them to bear a portion of the skyrocketing health care coats?

**** no you haven't. You want it just like it was before when times were good, you earned a great living and never busted your *** one day (at least in our case, I don't know you and I 'm speaking in general terms)

The fact of the matter is most of these UAW guys are not very well educated, have little or no skills and and are scared to death. I don't blame them. I have a stack of applications in my office from people who are assemblers with no high school diploma and 25 years at Electrolux. What do you think they want for a starting wage? 15-19 per hour with essentially zero skills.

You can say what you want but when you pay a guy $19 per hour to place a platic rack in a refrigerator you are either a ticking time bomb or you are nieve. In either case you are soon to be unemployed.

My negativity is based upn the above ans the fact that many of these people still walk in my door, don't look you in the eye, don't speak well and STILL EXPECT TO START TOMORROW.

Let your conscience be your guide if you feel like you are earning a good living for a good days pay then so be it. But if you are making 50-75K for putting a bolt in a tapped hole then you had beeter be saving your nickels.

Lastly, I think your position may be different than that in the state of Michigan. Buncha greedy ****ers up here....

Very well said Steve, very well said.

victorff
09-25-2007, 12:27 AM
I work for NUMMI wich is Toyota/GM owned. We are covered undar the UAW contract. Does that make me an OXY or a MORON!!! Obviously the misspelling is intentional. Unfortunately there is a mis conception of union and autoworkers in general. There is more to the job than putting a bolt in a threaded hole. For those of you who think that the high price of vehicles is caused by labor cost you are way off the mark. You forget about the cost of R&d, utilities, materials,,,,etc. The labor cost is a very small percentage of the cost of a car. From I understand the UAW is actually giving up alot to insure a future.

PendO
09-25-2007, 12:40 AM
........................

milkmania
09-25-2007, 12:44 AM
Like Toyota needs any help:noface:

went to the Arkansas/Oklahoma state fair the other night in Fort Smith, Arkansas.......

the ONLY vehicles displayed were Toyota!

KY Larry
09-25-2007, 01:07 AM
Thanks Victorff. We need more replies from folks like you.

Maristar210
09-25-2007, 08:24 AM
I have read the blogs:

http://forums.detnews.com/autostalk/lettersindex.cfm?CFID=8350190&CFTOKEN=95170497

Whichever side you may be on its a good read. Some of the response from the union people are laughable in that theyz dunt wrote seo gewd..... but still a good read.

Of course thier worth $25 per hour, of course they are, probably more....

Ric
09-25-2007, 08:47 AM
Rat, there are some pretty big named plants hiring round here if those guys are unhappy.

This is going to get messy but here it goes



The chemical plant I work in had a strong union for many years and it has been good for us salary folks. Kept our wages up, and good benefits coming our way. NO we donít make 75k base pay but with our OT we can live a good life. Now 5 years ago the company broke the union, they got prepared, drove them out on strike, and then starved them back in. I canít complain too much because it was my job to help. After 3 years things started going down hill. Everyone that has been hired the last 2 years has not had the benefit of a retirement, everyone that will be hired after Jan. 1st will not get a retirement or medical 0. We are now some of the lowest paid employees in the area. But if you look at our company financial report every year the big dogs are raking in millions and it keeps getting bigger every year. It appears that they are taking money out of our pocket and putting it in theirs. Where do you think the money will come from when the working hands are to broke to buy the new cars that they build. I guess they will have to just sell them to Plant Managers and Rock Stars. Yes Unions have problems but they also have benefits as well. These people have families and wishing them out in the cold is chitty, even for a plant manager.

I know nothing of the issues facing these guys and these comments are based only on my experience in my little corner of the world



And that is all I have to say about that

jbfootin
09-25-2007, 10:24 AM
I think that the Union served it's purpose in the past, and in some situations today, but in many cases today greed takes over. In the case of River Rat, management got greedy and maybe they need a union or at least a wake up call, but, in the union shops I have been involved with if the union is strong they get greedy. They protect poor workers from being fired, don't help the good workers advance, and cause the good workers to stop caring and slow down.

My wife worked at Harley as summer help in college, and at 1:00, her second day, she was told to sit down and stop working because she met her quota. Yet she had to work every Saturday and Sunday because they were so far behind. This was 14 years ago and she made $17/hr and 1-1/2 on Sat and 2X on Sunday so the money was good. I just punched the #s and she was making over $60k a year as summer help 14 years ago! No wonder they are expensive!

In shops that the union is not as powerful, it keeps the power balanced between the shop and management, but rarely are the benifits enough to justify the dues.

Just my opinion

captain planet
09-25-2007, 10:46 AM
This is going to get messy but here it goes



The chemical plant I work in had a strong union for many years and it has been good for us salary folks. Kept our wages up, and good benefits coming our way. NO we donít make 75k base pay but with our OT we can live a good life. Now 5 years ago the company broke the union, they got prepared, drove them out on strike, and then starved them back in. I canít complain too much because it was my job to help. After 3 years things started going down hill. Everyone that has been hired the last 2 years has not had the benefit of a retirement, everyone that will be hired after Jan. 1st will not get a retirement or medical 0. We are now some of the lowest paid employees in the area. But if you look at our company financial report every year the big dogs are raking in millions and it keeps getting bigger every year. It appears that they are taking money out of our pocket and putting it in theirs. Where do you think the money will come from when the working hands are to broke to buy the new cars that they build. I guess they will have to just sell them to Plant Managers and Rock Stars. Yes Unions have problems but they also have benefits as well. These people have families and wishing them out in the cold is chitty, even for a plant manager.

I know nothing of the issues facing these guys and these comments are based only on my experience in my little corner of the world



And that is all I have to say about that
Great post River Rat. Your tale about the big dogs is not an isolated case. To get a good picture of what is going on in America right now (and for the last 20 years or so) I would suggest reading 'Hostile Takeover' by David Sirota. Good book. Really makes you mad to see what the corporate slime of this country are doing to make a buck (actually millions of bucks). My :twocents:

BrianM
09-25-2007, 11:03 AM
For those of you who think that the high price of vehicles is caused by labor cost you are way off the mark. You forget about the cost of R&d, utilities, materials,,,,etc. The labor cost is a very small percentage of the cost of a car. .
Hmmm...I beg to differ. High labor costs is a huge part of it. The number that I hear reported from multiple sources is that just the healthcare costs of those retired from GM add $1500 to the cost of every vehicle they build.

Maristar210
09-25-2007, 12:17 PM
Hey I have to have my 6000 calories a day you know????http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/Steves389/strike.jpg

Granite_33
09-25-2007, 01:03 PM
I have a stack of applications in my office from people who are assemblers with no high school diploma and 25 years at Electrolux. What do you think they want for a starting wage? 15-19 per hour with essentially zero skills.

You can say what you want but when you pay a guy $19 per hour to place a platic rack in a refrigerator you are either a ticking time bomb or you are nieve. In either case you are soon to be unemployed.


Electrolux is now in Juarez, Mex, paying the plastic rack put inner $2.50/hr with minimal benefits.

Maristar210
09-25-2007, 01:06 PM
Electrolux is now in Juarez, Mex, paying the plastic rack put inner $2.50/hr with minimal benefits.


Yes, I know. What's worse is they paid the employees here to go down there and train the Mexicans. Talk about a kick in the B*lls

bigmac
09-25-2007, 01:52 PM
Electrolux is now in Juarez, Mex, paying the plastic rack put inner $2.50/hr with minimal benefits.


And at that pay rate, that guy is one of the richest men in Juarez.

jenglin
09-25-2007, 05:28 PM
I will agree that unions had there place at one time, however I believe that time has now expired. I live in the area where John Deere tractors are made and when the going is good, the John Deere employees are buying new things like crazy, however when things go bad everything they have is for sale. People don't think enough of the future and what it could bring, they just live in the moment and spend every dime they make. This is sad however that is our society. This country is filled with people who want something for nothing. Everyone makes choices in life, if that choice is to work in a factory or in a bank that's their choice, but they made that choice. There are too many people out there that are afraid of hard work.

For those of you that hate Toyota's how many of there vehicles are made in the USA. This is a foreign company giving Americans jobs.

On a side note: When I was in college I took a coures where they taught a Japanese methodology of management. It was a very interesting class. One example I found interesting was that in the 80's John Deere employeed 15,000+ and after they implemented this new management methodology they were able to produce more product with a fraction of the employees (3,500). That is amazing.

Ric
09-25-2007, 05:31 PM
Guys Guys Guyssssss! A critter in every pot, okay? Geeeeez

1boarder
09-25-2007, 06:07 PM
The funny thing about japanese management is that it come from the US a long time ago. I forgot the guys name that revolutionized japanese philosophy on how to produce goods, but someone on here may know.

Ric
09-25-2007, 06:16 PM
The funny thing about japanese management is that it come from the US a long time ago. I forgot the guys name that revolutionized japanese philosophy on how to produce goods, but someone on here may know. Michael Keaton .

Upper Michigan Prostar190
09-25-2007, 07:13 PM
Michael Keaton .
were having rots of raughs!

Granite_33
09-25-2007, 09:47 PM
And at that pay rate, that guy is one of the richest men in Juarez.


you would think that with all the manufacturing down there, the quality of life would improve for the hourly worker in Juarez, relatively speaking.

Every time I go there though the only nice areas I see are the ones maintained by the manufacturers.

Leroy
09-25-2007, 09:56 PM
Mexico seems to have a government that is so self serving and corrupt. Quality of life has improved little there. Even with salary increases.

Exactly oppose in Asian countries where the governments invest in their country and people.

Taiwan used to be the cheapest, unclean country, 20 years ago when I started going there, now the island is full of luxury cars and they are "outsourcing" so much to China for lower wages.

you would think that with all the manufacturing down there, the quality of life would improve for the hourly worker in Juarez, relatively speaking.

Every time I go there though the only nice areas I see are the ones maintained by the manufacturers.

Granite_33
09-25-2007, 10:16 PM
Mexico seems to have a government that is so self serving and corrupt. Quality of life has improved little there. Even with salary increases.

Exactly oppose in Asian countries where the governments invest in their country and people.

Taiwan used to be the cheapest, unclean country, 20 years ago when I started going there, now the island is full of luxury cars and they are "outsourcing" so much to China for lower wages.


Tru Dat. Mexican cops usually take me for $20 every other time I go down there. Obviously they have radar in their eyes and brains....how else would you explain the fact that I am always 10 miles over the speed limit:rolleyes:

Granite_33
09-25-2007, 10:19 PM
Hmmm...I beg to differ. High labor costs is a huge part of it. The number that I hear reported from multiple sources is that just the healthcare costs of those retired from GM add $1500 to the cost of every vehicle they build.


I have read the same thing.

Foreign plants are not saddled with that, although I have heard that hourly wages are similar.

wgwollet
09-25-2007, 10:32 PM
Boy, don't get me going on this one.....

I have two stories.... I was a union UAW worker for 7 years....then got a ME engineering degree and was salary both with "Generous Motors" for 10 years the union guys had the "potential" not all; to make way over $75k. Union skilled trades at our plant made over 100k easy on OT and the work was very easy; more so on OT. For me much less and alot of Bull from Union people.

Then GM gave all the workers with up to 26 years a great pension like $3,150 month plus health care,,,,,mine with the same time will be about $700. The good news for me is my education and I can go else where; and me and many are doing just that.

No question the biggies get richer and lowly union and salary folk get screwed. But I am done with GM and am going to another company where as a engineer I can get more salary.....our pension is frozen and its now over for the American auto industry......long story, I won't even buy their products any longer because for me I think for my money its better spent somewhere else.....I don't want the pity party just the Union and GM deserve each other....GTH

H20skeefreek
09-25-2007, 10:41 PM
The funny thing about japanese management is that it come from the US a long time ago. I forgot the guys name that revolutionized japanese philosophy on how to produce goods, but someone on here may know.
Deming created it, Michael Keaton improved it.

victorff
09-25-2007, 10:42 PM
$1500 to take care of legacy cost is still a very small percentage when the average car is $28,000. Not to mention the UAW understands the problem and is working with GM, Ford and Chrysler to eleminate this cost.

tones03
09-25-2007, 10:52 PM
[QUOTE=long story, I won't even buy their products any longer because for me I think for my money its better spent somewhere else.....I don't want the pity party just the Union and GM deserve each other....GTH[/QUOTE]

I agreed with you up until this point. Having worked for GM i would expect you to know how important every sale is. I would never ask some one to buy GM out of pity but I feel that GM's product is just as good if not better then the competitors in most markets.

Union thing is another story. They need to do what they need to do. I hope GM stands their ground and says we can not keep on giving in. If I pay 27% of my health care for the crappy stuff, why cant they pay that for the best stuff there is? Some one posted that cars can not be built with out them (UAW) and if they think that then that is where they can go wrong. Everyone can be replaced, including us with degrees. I deal with those people every day coming over from Asia learning our work so they can do it for us.

Do what you have to and feel the way you want, but this strike is not going to help any one, it will just hurt everyone!

tones03
09-25-2007, 10:54 PM
Victor, you know what $1500 per vehicle would add up to if you could put that into R&D or other things it is also $1500 across the board. that much for a $15000 cobalt is huge. Every amount is huge in this type of market.

Leroy
09-25-2007, 10:57 PM
Glad you are able to pick up and move on. I worked for RCA for 23 years, once a technology and engineering gaint to work for but they could not make hard decisions until someone made it for them. There is nothing left of this company. I've been with JDSU for 1 year now and loving work again. There are a lot of opportunities out there.

I don't think there is one person smart enough or strong enough in the automotive industry to make the right decisions there either. Such hatred from mgt and workers they are willing to strike. If they are offering buyouts to another 100k employees soon you know they are going down. I hope they can find a "Bill Gates of Detroit" to make each automotive company strong again.

Boy, don't get me going on this one.....

I have two stories.... I was a union UAW worker for 7 years....then got a ME engineering degree and was salary both with "Generous Motors" for 10 years the union guys had the "potential" not all; to make way over $75k. Union skilled trades at our plant made over 100k easy on OT and the work was very easy; more so on OT. For me much less and alot of Bull from Union people.

Then GM gave all the workers with up to 26 years a great pension like $3,150 month plus health care,,,,,mine with the same time will be about $700. The good news for me is my education and I can go else where; and me and many are doing just that.

No question the biggies get richer and lowly union and salary folk get screwed. But I am done with GM and am going to another company where as a engineer I can get more salary.....our pension is frozen and its now over for the American auto industry......long story, I won't even buy their products any longer because for me I think for my money its better spent somewhere else.....I don't want the pity party just the Union and GM deserve each other....GTH

Leroy
09-25-2007, 11:01 PM
We had that routine down also. How about the "your paper work is out of order" going across the border when the rules would change every time you went!

Only place in the world I have seen such open and blatent bribery and this was the cops and border patrol....moving up the bribery ladder, getting a new plant build there really took a lot of money and so did keeping it running safely.

Tru Dat. Mexican cops usually take me for $20 every other time I go down there. Obviously they have radar in their eyes and brains....how else would you explain the fact that I am always 10 miles over the speed limit:rolleyes:

victorff
09-25-2007, 11:18 PM
Victor, you know what $1500 per vehicle would add up to if you could put that into R&D or other things it is also $1500 across the board. that much for a $15000 cobalt is huge. Every amount is huge in this type of market.

Good point.

Maristar210
09-26-2007, 05:20 AM
Tenative agreement reached at 3:00AM today.....

TMCNo1
09-26-2007, 06:09 AM
Michael Keaton .


I thought Al Gore did that and invented the internet too!

Ric
09-26-2007, 08:35 AM
I thought Al Gore did that and invented the internet too!yes and the paperwork reduction act :rolleyes:





FYI #1, they never meant toilet paper when they wrote that bill, ok?

tones03
09-26-2007, 08:42 AM
Good news, I already know of numerous suppliers that were laying off all their workers because of the strike. I wonder what the details are.

Maristar210
09-26-2007, 09:02 AM
[SIZE="4"]Highlights of the deal



Among the highlights of the tentative UAW-GM agreement announced today:

Trust fund for retire health care: GM would pay the union cents on the dollar to take over $50 billion in retiree health obligations. The GM infusion will go into a voluntary employees' beneficiary association, or VEBA, that the UAW said will cover health care benefits for GM retirees, now numbering 400,000, for the next 80 years.

A two-tier wage structure for non-manufacturing jobs: This would allow GM to pay wages as low as $12 to $15 a hour for jobs not directly related to building an automobile, such as housekeeping, security and janitorial work. The new wage structure would apply to new hires, not current workers.

Cash bonuses, to help win ratification of a contract. The payments would be $3,000 to start, followed by three years of lump-sum payments roughly equal to 3 percent of annual wages.

Jobs bank changes: Modifications to the controversial program, in which laid-off workers receive pay and benefits, will expand the geographic area in which workers would be required to take a new job if one is available. Under current rules, workers are allowed to remain off the job and in the bank unless there's an opening within 50 miles of their old job.

Job security: UAW President Ron Gettelfinger said the union "got the job security guarantees we were looking for," but did not offer specifics. The UAW was pushing GM to make specific commitments to invest in U.S. facilities and build future products here.

Ric
09-26-2007, 09:04 AM
heheheh Union leaders in control of retiree health care? think we'll hear about that debacle on the news ever?:rolleyes:



oh well at least they will still be building trucks, I need a new 1500HD in the next year or so

tones03
09-26-2007, 09:08 AM
Thanks Steve!

Granite_33
09-26-2007, 10:25 AM
Victor, you know what $1500 per vehicle would add up to if you could put that into R&D or other things it is also $1500 across the board. that much for a $15000 cobalt is huge. Every amount is huge in this type of market.


$1500 per auto is big, when you multiply that times the number of cars sold. Don't look at it as a % of selling price. But as a % of gross profit.

Granite_33
09-26-2007, 10:27 AM
heheheh Union leaders in control of retiree health care? think we'll hear about that debacle on the news ever?:rolleyes:

One step better than our government taking care of healthcare. At some point in time in the future...........the unions will declare bankruptcy of the fund and ask the marginal 3 to ante up again.

tones03
09-26-2007, 10:30 AM
I am wondering what will happen when that money runs out. If it is like the Delphi thing where GM has to bail them out, or if it is here is a sh!t ton of money and wash their hands of it. I hope it is the second one and not some safety net because that will come back to bite them for sure.

Ric
09-26-2007, 10:35 AM
I like that... "Marginal Three"

Upper Michigan Prostar190
09-26-2007, 10:52 AM
oh well at least they will still be building trucks, I need a new 1500HD in the next year or so
Hey Motorhead, they dont build the 1500HD anymore! :rolleyes:

tones03
09-26-2007, 10:54 AM
Hey Motorhead, they dont build the 1500HD anymore! :rolleyes:

I think he miss spoke;) . He needs a new Vortec MAXX truck soon...or a Duramax!! :D

Upper Michigan Prostar190
09-26-2007, 11:05 AM
I think he miss spoke;) . He needs a new Vortec MAXX truck soon...or a Duramax!! :D
I already told him not to screw around with any whimpy trucks like that, he should get one of those conversion kodiaks to tow his boat. :D

Upper Michigan Prostar190
09-26-2007, 11:06 AM
I think he miss spoke;) . He needs a new Vortec MAXX truck soon...or a Duramax!! :D
actually, I dont think he miss spoke, he has a "thing" for 1500HDs. its sort of an infatuation, like the garage thing.

tones03
09-26-2007, 11:14 AM
Prolly right UMP....

Ric
09-26-2007, 11:51 AM
I Want My 1500hd !!!!!!


(in The Nbs)

Upper Michigan Prostar190
09-26-2007, 01:04 PM
I Want My 1500hd !!!!!!


(in The Nbs)
Well, your going to have to scour the junkyards and Herb Tarlek used card lots for one my friend, cuz they AINT making them anymore.

River Rat
09-26-2007, 01:13 PM
With all the stock piling they did now may be the time to buy:D

Ric
09-26-2007, 01:25 PM
Well, your going to have to scour the junkyards and Herb Tarlek used card lots for one my friend, cuz they AINT making them anymore. ya know....... tones mentioned the vortec maxx... but it would appear to me that the crew version of the vortech maxx still has the little 1500crew bed like the z71 crews I don't like

Maristar210
09-26-2007, 02:05 PM
ya know....... tones mentioned the vortec maxx... but it would appear to me that the crew version of the vortech maxx still has the little 1500crew bed like the z71 crews I don't like


Bull**** Flag, fifteen yards

Ric
09-26-2007, 02:06 PM
Bull**** Flag, fifteen yards I May need to put you on my block list for a few hours

MIMC
09-26-2007, 02:34 PM
Ric -

You probably already know this, but..........the 1500HD was an 8600 GVW 2500 w/ the 6.0 and the 4L80E trans but with a 1500HD badge (tons of torque, bad mpg). It was a 3/4 ton truck with a 1500 badge - GM marketing. Also, GM did quit making it back in 2005(maybe 2006). Today GM offers three bed lengths in the "true" 1500 line up. You can get a 5' 8" box, 6' 6" box, or a 8' box. If you want a "true" 1500 crew cab your only box choice is the 5' 8" (short-short). I'm with you, I would like a "true" 1500 crew cab with the 6' 6" box, but GM technically will not be able to make it - GVW restrictions and other notorious government regulations. The Vortex Maxx is a sweet package, with DOD (displacement on demand) not uncommon to see 20 mpg on the highway at 65 mph. Just a little info for ya! :)

Thanks - MIMC

Ric
09-26-2007, 02:47 PM
Ric -

You probably already know this, but..........the 1500HD was an 8600 GVW 2500 w/ the 6.0 and the 4L80E trans but with a 1500HD badge (tons of torque, bad mpg). It was a 3/4 ton truck with a 1500 badge - GM marketing. Also, GM did quit making it back in 2005(maybe 2006). Today GM offers three bed lengths in the "true" 1500 line up. You can get a 5' 8" box, 6' 6" box, or a 8' box. If you want a "true" 1500 crew cab your only box choice is the 5' 8" (short-short). I'm with you, I would like a "true" 1500 crew cab with the 6' 6" box, but GM technically will not be able to make it - GVW restrictions and other notorious government regulations. The Vortex Maxx is a sweet package, with DOD (displacement on demand) not uncommon to see 20 mpg on the highway at 65 mph. Just a little info for ya! :)

Thanks - MIMC I was afraid someone would tell me that

Maristar210
09-26-2007, 03:35 PM
I May need to put you on my block list for a few hours


Don't tease me

Upper Michigan Prostar190
09-26-2007, 03:41 PM
I was afraid someone would tell me that
I have told you that repeated times. It just took someone else to tell you so you accepted it. deal with it. the 1500HD is H-i-s-t-o-r-y. It was in 2006. MIMC speaks fact.


and stop teasing staristar.

Ric
09-26-2007, 03:45 PM
ump I can get an 07 1500HD classic today. your lack of knowlege has affected my hearing

Upper Michigan Prostar190
09-26-2007, 03:47 PM
ump I can get an 07 1500HD classic today. your lack of knowlege has affected my hearing
I pity any dealer that still has any 07 classic models in stock. you better check and see if they have mold growing on it. it could promote rust, dontchano. what are the rebates on the 07 classics in your DMA? and there are NO 1500HD classics in 2007 model year. 06 was the last year for them.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
09-26-2007, 03:49 PM
Ric -

You probably already know this, but..........the 1500HD was an 8600 GVW 2500 w/ the 6.0 and the 4L80E trans but with a 1500HD badge (tons of torque, bad mpg). It was a 3/4 ton truck with a 1500 badge - GM marketing. Also, GM did quit making it back in 2005(maybe 2006). Today GM offers three bed lengths in the "true" 1500 line up. You can get a 5' 8" box, 6' 6" box, or a 8' box. If you want a "true" 1500 crew cab your only box choice is the 5' 8" (short-short). I'm with you, I would like a "true" 1500 crew cab with the 6' 6" box, but GM technically will not be able to make it - GVW restrictions and other notorious government regulations. The Vortex Maxx is a sweet package, with DOD (displacement on demand) not uncommon to see 20 mpg on the highway at 65 mph. Just a little info for ya! :)

Thanks - MIMC

Hey Ric, did you read that part or miss it????

Ric
09-26-2007, 03:54 PM
I pity any dealer that still has any 07 classic models in stock. you better check and see if they have mold growing on it. it could promote rust, dontchano. what are the rebates on the 07 classics in your DMA? and there are NO 1500HD classics in 2007 model year. 06 was the last year for them.

Ump don't you work for a GM dealer?

2007 SILVERADO CLASSIC MODELS (http://www.chevrolet.com/silveradoclassic/#silveradoclassic-1500hd)








.

Ric
09-26-2007, 04:02 PM
maybe the web designers went on strike

wgwollet
09-26-2007, 04:15 PM
I agreed with you up until this point. Having worked for GM i would expect you to know how important every sale is. I would never ask some one to buy GM out of pity but I feel that GM's product is just as good if not better then the competitors in most markets.

Union thing is another story. They need to do what they need to do. I hope GM stands their ground and says we can not keep on giving in. If I pay 27% of my health care for the crappy stuff, why cant they pay that for the best stuff there is? Some one posted that cars can not be built with out them (UAW) and if they think that then that is where they can go wrong. Everyone can be replaced, including us with degrees. I deal with those people every day coming over from Asia learning our work so they can do it for us.

Do what you have to and feel the way you want, but this strike is not going to help any one, it will just hurt everyone!

No, I have been misunderstood.....not a pity party for GM for me...as far as GM cars and trucks...the argument is forever.......but I will not buy their products because I like other vehicles better....that's all...

Upper Michigan Prostar190
09-26-2007, 04:24 PM
Ump don't you work for a GM dealer?

2007 SILVERADO CLASSIC MODELS (http://www.chevrolet.com/silveradoclassic/#silveradoclassic-1500hd)


.

Wow, they need to update their website.

wgwollet
09-26-2007, 04:26 PM
Again, what a bunch of crap......no change in health care (just a different owner), still have jobs bank, lower wages for new people (that's too late) ,,,,,,bottom line is GM will fail,,,,,too much cost...now don't misundertand me...all industries in the US went the same way.....how can a company support 400,000 retired workers with only 73,000 working.....should retires be taken care of ? yes....but the industry is gone over seas and the only company that can support these kind of numbers is good old Uncle Sam...

Upper Michigan Prostar190
09-26-2007, 04:37 PM
Again, what a bunch of crap......no change in health care (just a different owner), still have jobs bank, lower wages for new people (that's too late) ,,,,,,bottom line is GM will fail,,,,,too much cost...now don't misundertand me...all industries in the US went the same way.....how can a company support 400,000 retired workers with only 73,000 working.....should retires be taken care of ? yes....but the industry is gone over seas and the only company that can support these kind of numbers is good old Uncle Sam...
Its all because of the 1500HD. the totally screwed themselves with that one.

Ric
09-26-2007, 04:43 PM
Wow, they need to update their website. sure sure :noface:

Ric
09-26-2007, 05:16 PM
Wow, they need to update their website. seriously ump................................. what do you do over there all day?

Ric
09-26-2007, 05:17 PM
Again, what a bunch of crap......no change in health care (just a different owner), still have jobs bank, lower wages for new people (that's too late) ... that's basically what I was sayin... I am picturing the sopranos running retiree healthcare and taking care of the earners

Maristar210
09-26-2007, 06:12 PM
seriously ump................................. what do you do over there all day?
You have a lot of balls throwing that one out there Mr. 11268 posts8p 8p

Ric
09-26-2007, 06:44 PM
I know my stuff though

Ric
09-26-2007, 06:48 PM
I pity any dealer that still has any 07 classic models in stock. you better check and see if they have mold growing on it. it could promote rust, dontchano. what are the rebates on the 07 classics in your DMA? and there are NO 1500HD classics in 2007 model year. 06 was the last year for them. for real ?

Maristar210
09-26-2007, 06:49 PM
for real ?

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Leroy
09-26-2007, 07:12 PM
Good luck UAW on that one. Without knowing the whole plan I'm afraid to guess how this will be in 3-5 years. Too assume a stable enviroment would be risky with Chinese cars launching next year.

Again, what a bunch of crap......no change in health care (just a different owner), still have jobs bank, lower wages for new people (that's too late) ,,,,,,bottom line is GM will fail,,,,,too much cost...now don't misundertand me...all industries in the US went the same way.....how can a company support 400,000 retired workers with only 73,000 working.....should retires be taken care of ? yes....but the industry is gone over seas and the only company that can support these kind of numbers is good old Uncle Sam...

Farmer Ted
09-26-2007, 08:00 PM
And at that pay rate, that guy is one of the richest men in Juarez.


wait 'til he joins the Union.............

Farmer Ted
09-26-2007, 08:05 PM
The funny thing about japanese management is that it come from the US a long time ago. I forgot the guys name that revolutionized japanese philosophy on how to produce goods, but someone on here may know.


wasn't it Demming or something like that?

H20skeefreek
09-26-2007, 08:13 PM
wasn't it Demming or something like that?
Yes it was Demming.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
09-26-2007, 08:36 PM
Well, they could have avoided this entire mess if they hadnt of came out with that 1500HD. :noface:

Ric
09-27-2007, 10:59 AM
Well, they could have avoided this entire mess if they hadnt of came out with that 1500HD. :noface: so chUMP, did they offer a 2007 1500HD classic or was the largest company in the world's website just wrong........?

Maristar210
09-27-2007, 11:11 AM
so chUMP, did they offer a 2007 1500HD classic or was the largest company in the world's website just wrong........?

Damn dude ... let it go...

Ric
09-27-2007, 11:41 AM
Damn dude ... let it go... I've GOT to know

Upper Michigan Prostar190
09-27-2007, 01:59 PM
so chUMP, did they offer a 2007 1500HD classic or was the largest company in the world's website just wrong........?

I aint tellin'. that would spoil the fun.

Ric
09-27-2007, 02:53 PM
I aint tellin'. that would spoil the fun. You already "told" :noface:

MIMC
09-27-2007, 03:36 PM
Ric, UMP, Maristar -

I probably should know better then to continue adding to this thread, however......I'm a guy (we ain't that smrt, I mean smart - according to another thread currently circulating). :o

All GMT800 "Silverado Classics" including the 1500 HD seized production on 12-15-2006 - fact! In fact the 1500HD seized production sooner than that because it was built at a plant that quit building prior to 12-15-06. The reason why the "Silverdao Classic" is still on the Chevy website is because there are some dealers that still have a slight amount of inventory. Once the inventory falls below a certain percentage the site will be updated and the "Silverado Classic" will be removed. Just for your info - there are no 1500HD's in MI - already checked. Your chances of finding a new 1500HD are slim because those were mostly customer orders, not many were ordered for dealer inventory! Sorry for the bad news (or good depending who you are) - but I felt I had to do something to kill this thread since I gave it new life with my comment from yesterday! :D

1500HD R.I.P. :cry:

Ric
09-28-2007, 09:51 AM
Ric, UMP, Maristar -

I probably should know better then to continue adding to this thread, however......I'm a guy (we ain't that smrt, I mean smart - according to another thread currently circulating).

All GMT800 "Silverado Classics" including the 1500 HD seized production on 12-15-2006 - fact! In fact the 1500HD seized production sooner than that because it was built at a plant that quit building prior to 12-15-06. The reason why the "Silverdao Classic" is still on the Chevy website is because there are some dealers that still have a slight amount of inventory. Once the inventory falls below a certain percentage the site will be updated and the "Silverado Classic" will be removed. Just for your info - there are no 1500HD's in MI - already checked. Your chances of finding a new 1500HD are slim because those were mostly customer orders, not many were ordered for dealer inventory! Sorry for the bad news (or good depending who you are) - but I felt I had to do something to kill this thread since I gave it new life with my comment from yesterday!

1500HD R.I.P. Thank you sir, that appears to be real bad news for me.

I sound like a broken record, but the 1500HD was never really marketed.. I accidentally found one on a dealer lot in late 01 when I was trading a 5.3LZ71 and fell in love with the setup.

I am no market research scientist, but if nobody knows about your product, how in the world can you sell it?
Hey let's drop the 1500HD when we go to the new platform... nobody buys it anyway.. Who needs a 6.0 8600GVWR anyway :noface:
somebody earlier mentioned that GM is finished... between pandering to unions and dealing with every acronym known to modern man and designing Trucks that are targeted more for algore and moms, I tend to agree :noface:

Maristar210
09-28-2007, 10:01 AM
Ric,

You have issues.

Ric
09-28-2007, 10:02 AM
Ric,

You have issues. Damn right .