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BuoyChaser
04-17-2007, 05:34 PM
http://www.zerogps.com/

Zero-Off GPS speed control has the solution to the water skiing industry's search for a robust, no maintenance solution to consistent speed control.

With the leadership of World Champion Andy Mapple and his experience and industry knowledge, we have a product that allows the water skiing industry to go to reach standards not previously available. From quickly validating tournament records to no longer having to worry about wind speeds, the weights of your skiers, and passengers.

Zero-Off will meet your needs and exceed all of your expectations. Please ask for our products and look for us at your preferred Ski Boat OEM, as well as at coming tournaments and exhibitions.

Farmer Ted
04-17-2007, 05:40 PM
it would be nice to see some updated info on their webpage

east tx skier
04-17-2007, 05:41 PM
Booooo, no retrofit for anything 04 or older (or 05 that isn't TBW). :(

It would be nice not to have to worry about skier weight, crew weight, magnets, sensors, etc. though.

ilikeitglacy
04-17-2007, 06:30 PM
it will be nice not to feel any pull from the boat after the second wake, even though i got used to it...:rolleyes:

KnoxX2
04-17-2007, 07:08 PM
Dose this replace PP?

east tx skier
04-17-2007, 08:11 PM
Dose this replace PP?

Not technically until AWSA says it does.

Laurel_Lake_Skier
04-17-2007, 08:16 PM
I'm just looking through the new WaterSki magazine and Andy Mapple answers some questions on the Zero Off.

puck_11
04-19-2007, 10:08 AM
it would be nice to see some updated info on their webpage


It would be nice if they actually returned e-mails. Has anybody actually gotten a hold of this company?

Ric
04-19-2007, 10:23 AM
ok so I read the bit in wsm

it says that you hit the enter button when you pass the gates and hit it again on the exit gates.

states that it doesnt matter the distance between the buoys because they are simply coordinates... I'll buy the coordinates part but how do we be sure the coordinates are set properly? maybe the zerooff will also tell you if your gates are long or short?

east tx skier
04-19-2007, 10:31 AM
it says that you hit the enter button when you pass the gates and hit it again on the exit gates.


Don't you already have to do that when your smart timer false triggers?

Sounds like too much work for me.

BrianM
04-19-2007, 10:32 AM
The waypoint for the gates only have to be entered once for the site. After that no more button pushing except for speed.

I read that AWSA approved it. I think Perfect Pass is shaking in their boots. They are going to need to come up with a similar system to stay the leader. I don't see everyone with older boats running out and dropping $1500 plus the retrofit kit (when they come out) but I do see them taking over the new boat market. Such a simple system. Set the speed and go.

east tx skier
04-19-2007, 10:44 AM
The waypoint for the gates only have to be entered once for the site. After that no more button pushing except for speed.

I read that AWSA approved it. I think Perfect Pass is shaking in their boots. They are going to need to come up with a similar system to stay the leader. I don't see everyone with older boats running out and dropping $1500 plus the retrofit kit (when they come out) but I do see them taking over the new boat market. Such a simple system. Set the speed and go.

Hadn't heard that yet. I emailed them this morning as I couldn't find anything about it on the Speed Control Comitted page.

http://www.usawaterski.org/speedcontrol/index.html

Ric
04-19-2007, 10:52 AM
I have questions, but I am not negative to it

Ric
04-19-2007, 10:54 AM
Don't you already have to do that when your smart timer false triggers?

Sounds like too much work for me. I guess you do, but the way I read the zeroff, there won't be a need to reenter those coordinates, but rather my first thought is that we do have a need to verify the gates accuracy.

now, the PP timer sets itself to the gates each pass and then runs the pass based on rpm and time and if the gates are not the right distance apart, the time will be wrong, right?

sounds like zero off will use that one set of coordinates til you change them

I assume there will be ways to save multiple courses to your zero off

east tx skier
04-19-2007, 11:08 AM
I assume you drive through the entry gates slowly and hit the button. Then, you'd go to the end gates and hit it again. Is there no timer on this system to verify? I would assume they'd have that on there to verify record capable times like PP does.

Of course, once you set your gates, the system ought to be able to tell you approcimately how far those two points are apart. But, that would require an accuracy of within 4.26 feet or better (given that is the tolerance for the length of the course).

As far as saving various courses, if that's all it takes to set it up, why bother.

Ric
04-19-2007, 11:24 AM
I am certain that all of my questions have long been thought over and answered at zero off, but I'd like to have them answered... the comment in wsm was not altogether clear

MYMC
04-19-2007, 11:33 AM
The waypoint for the gates only have to be entered once for the site. After that no more button pushing except for speed.

I read that AWSA approved it. I think Perfect Pass is shaking in their boots. They are going to need to come up with a similar system to stay the leader. I don't see everyone with older boats running out and dropping $1500 plus the retrofit kit (when they come out) but I do see them taking over the new boat market. Such a simple system. Set the speed and go.
You can almost feel the shaking all the way from Canada!

Wonder what happens when the waypoints move? Current & wind effect the course and skier goes around the balls...this system has no way of knowing or compensating for that...WAAS enabled GPS is great for calculating ground speed and the system may be great at holding that speed but how do you know & control that time over distance if you don't know where the course begins and ends? Sure the speed will stay the same but the time to cover it will be effected by where the course IS in relation to where it WAS when you plotted the way points. A slalom score is counted only if you meet the times for your speed...tough to do if your speed control doesn't have the ability to know where and when the course begins and ends.

Ric
04-19-2007, 12:12 PM
well you articulated my waypoints question better than me
wsm says it doesnt matter :rolleyes:

Ric
04-19-2007, 12:12 PM
since everyone already has magnets, why not zero-off magnet sensors to validate waypoints? wait a minute, are we the research team or the damn consumers?

east tx skier
04-19-2007, 12:22 PM
You can almost feel the shaking all the way from Canada!

Wonder what happens when the waypoints move?

I'll bet Dr. Jim is concerned with that, too. 8p

MYMC
04-19-2007, 12:30 PM
since everyone already has magnets, why not zero-off magnet sensors to validate waypoints? wait a minute, are we the research team or the damn consumers?
Makes you wonder...

They are partially correct...the boat speed will (or should be) consistent 34.2 or 36 and the distance between entrance and exit should be within tolerance...so there is no need to measure it. However, entrance and exit gates are waypoints and if those waypoints move then the clock measuring the run will be off the amount of time it takes the boat/skier to make up that difference (positive or negative). Since the system is "dumb" and not looking for those changes it cannot take them into account even though the skier can and will.

To make all this “fool proof” the system should always look for the start and finish to keep the timing correct. Further WAAS itself uses ground based stations to correct for the errors in the system…why not have a way the system could “see” each gate and double check the timing through the course?

The reason behind all this is the consistent use of the low side of tolerance in tournaments particularly record capable ones. People have figured out how to make the PP system work to their advantage and USA WaterSki has caught on. The tolerances are tightening and using WAAS enabled GPS eliminates even more chances for running on the low side. However, IMHO some things were left off the table to make this “perfect”…as in Perfect Pass…hmm I wonder what they have in store for us?

Ric
04-19-2007, 12:34 PM
I'm interested.

I will want ten grand for the magnet sensor idea

Sodar
04-19-2007, 12:38 PM
You can almost feel the shaking all the way from Canada!

Wonder what happens when the waypoints move? Current & wind effect the course and skier goes around the balls...this system has no way of knowing or compensating for that...WAAS enabled GPS is great for calculating ground speed and the system may be great at holding that speed but how do you know & control that time over distance if you don't know where the course begins and ends? Sure the speed will stay the same but the time to cover it will be effected by where the course IS in relation to where it WAS when you plotted the way points. A slalom score is counted only if you meet the times for your speed...tough to do if your speed control doesn't have the ability to know where and when the course begins and ends.

Exactly! It seems like it would only work on a perfectly still lake with no wind or current. :confused:

BrianM
04-19-2007, 01:09 PM
If the speed control is able to maintain a set speed that is whithin AWSA tolerance it doesn't matter what the wind or current is (or the pull of the skier) as the boat is maintaining an exact speed regardless. The GPS tracks the speed and makes the necessary adjustments. It also doesn't matter if the course has made any movement from the original waypoints. The way I read it and understand it is that there is the ability to show the speed over time. So say it can show the speed for every 1/4 second of a run. If the speed at any given fraction of a second is 36 mph then the sum of the parts is going to be 36mph.

The whoole thing sounds like a much more user friendly mouse trap to me. Yeah PP works great but it requires a lot of tinkering to get it to run perfect times at different sites, with different conditions etc. Add to that the switch, KX, PX, magnets, sensors etc etc. The thing is kind of a pain in the arse.

I think Zero Off is the very near future. In the words of Ron Popeil "set it and forget it" The speed that is.



What about setup?
Simply go to the entrance gate and hit Enter, then you just blast down to the other end of the course, go through the exit gates, and hit Enter again. But it's not mapping the distance between the gates; it's setting two sets of coordinates. So now every time — whichever direction the boat comes — when it goes past those coordinates, it starts timing. It's measuring the speed across the water, not the speed between the two buoys, so it doesn't matter if the slalom course is long or short in tolerance.



Complete Tournment GPS Speed Control
- Tounment Ready
+ Slalom, Jump
+ Trick and Wake Board
+ Bouy and Course Timing
- Two GPS Antenna
- Course Mapping Memory
- Recallable Course Timing Memory

Ric
04-19-2007, 01:42 PM
It also doesn't matter if the course has made any movement from the original waypoints. The way I read it and understand it is that there is the ability to show the speed over time. So say it can show the speed for every 1/4 second of a run. If the speed at any given fraction of a second is 36 mph then the sum of the parts is going to be 36mph.. tell that to the skier........

MYMC
04-19-2007, 02:15 PM
If the speed control is able to maintain a set speed that is whithin AWSA tolerance it doesn't matter what the wind or current is (or the pull of the skier) as the boat is maintaining an exact speed regardless. The GPS tracks the speed and makes the necessary adjustments. It also doesn't matter if the course has made any movement from the original waypoints. The way I read it and understand it is that there is the ability to show the speed over time. So say it can show the speed for every 1/4 second of a run. If the speed at any given fraction of a second is 36 mph then the sum of the parts is going to be 36mph.

The whoole thing sounds like a much more user friendly mouse trap to me. Yeah PP works great but it requires a lot of tinkering to get it to run perfect times at different sites, with different conditions etc. Add to that the switch, KX, PX, magnets, sensors etc etc. The thing is kind of a pain in the arse.

I think Zero Off is the very near future. In the words of Ron Popeil "set it and forget it" The speed that is.
Wrong...all of it does matter. When free skiing it doesn't matter becasue the speed is all you are looking for. In a course you have a set time to run a specified distance...when do you want me to start the stop watch? Don't confuse the ability to hold speed with time. Because you have "fixed positions" for your start and end in the computer doesnt mean they stay fixed in reality. Water moves and so do slalom balls. WAAS GPS works because airports and buildings don't.

Look at my poorly drawn diagram and you tell me when you want the timer to start, remember the computer/speed control only knows the fixed points to start the timer...

Lastly WS Mag saying that "it doesnt matter if your course is long or short" is one of the more stupid things reported in a magazine that's real worth lies in it's keen ability to lie flat on a coffee table or floor.

east tx skier
04-19-2007, 02:28 PM
I'm out of my element to a degree here, but if you marked waypoints on each buoy comprising the entrance and exit gates---that is four buoys instead of two, could they not rig the system to essentially draw a line from entry buoy to entry buoy and from exit buoy to exit buoy. So the system recognizes that you crossed that line (instead of passing a point in space that may have moved). I know the course is going to move, but if it moves further than the gate is wide, I'm going to start looking for a guy working pulleys in the boat house.

BrianM
04-19-2007, 02:28 PM
Wrong...all of it does matter. When free skiing it doesn't matter becasue the speed is all you are looking for. In a course you have a set time to run a specified distance...

If the speed is locked in prior to the course entrance gates and if the speed remains accurate at all points in time then there is no need to time through the course at all. That is the mindset we have to get out of. The GPS is effectively constantly timing the boat. PP has to time through the course and set distances because it does not 'know' speed but only RPM.

east tx skier
04-19-2007, 02:32 PM
If the speed is locked in prior to the course and if the speed remains accurate at all points in time then there is no need to time through the course at all. That is the mindset we have to get out of. The GPS is effectively constantly timing the boat. PP has to time through the course because it does not 'know' speed but only RPM.

No wonder my speedo is never right.

I think you would still want times because we don't trust these machines. I can't even find my sunken course that I marked with a handheld GPS without grabbing the reference rope I have tied from the dock to the 3 ball gate. I know that the govt has allowed us to get a little more accurate, but I can't find anything on the range of error in this system.

With PP, we have the same problem if the course is blown one way or the other. But the time lets us know if it, that is distance, is in tolerance. Or maybe it's distance and speed, one, the other, or both? The current tolerance for the course is just over four feet. How much are these things moving?

MYMC
04-19-2007, 02:51 PM
If the speed is locked in prior to the course entrance gates and if the speed remains accurate at all points in time then there is no need to time through the course at all. That is the mindset we have to get out of. The GPS is effectively constantly timing the boat. PP has to time through the course and set distances because it does not 'know' speed but only RPM.
I understand what you are saying...but read the number of "IFs" you wrote and there is no way to check if this is accurate since you are eliminating the "check"...that is my point. Further you will need to re-write the rule book since it is all based on time and you have no way to check or measure it accurately with this system. Lastly, if this is how it will be approached (without time) then the length of the course doesn't matter...since all that matters is speed. Hey the way this is headed we should all be running 43 off next week!

BrianM
04-19-2007, 02:57 PM
I understand what you are saying...but read the number of "IFs" you wrote and there is no way to check if this is accurate since you are eliminating the "check"...that is my point. Further you will need to re-write the rule book since it is all based on time and you have no way to check or measure it accurately with this system.
I am not saying there are not a lot of ifs and AWSA is going to have to make some rule changes but they seem to like to do that anyway.

Lastly, if this is how it will be approached (without time) then the length of the course doesn't matter...since all that matters is speed. Hey the way this is headed we should all be running 43 off next week!
The length of the course won't matter for the boat to run accurate speeds. Obviously the dimenions will have to measure within tolerance for the skiers and boat path center line. :rolleyes:

Ric
04-19-2007, 03:20 PM
But you said it would not matter if the course had moved from it's original waypoints... Yes sir it would.

Brian, why set the waypoints for the gates at all if speed is all you're looking for?

I'd love to learn more about this system.




If the speed is locked in prior to the course entrance gates and if the speed remains accurate at all points in time then there is no need to time through the course at all. That is the mindset we have to get out of. The GPS is effectively constantly timing the boat. PP has to time through the course and set distances because it does not 'know' speed but only RPM.

BrianM
04-19-2007, 03:24 PM
I'd love to learn more about this system.

Me too!!!!

Ric
04-19-2007, 03:50 PM
Hell for all we know it's not only PP that's quaking but industry giants like indmar... Remember how much trouble was caused going to throttle by wire a bit too soon? I know dealers remember

MYMC
04-19-2007, 03:52 PM
Since there are times I know more than I am supposed to let on I don't since the people trust me. Here is what I can tell you about the Zero Off system...
1) The system will require an ECM swap not a reprogram but a real swap to their own (Zero OFF) ECM...it is made by an independent company so your Indmar warranty just went void.
2) The timer is an issue.
3) The system has proven to be a problem with jump...you need the boat to accelerate on the ramp not slow down and hold speed.

Perfect Pass is not asleep on this...trust me.

Ric
04-19-2007, 03:57 PM
Bingo .

JohnE
04-19-2007, 04:02 PM
Since I have never used PP or GPS in any form, the only part of this thread I think I understand is post #35. Game/Set/Match.:)
I think.:D

BrianM
04-19-2007, 04:02 PM
Perfect Pass is not asleep on this...trust me.
I'm sure they aren't. I would just like to see some competition in the speed control market. PP is good but not great. Unless there is some additional competition they don't have a lot of incentive to make big improvement to the system. Yeah they finally came out with a better display (Accuski had this years ago) Yeah they change the chip every year to make the pull 'better' but this means yet another upgrade at a cost of about $100 when all is said and done. Only time will tell if there is going to be a another competitor in the market. At the very least it is forcing PP to do a little more agressive R and D and that is a good thing.

east tx skier
04-19-2007, 04:09 PM
ECM, what's that? ;)

Can I keep my carburetor?

Maybe I should just drop a few hundred on a Lavorsi GPS Speedo and use the PP as timer.

/I kid.

MYMC
04-19-2007, 05:10 PM
Let's see Perfect Pass Pro in a new PS197 is $1180 (MSRP) and this "system" is $1500. Knowing that Perfect Pass is not sitting still (they haven't in the past just ask AccuSki) I would guess that their next system will cost as much or more (industry proven leader upcharge). Then the complaint will be about how much all this costs...and you are already complaining about a $100 update.

What was the old line from the song..."you can't please everyone so you got to please yourself".

Ric
04-19-2007, 05:11 PM
I think mike just told somebody to go please themself

Jesus_Freak
04-20-2007, 06:32 AM
Since there are times I know more than I am supposed to let on I don't since the people trust me.

;) Have I heard this before?;)

I can imagine various course movements relative to the earth (assuming the techtonic plate under it does not move substantially during a pass). Some involve the entire course (rotations and translations), while some involve ball:ball relative movements. Some would cause "problems" for both systems, while others cause problems for one or the other. This is interesting, and I also look forward to learning more.

east tx skier
04-24-2007, 02:13 PM
I read that AWSA approved it.

It is not approved yet. This is the email I received this morning from AWSA.

"We are still waiting on some documentation from the Zero Off group. They are finalizing the manual. Once that is completed and approved, it sounds like the towboat and speed control committee is going to approve it. It is not official, and there are still lose ends to tie up…but it looks good up and to record tournament level."

BrianM
04-24-2007, 02:39 PM
It is not approved yet. This is the email I received this morning from AWSA.

"We are still waiting on some documentation from the Zero Off group. They are finalizing the manual. Once that is completed and approved, it sounds like the towboat and speed control committee is going to approve it. It is not official, and there are still lose ends to tie up…but it looks good up and to record tournament level."

Well there you go.

MYMC
04-24-2007, 02:46 PM
It is not approved yet. This is the email I received this morning from AWSA.

"We are still waiting on some documentation from the Zero Off group. They are finalizing the manual. Once that is completed and approved, it sounds like the towboat and speed control committee is going to approve it. It is not official, and there are still lose ends to tie up…but it looks good up and to record tournament level."
If they respond to USA WaterSki as quickly as they respond to people that have emailed inquiries, I would start holding my breath now:rolleyes:

BrianM
04-24-2007, 02:52 PM
If they respond to USA WaterSki as quickly as they respond to people that have emailed inquiries, I would start holding my breath now:rolleyes:

Mike,

Just kind of wonder why you are so down on Zero Off. Are you an investor in PP? :rolleyes:

MYMC
04-24-2007, 03:23 PM
No, but I have worked with Randy and Gary at Perfect Pass since 1997. I am loyal to them as they have never (underlined) let me or any other customer (MasterCraft of otherwise) that I know of down. Their tech support has been a model by which other companies could learn a valuable lesson. By contrast I have seen NOTHING from Zero Off but hyperbole and marketing spin.

I am a loyal person and admire that quality in others...I have never been one to "fuss" about the settings in Perfect Pass, as a matter of fact I appreciate the ability to tune the pull. To be blunt there is nothing about this system that is an upgrade or better than what I have now. Besides, I know what Perfect Pass is working on so I'll wait and "dance with the girl that brought me".

Lastly, I cannot even imagine the posts that would light up this and other chat boards if Perfect Pass responded to questions the way Zero Off has (or hasn't actually). Funny what people will put up with...

pilot02
04-24-2007, 03:59 PM
"it looks good up and to record tournament level."

OK am I the only one seeing that this is NOT going to be a Record capable approved system with up and to being the key words.... Sounds to me like they're only going to allow it to be used in Class C and fun tournaments...

east tx skier
04-24-2007, 04:05 PM
Their tech support has been a model by which other companies could learn a valuable lesson.

You can say that again! They are nothing short of phenominal in that respect. I've had ocassion to call them with questions and it's hard to imagine a better combination of friendly and helpful.

east tx skier
04-24-2007, 04:09 PM
OK am I the only one seeing that this is NOT going to be a Record capable approved system with up and to being the key words.... Sounds to me like they're only going to allow it to be used in Class C and fun tournaments...

I didn't read it that way. I initially read it as "up to and including." But I see that that is not what it says.

My question to them was "Is it currently approved." If it was going to get limited approval, I don't think he would have let me in on that little nugget as I'm just an random AWSA member emailing them. But who knows? If/when it is approved, I'm sure we'll know the extent of it.

skisix@38
04-24-2007, 04:25 PM
I'm with ya Mike... Further to that though, does anyone believe that PP is going to let a competitor steal the rest of their bidness? No way! If a new company can do it then you can bet that PP has figured out a way to do the same thing and they ARE APPROVED. This is movement that will stir up the industry and as consumers we may receive the benefit of that competition.


No, but I have worked with Randy and Gary at Perfect Pass since 1997. I am loyal to them as they have never (underlined) let me or any other customer (MasterCraft of otherwise) that I know of down. Their tech support has been a model by which other companies could learn a valuable lesson. By contrast I have seen NOTHING from Zero Off but hyperbole and marketing spin.

I am a loyal person and admire that quality in others...I have never been one to "fuss" about the settings in Perfect Pass, as a matter of fact I appreciate the ability to tune the pull. To be blunt there is nothing about this system that is an upgrade or better than what I have now. Besides, I know what Perfect Pass is working on so I'll wait and "dance with the girl that brought me".

Lastly, I cannot even imagine the posts that would light up this and other chat boards if Perfect Pass responded to questions the way Zero Off has (or hasn't actually). Funny what people will put up with...

MYMC
04-24-2007, 04:49 PM
I didn't read it that way. I initially read it as "up to and including." But I see that that is not what it says.

My question to them was "Is it currently approved." If it was going to get limited approval, I don't think he would have let me in on that little nugget as I'm just an random AWSA member emailing them. But who knows? If/when it is approved, I'm sure we'll know the extent of it.
Wondered when someone would notice that...it was my understanding that it has not been okayed for use in anything above a class "C" tourney. Hey, that means you could use your 211 to pull the event and equip it with Zero Off... (hopefully the sarcasim isnt wasted).

Nothing against Zero Off or Correct Craft but I have not seen many of either pulling tournaments around here.:confused:

MYMC
04-24-2007, 04:50 PM
I'm with ya Mike... Further to that though, does anyone believe that PP is going to let a competitor steal the rest of their bidness? No way! If a new company can do it then you can bet that PP has figured out a way to do the same thing and they ARE APPROVED. This is movement that will stir up the industry and as consumers we may receive the benefit of that competition.
You back in the water yet, or is it still cold out there?

Ric
04-24-2007, 05:20 PM
Lastly, I cannot even imagine the posts that would light up this and other chat boards if Perfect Pass responded to questions the way Zero Off has (or hasn't actually). Funny what people will put up with... it's almost like a counter-culture

BrianM
04-24-2007, 08:08 PM
I'm with ya Mike... Further to that though, does anyone believe that PP is going to let a competitor steal the rest of their bidness? No way! If a new company can do it then you can bet that PP has figured out a way to do the same thing and they ARE APPROVED. This is movement that will stir up the industry and as consumers we may receive the benefit of that competition.
Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself although I think I kind of tried a while back in this thread.

I have had nothing but good customer service and functionality with my PP. For me and training purposes it is dialed in on my boat and home course and works great. The people that I regularly ski with settings are all programmed in so just a couple of key stokes and we are good to go. So until I buy my next 'new' boat I am not going to be changing to anything. Just want to see competition.

Competition especially in the waterski market is good.

east tx skier
07-12-2007, 10:35 AM
From USA Water Ski. Apparently, there will need to be backup magnetic timing for a record to be approved with Zero Off for 2007.

"Zero Off will be permitted to be used in any American Water Ski Association tournament and the sanction will be changed to include "X" for experimental. For the scores to be eligible for consideration as a record, to be included on the Rankings List, or achieve a rating to be used for 2007 Nationals qualification, the tournament must include in the scorebook the times reported by the primary speed control system (ZO in this case) AND must separately record times as indicated by an alternative backup magnetic timing system."

MYMC
07-12-2007, 01:02 PM
From USA Water Ski. Apparently, there will need to be backup magnetic timing for a record to be approved with Zero Off for 2007.

"Zero Off will be permitted to be used in any American Water Ski Association tournament and the sanction will be changed to include "X" for experimental. For the scores to be eligible for consideration as a record, to be included on the Rankings List, or achieve a rating to be used for 2007 Nationals qualification, the tournament must include in the scorebook the times reported by the primary speed control system (ZO in this case) AND must separately record times as indicated by an alternative backup magnetic timing system."
You know every now and then it is almost like I know what I'm talking about;)

Ryan
07-12-2007, 01:31 PM
From USA Water Ski. Apparently, there will need to be backup magnetic timing for a record to be approved with Zero Off for 2007.

"Zero Off will be permitted to be used in any American Water Ski Association tournament and the sanction will be changed to include "X" for experimental. For the scores to be eligible for consideration as a record, to be included on the Rankings List, or achieve a rating to be used for 2007 Nationals qualification, the tournament must include in the scorebook the times reported by the primary speed control system (ZO in this case) AND must separately record times as indicated by an alternative backup magnetic timing system."

That's nice for those choosing to upgrade from PP, they won't have to throw PP away - they'll need it. Who needs an old analog speedometer anyway?

bigmac
07-12-2007, 01:46 PM
You know every now and then it is almost like I know what I'm talking about;)Any idea how long before Perfect Pass will be releasing their version - GPS-supplemented paddlewheel-based device? That will be my next upgrade, not Zero-Off.


.

FMTXskier
10-29-2007, 12:07 PM
ZeroOff GPS installed. There was a 10-15mph head/tail all day. They had a radio on the starting dock, and all of the times were never more than 2 one-hundreds off…every pass. This thing doesn’t require magnets. It gives all ball timing. However, it doesn’t appear that you need all ball timing because it was always completely dialed in. It had 3 different skier modes (A, B, & C). This is similar to +/neutral/- on PerfectPass. When compared to the Perfect Pass timer in the boat (I think AWSA rules mandate a timer seperate from the ZeroOff timer), the beeps indicating the magnet hits were almost identical to the beeps for the bouy intervals for the ZeroOff. Both timing systems were always w/in 1 100th of each other. I've read plenty of negative comments about this sytems, but I was sold after skiing a tourney behind it. Also, for practice, supposedly you can increment the speed by 1 tenth of a MPH...wow. I do the same thing with the skier weight on PP, but it is always a guess when you are trying to increment more than 1/10 of an mph to practice a new line length.

bigmac
10-29-2007, 12:36 PM
Stargazer oughta make for an uphill battle for Zero Off. As Mike mentioned, customer service is not their long suit.

MYMC
10-29-2007, 02:32 PM
Ski it you'll love it...PP did it again! (although I'm not crazy about the name).

DooSPX
10-29-2007, 02:45 PM
Do they have a Retro-Fit out for the Star Gazer project yet?
if they do, lookout... its going on my Prostar!

east tx skier
10-29-2007, 02:47 PM
Do they have a Retro-Fit out for the Star Gazer project yet?
if they do, lookout... its going on my Prostar!

According to what I read, it should be going on OEM boats later this year and be available to the general public by February 2008. Retrofit Kit for wired boats, if you already have the wide gauge, is $400.

G-man
10-29-2007, 03:40 PM
I say give both products at least a year or two to see what shakes out. It's nice to have the latest product but this one isn't going to help my skiing.

JohnE
10-30-2007, 07:32 PM
The more I read that name "Star Gazer", the worse it sounds. They should really do change it now before it's too late. Aside from that, good for them with the new system.

east tx skier
10-30-2007, 07:39 PM
The display will still say perfect pass. I can live with the antenna and master module saying dog poop on them if it works as advertised.

BrianM
10-30-2007, 07:42 PM
The display will still say perfect pass. I can live with the antenna and master module saying dog poop on them if it works as advertised.
Actually the displays say StarGazer real big at the top. Although I would imagine you could get a Mastercraft (or other manufacturer;)) specific display that probably wouldn't say it so big.. http://www.perfectpass.com/download/stargazer.pdf

east tx skier
10-30-2007, 09:05 PM
Either that, or for those who have the ng display, we'll just use our old ones if/when we upgrade.

BrianM
10-30-2007, 10:49 PM
Either that, or for those who have the ng display, we'll just use our old ones if/when we upgrade.
Ah yes. I forgot that you didn't need to change the display if you already had ng.

6ballsisall
10-30-2007, 10:55 PM
Actually the displays say StarGazer real big at the top. Although I would imagine you could get a Mastercraft (or other manufacturer;)) specific display that probably wouldn't say it so big.. http://www.perfectpass.com/download/stargazer.pdf


LOL!!!!!!!!!!!;)

Ric
10-31-2007, 08:57 AM
The display will still say perfect pass. I can live with the antenna and master module saying dog poop on them if it works as advertised. so you have that going for you..... which is nice....

east tx skier
10-31-2007, 10:26 AM
It currently says wakeboard pro on it. Stargazer sounds better than wakeboard to me. ;)

Ric
12-18-2007, 08:13 PM
That sounds awfully , well.... Gazer.

BuoyChaser
12-18-2007, 08:32 PM
i must have been sleeping at the wheel, just stumbled upon the new system, WOW!!!has anyone tried out the $400 upgrade that has an MCX engine and multi-line display?!?

http://perfectpass.com/perfect_pass_whats_new.html

BrianM
12-19-2007, 09:20 AM
i must have been sleeping at the wheel, just stumbled upon the new system, WOW!!!has anyone tried out the $400 upgrade that has an MCX engine and multi-line display?!?

http://perfectpass.com/perfect_pass_whats_new.html

Not out yet. Upgrades will not be available until February 2008

BuoyChaser
12-19-2007, 09:24 AM
Not out yet. Upgrades will not be available until February 2008
i've even heard as late as March, so who will be the first to provide feedback on how well it works?!?i would assume it has been testing or in testing somewhere right now?!?

BrianM
12-19-2007, 09:30 AM
I think MYMC has already skied behind it.

Ski it you'll love it...PP did it again! (although I'm not crazy about the name).

BuoyChaser
12-19-2007, 09:40 AM
what is the deal with Zero Off making an exclusive with CC???seems like a bad move, plus the $2,190 "UPGRADE" for MCX engine's is quite rediculous, compared to the estimated $400 upgrade with PerfectPass and the retrofit kit...

http://zerogps.com/shop/index.php?cPath=4_7

BrianM
12-19-2007, 11:13 AM
what is the deal with Zero Off making an exclusive with CC???seems like a bad move, plus the $2,190 "UPGRADE" for MCX engine's is quite rediculous, compared to the estimated $400 upgrade with PerfectPass and the retrofit kit...

http://zerogps.com/shop/index.php?cPath=4_7

The entire ECM has to be replaced with the Zero Off. I think that is going to be a nail in the coffin for Zero Off.

BuoyChaser
12-19-2007, 11:17 AM
The entire ECM has to be replaced with the Zero Off. I think that is going to be a nail in the coffin for Zero Off.
especially since ECM's run $1100 on the MCX, i believe...

so basically Zero Off is for new boats only in that case, that won't last long...we'll see it for a couple years then it will probably fade away into the sunset...at least if anything it brought the technology to the table for PP, a little competition is always good for the industry!!!