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Ben
02-11-2005, 04:24 PM
I'm currently in process of doing some remodeling that will include a 2nd floor addition over my garage, and want to hang my trailer (without boat) from the ceiling for storage while boat is in the water. I was curious if anyone had seen anything done before or had any ideas.

The current plan is for 16" tall pre-fab wood I-joists for the ceiling. I'm trying to find a way to mount pulley's to the top (compression) side of the joists to pull the boat up with. One idea is a metal plate to span 2 or three of the joists at 3 locations to support the trailer. Then I could fasten a bolt or hook to the plate. Another idea is to replace 2 of the wood joists with steel I-beams and just weld something onto them. High steel prices probably would knock that one down though.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be welcome. I'm gonna figure 800 lbs or so for the tongue and 600 lbs or so for each back corner to give a saftey factor of about 2 for most calculations.

jayderwin1
02-11-2005, 04:41 PM
do you have a boat dock you keep the boat at or do you just take it out for the day? what kind of trailer do you have?

Ben
02-13-2005, 11:24 PM
House is on the lake, so boat will be on a lift / hoist. '94 MC trailer. THe lot is very small, so I don't want to leave the trailer in the driveway / yard.

iokua
02-14-2005, 01:07 AM
Will there be anything directly on top of the joists? Have the joists been engineered taking into account the weight of the trailer? If not, span as many joists as you can to distribute the weight.

It sounds like you have the right idea.....I would not go with steel as you mentioned.....we've seen steel prices double in the last year in the commercial construction market.

skimax
02-14-2005, 01:27 AM
I've seen this done before with the boat in a garage in Discovery Bay, Ca He had two ski boats on trailers hanging up above and was able to park two cars beneath.

AirJunky
02-14-2005, 02:05 AM
A neighbor of mine does this with a Hobie Cat trailer. He has the cable/pulley system in place & uses his truck to hoist the trailer up, then hooks shorter chains to the trailer to hold it up, and then releases the cable system.
Obviously this trailer is a lot less than yours. But I'm sure if you spread the load over several joists like your saying, it should work great.
Makes me wonder if it's possible to do in a carport I want to build in the near future!

Ben
02-14-2005, 08:23 AM
Above the garage will be a storage room / attic (full height), so the joists will be on 16" centers. Since it is storage, I can have stuff coming through the floor if need be, for example, a cutout for the bow stop. The trailer will need to go up as high as possible, to clear the door when it's open. I'm planning to remove the guideposts to store it.

I have a pully setup at the current house for the truck cap, so I can remove / store it by myself, but I just bolted lagbolts into the bottom of the trusses since it only weighs about 200 lbs or so. Need to think a bit more for the 900 lb approx trailer. The main question is how to distribute the load over the top flange of a few beams. Probably will be 16" tall beams, I'll do all the math and stuff, then send it in for approval. The beams are really spec'd for distributed loading, which is why a steel plate sounds good, to spread it out nicely...

Thrall
02-14-2005, 10:59 AM
Ben,
You definately need to have the joist system engineered for the add'l load. TJI's (Truss joists, as you described) are not your best choice for a hoist point. ANy cutting or modification will render them useless. If you ned 16" deep to span the garage, it's a pretty good span. Look at replacing a couple of the joists with LVL (Laminated Veneer Lumber) beams designed to accept the additional load.

iokua
02-14-2005, 03:27 PM
My only suggestion would be to think about using tube steel, angle iron, or C channel instead of steel plate across the top of the joists. Stronger shapes will spread the weight out more evenly across however many joists you decide to span. The plate will want to bend sooner and put more/most of the weight on the two joists adjacent to the lifting point.

Ron Grover
02-14-2005, 04:13 PM
I am not an engineer but I have done quite a bit of construction in my career.

HAVE YOU HAD AN ENGINEER CALCULATE LOAD CAPACITIES ON THE GARAGE STRUCTURE? I WOULD BET THE STRUCTURE WAS NOT DESIGNED TO ACCOMODATE THAT TYPE OF LOAD vertically or laterally!

Without the proper prep and engineering I can envison a picture of your trailer sitting on top of your car and your garage on top of your trailer.

My advice would be to check out a lift. No engineering and if you move you take it apart and take it with you. Plus no pulleys and hoists putting strain on your house structure.

As a FYI, (not endorsing this company) I did a quick search on google and for under $2000 a 4 post lift can be bought. http://www.directlift.com/

Just my $.02

Ron

Professor
02-14-2005, 04:30 PM
I am not an engineer but I have done quite a bit of construction in my career.

HAVE YOU HAD AN ENGINEER CALCULATE LOAD CAPACITIES ON THE GARAGE STRUCTURE? I WOULD BET THE STRUCTURE WAS NOT DESIGNED TO ACCOMODATE THAT TYPE OF LOAD vertically or laterally!

Without the proper prep and engineering I can envison a picture of your trailer sitting on top of your car and your garage on top of your trailer.

My advice would be to check out a lift. No engineering and if you move you take it apart and take it with you. Plus no pulleys and hoists putting strain on your house structure.

As a FYI, (not endorsing this company) I did a quick search on google and for under $2000 a 4 post lift can be bought. http://www.directlift.com/

Just my $.02

Ron
Definitely, and you mentioned that you would “do all the math and stuff, then send it in for approval,” but I don’t think the P&Z/engineering department will sign off on the plans…if that is where you are sending it? Govt office is more interested in the ‘minimum standards.” But hey, if I am wrong please let me know. There is always a first time for govt employees to be that helpful (yea, I am one).

ski_king
02-14-2005, 04:35 PM
As a FYI, (not endorsing this company) I did a quick search on google and for under $2000 a 4 post lift can be bought. http://www.directlift.com/
I was thinking the same. I know somebody (fellow MasterCraft owner) who has a 2 post version and double stacks his cars in the garage.

It will also come in handy when changing oil, etc.

iokua
02-14-2005, 05:41 PM
I thought of the lift too, but you may have to reinforce the slab or even pour some footings......however, that could also depend on the 2 leg vs. 4 leg lift. Then again, I could just be blowin' smoke.

Food for thought.


EDIT: One lift manufacturer I found calls for a minimum 4" thick slab with 3000lb concrete. Most slabs should meet this requirement, but some may not. Not that i'm arguing against your ideas....I would love to have one in my garage........

Ben
02-15-2005, 08:13 AM
The lift idea is interesting, although I'm anticipating being well under the $2K mark. However, 4" slab of 3000psi min (4000 psi is std here), is typical for a garage or driveway if anyone is interested. Personally, I'd go to 6" min in the area of the post, probably 12" to support a more substantial lift. However, I don't want the posts in the middle of the 2 car garage, and if I dropped 2K on this, I'd have to sell the house anyway due to the divorce that would be in process....

So, I'm back to the original plan. I like the LVL (aka microlam) idea previously mentioned. On the calculation note, fortunately, I'm an engineer (with a tendency to overdo things), so when I mentioned I'd do the calcs, it may have been a bit of an understatement. I'll be sending it in for a 10,000 ft above sanity check, if req'd to order the mat'l. The people at the counter were a bit leery at first to sell me TJI's for the 2nd floor I put on the house until I showed them my dwgs. Again, this will basically be new construction, so I can put whatever I want / need in place, that is economic of course. One design advantage is the trailer will be on one side of the garage, so only one support will be in the middle of the garage, especially if I bring the bow of the trailer over against the wall.

Anyway, the idea mentioned to spread the load out w/c-channel or angle is a good one that I'll probably do, I just wanted to see if anyone had any creative ideas. It is currently looking (in my mind) like a steel c-channel box of some sort setting in the attic room with either some cheap electric winches, or 1000# bow cranks to pull up the 3 points of the trailer. Then I'll lock it in place with short chains or straps, and the lift cables will be the redundancy.

Keep up the good conversation, maybe we can come up with an inexpensive system to sell to make money for boat gas....

ski_king
02-15-2005, 08:23 AM
Looks like you got it covered Ben, I am sure it will work fine.

Have you remembered the area the garage door will in the up position?

Ben
02-15-2005, 09:03 AM
Yeah, that is a final thing I need to layout. 8' door + about a foot or so for the door to open + 10' ceiling = tight fit. Planning to have a little cubby hole between 2 of the joists for the bow stop thing on the trailer to go up into... Good call though, would be a quick way to turn the garage into a carport.

Hope my previous post didn't sound overbearing, I appreciate all the comments / input. I'm a bit of an overkill / overdetail engineering type.

iokua
02-15-2005, 11:45 AM
Ben,

What kind of Engineer are you? I'm an M.E. but could never stand working in an office. It never hurts to "overthink" things and get others' opinions. The more the better.

Another thing I thought of; you could intall some GL (Glu-lam = laminated beam) beams in the ceilings in addition to the TJI's that would be specifically for the trailer. It may be overkill, but you can usually find some GL's in the classifieds from a cancelled project or something. Then you may be able to just wrap some straps around the GL's.

Good Luck.

Thrall
02-15-2005, 12:01 PM
Ben,
Regardless of whether the ceiling joists are running longitudinally or laterally, I think 2 appropriately sized Microlams would carry the trailer weight easily. You could hoist the trailer with a conventional chain hoist (engine hoist), if you made a small spreader beam to catch the pick points on the trailer and hoist from the center w/ a chain hoist between the joists. You would also need the same type of spreader beam (moveable) above the joists to bear on the microlams. You could make a 4 U shaped steel straps to hang over the Micros to actually hang the trailer from.
With this setup, you would have nothing permanently protruding thru the floor in the attic space. Only 2 holes in the floor/ceiling where the chain hoist attaches to the spreader beams.
Materials needed would be 2 LVL beams, 1 chain hoist, 4 steel "U" straps w/ hitch pins, 4 lengths of chain w/ clevis'/carabiners to hang the trailer, 1 length of chain to attach hoist to top spreader thru ceiling, and 2 spreader beams 6-7' long to (1) attach to trlr and (2) spread load to LVL's when hoisting.
This would require that you lift the trailer in stages, moving front to back a couple times until the trlr is up in place, or w/ 2 chain hoists and 3 or 4 spreaders the trailer could be lifted both ends simultaneously.
I bet you could build the whole thing for around $500 for all materials and hardware.
Another thing to consider is, if you are not planning on finishing the garage ceiling (drywall) or putting a hard flooring in the attic area (tile/hardwood), you can size the beams (Micros or whatever) for a less stringent deflection criteria (say L/180 instead of L/360) and save a couple more bucks.

Ben
02-15-2005, 01:08 PM
Now we're making progress....

iokua, I'm also an ME, and put up with the office stuff. I'm brave enough to hang my trailer over my car, but haven't been brave enough to venture away from the same check twice a month....

Thrall, I really like that idea. I hadn't thought of only one point in the rear, I think that is what you were suggesting... I would need an extra body to keep it balanced during hoisting though. U-straps seem good too, the required portion could protrude past the drywall, so it would be clean. It will be finished eventually in case part of the attic ends up living space (the 1/2 where the trailer isn't). Plus, I already have an engine hoist. An alternative to LVL's a co-worker told me his father (in construction) has done is to use liquid nails & plywood to make a LVL out of a TJI. Seems interesting, ever heard of that? I'm wondering what a 25' LVL 16" tall will weigh. I had some 8' x 12" ones for headers to the 2nd floor, and they are pretty stout.

Keep it coming, thanks.

Thrall
02-15-2005, 02:37 PM
Ben,
You wouldn't need anyone to steady the trailer the way I'm describing. If the trailer is hung from 4 pts, while you lifted one end, the other would be steadied by the 2 chains supporting it. This is assuming that you have to lift each end separately, a few feet at a time. The trlr would always be supported by 3 pts, keeping it from rotating.
Good idea w/ multiple TJI's made into a beam. I do remember, a long time ago, one of the houses I built had TJI's doubled up w/ plywood filling the web space between the two joists. Just glued and nailed it together like a header. It was used to support add'l load from a second floor bearing wall.

mika
02-28-2005, 02:47 PM
I might be missing something here but let me add my 2 cents. Have you considered looking at something like an Eagle Lift or something like that.

Here is a link http://eagleequip.com/page/EE/CTGY/LI-SS


This option might be a more cost effective one for you.

Ben
02-28-2005, 04:36 PM
Thanks for the suggestion, but in addition to costing way more than I was hoping for, I don't think I'd be able to open the garage door & the 4 posts would be in the way for everything else.

I'm hoping to do this for under $200. I'm redoing the garage anyway, the trailer hoist is a slight modification that will include key placement of a few beefed up joists & some sort of winch in three places to pick it up.

However, someday, I would like to have a large hoist in my 6 car garage. Need the property & the 6 car garage first though. Funding for that is many moons off...

Leroy
02-28-2005, 05:06 PM
Interesting stuff!

This hoist is pretty inexpensive. This with a 2-1 pulley system on each lifting point gives you net 3000 pounds lift and 39 ft of cable should give almost 20 ft of lift.

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=6970&productId=200307347&R=200307347&langId=-1
Another concept would be to fix one end of the lift to the ceiling, have ramps to pull the trailer up and then raise the front end only.

Cloaked
02-28-2005, 05:58 PM
Interesting stuff!

This hoist is pretty inexpensive. This with a 2-1 pulley system on each lifting point gives you net 3000 pounds lift and 39 ft of cable should give almost 20 ft of lift.

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=6970&productId=200307347&R=200307347&langId=-1
Another concept would be to fix one end of the lift to the ceiling, have ramps to pull the trailer up and then raise the front end only.Leroy, I agree, that's the ticket. I have a 14' tall ceiling in my center bay with engineered roof trusses to span 42 feet. That would be the ideal lift for me (thanks Leroy, I'm on it) to place in one area, make the lift, secure the load and move it elsewhere for another use. I too need a spot for my topper. Good ideas in this thread. Upon truss installation I added 2 sets of 2 - 2" x 12" x 30' overhead spans to distribute anticipated overhead loads just for this topic of discussion. Pics below show a vague idea of what I have for use. The trusses are engineered to support 2100 lbs. each support span (one set of 2 on each side of the center bay) with load distribution. :cool:
I have a larger pic but limits here do not allow. A nice suggestion is to add ".rar" to the file types for uploading. A much better zip than WinZip.... (.zip).

jimmer2880
03-01-2005, 07:07 AM
Leroy, I agree, that's the ticket. I have a 14' tall ceiling in my center bay with engineered roof trusses to span 42 feet. That would be the ideal lift for me (thanks Leroy, I'm on it) to place in one area, make the lift, secure the load and move it elsewhere for another use. I too need a spot for my topper. Good ideas in this thread. Upon truss installation I added 2 sets of 2 - 2" x 12" x 30' overhead spans to distribute anticipated overhead loads just for this topic of discussion. Pics below show a vague idea of what I have for use. The trusses are engineered to support 2100 lbs. each support span (one set of 2 on each side of the center bay) with load distribution. :cool:
I have a larger pic but limits here do not allow. A nice suggestion is to add ".rar" to the file types for uploading. A much better zip than WinZip.... (.zip).

that's just rude showing off your extrememly nice garage like that! That thing is HUGE! Wish mine was that big! :eek:

Evan Jones
03-01-2005, 10:06 AM
Now we're making progress....

iokua, I'm also an ME, and put up with the office stuff. I'm brave enough to hang my trailer over my car, but haven't been brave enough to venture away from the same check twice a month....

Thrall, I really like that idea. I hadn't thought of only one point in the rear, I think that is what you were suggesting... I would need an extra body to keep it balanced during hoisting though. U-straps seem good too, the required portion could protrude past the drywall, so it would be clean. It will be finished eventually in case part of the attic ends up living space (the 1/2 where the trailer isn't). Plus, I already have an engine hoist. An alternative to LVL's a co-worker told me his father (in construction) has done is to use liquid nails & plywood to make a LVL out of a TJI. Seems interesting, ever heard of that? I'm wondering what a 25' LVL 16" tall will weigh. I had some 8' x 12" ones for headers to the 2nd floor, and they are pretty stout.

Keep it coming, thanks.
16" LVL = 8.1 lbs / ft = 203 lb for a 25' pc We sell them for about $6.75 per foot at my lumberyard in Massachusetts = about $170.00 each. Sounds like a great project.

Ben
07-11-2007, 06:47 PM
Well, about 2 years, 2 new babies, 1 lake house major redo finished (evenings & weekends), 1 old house sold, 1 truck & car sold, 1 minivan bought later.... I got it done.

Ended up using 16" Microlams (aka LVL's). I would have used one per beam, but was told I needed to double them to meet code. Steel beams were slightly cheaper but would have been more complicated to hook up the floor/ceiling to, not to mention lifting. I need to recheck my #'s, but I think 2 of these Microlams possibly have the capability to lift the boat for waxing.

Used 1200# winches (yellow straps) for about $15 ea, 3000# ratchet straps (black straps) as safety's ($5 each.), some leftover 3" PCV pipe through the floor for sleeves, and some scrap wood. I'm also going to add chain safteys to replace the nylon ones in the event of fire or humidity takes its toll on the nylon.

I can't figure out how to get more than 1 picture to show up????

I was very happy that everything worked, considering my trailer was out of state for winter storage when I drew the plans and put op the joists & framed in the "pockets" for the bow stop & v-block.

Ben
07-11-2007, 06:52 PM
other pics

Ben
07-11-2007, 06:55 PM
more.......

M-Funf
07-11-2007, 07:03 PM
Very nice work! So, did you use just one winch for all lift points, or multiple winches?

If you used three, you may want to consider a "remodel" later using one electric winch with a pulley that can pull on three cables. That would eliminate the concern about fire or humidity, and make it easier to lift the boat...

Ben
07-11-2007, 09:56 PM
3 winches. 1 winch or 1 rod connecting 3 cables would be ideal, but given the fact I only will do this once or twice a year, it may be a while until the "remodel". It's actually not that bad to crank up - although I was pretty excited it was working it may have been more work than I thought...

Kevin 89MC
07-13-2007, 05:41 PM
Well that's one of the cooler things I've seen! Nice job! Thanks for sharing.

Sodar
07-13-2007, 06:06 PM
Very Nice Ben!! What height ceilings are those? How much clearance is below the tires? How long did it take you to winch it up?

Ben
07-16-2007, 10:46 PM
Very Nice Ben!! What height ceilings are those? How much clearance is below the tires? How long did it take you to winch it up?

Thanks, fun project I finally squeezed in the time for...

10' ceiling. 8' door with special order "low ceiling" mount setup to make sure the trailer fit between it & the ceiling when open. 89" to tires, next lowest point is 94" to the prop guard on the trailer.

Maybe 5-7 minutes to winch up, a lot quicker than I expected. Took a few trips up and down the ladder to get the safety straps in place.