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OhioProstar
08-04-2004, 05:46 PM
http://www.womenswallstreet.com/WWS/article_landing.aspx?titleid=1&articleid=711

JimN
08-04-2004, 11:28 PM
If there were that many air marshalls, etc onboard, why didn't at least one of them go into the can and see if the Syrians had left anything in there? I think it would be interesting for someone to follow up on this story and see what happened when the "suspicious characters" flew back east. Not to be "racist", but when just about every time an attack on the US is performed, it's by Middle Eastern men, between the ages of 18 and 45. It's time to stop worrying about whether we're offending someone by "profiling" and tell the ACLU to start worrying about the majority, not the few whiners who are so thin skinned that any time something bad happens to them, the whole country has to change their life. They won't even let someone with 2 DUI's into Canada from the US so they can go downhill skiing. How much of a national threat is that? On the other hand, at least one of the 9-11 hijackers went through Canada on the way to their final destination without being thoroughly questioned. I'm not saying that Canada should lighten up. I'm just commenting that the ACLU and others like them make it impossible to control the kind of people who cross the US borders, for fear of offending someone. The Constitution was written for the masses(such as the masses were at the time) and not for the few who were overly sensitive.

stevo137
08-04-2004, 11:35 PM
Jim,
If you are not in politics already, please do so ASAP! I have a feeling you have (been around)! You have my vote!

jimmer2880
08-05-2004, 07:21 AM
Jimn for President! :headbang:

bradamerry
08-05-2004, 07:58 AM
Agreed Jim, The US has got to tighten up the borders. I would rather upset a few thin skin people, than have another 9/11.

jimmer2880
08-05-2004, 10:00 AM
That's right... tell them to su(k it up & walk it off! Life is meant to be tough - get used to it & quit trying to put pamper's on everything for us!:mad:


Come to think of it - quit trying to put pampers on me! :o (well - I'm not quite old enough for them - yet....)

east tx skier
08-05-2004, 10:10 AM
I usually stay out of the political discussions (is that what this is?), but I remember reading a Peggy Noonan article a couple of years ago where she said something along the lines of, If these attacks had been carried out by blonde, forty-year-old women, who dressed in t-shirts and jeans, I'd (she'd) fully expect them to question me (her) every time I (she) stepped on a plane, and I (she) would just learn to deal with it.

I've been pulled out of line twice before one flight, and on several ocassions otherwise. They always want to search me. I guess I look like a trouble-maker. Do I care? No! You know why? Because I don't have plans to do anything other than sit on that plane and drink a bloody mary. Now granted, I'm not a member of what you might call a protected class. And so, some might say, I don't have any reason to be sensitive and I just don't understand. But I'll set the example. Go ahead and search me. I've got nothing to hide, and I understand why they have to do it.

bcampbe7
08-05-2004, 10:16 AM
I can say for myself that I would not have a problem with getting stopped every time I boarded a plane if it were white 18-40 year old males doing the terrorizing.

Knoxes
08-05-2004, 10:23 AM
This isn't an issue of racial profiling as much as a risk of abandoning some of the principles on which this country was founded. I think we frequently lack proper foresight with issues like this. We are quick to react to the problems at hand, but rarely look 50 years ahead to see where we'll be then. We also assume too much. Specifically, that white, Protestant, middle class will always be the majority in American and that's not necessarily true. It's entirely possible that "we" (even though I'm not Protestant hehe), become the minority, and having placed legislation or even worse, precident, suffer the same atrocities that we've committed against minorities in this country. Regarding the closing of borders, again we frequently fail to consider the ramifications. The steady flow of immigrants is what made this country successful. We mistakenly assume that all immigrants are uneducated, poor and unskilled and that's simply not true. Many have become very valuable members of the American public. I have several personal examples.

All I'm asking is that we think long and hard before making any decisions based on ethnicity.

<end rant>

OhioProstar
08-05-2004, 12:28 PM
Knoxes I agree in principle with what you are saying. This is the land of the free and people will always strive to live here, but quite frankly unless you harbor ill fillings for the USA you shouldn't have much of a problem answering some additional questions about what you are doing here. I do this every time I travel to Mexico, UK, EU without much thought as to "are they singling me out". The fact of the matter is I expect people to ask what my intentions are when I am not in the good old USofA. The same should apply to folks traveling on a Visa in America. They are here under the govn'ts permission and it is not their right. There needs to be a balance, but currently the threat is being directed by a very tight demographic. If you happen to fall in the group and are not involved in anything shady then by all means enjoy your stay here in America...if not be on notice that we will be watching you with more eyes than someone from Sweden or Australia.

east tx skier
08-05-2004, 12:39 PM
Knoxes, I do not discount what you're saying. I liken it to what a buddy of mine used to say ... Do you think, however many years ago, when the people of California approved legislation banning cigarette ads on billboards, that they envisioned a time when they would not be permitted to smoke on the beach?

Yet, I disagree with the stated policy (the story's, not yours) that not more than two of the fellas on the flight in question could be detained for further questioning because they were Middle Eastern. (it's been a while since i've read that story, but didn't it mention something about that).

Again, I've been pulled out of line for searches on numerous ocassions. Now if I'm walking down the street and that happens, I'm protesting. I get pulled over in my car without cause, hauled out, and searched, I'm protesting. But quite frankly, when I'm getting on a plane, I'll play by their rules. They can have a look in my bag. They can ask me all the questions they want. I'll show up a little earlier.

Knoxes
08-05-2004, 02:11 PM
I think the ideal is that decisions are not based on ethnicity. We shouldn't assume that since he's acting strangely AND Middle Eastern, that he's a terrorist. That's unfair. I wouldn't stand to be treated in this manner, so I certainly hope I would extend that same courtesy to others. The principles at stake here cannot be sacrificed - freedom from unlawful search and seizure and innocence until proven guilty. I will risk discomfort and some security to insure that those principles remain intact well beyond my years here. Twenty years from now, this country will have a different enemy, probably with a different skin color, religion or facial feature. Then again, maybe they won't look any different from you and me. Maybe they'll look just like a MidWestern family man. And then you and I will be eyed everywhere we go, cops will unbutton the hammer strap on their guns when they see us, people will treat us with disdain and prejudice, we won't be able to go into stores, restaurants, buildings without being watched the entire time... That's why this is so important.

<end rant #2> hehe.

p.s. I like you guys. You're so civil. The last board I was on, this would have devolved into childish name calling by the 3rd post.

OhioProstar
08-05-2004, 02:23 PM
It is better to be silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt

east tx skier
08-05-2004, 02:29 PM
I've never really trusted those mid-westerners, either.

Flame war in 3, 2, ....

bcampbe7
08-05-2004, 02:29 PM
Knoxes-
While I appreciate your point, and think it is very valid, I also feel that certainlly not all "Middle Eastern" looking individuals are terrorists, but all of the terrorists responsible for the current threat to the US are "Middle Eastern" looking. That being said if the police respond to a bank robbery and the suspects fled in a yellow Ford Econoline Van, they are not going to be on the lookout for a red Yugo. In order to be "safe" in this land of the free, particularly while flying, why shouldn't every other "Middle Eastern" looking individual be searched. I'm with Doug in that I don't have a problem with being searched everytime I get on a plane. Let's not discriminate, let's search everyone. Those that throw a hissy-fit every time they get searched are exactly the ones that need to be searched.
I'm not trying to light a fire, just speaking my opinion. I would welcome any race, religion, or culture into my house, and boat for that matter.
:twocents:

Dan K
08-05-2004, 02:47 PM
Doug,
you were probably pulled out of line because your a lawyer. :D

Knoxes
08-05-2004, 02:48 PM
Ohio - hehe. Nobody's ever mistaken me for the SILENT foolish type...

bcamp - Maybe you don't have a problem being searched getting on a plane today, or tomorrow. The risk, again, is long term. Each little specific freedom removed for valid security purposes, opens up the possibility of a dozen other little specific freedoms being removed, until we find we can't turn around without proper documentation. I'm not suggesting that we don't search ANYBODY. I'm just saying that we should think long and hard before we make a habit of anything that involves revoking our personal rights. I know the extremes don't seem possible, but if you consider some of the things we've done as a country, under the guise of national security, it's not that far-fetched. For example, during WWII, we rounded up 120,000 Japanese Americans and imprisoned them. Half of them were children. How crazy is that?

p.s. Again, it's such a relief to have a civil discourse...

bcampbe7
08-05-2004, 02:52 PM
Yeah, unfortunately I live very close to the AF Base where a lot of those individuals were imprisoned. It's pretty eery to drive by the cement foundations that are left.

east tx skier
08-05-2004, 02:53 PM
"Finally, the captain announced that the plane was cleared for landing. It had been four hours since we left Detroit. The fasten seat belt light came on and I could see downtown Los Angeles. The flight attendants made one final sweep of the cabin and strapped themselves in for landing. I began to relax. Home was in sight."

"Suddenly, seven of the men stood up -- in unison -- and walked to the front and back lavatories. One by one, they went into the two lavatories, each spending about four minutes inside."

....

"Due to our rules against discrimination, [it is] the policy today to fine airlines if they have more than two young Arab males in secondary questioning because that's discriminatory."

If I recall, it, at least at some point in time after 9/11, was against the law to get out of your seat 30 minutes after take-off or 30 minutes before landing. If I'm correct, and that's still the law, then it should have been enforced irrespective of ethnicity.

OhioProstar
08-05-2004, 03:08 PM
Doug I travel to the tune of 100+ flight per year and the 30 minute rule is only in effect for certain flights such as Washington Reagan since the flight plan puts you right next to the Capitol buildings. Some flights in NYC such as the Boston/LGA shuttle and some flights into Atlanta. Other than that it is common to see people grabbing a last minute bathroom break up until a few miles out. It is VERY un-common, and for me would be unnerving, for a whole group of people getting out of their seats right at time of arrival. Quite frankly I don't understand why the pilot didn't just get on the loudspeaker and say something to the effect of "due to FAA regulations all passengers must be seated in 5 minutes" to take care of that situation. All the things that I have heard about this situation lead me to believe that the FBI and FAA were on to these people from the start and they wanted to see what they were going to try. It is also very unusual for more than a couple Air Marshals to be on a flight which leads me to that assertion.

JimN
08-05-2004, 03:41 PM
Doug- if you don't trust mid-westerners, you should have said so before. I take back every good thing I ever said about you. :uglyhamme

I wasn't saying that we should close the borders. I mean that there needs to be an effort to make sure that whoever comes in should be able to support their lifestyle and not just be a drain on the government programs and the economy. It's bad enough that nearly $1B will be spent on the elections this year. If the government wants to subsidize farmers to not grow crops, why not just buy their output and use it for food banks and to sell to whoever wants to buy it, instead? I'm not in favor of just giving things away to people who don't want to improve their life and skills enough to move up the ladder. Enough people are making such ridiculously bad decisions that they'll never get any farther in life than they are now. As if that weren't bad enough, so many people are popping out kids that have no hope of a good life that the problem will perpetuate itself for a long time. Of course, there are examples of someone from this kind of background making fantastic strides in life, but it's a small number by comparison. I'm also tired of seeing people in the checkout line at grocery stores buying big thick steaks, booze and tabloids with food stamps, when they're already drunk(I'm not making this up), then telling the checker to count up their stamps and not taking everything because they didn't have enough.

When I was talking about the majority of attacks on the US, I honestly can't remember a single one that killed a lot of people or did major property damage that wasn't of Middle Eastern origin, other than acts of war. Robert Kennedy- Sirhan Sirhan. Lockerby- Libyan. 2 attacks on the World Trade Center- Arab. USS Cole- Arab. US Embassy bombing in Beirut- Arab. The railway bombing in Spain- same. The Olympic attack in Berlin-Palestinian, although it wasn't aimed at the US.

The article spoke of the Middle Eastern men acting very strangely. If people are acting that way, they should be questioned. If someone is all bundled up like it's winter and it's actually the middle of summer in a hot area, they should be questioned. I mention this because of actually hearing the police saying that this should be reported, but if the person has a medical reason for being bundled up this way, fine. No problem. If they are sweating their nuggets off and they're bundled up, there's something going on and I want someone to find out what it is.

The terrorists are obviously banking on the fact that in the US, we have so much more of everything they want, especially freedom of movement and speech, that they have little fear of being stopped and/or questioned as they would in their homeland unless they're doing something wrong in the first place. They also take the time to find out how the security system works and then use it to their advantage. A lot of the world really doesn't like the US. They gladly take our aid, though. Sometimes they act like they're friendly, but they don't like much about us. Yet people from just about every country want to come here. It's really a case of the few, really screwing it up for everyone else.

I don't want the freedoms here to be lost, either and the more we wall ourselves in to be more secure, the less free we become. There just needs to be a better method of keeping the loonies from taking over the asylum(with apologies to Canadian currency).

captkidd
08-05-2004, 03:43 PM
Here's my :twocents: :

If I lived in India and a group of extremely handsome American terrorists had hijacked several planes and flown them into the Taj Mahal, then I would expect to be searched each time I boarded a plane, entered a government facility, etc. If I didn't like it then I would just have to move elsewhere (or disfigure my face).

Freedom ain't free.

east tx skier
08-05-2004, 04:13 PM
Well, except for you, Jim! Keep saying good things about me. :D

east tx skier
08-05-2004, 04:19 PM
When I was talking about the majority of attacks on the US, I honestly can't remember a single one that killed a lot of people or did major property damage that wasn't of Middle Eastern origin, other than acts of war.

Jim, not to be contrary or disagreeable, but I guess I should point out Oklahoma City.

André
08-05-2004, 05:17 PM
...Was just about to mention it too.
Jim
A Canadian with a single DUI can't go skiing in Vermont an hour from here!

Knoxes
08-05-2004, 05:42 PM
And I think we could easily toss in the Maryland snipers, the Olympic park bomber and the Unibomber as terrorists. All killed indiscriminately. For that matter, might as well include any one of the hundreds of hate groups or even unorganized individuals or small groups acting toward a common goal of hate or supression.

This country is full of insane fundamentalists, too.

bradamerry
08-05-2004, 05:45 PM
Our world is turned inside out. :confused: I hate to say it, but it will only get worse!! :eek: :eek: Not alot of levelheaded people running the governments of the world. They all think in terms of ME and not WE.

Knoxes
08-05-2004, 05:56 PM
It may get worse before it gets better, but peace is inevitable.

adieu, my friends. It's been fun today.

bradamerry
08-05-2004, 06:20 PM
We can only hope you are right.

lakes Rick
08-05-2004, 07:25 PM
Ohio - hehe. Nobody's ever mistaken me for the SILENT foolish type...

For example, during WWII, we rounded up 120,000 Japanese Americans and imprisoned them. Half of them were children. How crazy is that?

p.s. Again, it's such a relief to have a civil discourse...

Knoxes, you and I were not alive then so you and I have NO right to make any comments.. MY dad was alive then... He said America was just waiting for the Japs to invade the west coast.. Remember enemies then DID look different from us.... It is proven that Jap spies were in Hawaii and helped to determine that our Carriers were not in Pearl, ( which saved our bacon)... This has nothing to do with race.... BUT I bet your life would be real different if the Japs had won the war.. I can guarantee that they are/were racist as hell and would have had no problem enslaving you round eye..... Quit making the white man the only bad guy...

JimN
08-05-2004, 10:02 PM
Doug- I had forgotten about the Oklahoma City bombing, but I was referring more to ongoing attacks. That was his way of retaliating for Waco and Ruby Ridge. By comparison, even as bad as Oklahoma City was, it's still a small fraction of what has happened to the World Trade Center(twice), USS Cole, Beirut, etc.

The Unibomber didn't send those bombs to random people. They were definitely his chosen targets, although a few other people were added as casualties. Aside from the geographical similarities of the Middle Eastern terrorists, the fact that John Muhammad practices Islam and sympathizes with the terrorists can't be ignored. No, I'm not saying that Islam is the reason they are attacking the US. I'm going for the fact that he sympathizes with the terrorists and their warped version of that religion. Yes, there are extreme fundamentalists in the US, but they aren't attacking other countries because of the differences.

Andre'- is it the Canadian gov't or American gov't that won't let a Canadian w/ a DUI go to Vermont? If it's the American, I'm surprised, since there are people here who have 5 or more DUI's and just can't seem to stop, let alone pay the penalty for it until they kill someone. As an example, the Attorney General here in Wisconsin was pulled over and arrested for DUI. She was doing a blistering 15 MPH and put her car in a ditch. You think they got rid of her? NOPE! She paid her fine and took a little heat for driving a state-owned car on her own time.

Rick- the Japanese carried out some small scale attacks on California. The Germans shelled oil refineries in Texas before the Allied Forces were able to defend against their U Boats, according to the show on The History Channel last night. But again, those were acts during wartime. There hasn't been a formal declaration by any other countries against the US lately.

Knoxes
08-06-2004, 12:03 AM
Knoxes, you and I were not alive then so you and I have NO right to make any comments.. MY dad was alive then... He said America was just waiting for the Japs to invade the west coast.. Remember enemies then DID look different from us.... It is proven that Jap spies were in Hawaii and helped to determine that our Carriers were not in Pearl, ( which saved our bacon)... This has nothing to do with race.... BUT I bet your life would be real different if the Japs had won the war.. I can guarantee that they are/were racist as hell and would have had no problem enslaving you round eye..... Quit making the white man the only bad guy...

Actually, Rick, I think it's extraordinarily important that we DO talk about those things. We talk about so that we don't repeat it. So we don't do things like lock up every former member of the military because one lunatic thought he needed to blow up a federal building in OK, or another thought JFK needed killin', or another one slaughtered his wife and kids.... And I'm sure you're right that SOME members of every ethnic group are racist, but, just like the above example, it's not only unfair, but illogical to make generalizations about groups based on the actions of a small portion. To take this to the most ludicrous extreme, ask a German about the American male and he'll envision David Hasselhoff! heh. (lawd, I wish it weren't true). We are certainly not the only bad guy, but we're surely not lily-white clean either. I hope I don't give the impression that I've condemned white America, because, as the "ruling party" of this country and a leader (among many) of the world, I think we've done a pretty good job. But we aren't, and never should be, beyond reproach. Why, that would be so undemocratic and it smells strangely of totalitarianism.

OhioProstar
08-06-2004, 09:44 AM
Good insights Knoxes. I think we can all agree that something needs to be done to protect us in this turbulant time, especially from radical Islamic Terrorists. We may have to agree to disagree on how it is done and it is true that if you don't understand the past and be capable of applying it to the now; you are bound to repeat it.

east tx skier
08-06-2004, 10:47 AM
Here's one for the Germans.

Knoxes
08-06-2004, 11:31 AM
If you only had an idea of how long it took me to work that analogy into this discussion. That's my piece d' resistance. I should retire now.

east tx skier
08-06-2004, 12:24 PM
One of my favorite pictures/episodes of Diff'rent Strokes. Cheers!

JimN
08-06-2004, 02:59 PM
OK, so who's gonna bust out the David Hasselhoff record tonight?

captkidd
08-06-2004, 04:10 PM
Hey, who's that really tall guy standing beside Jimmy Walker?

east tx skier
08-06-2004, 05:09 PM
Jim, nobody in this country, I assure you.

As for the "tall guy," that's K.I.T.T.

BriEOD
08-06-2004, 06:33 PM
OK, I found that article to be a bunch of BS. I did a lot of work with different federal agencies. Also when I was stationed in Hawaii Honolulu INTL airport shares the airspace and runways, taxiways, etc with Hickam AFB. That gives the military jurisdiction over anything that goes down at the airport. I routinely did training at the airport in regards to IEDs. Furthermore after 9/11 security was stiffened even further. Here's the part that's BS to me. OK, fine you've got some high school GED guy staring at the x-ray machine for 8hrs. Maybe something like electronic or mechanical componets will get by. I'll buy that one. I've x-rayed all kinds of stuff and sometimes, rarely something will get by. But, that's why you always have more then one set of eyes. What will stop a possible IED maker everytime without question is the ionizer. As you all who travel have probably seen they swipe your luggage etc with a round tissue swipe. They then run this through a machine that pulls the particles off of the swipe and analyzes them. You can't beat the machine. When you touch something, smokeless powder, c-4, ammonia, bleach whatever trace amount get on the container, your hands etc. Even if you vacum sealed the package and decontaminated it odds are you still wouldn't get past the machine. That's why you don't see people trying to blow up planes anymore.

As for the racist issue. Well, America ought to wake the f*ck up! When are we going to stop searching old ladies and our Armed Forces in uniform at the Airports. I don't see granny and Gunny Highway trying to blow up the planes. It's these extremists, search em' harass em' whatever. They are not citizens, they are not Americans they therefore have no rights in my opinion. Round em' up and throw them out. They have all these rights in our country. I've been to Saudi Arabia, the first thing those people did when I got there is dump out every piece of luggage I had and search it. They open your mail, go through your packages, you name it. They sure don't extend us any civil liberties. But, until we stop worrying about offending someone, or saying God in school or profiling, this problem isn't going to end.

JimN
08-06-2004, 07:11 PM
They were talking about a second opinion last night on Larry King, if I heard correctly. I didn't have that station on very long and don't know what was said.