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Maristar210
09-11-2007, 11:34 AM
I have some former employees that are making threats to me and my family through a second party. This has gone on for quite some time. The police have been involved and mostly ineffective. My boss would like me to obtain a concealed weapons permit and thinks I should do so soon.

I hunted as a kid and lost interest due the sea of orane on opening mornings but still enjoy skeet shoot and feel comfortable with a weapon in my hand for a number of other trianing related reasons. My boss the prez states no one would ever have to know I had it but he felt I should have it. Sounds kind of strange to me but he too is CCW carrier

Good idea? Bad Idea?

Lemme have 'em

BrianM
09-11-2007, 11:38 AM
I'd do it. I have been meaning to take the CCW class here but have not been able to get it done yet. I think it is a great thing to have if your state allows. If someone were making threats to me and or my family I would get it immediately. No need to carry all the time and no need for anyone to know you have it.

MarkP
09-11-2007, 11:38 AM
I have some former employees that are making threats to me and my family through a second party. This has gone on for quite some time. The police have been involved and mostly ineffective. My boss would like me to obtain a concealed weapons permit and thinks I should do so soon.

I hunted as a kid and lost interest due the sea of orange I saw on opening mornings but still enjoy skeet shooting and feel comfortable with a weapon in my hand for a number of other trianing related reasons. My boss the prez states no one would ever have to know I had it but he felt I should have it. Sounds kind of strange to me but he too is CCW carrier

Good idea? Bad Idea?

Lemme have 'em

Edit: I know this might not be the best day to discuss this either but he asked me again today....
I guess it depends if you are a “crazy idiot” or not.:rolleyes: . Only you would know that.. But if your not, I say go for it. Just get training and keep up with it..

tones03
09-11-2007, 11:39 AM
I know quite a few people that have them, mainly because they like guns and have quite a few, and the family protection thing. No big deal to them, but they dont carry a gun on them.

I dont have one but am thinking about getting one, not so i can carry a gun around, because i would not want to do that. I think having a CCW and carrying a gun in your car is one thing (what I would do), but having a CCW and carrying it in public is asking for trouble, even with the threats. Tough call, but you have to ask yourself, what if you had to pull it out and use it.

MarkP
09-11-2007, 11:40 AM
Hey, What happened to my reply?? I must be going crazy!!

JimN
09-11-2007, 11:41 AM
What do the police need, in order to do something about this- a body? Get a restraining order. That gets the sheriff's department involved, IIRC. If the second party is making the threats, have them locked up- they're just as involved now as the ones he's making the threats for. If you think they may buy/sell drugs, call the DEA. That way, they'll probably be under surveillance and doing something then would just be stupid. If they're making threats over the phone, record them and make sure it's legal. In many states, as long as one party knows about the recording, it's OK and since you're making the recordings, you must know, right?

Where is this happening? Make it so they can't swing a dead cat without hitting someone in law enforcement. If the police don't want to do anything, see if you can talk to the D.A..

BrianM
09-11-2007, 11:41 AM
I dont have one but am thinking about getting one, not so i can carry a gun around, because i would not want to do that. I think having a CCW and carrying a gun in your car is one thing (what I would do), .
Around here it is perfectly legal to carry a loaded weapon concealed in your vehicle without a CCW permit. Basicly the vehicle is an extension of your home. Only when it is carried concealed on your person do you need the permit. Again all states vary.

tones03
09-11-2007, 11:42 AM
Im pretty sure in MI, you have to have the gun and ammo seperate. Almost positve that is how it is for hunting guns, hand guns may be different.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
09-11-2007, 11:48 AM
Im pretty sure in MI, you have to have the gun and ammo seperate. Almost positve that is how it is for hunting guns, hand guns may be different.
If you have a CCW in michigan, you can carry the gun on you or in your vehicle, loaded at all times. The only places you cannot carry it are a place that serves alcohol, a hosptial, a staduim, a theater or entertianment type place that seats 2500 or more, a school, a day care, a college dorm or classroom or a church(unless you have permission from the church to carry it there). You also cannot be under the influence of alcohol at ANY time you are in possesion of the weapon, including in your vehicle. ZERO tolerance policy for alcohol. not even ONE drink while carrying is allowed. Carrying a loaded pistol in public is a huge responsibility and it is not to be taken lightly. :twocents:

tommcat
09-11-2007, 11:56 AM
i think it's a bad idea unless you attend some good courses. not just knowing how to shoot at a target. the classes i have attended are all about when to shoot, how to avoid shooting and knowing the legal recourses against you if you did. being comfortable in a high stress situation is far more important than being able to hit a paper target.
i wish everyone who carried would attend these kinds of classes.

i've been to a bunch and continue to go back for more

tommcat
09-11-2007, 11:58 AM
Carrying a loaded pistol in public is a huge responsibility and it is not to be taken lightly. :twocents:
i'll second that

and i'd add that i'm usually nervous about people getting a gun and carrying as a reaction to threats against them. they seem to be more nervous and may shoot out of fear when they shouldnt have.
not saying thats the case with you but just saying......

MYMC
09-11-2007, 11:59 AM
I have some former employees that are making threats to me and my family through a second party. This has gone on for quite some time. The police have been involved and mostly ineffective. My boss would like me to obtain a concealed weapons permit and thinks I should do so soon.

I hunted as a kid and lost interest due the sea of orane on opening mornings but still enjoy skeet shoot and feel comfortable with a weapon in my hand for a number of other trianing related reasons. My boss the prez states no one would ever have to know I had it but he felt I should have it. Sounds kind of strange to me but he too is CCW carrier

Good idea? Bad Idea?

Lemme have 'em
I have had mine for years. Maeghan also has hers...it is never a bad idea for good people to be able to defend themselves.

Pick out the weapon of your choice (HK P7M8 is a great one, and I can list reasons if you need them) and learn with that gun. Allow yourself time at the range to become comfortable with it...practice! Be ready to use it, but be prepared for the outcome. My instructor told me "be prepared to be wiped out financially, you'll need about $100K to prove that you protected yourself and the other person needed to die for that to happen, the financial ramifications cannot be understated. Understand that there will be a mental impact that you may never recover from, most people are not equipped to take the life of another and go on as if nothing happened. Understand that your actions cannot be reversed and if you value your life and the lives of your family more than what I just mentioned then a CCW is for you."

phecksel
09-11-2007, 11:59 AM
Are you prepared to kill someone, really prepared?
If you're going to use it as a self defense weapon, plan to take several training classes, not just gun safety. There's more to it then just pointing the gun in the right direction, and knowing how to turn off the safety.

Friend of mine was a Macomb county sheriff, and he told me about an incident he investigated. Couple of bad guys and few sheriffs got into a shoot out. In spite of a LOT {don't remember the number, but it was substantail} of bullets flying, none hit anybody. Here are trained professionals that couldn't hit what they were supposed to be aiming for in the heat of the battle.

I offer this as advice that was personally given to me by someone who runs a national gun radio show. I had a heart to heart when we first started receiving threats at our house, especially since who we suspected the threats were coming from. He is a big believer that everybody sane person should carry, but actually advised me against it, because of the conditions.

chudson
09-11-2007, 12:03 PM
If someone has threatened you and your family and you feel it serious enuff and not some bloehole spouting off I don't know if I wouldn't be carrying right now and then get the permit as soon as you can!!!

WilliM1940
09-11-2007, 12:18 PM
I have had one for a couple of years, it took 8 months to acquire (FBI is backed up supposedly), and in the end I bought a Mastercraft. If it is strictly a home protection thing, get a riot gun (short shotgun high capacity). You can have it fast, not have to be terribly accurate and nothing is more deadly close range. If invaded, put one in the ceiling after the fact, call it a warning shot.

Maristar210
09-11-2007, 12:19 PM
All good stuff. keep 'em coming.

Tomcat - I guess you would have to know my history and you might understand better but the situation you describe is not a condition that I worry about.

Phecksel - Not an issue. If it was between him dying and me dying I am going to center mass him until he falls.

I was more concerned with the legal issues and ramifications. What about my life insurance policy? My auto policy? What about health care coverage? what laibilities do I place my family under?

I should have been a little more specific but my true concern is will I be better off or worse off in my situation ???

Maristar210
09-11-2007, 12:22 PM
I have had mine for years. Maeghan also has hers...it is never a bad idea for good people to be able to defend themselves.

Pick out the weapon of your choice (HK P7M8 is a great one, and I can list reasons if you need them) and learn with that gun. Allow yourself time at the range to become comfortable with it...practice! Be ready to use it, but be prepared for the outcome. My instructor told me "be prepared to be wiped out financially, you'll need about $100K to prove that you protected yourself and the other person needed to die for that to happen, the financial ramifications cannot be understated. Understand that there will be a mental impact that you may never recover from, most people are not equipped to take the life of another and go on as if nothing happened. Understand that your actions cannot be reversed and if you value your life and the lives of your family more than what I just mentioned then a CCW is for you."


Thanks Mike. That's the kind of reply I was looking for.

Mike,

Can you answer any of the above questions?

Thanks - Steve

tommcat
09-11-2007, 12:27 PM
as far as the legal issues it depends on the state you live in. here in MA if you defend yourself or your family you will probably go to jail, get sued and definitely lose your right to a permit for the rest of your life. every state is different though

Leroy
09-11-2007, 12:28 PM
Steve;

Sounds like a recipe for diaster, I would really push the police or your employer to provide protection other than to tell you to get a gun. Risks are high if this really could lead to a shoot out.

6ballsisall
09-11-2007, 12:31 PM
Protect your family at all costs.......

that said, there sure seems like if the threats were serious (aka police could get a lead) that something could be done about this w/o violence.

MYMC
09-11-2007, 12:32 PM
I should have been a little more specific but my true concern is will I be better off or worse off in my situation ???
Only you can answer that, but I would tend to think if they were dead and you and your family were alive...you came out ahead.

Insurance wise there is nothing that will pay to defend your actions that I am aware of. If your life policy is like mine the only thing it won't pay on is suicide. If you are serious about all this have the money set aside to defend yourself as I posted before or understand you may have to sell off your assets to cover the legal bills.

BTW, DO NOT FIRE A WARNING SHOT...ANY SELF DEFENSE INSTRUCTOR WILL TELL YOU THIS. Empty the clip into the aggressor, call 911 and request immediate medical attention for the dead/wounded (you are not a doctor so don't presume to be one). Sit down and set the gun down (if it is safe) and wait for police to arrive. When questioned all you need say is that you feared for your life, so you defended yourself. Carry the card of the attorney you will have represent you and have the law enforcement officials contact them immediately...say nothing more.

Maristar210
09-11-2007, 12:36 PM
Only you can answer that, but I would tend to think if they were dead and you and your family were alive...you came out ahead.

Insurance wise there is nothing that will pay to defend your actions that I am aware of. If your life policy is like mine the only thing it won't pay on is suicide. If you are serious about all this have the money set aside to defend yourself as I posted before or understand you may have to sell off your assets to cover the legal bills.

BTW, DO NOT FIRE A WARNING SHOT...ANY SELF DEFENSE INSTRUCTOR WILL TELL YOU THIS. Empty the clip into the aggressor, call 911 and request immediate medical attention for the dead/wounded (you are not a doctor so don't presume to be one). Sit down and set the gun down (if it is safe) and wait for police to arrive. When questioned all you need say is that you feared for your life, so you defended yourself. Carry the card of the attorney you will have represent you and have the law enforcement officials contact them immediately...say nothing more.


That's pretty heavy Mike but good advice nonetheless.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
09-11-2007, 12:40 PM
I have had mine for years. Maeghan also has hers...it is never a bad idea for good people to be able to defend themselves.

Pick out the weapon of your choice (HK P7M8 is a great one, and I can list reasons if you need them) and learn with that gun. Allow yourself time at the range to become comfortable with it...practice! Be ready to use it, but be prepared for the outcome. My instructor told me "be prepared to be wiped out financially, you'll need about $100K to prove that you protected yourself and the other person needed to die for that to happen, the financial ramifications cannot be understated. Understand that there will be a mental impact that you may never recover from, most people are not equipped to take the life of another and go on as if nothing happened. Understand that your actions cannot be reversed and if you value your life and the lives of your family more than what I just mentioned then a CCW is for you."

Very well said Mike. VERY well said. It is something you need to seriously consider before you carry. You can never call the bullet back. You can never undo it. No average citizen will be the same if they had to use a gun to protect themselves. It would change your life forever. I am sure it would mentally & emotionally devastate the average citizen. I know stories of military people that had to shoot people, and its phooked up their lives so bad. They become an emotional and mental train wreck the rest of their lives in alot of cases.

As I said, its a HUGE responsibility, not to be taken lightly.

River Rat
09-11-2007, 12:40 PM
as far as the legal issues it depends on the state you live in. here in MA if you defend yourself or your family you will probably go to jail, get sued and definitely lose your right to a permit for the rest of your life. every state is different though


In Texas you would get a parade

MYMC
09-11-2007, 12:41 PM
Steve,

Contact your insurance agents and ask the questions...get the answers in writing and out them away in case your family should need them latter

Everyone is correct all states are different, here in NC if I feel threatened in my home I can shoot you through the door without ever seeing you; however if you come into the house I need to feel that I would lose my life if I didn’t shoot you. So if you just came to steal the lamp I need to let you do that or spray you with pepper spray.

IMHO, take the class...knowledge is power and will help you determine if this is the right path for you. Only you know the level of the threat and your ability to react to it. Law enforcement is kind of like a fence...it does a great job of keeping honest people honest; however, when faced with an animal determined to bring harm to you they are all but powerless until something happens.

Again, knowledge is power, go and learn...you'll be better for it.

rick s.
09-11-2007, 12:41 PM
I have had mine for years. Maeghan also has hers...it is never a bad idea for good people to be able to defend themselves.

Pick out the weapon of your choice (HK P7M8 is a great one, and I can list reasons if you need them) and learn with that gun. Allow yourself time at the range to become comfortable with it...practice! Be ready to use it, but be prepared for the outcome. My instructor told me "be prepared to be wiped out financially, you'll need about $100K to prove that you protected yourself and the other person needed to die for that to happen, the financial ramifications cannot be understated. Understand that there will be a mental impact that you may never recover from, most people are not equipped to take the life of another and go on as if nothing happened. Understand that your actions cannot be reversed and if you value your life and the lives of your family more than what I just mentioned then a CCW is for you."


I like your taste in weapons. I have a p7m13, and have had it for nearly 20 years. Great piece. Keep it locked up at all times at home. Would like to get a CWP but it is nearly impossible to do in California.

tex
09-11-2007, 12:43 PM
Are you prepared to kill someone, really prepared?
If you're going to use it as a self defense weapon, plan to take several training classes, not just gun safety. There's more to it then just pointing the gun in the right direction, and knowing how to turn off the safety.

Friend of mine was a Macomb county sheriff, and he told me about an incident he investigated. Couple of bad guys and few sheriffs got into a shoot out. In spite of a LOT {don't remember the number, but it was substantail} of bullets flying, none hit anybody. Here are trained professionals that couldn't hit what they were supposed to be aiming for in the heat of the battle.

I offer this as advice that was personally given to me by someone who runs a national gun radio show. I had a heart to heart when we first started receiving threats at our house, especially since who we suspected the threats were coming from. He is a big believer that everybody sane person should carry, but actually advised me against it, because of the conditions.
I have an uncle who is a retired cop. He is a very tough cat. He was forced to pull his weapon and defend another officer. He shot and killed a dude in the line of duty. He was never the same. It jacks with him still today and he received about every award an officer could get. He still knows that he took another person's life-Good or Bad.

MYMC
09-11-2007, 12:46 PM
That's pretty heavy Mike but good advice nonetheless.
Sorry my friend, but everyone that has a CCW should be prepared for the day it comes to this...to hesitate or say the wrong thing at the wrong time will have life altering consequences.

MYMC
09-11-2007, 12:47 PM
I like your taste in weapons. I have a p7m13, and have had it for nearly 20 years. Great piece. Keep it locked up at all times at home. Would like to get a CWP but it is nearly impossible to do in California.
Just bought a German version of the 13 (clip release on tail)...point and shoot, nothing better.

Maristar210
09-11-2007, 12:48 PM
To clarify a bit. The police around here get a differrent story from the persons making the threats. They tell me things like "he says he never said any of that" and act as though they are inclined to believe the disgruntled former employee over me.

The general attitude is this issue is nothing more than a domestic nusiance that will subside with incident. While I hope that is certainly true I cannot help but think the possibility exists.

The police forces in this area are concerned with public noteriety to justify thier budgets. They like things like drug busts and ticket writing to justify thier means.

I'll give you an example: The other evening I came home from football practice and noticed two cars blocking the marina entrance in the neighborhood. When I went down to check it out there were youths down at the marina scaling the freeway overpass to inch thier way out into the middle of the river only to jump into the river amoung the potential boat traffic and climb out and do it again. I did not want them to see my face, know which boat was mine or know where I lived for fear of vandalism so I called the local Sheriff's department and the dispatcher told me since they were climbing onto state property it was out of thier juristriction so I had to call the state police. What these kids were doing was very dangerous. While they were inching thier way across the freeway overpass they had to make it past the concrete and rocks some 40 feet up just to get out over water before jumping more than 50 feet into 12 feet of water.

90 minutes went by before two sherriff's department cars showed up. By then they were gone and even though I took down both plate numbers they insisted since they did not witness it there was no reason to give them the plate numbers.... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Rant over

tommcat
09-11-2007, 12:54 PM
Only you can answer that, but I would tend to think if they were dead and you and your family were alive...you came out ahead.

Insurance wise there is nothing that will pay to defend your actions that I am aware of. If your life policy is like mine the only thing it won't pay on is suicide. If you are serious about all this have the money set aside to defend yourself as I posted before or understand you may have to sell off your assets to cover the legal bills.

BTW, DO NOT FIRE A WARNING SHOT...ANY SELF DEFENSE INSTRUCTOR WILL TELL YOU THIS. Empty the clip into the aggressor, call 911 and request immediate medical attention for the dead/wounded (you are not a doctor so don't presume to be one). Sit down and set the gun down (if it is safe) and wait for police to arrive. When questioned all you need say is that you feared for your life, so you defended yourself. Carry the card of the attorney you will have represent you and have the law enforcement officials contact them immediately...say nothing more.agreed except for emptying the mag. that will get you jail time here

bigmac
09-11-2007, 01:01 PM
Carrying a lethal weapon is a huge responsibility. You have to know and understand the ethics of lethal force as well as the law.

If you aren't 100% committed to carrying a concealed weapon and using lethal force to protect your life or the life of another, then I definitely wouldn't do it - you are likely to be more dangerous to yourself and your loved ones than the people you are trying to protect them from. Some soul-searching is required as a large part of your decision-making process, IMHO.

I worry about the all-too-common reaction of people that threats to their personal safety can be resolved by arming themselves. Bear in mind that, statistically, with a gun in the home you are far more likely to someday shoot a family member than a potential malefactor.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
09-11-2007, 01:06 PM
Carrying a lethal weapon is a huge responsibility. You have to know and understand the ethics of lethal force as well as the law.

If you aren't 100% committed to carrying a concealed weapon and using lethal force to protect your life or the life of another, then I definitely wouldn't do it - you are likely to be more dangerous to yourself and your loved ones than the people you are trying to protect them from. Some soul-searching is required as a large part of your decision-making process, IMHO.

I worry about the all-too-common reaction of people that threats to their personal safety can be resolved by arming themselves. Bear in mind that, statistically, with a gun in the home you are far more likely to someday shoot a family member than a potential malefactor.

Excellent advice Bigmac. Top notch.

6ballsisall
09-11-2007, 01:08 PM
Carrying a lethal weapon is a huge responsibility. You have to know and understand the ethics of lethal force as well as the law.

If you aren't 100% committed to carrying a concealed weapon and using lethal force to protect your life or the life of another, then I definitely wouldn't do it - you are likely to be more dangerous to yourself and your loved ones than the people you are trying to protect them from. Some soul-searching is required as a large part of your decision-making process, IMHO.

I worry about the all-too-common reaction of people that threats to their personal safety can be resolved by arming themselves. Bear in mind that, statistically, with a gun in the home you are far more likely to someday shoot a family member than a potential malefactor.


TRU DAT!!!

M-Funf
09-11-2007, 01:11 PM
Staristar,

First, let's review the Second Amendment:

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

Gun laws vary from state to state, and so do the implications of an incident. Make sure you talk with people who KNOW the implications of your actions.

My Handgun Training instructor constructed a VERY detailed "plan" as to what to do if/when an intruder comes into his house. I can send you the details of his plan, which I have adopted as a temporary plan until I construct a better one...

FWIW, I keep a S&W Model 686 .357 Magnum (4" bbl) loaded with .38 Special JHP's in a GunVault safe (the revolver was recommended by my instructor). As a backup to the S&W, I have a Remington 870 Marine Magnum 12 ga. in the closet, with a handful of rounds in the Vault.

I also keep a cell phone in the Vault and have a hardwired land line (not cordless) in the same room as the Vault...

It is extremely difficult to obtain a CCW in CA, and I don't feel that I really need one.

EDIT: X10 on what Bigmac stated...!

JohnnyB
09-11-2007, 01:18 PM
I have talked to others that have considered CCW and purchasing hand guns for defense. My typical discussion with them is along the same lines as Mac...

You need to realize that you can get yourself in a situation where you will need to make a choice to use deadly force. If you're not 100% prepared to do that, remember that the gun can be used against you. If you hesitate at all in a situation with the gun, the consequences are much higher than if you didn't have it at all.

Also, accessible guns pose a danger to you and your family. I own several firearms that are kept in my home, unloaded with trigger locks on them.

6ballsisall
09-11-2007, 01:21 PM
Also, accessible guns pose a danger to you and your family. I own several firearms that are kept in my home, unloaded with trigger locks on them.


Same here......... the rule I grew up with and still live by today is keep the guns and the ammo in a seperate room. As said above, the stats of shooting a family member accidently is very high. My grandpa, who is extremely concientous nearly pulled the trigger on my mom when she was a teenager as she snuck back in the house late one night. After that his thinking has always been if you have to take the few seconds to go from one room to another to load the gun it REALLY makes you think about what you are about to do. Once the gun is loaded it's go time, there is NO going back.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
09-11-2007, 01:21 PM
I have talked to others that have considered CCW and purchasing hand guns for defense. My typical discussion with them is along the same lines as Mac...

You need to realize that you can get yourself in a situation where you will need to make a choice to use deadly force. If you're not 100% prepared to do that, remember that the gun can be used against you. If you hesitate at all in a situation with the gun, the consequences are much higher than if you didn't have it at all.

Also, accessible guns pose a danger to you and your family. I own several firearms that are kept in my home, unloaded with trigger locks on them.
More good advice. wise words JohnnyB. :)

JimN
09-11-2007, 01:40 PM
All good stuff. keep 'em coming.

Tomcat - I guess you would have to know my history and you might understand better but the situation you describe is not a condition that I worry about.

Phecksel - Not an issue. If it was between him dying and me dying I am going to center mass him until he falls.

I was more concerned with the legal issues and ramifications. What about my life insurance policy? My auto policy? What about health care coverage? what laibilities do I place my family under?

I should have been a little more specific but my true concern is will I be better off or worse off in my situation ???


We don't know your situation/history and without that, we can't make an informed recommendation. You don't have to tell us, but without information, it's all speculation.

"Not an issue", until the rubber meets the road. If you haven't shot anyone, it's all theory and bluster. If you have, why are you asking us? If you kill or paralyze someone, don't expect things to go on like nothing happened. In your house, you may need to prove that you tried to get away. Out of your house, you better have it on video, with witnesses, signed affidavits, the whole schpiel.

Paragraph 3- we aren't your agent, so we don't know how it will affect you, your policies and liabilities. Who knows? Your insurance company may drop you as soon as they find out that you get a permit or, they may increase your rates to the point that you'll wish you never got it.

Para 4- again, only you know your situation. Opinions are worth everything they cost. I would exhaust every legal method of causing them to stop the threats. If they don't stop, they need fair warning. That may be all it takes. If they're truly dangerous and won't give this up, make the decision one way or another.

Ric
09-11-2007, 01:40 PM
(what bigmac said) It's just a piece of paper mary, but if you go get the carry license, you are very responsible for what a licensed carrier is required to know. Just sayin, it makes you more liable and you gotta keep your head about you. If there are threats, I'd carry the handgun anyway and maybe get you a 12ga and gunrack for the back window of that regular cab you are buying.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
09-11-2007, 01:46 PM
Opinions are worth everything they cost.
Aint that the truth!

JimN
09-11-2007, 01:47 PM
"To clarify a bit. The police around here get a differrent story from the persons making the threats. They tell me things like "he says he never said any of that" and act as though they are inclined to believe the disgruntled former employee over me."

How hard it this to figure out? Get proof! One way or another, proof will make the case lean to one side. Without proof, it's just a squabble. With proof, it's a threat, preferably with a way to identify the voices. Video is great for this and small cameras are cheap. Good ones, however, aren't.

"I'll give you an example: The other evening I came home from football practice and noticed two cars blocking the marina entrance in the neighborhood.....90 minutes went by before two sherriff's department cars showed up. By then they were gone and even though I took down both plate numbers they insisted since they did not witness it there was no reason to give them the plate numbers...."

See my response to the other paragraph. You need proof! Nothing else will matter if they can't deny doing and saying things because their mugs are clearly visible on a video.

MYMC
09-11-2007, 01:48 PM
Lots of great points and information here...lots to think about.

Let me pose one other thought to you...there is no need to be a victim. There is a wealth of options available to you: Fox pepper spray gel, Tasers, Krav-Maga etc...that won't leave bodies on the floor, although with the Fox stuff he'll wish he was dead, trust me.

My point is that this decision should not be made in the heat of passion. Human life has become to disposable, not too long ago the worst that something like this brought on was an old fashioned *** whoppin...now we just shoot em.

If this situation was not in your life would you even be considering this? Think of this as a way of life and then ask yourself the question. If this is only because of this dirt bag consider some of the less lethal means listed above. Stats will prove that you'll be within 20' of this person when you make this decision so any of the above will work. I made my choices based on life experiences...give this lots of thought, if you are comfortable get training and practice...and buy H&K.

MYMC
09-11-2007, 01:51 PM
"To clarify a bit. The police around here get a differrent story from the persons making the threats. They tell me things like "he says he never said any of that" and act as though they are inclined to believe the disgruntled former employee over me."

How hard it this to figure out? Get proof! One way or another, proof will make the case lean to one side. Without proof, it's just a squabble. With proof, it's a threat, preferably with a way to identify the voices. Video is great for this and small cameras are cheap. Good ones, however, aren't.

"I'll give you an example: The other evening I came home from football practice and noticed two cars blocking the marina entrance in the neighborhood.....90 minutes went by before two sherriff's department cars showed up. By then they were gone and even though I took down both plate numbers they insisted since they did not witness it there was no reason to give them the plate numbers...."

See my response to the other paragraph. You need proof! Nothing else will matter if they can't deny doing and saying things because their mugs are clearly visible on a video.
Video is the ONLY way to go...it records voice and you do not need informed consent.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
09-11-2007, 02:06 PM
Lots of great points and information here...lots to think about.

Let me pose one other thought to you...there is no need to be a victim. There is a wealth of options available to you: Fox pepper spray gel, Tasers, Krav-Maga etc...that won't leave bodies on the floor, although with the Fox stuff he'll wish he was dead, trust me.



More good advice! spraying someone in the face with pepper spray has alot less consequences than a gun. Less legal, moral, ethical, emotional, and mental baggage to carry with you for life. You can subdue anyone with that stuff, and call the police. I dont think you can go to prison for spraying pepper spray trying to protect yourself, but the gun issue could get complicated. Pepper spray is not lethal force. you dont have to live with it forever. its gonna hurt the aggressor like hell for a few hours. Good advice again Mike.

JimN
09-11-2007, 02:06 PM
M-Funf- this case has nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment's intent. None of the Federal, State or local governments are going after him. That's what the 2nd was really about, along with defending house and home from invaders. It wasn't about the Hatfields vs the McCoys. It was about the people being able to defend the Colonies and their personal freedom, but not personal feuds that take place away from home, IMO. Concealed carry is a slippery slope- the risk to others increases exponentially whether intended or not.

This will likely cause a lot of disagreement, but I'm gled you quoted the whole amendment. I'm really sick of the belt buckles, hats and window stickers that only quote "The Right To Bear Arms", as if that were the entire amendment.

I'm not in favor of disarming the population and the methods of gun control being hashed over will never work. OK, so they can't get one legally but just go to an inner city bar and it takes 5 minutes if you know the right people. The politicians don't understand this, or just want to hit the hot buttons of their voters.

BTW- a land line does nothing if they know you have one.

JimN
09-11-2007, 02:12 PM
"Video is the ONLY way to go...it records voice and you do not need informed consent."

It records voice if it's set up to. If it happens at home, video surveillance equipment is not terribly expensive and is a lot cheaper than shooting someone.

JimN
09-11-2007, 02:13 PM
Maristar- Pepper spray is $9 at Harbor Freight. Be prepared to get it in your eyes if you spray it, and it stings like a SOB and takes quite a while to go away. If they ask why you're wearing goggles, say, "You'll see". Collapsible batons are a good thing to carry, too. Rolls of coins, a chunk of 4/0 cable with a loop for your hand is good, too. If you have a tool belt, having a hammer won't necessarily be a concealed weapon, either.

I hear pepper spray is good in stir fry. :firejump:

Ric
09-11-2007, 02:14 PM
BTW- a land line does nothing if they know you have one. it was sounding more like a panic room

MYMC
09-11-2007, 02:23 PM
Maristar- Pepper spray is $9 at Harbor Freight. Be prepared to get it in your eyes if you spray it, and it stings like a SOB and takes quite a while to go away. If they ask why you're wearing goggles, say, "You'll see". Collapsible batons are a good thing to carry, too. Rolls of coins, a chunk of 4/0 cable with a loop for your hand is good, too. If you have a tool belt, having a hammer won't necessarily be a concealed weapon, either.

I hear pepper spray is good in stir fry. :firejump:
Here is a link...this is the most powerful stuff around bar none: http://www.defensedevices.com/worhotpepspr.html

You can also buy this stuff in gel form that shoots over 20 feet and wind direction is not the concern of a spray.

Be warned this stuff will leave burns...they have had people actually rub skin off trying to get the stuff off themselves.

kal_dude
09-11-2007, 02:29 PM
it is always better to be the hunter than the hunted!!! the element of surprise is ALWAYS the best line of defense!! be ready for anything at any moment!! confront your threatener, and see if you can work out your problems, if not get the permit!!!

kal

tommcat
09-11-2007, 02:32 PM
for those that do already carry check out the new M&P compact from S&W. my buddy is the director of handguns there and i just got my new .40 compact. simply the best concealed carry piece i've ever shot

bigmac
09-11-2007, 02:35 PM
I have to get gassed and pepper-sprayed at least once a year. Definitely no fun. We will each put a $5 bill in a helmet in the middle of the floor, fire off the stuff -- last guy out grabs the dough.

Be careful if you're buying pepper spray. Most of the stuff you buy from places like Harbor Freight is pretty lame even though it looks great in the ads. You'll see pepper sprays with a wide variety of strengths listed in percentages around the internet as well as claims to be "the hottest" based on "5.3 million Scoville Heat Units", SHU's being the other means of evaluating pepper sprays. Be aware that in buying pepper spray, the only determiner of effectiveness is the percentage of capsaicin.

HOW TO CALCULATE CAPSAICIN CONTENT

There is considerable confusion within the pepper spray marketplace relative to the percentage of pepper and Scoville Heat Units (SHUs) contained in the various brands. In the last few years the industry has seen many claims of the "hottest" pepper spray. Percentages range from 5% to 15% and higher. Scoville Heat Units are claimed to be anywhere from one million to 5.3 million. Many buyers and consumers assume the higher the percentage and/or the higher the SHUs the more effective or "hotter" the pepper spray will be. It is the classic more is better syndrome.

However, the percentage of pepper or the number of SHUs of the product in isolation, are not the critical factors. The most important factor is the CAPSAICIN CONTENT. Please note: Capsaicin contents greater than 1.00% are generally used for bear sprays. Pepper spray capsaicin content levels greater than 1.00% have not been proven over time to be safe to use against humans.

FORMULA FOR CALCULATING CAPSAICIN CONTENT

A divided by B times the percentage of pepper = Capsaicin Content Where:

A = Scoville Heat Units Claimed
B = 16 Million SHUs which is the rating for 100% Pure Capsaicin
% Pepper = Percentage of Pepper Claimed EXAMPLE

Let's assume you want to know which is the most effective pepper spray between Brand X claiming to be the most effective with a 2%, 5.3 million SHU claim and Pepper Enforcement at 8%, 2 million SHUs. Use the above formula to arrive at the critical Capsaicin Content:

Brand X: 5.3 million divided by 16 million = 33.1% times .02 = .66% Capsaicin Content

Pepper Enforcement: 2 million divided by 16 million = 12.5% times .08 = 1.0% Capsaicin Content

In this example Pepper Enforcement is much more effective than Brand X.

JimN
09-11-2007, 02:36 PM
Ric- "it was sounding more like a panic room"

Doesn't matter- if the phone line is accessible at all, it can be yanked or cut. A panic room should have a way to press a button that activates a pre-recorded message to the police department. It should also have provisions for a couple of days, at least.

Maristar210
09-11-2007, 02:38 PM
Lots of spiritited opinions in here today. That's what makes this land of ours so great. What should be my next thread? Roe v. Wade???

Just kidding. Lets not go there....

Thanks for all the advice.

Jim N - you are displaying your usual level of highly energetic and informative pots, I appreciate them, really.

My best buddy has a .32 he keeps in his truck and has for years. The amount of responsibility he carries with him is not to be overlooked to say the least. He owns some rental property in a part of town that most people are of a different race than he is so he keeps it around for that reason mainly. He's an avid hunter and has a large gun collection.
I have consulted him on this issue and he thinks it is a good idea if I understand all that comes with the CCW. Perhaps the shotgun in the ceiling could stay and some pepper spray for the truck might not be a bad idea.

Ric- I like the gun rack idea, I'd fit right in around Houston then, right?

JimN
09-11-2007, 02:39 PM
kal dude- "it is always better to be the hunter than the hunted!!! the element of surprise is ALWAYS the best line of defense!! be ready for anything at any moment!!"

Sounds like a very enjoyable way to go through life. Let me know how that works, OK?

If someone is making threats, doesn't that constitute assault?

Ric
09-11-2007, 02:40 PM
I dont know if you'd fit right in but "Texas loves you anyway"

JimN
09-11-2007, 02:45 PM
I saw a show about Motown a while back and some of the original musicians were talking about a time when they finished playing and they went to get paid for the gig. The club owner didn't want to pay them what he had agreed to, so he told them what he would pay, then placed his gun on the table and said, "You got a problem wit' dat?". The drummer put his gun on the table, followed by the guitar player, bass player and the horn player putting theirs on the table and said, "Yeah, I got a problem wit' dat". They got their money.

MYMC
09-11-2007, 02:46 PM
I have to get gassed and pepper-sprayed at least once a year. Definitely no fun. We will each put a $5 bill in a helmet in the middle of the floor, fire off the stuff -- last guy out grabs the dough.

Be careful if you're buying pepper spray. Most of the stuff you buy from places like Harbor Freight is pretty lame even though it looks great in the ads. You'll see pepper sprays with a wide variety of strengths listed in percentages around the internet as well as claims to be "the hottest" based on "5.3 million Scoville Heat Units", SHU's being the other means of evaluating pepper sprays. Be aware that in buying pepper spray, the only determiner of effectiveness is the percentage of capsaicin.
Two leading products that I am aware of:
Pure capsaicin is 16,000,000 Scoville Heat Units (SHUs).

Halt II contains 1% of pure capsaicin (16,000,000 SHUs), so the overall product has a "temperature" of 160,000 SHUs.

Fox Labs contains 2% of OC (5,300,000 SHUs), so the overall product has a "temperature" of 106,000 SHUs.

M-Funf
09-11-2007, 02:48 PM
It should also have provisions for a couple of days, at least.

JimN,
I agree with you about the second amendment rights...That was my point, although I guess it didn't come out that way...

I also agree that a land line is of no use if they cut the line. Where I live, a 911 call from a cell phone goes to Vallejo and a central call center. It can take quite a while to get through. If I dial 911 from a land line, it goes directly to the local police station, which is only a few blocks away. I also keep a cell phone in my gun vault...

Oh, Does this count as provisions? :rolleyes: There's no "food", but there is a bottle opener 8p

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid205/p3ec19ea55aaa2622e0ce0f8074c6d814/ef0eac88.jpg

east tx skier
09-11-2007, 02:49 PM
In Texas you would get a parade

I know that's probably tongue in cheek, but in fact, is not the case.

Having read what Mike has written so far, I could not have said it better myself. I do not have a concealed handgun permit. But I am well armed at the house.

MYMC
09-11-2007, 02:55 PM
If someone is making threats, doesn't that constitute assault?
No it constitutes "conveying a threat" misdemeanor in NC

east tx skier
09-11-2007, 02:56 PM
No it constitutes "conveying a threat" misdemeanor in NC

In Texas, I think it's called "terroristic threat."

Upper Michigan Prostar190
09-11-2007, 03:11 PM
Ric- I like the gun rack idea, I'd fit right in around Houston then, right?
I dont know how you could fit into Houston if you cant even fit into that yellow speedo. :D

Upper Michigan Prostar190
09-11-2007, 03:15 PM
Ric- "it was sounding more like a panic room"

Doesn't matter- if the phone line is accessible at all, it can be yanked or cut. A panic room should have a way to press a button that activates a pre-recorded message to the police department. It should also have provisions for a couple of days, at least.
I should damn well hope the cops get there in a few days!!!! or are you guys talking about cold war fallout shelters??? I dont get the food idea.....

kingu
09-11-2007, 03:37 PM
Go to legallyarmed(dot)com. Good site for state concealed carry regulations and reciprocity between states.

BTW, I have a permit and do carry. I hope I never have to use it, but I do feel like my family and I are safer with it. My $.02

Ron Jeremy
09-11-2007, 03:42 PM
I have a gun :cool: ;)

tex
09-11-2007, 03:46 PM
In Texas, I think it's called "terroristic threat."
Yes it is!

tex
09-11-2007, 03:46 PM
I have a gun :cool: ;)
Please don't point that thing at me!

tones03
09-11-2007, 04:05 PM
Steve,

Keep us posted, if you get one I will be more careful about what I say about your daughter. :rolleyes:

Honestly though, do what makes you feel comfortable. If it makes you and your family feel more safe with it, that is all that really matters, is how you feel. IMO

-Tony

Bruce
09-11-2007, 04:05 PM
Don't know enough details however, if you can carry in car and have at home as we can here. I would think that is the better choice. I've had to pull a weapon on another human being (Marine Corps with escaping prisoner) It is not something you take lightly. (when he heard the slide go home on a 45 he came to a halt . Thank God!) By all means take the class when situation occurs instinct and training take over.

bigmac
09-11-2007, 04:08 PM
I've had a CCW permit here for more the 25 years. I rarely carry a handgun outside of "official" duties and for bi-weekly training.

Panic rooms, home defense shotguns, quick-access safes.......depressing stuff. We rarely lock our front door.

JimN
09-11-2007, 04:10 PM
"Oh, Does this count as provisions? There's no "food", but there is a bottle opener"

Works for me!

JimN
09-11-2007, 04:13 PM
Maristar- I was just thinking that, if you lived in Texas, you can use the "He needed killin' " defense.

tex
09-11-2007, 04:36 PM
Maristar- I was just thinking that, if you lived in Texas, you can use the "He needed killin' " defense.
Are you saying he didn't?

Upper Michigan Prostar190
09-11-2007, 06:14 PM
I still dont get what having extra food in the "panic room" is for.....????:confused:

MarkP
09-11-2007, 06:27 PM
I still dont get what having extra food in the "panic room" is for.....????:confused:
Guests :rolleyes:

SoCalBrew
09-11-2007, 06:33 PM
Watch the "Brave One"... that is what can happen with a gun in the hand of a scared person.

Having a gun won't necessarily make you more safe, just a little more dangerous. And without threatening back at them that you have a gun (which is wrong in it's own right), they have no way of knowing you even have a weapon - thus making it not much of a deterrent.

I have hunted for many years, and would never keep my guns in any place where they could ever be used against me... or anyone else.

My two cents.

SoCalBrew
09-11-2007, 06:40 PM
In case you have to stay for an extended period of time.

"Panic Room" Another scary movie by Jodie Foster.

I still dont get what having extra food in the "panic room" is for.....????:confused:

Upper Michigan Prostar190
09-11-2007, 06:43 PM
In case you have to stay for an extended period of time.

"Panic Room" Another scary movie by Jodie Foster.
Man, if I was in a panic mode I probably wouldnt be thinking about food.

WilliM1940
09-11-2007, 07:02 PM
:D Prussian Carry :D

MarkP
09-11-2007, 08:17 PM
So
Did you guys figure out if we are going to let Steve carry a gun??

Upper Michigan Prostar190
09-11-2007, 08:21 PM
So
Did you guys figure out if we are going to let Steve carry a gun??

He cant even keep track of a brass hammer, we sure arent going to trust him with a gun. 8p ;) :D

MarkP
09-11-2007, 08:32 PM
He cant even keep track of a brass hammer, we sure arent going to trust him with a gun. 8p ;) :DThat was my thought too..

Ric
09-11-2007, 10:20 PM
so what happened to Mary? did he buy a bullet and rent a gun?

Doug G
09-12-2007, 12:35 AM
I had a CCW and let it expire (laziness to go due the paperwork, not spending time at the range and didn't want to spend the time to go do the education) and carried for many years. The best advice I received and followed from a State Trooper friend of a friend was that you have to be ready to take a life without hesitation and to deal with the consequences. Thankfully a decision I never had to face. If you are going to pull it you have to be ready to use it. It is not a deterent, it is a weapon. You can't plan on scaring the other guy off. He might have one too and might not hesitate.

As usual Mike has covered a whole bunch of it with a great clarity and perspective. I would also reinforce that education is key to making what is ultimately a personal decision only you can make for yourself. The lack of was a big reason I stopped carrying, I didn't want to spend the time and money to do it right.

What is the true risk / threat level you are exposed to? What are you prepared to do? What alternatives are there? Are you committed to going the full distance to do it right (training, safes, etc...)? All things to evaluate as you think about it.

BTW Be careful guns can be just as addicting and expensive a hobby as boats are. (another reason I backed off)

For me, I do intend to renew my CCW and take the classes next year.

bucky
09-12-2007, 04:05 AM
I took the course, and have carried a Glock 19 for years, but never did the paperwork and made it legal. In my part of Oklahoma, if you stay out of trouble, you don't really need the permit.
Someone mentioned emptying the clip. In Ok, 1 shot is self defense, 2 shots are murder, unless you can prove they were still a threat after the 1st.
If you shoot through the door in Ok, it's murder. They have to be entering or in your house with clear intent to commit harm to you or anyone in your house (not just family).
If you fire a warning shot into the ceiling in Ok, you've just bought yourself an expensive roof repair. Warning shots are not necessary here, and my insurance will not pay off for any intentional damage I do to my house.
Speaking of warning shots, when I took my cc class, there was discussion about a warning shot making you more liable. Some in the "criminal justice system" (that combination of words cracks me up every time!) thought that the time and forethought required to fire a warning somehow constituted intent.
After all this, my only advice of any value is, aim well and make sure your story is the only story.
FWIW, YMMV, :twocents:

Maristar210
09-12-2007, 08:08 AM
Maristar- I was just thinking that, if you lived in Texas, you can use the "He needed killin' " defense.


Jim,

Now were talkin'. I could start with a cross dresser in Houston ;)

Ric
09-12-2007, 11:21 AM
Is that a threat?

Maristar210
09-12-2007, 11:25 AM
Is that a threat?


Who said I was talking to you:D

Maristar210
09-12-2007, 11:35 AM
Ric eee???

MarkP
09-12-2007, 11:54 AM
How about that!!!
Sounds like you grew two extra LARGE balls just talking about guns.. Nice!http://www.gottadeal.com/forums/images/smilies/new/gdthums.gif!

Ric
09-12-2007, 12:11 PM
Who said I was talking to you:D I am the only english speaking individual you know in Houston.

caden
09-12-2007, 12:12 PM
Take the class, train, practice
Your wife needs to take the class
Your kids need to understand gun safety
Then decide if you want the permit
If you have the permit and never carry, no big deal
If you carry, it is a huge responsibility
The pepper spray is a good idea, velcro under your desk top
Good luck

Maristar210
09-12-2007, 12:22 PM
I am the only english speaking individual you know in Houston.


Not true. My former boss Bob Pressly lives in Houston. He speaks english very well. He also has a condo on the 63rd floor of the John Hancock building in Chicago that I have enjoyed as well. Probably the smartest man I ever met, but I'm too stupid to know for sure.

BriEOD
09-12-2007, 12:22 PM
Interesting thread here. I would say if you have any reservations do not do it. My status as a Federal LE officer allows me to carry every single day, in an airport, on a plane, etc. It is a huge responsibility. Often times people become complacent. I know of plenty of LE guys who have been mugged or car jacked while off duty and did not have their guns with them. You never know when it will happen. For your home I recommend you get a revolver. If you or your wife has to use it and it jams just keep pulling the trigger. If you want to carry concealed get something practical and easy to use. It amazes me how many people want to buy "gucci" pistols with all kinds of features. Get something simple like a Sig or a Glock. I carry a Sig 228 every day and my wife carries a Glock subcompact.

I agree with Mike, if you ever find yourself in a position to use deadly force handle your buisness and immediately ask to go to the hospital even if you are Ok. Go and get checked out. This will give you a chance to calm down. Do not provide a statement, etc. It is amazing how many details you block out, etc. We do drills all the time such as sweeping a house and than immediately do an outbrief. It never fails, you won't remember the sequence or get tunnel vision, etc. As long as you can articulate what and why you did something was reasonable based on what you perceived at the time you will be fine. Go to the hospital and wait for your lawyer.

Also, I have been tasered, pepper sprayed, OCed, CSed, done Krav Maga and some other ground fighting stuff. Its nice, but just like a gun do you have it ready when needed? Krav Maga, like other fighting styles is only as good as your comfort level.

tones03
09-12-2007, 12:29 PM
Bri, so what you are saying is you are a bad azz?? and I have no idea what OCed, CSed or what Krav Maga is.

Ric
09-12-2007, 12:30 PM
bri is the reason gene got upset about people bragging on here

Ric
09-12-2007, 12:31 PM
Not true. My former boss Bob Pressly lives in Houston. He speaks english very well. He also has a condo on the 63rd floor of the John Hancock building in Chicago that I have enjoyed as well. Probably the smartest man I ever met, but I'm too stupid to know for sure. well at least I know you weren't referring to me :rolleyes:

Maristar210
09-12-2007, 12:31 PM
This stuff gets more interesting all the time.

Bri- Thanks for the tips. Sometimes you throw out a topic just to see a reaction and get peoples take on the matter. Also you quickly find out who's packing :D

Read this:

I was at a work cookout last evening at one of our middle managers house. This person does not work for me.

After a couple of hours of everyone having some good pork on the grill and a few beers she decides its a good idea to go in the house and get her .38 to show some of the guys. once I saw the gun I politely said I have to go, said good bye and immediately left the property. Several of my employees noticed the coincidence of the appearance of a gun and my departure. They were taken back by this and I wondered if I could get a response from this group?

The gun was not loaded and there were no bullets anywhere in sight,

Ric
09-12-2007, 12:35 PM
I never count any gun as unloaded . learned it when I was a kid. Its a good rule

MarkP
09-12-2007, 12:36 PM
This stuff gets more interesting all the time.

Bri- Thanks for the tips. Sometimes you throw out a topic just to see a reaction and get peoples take on the matter. Also you quickly find out who's packing :D

Read this:

I was at a work cookout last evening at one of our middles managers house. This person does not work for me.

After a couple of hours of everyone having some good pork on the grill and a few beers she decides it a good idea to go in the house and get her .38 to show some of the guys. once I saw the gun I politely said I have to go, said good bye and immediately left the property. Several of my employees noticed the coincidence of the appearance of a gun and my departure. They were taken back by this and I wondered if I could get a response from this group?

The gun was not loaded and there were no bullets anywhere in sight,
I’m not buyin it Janie..
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2135166458928439716&q=Janie%27s+got+a+gun&total=429&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3

tones03
09-12-2007, 12:37 PM
A kid i go to school with got shot and killed this year becuase one of his friends was playing with a gun and it accidently went off and killed the other kid sleeping in a bed. Alcohol was involved (i was not there). Just stupid to bring out guns when people are drinking.

I have a friend that is a police officer and if he knows we are drinking and he is on duty, he wont stop bye or anythign because of his gun.

You never know what people are going to do, or how much they know about guns. Leave it locked up, if other people and alcohol is around.

swatguy
09-12-2007, 12:48 PM
I pretty carry 99% of the time I am out and about, for different reasons though. Also when people bring out their guns at a party its a recipe for disaster. Guns are cool but ain't something to show off at parties. Especially a .38:rolleyes: HAHAHA No a Desert Eagle or something
:D
I am all for people carrying guns, but if you are gonna carry I strongly encourage some tactical gun courses. Also if you have any doubt than yo should vote no. Standing and shooting at paper all day is useless. When you pull it out in a life or death situation there are 1000 more variables like your adrenaline, muscle memory, brain function, and surroundings are a few of the top ones. You need to train yourself to make split second decisions and make THE RIGHT ONES. You can't get that from shooting bullseyes all the time. We can argue all day about who should, and should we be allowed to carry. I see both sides and will admit I am on the fence on a couple issues regarding this. I will say this and they are words to live by. A GUN IS NEVER UNLOADED UNLESS YOU UNLOADED IT YOURSELF WHILE IT"S IN YOUR HANDS.


Here's where I may differ. For those who keep your guns locked up, or unloaded, that is your prerogative, but I strongly disagree with that. I don't believe you will have enough time to unlock the safe, load and then go confront the person entering your home. Especially under high stress situation. Your motor skills for those not continually trained disappear. I am of the firm belief that an unloaded gun in a safe isn't useful, its more of a security blanket and a show piece. Just my opinion. Having 2 little girls I still have a loaded gun around at all times(not within their reach of course). I would say run around the block 5 times as fast as you can, then quickly run in the house try and open the safe and load the gun all the time while someone is barking in your ear. Have someone just walk into your front door after you get to your safe and walk to where you are and see who wins.

Shotguns are the best IMO for home defense. Just point and shoot. Revolver is second best as they rarely malfunction and when the do you just keep pulling the trigger. Downside is that they don't hold very many rounds and are not easy to reload, but if you have to reload you are probably losing. Though everyone always wants those small airweight revolvers because the are light and small. But those things are terrible to shoot. I will always have a small 9mm over that.

MYMC
09-12-2007, 01:02 PM
This stuff gets more interesting all the time.

Bri- Thanks for the tips. Sometimes you throw out a topic just to see a reaction and get peoples take on the matter. Also you quickly find out who's packing :D

Read this:

I was at a work cookout last evening at one of our middle managers house. This person does not work for me.

After a couple of hours of everyone having some good pork on the grill and a few beers she decides its a good idea to go in the house and get her .38 to show some of the guys. once I saw the gun I politely said I have to go, said good bye and immediately left the property. Several of my employees noticed the coincidence of the appearance of a gun and my departure. They were taken back by this and I wondered if I could get a response from this group?

The gun was not loaded and there were no bullets anywhere in sight,
Read the accident statistics...everyone killed or wounded cleaning a gun was doing so when it was empty. The damn thing is not a show and tell item it is a tool/weapon...leaving was the best thing to do.

Nothing and I do mean nothing good has ever come from guns and alcohol mixing.

A very smart guy once told me that doing one stupid thing at a time was usually pretty safe; however, when you mix two stupid things (or more) chances are someone will get hurt or worse. Example: drinking and driving…I’m positive that showing your gun around at a party while having some beers fall into the “two stupid things category”.

M-Funf
09-12-2007, 01:09 PM
A very smart guy once told me that doing one stupid thing at a time was usually pretty safe; however, when you mix two stupid things (or more) chances are someone will get hurt or worse. Example: drinking and driving…I’m positive that showing your gun around at a party while having some beers fall into the “two stupid things category”.

I'm not sure that I would consider Drinking or Driving "stupid things" if done separately, but I agree with the point...

Maristar210
09-12-2007, 01:25 PM
Today at lunch I hear a story from one of the others at this cookout who explains he was at a party about ten years ago under a similar situation and the gun went off critically injuring one of the party goers. Hence my point.

By the way. She has a CCW permit :rolleyes:

tones03
09-12-2007, 01:33 PM
Downside is that they don't hold very many rounds and are not easy to reload, but if you have to reload you are probably losing.

I know this topic is serious but I could not but help and laugh at that comment.

Ric
09-12-2007, 02:18 PM
Today at lunch I hear a story from one of the others at this cookout who explains he was at a party about ten years ago under a similar situation and the gun went off critically injuring one of the party goers. Hence my point.

By the way. She has a CCW permit :rolleyes: I think you did the right thing..

she is an example of why I say that the permit carrier has a greater responsibility/liability because they have supposedly been trained and their piece of paper says that they know the consequences and the rules and laws regarding deadly force...:rolleyes:

swatguy
09-12-2007, 02:19 PM
I am also going to have to disagree with the empty the magazine comment. That can get you in a lot of trouble in more ways then one. Lets forget the legality issues and just remember where there is 1 bad guy there is 2. You can't fight back with no ammo. You never know if his buddy is waiting for him.

You should definitely never take one shot or a warning shot. The whole one shot thing is for snipers as they used to say back in Ranger school. You "shoot til the threat is neutralized and then assess the situation" Best way to describe it. Never get into the habit of only taking one shot at a target,just bad training (unless its a no shoot target then by all means stop).:rolleyes:

Ric
09-12-2007, 02:30 PM
Jedediah Smith and the blackfeet only took one shot so as to not give away their position as sound carried

Wouter
09-12-2007, 02:34 PM
In 1994, gun-related deaths were five to six times higher in the Americas than in Europe or Australia and New Zealand and 95 times higher than in Asia.
Here are gun-related deaths per 100,000 people in the world's 36 richest countries in 1994: United States 14.24; Brazil 12.95; Mexico 12.69; Estonia 12.26; Argentina 8.93; Northern Ireland 6.63; Finland 6.46; Switzerland 5.31; France 5.15; Canada 4.31; Norway 3.82; Austria 3.70; Portugal 3.20; Israel 2.91; Belgium 2.90; Australia 2.65; Slovenia 2.60; Italy 2.44; New Zealand 2.38; Denmark 2.09; Sweden 1.92; Kuwait 1.84; Greece 1.29; Germany 1.24; Hungary 1.11; Republic of Ireland 0.97; Spain 0.78; Netherlands 0.70; Scotland 0.54; England and Wales 0.41; Taiwan 0.37; Singapore 0.21; Mauritius 0.19; Hong Kong 0.14; South Korea 0.12; Japan 0.05.

Ric
09-12-2007, 02:37 PM
That George Bush is nothing but a cowboy

Maristar210
09-12-2007, 02:52 PM
I'm am surprized at France.

Never thought they had the courage to actually pull the trigger....

tommcat
09-12-2007, 02:53 PM
In 1994, gun-related deaths were five to six times higher in the Americas than in Europe or Australia and New Zealand and 95 times higher than in Asia.
that was 1994, what you conveniently failed to mention is that after guns were banned in 1996 australian crimes increased significantly.

http://www.gunowners.org/hlr-au.htm

Maristar210
09-12-2007, 02:56 PM
Lets not turn this thread into a gun control thread okay?

If we do I'll have Ric delete it....

tommcat
09-12-2007, 02:57 PM
i was just just making a correction to some false stats:)

Maristar210
09-12-2007, 02:59 PM
i was just just making a correction to some false stats:)


I gotcha, I gotcha ;)

Leroy
09-12-2007, 03:24 PM
Living in Europe for couple years that would be my vote....


Lets not turn this thread into a gun control thread okay?

If we do I'll have Ric delete it....

trickskier
09-12-2007, 03:42 PM
Steve, I haven't read through this entire thread. However, I understand your concern for the safety of your family. I own a couple of guns but keep them under lock & key.

I would continue to pursue all legal avenues rather than having to result to carrying a concealed weapon. In my opinion that will only lead to big trouble and give you a false sense of security.

If these people are making threats towards you and your family I would find a way to prove it. Your money may be better spent on a GOOD private detective.

Just my opinion............:rolleyes:

JimN
09-12-2007, 04:38 PM
"I'm not sure that I would consider Drinking or Driving "stupid things" if done separately, but I agree with the point..."

I'm pretty sure all of us know someone who should stop doing one, the other, or both of these. Combined, some people can't help but F up. For that matter, some people can't get out of bed without getting in trouble.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
09-12-2007, 04:52 PM
Apprently I need a concealed waterski license. :cool:

trickskier
09-12-2007, 04:54 PM
Apprently I need a concealed waterski license. :cool:
I believe like my HAT, it has been concealed from you...............;)

Upper Michigan Prostar190
09-12-2007, 04:59 PM
I believe like my HAT, it has been concealed from you...............;)
ya know, i wouldnt put that past these screwballs......."Excuse me, Mr. airline baggage guy, yea, this is Eric Koehler, a friend of mine called me and wanted his waterski removed from the airplane and sent via USPS instead, could you handle that for me??? Thanks!"

BriEOD
09-12-2007, 05:29 PM
In 1994, gun-related deaths were five to six times higher in the Americas than in Europe or Australia and New Zealand and 95 times higher than in Asia.
Here are gun-related deaths per 100,000 people in the world's 36 richest countries in 1994: United States 14.24; Brazil 12.95; Mexico 12.69; Estonia 12.26; Argentina 8.93; Northern Ireland 6.63; Finland 6.46; Switzerland 5.31; France 5.15; Canada 4.31; Norway 3.82; Austria 3.70; Portugal 3.20; Israel 2.91; Belgium 2.90; Australia 2.65; Slovenia 2.60; Italy 2.44; New Zealand 2.38; Denmark 2.09; Sweden 1.92; Kuwait 1.84; Greece 1.29; Germany 1.24; Hungary 1.11; Republic of Ireland 0.97; Spain 0.78; Netherlands 0.70; Scotland 0.54; England and Wales 0.41; Taiwan 0.37; Singapore 0.21; Mauritius 0.19; Hong Kong 0.14; South Korea 0.12; Japan 0.05.
What is your point? The UK banned owning handguns and there violent crime stats have gone up, yes, up.

BriEOD
09-12-2007, 05:32 PM
Bri, so what you are saying is you are a bad azz?? and I have no idea what OCed, CSed or what Krav Maga is.
Nope, not at all. Just some guy in fairly good shape with a little bit of knowledge.

OC is an acronym for some very hot pepper spray. CS is a riot control chemical the military and police use to incapcitate people by causing a reaction to the respiratory system. Krav Maga is an Israeli self defense style where the victim becomes the agressor by using basic kicks and hits.

tones03
09-12-2007, 05:41 PM
Modest too, nice. Thanks for the info too, sounds like a crappy thing to go through but I know you have to have it done to you in order to do it to other people.

BriEOD
09-12-2007, 05:43 PM
Here's where I may differ. For those who keep your guns locked up, or unloaded, that is your prerogative, but I strongly disagree with that. I don't believe you will have enough time to unlock the safe, load and then go confront the person entering your home. Especially under high stress situation. Your motor skills for those not continually trained disappear. I am of the firm belief that an unloaded gun in a safe isn't useful, its more of a security blanket and a show piece. Just my opinion. Having 2 little girls I still have a loaded gun around at all times(not within their reach of course). I would say run around the block 5 times as fast as you can, then quickly run in the house try and open the safe and load the gun all the time while someone is barking in your ear. Have someone just walk into your front door after you get to your safe and walk to where you are and see who wins.



Great point you make, however I disagree. I keep my Sig loaded, but locked in a safe by my bed. It has an electronic cypher lock with a real quick pin code. I also have 2 curious kids in the house. If anything ever happened to them with my gun(s) I couldn't live with myself. IMO the probability of needing the gun in the house is lower than them going looking for it etc. With that said, I make it a point to educate and show it to them. They can ask me to see it any time and I unload it and let them see it. After the first couple times of that the novelty wore off.

Wouter
09-12-2007, 05:56 PM
What is your point? The UK banned owning handguns and there violent crime stats have gone up, yes, up.

MYTH: The crime rate has been skyrocketing in the UK and Australia since stricter gun control laws were enacted in 1996-1997.
TRUTH: The truth is that the UK police has changed its system for recording crime since implementing new gun control laws. This change in recording crime made it appear that the crime rate went up. The British Crime Survey, which was unaffected by this change, shows a decrease in crime. Go to the section under violent crime in the British Crime Survey. "The increase in violent crime recorded by police, in contrast to estimates provided from the BCS, appears to be largely due to increased recording by police forces. Taking into account recording changes, the real trend in violence against the person in 2001/02 is estimated to have been a reduction of around five percent." (from Chapter 6- "Violent Crime in England and Wales"

Wouter
09-12-2007, 05:58 PM
that was 1994, what you conveniently failed to mention is that after guns were banned in 1996 australian crimes increased significantly.

http://www.gunowners.org/hlr-au.htm

The claim that following the gun ban Australia experienced big increases in crime has been refuted as an urban legend at www.snopes.com, a website that is devoted to exposing urban legends. "Given this context, any claims based on statistics (even accurate ones) which posit a cause-and-effect relationship between the gun buyback program and increased crime rates because 'criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed' are automatically suspect, since the average Australian citizen didn't own firearms even before the buyback." . Australia's homicide rate is lower than the homicide rate in the US and there has been little variation in Australia's homicide rate since their gun buyback (source). Not surprisingly, the National Rifle Association didn't let the facts get in the way of its claims that stricter gun laws had caused an increase in crime in Australia. Attorney-General of Australia, Daryl Williams, pointed out in letter to Charlton Heston that "firearms are being used less often in murder, attempted murder, assault, sexual assault and armed robbery in 1998 compared with 1997." He also stated in his letter, "The 54 firearm-related homicides in Australia in 1998 equate to a rate of only 0.28 per 100,000 people. I have been advised that this compares to a rate which is in the order of 4 per 100,000 in the United States.

Wouter
09-12-2007, 06:09 PM
I'm am surprized at France.

Never thought they had the courage to actually pull the trigger....

You're speaking out of personal experience I gather. Still not done bashing the french?

BriEOD
09-12-2007, 06:11 PM
MYTH: The crime rate has been skyrocketing in the UK and Australia since stricter gun control laws were enacted in 1996-1997.
TRUTH: The truth is that the UK police has changed its system for recording crime since implementing new gun control laws. This change in recording crime made it appear that the crime rate went up. The British Crime Survey, which was unaffected by this change, shows a decrease in crime. Go to the section under violent crime in the British Crime Survey. "The increase in violent crime recorded by police, in contrast to estimates provided from the BCS, appears to be largely due to increased recording by police forces. Taking into account recording changes, the real trend in violence against the person in 2001/02 is estimated to have been a reduction of around five percent." (from Chapter 6- "Violent Crime in England and Wales"
That is a conclusion the authors of the study offer, not a "truth." You, nor they, can say with certainty based on police and victimization reporting that violent crime levels increased subsequent to anti-gun legislation in the UK due to administrative reporting changes. It is a theory, not a fact and definitely not a truth.

Ric
09-12-2007, 06:16 PM
MYTH: The crime rate has been skyrocketing in the UK and Australia since stricter gun control laws were enacted in 1996-1997.
TRUTH: The truth is that the UK police has changed its system for recording crime since implementing new gun control laws. This change in recording crime made it appear that the crime rate went up. The British Crime Survey, which was unaffected by this change, shows a decrease in crime. Go to the section under violent crime in the British Crime Survey. "The increase in violent crime recorded by police, in contrast to estimates provided from the BCS, appears to be largely due to increased recording by police forces. Taking into account recording changes, the real trend in violence against the person in 2001/02 is estimated to have been a reduction of around five percent." (from Chapter 6- "Violent Crime in England and Wales" cool, so the criminals there, no longer have guns? Or everyone there with a gun is a criminal?

bigmac
09-12-2007, 06:23 PM
Yeah. This is going to be a productive argument. I suggest you guys drop it now. Neither side will convince the other and I've never seen a gun debate that didn't become acrimonious. This one appears to be on the way.

Smugness and self-righteousness about our respective cultures is misplaced. On both sides. All of the western cultures have good points and bad points. I realize that American culture is puzzling to many, or most, Europeans. Many, or most, Americans don't care. We're just trying to paddle our own canoe here...trying to get better and more civilized according to our own standards, and self-righteous opinions from across the pond are as unlikely to be any more welcome here on Team Talk than Americans expressing their opinions of various European cultures.

America is what it is. Private ownership and use of firearms has been a staple of American culture for over 250 years, for better or for worse. Many of us would like to see a little more rationality applied to the subject, but that's gonna take more time.

Wouter
09-12-2007, 06:25 PM
That is a conclusion the authors of the study offer, not a "truth." You, nor they, can say with certainty based on police and victimization reporting that violent crime levels increased subsequent to anti-gun legislation in the UK due to administrative reporting changes. It is a theory, not a fact and definitely not a truth.

You mean "decreased" I suppose. You really believe that more guns = less gun related deaths? Anyway, didn't mean to hijack the thread. I do believe that Maristar 210 has a legitimate right do whatever is necessary to protect himself and his family (especially since armed criminals are so common in the US) (I lived in NY in the 90's when kids got shot for theirs sneekers weekly.) Am just saying (and I know you'll find this utopian) that in a context where criminals are less likely to be carrying a gun you might have less of a compulsion to purchase one yourself. Maybe, then, you could put the money towards a new ski or a perfect pass or whatever else your mastercaft may need...

BriEOD
09-12-2007, 06:30 PM
My point had absolutely nothing to do with guns, it had to do with understanding research. The product you cited was a research project produced by sociologists/criminologists. They provided an OPINION based on there research not a truth as you previously stated.

Wouter
09-12-2007, 06:38 PM
Yeah. This is going to be a productive argument. I suggest you guys drop it now. Neither side will convince the other and I've never seen a gun debate that didn't become acrimonious. This one appears to be on the way.

Smugness and self-righteousness about our respective cultures is misplaced. On both sides. All of the western cultures have good points and bad points. I realize that American culture is puzzling to many, or most, Europeans. Many, or most, Americans don't care. We're just trying to paddle our own canoe here...trying to get better and more civilized according to our own standards, and self-righteous opinions from across the pond are as unlikely to be any more welcome here on Team Talk than Americans expressing their opinions of various European cultures.

America is what it is. Private ownership and use of firearms has been a staple of American culture for over 250 years, for better or for worse. Many of us would like to see a little more rationality applied to the subject, but that's gonna take more time.


Hey Bigmac, didn't mean to sound self-righteous. Actually lived in the US for half my life and loved it. Love the US, love americans, love american girls, love mastercrafts, etc. I knew I should have kept my big mouth shut (being a foreigner) but a lot of people would agree with this even states side. Talking about more restrictive gun laws hardly qualifies as "unamerican." Anyway, my two cents...

JimN
09-12-2007, 06:39 PM
"When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns", and thirteen other lame sayings.

Mind control- that's it! That's the way to get criminals to stop victimizing people, especially the helpless. BTW- this should never be done with normal, law-abiding citizens.

Wouter
09-12-2007, 06:46 PM
The words MYTH and TRUTH are quoted from the article. Of course the research only points to a conclusion that is, as you point out, only an OPINION (albeit based on research) which may very well be biased...

JimN
09-12-2007, 06:49 PM
Wouter- there are definitely a lot of people who don't need, couldn't shoot straight and shouldn't own guns, especially handguns. I think a lot of the contentiousness between the Gun Control/Anti-Gun Control sides has to do with what the proposed controls could do in the future. Right now, they want to make it hard for convicted felons to buy a gun at all, and make people wait when buying a handgun. I suppose that's so they can calm down and not go to Walgreens, buy a gun and blast whoever they're PO'd at. Nice theory. Reality steps in and the hothead goes to an inner city bar and buys a gat for a couple hundred bucks and starts blasting, anyway. Probably get a call three to five days later, saying that their application was approved. If people wouldn't buy guns illegally, this might work. Since they do, it doesn't have a snowball's chance.

I think people need to control their rage, personally. Self control is a good thing and if more people had some, we wouldn't be discussing this at all.

BTW- BriEOD sold his boat.

Wouter
09-12-2007, 06:54 PM
"When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns", and thirteen other lame sayings.

Mind control- that's it! That's the way to get criminals to stop victimizing people, especially the helpless. BTW- this should never be done with normal, law-abiding citizens.


Man this is sore spot every time. Only MC thieves should get shot

Wouter
09-12-2007, 07:00 PM
BTW- BriEOD sold his boat.

Sorry to hear that. Is he getting a new one?

What makes it so easy to go buy a gun at the inner city bar? How many guns are in circulation? With this i drop the argument. Each his own philosophy I guess.

atlfootr
09-12-2007, 07:25 PM
watchout cuz I've got one and I'm packing BIG TYME baby!
So SAY :wavey: TO MY LiTTLE FRIEND

bigmac
09-12-2007, 07:54 PM
Hey Bigmac, didn't mean to sound self-righteous. Actually lived in the US for half my life and loved it. Love the US, love americans, love american girls, love mastercrafts, etc. I knew I should have kept my big mouth shut (being a foreigner) but a lot of people would agree with this even states side. Talking about more restrictive gun laws hardly qualifies as "unamerican." Anyway, my two cents...

No problem. I th8nk you're absolutely right. Gun ownership discussion always seems to bring out self-righteousness on all sides of the argument, American side too, especially when the argument transcends national boundaries. Our history is so much different (and shorter) than European cultures that polarization is inevitable.

No question that a lot of Americans agree with your point of view, just not the majority (or at least not the political majority). Personally, I fall somewhere in the middle. I'm opposed to unrestricted gun laws, and I'm opposed to banning them altogether. I've had a carry permit for decades and I own almost a dozen pistols, but I rarely carry one. I don't know where the rest of these guys live that they need loaded weapons in the bedside table, but I'm thankful that my little corner of the world doesn't impose that level of paranoia.

Maristar210
09-12-2007, 08:01 PM
I think I said some pages ago that I did not want this to turn into a gun control debate. One more post arguing either side and your post count will go down by exactly the number of posts you had in here.

Wouter, I don't remember asking your opinion, knock it off .... :rolleyes:

swatguy
09-12-2007, 08:03 PM
Great point you make, however I disagree. I keep my Sig loaded, but locked in a safe by my bed. It has an electronic cypher lock with a real quick pin code. I also have 2 curious kids in the house. If anything ever happened to them with my gun(s) I couldn't live with myself. IMO the probability of needing the gun in the house is lower than them going looking for it etc. With that said, I make it a point to educate and show it to them. They can ask me to see it any time and I unload it and let them see it. After the first couple times of that the novelty wore off.

I definitely agree 100%. All my other firearms are locked in a safe. However there is always one that is readily accessible ALWAYS:D ;)

BriEOD
09-12-2007, 08:22 PM
The words MYTH and TRUTH are quoted from the article. Of course the research only points to a conclusion that is, as you point out, only an OPINION (albeit based on research) which may very well be biased...
Fair enough, lets call a truths. You seem very educated on the subject and I in no way want to offend you or belittle your opinion. I have my opinions and you have yours. You have to love a free country.

Cheers.

BriEOD
09-12-2007, 08:27 PM
BTW- BriEOD sold his boat.
What does that have to do with the price of coconuts in Kyrgystan?:confused:

JohnE
09-12-2007, 09:29 PM
i think it's a bad idea unless you attend some good courses. not just knowing how to shoot at a target. the classes i have attended are all about when to shoot, how to avoid shooting and knowing the legal recourses against you if you did. being comfortable in a high stress situation is far more important than being able to hit a paper target.
i wish everyone who carried would attend these kinds of classes.

i've been to a bunch and continue to go back for more

A lot of good points here. Using a weapon in a possible self defense situation and using one for target practice are 2 very different situations.

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but here in MA, the permit allows you to carry concealed. Most permits are issued "for any lawful purpose".

WilliM1940
09-12-2007, 09:38 PM
In the pistol safety course I took in MA, the instructor/cop said that no gun related crime had ever been committed by a permit holder. I don't know where he got his stats from, but it is surprising the number of people who claim to need a gun to defend themselves. The in town housewife with two little kids in the grocery store (a small frame .38 in her pocket), my sister's former boyfriend who kept a .44 mag in his glove compartment and pulled it one night when offended on the road (glad she dumped him). Point is these people all live in the same relative conditions and area I do, they must be defending themselves from me and others like me brandishing car keys, finger nail clippers and other lethal weapons. I just got mine to be able to bring it to the range. I wonder how many people would have them if they never watched the "evening news".

tommcat
09-12-2007, 09:46 PM
What makes it so easy to go buy a gun at the inner city bar? the fact that violent criminals are not punished in this country and those that are convicted and sentenced are not actually expected to serve the sentence. and the criminals know it

spanielman50
09-12-2007, 09:58 PM
the michigan course is well done by the nra,,,,when i get out of my 88
powerslot i jump on my 4 yr old quarter horse,,wanted a ccw when
i carry my pistol on the horse and weather changes and i cover it with a jacket,,,,,i'm glad i took the course and think you will learn from it even if you never put it to use....you would be in controll ,,,,,,,,pray
you never need,i'll pray too,,,,,,

JohnE
09-12-2007, 10:38 PM
Now that I've read the whole thread, I need to ask: Steve, what is the nature of the threat? In certain situations, a handgun is not the best defense. There are studies that show that a 20 foot gap can be crossed before a handgun can be effective. i.e. I have a knife and rush you, if I am closer than 20 feet away, I'll be there before you can draw and utilize a handgun. And that study was done with law enforcement in mind in terms of drawing the weapon.

I have a lot of empathy to you with you being threatened in any way. I really need to know the nature of the threat to offer advice in how to handle it. I know if I were threatened by an identified person, it would be much easier to handle than by one unidentified. Read into that what you will.

But as a few others pointed out, there are some safer and more effective ways to defend yourself than with a gun.

And one saying I've heard and kept in mind: Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6. That's not meant to diminish the fact that you need to realize the possible consequences of any actions. But to bring realization to the action.

Hoosier Bob
09-12-2007, 11:26 PM
I would agree with JohnE. 20 can be easily broached. However as in any thing you need to understand the situation and create space when needed to make the best use of your defense. I'll give anyone with a knife 20' against my 40. 15 rounds of very quick discharge all while maintaining that 20 feet we discussed. Sure if I am standing still 20 feet is not much but moving and creating space while aiming a very accurate weapon I'll take my chances. Also if you have a knife I would feel much better with a 75 CZ or my 40. The restraining order is great but I have yet to see anyone taken down at close range by one?

JohnE
09-12-2007, 11:31 PM
Good point HB. I guess my first recommendation would be awareness, and then the proper response must be tailored to the situation.

Hoosier Bob
09-12-2007, 11:55 PM
This is a situation not one of us looks forward to. Realize your situation and find understanding. Next get solid training. When the sh** hits the fan accuracy is at a minimum. However a bunch of lead flying can easily suspend the aggressor no matter if they are hit or not. Also UNDERSTAND THE SURROUNDINGS! You do not want a bullet that can penetrate 10 feet of kevlar in civil surroundings! A shotgun be it long or short may be your best defense for the home. There are people all around you while your focus will be on the aggressor. As for mobility go for the CZ75 9 or I am sure others will have some great ideas. Get the permit! You don't even have to have a gun! Get it then decide!:twocents: Good point HB. I guess my first recommendation would be awareness, and then the proper response must be tailored to the situation.

JohnE
09-13-2007, 12:02 AM
FWIW, I have a permit and not a gun.

JimN
09-13-2007, 08:02 AM
"The restraining order is great but I have yet to see anyone taken down at close range by one?"

Tied to a brick?

MYMC
09-13-2007, 11:05 AM
You mean "decreased" I suppose. You really believe that more guns = less gun related deaths? Anyway, didn't mean to hijack the thread. I do believe that Maristar 210 has a legitimate right do whatever is necessary to protect himself and his family (especially since armed criminals are so common in the US) (I lived in NY in the 90's when kids got shot for theirs sneekers weekly.) Am just saying (and I know you'll find this utopian) that in a context where criminals are less likely to be carrying a gun you might have less of a compulsion to purchase one yourself. Maybe, then, you could put the money towards a new ski or a perfect pass or whatever else your mastercaft may need...
Love gun debates...maybe we can take up religion next?

Steve,
You never know...all you can do is act decisively and do all you can to protect you and your family. Have you considered a dog? We have owned and trained Ring dogs as well as Schutzhund. If you decide to look into this be careful with the Schutzhund dogs as they can be robotic and not function in protection when the crap hits the fan. As I said before there are lots of ways to protect yourself.

Unless you are up against a trained professional, I’ll take the dog everytime…and most people given a choice want nothing to do with a protection trained dog. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpXv8beXP98

MYMC
09-13-2007, 11:08 AM
I'm am surprized at France.

Never thought they had the courage to actually pull the trigger....
All this make me think of a line from a very American movie (Talladega Nights): "if we wanted a couple of wussy children we would have named them Doctor Quinn and Medicine Women". Carly Bobbi

M-Funf
09-13-2007, 12:07 PM
Unless you are up against a trained professional, I’ll take the dog everytime…and most people given a choice want nothing to do with a protection trained dog.

Dogs scare the crud out of me...My dad used to run a sheet metal/HVAC company. They had a guard dog (Doberman) that they kept in the yard at night. Hildegard was her name. Sweetest dog when she knew you, but her vision wasn't too good. If you came in through the gate after hours, she'd charge you until she got really close and finally recognized you and heard "the word" :eek3:

rick s.
09-13-2007, 12:41 PM
As I said before I keep all my weapons locked up in a safe. Under duress I realize I will not be able to open the safe and load up. If I lived by myself this situation would be completely different, I'd have something loaded close by.

If someone breaks into the house the first thing I'm going to do is call 911 on my cell phone. The second thing I'm going to do is to start making noise and let whomever is in the house know that the cops are on the way.

Am I going to shoot someone for trying to steal a TV? Hell no. Take the TV. Am I going to come out of the bedroom and confront someone? Probably not. But if they head upstairs after everything above, then I have no choice and will do whatever I need to do.

I guess that I need to reascess the safe situation.

pilot02
09-13-2007, 12:55 PM
I have a concealed permit in GA and had one in LA when I lived there. LA was a necessity working in a drive through beer store. GA was when I first moved here because you couldn't carry a loaded gun in the car when traveling though that's since changed. I still renew it every couple years though... I don't have an arsenal but do have a couple of long guns and my glock 19 (9mm) which recently received some new tritium night sights and I have 3 preban clips (2 15's and a 17rd) which are loaded but not kept in the same location as the gun due to the number of kids that come through and the gun is also trigger locked so it's not considered an immediate line of defense.
First thing I'd grab is the phone and then a shotgun.

JimN
09-13-2007, 02:24 PM
"Love gun debates...maybe we can take up religion next?"

Sure- right after we finish the political "discussion". I know, let's all meet at a bar for this! That would be great!

Maristar210
09-13-2007, 02:34 PM
I love Wouter :)

JimN
09-13-2007, 02:48 PM
Lighten up, Francis!

Maristar210
09-13-2007, 02:56 PM
Sorry. I read it three times and the third time I decided....

Well you know what I decided.... :D

M-Funf
09-13-2007, 02:56 PM
Lighten up, Francis!

Uh, oh...you called him Francis :rolleyes:

Ric
09-13-2007, 03:13 PM
you people are still here???????

Don't you people have homes!!!!!!!!!?

BriEOD
09-13-2007, 05:33 PM
you people are still here???????

Don't you people have homes!!!!!!!!!?
Stow it Rachel.

Maristar210
09-13-2007, 08:34 PM
Yep I agree. Only 11 hours until the Friday thread ....


RIC EEEE
:D :D :D :D

tones03
09-13-2007, 08:37 PM
why not start it early? I just got back from b-dubs, $.50 bone less and a couple of tall boys. :)

BriEOD
09-13-2007, 08:47 PM
Lighten up, Francis!
"Any of you homos touch my stuff...."

Maristar210
09-13-2007, 08:58 PM
"Any of you homos touch my stuff...."


"And I'll kill ya" .... "got it?"

atlfootr
09-13-2007, 09:15 PM
"And I'll kill ya" .... "got it?"Here's a recent local reason 8 miles away from where I live as for why I carry!

Two additional arrests made in murder of Winter Haven man
Last Update: 8/28 4:38 pm

WINTER HAVEN -- Polk County Sheriffs Office Homicide detectives made two additional arrests in the murder of Robert Cameron.

Detectives arrested two black males, 20-year-old Anton Neal and 19-year-old Kelly Washington, IV. They are both charged with first degree murder, armed burglary and armed robbery.

Cameron was killed August 22 at his condo in Winter Haven. Detectives say Cameron resisted the suspects when they tried to rob him.

He was shot and died a short time later at Lakeland Regional Medical Center. Detectives are still looking for a third black male suspect named Desmond Davis.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
09-13-2007, 09:15 PM
So did get a gun?? is he packing iron??

atlfootr
09-13-2007, 09:23 PM
So did get a gun?? is he packing iron??Say again :confused:

Upper Michigan Prostar190
09-13-2007, 09:29 PM
Say again :confused:
Well, maybe its me,but I could swear Staristar started a thread about getting a concealed weapon permit. ?:confused: thats what I meant......did he get a gun???

atlfootr
09-13-2007, 09:31 PM
Oh, :o my bad ... didn't know about his attempts :)

MYMC
09-14-2007, 09:08 AM
"Any of you homos touch my stuff...."
Sgt Hulka: "Soldier, I've noticed that you're always last."
John Winger: "I'm pacing myself, Sergeant"

Wouter
09-14-2007, 09:12 AM
I love Wouter :)

I love u 2 Francis ;)

JimN
09-14-2007, 09:29 AM
"Every foot needs a big toe and you, Sgt. Hulka, are our big toe".

JimN
09-14-2007, 09:31 AM
"You're weird, you're a mutant, you're a lean, mean, killing machine!"

Maristar210
09-14-2007, 09:41 AM
Well this thread sure has gone awry. Might as well join in....


"What kind of training you boys been in?"

MYMC
09-14-2007, 09:53 AM
"We're all very different people. We're not Watusi, we're not Spartans, we're Americans. With a capital "A", huh? And you know what that means? Do you? That means that our forefathers were kicked out of every decent country in the world. We are the wretched refuse. We're the underdog. We're mutts."

tones03
09-14-2007, 09:57 AM
"Well, my name's Dewey Oxburger. My friends call me Ox. I dont know if you've noticed, but I got a slight weight problem."

atlfootr
09-14-2007, 09:58 AM
Let's get it back on track, gentlemen ...

MYMC
09-14-2007, 10:37 AM
Let's get it back on track, gentlemen ...
You're right...

pilot02
09-14-2007, 10:44 AM
"We're all very different people. We're not Watusi, we're not Spartans, we're Americans. With a capital "A", huh? And you know what that means? Do you? That means that our forefathers were kicked out of every decent country in the world. We are the wretched refuse. We're the underdog. We're mutts."

Good ole Bill Murray in Stripes... Great movie..

Hey Mike, are you and Meaghan going to Nopi this weekend?

MYMC
09-14-2007, 11:37 AM
Good ole Bill Murray in Stripes... Great movie..

Hey Mike, are you and Meaghan going to Nopi this weekend?
No, we are off to the Dealer Meeting and Surf Expo...sorry.

Upper Michigan Prostar190
09-18-2007, 03:20 PM
YOu get a gun yet Steve??:confused:

pilot02
09-18-2007, 03:27 PM
No, we are off to the Dealer Meeting and Surf Expo...sorry.

Nothing wrong with that...

I'll be calling ya sometime in the next week or so, got some questions for ya that aren't boat related... (well maybe a little) :rolleyes:

TheOneandOnly
09-18-2007, 03:56 PM
Get a Police Stun Gun very effective without killing...

onewheat
09-18-2007, 11:19 PM
Get a Police Stun Gun very effective without killing...

What if they 'needed killing'? :uglyhamme

Ric
09-19-2007, 07:27 AM
What if they 'needed killing'? :uglyhamme uhghghhmmmm I reckon so

TheOneandOnly
09-19-2007, 08:19 AM
Well I guess if your in that situation it would ***. I personally would move, and or get away from the situation. How many people need to carry a gun these days to feel safe? I guess Im just different I wouldnt want to have to deal with the ramifications of shooting someone and possible being charged with murder. Where as a stun gun will knock anyone to there ***, better off get a gun with pellets that the cops use. 9 clip will hurt like crazy and stop an individual but wont kill.

GO hunting if "needed killing" for each is own, personally Ive seen guns cause some issues with peoples lives.

What if they 'needed killing'? :uglyhamme

Ric
09-19-2007, 08:26 AM
Well I guess if your in that situation it would ***. I personally would move, and or get away from the situation. How many people need to carry a gun these days to feel safe? I guess Im just different I wouldnt want to have to deal with the ramifications of shooting someone and possible being charged with murder. Where as a stun gun will knock anyone to there ***, better off get a gun with pellets that the cops use. 9 clip will hurt like crazy and stop an individual but wont kill.

GO hunting if "needed killing" for each is own, personally Ive seen guns cause some issues with peoples lives. relax, it's from slingblade:D

TheOneandOnly
09-19-2007, 08:34 AM
Ric always relaxed just giving advise ;)
relax, it's from slingblade:D

Ric
09-19-2007, 08:39 AM
one wheat was getting no credit for his slinblade line so your rant was my opportunity.

I agree with you that it's big decision to decide you are willing to kill someone to protect yourself or your family. If you are not willing to do that, then the gun is a bad idea.

urmmmmmm hello 911... I killed that doyle umhhmmhmmm

Maristar210
09-19-2007, 08:43 AM
YOu get a gun yet Steve??:confused:


Who said I did not own a gun?

tommcat
09-19-2007, 09:32 AM
Well I guess if your in that situation it would ***. I personally would move, and or get away from the situation. How many people need to carry a gun these days to feel safe? I guess Im just different I wouldnt want to have to deal with the ramifications of shooting someone and possible being charged with murder. Where as a stun gun will knock anyone to there ***, better off get a gun with pellets that the cops use. 9 clip will hurt like crazy and stop an individual but wont kill.

GO hunting if "needed killing" for each is own, personally Ive seen guns cause some issues with peoples lives.
your cops use pellets instead of bullets?

Upper Michigan Prostar190
09-19-2007, 09:49 AM
Ah, just taze em'. It worked for the U of F police on the mouthy guy. :uglyhamme

TX.X-30 fan
01-08-2008, 07:34 PM
Here's one for bigmac!!!! :D :D



Doctors:

(A) The number of doctors in the U.S. is 700,000.
(B) Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year are 120,000.
(C) Accidental deaths per physicians is 17.14%.

Statistics courtesy of the U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services.

Guns:

(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000 (yes, that's 80 MILLION).
(B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500.
(C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is 0.001875%

Statistics courtesy of the FBI

So statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

Remember, guns don't kill people, doctors do.

FACT: NOT EVERYBODY HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT ONE DOCTOR.
Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban doctors before this gets completely out of hand!!!!

Out of concern for the public at large, I have withheld statistics on lawyers for fear the shock would cause people to panic and seek medical attention.

brat
01-08-2008, 08:38 PM
Around here it is perfectly legal to carry a loaded weapon concealed in your vehicle without a CCW permit. Basicly the vehicle is an extension of your home. Only when it is carried concealed on your person do you need the permit. Again all states vary.



I think you maybe mistaken, you can carry it in plain sight not concealed. In Louisiana this applies to your vehicle or YOUR PERSON. They don't advertise it but you can literally strap on a holster and go gunslinger style. Except the schools and govt. buildings.

Monte
01-08-2008, 09:26 PM
Here's one for bigmac!!!! :D :D



Doctors:

(A) The number of doctors in the U.S. is 700,000.
(B) Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year are 120,000.
(C) Accidental deaths per physicians is 17.14%.

Statistics courtesy of the U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services.

Guns:

(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000 (yes, that's 80 MILLION).
(B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500.
(C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is 0.001875%

Statistics courtesy of the FBI

So statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

Remember, guns don't kill people, doctors do.

FACT: NOT EVERYBODY HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT ONE DOCTOR.
Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban doctors before this gets completely out of hand!!!!

Out of concern for the public at large, I have withheld statistics on lawyers for fear the shock would cause people to panic and seek medical attention.


C'mon TX.. You know people are in peril when they visit the doc.. Hell they have a problem they need fixed. Do you know how many people are about to die when they enter the docs office anyway??

AND that said ACCIDENT. I can control MY weapon it's those thugs waiting beside some pantrys I'm worried about.. Hell there was like 180 homocides in Charlotte last year.. Surely that holds NO candle to NY, Philly, Chicago, or Houston..


Just sayin..

bigmac
01-08-2008, 09:28 PM
Here's one for bigmac!!!! :D :D



Doctors:

(A) The number of doctors in the U.S. is 700,000.
(B) Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year are 120,000.
(C) Accidental deaths per physicians is 17.14%.

Statistics courtesy of the U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services.

Guns:

(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000 (yes, that's 80 MILLION).
(B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500.
(C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is 0.001875%

Statistics courtesy of the FBI

So statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

Remember, guns don't kill people, doctors do.

FACT: NOT EVERYBODY HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT ONE DOCTOR.
Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban doctors before this gets completely out of hand!!!!

Out of concern for the public at large, I have withheld statistics on lawyers for fear the shock would cause people to panic and seek medical attention.


I doubt that's true. Not that many doctors carry guns.

TX.X-30 fan
01-08-2008, 09:40 PM
I doubt that's true. Not that many doctors carry guns.



Pretty sure I know one that does??? ;)



Monte, It was just a bs e-mail I thought doc might enjoy. :D

Monte
01-08-2008, 09:43 PM
Pretty sure I know one that does??? ;)



Monte, It was just a bs e-mail I thought doc might enjoy. :D

Yep I saw that in the end:o After I actually read about half I got irritated.. Posted, then was too busy buyng stuff on ebay to take it back.. Darn my non-complete reading arse:rolleyes:

atlfootr
01-09-2008, 01:39 AM
Ah, just taze em'. It worked for the U of F police on the mouthy guy. :uglyhamme"Don't Taze ME, Bro!" :eek3:

bigmac
01-09-2008, 08:04 AM
Pretty sure I know one that does??? ;)




Yeah, but I've never shot a patient.

Ric
01-09-2008, 08:29 AM
I think you maybe mistaken, you can carry it in plain sight not concealed. In Louisiana this applies to your vehicle or YOUR PERSON. They don't advertise it but you can literally strap on a holster and go gunslinger style. Except the schools and govt. buildings. I think Brian was referring for the lack of need for a permit in certain situations, not how you carry the firearm if you actually have a permit.

brat
01-09-2008, 10:28 AM
I was referring to the fact that you don't need a permit to carry it OPENLY, in your car or on your person.

Ric
01-09-2008, 11:17 AM
I was referring to the fact that you don't need a permit to carry it OPENLY, in your car or on your person. do you still think he was mistaken?