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wiltok
06-11-2007, 11:09 AM
Anyone have any good recommendations? I was going to with the Bose outdoor speakers but the reviews I've read said they have little/no bass. I am not concerned about the cost - any good ones out there??

Here are the Bose I was considering: http://www.crutchfield.com/S-aJfbSTFK8XW/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=12400&I=018151SEW&search=outdoor+speakers

I was considering there but can't fine any reviews: http://www.crutchfield.com/S-aJfbSTFK8XW/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=12400&I=653OASIS5W&search=outdoor+speakers

Thanks in advance.

JimN
06-11-2007, 11:37 AM
The saying about them is, "No highs, no lows, must be Bose".

How much power do you want to pump through these, how loud do you want it to go and how big is the area that you want to cover? These questions will really determine what you need. Rather than try to cover a large area with two speakers, it's always better to use more speakers and have a more consistent volume.

I sell Jamo, JBL, Boston Acoustics and other outdoor speakers. I can also get other brands but these are the main ones. Here are some links:

http://jbl.com/home/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=N26AWII&Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA&cat=IWO&ser=NOR
www.jamo.com/Default.aspx?ID=5929&M=Shop&PID=17176&ProductID=17604
www.jamo.com/Default.aspx?ID=5929&M=Shop&PID=17176&ProductID=17599
www.bostonacoustics.com/home_product.aspx?category_id=37&product_id=284

If the speakers won't be right near the listening location, get something that has a longer "throw" for the sound. That way, it's not dispersing the sound widely when it needs to focus it on a particular spot.

atlfootr
06-11-2007, 12:37 PM
Yea those are really nice, but what kind of $$$$ signs are we talking here ?

Ben
06-11-2007, 12:41 PM
I have a friend who recently got a pair of Yamaha outdoor speakers w/5yr warranty from Costco or Sam's club, I don't remember which. Not a rock concert, but they sound pretty good.

I second Jim's comment about more speakers. My friend's back yard (about 50x50) has 2 speakers on the back of the house under the porch and 2 out by the water. Sounds nice & you don't have to blast it to get full sound.

TX.X-30 fan
06-11-2007, 12:44 PM
I have 4 Boston Acoustics Voyager Pro speakers and we love them. They fixed a woofer in one speaker with 2mo. left on a 5yr warranty. these days that's amazing to me.

Jim what can I get to control the volume from outside? I have these hooked up to an older extra Yamaha receiver hooked up in my home theater system so I can listen to cd's or the sat. feed for a game ect.


Sorry for the threadjack. :)

wiltok
06-11-2007, 12:46 PM
I like the way the Jamo speakers look (that, of course, is important for the wife). See below for a picture of the set-up - want sound on the deck and in the yard (which extends out 40 feet to the lake). I don't need to have the sound reach that far - but I would say about 20 feet out would be ideal.

JimN
06-11-2007, 01:08 PM
Wiltok- "I like the way the Jamo speakers look (that, of course, is important for the wife)."

Yes, it is. Try doing a job where the wife is an interior designer.

20' out is a piece of cake. How much power are you working with? Are the speaker wires already there? Is this the place we discussed last year?

TX-30- under warranty is under warranty. If someone charges for warranty work, you should go to the D.A.. Do you want an outdoor volume control or with the remote control?

Atlfooter- The JBL are the most expensive but the highest one is about $549/pair. The rest are in the same ballpark as the ones in the first links, around $349- $399 /pair for the larger ones.

TX.X-30 fan
06-11-2007, 01:13 PM
[QUOTE=JimN]Wiltok- "I like the way the Jamo speakers look (that, of
TX-30- under warranty is under warranty. If someone charges for warranty work, you should go to the D.A.. Do you want an outdoor volume control or with the remote control?

Just an outdoor volume control would be fine. Do they make one that is rf, that would not require me on my belly in the attic running wire. :(

JimN
06-11-2007, 01:18 PM
There are all kinds of remotes and there's even a really cheap add-on that uses the original one, replacing one battery. I bought one and it works from over 50' away, at ground level, controlling a satellite receiver on my second floor. There are more elaborate systems, and one of them can work from ridiculous distances, using Z-Wave. That one is kinda pricey but it really does a lot.

wiltok
06-11-2007, 01:34 PM
From JimN:

"20' out is a piece of cake. How much power are you working with? Are the speaker wires already there? Is this the place we discussed last year?"

This is the place we discussed last year - it's almost done!! I did whole house audio/video, structuring wiring, conduit (smurf tube) to every room for future enhancement, etc. The speakers wire is already in the walls - 14 gauge monster wire. I don't have the stereo bought/set-up yet - but it will be probably average power (for now).

Just e-mailed the wife - she likes the Jamo.

JohnE
06-11-2007, 06:39 PM
I do some a fair amount of home audio wiring (supply and install) and my preference is the Jamo. I have also used JBL and Elan speakers. The I/O 3A2 are my preference. The I/O 8A's sound great but are enormous.

Slinkyredfoot
06-11-2007, 09:03 PM
I have found in an outdoor environment, inexpensive speakers of any kind sound great. The outdoors is not an area that one can experience the sound of quality speakers, not to mention the cold months in the winter unless you want to take them inside, and I don't...

I have had 2 pair of Insignia outdoor speakers for two years so far. I bought each pair for about 20 bucks each and they still sound great. I prefer to spend outrageous prices for boat gas and economize in other areas....

phecksel
06-11-2007, 10:37 PM
Go cheap, they won't last no matter how much money you spend.

Next door neighbor spent something like $350, and they lasted two years. I spend $250 and they lasted three years. Replaced the driver from www.partsexpress.com and working two years. The replacement driver only cost something like $20. You're outside, there is no such thing as fidelity. We can easily enjoy the music in the lake, and I've probably have 60'+. If I really want to make some noise, I drag the towers outside, LOL

Workin' 4 Toys
06-11-2007, 10:57 PM
JimN.....Are you telling me this is your occupation? I feel like I just discovered something...:D

I was going to do the Bose 251s, I take it you would recommend the jbl's in your link?

JimN
06-11-2007, 11:03 PM
"You're outside, there is no such thing as fidelity."

There is if you have enough power and speakers. Someone I worked with had a party in his yard and we called some others to ask if they would bring their speakers and amps. We had six pairs of the same model of speakers (Jamo 101- 8" three-way), six amplifiers and stacked them like a pyramid. That place was rockin'! The cops stood at the side of the yard for almost a half hour before asking us to turn it down a bit, but that it really sounded good. When they found out where we sold stereo stuff, they asked for our cards.

Proper coverage and decent power sounds great, even outside. If the speakers are even somewhat accessible, they can and should be brought in for the winter if it's really harsh.

Besides, nobody likes the sound of spiders trying to cover their ears the first time they're cranked up in Spring (you can actually hear them screaming, if you listen closely- mostly stuff like, "Are ye deef mon?).

JimN
06-11-2007, 11:08 PM
Workin'- not necessarily the JBL, just get something other than the Bose if you really want it to sound good.

Before anyone crawls all over me, they sound good in specific situations, with certain kinds of music. They just aren't what I like.

The Jamo are a good speaker, especially for the price. I do like the JBL and Boston, too.

"Are you telling me this is your occupation? I feel like I just discovered something."

You haven't seen my long, drawn-out posts about audio before now? Yes, this is what I do.

TJsAudio
06-11-2007, 11:25 PM
Yea I agree with JimN the BOSE are not that great of speakers I turned my dads old bose system into his garage stereo, If that tells you anything. plus that stereo needs new speakers now sience the bose stink. Maybe some DANA audio or somthing

JimN
06-11-2007, 11:58 PM
DANA audio-never heard much about them. I don't think anyone will be finding a new set, anyway.

Roonie's
06-12-2007, 11:15 AM
I have paradigm outdoor speakers on all my patios around the house so a total of 6 speakers. They sound good and they are controlled by a volume switch right at the door. I have the whole house wired with over 25 speakers throughout and with touch screen controls in the important rooms to control the zones (I used Elan). On the touch screen I can access tuner, Ipod, cd, satellite radio, and mp3 and be able to select anything from any one of those. I love the whole house system as all electronics are located on a stack in the basement utility room including dvd players as I have all tv's with IR remotes.

TJsAudio
06-12-2007, 10:52 PM
Did DANA Audio (also True Bass Solutions in car audio) In Tennissee go out of business? I can't seem to find them on the web either.

JimN
06-12-2007, 11:53 PM
DANA Audio was out of TX. Unless it was a different company, and we all know these companies NEVER go out of business and spring up someplace else, right?

Personally, when it came to sound competitions, I preferred designing and building systems purely for sound quality, not for SPL. Did one car (Pontiac GTA) that probably shouldn't have sounded or scored as well as it did but we tuned it at the last minute by ear because all of the RTAs were outside, ready for the start of competition. Scored 37 out of 40 for frequency response. Tony and I looked at each other and started laughing.

djhuff
06-13-2007, 09:31 AM
I got the Klipsch (sp). They were about $75 more than I was planning on spending, so I chose the Boston Acoustics speakers (they said they were in stock). They looked for about 30 minutes, came back to me and told me that they didn't have the BA, so they'll sell me the Klipsch for the same price (no complaints here). They've sounded good for 3.5 years so far.. almost too good (neighbors). I mounted them in the upper corner of my screen porch and they actually have a decent low freq response (I think from being mounted in a corner).

The next house, they will be exposed to the rain and such, so we'll see how they do then.

Workin' 4 Toys
06-13-2007, 09:46 AM
Workin'- not necessarily the JBL, just get something other than the Bose if you really want it to sound good.

Before anyone crawls all over me, they sound good in specific situations, with certain kinds of music. They just aren't what I like.

The Jamo are a good speaker, especially for the price. I do like the JBL and Boston, too.

"Are you telling me this is your occupation? I feel like I just discovered something."

You haven't seen my long, drawn-out posts about audio before now? Yes, this is what I do.
Well, I'd have to say, I thought it was more like a hobby for you....:o

Thanks for the advice. I guess from a non-audiophile like myself, I have no problems with sound of all the bose speakers I have. I had to replace one sub about 3 years ago in a speaker that was about 10 years old at the time. I could have bought new ones for the price I paid for the sub:o.

Workin' 4 Toys
06-13-2007, 09:48 AM
Personally, when it came to sound competitions, I preferred designing and building systems purely for sound quality, not for SPL. Did one car (Pontiac GTA) that probably shouldn't have sounded or scored as well as it did but we tuned it at the last minute by ear because all of the RTAs were outside, ready for the start of competition. Scored 37 out of 40 for frequency response. Tony and I looked at each other and started laughing.

This is a shot in the dark, but by any chance was this GTA white with graphics all over it? Any chance it was a few years ago?

JimN
06-13-2007, 09:58 AM
The GTA was pretty plain, the guy was from Racine or Kenosha and his previous system had been stolen but he may have added the graphics later. He described it as "nice, clean bass" from some Orion subs mounted in a panel over the bottom of the bin at the rear. We got it done, it really sounded great and he did very well in his competition class but he hated it. He couldn't have had "nice, clean bass" because that it definitely what he got. He hated it so much, he went to the MTX booth and bought one of their bass discs, drove over to the side of the parking lot and purposely blew the crap out of his woofers. Voice coil pieces all over the inside of the box. What a jag.

Of course, in the interest of "Yes sir, you're absolutely right. We'll do anything to kiss your azz", the company replaced them under warranty, which was clearly voided when he blew them up by doing things I had specifically told him not to.

Workin' 4 Toys
06-13-2007, 10:12 AM
Probably not the same guy I know. I am not certain where he lived at that time, but your description somewhat fits him.
This guy I knew with this white GTA had one of the loudest cars I have ever witnessed. And what you describe certainly sounds like something he would do, but I don't think its the same guy. I could hear that car miles away, incredible.
I haven't seen him in awhile, but I recall he sold off that car and bought a 1995 WS6 to replace it.

Theee loudest car I have ever heard (in person) was (if I recall) 1986 Buick regal. It was painful to stand within a 100 feet of that car.

JimN
06-13-2007, 11:04 AM
While I can kind of understand people trying to have the loudest car, I'll never have one. Sound quality is WAYYYYYY more important to me. Besides, I don't want to need hearing aids at all, let alone at 30 years of age.

One car I did in the 501-1000 Watt class (always the most entrants) took third place at an IASCA event in Chicago and I never tuned it for that. I didn't even know he was going until he stopped in to tell me. IIRC, he did 132 db with Boston Acoustics components in standard locations, no wall of speakers.

Workin' 4 Toys
06-13-2007, 11:14 AM
FWIW- most of these guys I knew with these types of systems were always operated via remote control, so they didn't have to be near the cars.....:confused:


Back to the subject of exterior speakers....
What is the big difference in these exterior (patio) speakers. I never would have guessed there would be a dramatic difference between two brands, especially coming from the same stereo.
Indoor units I can understand but exterior? (Assuming I don't want to rock the neighborhood) As a matter of fact, I rather them not hear my tunes at all...:o

JimN
06-13-2007, 11:33 AM
Every speaker company has their own idea of how speakers should sound. That means they will do the testing, etc to make that happen. Speakers make more difference in how the system will sound than anything else. They are affected by the environment they're in, while the electronics aren't, other than excessive heat causing problems. They're affected by where they're placed, temperature, humidity, elevation, etc because air is the medium that transmits the sound and the density makes a big difference. Most stereo equipment sounds very similar. There's a little, narrow band of crap at the bottom end that sounds like what it is, there's a narrow band at the top end that people feel makes their lives worth living because it sounds so good and there's a wide band in the middle that sounds very similar. The closer to either extreme, the more the differences become apparent. There are ways to place the speakers so your neighbors don't hear much at all. They also make high power unnecessary but uses more speakers.

The other factor that 99.9% of sales people (clerks, mostly) don't know, care or say anything about is that everyone's hearing is different. This means that for every incredible sounding speaker, there's a large number of people who don't like the sound and for every absolute POS, someone will think it's the best sound they have ever heard. This is because the speakers closely match what their ears need to have presented to them, in order for the sound to be "great".

The other major thing it seems that nobody in retail knows about or wants to get involved with is the fact that the room makes more difference in how a system will sound than just about any other single item or factor.

Hearing aids are customized to allow the wearer to hear things as naturally as possible and this is no different but as far as I know, there are no trained audiologists working in stereo stores. It would be an interesting approach to selling this kind of equipment, though. Find out about their hearing and then pick the speakers. It would save a lot of time and money, that's for sure.

I have talked to people who said that they wanted their system to sound "just like the studio". No, they don't. A studio isn't for listening to and enjoying music.

Workin' 4 Toys
06-13-2007, 11:47 AM
So it sounds like I need 4 speakers outside, one from each different manufacturer. This way I can get the good and the bad from each.;)
Where would you install an outdoor speaker? On the ground, or wall mounted up high?


(I am going to guess you are going to say it depends on the application., as I would expect, but as a general rule?)

JimN
06-13-2007, 11:52 AM
If security is an issue, up high, aimed at the listening positions so there's a minimum of overlap. If it's not an issue, lower, but angled downward slightly so water and sunlight don't beat them up too badly.

X2M
06-13-2007, 12:01 PM
We just installed some of the Yamaha outdoor speakers.

Mounted them up high under the overhang of the patio. Mainly to protect them from the water flying out of the pool and the weather. And the sound travels out better I guess??

I personally like the sound of the them, very clear and they were much better on the bank account too. We ordered them online along with 4 Yamaha flush mount surround sound speakers for the house. And paid less for all 6 than we would have for a set of the Klipsch or Bose.

:)

Workin' 4 Toys
06-13-2007, 12:08 PM
Yamaha....I thought they were a piano manufacturer8p I guess anyone can make a speaker...:rolleyes:

JimN
06-13-2007, 12:09 PM
One thing I didn't say before- mounting them on a surface (instead of a post) uses the surface to send more of the sound outward. If they can be mounted under a soffit, it's better and if they can be under a soffit and in or near a corner, you'll get the most sound from any speaker. Putting a speaker under a soffit and in a corner is like quadrupling the power, when compared to free-air use.

X2M
06-13-2007, 12:22 PM
One thing I didn't say before- mounting them on a surface (instead of a post) uses the surface to send more of the sound outward. If they can be mounted under a soffit, it's better and if they can be under a soffit and in or near a corner, you'll get the most sound from any speaker. Putting a speaker under a soffit and in a corner is like quadrupling the power, when compared to free-air use.

That is where we mounted ours on the patio. We put them up and turned them on the first time and I thought 'oh crap', my neighbors are going to hate this...they were so loud. LOL. :D




WFT.... whatever.... :rolleyes:

Workin' 4 Toys
06-13-2007, 12:36 PM
That is where we mounted ours on the patio. We put them up and turned them on the first time and I thought 'oh crap', my neighbors are going to hate this...they were so loud. LOL. :D




WFT.... whatever.... :rolleyes:
But then you realized, everyone out there loves the Beach Boys played real loud...8p

JimN
06-13-2007, 12:36 PM
"they were so loud."

You do know that the volume control can make them quieter, right?:guitar:

JimN
06-13-2007, 12:38 PM
"everyone out there loves the Beach Boys played real loud..."

Nothin' like waking up at 3AM to Kokomo, played so loud you'd think they were in your yard.:D

Workin' 4 Toys
06-13-2007, 12:39 PM
"they were so loud."

You do know that the volume control can make them quieter, right?:guitar:
Jim,
You are setting yourself up for a.... whatever ...:rolleyes:

Jus' sayin'....:D

X2M
06-13-2007, 12:42 PM
"they were so loud."

You do know that the volume control can make them quieter, right?:guitar:

LOL...:D Yes I do know what the volume control does. I think we might have a haunted unit though, the volume keeps getting louder and louder...no one seems to know how that happens. ;)



WFT... Only country music has been coming out of the speakers so far.

JimN
06-13-2007, 12:47 PM
You need "speaker update 1.1.2", so they'll play both kinds of music, Country AND Western.

Haunted, eh? More like a loonie, I think. Volume keeps going up- is a massive quantity of beer involved?:friday:

BuoyChaser
06-13-2007, 12:47 PM
what is the least expensive speaker, my theory is more powerful amp then run more speakers in key locations, rather than one or two speakers playing LOUD!!!good background tunes in key points...

what about "remote control" for ipod outdoors, what's everyone doing???would like to switch between XM & iPod...

Workin' 4 Toys
06-13-2007, 12:50 PM
"everyone out there loves the Beach Boys played real loud..."

Nothin' like waking up at 3AM to Kokomo, played so loud you'd think they were in your yard.:D
"Little Deuce coupe" is welcome to wake me up at 3AM...

But I'd guess she probably cranked up some "California Girls"

tex
06-13-2007, 12:54 PM
Round Round get around, I get around!

Crank it up!
My favorite BB song!

Workin' 4 Toys
06-13-2007, 12:55 PM
"409" is also welcome here.......:D

JimN
06-13-2007, 12:57 PM
My fav is 'In My Room'. (now, where is my sweater-vest?)

If anyone ever hears me play that song, shoot me!

JimN
06-13-2007, 01:01 PM
Cheap speakers are worth every penny- not much. If you want to save money. look on the demo shelf for a good brand/model that comes with a full warranty. If they have a scuff, who cares? They're going outside.

Remote control and iPod don't go together well in most cases because there's no visual for what's on the iPod screen. There are some but they tend to use iTunes and are pricey.

Workin' 4 Toys
06-13-2007, 01:03 PM
My fav is 'In My Room'. (now, where is my sweater-vest?)

If anyone ever hears me play that song, shoot me!
OK....................

X2M
06-13-2007, 01:10 PM
Gretchen Wilson's 'Redneck Woman' can be heard coming from the backyard lately. LOL...Yeehaw Baby!! :D

JimN... could you send me a link to the country/western update? Guess we are not hick enough out here. :rolleyes: 8p


We have a hookup for the ipod on the head unit. I have created several long playlists that work well for us. Depending on the type crowd that is here we have music for everyone.

maristarman
06-13-2007, 01:17 PM
Just remember to always check which speakers you've got selected.

Nothing like realizing at 11 PM that you've just treated the neighborhood to the audio track from Pirates of the Caribbean. :o

Workin' 4 Toys
06-13-2007, 01:17 PM
what is the least expensive speaker, my theory is more powerful amp then run more speakers in key locations, rather than one or two speakers playing LOUD!!!good background tunes in key points...

what about "remote control" for ipod outdoors, what's everyone doing???would like to switch between XM & iPod...
I do believe the new Bose Lifestyle systems have these capabilities. I gave this system a quick once over the other day when I picked up my Wave. It seems like a really nice system, and something I might consider soon.
Whole house entertainment all in one, some have music storage built in, and I believe it has sirius or XM, also has something like 12 room linking capabilities and multiple channels/music throughout. Again, I didn't get into it much, but it sounds like it does everything I would want in a system.
Oh, and its remote control...

JimN
06-13-2007, 01:59 PM
X2momma- for the Country/Western link, watch The Blues Brothers.

JimN
06-13-2007, 02:02 PM
"Nothing like realizing at 11 PM that you've just treated the neighborhood to the audio track from Pirates of the Caribbean"

I have a customer who wanted a speaker controller with no ON/OFF switches and he asked why they needed to be turned off and someone mentioned cranking up some porn, loud enough that the whole neighborhood could hear it late at night. He said, "Yeah, let's get the one with the switches!".

Bltexas
06-13-2007, 02:38 PM
I put some outdoor KEF speakers on the back of my Carver boat 6 years ago and they still sound great. They have never been inside. Boat is stored in a covered dock year round. Installer used thinner MTX speakers for the fore deck and they sound okay but not as much power as the KEF's.
Now I have a set on my dock at home. I have also heard some Boston Acoustics that I liked but on that dock he had several of them as well as a built in sub so it had plenty of bass.

BuoyChaser
06-13-2007, 03:47 PM
I do believe the new Bose Lifestyle systems have these capabilities. I gave this system a quick once over the other day when I picked up my Wave. It seems like a really nice system, and something I might consider soon.
Whole house entertainment all in one, some have music storage built in, and I believe it has sirius or XM, also has something like 12 room linking capabilities and multiple channels/music throughout. Again, I didn't get into it much, but it sounds like it does everything I would want in a system.
Oh, and its remote control...
very interesting, but i'm wondering what pricepoint would be on this, looks pricey at $2k checking out bose.com

Workin' 4 Toys
06-13-2007, 04:47 PM
very interesting, but i'm wondering what pricepoint would be on this, looks pricey at $2k checking out bose.com
Or you could look at it like I did....It's very "neat" and an all in one system. And if I remember correctly,it doesn't only use it's own speakers, it has the ability to "communicate" with the Bose Wave radios also. In other words, in seems to me it somewhat eliminates the need to pre-wire an entire house for speakers throughout. And everything can be played through one head unit, whether it be a movie, music, etc... If it really does what I think it does, it's worth going back and looking when I am ready.
(I think) if I recall reading, they may be working on a unit that not only stores music, but movies too. And may also have some type of software that will allow it to download music and movies on request.

And worst case scenario, it may help eliminate the need to have a dozen ipods around the house...:rolleyes:

Rich_G
06-13-2007, 05:03 PM
? for you audio guys - I have an inexpensive pair of outdoor speakers on my screened porch. They quit working. I'm pretty sure I didn't blow them. We don't blast the music when we have the outdoor speakers on.

I checked the basic connections, and switched the A & B speaker connections on the receiver, but no luck. Is there anything else I can check before replacing these? They are over 10 years old. They do not get exposed to any water, but we do have significant humidity at times of the year.

JimN
06-13-2007, 07:39 PM
Get a piece of speaker wire and take it to each speaker, disconnect the house speaker wires. Attach the short piece to each speakers and, using a AA battery, tape one wire to a battery terminal and tap the other wire on the remaining terminal. If it pops, the speaker is good (maybe still has a problem but it works). If it doesn't, pull it down and see if it will come apart so each driver can be tested individually. The tweeter has a capacitor on it, so if you use the battery on it, you'll have to put the wire right on the tweeter's terminals. Don't leave the battery connected for long- the tweeter won't live long.

If they work with the substituted speaker wire, reconnect them and go inside to repeat the test from the receiver end, after disconnecting the wires from the receiver. You'll obviously need a second person to listen for the popping sound.

Is there a volume control for that pair, somewhere in the house, that is almost never used?

phecksel
06-14-2007, 12:06 AM
I do believe the new Bose Lifestyle systems have these capabilities. I gave this system a quick once over the other day when I picked up my Wave. It seems like a really nice system, and something I might consider soon.
Whole house entertainment all in one, some have music storage built in, and I believe it has sirius or XM, also has something like 12 room linking capabilities and multiple channels/music throughout. Again, I didn't get into it much, but it sounds like it does everything I would want in a system.
Oh, and its remote control...

Friends don't let friends buy blows lifestyle systems. Money is better spent elsewhere.

Rich_G
06-14-2007, 10:48 AM
JimN, thanks for the info. I wanted to check them out before buying another pair.

Workin' 4 Toys
06-15-2007, 12:08 PM
Friends don't let friends buy blows lifestyle systems. Money is better spent elsewhere.

Ok, then give me your "better spent" suggestion for an all in one system that does the same or more.