PDA

View Full Version : Columbia University invites terrorist to speak...


bigmac
09-23-2007, 04:04 PM
Bear in mind, this is a university that bans ROTC and military recruiters from campus, and they invite Ahmadinejad to speak, someone who has contributed to more US deaths in Iraq than Saddam Hussein. Someone who says Israel should be "wiped off the map", and who has rockets that can reach Israel, and not that far from being able to put nuclear weapons on them.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/09/23/us.iran.ap/index.html

No way I could bring myself to write a tuition check for my kid to go to that school.

TMCNo1
09-23-2007, 04:40 PM
I saw that on the news on the major networks yesterday and this morning. I just don't get it, they are just asking for trouble, it could get ugly, IMO.

92 190 PS
09-23-2007, 05:07 PM
Here you go. President of Columbia says he'd invite Hitler to speak.....Need I say more?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxmEGsOkEVc

CBergerson
09-23-2007, 05:18 PM
Bear in mind, this is a university that bans ROTC and military recruiters from campus, and they invite Ahmadinejad to speak, someone who has contributed to more US deaths in Iraq than Saddam Hussein. Someone who says Israel should be "wiped off the map", and who has rockets that can reach Israel, and not that far from being able to put nuclear weapons on them.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/09/23/us.iran.ap/index.html

No way I could bring myself to write a tuition check for my kid to go to that school.

So, the same government and media establishment that lied/mislead us into Iraq have how much credibility when it comes to Iran?

bigmac
09-23-2007, 05:43 PM
Iran's weaponry and nuclear program are well-documented by the international community, including admissions by Ahmadinejad himself that they have been enriching uranium. And the 800 mile capability of their Shahab-3 ballistic missile is likewise well-documented in the international press. This stuff was even front-page news in that left-wing rag, the New York Times, who is unlikely to be part of the Bush/media conspiracy you're imagining. Additionally, attempts at curtailing Iran's nuclear weapons program have been spearheaded by the French and Germans through the IAEA, where the US has notoriously little influence, since about 2002.

So, you're thinking that Iran's self-admitted nuclear danger to Israel and the rest of the world are conspiratorial fabrications by President Bush and his lackey media? France is part of it too? Germany? Iran itself?

Are those black helicopters I see hovering over your house? ;)

Farmer Ted
09-23-2007, 05:54 PM
So, the same government and media establishment that lied/mislead us into Iraq have how much credibility when it comes to Iran?


What was the lie and how were you misled?

Do you have evidence that you were lied to or misled?

Who told you that your were lied to or misled?

Bruce
09-23-2007, 07:56 PM
Mac & Ted well stated! Probably more diplomatic than I would have responded. glad I didn't have to get all worked up!

atlfootr
09-23-2007, 08:24 PM
Thank GOD I'm NOT A STUDENT there ...
Cause if I were, all HELL would break lose :mad:

TheOneandOnly
09-23-2007, 09:14 PM
It would be nice to see someone in the audience stop his speach

dmayer84
09-23-2007, 09:18 PM
I think it would be interesting to watch, maybe another student will get tasered for going crazy with some ridiculous questions. :rolleyes:

BriEOD
09-23-2007, 09:27 PM
Don't forget Mr. A also said the holacaust did not happen.

Well, say what you want about U.S. force in Iraq. The boys in green are just following orders so take it out on the politicians (including all the Dems who voted to go to war). What is clear and factual is Iran is flooding explosively formed penetrators (EFPs) (an IED) which are killing our guys daily. Iran being predominanatly Shia has a vested strategic interest in ensuring Iraq, which is now Shia dominated, models there government. Google Basra and read about how conservative Islam is sweeping the region much like 1979 in Iran.

I don't blame Iran for wanting nukes or to have their hand in Iraq. We would do the same. However, both of the aforementioned issues effect our strategic issues in the region. I'm American and not Iranian.

BTW, I cannot believe he is coming to the US.

3event
09-23-2007, 09:46 PM
Fox news reports that only days ago, Columbia retracted an invitation for the leader of the Minutemen to speak. "Selective free speech" about sums it up.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,297748,00.html

Whatever happens, I would like to see a post-speech youtube video with a soundtrack dropped in so that we can see and hear Mr. A say the now famous words himself: "DON'T TASE ME BRO".

Ridiculous.:mad:

shepherd
09-23-2007, 10:38 PM
Why hide your heads in the sand? Let the guy come and talk. Hopefully, he'll make a fool of himself. Hopefully, someone will ask the tough questions. Hopefully, someone will... :rolleyes:

JBaker
09-24-2007, 02:15 AM
Why hide your heads in the sand? Let the guy come and talk. Hopefully, he'll make a fool of himself. Hopefully, someone will ask the tough questions. Hopefully, someone will... :rolleyes:

There are many reasons why future leaders of America would benefit from hearing him speak even if he doesn't make a fool out of himself. I'm not exactly sure what would be the harm in allowing students to hear his views. It's not like they are hiring him to teach a course.

And in regards to Hitler, perhaps a lot of the holocaust and WWII could have been avoided if we hadn't had our head in the sand then. Imagine if he had spoke at a major American university in the 1930's during his rise to power...just food for thought.

03 35th Anniversary
09-24-2007, 04:39 AM
Bear in mind, this is a university that bans ROTC and military recruiters from campus, and they invite Ahmadinejad to speak, someone who has contributed to more US deaths in Iraq than Saddam Hussein. Someone who says Israel should be "wiped off the map", and who has rockets that can reach Israel, and not that far from being able to put nuclear weapons on them.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/09/23/us.iran.ap/index.html

No way I could bring myself to write a tuition check for my kid to go to that school.
How do you even come up with an idea to do something like this.

Jesus_Freak
09-24-2007, 04:42 AM
There are many reasons why future leaders of America would benefit from hearing him speak even if he doesn't make a fool out of himself. I'm not exactly sure what would be the harm in allowing students to hear his views. It's not like they are hiring him to teach a course.

And in regards to Hitler, perhaps a lot of the holocaust and WWII could have been avoided if we hadn't had our head in the sand then. Imagine if he had spoke at a major American university in the 1930's during his rise to power...just food for thought.

It never hurts to hear others views, even when those views are strikingly different than one's own. In this case, however, this man's views have already been make exceedingly clear by his actions. What do we hope to learn? In addition, an invited speaker typically has his/her expenses + time compensated by the inviting organization. Giving a single USD to this fellow would be detestable.

bigmac
09-24-2007, 07:37 AM
Agreed. It never hurts to hear what a despot and sworn enemy of western values has to say. But the guy is a head of state...we've heard what he has to say. He has a platform from which he can spew all he wants, and we can hear him just fine right from his office in Iran. To actually invite him to speak here, give him a platform here at home, simply gives him and his jihad validity. What a crock!

Let me be clear...this guy is a sworn enemy of the United States. He sanctions, condones, and finances forces and equipment that are killing Americans. He not only threatens us, he follows through on those threats.

pilot02
09-24-2007, 10:15 AM
So eliminate him while he's here;)

Roonie's
09-24-2007, 10:22 AM
Why hide your heads in the sand? Let the guy come and talk. Hopefully, he'll make a fool of himself. Hopefully, someone will ask the tough questions. Hopefully, someone will... :rolleyes:


It would be nice to see someone in the audience stop his speach



He might get tazered if he/she speaks up!!!!

JimN
09-24-2007, 11:30 AM
JBaker- "Imagine if he had spoke at a major American university in the 1930's during his rise to power...just food for thought."

A delegation from the Nazzis went to the UN for a meeting and to speak in about '39, after Krystal Nacht. Ed Koch was on a show this weekend and said that when Mayor La Guardia heard they were coming, he needed to provide security and asked for only Jewish cops to volunteer.

It wasn't Hitler, but almost.

Ahmadinejad has as much right as any other President or leader of a country to go to the UN, which is technically not US soil. He can go anywhere within a 25 mile radius and Koch said he thinks Bloomberg should do the same thing when security is provided this time. Remember, he's the president, not the true leader of Iran. The hardline religious and a lot of the people are becoming more impatient with him, daily. Just a matter of time, IMO.

JimN
09-24-2007, 11:39 AM
So eliminate him while he's here;)

Who gets to do it? The military can't- it would be considered an act of war. The police can't, either. They're part of the government, too. Remember, a civilian killed Arch Duke Ferdinand.

Personally, I think the lecture hall should be filled with holocaust survivors, with their forearms bared to show the tattooed numbers from the concentration camps. With large, graphic photos on all of the walls. Also, a display with the faces, names, job info and families left behind by the 9-11 attacks. While we're at it, how about a line of US soldiers around the room, maimed by IEDs or Iranian made missiles?

Maristar210
09-24-2007, 12:01 PM
I'm absolutely speechless on this topic:mad:

1boarder
09-24-2007, 12:38 PM
I agree completely. He is a terrorist that has given the tools to kill our own. He should be locked up when he sets foot on american soil. You think a sworn enemy should be allowed to talk to a bunch of inpresionable college students based on free speech. This is why they will eventually overtake this great nation from within and we will allow them to based on our veiws that they care nothing about.

dmayer84
09-24-2007, 12:40 PM
Anyone watching him on CNN right now?

Roonie's
09-24-2007, 01:00 PM
Personally, I do not think he should talk anywhere in the USA but I also thought it was interesting that last night the Iranian president was interviewed by 60 Minutes and seen by tens of millions of American throughout the United States. As far as I know no one protested or called for a boycott of CBS or the sponsors of 60 Minutes, because the network gave Ahmadinejad a platform to air his views. Yet the beef comes when he wants to talk at the university??

bigmac
09-24-2007, 01:18 PM
News is news - he gets news coverage because he's a head of state. Whether he's a crackpot, despot, terrorist doesn't matter - he's still newsworthy.

Columbia University has invited him as their guest to come share his views with their students because they consider his point of view on Israel, holocaust, terrorism to be valid enough that their students should have to opportunity to consider those views in case they want to embrace them as their own. The university is essentially telling them that this despicable terrorist's views are worth considering.

The converse situation is that the Minutemen were physically assaulted on stage. Not invited back. And that university bans ROTC on campus. And they BAN military recruiters on campus. The US Military's point of view is something that is BANNED from being part of that Columbia University and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is something they want to seek?

Newsworthy isn't the same thing as educational. You can report the news without endorsing it as valid.

beef
09-24-2007, 01:49 PM
I can only hope that they thought they were booking Ringo Starr.

Roonie's
09-24-2007, 01:52 PM
News is news - he gets news coverage because he's a head of state. Whether he's a crackpot, despot, terrorist doesn't matter - he's still newsworthy.

Columbia University has invited him as their guest to come share his views with their students because they consider his point of view on Israel, holocaust, terrorism to be valid enough that their students should have to opportunity to consider those views in case they want to embrace them as their own. The university is essentially telling them that this despicable terrorist's views are worth considering.

The converse situation is that the Minutemen were physically assaulted on stage. Not invited back. And that university bans ROTC on campus. And they BAN military recruiters on campus. The US Military's point of view is something that is BANNED from being part of that Columbia University and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is something they want to seek?

Newsworthy isn't the same thing as educational. You can report the news without endorsing it as valid.

good point.

JimN
09-24-2007, 03:11 PM
1Boarder- "He should be locked up when he sets foot on american soil."

He hasn't committed any crime on US soil and the UN isn't US soil, either- it's neutral. He hasn't been formally charged anywhere else, and if there are no charges, he can't be arrested. That would be the tactics of a country that allows people no rights. He has the right to speak here. He has the right to travel within 25 miles of the UN, say what he wants no matter how repugnant, vile or revolting. He has the right to make as big an azz of himself as he wants or is able to. Beyond those, he shouldn't expect, nor receive, any special treatment, access or services.

I would like to see him react to one or more hecklers by completely melting down and saying exactly what he would like to do, what he has already done and give tangible proof. It's the perfect forum for something like that.

JBaker
09-24-2007, 05:51 PM
Columbia University President Bollinger was quoted as declaring during Ahmadinejad's speech, "Mr. President, you exhibit all the signs of a petty and cruel dictator" and "When you come to a place like this it makes you look simply ridiculous. The truth is that the holocaust is the most documented in human history."

I applaud Columbia and President Bollinger for providing him with a venue and then denouncing him. This is a much more effective tool for countering a rising power than simply conducting second and third party research.

I think a lot of you guys are taking this totally out of context. Anything that he is doing has little or nothing to do with 1st amendment rights. After all, the 1st amendment only applies to US citizens.

Chief
09-24-2007, 08:03 PM
Columbia University President Bollinger was quoted as declaring during Ahmadinejad's speech, "Mr. President, you exhibit all the signs of a petty and cruel dictator" and "When you come to a place like this it makes you look simply ridiculous. The truth is that the holocaust is the most documented in human history."

I applaud Columbia and President Bollinger for providing him with a venue and then denouncing him. This is a much more effective tool for countering a rising power than simply conducting second and third party research.

I think a lot of you guys are taking this totally out of context. Anything that he is doing has little or nothing to do with 1st amendment rights. After all, the 1st amendment only applies to US citizens.

I have to say that I'm pretty pleased to see that the President grilled him. Once he was in the corner he had no choice but to take his licks. I believe that Ahmadinejad could be the next hitler given the right series of events.

Believe it or not I think the French will be the first to fire on Iran. The world is becoming a very scary place to live.

Damn them all though, USA will live free or Die free!

bigmac
09-24-2007, 08:33 PM
Believe it or not I think the French will be the first to fire on Iran. The world is becoming a very scary place to live.

They'll have to stand in line, I suspect. My money would be on Israel.

Leroy
09-24-2007, 08:48 PM
Me too. This guy is like a bully walking around talking BS. He is dilusional and so is his partner CHavas.

They'll have to stand in line, I suspect. My money would be on Israel.

JBaker
09-24-2007, 08:58 PM
Believe it or not I think the French will be the first to fire on Iran.

I would love to hear you elaborate on this theory.

The French don't have much of a history of proactive military action. Obviously there has been some heightened tension between these countries since '03, but they have considerable mutual economic interests. I personally believe France will continue to push the UN Security Council to take action before they take anything into their own hands.

Speaking of the UN, they are probably the only thing keeping Israel from orchestrating the sequel to the Six-Day War, returning the full cast and guest starring Iran.

bigmac
09-24-2007, 09:27 PM
I would love to hear you elaborate on this theory.

The French don't have much of a history of proactive military action. Obviously there has been some heightened tension between these countries since '03, but they have considerable mutual economic interests. I personally believe France will continue to push the UN Security Council to take action before they take anything into their own hands.

Speaking of the UN, they are probably the only thing keeping Israel from orchestrating the sequel to the Six-Day War, returning the full cast and guest starring Iran.

I agree, but I'll bet Israel has a variety of ops plans ready to go at a moment's notice. I envision a fleet of C-130's on the tarmac with engine's warmed up as we speak...waiting.....

BuzzSr
09-24-2007, 09:52 PM
The one thing that really gets me is one comment Ahmad made "I cannot tell a lie". Oh and the other really comical comment about the holocaust was maybe it needs to be studied more. What a joke. Ahmad did a good job of avoiding the issues and not addressing them.

I lived and worked throughout the Middle East for five years, even helped in putting out the oil fires in Kuwait. Ahmad took the classic Muslim response, deny it and it never happened. They don't have to tell infidels the truth as they feel we are lower than dirt. I wouldn't be mistaken about Ahmad's motives, 1. Wipe Israel off the map & 2. Attempt to convert the world to what he believes in. I will give Ahmad one thing, sadly he is standing up for what he believes in. We could use more of the same and less of the passive approach.

I am not trying to piss anyone off just feel we need to look at history and get back to the principles this great nation was founded on. If I remember my history correctly, we had to fight pretty damn hard to found this nation.

Hoosier Bob
09-24-2007, 11:01 PM
I say torch him, wrap him in a pig carcass and serve him at Denny's! 10,000 Virgins? How about 10,000 pigs eating every last bite? Tell me your eternal party is fun now! Erase the Holocost, 911 and the hundreds of idiotic attempts/successes since? I say show all terrorists being brutally ****** by a Boar and things will change! But AKMED you said I would have 10,000 virgins? Oh well guess you get the boar! They hate pigs so serve them up. We have plenty here in Indiana. I have heard pigs fed with terrorists taste best!:D

I smell bacon!

JimN
09-24-2007, 11:20 PM
Actually, it's 72 virgins, but I don't recall anyone saying they were all gonna be women.

BuzzSr
09-24-2007, 11:24 PM
Did you hear Ahmad declare there are no Gay people in HIS country!! Now is that denial..

JimN
09-24-2007, 11:32 PM
They have sheep. Case closed.

dmayer84
09-24-2007, 11:39 PM
Where was it that the guy was caught with the sheep and then forced to marry it?

PendO
09-24-2007, 11:42 PM
A Sniper
A Spotter

or just have Israel test a nuke

// and we can "research" the blast radius and fallout, just like he wants to "research" the holocaust

JimN
09-25-2007, 12:03 AM
"Where was it that the guy was caught with the sheep and then forced to marry it?"

Utah, where men are men, women are scarce and sheep are nervous?

H20skeefreek
09-25-2007, 08:10 AM
It's interesting how the news in Iran is reporting on this topic http://www2.irna.ir/en/news/view/line-24/0709252616013529.htm

TheOneandOnly
09-25-2007, 08:22 AM
Did you hear Ahmad declare there are no Gay people in HIS country!! Now is that denial..


Actually, they hang people that are gay. They have a lot less (known)gay people then us since being caught gay will get you killed...

BuzzSr
09-25-2007, 08:23 AM
Truly amazing how the media, albeit Iranian, can twist things and create their own perceptions of what was said. In this case I think it went farther than perceptions to outright fabrication of what they wish was said.

Hey I stand on the word of God, and it clearly states who wins this battle.

bigmac
09-25-2007, 08:57 AM
Hey I stand on the word of God, and it clearly states who wins this battle.Hmmm....that sounds exactly like what Ahmadinejad and his cleric buddies are saying too....

Roonie's
09-25-2007, 08:59 AM
Hmmm....that sounds exactly like what Ahmadinejad and his cleric buddies are saying too....

LOL was going to say the same thing.

JBaker
09-26-2007, 10:53 AM
Ahmad took the classic Muslim response, deny it and it never happened. They don't have to tell infidels the truth as they feel we are lower than dirt.

I am a little shocked that anyone would claim Ahmad holds typical or "classic" Muslim views or that "classic" Muslims feel that we are "infidels" who are "lower than dirt." Of the 1.4 billion Muslims that make up more than 1/5 of the world’s population you would have a hard time finding many with such radical views. I welcome the day when we no longer make such wild generalizations about a demographic we clearly don’t understand.

BuzzSr
09-28-2007, 02:33 PM
I am a little shocked that anyone would claim Ahmad holds typical or "classic" Muslim views or that "classic" Muslims feel that we are "infidels" who are "lower than dirt." Of the 1.4 billion Muslims that make up more than 1/5 of the world’s population you would have a hard time finding many with such radical views. I welcome the day when we no longer make such wild generalizations about a demographic we clearly don’t understand.

JBaker,
You are correct.. My views are a bit tainted having lived in the Middle East for five years and unfortunately seen a more extreme side. It is very frustrating to see so much violence and hear in the same note; we just need to try to understand.... That street goes two ways.. The world would be a much better place if we all worked a little harder trying to understand each other’s views and beliefs. In fact if we all just lived by the 10 basic commandments which are found in the Holy Bible, the Koran the Torah, and many other religions fundamentals we would not be experiencing the issues we see today.

TX.X-30 fan
09-30-2007, 01:58 PM
I am a little shocked that anyone would claim Ahmad holds typical or "classic" Muslim views or that "classic" Muslims feel that we are "infidels" who are "lower than dirt." Of the 1.4 billion Muslims that make up more than 1/5 of the world’s population you would have a hard time finding many with such radical views. I welcome the day when we no longer make such wild generalizations about a demographic we clearly don’t understand.




Makes no difference if there are some peaceful muslims if this nut is the one with a stock-pile of nukes.

These who walk around our country dressed like they just stepped out of the 5th century disgust me, and they should not drive or fly or be allowed to walk around our streets.

All they need to do is strike us again on OUR soil and we will drive them and their disgusting religion into the ocean.

As far as us not understanding them, why in the hell would we need to or want to.

Jesus_Freak
10-05-2007, 01:58 AM
JBaker,
You are correct.. My views are a bit tainted having lived in the Middle East for five years and unfortunately seen a more extreme side. It is very frustrating to see so much violence and hear in the same note; we just need to try to understand.... That street goes two ways.. The world would be a much better place if we all worked a little harder trying to understand each other’s views and beliefs. In fact if we all just lived by the 10 basic commandments which are found in the Holy Bible, the Koran the Torah, and many other religions fundamentals we would not be experiencing the issues we see today.

The operating foundations and principles of these religions are stikingly different. One such dividing subject that continues to show up is the whole "who is Jesus?" delimma.

JimN
10-05-2007, 08:46 AM
"The operating foundations and principles of these religions are stikingly different. One such dividing subject that continues to show up is the whole "who is Jesus?" delimma."

Only one religion maintains that Christ is the Savior. Judaism and Islam consider him a prophet. All three have the same God, but by different names. Islam, which came along in 622 A.D., is based on the Old Testament and Torah but they think the other interpretations are wrong. You'll be surprised if you look into Judaism and Islam- you'll fine many similarities.

Here's a link: www.familybible.org/Teaching/Religions/Islam/HistoryOfIslam.htm

You know, fighting over religions that teach tolerance is one of the most insane things I can think of.

Tx.X-30 fan- "All they need to do is strike us again on OUR soil and we will drive them and their disgusting religion into the ocean."

If you know anything about history, The Crusades were carried out by Christians, on Muslim soil, over religion. It was basically retaliation over Muslim domination and hostility throughout the Middle East and Europe.

"Our soil"? Unless you're 100% Native American, how is this "our soil"?

"These who walk around our country dressed like they just stepped out of the 5th century disgust me, and they should not drive or fly or be allowed to walk around our streets."

Go to a Catholic church and tell me the vestments worn aren't based on traditional garb from the beginning of Christianity.

These attitudes are really not much different from theirs- "My religion is the only true religion". Each side is just as convinced they're right and the most adamant of each, frequently called fanatical or extremist, will kill those who don't see things the same way. Pretty stupid, if you think about it.

Jesus_Freak
10-07-2007, 05:06 AM
All three have the same God, but by different names.

No. Christianity maintains that Christ Jesus is God. Either that Jewish Carpenter who lived ~2,000 years ago is God is or He isnt. That belief is the dividing issue. In general, God can be acting in a prophet role, but not vice versa.

You know, fighting over religions that teach tolerance is one of the most insane things I can think of.

Tolerance? Christianty does not teach tolerance. The goal of the Christian life to point everyone to a single point of TRUTH that will change who they are. Changing people is not tolerance.

These attitudes are really not much different from theirs- "My religion is the only true religion". Each side is just as convinced they're right and the most adamant of each, frequently called fanatical or extremist, will kill those who don't see things the same way. Pretty stupid, if you think about it.

I am the extremist and fanatic that says this. Actually, I dont say it. Jesus did. See my signature. The only difference is that we have no iterest in killing anyone.

shepherd
10-07-2007, 09:14 AM
These who walk around our country dressed like they just stepped out of the 5th century disgust me, and they should not drive or fly or be allowed to walk around our streets.



Ha! I feel the same way about people who looked like they just stepped out of the '80s!

You know, I bet that attitude was pretty widespread in Germany, during the 30s. :cool:

bigmac
10-07-2007, 09:16 AM
I am the extremist and fanatic that says this. Actually, I dont say it. Jesus did. See my signature. The only difference is that we have no iterest in killing anyone.Not any more, anyway....



.

bigmac
10-07-2007, 10:10 AM
Obviously, it's "our" soil because we live here...our home....how we got it or who we got it from is immaterial to the concept of "where we live" being attacked. People are attacking our home. That has a significant backlash potential that's not likely to work out well for anyone. I can't see Hilary or Barak taking that kind of action, but I can see the American public electing a hard-liner in the subsequent future that would be willing to turn parts of the middle east into a glowing parking lot if attacks on OUR soil are stepped up and somehow become more effective. As a culture, our natural state is complacency. Remove that refuge by a more concerted and specific terrorist campaign on home soil and I think the ultimate results would become highly unpredictable.

bigmac
10-07-2007, 10:13 AM
Ha! I feel the same way about people who looked like they just stepped out of the '80s!

You know, I bet that attitude was pretty widespread in Germany, during the 30s. :cool:


Ah yes...the polyester purge of Nazi Germany...:D

shepherd
10-07-2007, 10:19 AM
Ah yes...the polyester purge of Nazi Germany...:D

It must have been terrible. Imagine the bonfires. That polyester really burns good!

JimN
10-07-2007, 10:43 AM
"No. Christianity maintains that Christ Jesus is God."

Part of the Triune but not that he's the One God, I am that I am and the other non-specific names. What about him being called "Son of God"?

Jehovah, Elohim, Allah- all are the same deity. One thing I find interesting is that, in Islam, Christ rises up to Heaven on Judgement Day, not Muhammed or anyone else who is held in high regard in the other religions.

"Tolerance? Christianty does not teach tolerance. The goal of the Christian life to point everyone to a single point of TRUTH that will change who they are. Changing people is not tolerance"

You said a lot, right there. Truth to whom? One person's Truth makes them kill others and become a martyr, in an effort to go to Heaven and receive 72 virgins, while another person's Truth causes them to adopt a lifestyle of always helping othes, regardless of the cost to themself. Yet another might decide to let things happen as they will, neither killing nor helping. Why? One side says it's Free Will, another side says it's God's Will.

Change the Christianity to Islam and the difference is zero, when you switch the sides in the Crusades- nothing really changes. They all want others to be the same but how they get others to change is the key. Any religious group that forces others to join them is really no different from a dictatorship.

There will never be total agreement. Ironically, all three religions use many of the same teachings.

BuzzSr
10-07-2007, 01:49 PM
You know Jim it all boils down to the age old battle between good and evil. I am on Jesus Freak's side. Yes I am 100% sold out to Jesus Christ who died for me to pay the price I could not pay. As such I believe the Holy Bible is the true word of God himself. While I can not quote verbatium I know Jesus states, in the Bible, deny me and I will deny you to the Father. Be ashamed of me and I will be ashamed of you. End of the day we all have to, or should, stand for what we believe in like this great nation we live in. No, it is not perfect. To add to that I do not know of a perfect country out there or everyone would be beating doors down to get to it. I am also very thankful I was born here and raised in a Christian environment. I say this as having lived in the Middle East for some time I can see if one was born there and taught from day one to believe in Mohammad then you would most likely grow up that way especially if they teach you if you deny Mohammad for another belief you can be KILLED!! Now is that freedom??

Again I will concur with your thought there will never be total agreement on this topic until Christ returns.

Bruce
10-07-2007, 04:26 PM
BuzzSr. WELL SAID!

bigmac
10-07-2007, 05:02 PM
The most difficult part about proving the absolute validity of any religion is that there is no proof....only faith. Someone whose faith revolves around a different religion is the same as saying that the other person's faith is wrong. There've been a lot of wars fought and people killed over the centuries for that very argument. We should have no doubt that adherents of Islam think Christianity is just as wrong as Christian's view the converse.

TX.X-30 fan
10-07-2007, 07:51 PM
I'll second that Bruce!! It is as simple as this, if we continue to act as sheep in this country they will not have to fire a shot, we will be finished. This country has stayed from what our founding fathers intended, I have no animosity toward anyone practicing their beliefs peacefully. JimN, we are not the problem in this world as you seem to think we are. We are the most generous, humane, caring, selfless civilization that has ever walked this planet. We deliver food and medical supplies to starving sick peoples of this world and fanatical muslims steel burn or destroy our life giving gifts? Some see our country as the problem, as long as I live I will perceive our great nation as the solution to many of the horrible conditions other people on our plant endure.

TX.X-30 fan
10-07-2007, 08:14 PM
Ha! I feel the same way about people who looked like they just stepped out of the '80s!

You know, I bet that attitude was pretty widespread in Germany, during the 30s. :cool:




Yes I agree with the 80's stuff. :eek:

What I was trying to convey was that if airport or other security cannot see who you are or what is on your person how can we make it safe for granny to fly to see the grand kids? We should not put American citizens in danger because some barbaric and archaic religion says that some lady's skin can't be seen.

It is curious that this new generation of immigrants has no desire to assimilate and become Americans, this differs from the others that came to this country yearning to be free and take advantage of the wealth of opportunity that this nation has had to offer for several hundred years.

If you are of the belief that this country is worth fighting for, then we fight, there is evil in this world that is working to destroy our way of life.

Bruce
10-07-2007, 08:23 PM
I'll second that Bruce!! It is as simple as this, if we continue to act as sheep in this country they will not have to fire a shot, we will be finished. This country has stayed from what our founding fathers intended, I have no animosity toward anyone practicing their beliefs peacefully. JimN, we are not the problem in this world as you seem to think we are. We are the most generous, humane, caring, selfless civilization that has ever walked this planet. We deliver food and medical supplies to starving sick peoples of this world and fanatical muslims steel burn or destroy our life giving gifts? Some see our country as the problem, as long as I live I will perceive our great nation as the solution to many of the horrible conditions other people on our plant endure.


A BIG AMEN TO THAT!
(It has been said that if you don't believe in something you will fall for anything!)

JoshBuzz
10-08-2007, 02:32 PM
Here's a pretty interesting article giving us an idea about the attitude of the Iranian government, and there ability and and almost want to attack U.S. soldiers as soon as they get the opportunity.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,297837,00.html?sPage=fnc.world/iran

Former leader of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard saying that as soon as the U.S. sets foot in Iranian territory they will receive a 'fair' response.

JimN
10-08-2007, 05:22 PM
"Former leader of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard saying that as soon as the U.S. sets foot in Iranian territory they will receive a 'fair' response."

This is called 'Sabre Rattling'. We don't have a reason to set foot in Iran. Yet.

PendO
10-08-2007, 07:24 PM
"Former leader of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard saying that as soon as the U.S. sets foot in Iranian territory they will receive a 'fair' response."

This is called 'Sabre Rattling'. We don't have a reason to set foot in Iran. Yet.

Agreed, we do not need to set foot in Iran ... we can get the job done from 30,000 ft as far as I am concerned ... plus, if we do it in winter it could save all of us on our heating bills, what with all the oil that we are going to set on fire we will no doubt help to heat the earth ... its a win-win situation ... now arm the damn bombers!

An early CHRISTmas

TX.X-30 fan
10-08-2007, 07:29 PM
"Former leader of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard saying that as soon as the U.S. sets foot in Iranian territory they will receive a 'fair' response."

This is called 'Sabre Rattling'. We don't have a reason to set foot in Iran. Yet.


That is if you are willing to overlook the proxy war against the US they are waging in IRAQ??

It is not a secret to anyone they are funding and arming the fanatical Islamic terrorists in Iraq.

JimN
10-08-2007, 07:55 PM
"That is if you are willing to overlook the proxy war against the US they are waging in IRAQ??

It is not a secret to anyone they are funding and arming the fanatical Islamic terrorists in Iraq."

Just like the way we armed OBL and Saddam Hussein against the USSR, with their proxy being Iran. Again.

And some people think the Cold War is over.

TX.X-30 fan
10-08-2007, 08:32 PM
28275



I'm with you JimN, where is he when we really need him. :)

JimN
10-08-2007, 08:46 PM
For those who seem to think the US is all sunshine and roses, compared with the rest of the world, the US isn't a bunch of choirboys. Our beginning is based in European tradition and as much as the Pilgrims wanted to get away from it, they kept it going in many ways. Britain was too heavy-handed in their quest for money and land, so the Colonists revolted. Since that time, we have been attacked on our soil only by the British and while Japan lobbed a few shells at Santa Barbara and Germany attacked our shipping in the ocean, the fight hasn't generally come here. 9-11 was a terrorist act, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn it was sanctioned by people in power, in the Middle East. If the CIA and our government know who was behind it and is not telling us, it sets an incredibly dangerous precedent.

Our foreign policy is one big reason we are hated by many in the rest of the world. Some here think our crap doesn't stink but our alliances have made enemies of other countries. True, we help others in their time of need and if we stopped completely, it would get ugly, fast. We don't just do it out of the kindness of our hearts, though. We expect payment and in some cases, large payments. We have put people in positions of power in some places and when they stopped doing our bidding, we went in and killed or arrested them.

There are places in the world I want to see, but there's only one country where I want to live. However, this country has a lot of work to do if we want to have the rest of the world looking up to us again. We have never had a generation of peace, in the US. I don't mean born, live to a ripe old age and die as the definition of a generation, I mean born, grow up and have kids. That can be as short as 15 years, if you read the paper or watch TV, but we haven't even had 15 years of peace. Kids don't want to go to or stay in school- they want to be gang-bangers and Professional Afletes. They want to do drugs and shoot holes in people, places and things. They want to frump up kids when they're too stupid to think about the consequences. They want to be bad parents, just like the ones they may, or may not, know. Even people with lots of money keep that as their mission in life. They just want more, of everything. nobody wants to take responsibility for their actions. If something bad happens, it has to be somebody else's fault.

As bad as all of this sounds, this is a lot of what the rest of the world sees as the public face of the US. They don't usually see the great kids, having fun with parents who care about them enjoying their childhood because soon, they'll go off to school and it'll be time to buckle down and get to work. Then, they have great kids, some not so great but they could be worse. They don't see the people going to work in order to provide for their families, so they can enjoy life and then retire to some lovely place, preferably warm and sunny for most of the time, and if they want to go skiing/snowboarding/sledding, they can fly somewhere.

The rest of the world is either doing the same thing or eating dirt for breakfast, lunch and dinner with the occasional grub thrown in for protein, so they don't know exactly what we do, are or have. They just know they want to live here.

One of my grandfathers came here from Europe and insisted that the kids speak only English. He knew that, although America is a "Great Melting Pot", trying to be one country with all of those languages wouldn't work. We have a huge problem with people coming here illegally and some want to give them amnesty. They're already a huge burden on our resources and while they could then be taxes, the wages many of them make wouldn't be a break-even proposition when the money spent enforcing border security is added in.

We have a lot of work to do. We have the highest rate of obesity and heart disease, our murder rates are ridiculous, the gangs are costing incredible amounts of money, resources and lives to fight, prosecute and house the convicted. Our election process has become abysmal, our government spends more time attacking the opposing party than actually doing what the country needs. We're in a war that shouldn't have started (Hussein needed to go but we should have done it differently and OBL/Al Zawahiri, et al should have remained primary targets), we shouldn't have gone into it without knowing the enemy better and now, Iran wants to pizz on our shoes. The dollar is slipping, we have a huge trade deficit and our position in the world is about as bad as it has been. China and Russia are beefing up their militaries and bringing assets out of mothballs which, coupled with the fact that we don't have a lot of friends out there anymore, worries the crap out of me.

We have the finest military in the world and have lost amazingly few of them, considering how long we've been involved. I don't want anyone else testing "our resolve", "willingness to fight" or any other campaign buzzwords. If our oil supply is cut off, we're screwed and there's a huge supply to the south of us, in a country where the "President" hates our President with his whole being. Still Chavez helps us out with discounted heating oil, in winter. Not a humanitarian effort, he wants to make W look bad.

You can think what you want but we're not loved and admired, the way we once were.

JimN
10-08-2007, 08:48 PM
"JimN, we are not the problem in this world as you seem to think we are."

Yes, we are a large part of the problem. Too many here just don't want to see it that way.

92 190 PS
10-08-2007, 08:59 PM
Jim I agree with much of what you say, but it really pisses me off when someone says nobody or everbody when they talk about this country.

I agree with the summary of your note, but please be cautious with such strong words like everyone or nobody. This country is great because of the few of us left that bust our butts every day and ensure that our families live the life we all dream about.

This country is great and like it has for the last 200+ years will continue to be great so as long as there are the few of us that are willing to put everything else aside and live life the way we were put on this planet to live.

One nation under God with liberty and justice (for those that need it :D ) for all....

JimN
10-08-2007, 09:57 PM
"One nation under God with liberty and justice (for those that need it ) for all."

Remember, the 'Under God" part was added in '54. Not as if it has always been there.

OK, if you're referring to "nobody wants to take responsibility", I probably should have said 'not enough', but if you read/listen to/watch the news and talk to people, I think 'nobody' is closer. I agree that some will take the hit if they do something wrong, but those people are few and far between, lately. Also, I only used 'nobody' once and I'm still looking for 'everyone'.

"it really pisses me off when someone says nobody or everbody when they talk about this country."

Fine, but that's a reaction that can cause problems and whatever happened to free speech? People who don't live here will generalize about us, the same way we generalize about them. Why else would we have stereotypes about people of other races, country of origin or religion? It's wrong to stereotype, whether it an American or not but it happens all the time. People hating other people and things only because they're different is an extremely ignorant view of things.

"This country is great because of the few of us left that bust our butts every day and ensure that our families live the life we all dream about."

I think it's great that people are allowed to do just about anything they want here, as long as it's legal and compared to previous generations, who didn't have the labor saving machinery we do, we're slackers. Some machines make the user more efficient but when someone can't bother to occasionally get up and walk 5 feet to change the channel, that's just one step from living in a dish. OTOH, having control over every electronic device in the house by pressing a set of buttons is pretty cool.

However, I think many need to step back and take a good, hard look at themselves, what's important to them and whether what's important to them is good for their own well-being and that of their families. People are becoming detached from their kids and we all pay the price, in different ways. I'm sure you heard about the 20 year old sheriff's deputy who blasted 6 kids, right? He used his department-issued assault rifle. He snapped after being called a "worthless pig" when he tried to get back together with his high school attending ex-girlfriend, yesterday morning. He might have been a good kid but I have the feeling that his parents could have either seen it coming (not necessarily to this extreme) or kept it from happening by being a closer family.

"live life the way we were put on this planet to live."

Huh? People have lived with major conflict since before they were people. If anyone here is a Creationist, no, I don't want to debate it. Everyone is entitled to their view, and if there's one word I really don't like, it's 'entitled'. Small animals, large animals, bugs, cells, genes all have some kind of conflict going on. From the beginning of the Bible, there has been conflict, starting with the Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel. Why else would we have Commandments and laws? Because people have proved over millennia that some can't govern their actions and others want to be in power.

Granite_33
10-08-2007, 10:52 PM
Here's a pretty interesting article giving us an idea about the attitude of the Iranian government, and there ability and and almost want to attack U.S. soldiers as soon as they get the opportunity.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,297837,00.html?sPage=fnc.world/iran

Former leader of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard saying that as soon as the U.S. sets foot in Iranian territory they will receive a 'fair' response.

And Baghdad Bob said no US soldiers were in Baghdad.

Propaganda.

The biggest reason they say anything at all is because they know the sheep in the media will bleet it out verbatim.

The quickest way to shut down any of these 2nd class wastes of skin is to NOT broadcast the drivel they blurt out every day. but hey we all need to be informed right?:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Notice the comment is from a "former" leader. Not the current leader, the guy who would have to issue the "fair" response. Kinda like a mouthy little brother standing behind you cause he knows he can't get hurt.

Leroy
10-08-2007, 11:06 PM
Read the Iranian history from WWII to today and see where the US and Britian maybe could have changed the reality we have today.

JimN
10-09-2007, 12:13 AM
Baghdad Bob was very good at conveying that he was absolutely certain that what he said was true, right up to the point when he was arrested.

Anyone remember the slogan during WWII about people keeping their mouthes shut? "Loose lips sink ships". The media could use a little of that advice. OK, a lot. Anything for better ratings, eh? National secrets? Sure! We have 'em and we're talking to anyone who'll listen. Geraldo Rivera, drawing out the US military's positions in the sand, on camera, really pizzed me off.

It was French, German and British territory before WWI and when the Arab Revolt occurred at the outset of WWI, things changed in that region forever. Look into T.E Lawrence's (Lawrence of Arabia) role in that area during WWI. He had ideas and negotiated deals with the leaders in the Middle East but when WWI ended, Britain, France and the US basically ignored his recommendations. He felt disgraced but the Arab leaders knew he was basically an employee of th British government. WWII was another turning point in their distrust of the West and the US is included in that.

PendO
10-09-2007, 12:16 AM
AMAZING

http://www.bhammonster.com/doopy.wmv

(stole this from MilK) ... enjoy watchng this terrorist in action

*not sexual, but a bit graphic

JimN
10-09-2007, 12:29 AM
"This is Holy War! I bomb myself all over you!"

Jesus_Freak
10-12-2007, 04:27 AM
The most difficult part about proving the absolute validity of any religion is that there is no proof....only faith...

Sort of…

Let us say I wanted to estimate streamline curvature in the flow of a liquid around an arbitrarily shaped boat hull. There is only one law to which I can refer to seek this result, Newton's law of motion. From Newton's law, fluid mechanics pioneers like Reynolds, Stokes, etc. derived relations that equate material partial derivatives to shear stresses, pressure gradients, and body-forces. I seek answers; there is only one possible solution. Based on the reputation and research of these men, we can trust the source.

Now, let us say, I am looking for answers for who or what is "God"? Should I simply guess at the answers, or should I look to a logical source other than myself. A number of people have claimed they are God or have a special revelation from God. Muhammad, Joseph Smith, Koresh, and Jesus come to mind. There are at least three distinguishing features with Jesus' statements that are not present with anyone else: 1) He performed miracles to back them up, 2) His birth and life fulfilled specific prophecies written hundreds of years before His birth, and 3) Eyewitnesses captured various features from His life in written accounts. (Side note: The accounts also log the unwise things the disciples did and dumb questions they asked Jesus). These recordings capture Jesus saying things like, "to gain your life you must lose it" and "there is no greater love than to die for your friends." They were not self-serving messages like, "you can be a god one day if you work real hard at it" or "kill your enemies and you get a straight ticket to paradise." Apart from any aspect of faith, how one was raised, etc., what is the logical conclusion? Which one probably is a more trustworthy source?

shepherd
10-12-2007, 09:21 AM
All I know is that after a lifetime of praying to Jesus and loving my fellow man, if I go to Heaven and Hassam is over on the next cloud with 70 virgins, I'm going to be pissed! :mad:

bigmac
10-12-2007, 09:30 AM
To accept accounts from 2000 years ago as fact, as absolute truth, requires faith in and of itself. The faith-based interpretation and acceptance of those particular stories is the basis of Christianity. But other religions have either different stories or different interpretations. The validity of those interpretations is held just as tightly by those people. When those various interpretations clash, we get the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Holocaust, and Jihad. It would be nice if we (all of humanity) could all just take our faith and use it to bring peace to our own lives. Instead, there has been a tendency throughout the brief reign of humanity to try to impose that faith on others, and be threatened by those who have faith in a different history.

I guess it comes down to how our faith dictates what we are willing to accept as proof.

Maristar210
10-12-2007, 09:34 AM
Some great points in these last three pages. I enjoyed reading the varying opinions...:popcorn: :popcorn:

JBaker
10-12-2007, 10:50 AM
To accept accounts from 2000 years ago as fact, as absolute truth, requires faith in and of itself. The faith-based interpretation and acceptance of those particular stories is the basis of Christianity. But other religions have either different stories or different interpretations. The validity of those interpretations is held just as tightly by those people. When those various interpretations clash, we get the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Holocaust, and Jihad. It would be nice if we (all of humanity) could all just take our faith and use it to bring peace to our own lives. Instead, there has been a tendency throughout the brief reign of humanity to try to impose that faith on others, and be threatened by those who have faith in a different history.

I guess it comes down to how our faith dictates what we are willing to accept as proof.

:toast: Very logical. If everyone's eyes were this wide open, the world would undoubtedly be a better, safer place.

Bruce
10-12-2007, 12:36 PM
I have observed over the years that most people come to their particular belief by one of three ways:
A. Hope of reward. (think for example 70 vestal virgins)
B. Fear (if I do/don't I will go to hell)
C. Faith (by far the most difficult to explain to others)

Jesus_Freak
10-15-2007, 01:53 AM
When those various interpretations clash, we get the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Holocaust, and Jihad. It would be nice if we (all of humanity) could all just take our faith and use it to bring peace to our own lives. Instead, there has been a tendency throughout the brief reign of humanity to try to impose that faith on others, and be threatened by those who have faith in a different history.

TRU DAT! I could not agree more. Thank you for the dialogue.

Jesus_Freak
10-15-2007, 01:55 AM
Shepherd: When you see your Savior, any "surprises" you may find (not necessarily the one you mentioned) will fade into oblivion.

shepherd
10-15-2007, 12:43 PM
Shepherd: When you see your Savior, any "surprises" you may find (not necessarily the one you mentioned) will fade into oblivion.

Obviously, my statement was meant to be light-hearted. But the inspiration for it is this: It seems to me to be pretty presumptuous for one group of people to say that their religion is the only way to worship God, and any of you other billions of people out there are going to Hell because you don't worship Him in the same way we do. Who's right? Believe what you want to believe. Live a good life, be kind to others, and hopefully some "reward" awaits you at the end. Live and let live.

JBaker
10-15-2007, 02:22 PM
Obviously, my statement was meant to be light-hearted. But the inspiration for it is this: It seems to me to be pretty presumptuous for one group of people to say that their religion is the only way to worship God, and any of you other billions of people out there are going to Hell because you don't worship Him in the same way we do. Who's right? Believe what you want to believe. Live a good life, be kind to others, and hopefully some "reward" awaits you at the end. Live and let live.

I am no expert here, but this statement seems fundamentally flawed. Aren't there are a lot of fallacies with that stance from a Christian point of view? Chiefly, the Bible explicitly states that there is but one path to heaven and God and that is through Christ. While there may be other ways to worship God or other religions, a true Christian believes that their religion, their faith, their "way of worship" is the correct way.

Separately, a Christian should not be kind to others in hope of a reward. This goes back to what Bruce posted a while back. There may be three motives for religion: Hope of Reward, Fear and Faith. One who is behaving justly in hopes of reward inherently lacks faith.

PendO
10-15-2007, 03:01 PM
All I know is that after a lifetime of praying to Jesus and loving my fellow man, if I go to Heaven and Hassam is over on the next cloud with 70 virgins, I'm going to be pissed! :mad:

seriously, 70 virgins ... wouldn't you rather have 70 porn-stars?

shepherd
10-15-2007, 10:23 PM
I am no expert here, but this statement seems fundamentally flawed. Aren't there are a lot of fallacies with that stance from a Christian point of view? Chiefly, the Bible explicitly states that there is but one path to heaven and God and that is through Christ. While there may be other ways to worship God or other religions, a true Christian believes that their religion, their faith, their "way of worship" is the correct way.


Yes, exactly my point. :rolleyes:

shepherd
10-15-2007, 10:26 PM
seriously, 70 virgins ... wouldn't you rather have 70 porn-stars?

:uglyhamme :uglyhamme

Well.... I'm not sure! I don't think I'd want to spend eternity with 70 pornstars! Maybe that's what "Heck" is like.

Phil, Ruler of Heck:

Jesus_Freak
10-17-2007, 05:58 AM
Obviously, my statement was meant to be light-hearted.

That is exactly the way I took it, my friend. I only wanted to encourage you.

It is not about who is "right" for the sake of being right. It is not about "religion" and who has it all figured out. I dont. It is, however, about the fact that we cannot be "good" enough to earn our way into heaven. Paul, the writer of many books in the Bible, calls himself the worst of sinners. He was talking in the present tense, while he was penning the words! He and I both know that we cannot live apart from the Savior.