PDA

View Full Version : Help - Front Ballast Sac won't prime / fill


prostar205
05-28-2007, 10:16 AM
During the winter, I did a little work to my ballast system. I have a 2002 X30 with the stock Jabsco Ballast Puppy pumps. Here is what I did.

1) changed all the outlet hoses from 3/4" ID to 1" ID
2) had a custom ballast sac made from Fly High for the front ski looker
3) changed to the new (yellow) impellers in all 3 pumps

Now, I just can not seem to get the front sac to prime or fill. I hear the pump come on.

I was wondering if inverting the Port and Middle pumps (since they are installed upside down) would have any effect on the pumps ability to prime. The Port pump take a while to prime while the Starboard pump primes right way. The Starboard pump is installed opposite of the other 2 pumps. My guess is MasterCraft did this because of space issues.

Any suggestions would be great. Did I screw things up by going to the 1" ID hose? I taked to several dealers that told me MC went to 1" ID outlet hose in 2005 to match the 1" ID inlet hose.

Chief
05-28-2007, 10:21 AM
Depending on how far the pick-up from the pump is it may need to be primed. Fill the line with some water prior to putting boat in the water and you should be fine. Have you inspected the impeller? Once you get some residual water in the line it should prime up every time.

prostar205
05-28-2007, 10:31 AM
jcrosby150 -

Yes, the first thing I did was to take the cover off the pump and inspect the impeller. I will have to say the new yellow impellers are alot more plyable (softer) than the old black versions. I can see why they say they will last alot longer in a run-dry situation. However, I think that is also part of the problem. With the yellow impellers being more plyable, I don't think they can "pull" as much of a head of water as the black ones. I'll try filling the new outlet line with water to see if that will help.

beatle78
05-28-2007, 10:40 AM
sorry threadjack- prostar205, what model is your yellow Mayfair 750GPH bilge pump w/ the built in switch?

You had mentioned it here.

http://tmcowners.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=12657&page=2

ThreadJack off

prostar205
05-28-2007, 11:00 AM
sorry threadjack- prostar205, what model is your yellow Mayfair 750GPH bilge pump w/ the built in switch?

You had mentioned it here.

http://tmcowners.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=12657&page=2

ThreadJack off


beattle78 -

I don't know the model number. I do not it's a Mayfair 750 GPH cartridge bilge switch with the float switch attached to the side. I think you can find them on ebay for around $50. It is installed in the boat and I really can not see the model number.

Sorry.

P-hat_in_Cincy
05-28-2007, 11:25 AM
PS205V,
Let's run thru (clarify) some things:
1) You changed the 'outlet' side of the pumps to 1"ID. This means the lines b/w the pumps and the sac/tanks are now 1"?
2) Two pumps are orientated upside down and they are the middle sac pump and one of the rears? Both of these pumps have priming issues when compared to the pump installed with the pump head (impeller) up?
3) Do you have the stock MC ballast manifold (1 inlet, 3 outlets for pumps, and 2 outlets for drain?
4) Do you fill one at a time, 2 at a time, 3 at a time?

Thanks,
Paul

prostar205
05-28-2007, 01:06 PM
PS205V,
Let's run thru (clarify) some things:
1) You changed the 'outlet' side of the pumps to 1"ID. This means the lines b/w the pumps and the sac/tanks are now 1"?
2) Two pumps are orientated upside down and they are the middle sac pump and one of the rears? Both of these pumps have priming issues when compared to the pump installed with the pump head (impeller) up?
3) Do you have the stock MC ballast manifold (1 inlet, 3 outlets for pumps, and 2 outlets for drain?
4) Do you fill one at a time, 2 at a time, 3 at a time?

Thanks,
Paul

Paul -

Here are the answers to your questions.

1) Yes, all lines are 1" ID. The boat came from the factory with 1" ID lines from the manifold to the 'inlet' of each pump. However, the factory installed a reducer for a 3/4" ID 'outlet' line. I removed the reducer and installed 1" ID 'outlet' hoses going to each ballast sac.

2) Actually, the only pump installed 'right side up' (impeller facing down) is the Starboard side up. The pumps for the center ski locker and Port side sac are installed facing up (impeller facing up). These are the 2 problem priming pumps.

3) Yes, I have the stock MC manifold (1 inlet, 3 outlets)

4) I normally fill the front sac by itself first then the 2 rear sacs at the same time. If I try to fill all 3 sacs at the same time, the main 40A breaker blows.

Any help you can give me on this subject would be great.

Thanks,

Tom

'02xrider
05-28-2007, 03:36 PM
Hmmmm...the only one working is installed right side up...

Chief
05-28-2007, 05:16 PM
Paul -

Here are the answers to your questions.

1) Yes, all lines are 1" ID. The boat came from the factory with 1" ID lines from the manifold to the 'inlet' of each pump. However, the factory installed a reducer for a 3/4" ID 'outlet' line. I removed the reducer and installed 1" ID 'outlet' hoses going to each ballast sac.

2) Actually, the only pump installed 'right side up' (impeller facing down) is the Starboard side up. The pumps for the center ski locker and Port side sac are installed facing up (impeller facing up). These are the 2 problem priming pumps.

3) Yes, I have the stock MC manifold (1 inlet, 3 outlets)

4) I normally fill the front sac by itself first then the 2 rear sacs at the same time. If I try to fill all 3 sacs at the same time, the main 40A breaker blows.

Any help you can give me on this subject would be great.

Thanks,

Tom

I usually run two pumps at a time. I believe three pumps pull too much current as evident with the fuse blowing. You may be correct with the new yellow impellers being softer and not as much suction as the stiff stock ones. I looked at my pick up box and there appears to be a hose connection inline. If you have the same I would connect hose and fill the lines for priming purposes.

P-hat_in_Cincy
05-28-2007, 10:14 PM
Paul -

Here are the answers to your questions.

1) Yes, all lines are 1" ID. The boat came from the factory with 1" ID lines from the manifold to the 'inlet' of each pump. However, the factory installed a reducer for a 3/4" ID 'outlet' line. I removed the reducer and installed 1" ID 'outlet' hoses going to each ballast sac.

2) Actually, the only pump installed 'right side up' (impeller facing down) is the Starboard side up. The pumps for the center ski locker and Port side sac are installed facing up (impeller facing up). These are the 2 problem priming pumps.

3) Yes, I have the stock MC manifold (1 inlet, 3 outlets)

4) I normally fill the front sac by itself first then the 2 rear sacs at the same time. If I try to fill all 3 sacs at the same time, the main 40A breaker blows.

Any help you can give me on this subject would be great.

Thanks,

Tom

OK.

1) I wouldn't think going to 1" lines after the pump would matter. The pump should pump into an infinitely large area no matter what...I would think.

2) I wouldn't think the extra 6" of height should cause any significant priming issues. The minimum head pressure height was 5' according to Jabsco tech sheets. I can't imagine you being over 3'. Please confirm you pump part # for me.

3) Stock manifold should mean that you have PVC swing check valves on your outlet/drain lines. Confirm this. Confirm they are function smoothly by blowing into your drain thru hulls (out the sides, right?). You should eventually not be able to blow any more if the check valve closes all the way. If you continue to blow air you either 1) don't have the lung capacity to fill the line up to the check valve (quit smoking) :D , or 2) the swing valves are not swinging closed freely and causing you to lose, or have diminished, priming capabilities.

The pvc swing check valves should be oriented to so that gravity helps keep them normally closed. If thier orientation is off (they having markings for proper orientation), or they are gunked up, they will not function as smoothly and could cause an open system. As I recall, our former '02 X10 had one of the rear locker panels off when we initially looked at it b/c they were fixing/replacing the pvc swing check valves as part of a recall or performance issue. In fact, I still have a picture :o ...it's attached.

4) Try filling the front and one rear sac at the same time to see if you get the front to prime. If if works, perhaps it's tied into #3 above and 2 pumps create enough pull to get overcome a partially 'open' system.

5) Have you confirmed any blockage in the system? Maybe the easiest way is to put a bucket of water in the boat, detach the line to the front bag and put it in the bucket, hit empty on the switch and see what happens.

Have you tried filling all 3 at the same time by first bumping your RPM up around 1K? I do that to make sure I am still charging rather than drawing from the battery.

Here's my thinking...and again, I'm no expert. Pumps normally don't prime because there's an opening in the system and it's easier to suck air than it is water, or there's a blockage. Unless you are trying to pull the column of water too high, or your impellers are toast (which you confirmed not), it probably leads to an open system or a blockage in the system. Both conditions are easy to diagnose. I just can't see the extra 6" in height from the up-side-down / down-side-up being the issue. The impellers are a possibility, but I'd go there later.

Paul

prostar205
05-29-2007, 12:27 PM
OK.

1) I wouldn't think going to 1" lines after the pump would matter. The pump should pump into an infinitely large area no matter what...I would think.

2) I wouldn't think the extra 6" of height should cause any significant priming issues. The minimum head pressure height was 5' according to Jabsco tech sheets. I can't imagine you being over 3'. Please confirm you pump part # for me.

3) Stock manifold should mean that you have PVC swing check valves on your outlet/drain lines. Confirm this. Confirm they are function smoothly by blowing into your drain thru hulls (out the sides, right?). You should eventually not be able to blow any more if the check valve closes all the way. If you continue to blow air you either 1) don't have the lung capacity to fill the line up to the check valve (quit smoking) :D , or 2) the swing valves are not swinging closed freely and causing you to lose, or have diminished, priming capabilities.

The pvc swing check valves should be oriented to so that gravity helps keep them normally closed. If thier orientation is off (they having markings for proper orientation), or they are gunked up, they will not function as smoothly and could cause an open system. As I recall, our former '02 X10 had one of the rear locker panels off when we initially looked at it b/c they were fixing/replacing the pvc swing check valves as part of a recall or performance issue. In fact, I still have a picture :o ...it's attached.

4) Try filling the front and one rear sac at the same time to see if you get the front to prime. If if works, perhaps it's tied into #3 above and 2 pumps create enough pull to get overcome a partially 'open' system.

5) Have you confirmed any blockage in the system? Maybe the easiest way is to put a bucket of water in the boat, detach the line to the front bag and put it in the bucket, hit empty on the switch and see what happens.

Have you tried filling all 3 at the same time by first bumping your RPM up around 1K? I do that to make sure I am still charging rather than drawing from the battery.

Here's my thinking...and again, I'm no expert. Pumps normally don't prime because there's an opening in the system and it's easier to suck air than it is water, or there's a blockage. Unless you are trying to pull the column of water too high, or your impellers are toast (which you confirmed not), it probably leads to an open system or a blockage in the system. Both conditions are easy to diagnose. I just can't see the extra 6" in height from the up-side-down / down-side-up being the issue. The impellers are a possibility, but I'd go there later.

Paul

Paul -

Thanks for all the help so far. I will try filling the Starboard (the one pump that primes very easily) and the front sac at the same time.

As for the P/N of the pump, I should be able to get that tonight. The boat sits on a lift at my local marina so I don't go down there everyday.

Yes, I have the swing valves on all the vent lines and the outlet/drain lines just like you showed in your picture.

I will look for blockage in the system as well.

Thanks again.

Tom

P-hat_in_Cincy
05-29-2007, 01:27 PM
Paul -

Thanks for all the help so far. I will try filling the Starboard (the one pump that primes very easily) and the front sac at the same time.

As for the P/N of the pump, I should be able to get that tonight. The boat sits on a lift at my local marina so I don't go down there everyday.

Yes, I have the swing valves on all the vent lines and the outlet/drain lines just like you showed in your picture.

I will look for blockage in the system as well.

Thanks again.

Tom

No problem. I'm just trying work thru the easy cheap stuff first. Ballast issues can make for frustrating situations on the water.

I have to check one of my pumps. It pulls much less capacity than the other 3. It might be the impeller but I'm guessing the pump is partly fried. It (the motor) locked up when I installed it and I had to 'persuade' it to free up with a set of channel locks, so I think I aided to it's early demise. :o

prostar205
05-29-2007, 01:38 PM
I just went onto the Jabsco website and pulled up the Maxi Puppy (P/N 23610 Series) Technical Data Sheet. It states the following: "If installed in a vertical position the motor must be above the pump head". This would tend to make me believe that 2 of my 3 pumps are installed incorrectly (with the pump head or impeller above the motor).

Thoughts anyone????

P-hat_in_Cincy
05-29-2007, 02:05 PM
That's interesting b/c on my '02 it had them both ways. Can you email them to find out?

prostar205
05-29-2007, 05:16 PM
I just went onto the Jabsco website and pulled up the Maxi Puppy (P/N 23610 Series) Technical Data Sheet. It states the following: "If installed in a vertical position the motor must be above the pump head". This would tend to make me believe that 2 of my 3 pumps are installed incorrectly (with the pump head or impeller above the motor).

Thoughts anyone????


I need to edit this post a bit. The info regarding the position of the pump is for the Jabsco Maxi Puppy not the Jabsco Ballast Puppy pumps. In fact, the Ballast Puppy techincal data sheet states that it can be installed in any position.

My question is then: what is the difference between the Maxi Puppy and Ballast Puppy that allows one to be installed in any position and the other to only be installed with the motor above the impeller?

lawndude
05-29-2007, 05:22 PM
I also changed ballast over the winter and added the same bow bag-but all that i did is t-off of the factory bag's fill and vent hoses and it works just fine. The 750# bags in the rear make for an incredible wake.

lawndude
05-29-2007, 05:26 PM
one of the pumps are supposed to be upside down - i believe it is the drivers side-but the only difference it makes is the switch is backwards. (you can push fill to empty or drain to fill).

prostar205
05-30-2007, 11:54 AM
Update on front ballast sac not priming.

Well, after spending almost 4 hours at the marina with the boat in the water, I still can not get the pump to prime. Needless to say I was ready to scrap the pump and get a standard bilge to fill the center sac. Then, my engineering degree kicked in and I decided to rip the entire ballast system out of the boat and start over. I first started with turning the middle and port side pumps right side up (impeller facing down). I will then re-route all of the supply lines from the manifold to each pump. Finally, re-wire the switches to turn on the fill light when its filling and visa versa. If that does not work, I am back to the drawing board.

prostar205
05-30-2007, 11:57 AM
OK.

2) I wouldn't think the extra 6" of height should cause any significant priming issues. The minimum head pressure height was 5' according to Jabsco tech sheets. I can't imagine you being over 3'. Please confirm you pump part # for me.


Paul

Paul -

The part number on the Jabsco pumps is 18220-7123

Thanks,

Tom

prostar205
05-30-2007, 03:07 PM
Ok, I just got off the phone with Jabsco customer service. They said that my pumps my need a new O-ring that seals around the impeller and also the lower seal located below the impeller. Has anyone ever replace either of these parts when replacing the impeller? The lower seal is $17 ea. My local dealer is checking on the O-ring.

P-hat_in_Cincy
05-30-2007, 03:34 PM
Top o-ring is a breeze. Just remove the 3 BRASS screws and the o-ring will be right there! When putting cover back on be careful! I'll stress again that the screws are BRASS and will strip pretty easily.

Not sure about the seal below the impeller.

How did they diagnose this?

prostar205
05-30-2007, 04:24 PM
Top o-ring is a breeze. Just remove the 3 BRASS screws and the o-ring will be right there! When putting cover back on be careful! I'll stress again that the screws are BRASS and will strip pretty easily.

Not sure about the seal below the impeller.

How did they diagnose this?

Paul -

They really did not diagnose this symptom. The customer service tech asked me how long the pumps were. I told him 5 years. He said I would probably need to replace the O-ring and seal. He also asked if I had changed to the new impeller (yellow). I told him Yes.

The only other idea he gave me was to disconnect the inlet hose to the non-priming pump and stick it in a bucket of water to see if the pump will pull water from the bucket. I wonder where I have heard that before. So tonight's job is to do the bucket idea with all the pumps upside down (impeller facing down).

sand2snow22
05-30-2007, 08:03 PM
Good luck tonight, let us know how it goes......

prostar205
05-31-2007, 10:58 AM
Last nights activities:

Removed all three pumps and checked the cover O'ring and seal below the impeller. I found that two of the pumps had the seal installed correctly and the the other one had the seal installed upside down (verified this morning with Jabsco Customer Service). I went ahead and changed the one pump that had the seal installed upside down to match the other two pump's seal configuration. This whole process took several hours since the first pump I removed was the center sac pump which had the seal in upside down but could not verify this until I removed the other two pumps.

Reinstalled all three pumps with the impellers below the motor body.

Attempted to re-route the 1" inlet hoses to the three pumps but was unsuccessfull without a trip to Home Depot or Lowes. However, by this time it was 11:30pm and no stores are open at that time of the night. I will be visiting them on my lunch hour and finishing the re-routing this evening. I can tell you that it is a tight fit back there to re-route the hoses but I think it will be worth it.

More tomorrow.

prostar205
06-03-2007, 01:03 AM
Problem solved.

I turned out that the pump for the center sac is my "weakest" one. I swapped out the port side pump and the center pump and everything works and primes nicely. I did invert (impeller below the motor) both the center and port pumps. We'll see how long it takes to fill 1,900 of ballast now that I have 1" ID hose and inverted pumps.

TX.X-30 fan
06-03-2008, 07:05 PM
Top o-ring is a breeze. Just remove the 3 BRASS screws and the o-ring will be right there! When putting cover back on be careful! I'll stress again that the screws are BRASS and will strip pretty easily.

Not sure about the seal below the impeller.

How did they diagnose this?




I replaced all three impellers with the new ones this spring, I saw no o ring? I have the center bag problem now, pump runs but has no water in it, I could feel the difference between the pumps on the ones working. I will first try to pre prime the line as stated earlier.

I was just curious about this o ring, they did not come with the impellers from the dealer.

Jerseydave
06-03-2008, 08:11 PM
2 of my pumps on my '05 X-star are mounted with the motor below the pump(impeller)

Could I just flip these two pumps over, reconnect the hoses and reverse the wiring on my dash switches? (Instead of moving/relocating the hoses at the pumps?)

I don't want my pumps to die early because of water intrusion into the motors.

FYI, my new yellow impellers DO NOT pump water as fast as the original black impellers.

TX.X-30 fan
06-04-2008, 08:14 AM
Bump, does anyone know if there is an o ring on the ballast puppy. I saw none when I changer the impellers??

Thanks.