Can I go direct to mfg for service?

[AirJunky]

Last fall I found out there are a 1/2 dozen updates for the ECM available for my '94 PS 205. So I pulled it out this weekend & was going to take in to the local "dealer", only to find out their closed for the winter. Some dealer. It was in the high 50s & sunny this weekend. Wonder how many people were doing boat stuff here while they were gone.

Anyway, does anyone have any mfg direct people I can deal with on the ECM?

Thanks

[Lance]

Not sure about ECM stuff but I once tried to get some parts directly from MasterCraft but they refused (I guess they feel they need to support their dealer network by directing sales that route despite the fact that in many cases the dealers do very little to support their customers). The best MC did after quite of bit of talking was give me the name of Rambo marine. I would prefer to deal with MC directly but Rambo is far better than many dealers so I guess it was a half solution.

Give em a call.. you won't regret it.



Lance

[Thrall]

Air Junky,
You may be able to get Indmar to update your ECM. Not sure if all the dealers can do this anyway. Some may need to send it in to get done.
When I had issues w/ my ECM on my 96, I dealt w/ Indmar directly on some troubleshooting.
I spoke to Larry Englebert 800-238-7112.

[JimN]

Most manufacturers have a dealer only sales network, so no, they won't sell to end-users. MC and Indmar can recal the ECM, or can arrange for it to be done. You'll just need to send it in. They won't do all of the recals, just the most recent one. It doesn't need all of them. Call customer service to get the info.

The dealers are supposed to keep up with the technical training in order to A) not waste their time and your money when diagnosing problems, B) make the highest labor rate possible based on their tech's points from training and C) be as efficient as possible so they can stay in business. This means that, if they have been a dealer for any length of time, they should be able to do a recal. It's not that hard. Last I heard, they have gone to PC diagnostics and they should have a laptop for this, as well as recals.

Your dealer is closed for the whole winter? What kind of crap is that? Are they in the mountains, buried in snow or do they just like prolonged vacations? The dealers here in the midwest, where it snows like crazy and gets a lot colder than WA, only tend to close the week between Christmas and New Year.

[ski_king]

I had bought a few parts direct from MasterCraft back in 92, but the next time I tried, they refered me to a dealer.
The dealer I bought if from was long gone and the closest dealer wasnt't any help at all as they didn't sell boats back in 82 and knew nothing about the older models. I haven't been back to that dealer since.

I was buying all my parts (PCM) at the CorrectCraft dealer until I found Discount Inboard Marine. As far as I am concerned they are my dealer.

I am not sure any dealer could help much at this point as I am sure most parts are no available any longer.

[AirJunky]

Thanks guys. Yea, this dealer's service dept isn't open at all during December or January. And talking to others in the area, he doesn't have a ton of fans because of things like that.

Since I'm not really "buying" anything, I figured I'd cut the middle man & send the ECM directly to the people who would end up doing the upgrade anyway. I've talked with 2 dealers & was told that only the factory would do the ECM upgrades.

Thanks Thrall. I'll give Indmar a call tomorrow.

[JimN]

The dealers don't want to do a recal? WOW! These dealers aren't trying very hard to make a customer out of you. Indmar's site has a dealer dropdown and if you click over it, it shows Recals, Technical Training Schedule, etc. The recal programs are downloaded by the dealer/servicer and installed in their computer. Then, they connect their computer to the boat(preferably in the boat, since the recal can be done through the diagnostic port) and dump it. Most dealers probably don't have a special harness for bench recals, though. That may be the reason they send the ECM's in.

FYI, Indmar has a facility in Corona, CA.

[Kell]

AirJunky,

I know the dealer you're referring to as I also use the same dealer (given its the only MC dealer in the inland northwest). I had an ECM update done last summer, and the dealer had to send it directly to Indmar for the update, so based upon my experience, it seems that the dealer does not have the necessary equipment JimN is referring to. This is purely an assumption on my part, as I would think that they would have a laptop to update the ECM on a 99 Maristar, but perhaps there is another reason why. By the way, the guy they sent it to at Indmar was Larry. At the time I was trying to trouble shoot a cold stall issue, and not knowing that the dealer sent the ECM to Indmar, I called Indmar's customer support and ended up talking to Larry (powerplant enginerring dept.) about my issue. Low and behold, he stated that he had my ECM on his bench and was testing and updating it as we spoke. Can't say enough nice things about Larry and his help. This does not answer your question directly, but I thought you may be interested in my experience. Take care.

[JimN]

Kell- I remember you having the cold-start issue. Did they recal it under warranty? I don't remember that part.

Either way, once the update is done, it should be a bit crisper.

[Kell]

I don't believe my ECM was under warranty, and the dealer didn't offer that up to me at the time. I just assumed, that a 99 ECM would be out of the waranty period. Larry told me that my ECM was two generations behind, so he updated it to the most recent generation. The actual update by Indmar, if I recall correctly, was appox $50 bucks. At the time I had the ECM sent in, I had a large family reunion where I was the only boat available for water skiing, etc.., so I paid a premium for express shipping and express calabration. The total bill was around $120, which included the remove and install. Even if what I paid is excessive, it was worth it to me to have the boat running for the reunion, and the cold stall issues have disappeared completly. More importantly, the boat runs so much smoother at idle and underway. The specific issue I had is when I would back the boat off the trailer (engine cold), as soon as I put it into reverse it would stall. This did not happen when the engine was warm. But on the ramp, it was not always practical to wait for the engine to warm up to operating temp when others were waiting to launch.

[AirJunky]

Thanks Kell,
I'll let you all know what Larry has to say about the ECM update on a '94 PS. Since I pulled it myself & will send it directly to him, and I'm not really under any time restrictions, I suspect it'll be a bit less.
I appreciate the tips though. Sounds like as a result, I'll be going to the guy in the know.

[kpickett]

This may be a rather dumb newbie question - but should I be worried about getting my ECM updated, too? Is this a common maintenance task? I've also got a '94, with the LT-1. Are there advantages to having it updated?

[east tx skier]

To extend on what JimN said, Indmar has offered to sell me a carb directly at one point. So they are willing, but at least in the case of a carb, it was $$$$.

[aprgriggs]

Thanks guys. Yea, this dealer's service dept isn't open at all during December or January. And talking to others in the area, he doesn't have a ton of fans because of things like that.



wow, how to the get a boat made ready when they sell one...Do they close the sales department too?

[JimN]

kpickett- to find out if your ECM has been updated, call MC directly and have the boat hull ID, motor S/N and the ECM S/N ready. They will have any warranty updates in their records and the original dealer name, so if anything was done out of warranty, you can call them about that, too. If it has been to several dealers for out of warranty service, MC won't have a record unless they needed warranty verification as additional work was performed.

[AirJunky]

Funny thing is, sales is open. It's only service thats closed for 2 months. Great money maker, I'm guessing.

Kpicket, if your not having any issues, don't fix it. Sounds like Kell was having a cold stall problem when backing off the trailer. I'm having a hot start problem, on a hot day. If we just idle around at low speed & then cut the engine, it won't restart for about 20 or 30 minutes. Turns over fine, then at some point starts right up like it never had an issue. I'm getting gas in the throat, but no spark.

I talked with Larry this morning. He said that he didn't think I'd see any benefit from an ECM update in this problem. He said there is a 2nd coolant temp sensor that only sends to the ECM. He thought that it sounds like the ECM was getting bad info from that sensor in my case. I guess it's like a $20 part. So maybe I'll try swapping that sensor out this spring. Oh, and he said the upgrade is $45.

[JimN]

AirJunky- the coolant tremp sensor you are looking for has 2 wires on it. One yellow, one black. If you have a multi-meter, remove the sensor and measure the resistance cold. Then put it in boiling water and measure it again. If you can attach the probes while the motor runs(Don't just jam wires into the back of the plug- use T pins so the weatherproof seal isn't damaged), you can watch the resistance drop. It should drop smoothly.

What is the air temp when you have the hot start issue?

[AirJunky]

Thanks Jim, I'll look for that sensor this evening. I see the problem usually on hot days (over 80 or 85) after running the boat at idle speed for a few minutes or more..... probably about the hottest that motor gets.

[JimN]

Do you have the LT-1? If you do, first make sure the oil cooler is clear and the impeller is OK, then look at the small bleeder hoses going to the intake manifold from the exhaust manifolds and make sure they aren't clogged. Otherwise, if the temp starts to climb during idle, put it in neutral and rev it up. Sometimes, air gets into the bleeders and the cooling water can't go past, sometimes debris clogs them. Also, I will assume that you have seen the posts about the thermostats on LT-1 motors and that one should have small holes in it.

[Thrall]

Air Junky, is your boat a 350 throttle body EFI, or a LT-1?
Had a similar problem w/ mine (you can read about it all in the Archives on the old site). Appeared to be the same type of problem except it got gradually worse over time and also more frequent the more heat soaked the engine was on a particular day. Spent alot of diagnostic time (myself and the dealer) to no avail. Turned out the Fuel Pump Driver (part of the ECM) was bad and wasn't supplying a strong enough signal to the pump relay to trigger the pump.
I'd suggest, after you replace the temp sender, if this does not cure it, have the ECM tested before going further. I spent way more than $45 worth of time and $$ to find out it was something I couldn't fix.
I also have some EFI diagnostics procedures that Andre sent me, for TBI and MPI. They are scanned, but readable. Email me if you want me to email them to you.
Good luck

[AirJunky]

I have the 350 TBI. Sounds like I'll give Thrall an email......

I have noticed that if I'd rev the motor up a couple of times, the boat seemed to start fine. I wasn't sure if it was just me or if it really worked.

[André]

Had problems with cold start when i bought the boat Prostar 94 TBI.The temp sensor was telling the ECM that the engine was warm and the Idle Air Control (equivalent to a choke on a carb engine...i think) wasn't positionning properly for a cold start.
Maybe your problem could be the opposite...A new automotive temp sensor solve my problem.
The troobleshoothing diagrams that i emailed Thrall were really digital pix from a Mastercraft EFI manual.Sorry no scanner and for the moment ,the camera is currently with her mom in sunny Panama while i'm here in a - 25 f temp...
Will look in my manual but i think one thing you could do (Please wait from earing it from somebody like Jim before testing ,ICBW) is when it happens,unplug the temp sensor and the ECM will detect a fault and put a preset value for the engine temp.
I'm out of my league on this one but something like that...
Good luck!

[JimN]

Getting back to the resistance of the coolant temp sensor, at 100 C (212 F) the sensor should read approximately 177 ohms. At -40 C/F, it sould be close to 100700 ohms.

Since this is a hot start issue, I wouldn't discount the possibility of a loose wire. The insulation becomes soft and the wires can sag once they get warm. Specifically, look at the rear of the motor at the point where the ground wires are attached.

If you have access to a code reader or scan tool, try to see if it has any stored codes. There aren't many that will keep it from starting when it's hot. An open coolant temp sensor will just dump a lot of gas in since it makes the ECM think it's really cold. If it's shorted, you'll have RPM reduction mode at all speeds and it'll be almost impossible to start when the motor is cold. Loose wires, flakey fuses and corroded terminals will make it act oddly at various times. Remove each of the three relays and inspect the terminals in the harness plug and on the relay's tabs. Pull each fuse and see if there is any corrosion or if the filament is damaged, too. Clean your flame arrestor.